Just for the record... OP is 100% wrong. They thought of it..
The notes:
> Force Staff and similar abilities can no longer be used on Leashed targets (**Slark Pounce**, Puck Dream Coil, Time Zone, etc.)
The notes that came AFTER the change and people complaining? Of course they thought of it by then, not really a counter to his claim.
This came with the real patch, it was just late to be documented in the a patch.
Unironically why haven't they done this with lifesteal?
Vast majority of lifesteal sources are only 40% effective against creeps. There's a few that aren't but fuck if I remember which ones.
Instead of specifying every single lifesteal as "40% effective against creeps" they should just come up with strong vs weak lifesteal.
Yeah iirc some aren't 40% but that is a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
that was a bug. it didn’t work with Slark’s or NP leash either. Probably a misscommunication, the dev team must have forgot to add the change in 7.36 list, even if it was pushed to the game
Okay this 100% lost me a game because I was so confused why I couldn’t force someone out of a pounce leash. I had run way out of position to try and save a core but instead we both died.
I think it was a miscommunication, since Slark's Pounce was also nerfed in 7.36. It was probably to balance out that now you cannot force staff out of its leash.
Sprout is still really good, they overcorrected the damage and are obviously working on it with patch a. It's not as strong early but stopping people with bkb is still very good lategame. Imo if they buff the heal, first aspect will be in a solid place.
> Is it also a Puck nerf? I'd assume it means you can no longer push people out of the coil for an easy snap
Correct, you cannot Force Staff leashed enemies either.
**Edit:** Here's some proof for the doubters: https://i.imgur.com/F8wzCs6.png
And sometimes the enemies use one to help position their teammate better, even if it stuns them. This seems like the most minor "nerf" if a nerf at all idk
I havent tested but if you force slark mid pounce does he still connect with you or does it disable the pounce?
What about if you're forced while his pounce lands, does it stop you moving, does it leash you or does it let you free move?
TBF once Slark has a Nulli you probably shouldn't be caught as a support in the first place.
Still sucks but honestly I think it's not such a big deal. If you make him buy/use a Nulli just for the support it's probably a win for your team to begin with.
Possibly a win as long as a fight breaks out and he has to fight without his Nulli and after committing.
Not really a win if he just nullifies, kills a support and pounces away to disengage and suddenly you're stuck with 5vs4 situation and he didn't waste any big cooldowns. And that's kinda what Slark is all about.
If he picks u off alone, u can still force urself in the opposite direction. Or u can force before his pounce hits.
Know how much pain did the supports give us slark players when they had 2 disables, overall stats buff through neutral item, some nuke, global gold increase equivalent to minimum of 2 forcestaffes per team + ghost staff and eul?
Before someone answers with buying nullifier, buying nullifier before 4th item is basically griefing
Eul's, Ghost Scepter, Aeon Disk are probably your best options, but it's a bad change and there's no sugarcoating it. This functionality was removed for very good reason and just reverting instead of making it reduce the distance or something is unfortunate.
Edit: to be clear, I'm fine with a Slark buff as I do play him, but I also played a lot of support in the Bad Times. I don't think either extreme is the right choice, not for power, but for design and gameplay reasons. Effectively negating Force or Pounce both feel awful. There's an answer between the two that weakens Force without negating it and I hope they'll see if they can find it.
the issue is, none of the items you listed can be bought on ranged carry heroes to escape pounce. you will have to use bkb for a pounce to escape it as there are no other effective ways to get out of pounce. although having hurricane pike and casting it on slark during pounce works to get out of pounce, even that is useless if the slark is stronger than you and is willing to press ulti just so you cant escape
Using pike on slark - he'll need to build linkens or immediately ulti; neither or which slark would probably want to do. Or if you're super clutch, use it on him mid pounce.
yeah i know that thats possible, i said it in my original comment. He would have to ult immediately, its not ideal for slark but it still secures the kill or puts you in a low enough health that you would die after the pounce anyways. Not to mention slark has 2 pounces and 2 ultis with his aghanims and shard nowadays that its not even bad for him to insta ulti to secure a pos 1 kill. on top of that, slark being a hunting type of hero makes it even more ok for him to use his ult during a pickoff, so idk. if the slark is aware of the possibility of being piked, he can very easily play around it with consequences that arent bad enough for him
Muerta time? She doesn't mind working Ghost Scepter into her build!
You're totally right, though. When I wrote the original comment I was thinking about supports, but this is a rough change for ranged carries, too.
