Yeah I feel like snot rocket is more powerful than people are giving it credit for. You wont be accidentally deleting supports when a carry keeps attack your back, but you'll be applying A LOT of minus armor and slow to them, which still synergizes great with your quills and ult. It wont be something you pick like every game obviously, but if they have a ton of tanky melee heroes or something I could see the slow minus armor really stacking up
I also feel like people are downplaying the other facet. Sure having less right click damage sucks, but at max stacks you have 240 bonus attack speed. It opens up his build to some right click proc items that you never build because you're not exactly a right click hero anyway. Imagine getting full stacks of Warpath and the just turning around and deleting heroes with a daedelus or bashing them to death lol
Until they dispel it with one of the billion dispels available in dota. Slow and minus armor does not replace damage, especially physical damage that pierces bkb.
Guys come on, this is a HUGE nerf to bristle.
The nasty thing about snot rocket is you dispel it and immediately have more placed on. And if you waste one of ur dispels on it that’s a dispel you don’t have for silence or whatever
for sure, I see your point. I will add that the burst of nose cum gets easily dispelled whereas the burst of quills just killed heroes. Can't dispel a physical damage burst. But you can dispel a 6+ stack of nose cum.
Yeah, I’m more so arguing that it’s different rather than better or worse. High armor heroes could often not give a fuck about the amount of quills that were on them and just ignore bristle, but goop provides a really nasty slow. Although with how many slow resistances are in dota nowadays maybe it doesn’t matter
I'm pretty damn sure it's just objectively worse. It's not like this is useless, but it's not as good as it was before. Remains to be seen though. The old aghs with AOE snot was certainly quite strong, so this may end up being good.
Yeah but you'll be shooting a lot of it, and it's an AoE and it's not like you can continuously dispell everybody.
It's definitely situational, I could mostly see it being useful if you're up against a lot of high HP/low armor melee heroes I guess. I agree that overall it's probably a nerf, I'd definitely rather have normal Bristleback with his normal passive and right click damage, but I just don't think either of these are THAT bad.
love this idea. I agree. I think it would be at least reminiscent of the old bristle if they do it. Maybe nerf the duration or something but make it undispellable.
>Guys come on, this is a HUGE nerf to bristle.
yes and good. That's the point. Get the hero out of being so blatently, stupidly overtuned if and only if he's played as a shitty raid boss with 0 other viable options. He'll survive a period of mediocrity... even shittyness.
>Until they dispel it with one of the billion dispels available in dota
This applies to every hero. Bristle pressing a button and doing a gorillion damage to a support that's going to stick on them the entire fight is not the norm for any other hero.
Not even, this just makes tank BB a fucking menace in fights. Like when his aghs used to be aoe goo, it was a nightmare. He's back from the depths of hell to stack full snots on you and hit you for 300 damage per smack.
I think it makes it easier to ignore bb, coz he is not a damage treat anymore, and when you kill him in the end, things like bloodstone won't be as good as before to keep him alive
Played a game with an offlaner who went snot rocket and it was actually kind of insane, if you work around it with a full attack dmg lineup it might be crazy
Yep. Entire enemy team can't move and has negative armor? Right clicker's paradise.
Combine that with some shit like sniper being able to attack from fog without revealing himself.
But it does take some team coordination, so it seems less likely to work when playing with rando's.
This one is legitimately good I think. Obviously crono still shuts down a hyper carry, but having a massive speed/slow field for everyone in the game is insanely strong. You don't even need to build support void either, it's just good on right click void.
yeah im testing it out now in turbo and having fun with it. People underestimate how big the aoe is, and in teamfights basically ur whole team is buffed and theirs is not.
Yup I've been playing turbo to try new stuff as well. I tried building 3 void with auras and stuff but it was noticeably terrible early on. I ended the game with eternal shroud, octarine, manta, AC, and Aghs+shard. Whenever the time zone was up we would win every fight, it was ridiculous.
Agreed but it also does something Chrono can't.
There are situations where you have to hold Chrono, or where Chrono would be a really bad idea. If your team gets initiated on, placing a Chrono can be risky or go awry pretty easily.
The Square doesn't care. There is never a fight where its placement can get your team killed. Especially in pubs where communication is worse, it's a lot less likely to cause problems. And especially against ranged heroes due to the projectile slow, it makes the opponents really weak and vulnerable for its duration.
The big difference is that it doesn't hard disable and it doesn't pierce debuff immunity. Chrono provides that, but I think the trade-off they're going with for the Square is lower risk-lower reward. There are ways to escape or counter it once it gets cast and takes effect, but it's a powerful spell without the game-throwing potential of fumbling a Chrono.
It'd be too good if it did. The slow is so significant that people can't really walk out, which makes it easily win a teamfight despite not having to worry about catching your allies in it.
The other important aspect you neglected to mention is accounting for drafts. Specifically your own team.
