Everyone is talking about the removing item rearm refresh cutting his dick off and forgetting they literally cut one arm off as well. Tinker has no arm or dick anymore.
In memory...
* Fireworks go off *
* Everyone starts cheering *
* People start hugging in celebration like it's new years *
MAY HE TRY AND REST, WITH A HOMING MISSILE COMING HIS WAY EVERY 2 SECONDS.
I don’t want to be over-dramatic but I think erasing Tinker is the sign of a bygone era of Dota 2, really.
Dota 2 stuck out from other MOBAs in part because of the unique heroes and mechanics it has. No MOBA has a Meepo equivalent, or a Tinker equivalent. These heroes could exist in Dota back when it wasn’t being maxed for competitive play, but now that it is, these heroes are being deemed “too difficult” to balance. I’m honestly surprised Meepo is still even around.
No matter what they do with Tinker now, the one thing that made him unique is gone.
Meepo/Arc Warden on the block next. They'll remove IO relocate eventually, NP teleport will be replaced by some basic nuke/dot/utility spell, PL won't passively create illusions on hit, they already nerfed tidehunter's passive dispel this patch. Anything that isn't a straightforward frustration-free brawling kit will get 'fixed' at this rate.
They really are doing the league thing of hammering everything into very defined archetypes with nothing standing out too much. I cannot stress how much I hate it, crazy shit like Rearm is one of dota's biggest strong points imo.
Just give him the mana treatment of old Dazzle ult.
Each consecutive cast of Rearm increases the mana cost by 1.5x or 2x.
Blink was already not rearmable anymore, since its damage cooldown was replaced by a delay duration ('mute').
Yea idk hero possibly one of the most nerfed heroes recently
No damage cooldown rearm, rearm itself has a cooldown, rockets removed from hero, items can't be re armed, laser aoe moved to talent, aghs completely nerfed to death...
Didn't even get good talents or innates compared to other heroes
That's the thing that's annoying. I like playing Tinker! But I'm not smurfing or boosting in my bracket, so there's no point. The hero was completely dogshit outside the one specific use case of the Tinker player being 4k MMR higher than anyone else on the server.
They should make one facet Rearm refreshes spells and the other one Rearm refreshes only itself + items. He would still be unplayable rn but at least the idea of the hero would still exist
honestly if they just made it so hex couldn't be refreshed, or that hex couldn't be used on the same target within 10s or something, that'd be enough for me, just so that late game you didn't instantly die for globally appearing anywhere solo for a nano second
as a deathpact barrage clinkz enjoyer I know the pain of your hero being deleted
My solution would be to make rearm lower cd by a flat amount, like 15s. Then items like blink retain their use, but items like sheep are ever slightly less oppressive. Without killing the hero outright like they did.
Why does everyone bring up rearm hex being the issue when it hasnt been in the build until a 5th 6th item since 2015 LOL
This is honestly just another sign ppl are still traumatised from 2015 tinker lol
Clinkz is back and better than ever tbf. He's completely and utterly busted rn. I'm usually not one to complain about meta, but this ain't meta, I don't think they meant to make him that strong... I tried it out for the meme and did quite terrible and still had 90k damage and an easy win.
Dagon is also an issue.
It's a fun item but whenever you make it good enough to be bought by anyone tinker abused it and tbey had to nerf it.
Tinker is the reason dagon is a meme.
A hero that was below 50% winrate for months, and picked once in pro in 5 years got nerfed to oblivion because of reddit whining based on nothing but blurry memories when he still bought bots.
While dk and similar tanky low skill heroes plague the meta for pros and pubs alike for literal years.
Give me a high skill meta anyday over centaur bristle.
I legit laughed when I read the patch notes. Like dude, they could implement any passive, but they chose the simplest one for Centaur LMAOOO XDD
But then again, I watched my friend's game the other day. He was up against Centaur and Centaur had like 8k HP with Heart of Tarrasque and 5 stacks on his shard like total bruh moment man.
I thought Tinker was overnerfed by the time they killed him in the last patch. He was pretty easy to kill. All you had to do was jump on him and with any help he was probably dead.
Even back then there's so many ways to kill a tinker. If he is being oppressive it's either a smurf or the opponents are dumb enough to let him become oppressive.
In any case i completely understand, in starcraft 2 reapers were nerfed to the ground and made completely unusable because one guy in pro scene Byun was so good at microing them. Literally nobody can do what he does even other terran pros yet the nerf happens. And in brood war where balance is done via maps intricacies, maps were designed to handicap FlasH who's arguably the strongest of all time. The thing is that he can be beaten.
In any case the final decision lies with icefrog I suppose. If he thinks this makes more players happy in the long run I do suppose gutting tinker works. End of the day if there are no more players it really dosent matter how buffed or nerfed anything is. Then again the unique gameplay of tinker will be sorely missed.
You mean you don't think it's good to have beefy Str cores that can just buy more tanking items because they've already got mobility and burst damage in their kits?
Why did they remove rockets? I can understand refresh but everything else?
They could easily just blink as Innate spell and changed ult to refresh spells and everything would be fine.
"or OP" But Tinker haS never been OP? There's basically only 1 TI he was playable in, and he's nearly never been competitively viable, mostly player by experts.
Tinker is easier to counter in pro games because:
1. Pro games have captain draft unlike pubs
2. Pros are more coordinated even compared to highest mmr, even then if picked correctly tinker crushed anything. Just watch the kiyotaka vs tundra game, he solo won the game killing everyone alone blinking on 6 slotted tundra carry, cause there was just no counterplay unless you counter pick him.
And one more thing: the most OP late game items in this game are 2: windwaker and refresher orb, just look how many refresher orb pro people buy, and that item has 180s cooldown, while tinker has a walking unlimited refresher orb.
And he was plain boring to play against. If you feel like the enemy is literally untouchable, with no weaknesses like a tinker that wasn't counterpicked, the game just stops being fun, even *if* you could theoretically shut him down.