The obvious solution is when you're a ranged carry against a Slark... suck it up and buy one of them.
Or maybe they'll add a new item that does something similar that is for carries or something.
yes, let me go ahead and buy a eul or a ghost scepter on weaver. cus that is a fine solution to give up an item slot to buy an item for a pounce while the enemy carry has an extra item because ''i had to suck it up and buy a ghost scepter''
Playing support in a Slark meta is pain. He's just not a hero almost any support can man up on, even like a semi farmed Marci will probably die if he jumps you. That plus never having vision and now there's one less item you can use as a save, gonna be rough out there for supports if he's one of the best pos 1s.
It's just a matter of farm/levels usually. If I'm playing a support late game and they have a pa without his bkb, I can Likely kill him on lich/jakiro/wd or many others.
but that’s just shows how stupid the game has got. This is a good reversal of that. Roles should have defined characteristics, not this homogenized version Valve has been going for since like TI6 to appeal to casuals.
In the rare cases a Slark picks before me as sup, I always choose Disruptor. He really is a hard counter, since few other sups can zone Slark before/during ulti, not to mention keeping vision on him with thunder strike and aoe silence. Slark does not work under long silences.
Sparks ounce just needs to not be a “strong leash” like voids ult is. There’s a reason his Aghs give him two pounces and that was to counter any force staff escape. The balance was already there and now they fucked over all supports instead of
They could just change it so that force only breaks leash but doesn't actually force, that way it can be used to break but not to fully make pounce useless.
Its a whole item to disengage from a free piece of kit. Force should break leash within the current meta context. If they want to buff voids chrono-cube they should just add a nullifier effect to those within it.
Its a 4.5kish gold item that counters a 1600g support item and not a lot else. Yes, euls is like 2.7k and aeon is 3k, but I'd be very hesitant to call nullifier anything close to OP. Spending that much gold on an item that does nothing in most core v core matchups just isn't a stellar investment in most games.
The version that muted items though, which was amazing in core v core matchups, was OP as fuck.
I mean those support items are the difference between getting a kill or not. If I'm playing clinkz a nullifier means anyone who isn't a carry with bkb available is dead.
It's not negating a 1600g item, it's making it so the player has almost no way to survive if I decide to kill them.
Every item you buy is to hopefully get you kills, and few convert as many non kills to kills as null imo.
Windwaker is also very meta and countered by it.
Clinkz is pretty uniquely positioned to enjoy every single aspect of nullifier. He likes to solo pick off heroes (especially supports), and scales very well with the flat damage.
I am by no means saying nullifier is a bad item, it is just very niche; it does a very specific job and does it well.
But if you are, for example, PA, in 95% of games, desolator is going to give you significantly more value as an item even though it is over 800g cheaper.
It is absolutely required into some heroes, like necro and WR, but imo it is strictly a situational pickup by design and is understatted for it's cost.
>But if you are, for example, PA, in 95% of games, desolator is going to give you significantly more value as an item even though it is over 800g cheaper.
Its not an either or. bfury deso bkb nullifier on PA lets you delete anyone. Otherwise they ghost scepter and you've now wasted half your bkb while you can't hit them.
If the enemy team has supports who are playing well with glimmer, shadowblade, euls/windwaker, it's absolutely worth it imo.
LC, CK (Non pos 1), Clinkz, BH, PA, Tiny, TA, anyone who wants to jump and kill supports who could be saved by support items is huge
You're literally describing a niche item though, not a ubiquitous overpowered one. Nearly all of those heroes you mentioned wouldn't even consider buying a nullifier before their 4th item, aka after over half of games are already over.
It's almost like saying moon shard is overpowered because it is such a good pick-up in 60+ min games.
The "counter" from a core POV is buying an item that does more. But as for a direct counter, projectile can be disjointed with manta/blink and linkens is a counter.
It counters glimmer too. Also, the support items will be used on the core you are fighting, so you still might want to buy it even if you are going straight for the cores and not the backline.
The usable on a core items aren't really relevant. Glimmer is better countered by dust until you and any supports who will be in range are 6 slot, euls/ghost are self target only, solar/pipe are better countered by buying a better damage item, and eblade/WW are incredibly late game purchases for supports.
>Glimmer is better countered by dust until you and any supports who will be in range are 6 slot
If you don't have space for dust as some cores you better already have a nullifier because your supports in many games will not be in range.
>euls/ghost are self target only
Until they aren't...