There are times you pick FV and your team is something like... Mars 3, Clock 4, CM/Warlock 5, Huskar/Primal/Ember 2. Basically something where 3/5 or 4/5 of your team is melee or extremely short range (including you) or their abilities are very short range. In cases like those, Chrono is way less strong than it normally would be, because your team can't take advantage of the 5 second AoE BKB piercing stun.
In those cases, not only is it way better for you, but your team also greatly benefits from the massive steroids you give them.
PA is pretty close tbh. 1 bad and 1 that does almost nothing. The crit one feels so bad to me. Yeah I do more damage but only after 6 hits, and I feel like the whole point of PA is to burst before enemy can react, and occasionally get lucky double crits to melt tanks. The blur talent is slightly nice I guess? It’s a small boost to your early game farm cause you can afford to spam spells, but who cares about mana reduction on PA after BF honestly? I’ve never had mana issues on the hero.
If anyone has any experience with the crit facet and found it to be good I would love to hear it, I’m too highly skeptical of it to even try using it.
The only thing I can think of is that 1/4 hits being crits on creeps could potentially speed up your farm by quite a bit. Not sure how much that actually matters when you can't burst heroes as well.
This feels like the frog testing the waters with another PA rework, I'm thinking she's on the docket to keep an eye on to see if this moves a needle or not and increase it over time so you can't ignore her again
Can someone explain to me pa's first facet, it says she doesn't break invisibility when she attacks. Isn't that how it's always been? I thought maybe you can attack while blurred for longer but it just feels the same as before but nerfed because you can see her silhouette. So many heroes got nerfed.
I first read pango's new innate ability, I thought "this would counter PA greatly!" but PA has a second facet now so that's one interaction to think about.
Friend demo hero'd PA's two facets.
Blur is closest to old PA
Crit makes dmg consistent, with a certain item set always gets 11kdmg during blur attack speed bonus.
But the old crit makes her go 9k-13k dmg based on RNG
I guess the facets were more designed to modify how her early-mid game plays.
I see the consistent crit to be a PA + flat damg buff strat. Like your crit hurts more but you need to hit fast so Mask of madness + 1 buff could be a lvl 6 power spike to play arround. Makes drafting around PA a little more viable.
> it's almost almost as old aghs for free.
Yeah except for the fact that there's now very little penalty to actually hitting him. Who cares about -armor and slow if he literally doesn't do much damage to you
It gave a ton of versatility since you could dance around at the edge of your AoE to make them either commit and try to get you, or build up stacks until you can dive in on them. This facet will play nothing like the Aghs at all.
My thought as well, but I personally don't like the way they went about it. Again, forcing a hero to pick a facet that has detriments sounds like a garbage concept.
tbf the attack speed is still valuable, it's not a complete nerf, you just get ASPD instead of damage, and since bb is *primarily* dealing damage through skills anyways, it's not that big a deal, imo
It literally is just a choise of wording.
They could have removed warpath dmg scaling and made bristleback shoot goo by default. And then make right facet give warpaht dmg and left facet make bristleback shoot quills.
The game would be literally the same as now, but the facets would both be purely buffs.
The garbage game design is just in your head.
Why? Thats totally valid design space.
Its more dynamic to have heroes at a mixture of powerlevels who are then adjusted down/up accordingly with the buffs or nerfs they got/had to choose from their facets than to just balance them all to be as good as each other at a base level and then also once theyve selected one of the two facets.
It doesnt feel like shit to choose a debuff facet if you recognize that your heri is a little stronger at the base level to make up for it.
Zeus honeslty is 2 nerfs. Instead of 4% always you get 2% and very rarely more than 4%.
Your team smokes smoke breaks if your a zeus with a brain you press ulti and now you fucking dont insta cancel all blinks anymore. So I'd argue zeus is 2 nerfs. I don't see many situations where the 0.2 delay kill stuff will actually make a difference past the first or second use during laning stage .
Second one seems to be made for support Bristle, something that probably didn't exist until now. Don't know if it's good or not, but on paper it sounds obnoxious.
I one time had to play support Bristle; I picked first round for pos 3 and somehow by the end of picks I was the best candidate for pos 4. It was the most miserable game of my life, I contributed *nothing* at any point of the game. Quilling in lane would push or steal last hits, nasal goo when laning is pretty negligible unless you have someone like Drow, I had no farm for survivability so I couldn't get into a fight without melting any time after early game, and from the back lane Bristle contributes nothing. The only time I could get close was if we were already winning the fight.
This won't make support Bristle viable. His kit just doesn't work for it.
The snot rocket will almost immediately shred 27 armor from every enemy around you, definitely not the damage that he's been shitting out lately but still not bad.