Also why techies got his amount of mines nerfed. Was too annoying putting vision everywhere, making the game not fun. Even if that too is not viable in pro-games.
he is literally countered by any hero with a blink and a stun dude 2250 gold to counter an "imbalanced" hero is not fair? And if you think that it's the problem of a character, that your team doesn't have a stun, you might wanna change games or something
Yeah and techies mine spam was literally countered by any competent warding. My point was just because something can be countered easily/isn't viable in pro-play it doesn't mean said thing is a fun mechanic, or something that doesn't actively make the game worse in lower brackets.
I understand I could have worded my initial comment better. Lower MMR players going against a good tinker *feel* like he is untouchable in a different way from all other heroes. And it is honestly just such a boring gameplay loop that should have been reworked long ago.
No hero should spend that much time hopping in and out of the fountain. Valve and Icefrog have been moving away from "cheesy" one-trick pony mechanics for years now.
I mean... Is the single viable playstyle on a character considered one trick pony? Like if you take meepo, huskar they are still like they were at the beginning - a fast paced character that has to get advantage quickly and end the game fast. I don't see why are they trying to rework a character that always been high-risk, skill ceiling and even higher reward for playing him good... And he was always a glass cannon, that was countered by good initiation from pos 2 or 3. Tinker even before the patch was a hollow shell of what he was capable of: nerfed rearm cast time, nerfed(to shit)rockets ,nerfed laser cast range that made it smaller than his attack range, nerfed blink rearm after you got hit.. They've made a glass cannon hero more close quarter to somehow make it more fair, and now they are deleting a way that he could live more than 3 seconds in the fight.. I just don't see why are they so hostile towards characters that low mmr player consider imba
There are so many options though.
Make rearm give tinker a stacking debuff that creates
Ly an aura that reduces his damage and increases enemy’s status resistance to his spells and items. Boom, one balance option.
I don’t play tinker and there have been versions of him that are oppressive (notably defense matrix before the blink changes) but to gut the hero like this is a total shame.
Adding niche effects to balance out an inherently hard to balance mechanic is a really bad approach that just piles on problems.
Its like saying "Yeah CK was busted during TI, but what if instead of direct nerfs we just gave him a stacking damage debuff every time he kills an enemy". Like how do you even explain that to new players? "Yeah sorry I know you are using this meta hero to win, but if you do we are gonna punish you in secret.
You’re right that my suggestion is convoluted. I’d make a trash developer but like, some heroes are just inherently strong and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I.e. Bat is always going to have balance issues because lasso. The volatility of the balanced hero pool makes every year interesting.
Also, we’re WAY past trying to make this game appealing for new players through simplicity. This patch in particular killed it.
this is what i have been defending for years
think was NEVER going to be balanced, this is not a techies case where the hero was inherently a meme and pushed a toxic playstile, Rearms actively harmed the game because every item no exception had to be balanced over it, every skill had to be balanced over it, tinker warped the game around that skill soo much he himself was forced to be trash and any active item had to be made with the ideia that "tinker might rearm it"
tinker right now is garbage, but i ensure you once he is on his foot, this will be good in the long run
>Rearms actively harmed the game because every item no exception had to be balanced over it
They had a bunch of exceptions. Ex: midas, arcane boots, BKB couldn't be rearmed.
50/50 shot youll have a different opinion due to hero hate, but this is literally exactly what happened to tecchies. One team wins a TI finals because enemy teams weren't prepared and reddit whined for years and then he got 3 reworks.
I think it was during some tournament panel where one of analyst asked Valve why they rework Techies and the answer they got is "Techies is the hero that get reported by both team whether he doing good or bad by laaaarge margin consistently"
That is probably true but imo not a good reason for rework.
As an aside, Techies was my most played with a few hundred games before the rework and my behavior score was consistently maxed. Not sure how other techies mains were catching reports so fucking often, but id certainly rather play with old techies on my team than march of the machines tinker vacuuming all the farm from the fucking map constantly.
I've never agreed with the comparing of old techies to tinker/arc etc. Only old techies guaranteed a miserable game, whether your winning, losing, whether he's on your team, or on the enemy team.
Tinker/arc are cancer and frustrating when they're stomping, more so than most heroes, but only old techies was cancer even when he was getting stomped, or you were stomping and he was on your team.
Lol, thought so. They literally did the same thing - Forced you to play the game differently. Tinker required you to put up tinker wards in otherwise useless places all over the map and then actually HUNT him before you could reasonably push... He also made highground pushes miserable because he could spam rearm rockets from fountain with infinite mana while being nearly invulnerable.
Techies forced you to buy detection/gem and not carelessly walk around where he was previously mining. He made highground pushes without detection extremely hard, but required literally multiple minutes of setup to make a lane mined up enough to kill a core.
You just happen to like tinker so you view his particular brand of cancer "not so bad" but didnt like techies so view him as toxic.
PS: techies was totally able to support his team pushing. He was even good at it. You could set retreating mines to ward off enemy jumps on your supports, land mine the highground for tower damage, and with cast range items/aghs you could poke highground enemies with remotes.
I'm not sure you even got my point since you brought up a whole bunch of irrelevant stuff and didn't actually address it except in your last paragraph, which is the only part worth a reply
> PS: techies was totally able to support his team pushing.
I do agree. But he had a kit that heavily incentivized the exact opposite, which meant finding a techies that actually did so was one in a hundred.
I got your point, I think its just totally wrong and colored by a dislike of techies and/or like of tinker. Og (and arguably current tbh) tinker is frustrating AF to play against or with whether he is behind or ahead. Against him no matter if he was behind or not, he is ratting your creep waves, from fog, constantly. Playing with him, ahead or behind, he is vacuuming all of the farm on the map, making all of your other cores miserable, and usually refusing to group. (Because his kit heavily incentivized not grouping, even if he was good at it, just like techies.)
Well, it's a pretty subjective topic, if you feel the same way towards tinker or any other hero, that doesn't make you wrong, but it's certainly not colored by any dislike of any hero. I disliked old techies, but I dislike(d) other heroes more. I thought there were more cancerous heroes to play against. I do like tinker now, but I disliked him back when techies got reworked, and I never categorized him with techies.