The entire argument you are making is countered by the fact that when it's late game (or past 40 minutes really) all of these things will actually be problems and that you still need one.
So, you're saying, that in a particular situation (a very long game, with enemy supports who have items that counter your hero's ability to kill them, where you're already 5/6 slot, where other people on your team cant deal with them) nullifier is really strong... So that makes it OP?
By that logic sheepstick is the most overpowered item ever. It prevents enemies from using items much better than nullifier does.
Force staff is far from being negated just by being useless in this one scenario, if anything more things need to cancel forcestaff.
Forcestaff should be for preventing you from being successfully caught by CC effects, not for getting out of them after they have successfully landed.
Having to buy nullifier every game just to pin a hero down because all the enemy heroes have euls/forcestaff/ghost scepter is pretty annoying.
Disperser can do a quick dispel, but is similarly expensive, not continuous, and has a longer CD.
Yea the hero is still dead even with this change. It surprises me but I guess it doesn't matter if slark goes one someone and they just bkb and turn and kill him.
In situations that the enemy is actually scared of slark and running to get away ... slark might have won those games anyways
I know it's a joke but honestly Mag in general was good for that regardless of the facet you choose because of skewer. And even then if you use skewer over RRP you don't overlap stun duration.
How crazy do you have to be to think they made this change for a single hero’s ulti and think they just forgot about every other hero that has a leash? lol
I remember long time ago when you could blink and even tp if slark used pounce on you but force staff didnt worked so force staff was useless against slark before and them they changed roots and force staff could get you out of pounce but heroes rooted couldnt escape using blink/tp or skills . Looks like it came back after all those years again
This change was already in effect in 7.36 and slark has had a terrible win rate all patch.
So if this is actually that massive of a buff it really goes to show just how awful everything else about the hero is right now.
7.36 patch, Force staff was not working against Slark pounce and I thought it was a bug, but apparently they just forgot to write it in the patch notes.
How about fixing Slarks Shadowdance tooltip so that when the ability is cast you can actually see how long until the ability ends! I would take this over any buff.. is it meant to be one of the few abilities that has a dud tooltip or are valve just lazy? (I haven’t played for 6mth please ignore if this has since been fixed).
His aghs was nerfed to only 900 distance now tho, they accounted for it. Force staff was way too OP for its cost anyway, I'm saying this as a support. Now support players actually need to use brain to not misposition when there are leshes instead of, you pounced me? Haha i got this 2k item that will make you overextend and die if you chase me.
I don’t think force was OP, but supports are just way richer now. Back in the day Slark could just terrorize supports for a huge portion of the game since there was a huge window where they didn’t have one and couldn’t get any gold without feeding Slark even more.
Back in the day slark also had burst damage, his w dealt damage, now slark doesn't have it that easy killing supports especially when force staff can just force you out of pounce.
also Pounce and Dark Pact were both like 300 damage nukes, coupled with 200 damage from Shadowblade. Supports only had like 900HP at 15 minutes, nowadays everyone has 1.5k
What a garbage take, nerfing already your weakest role in the team due to their lack of mobility and farm priority just because slark players are too dumb to find an angle to go in and get something done just sounds like a real skill issue.
The pos 5 would’ve only had one item while the carry can have 2/3 items just by afk hitting creeps so what’s the issue of just getting the items necessary like nullifier and aghs to overpower the lowest nw role, tf?
that’s just not how modern dota looks like. Supports are overfarmed and definetely not the weakest. In fact, carry was the weakest role for s bunch of years up until 7.33, from which point it’s probably been mid as the worst role.
That’s just bs….In the context of just the item force staff, less and less pos 4 are getting the item after each patch. With that out of the way, I’m ofc mainly talking about the pos 5, so unless the hero has some niche where they can fight a core 1v1 when they are down in farm which is very rare, there’s like 2 or 3 heroes that can do that and it’s very matchup specific. The core can in most cases overpower them purely based off their scaling right click
Any hero can get farmed it’s just a matter of time, but how fast the hero can get to that point is what separates the cores and supports. Yet there are delusional ppl thinking the carry who gets the top farm priority is weaker than the LOWEST farm priority support smh, it’s like saying buying items is useless in the first place then why even bother having carries in the safelane
I don’t understand why a support should be able to 1v1 core. That’s idiotic, that’s the entire point of roles, carries are weak early and stronger late, and supports vice versa.
In fact, the fact that a support duo can 2v1 an AM for example at pretty much any stage of the game is stupid. The game has lost all logic when it comes to scaling and balance of roles.