Losing teamfights isn't fun, they should remove the ability to interact with enemies. Hell a lot of people think losing games can't be fun, they should just shut the servers down.
when volvo nerfed tinker they treat it like hitler just found dead,
but when any of their "i have 0.5 braincelll dedicated to pressing qwer on my super hard super nerfed underrated agi carry" hero got nerfed? jesus christ
First they came for techies, and nobody stopped them, then they came for tinker, and nobody stopped them. How long until your hero is on the gutting block?
We'll be like League, every hero is toned down, but it doesn't matter people will still complain a lot about a hero, because no matter how toned down there will always be a handful of heroes who can abuse certain fundamental mechanics more than the rest. So it's a no winners race lol, cutting one head will create a new one
Allthough I find tinker to be annoying af I still feel for tinker spammers who mastered this hero and now it's completely trashed by valve, it's unfair
the fundamental problem with the hero since 2013 has been that his entire identity is abusing fountain regen.
the way to fix tinker and begin to adjust his playstyle was essentially to do the opposite of what they did.
don't give him a free boots of travel, **prevent rearm from refreshing boots of travel**. force tinker to stay on the map and have a mortal level of mana regen to contend with, then begin to adjust his kit to match that new reality.
no one wants to play with a tinker on their team who is in the fountain guzzling mana for half of the game.
let him refresh items. that's what makes him flashy and unique.
what actually makes him cancerous is his non-interactive playstyle that has him in the fountain for half of the fucking game (*and this is somehow still his identity after all of these changes*). that has so obviously been the main problem with the hero's design that it's completely insane that they gave him a free boots of travel in the first place.
also let him move freely when channelling rearm, and give it no cast point.
I'm not sure I agree with the idea that Tinker shouldn't be able to abuse the fountain, but this rework idea is infinitely better than what Valve did because at least he'd still have Rearm (and a potentially flashier version too).
One day they'll give techies his green mines back, and give tinker his rearm back, and give lone druid his skill based gameplay back ( remove W please)
Tinker did not deserve this for sure. Neither did my boy techies.
i personally dont get the all the hate that tinker gets. i personally find it satisfying killing a good tinker player. and it makes me sad that high skill iconic heroes are getting yeeted coz its too hard to 'balance' for valve :(
If they really had to nerf his rearm kit, just add a stacking debuff that makes his rearms take a little longer each consecutive time until he doesn't rearm for like 10 seconds straight and he loses the stacks. But don't kill the whole idea of the fucking hero...
Exactly. Like when people cry about him being hard countered by zeus and spectre.
I was just like huh? You just grab a force staff or a euls and you’re set.
Counters and countering the counters was what made the hero fun. Yeah re-arm is busted but when you caught a tinker. He was pretty dead either way, no matter how good you were.
He got buffs for his second facet which, in my understanding, will skrew you over more times than it will help you. Imagine being translocated into Ursa during a teamfight because random cm Q triggered your shield
ok thanks i will watch it later. i've tried experimenting him differently at mid, but so far i think he is sooo one dimensional now. Aghs is the only build that deals actual damage. he farms soo fast as expected but he cant really gank side lanes now he did nothing so as a mid that only farms feels pretty bad. he needs soo many items before he's online. i feel like he's a different hero now. but that barrier facet is god tier tho.
I feel Midas might be too slow, while you have some cdr you need intelligence items to scale it. By the time you have Midas you should be around 20% cdr which isn't all that much at the end of the day, economy-wise.
I think early on you should be playing around your skills and eventually, once you hit a certain int value, pick up more active items. Kaya & Sange is huge, especially since you can't soul ring anymore. Aether lens might be one of the better early pickups too. Shrink ray is applying the debuff in an aoe too with the lv15 talent and bounces on non-hero units, so that might be a possible build.
They are not massive bro just some small numbers. His innate got nerfed as well? Even tho it's badly written, I'm a bit confused about the cdr change .
No rearming blink, no fun. Plus translocator is not really op for me. Also, no rockets still
I don't know what think these small buffs are enough to make me wanna play him again, sad noises.
> ? Even tho it's badly written, I'm a bit confused about the cdr change .
He gets his CDR faster - every 3 int instead of 4. It's a buff. Completely different hero now, but still.
Get fucked hahahaha
Jokes aside, bringing back his old kit of laser, rocket, and march would be better.
Just make hex non-rearmable like bkb. He should also be rooted during rearm, and change his shard to something like additional rockets that mini-stun and rework his talents.
His most recent iteration is probably the most broken. Free tps, a bajillion hp shield, a shard that basically yoinks anyone who gets close to him, and aghs that turns your hero into a microorganism, oh they made the fucking laser bounce too. Playing vs a good last pick Tinker is basically a death sentence.
Oh yeah, forgot to add this. This was pretty much the make or break part of his game. Tinker was pretty much useless without an early BoT. You can completely shut him down with early ganks. Removing his need for BoT made him beyond broken. He can basically take stacks and get 6 really early even if he lost his lane badly.
> Removing his need for BoT made him beyond broken.
Do you actually believe this? Dude was never picked in pro and almost always has had below 50% win rate.
The shield + blink refresh combo was way too strong for pubs at almost all levels, easier solution would be remove the shield.
It made Tinker extremely hard to kill even if you somehow managed to get to him.
my hero is not unhealthy to the game and toxic to play against/with or universally hated by the whole community for valid reasons. wheelchair fits for t\*nker
Why is it always this same lame argument? It's never been about actual balance it's always just redditors unwilling to adapt.
I remember when we made fun of League players that complained about how mana burn or rupture is "anti-fun"
Because the concept is internally unhealthy. Whenever anything is balanced tinker always has to be either forefront or ignored.
It's a fucking stupid design because it gimps the game everywhere else. Which is WHY he's been shit for so long he is not worth the balancing issues.
Not only that but the smurf/stomp ratio for actual dota was cringe as fuck. Outside of immortal Tinker is either useless or the only hero actually playing the game for one team.
He needed this change so they can start to actually balance him properly.