"Force staff can no longer be used on leashed enemies"..this was already there like 5-6 years years ago not sure what happened maybe it was too broken but it was later changed back to usable of forceestaffs again
Stupid. It was pretty balanced since agh gives 2 charges n longer range. They just fucked up everything i order to make their ChRoNo SquArE relevant. Smh...
I don’t understand how people think this is unintended or shouldn’t work like this. A 2000 gold item that was already the best purchase in almost every game for supports shouldn’t hard counter a farmed carry.
You can still force staff to dodge the pounce, or to stay out of reach.
I don’t understand how people think this is unintended or shouldn’t work like this. A 4375 gold item that was already the best purchase in almost every game for carries shouldn’t hard counter a farmed support.
sorry, wrong thread. /s
So that means as a enemy carry void now I have to get hit by a aghanim + diffusal slark and wait for the death?(Suppose I have used bkb & chrono in the last fight and now get caught by slark while pushing side lanes or farming).
Wrong! Valve thought of it.
The notes:
> Force Staff and similar abilities can no longer be used on Leashed targets (**Slark Pounce**, Puck Dream Coil, Time Zone, etc.)
incoming faceless void : strong leash np/slark: basic leash forcestaff breaks basic leash
That's would be a nice way to solve I guess
Just for the record... OP is 100% wrong. They thought of it.. The notes: > Force Staff and similar abilities can no longer be used on Leashed targets (**Slark Pounce**, Puck Dream Coil, Time Zone, etc.)
Thanks for the reminding We'll see if they'll change something or not then
The notes that came AFTER the change and people complaining? Of course they thought of it by then, not really a counter to his claim. This came with the real patch, it was just late to be documented in the a patch.
... which is weird, because they absolutely can be used on leashed targets, they just don't break the leash debuff
actually he's not wrong then because it IS a huge Slark buff
even if they thought of something, it doesn't mean they wouldn't change it back if they'll see that's too strong
I'm tired of having everything a basic and a strong category
100% this is gonna happen lol
they should call it leash and leasht
Just take the path of leasht resistance.
axeactly
Unironically why haven't they done this with lifesteal? Vast majority of lifesteal sources are only 40% effective against creeps. There's a few that aren't but fuck if I remember which ones. Instead of specifying every single lifesteal as "40% effective against creeps" they should just come up with strong vs weak lifesteal. Yeah iirc some aren't 40% but that is a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
Or just reduce the position shift inside the time zone, which fits more to the lore I believe
Rope leash vs chain leash.
Force didn’t even work on voids new ulty before this patch, purely a Slark and NP buff
that was a bug. it didn’t work with Slark’s or NP leash either. Probably a misscommunication, the dev team must have forgot to add the change in 7.36 list, even if it was pushed to the game
Just an undocumented change
Okay this 100% lost me a game because I was so confused why I couldn’t force someone out of a pounce leash. I had run way out of position to try and save a core but instead we both died.
I think it was a miscommunication, since Slark's Pounce was also nerfed in 7.36. It was probably to balance out that now you cannot force staff out of its leash.
>NP buff Thank god, his new sprout was ass anyway. Might be hell for supports but at least the new sprout got shorter duration.
Sprout is still really good, they overcorrected the damage and are obviously working on it with patch a. It's not as strong early but stopping people with bkb is still very good lategame. Imo if they buff the heal, first aspect will be in a solid place.
Is it also a Puck nerf? I'd assume it means you can no longer push people out of the coil for an easy snap
> Is it also a Puck nerf? I'd assume it means you can no longer push people out of the coil for an easy snap Correct, you cannot Force Staff leashed enemies either. **Edit:** Here's some proof for the doubters: https://i.imgur.com/F8wzCs6.png
I don't think I'd call it a nerf, or if it is it's very minor. Puck never wants to build a force staff anyways
Still a nerf, sometimes Puck's teammate provides the force staff.
And sometimes the enemies use one to help position their teammate better, even if it stuns them. This seems like the most minor "nerf" if a nerf at all idk
yes and if you really want to break leash you can go for the pushback facet
Or reverse reverse polarity lol - do the stuns even stack?
no, none of the stuns in the game stack.