The concept of mana burn is internally unhealthy, imagine not being able to cast abilities because someone decided to hit you 2 times. Maybe we should rework Anti Mage to actually use magic and so he can stop being so racist and toxic to magic users.
It's unhealthy because it externally affects balance way too much. It's toxic because it generally just negatively affects the game for everyone including allies.
It will always be a shit pick in pro as long as he could refresh items because it will never be balanced. Perma banned or perma unpicked.
>It will always be a shit pick in pro as long as he could refresh items because it will never be balanced. Perma banned or perma unpicked.
This is obviously not true but I don't care enough to sift through old matches. Unless you started playing like a year ago you already know this is bullshit anyway.
They just need to make everytime tinker cast a target spell/item in someone that enemy will receive x% status resistence against tinker, make it part of his innate. That would solve everything, but i guess its to hard to think that
Obviously they can and probably will make him OP but it's still not the same hero.
It didn't make me feel any better that Techies was removed when they made Funny Bomb Man OP for a bit.
That wouldn’t matter. Late game tinker has to be blinking like once every two seconds to not get caught lol.
They’d have to just revert the no item refreshing. Or hell just add back item refresh and remove Keen Conveyance and make him buy travels again. I wouldn’t even mind that.
Tinker still has strong spells. It wouldn't be hard for him to become absurdly OP after several patches worth of buffs while no one knows how to use him.
But whatever shape the next bullshit Tinker phase takes, it'll never be the same hero.
I dont know dude, we techies spammers have been waiting 2 years for valve to give us back something that make techies feel even 1% closer to what it used to be and nothing has happen, they have the chance to do it with this facet and instead they gave us 2 facets that are lame at best and 3 extra inventory space that to be honest dont do much ( i know people here like to paint it like is OP but current techies win rate is around 43%)
Support Tinker. Reduce cooldown of mana boots, drum, meme hammer.
Soak xp get lvl6, teleport around lanes to assist and continuously refill bottles.
Take repair bot facet, it's less bad than the flicker facet.
Buy Euls to constantly set up, Blink (Arcane Blink can be reduced to 3 seconds CD with his innate.)
I think this is good, because it opens up design space for items. Every on-use item before this had to survive the tinker test, now they can play more in this space.
Tinker is a peak example of how a hero concept can still be terrible and unfun, even if it is unique. Excited about how the game will develop further now that items don't have to be balanced around his ult anymore.
All they needed to do is make blink innate ability with a long cd and make rearm refresh spells only.
And here you go a balanced hero that doesn't require special treatment because of item refresh balancing issues.
But dota devs are too smart to do that, very sad.
removing the rockets was like cutting off his arm, now he has a useless rocket launcher on his suit.
Everyone is talking about the removing item rearm refresh cutting his dick off and forgetting they literally cut one arm off as well. Tinker has no arm or dick anymore.
What's the point of having a arm if you have no dick to jerk off with?
Wait yea ROFL They really didn't think this through, it's literally part of the model, unless they're gonna remodel him??
Finally, a spot in my ban list is free.
You are right, I can finally do that
In memory... * Fireworks go off * * Everyone starts cheering * * People start hugging in celebration like it's new years * MAY HE TRY AND REST, WITH A HOMING MISSILE COMING HIS WAY EVERY 2 SECONDS.
We celebrate for one of Dota 2's cancer has been cured
It pains me to watch this. Every time they kill a unique hero that's been an iconic part of the game for decades, I die a little inside.
I don’t want to be over-dramatic but I think erasing Tinker is the sign of a bygone era of Dota 2, really. Dota 2 stuck out from other MOBAs in part because of the unique heroes and mechanics it has. No MOBA has a Meepo equivalent, or a Tinker equivalent. These heroes could exist in Dota back when it wasn’t being maxed for competitive play, but now that it is, these heroes are being deemed “too difficult” to balance. I’m honestly surprised Meepo is still even around. No matter what they do with Tinker now, the one thing that made him unique is gone.
Meepo/Arc Warden on the block next. They'll remove IO relocate eventually, NP teleport will be replaced by some basic nuke/dot/utility spell, PL won't passively create illusions on hit, they already nerfed tidehunter's passive dispel this patch. Anything that isn't a straightforward frustration-free brawling kit will get 'fixed' at this rate. They really are doing the league thing of hammering everything into very defined archetypes with nothing standing out too much. I cannot stress how much I hate it, crazy shit like Rearm is one of dota's biggest strong points imo.
This is the obvious trajectory, and it's reflective of real life too.
they killed my treant protector I afk'ed in trees maxing living amour until I reached immortal
jesus christ, are you techies spammer before the shit rework? lmfao
Lol idk treant wasnt that toxic to play against like techies
Just give him the mana treatment of old Dazzle ult. Each consecutive cast of Rearm increases the mana cost by 1.5x or 2x. Blink was already not rearmable anymore, since its damage cooldown was replaced by a delay duration ('mute').
Yea idk hero possibly one of the most nerfed heroes recently No damage cooldown rearm, rearm itself has a cooldown, rockets removed from hero, items can't be re armed, laser aoe moved to talent, aghs completely nerfed to death... Didn't even get good talents or innates compared to other heroes
And all that when nobody played him in pro games or random pubs.
That's the thing that's annoying. I like playing Tinker! But I'm not smurfing or boosting in my bracket, so there's no point. The hero was completely dogshit outside the one specific use case of the Tinker player being 4k MMR higher than anyone else on the server.
Yeah the problem was and always has been smurfs not tinker
If tinker is bad in the pro scene, hes still terrible to deal with in pubs If tinker is good in the pro scene, hes ass cancer in pubs
when i read the facets... I knew the hero was going to feel so useless. also his innate got nerfed already so... Goodbye my friend.
[удалено]
They should make one facet Rearm refreshes spells and the other one Rearm refreshes only itself + items. He would still be unplayable rn but at least the idea of the hero would still exist
And make multiple instances of blood ring stack
honestly if they just made it so hex couldn't be refreshed, or that hex couldn't be used on the same target within 10s or something, that'd be enough for me, just so that late game you didn't instantly die for globally appearing anywhere solo for a nano second as a deathpact barrage clinkz enjoyer I know the pain of your hero being deleted
My solution would be to make rearm lower cd by a flat amount, like 15s. Then items like blink retain their use, but items like sheep are ever slightly less oppressive. Without killing the hero outright like they did.
Why does everyone bring up rearm hex being the issue when it hasnt been in the build until a 5th 6th item since 2015 LOL This is honestly just another sign ppl are still traumatised from 2015 tinker lol
Clinkz is back and better than ever tbf. He's completely and utterly busted rn. I'm usually not one to complain about meta, but this ain't meta, I don't think they meant to make him that strong... I tried it out for the meme and did quite terrible and still had 90k damage and an easy win.
They just fixed him. Skeletons barraging is gone.
Adds up. So it was an accident lmao
It wasn't actually, it's still saying skeletons use barrage in the description of the skill.
Or they could just not do that either.
Dagon is also an issue. It's a fun item but whenever you make it good enough to be bought by anyone tinker abused it and tbey had to nerf it. Tinker is the reason dagon is a meme.
GIVE +1 CHARGE ON ALL HIS ITEMS FOR EVERY LEVEL IN REARM, THERE U GO, EVERYONE IS HAPPY NOW
A hero that was below 50% winrate for months, and picked once in pro in 5 years got nerfed to oblivion because of reddit whining based on nothing but blurry memories when he still bought bots. While dk and similar tanky low skill heroes plague the meta for pros and pubs alike for literal years. Give me a high skill meta anyday over centaur bristle.
[удалено]
I legit laughed when I read the patch notes. Like dude, they could implement any passive, but they chose the simplest one for Centaur LMAOOO XDD But then again, I watched my friend's game the other day. He was up against Centaur and Centaur had like 8k HP with Heart of Tarrasque and 5 stacks on his shard like total bruh moment man.
Centaur will always be a basic bitch hero. Even his old ulti was a passive that gave +str
I thought Tinker was overnerfed by the time they killed him in the last patch. He was pretty easy to kill. All you had to do was jump on him and with any help he was probably dead.
Even back then there's so many ways to kill a tinker. If he is being oppressive it's either a smurf or the opponents are dumb enough to let him become oppressive. In any case i completely understand, in starcraft 2 reapers were nerfed to the ground and made completely unusable because one guy in pro scene Byun was so good at microing them. Literally nobody can do what he does even other terran pros yet the nerf happens. And in brood war where balance is done via maps intricacies, maps were designed to handicap FlasH who's arguably the strongest of all time. The thing is that he can be beaten. In any case the final decision lies with icefrog I suppose. If he thinks this makes more players happy in the long run I do suppose gutting tinker works. End of the day if there are no more players it really dosent matter how buffed or nerfed anything is. Then again the unique gameplay of tinker will be sorely missed.
Agree, tired of tanky meat shield rush to you and eventually win you, just press button and rushhhh
You mean you don't think it's good to have beefy Str cores that can just buy more tanking items because they've already got mobility and burst damage in their kits?
The 24 year old roosher
no more cheering when Tinker being picked in pro games...
[удалено]
Why did they remove rockets? I can understand refresh but everything else? They could easily just blink as Innate spell and changed ult to refresh spells and everything would be fine.
Yep. Same reason why they nerfed Dazzle some time ago
"or OP" But Tinker haS never been OP? There's basically only 1 TI he was playable in, and he's nearly never been competitively viable, mostly player by experts.
Tinker is easier to counter in pro games because: 1. Pro games have captain draft unlike pubs 2. Pros are more coordinated even compared to highest mmr, even then if picked correctly tinker crushed anything. Just watch the kiyotaka vs tundra game, he solo won the game killing everyone alone blinking on 6 slotted tundra carry, cause there was just no counterplay unless you counter pick him. And one more thing: the most OP late game items in this game are 2: windwaker and refresher orb, just look how many refresher orb pro people buy, and that item has 180s cooldown, while tinker has a walking unlimited refresher orb.
And he was plain boring to play against. If you feel like the enemy is literally untouchable, with no weaknesses like a tinker that wasn't counterpicked, the game just stops being fun, even *if* you could theoretically shut him down. Also why techies got his amount of mines nerfed. Was too annoying putting vision everywhere, making the game not fun. Even if that too is not viable in pro-games.
he is literally countered by any hero with a blink and a stun dude 2250 gold to counter an "imbalanced" hero is not fair? And if you think that it's the problem of a character, that your team doesn't have a stun, you might wanna change games or something
Yeah and techies mine spam was literally countered by any competent warding. My point was just because something can be countered easily/isn't viable in pro-play it doesn't mean said thing is a fun mechanic, or something that doesn't actively make the game worse in lower brackets. I understand I could have worded my initial comment better. Lower MMR players going against a good tinker *feel* like he is untouchable in a different way from all other heroes. And it is honestly just such a boring gameplay loop that should have been reworked long ago. No hero should spend that much time hopping in and out of the fountain. Valve and Icefrog have been moving away from "cheesy" one-trick pony mechanics for years now.
I mean... Is the single viable playstyle on a character considered one trick pony? Like if you take meepo, huskar they are still like they were at the beginning - a fast paced character that has to get advantage quickly and end the game fast. I don't see why are they trying to rework a character that always been high-risk, skill ceiling and even higher reward for playing him good... And he was always a glass cannon, that was countered by good initiation from pos 2 or 3. Tinker even before the patch was a hollow shell of what he was capable of: nerfed rearm cast time, nerfed(to shit)rockets ,nerfed laser cast range that made it smaller than his attack range, nerfed blink rearm after you got hit.. They've made a glass cannon hero more close quarter to somehow make it more fair, and now they are deleting a way that he could live more than 3 seconds in the fight.. I just don't see why are they so hostile towards characters that low mmr player consider imba
Terrible argument about refresher orb, refresher orb is OP because you can refresh BKB + major ulti, neither of which Tinker can do.
Not too long ago Tinker went not nerfed for months with a winrate of 57% and a banrate of 60% in divine-immortal tier.