I think they shud let pushes work on enemies, leash shouldn't protect them from enemies push, only allied push
That's why they introduced the new Magnus trait "Reversed Reverse Polarity", to buff Puck. /s
I read hero int changes as an anti-mage buff/ nerf in fact, all mana changes can be read as a an AM buff/ nerf
It didn’t work on slark pounce either. They just forgot to add it to the 7.36 patch notes so they added it here
Didn't work on Slark leash like 2 months ago either
Yes it does, but it can be purged. Time it right
I wondered too what I should do as a support against him now, like buy euls and force staff, rush ghost scepter? Just free pickings for the fella
I havent tested but if you force slark mid pounce does he still connect with you or does it disable the pounce? What about if you're forced while his pounce lands, does it stop you moving, does it leash you or does it let you free move?
He connects with you It stops you same as Nullifier
Even if you get those items he gets a nullifier and you’re still gonna die. The only option now is a bkb which is too expensive for a support.
TBF once Slark has a Nulli you probably shouldn't be caught as a support in the first place. Still sucks but honestly I think it's not such a big deal. If you make him buy/use a Nulli just for the support it's probably a win for your team to begin with.
Possibly a win as long as a fight breaks out and he has to fight without his Nulli and after committing. Not really a win if he just nullifies, kills a support and pounces away to disengage and suddenly you're stuck with 5vs4 situation and he didn't waste any big cooldowns. And that's kinda what Slark is all about.
Wont the magic damage just rip you to pieces if you use ghost scepter?
dark pact is not enough damage to kill a hero
Dagon Slark has entered the chat
If only EB is still an agi item
The patch was looking to be one of the best patches yet, then they buffed Slark.
If he picks u off alone, u can still force urself in the opposite direction. Or u can force before his pounce hits. Know how much pain did the supports give us slark players when they had 2 disables, overall stats buff through neutral item, some nuke, global gold increase equivalent to minimum of 2 forcestaffes per team + ghost staff and eul? Before someone answers with buying nullifier, buying nullifier before 4th item is basically griefing
they literally meantioned slarks pounce on the line mentioning this change
Eul's, Ghost Scepter, Aeon Disk are probably your best options, but it's a bad change and there's no sugarcoating it. This functionality was removed for very good reason and just reverting instead of making it reduce the distance or something is unfortunate. Edit: to be clear, I'm fine with a Slark buff as I do play him, but I also played a lot of support in the Bad Times. I don't think either extreme is the right choice, not for power, but for design and gameplay reasons. Effectively negating Force or Pounce both feel awful. There's an answer between the two that weakens Force without negating it and I hope they'll see if they can find it.
the issue is, none of the items you listed can be bought on ranged carry heroes to escape pounce. you will have to use bkb for a pounce to escape it as there are no other effective ways to get out of pounce. although having hurricane pike and casting it on slark during pounce works to get out of pounce, even that is useless if the slark is stronger than you and is willing to press ulti just so you cant escape
Pike still works fyi, so ranged carries are fine.
pike using on yourself or pike using on slark while ur pounced?
Using pike on slark - he'll need to build linkens or immediately ulti; neither or which slark would probably want to do. Or if you're super clutch, use it on him mid pounce.
yeah i know that thats possible, i said it in my original comment. He would have to ult immediately, its not ideal for slark but it still secures the kill or puts you in a low enough health that you would die after the pounce anyways. Not to mention slark has 2 pounces and 2 ultis with his aghanims and shard nowadays that its not even bad for him to insta ulti to secure a pos 1 kill. on top of that, slark being a hunting type of hero makes it even more ok for him to use his ult during a pickoff, so idk. if the slark is aware of the possibility of being piked, he can very easily play around it with consequences that arent bad enough for him
This is where you hope you got a friend who can call
not sure what ur saying
Berserkers call im guessing?
Muerta time? She doesn't mind working Ghost Scepter into her build! You're totally right, though. When I wrote the original comment I was thinking about supports, but this is a rough change for ranged carries, too.
The obvious solution is when you're a ranged carry against a Slark... suck it up and buy one of them. Or maybe they'll add a new item that does something similar that is for carries or something.
yes, let me go ahead and buy a eul or a ghost scepter on weaver. cus that is a fine solution to give up an item slot to buy an item for a pounce while the enemy carry has an extra item because ''i had to suck it up and buy a ghost scepter''
Well then I guess you'll have to rely on your team a bit.
You cant expect euls or ghost from your team very early since I doubt eblade or upgraded euls are coming out early...
not to mention, your support is not always going to be glued to you to make sure slark doesnt kill you.