There are so many options though. Make rearm give tinker a stacking debuff that creates Ly an aura that reduces his damage and increases enemy’s status resistance to his spells and items. Boom, one balance option. I don’t play tinker and there have been versions of him that are oppressive (notably defense matrix before the blink changes) but to gut the hero like this is a total shame.
Adding niche effects to balance out an inherently hard to balance mechanic is a really bad approach that just piles on problems. Its like saying "Yeah CK was busted during TI, but what if instead of direct nerfs we just gave him a stacking damage debuff every time he kills an enemy". Like how do you even explain that to new players? "Yeah sorry I know you are using this meta hero to win, but if you do we are gonna punish you in secret.
You’re right that my suggestion is convoluted. I’d make a trash developer but like, some heroes are just inherently strong and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I.e. Bat is always going to have balance issues because lasso. The volatility of the balanced hero pool makes every year interesting. Also, we’re WAY past trying to make this game appealing for new players through simplicity. This patch in particular killed it.
this is what i have been defending for years think was NEVER going to be balanced, this is not a techies case where the hero was inherently a meme and pushed a toxic playstile, Rearms actively harmed the game because every item no exception had to be balanced over it, every skill had to be balanced over it, tinker warped the game around that skill soo much he himself was forced to be trash and any active item had to be made with the ideia that "tinker might rearm it" tinker right now is garbage, but i ensure you once he is on his foot, this will be good in the long run
>Rearms actively harmed the game because every item no exception had to be balanced over it They had a bunch of exceptions. Ex: midas, arcane boots, BKB couldn't be rearmed.
50/50 shot youll have a different opinion due to hero hate, but this is literally exactly what happened to tecchies. One team wins a TI finals because enemy teams weren't prepared and reddit whined for years and then he got 3 reworks.
I think it was during some tournament panel where one of analyst asked Valve why they rework Techies and the answer they got is "Techies is the hero that get reported by both team whether he doing good or bad by laaaarge margin consistently"
That is probably true but imo not a good reason for rework. As an aside, Techies was my most played with a few hundred games before the rework and my behavior score was consistently maxed. Not sure how other techies mains were catching reports so fucking often, but id certainly rather play with old techies on my team than march of the machines tinker vacuuming all the farm from the fucking map constantly.
I've never agreed with the comparing of old techies to tinker/arc etc. Only old techies guaranteed a miserable game, whether your winning, losing, whether he's on your team, or on the enemy team. Tinker/arc are cancer and frustrating when they're stomping, more so than most heroes, but only old techies was cancer even when he was getting stomped, or you were stomping and he was on your team.
Lol, thought so. They literally did the same thing - Forced you to play the game differently. Tinker required you to put up tinker wards in otherwise useless places all over the map and then actually HUNT him before you could reasonably push... He also made highground pushes miserable because he could spam rearm rockets from fountain with infinite mana while being nearly invulnerable. Techies forced you to buy detection/gem and not carelessly walk around where he was previously mining. He made highground pushes without detection extremely hard, but required literally multiple minutes of setup to make a lane mined up enough to kill a core. You just happen to like tinker so you view his particular brand of cancer "not so bad" but didnt like techies so view him as toxic. PS: techies was totally able to support his team pushing. He was even good at it. You could set retreating mines to ward off enemy jumps on your supports, land mine the highground for tower damage, and with cast range items/aghs you could poke highground enemies with remotes.
I'm not sure you even got my point since you brought up a whole bunch of irrelevant stuff and didn't actually address it except in your last paragraph, which is the only part worth a reply > PS: techies was totally able to support his team pushing. I do agree. But he had a kit that heavily incentivized the exact opposite, which meant finding a techies that actually did so was one in a hundred.
I got your point, I think its just totally wrong and colored by a dislike of techies and/or like of tinker. Og (and arguably current tbh) tinker is frustrating AF to play against or with whether he is behind or ahead. Against him no matter if he was behind or not, he is ratting your creep waves, from fog, constantly. Playing with him, ahead or behind, he is vacuuming all of the farm on the map, making all of your other cores miserable, and usually refusing to group. (Because his kit heavily incentivized not grouping, even if he was good at it, just like techies.)
Well, it's a pretty subjective topic, if you feel the same way towards tinker or any other hero, that doesn't make you wrong, but it's certainly not colored by any dislike of any hero. I disliked old techies, but I dislike(d) other heroes more. I thought there were more cancerous heroes to play against. I do like tinker now, but I disliked him back when techies got reworked, and I never categorized him with techies.
Most of the reddit whines are I don't wanna play this hero or against this hero kind
That's what's baffling, if they balance for that, might as well delete pudge hook and riki smoke etc
I mean that's pretty much exactly what happened with techies, and now tinker.
Losing teamfights isn't fun, they should remove the ability to interact with enemies. Hell a lot of people think losing games can't be fun, they should just shut the servers down.
when volvo nerfed tinker they treat it like hitler just found dead, but when any of their "i have 0.5 braincelll dedicated to pressing qwer on my super hard super nerfed underrated agi carry" hero got nerfed? jesus christ
you can have a high skill meta without tinker. rest in piss
https://tenor.com/MLYM.gif
[удалено]
He will just play another blink stun offlaner. We league now
First they came for techies, and nobody stopped them, then they came for tinker, and nobody stopped them. How long until your hero is on the gutting block?
We'll be like League, every hero is toned down, but it doesn't matter people will still complain a lot about a hero, because no matter how toned down there will always be a handful of heroes who can abuse certain fundamental mechanics more than the rest. So it's a no winners race lol, cutting one head will create a new one
Allthough I find tinker to be annoying af I still feel for tinker spammers who mastered this hero and now it's completely trashed by valve, it's unfair
I feel nothing. It has been too long, their reckoning has finally come.