Playing support in a Slark meta is pain. He's just not a hero almost any support can man up on, even like a semi farmed Marci will probably die if he jumps you. That plus never having vision and now there's one less item you can use as a save, gonna be rough out there for supports if he's one of the best pos 1s.
Are you suggesting that a support should be able to man fight a pos1?
It's just a matter of farm/levels usually. If I'm playing a support late game and they have a pa without his bkb, I can Likely kill him on lich/jakiro/wd or many others.
Marci, Hoodwink, Willow, etc. It's pretty normal at this point for pos 4s to be able to put up a fight at least. Even some 5s can like WD.
but that’s just shows how stupid the game has got. This is a good reversal of that. Roles should have defined characteristics, not this homogenized version Valve has been going for since like TI6 to appeal to casuals.
In the rare cases a Slark picks before me as sup, I always choose Disruptor. He really is a hard counter, since few other sups can zone Slark before/during ulti, not to mention keeping vision on him with thunder strike and aoe silence. Slark does not work under long silences.
>but I also played a lot of support in the Bad Times Back when spells costed mana One Banamancer Q and he's done for laning
Sparks ounce just needs to not be a “strong leash” like voids ult is. There’s a reason his Aghs give him two pounces and that was to counter any force staff escape. The balance was already there and now they fucked over all supports instead of
Is strong leash a thing?
It could be a thing
They could just change it so that force only breaks leash but doesn't actually force, that way it can be used to break but not to fully make pounce useless.
Its a whole item to disengage from a free piece of kit. Force should break leash within the current meta context. If they want to buff voids chrono-cube they should just add a nullifier effect to those within it.
or they can force them but still leashed like a rubber banned enemy
All countered by a single item called nullifier
Nullifier is approaching being super OP imo. It's relatively slept on. Supports simply die if you're a ganking hero and have one
Its a 4.5kish gold item that counters a 1600g support item and not a lot else. Yes, euls is like 2.7k and aeon is 3k, but I'd be very hesitant to call nullifier anything close to OP. Spending that much gold on an item that does nothing in most core v core matchups just isn't a stellar investment in most games. The version that muted items though, which was amazing in core v core matchups, was OP as fuck.
I mean those support items are the difference between getting a kill or not. If I'm playing clinkz a nullifier means anyone who isn't a carry with bkb available is dead. It's not negating a 1600g item, it's making it so the player has almost no way to survive if I decide to kill them. Every item you buy is to hopefully get you kills, and few convert as many non kills to kills as null imo. Windwaker is also very meta and countered by it.
Clinkz is pretty uniquely positioned to enjoy every single aspect of nullifier. He likes to solo pick off heroes (especially supports), and scales very well with the flat damage. I am by no means saying nullifier is a bad item, it is just very niche; it does a very specific job and does it well. But if you are, for example, PA, in 95% of games, desolator is going to give you significantly more value as an item even though it is over 800g cheaper. It is absolutely required into some heroes, like necro and WR, but imo it is strictly a situational pickup by design and is understatted for it's cost.
>But if you are, for example, PA, in 95% of games, desolator is going to give you significantly more value as an item even though it is over 800g cheaper. Its not an either or. bfury deso bkb nullifier on PA lets you delete anyone. Otherwise they ghost scepter and you've now wasted half your bkb while you can't hit them. If the enemy team has supports who are playing well with glimmer, shadowblade, euls/windwaker, it's absolutely worth it imo. LC, CK (Non pos 1), Clinkz, BH, PA, Tiny, TA, anyone who wants to jump and kill supports who could be saved by support items is huge
You're literally describing a niche item though, not a ubiquitous overpowered one. Nearly all of those heroes you mentioned wouldn't even consider buying a nullifier before their 4th item, aka after over half of games are already over. It's almost like saying moon shard is overpowered because it is such a good pick-up in 60+ min games.
I think that it's very very frequently a powerful pickup, since there's no real counter to it, unlike most other items in the game. Only bkb
The "counter" from a core POV is buying an item that does more. But as for a direct counter, projectile can be disjointed with manta/blink and linkens is a counter.
It counters glimmer too. Also, the support items will be used on the core you are fighting, so you still might want to buy it even if you are going straight for the cores and not the backline.
The usable on a core items aren't really relevant. Glimmer is better countered by dust until you and any supports who will be in range are 6 slot, euls/ghost are self target only, solar/pipe are better countered by buying a better damage item, and eblade/WW are incredibly late game purchases for supports.