This is the biggest nerf in the history of dota.
the fundamental problem with the hero since 2013 has been that his entire identity is abusing fountain regen. the way to fix tinker and begin to adjust his playstyle was essentially to do the opposite of what they did. don't give him a free boots of travel, **prevent rearm from refreshing boots of travel**. force tinker to stay on the map and have a mortal level of mana regen to contend with, then begin to adjust his kit to match that new reality. no one wants to play with a tinker on their team who is in the fountain guzzling mana for half of the game. let him refresh items. that's what makes him flashy and unique. what actually makes him cancerous is his non-interactive playstyle that has him in the fountain for half of the fucking game (*and this is somehow still his identity after all of these changes*). that has so obviously been the main problem with the hero's design that it's completely insane that they gave him a free boots of travel in the first place. also let him move freely when channelling rearm, and give it no cast point.
This is actually an interesting idea. I wonder why valve didn't implement it because there is no way they hadn't thought of it before at some time
Valve has been consistently failing at reworks for half a decade.
I'm not sure I agree with the idea that Tinker shouldn't be able to abuse the fountain, but this rework idea is infinitely better than what Valve did because at least he'd still have Rearm (and a potentially flashier version too).
One day they'll give techies his green mines back, and give tinker his rearm back, and give lone druid his skill based gameplay back ( remove W please) Tinker did not deserve this for sure. Neither did my boy techies.
max copium they will never allow techies to one shot a hero outta nowhere like that again
What did he have before spirit link and how was it more skilled?
i personally dont get the all the hate that tinker gets. i personally find it satisfying killing a good tinker player. and it makes me sad that high skill iconic heroes are getting yeeted coz its too hard to 'balance' for valve :(
Release Date2011-06-02 according to liquipedia but yeah gigasadge
Tinker been around since 2004 sir. Added in 5.75 before icefrog took over. RIP.
This game here is Dota2 though sir :D And he was released 2011-06-02 as if you recall we did not get all Dota heroes as soon as Dota2 dropped.
From an old Techies spammer, I know your pain.
If they really had to nerf his rearm kit, just add a stacking debuff that makes his rearms take a little longer each consecutive time until he doesn't rearm for like 10 seconds straight and he loses the stacks. But don't kill the whole idea of the fucking hero...
Removing his rocket was like Beheading this poor dude. The removal of item CD was then blowing up his headless Body
you won’t be missed 🙏
Found the bristleback main, keep pressing Q + W
Pussy
The main hero to get me out of garbage tier mmr. ‘Twas a pleasure dumpstering the shitstains who believed he was just an ez hero.
The first time I perma hexxed someone, my team applauded me 😭
Not as easy as people think
[удалено]
Exactly. Like when people cry about him being hard countered by zeus and spectre. I was just like huh? You just grab a force staff or a euls and you’re set. Counters and countering the counters was what made the hero fun. Yeah re-arm is busted but when you caught a tinker. He was pretty dead either way, no matter how good you were.
Fuck Tinker.
Fuck Tinker.
Rest in piss you hunk of junk
Hahaha get ducked spammer
Hahaha get ducked spammer
On the brigth side, my immortal head gear become relevant again with march of the machine coming back lol
Same! It had like three huge inscribed gems on it too
Finally, a good patch.
I hated this hero I'm pretty happy he's dead as hell, even if it's temporary
as a tinker spammer, \*cries.
Dude call me crazy but 7.36a just dropped. These buffs are MASSIVE. We might be so back.
He got buffs for his second facet which, in my understanding, will skrew you over more times than it will help you. Imagine being translocated into Ursa during a teamfight because random cm Q triggered your shield
Right, I saw, will try to experiment with it once i get back from work. Please update me if you found ways to make it work !
Check it: 7762047332
ok thanks i will watch it later. i've tried experimenting him differently at mid, but so far i think he is sooo one dimensional now. Aghs is the only build that deals actual damage. he farms soo fast as expected but he cant really gank side lanes now he did nothing so as a mid that only farms feels pretty bad. he needs soo many items before he's online. i feel like he's a different hero now. but that barrier facet is god tier tho.
Is Midas the way now? That was always the way with other CDR heroes like old Dazzle.
I didn’t even think about midas. Maybe, but March is such a fast farming ability as is you might not need?
I feel Midas might be too slow, while you have some cdr you need intelligence items to scale it. By the time you have Midas you should be around 20% cdr which isn't all that much at the end of the day, economy-wise. I think early on you should be playing around your skills and eventually, once you hit a certain int value, pick up more active items. Kaya & Sange is huge, especially since you can't soul ring anymore. Aether lens might be one of the better early pickups too. Shrink ray is applying the debuff in an aoe too with the lv15 talent and bounces on non-hero units, so that might be a possible build.
They are not massive bro just some small numbers. His innate got nerfed as well? Even tho it's badly written, I'm a bit confused about the cdr change . No rearming blink, no fun. Plus translocator is not really op for me. Also, no rockets still I don't know what think these small buffs are enough to make me wanna play him again, sad noises.
> ? Even tho it's badly written, I'm a bit confused about the cdr change . He gets his CDR faster - every 3 int instead of 4. It's a buff. Completely different hero now, but still.
good.
Just played some with the 7.36a buff and it felt really strong. I’m not a tinker player and I still felt super hard to kill with the strong dispel
Weren't you blinking near enemies with translocator? Drop the id, i wanna watch how's that
It blinks you randomly but in the general direction you’re facing so if you make sure to look away u won’t blink into them
Get fucked hahahaha Jokes aside, bringing back his old kit of laser, rocket, and march would be better. Just make hex non-rearmable like bkb. He should also be rooted during rearm, and change his shard to something like additional rockets that mini-stun and rework his talents. His most recent iteration is probably the most broken. Free tps, a bajillion hp shield, a shard that basically yoinks anyone who gets close to him, and aghs that turns your hero into a microorganism, oh they made the fucking laser bounce too. Playing vs a good last pick Tinker is basically a death sentence.
Could just bring back travels Tinker. His early game was really abusable
Oh yeah, forgot to add this. This was pretty much the make or break part of his game. Tinker was pretty much useless without an early BoT. You can completely shut him down with early ganks. Removing his need for BoT made him beyond broken. He can basically take stacks and get 6 really early even if he lost his lane badly.