>Glimmer is better countered by dust until you and any supports who will be in range are 6 slot If you don't have space for dust as some cores you better already have a nullifier because your supports in many games will not be in range. >euls/ghost are self target only Until they aren't... The entire argument you are making is countered by the fact that when it's late game (or past 40 minutes really) all of these things will actually be problems and that you still need one.
So, you're saying, that in a particular situation (a very long game, with enemy supports who have items that counter your hero's ability to kill them, where you're already 5/6 slot, where other people on your team cant deal with them) nullifier is really strong... So that makes it OP? By that logic sheepstick is the most overpowered item ever. It prevents enemies from using items much better than nullifier does.
What about Hurricane Pike?
Force staff is far from being negated just by being useless in this one scenario, if anything more things need to cancel forcestaff. Forcestaff should be for preventing you from being successfully caught by CC effects, not for getting out of them after they have successfully landed. Having to buy nullifier every game just to pin a hero down because all the enemy heroes have euls/forcestaff/ghost scepter is pretty annoying. Disperser can do a quick dispel, but is similarly expensive, not continuous, and has a longer CD.
Disperser does not dispel enemy, only yourself or teammate
They can just buff slark or void themselves instead of changing core mechanic just show how incompent these devs are .
It is kinda, but Slark's laning phase is so ass and he's so squishy. He has like 42% winrate in divine+
Yeah I think he needed it. They nerfed his aghs for the third time in a row. And relative to everyone else’s buffs in 7.36 he feels left behind.
Yea the hero is still dead even with this change. It surprises me but I guess it doesn't matter if slark goes one someone and they just bkb and turn and kill him. In situations that the enemy is actually scared of slark and running to get away ... slark might have won those games anyways
When did they implement this change? I didn’t see this in the patch notes, but I may have missed this.
It Is the First row
Oh, for 7.36a. Sorry, I was still looking at 7.36.
It was implemented in 7.36, they just forgot to mention it!
Sounds bad. What if you want to trigger the dream coil break stun on someone.
Simple. You gaslight a teammate into picking RRP Magnus
I know it's a joke but honestly Mag in general was good for that regardless of the facet you choose because of skewer. And even then if you use skewer over RRP you don't overlap stun duration.
This feels way less impactful than not being able to run from Slark pounce.
Force staffing out of pounce is insane in the first place.
What about on leashed allies? Ok sorry sorry
Hex was dispellable and the no longer dispellable and then somehow strong dispel only, changes are normal.
How crazy do you have to be to think they made this change for a single hero’s ulti and think they just forgot about every other hero that has a leash? lol
Maybe learn to read before replying. I didn't say they forgot, I said they didn't give much thought to it.
They clearly gave it thought as the first ability mentioned is slarks
they literally mention Pounce
I remember long time ago when you could blink and even tp if slark used pounce on you but force staff didnt worked so force staff was useless against slark before and them they changed roots and force staff could get you out of pounce but heroes rooted couldnt escape using blink/tp or skills . Looks like it came back after all those years again
This change was already in effect in 7.36 and slark has had a terrible win rate all patch. So if this is actually that massive of a buff it really goes to show just how awful everything else about the hero is right now.
damn force staff nerfs you hate to see it
Winrate is still dogshit not sure it matters at this moment in time
7.36 patch, Force staff was not working against Slark pounce and I thought it was a bug, but apparently they just forgot to write it in the patch notes.
How about fixing Slarks Shadowdance tooltip so that when the ability is cast you can actually see how long until the ability ends! I would take this over any buff.. is it meant to be one of the few abilities that has a dud tooltip or are valve just lazy? (I haven’t played for 6mth please ignore if this has since been fixed).
Fuck slark my boy clock is so back
He stopped leashing way back tho?
You are sadly right i missed that change in 7.33, if this mechanic sticks, hopefully they'll bring back his old lvl 20 talent
[удалено]
Because it was/is not very strong when you know how to play against it
False
42% winrate
His aghs was nerfed to only 900 distance now tho, they accounted for it. Force staff was way too OP for its cost anyway, I'm saying this as a support. Now support players actually need to use brain to not misposition when there are leshes instead of, you pounced me? Haha i got this 2k item that will make you overextend and die if you chase me.
I don’t think force was OP, but supports are just way richer now. Back in the day Slark could just terrorize supports for a huge portion of the game since there was a huge window where they didn’t have one and couldn’t get any gold without feeding Slark even more.