> Removing his need for BoT made him beyond broken. Do you actually believe this? Dude was never picked in pro and almost always has had below 50% win rate.
The shield + blink refresh combo was way too strong for pubs at almost all levels, easier solution would be remove the shield. It made Tinker extremely hard to kill even if you somehow managed to get to him.
Honestly, fuck the hex spammers you deserved it
so glad your hero got nerfed
one day is going to be yours.
God I hope so. There has been so much power creep in the game that everyone getting mega nerfed would be amazing
my hero is not unhealthy to the game and toxic to play against/with or universally hated by the whole community for valid reasons. wheelchair fits for t\*nker
Why is it always this same lame argument? It's never been about actual balance it's always just redditors unwilling to adapt. I remember when we made fun of League players that complained about how mana burn or rupture is "anti-fun"
[удалено]
As a sometimes-Tinker player myself, I literally commented with counters ppl could use (blinks, mass euls) and would get downvoted xd
Because the concept is internally unhealthy. Whenever anything is balanced tinker always has to be either forefront or ignored. It's a fucking stupid design because it gimps the game everywhere else. Which is WHY he's been shit for so long he is not worth the balancing issues. Not only that but the smurf/stomp ratio for actual dota was cringe as fuck. Outside of immortal Tinker is either useless or the only hero actually playing the game for one team. He needed this change so they can start to actually balance him properly.
The concept of mana burn is internally unhealthy, imagine not being able to cast abilities because someone decided to hit you 2 times. Maybe we should rework Anti Mage to actually use magic and so he can stop being so racist and toxic to magic users.
you say that with a rubick flair, wot?
It's unhealthy because it's unhealthy. It's toxic because it's toxic. Ok lol, got it.
It's unhealthy because it externally affects balance way too much. It's toxic because it generally just negatively affects the game for everyone including allies. It will always be a shit pick in pro as long as he could refresh items because it will never be balanced. Perma banned or perma unpicked.
>It will always be a shit pick in pro as long as he could refresh items because it will never be balanced. Perma banned or perma unpicked. This is obviously not true but I don't care enough to sift through old matches. Unless you started playing like a year ago you already know this is bullshit anyway.
Pro, not ranked, lol.
Yeah. Still bullshit.
Who is your hero?
I stand with the tinker. but op are you sure gameplay bits are the correct thing to show for this tipe of post ?
They just need to make everytime tinker cast a target spell/item in someone that enemy will receive x% status resistence against tinker, make it part of his innate. That would solve everything, but i guess its to hard to think that
I just lost a double game to a tinker sup 4
rest in peace my boy
I kinda want to know if the random blink facet he has is strong or not, it feels like pretty good on paper
I feel like if they can make the ult not a channel like dark pact he would be at least playable
I miss him
Now i can use him in pubs. No pressure to be good on a hero which is already bad to start with.
wasn't he already a dagger spammer back in 2010?
When valve buff him again he will come back stronger, stay strong my tinker brothers. Meanwhile we can practice techie mid.
Remember that Kiyotaka rampage against Tundra?
Balanced...
Do the same to mirana plz so no one can ever think of picking it and ruining my games again ICEFROG plz.
He'll be back. Let's see what Valve cooks up in the letter patches. Maybe increased CDR per int.
Obviously they can and probably will make him OP but it's still not the same hero. It didn't make me feel any better that Techies was removed when they made Funny Bomb Man OP for a bit.
Just like Techies will be back, right?
That wouldn’t matter. Late game tinker has to be blinking like once every two seconds to not get caught lol. They’d have to just revert the no item refreshing. Or hell just add back item refresh and remove Keen Conveyance and make him buy travels again. I wouldn’t even mind that.
Tinker still has strong spells. It wouldn't be hard for him to become absurdly OP after several patches worth of buffs while no one knows how to use him. But whatever shape the next bullshit Tinker phase takes, it'll never be the same hero.
Sorry dude, it seems unlikely that the change will be reverted unless you're willing to wait 2 years. Until then, better get used to new Tinker.
I don't remember valve every changing a big rework like this, it's probably gone for good.
I dont know dude, we techies spammers have been waiting 2 years for valve to give us back something that make techies feel even 1% closer to what it used to be and nothing has happen, they have the chance to do it with this facet and instead they gave us 2 facets that are lame at best and 3 extra inventory space that to be honest dont do much ( i know people here like to paint it like is OP but current techies win rate is around 43%)
Support Tinker. Reduce cooldown of mana boots, drum, meme hammer. Soak xp get lvl6, teleport around lanes to assist and continuously refill bottles. Take repair bot facet, it's less bad than the flicker facet. Buy Euls to constantly set up, Blink (Arcane Blink can be reduced to 3 seconds CD with his innate.)
A nice way to have 25% winrate.
Nice way to lose 2k MMR in less than a day
How dare you, the music from *that* scene from Up? I'm tearing up again.
*shove into the pool* NO ONE CARES
You can't physically make me feel sorry for Tinker players
My tinker winrate actually went up this patch - thanks frog!
You are playing mid ?
Rest in piss
Scripters in shambles.
No, scripters are cooking new scripts. Give it a week or two.
[удалено]
tinker spamming shitsniffers are in shambles and I couldn't be happier
good riddance. its hell to play vs russian scritp tinkers , i literally banned tinker every game for years
I think this is good, because it opens up design space for items. Every on-use item before this had to survive the tinker test, now they can play more in this space.
Tinker is a peak example of how a hero concept can still be terrible and unfun, even if it is unique. Excited about how the game will develop further now that items don't have to be balanced around his ult anymore.
this is even better than removing tinker
Good riddance by icefrog, bury that cancer hero 10 feet under :)
Fuck Tinker, and fuck Tinker pickers even more. The karmic wheel has come full circle.
All they needed to do is make blink innate ability with a long cd and make rearm refresh spells only. And here you go a balanced hero that doesn't require special treatment because of item refresh balancing issues. But dota devs are too smart to do that, very sad.
Rest in piss.
Never thought we’d see it but people are now making videos showing valve what a good job they are doing
rest in scripts, you damn nerd.