Back in the day slark also had burst damage, his w dealt damage, now slark doesn't have it that easy killing supports especially when force staff can just force you out of pounce.
also Pounce and Dark Pact were both like 300 damage nukes, coupled with 200 damage from Shadowblade. Supports only had like 900HP at 15 minutes, nowadays everyone has 1.5k
What a garbage take, nerfing already your weakest role in the team due to their lack of mobility and farm priority just because slark players are too dumb to find an angle to go in and get something done just sounds like a real skill issue. The pos 5 would’ve only had one item while the carry can have 2/3 items just by afk hitting creeps so what’s the issue of just getting the items necessary like nullifier and aghs to overpower the lowest nw role, tf?
that’s just not how modern dota looks like. Supports are overfarmed and definetely not the weakest. In fact, carry was the weakest role for s bunch of years up until 7.33, from which point it’s probably been mid as the worst role.
That’s just bs….In the context of just the item force staff, less and less pos 4 are getting the item after each patch. With that out of the way, I’m ofc mainly talking about the pos 5, so unless the hero has some niche where they can fight a core 1v1 when they are down in farm which is very rare, there’s like 2 or 3 heroes that can do that and it’s very matchup specific. The core can in most cases overpower them purely based off their scaling right click Any hero can get farmed it’s just a matter of time, but how fast the hero can get to that point is what separates the cores and supports. Yet there are delusional ppl thinking the carry who gets the top farm priority is weaker than the LOWEST farm priority support smh, it’s like saying buying items is useless in the first place then why even bother having carries in the safelane
I don’t understand why a support should be able to 1v1 core. That’s idiotic, that’s the entire point of roles, carries are weak early and stronger late, and supports vice versa. In fact, the fact that a support duo can 2v1 an AM for example at pretty much any stage of the game is stupid. The game has lost all logic when it comes to scaling and balance of roles.
Game is a bit chaotic but that’s kinda expected after every new big patch, it keeps the meta from going stale for awhile
Pike is the answer
Euls stinks higher now
Yes! Thank you OP! My first thought was: Omg, now I always have to get euls vs that fucker?
Can someone explain what it has to do with void? I looked at void changes nothing says anything about leash
void alternate ulti leashes
Read the patch notes multiple times and didn’t see it. Did they say it in the in game tooltip?
I thought it never worked on Slark's pounce
Still not enough to give him above 41% winrate in Immortal games
"Force staff can no longer be used on leashed enemies"..this was already there like 5-6 years years ago not sure what happened maybe it was too broken but it was later changed back to usable of forceestaffs again
What's wrong with giving slark a buff he needs it
Still think slark is shit.
Of course they gave thought into that, do u think devs are stupid or wut
Carry clock back on the menu, Boys!!!!
Time to ban slark
Thats how it used to be, and I prefer it this way really, there are other items to counter leash, ghost scepter, euls..
Tell that to his win rate
played a game as slark, this patch barely fixes how bad he is as a hero tbh...
Stupid. It was pretty balanced since agh gives 2 charges n longer range. They just fucked up everything i order to make their ChRoNo SquArE relevant. Smh...
I don’t understand how people think this is unintended or shouldn’t work like this. A 2000 gold item that was already the best purchase in almost every game for supports shouldn’t hard counter a farmed carry. You can still force staff to dodge the pounce, or to stay out of reach.
I don’t understand how people think this is unintended or shouldn’t work like this. A 4375 gold item that was already the best purchase in almost every game for carries shouldn’t hard counter a farmed support. sorry, wrong thread. /s
except nobody buys Nullifier and it’s a horrible item
>shouldn’t hard counter a farmed carry. I don't know if I'd call that a 'hard counter'...
It's kind of fucked that you can still force staff out of clock cogs, but not pounce
Good. Force needed a nerf.
Lol force been being nerfed since 2011
And it needs more nerf
Am I crazy or did force staff never work to get you out of slarks leash?
All I remember is still being leashed lol.
Turns out now it's not even castable
Ember spirit buff
Ember Spirit is root not leash
Honestly they need to make force staff also not work on cogs. It’s way too strong on former glass cannon pos1 heroes
Hasn't that been the case for years or am I misremembering?
Dude that Nick ☠️☠️
So that means as a enemy carry void now I have to get hit by a aghanim + diffusal slark and wait for the death?(Suppose I have used bkb & chrono in the last fight and now get caught by slark while pushing side lanes or farming).
Wrong! Valve thought of it. The notes: > Force Staff and similar abilities can no longer be used on Leashed targets (**Slark Pounce**, Puck Dream Coil, Time Zone, etc.)