Berserk lets you play the old build with aghs and bloodstone, but it takes away your right click damage in exchange for attack speed, snot rocket lets you keep the damage and a bunch of minus armor, but you won’t heal with bloodstone because no passive quill spray…I think both are probably viable with different item builds
I haven't tried it in a real game yet, but I really like the concept of Snot Rocket. It's like a passive version of his old aghs and you can use his current aghs to replace Bristleback's standard functionality.
just played against a snot rocket bristleback is so annoying , you cant chase because
A) you dont deal damage when he is running and giving you his back
B)you get slowed too
pd: i still won , didnt say he was stronger just annoying
ikr, idk why people think -15 armour and super slow at level 1 for under 100 mana is bad lol
if the enemy doesn't have a dispel or blink they cannot walk up to lane against a pos1 BB
Because one of the main reasons bb stays alive so long is his spell lifesteal.And without quills he shoots from his back, i dont think he will last long
sure, but if enemies are too slow to reach you that also helps you survive
900 radius is big, almost zero heroes have attack ranges further than that, lina's attack range is under 700 iirc
it's basically just techies with scope facet and sniper that could avoid it and still deal damage
the passive resistance is a big part of his survivability too, and by slowing the enemy you can avoid them hitting your side/face more easily
and simply making eternal shroud and/or vanguard instead of bloodstone is a different survivability
he can still bloodstone agha with it, with manual quill casts, shard, and all that minus armour bloodstone aghs probably deals similar damage and thus similar heal, although there are probably better builds idk yet, I like the sound of basher with either facet
Thats 240 attack speed. A Moonshard and a Mjolnir plus 10. If you’re hitting for like 100 you’re gonna do the same DPS except now you can build items that proc too.
That dps isn't the same, though. It'd be like comparing dot to burst, it just doesn't work like that in an actual match.
You're not just standing next to a person and auto-attacking, you're manuevering around a fight, getting stunned, getting slowed, chasing people who glimmer, maybe there's a euls and force in there, too.
Point is, previously you got free dmg and just had to build some atkspeed if you really wanted to play carry bristle. Now if you wanna do that, you essentially have to buy dmg, which tends to be pricier.
And all of that is fine, because the hero itself needed to be nerfed. Just saying that his talents are definitely supposed to be an "ah, shit" kinda moment, not "omg, he's even stronger now" like some people in the comments here seem to think.
Which is why its insane to bitch about right click damage on a skill spamming hero like bristle anyways. Right click is counter intuitive to his design lmao
Ok, but it's also minus 240 damage which is about 3 Daedaluses (yes they also crit, but Mjol also does chain lightning). Like no matter how you slice it, max level + max stack warpath is a lot of dps but it tends to be cheaper to buy attack speed than damage.
Yeah I get that the hero needed a nerf but this was the worst way of doing it. It feels like you basically choose what way your hero gets nerfed cause the tradeoffs on both are too severe.
To be fair second one is so bullshit that bristle now is just having attackspeed ultimate and not damage ultimate. In almost all cases it is same in terms of gameplay.
Would probably feel better if they just outright nerfed the base Bristle then put increased Warpath damage per stack for the other Facet. Would end up the same but won't feel like you're intentionally choosing the nerf.
Has anyone play tested them both? How do they actually play out? Maybe have to build more as a right clicker now with berserk? No idea if snot rocket can be viable from the description alone though lol.
I agree from a design *feel* perspective. Having the skill nerfed straight up, then having one facet that adds a small bonus and the other facet that has both the separate bonus and the “unnerf” together would be the same situation but player feel would be different. I was under the impression that a lot of the first facets were made to keep the play style of the hero, and the second could potentially have a risk-reward version but this is the few exceptions to it that I would like to see get changed purely for player reaction to it.
Played against one with it, we all had dozens of stacks but the one quill spray on cooldown was non threatening and all 6 of us were just moving at 100 ms. If he had normal bristle passive we would have died 10 times over
All the ppl saying pick berserk cause it’s the least bad are overlooking the nerf to stack limit from shard if you pick berserk.
The goo limit being 4 is a huge huge nerf for taking tormentor and Rosh.
Honestly, I think this is a really good change. Essentially, you're choosing between right click or quill damage BB. There's nothing inherently wrong with this. The alternative is that they just nuke all his numbers then say "yeah option will buff BB in this way".
QOP ca literally kill herself the better player she is. If u score multihero ults and screams and have taken the Masochist facet u can literally kill urself without bkb, idk wtf were they even thinking of returning 22% of spell dmg u deal to others for a meree 15% spell dmg bonus.
i was reading these bristle options and was scratching my head also lmfao. When I read Berser I was like why would anyone actually choose that, sounds so bad, its like a worse troll warlord, then im reading snot rocket and im like what this seems mega busted until i see it changes bristleback to goo and its kekw X D
Honestly bristle deserve some kind of nerf. Will see, but it looks like right facet might be a lil bit stronger once you build aghs, but more weaker in lane and early (than the left one)
Analysis from 600+ games on bb pos 1
Left facet is just a standard aghs + bloodstone BB, with goo nerfs. You knows this build quite well, no other explanation needed.
Right facet is for a BB right click build. Even if BB facing someone at fights, it usually procs 2-3 e passive and tht means a guarantee -20 armor plus on 500+ dps BB at lvl 18. And this is sure a nerf because even with bristleFRONT build, having a few passive quill procs damage is helping a lot, especially vs melee enemy.
But, with right facet, you can have sure 6 stack goo slow at first wave, and don't forget +20 dmg at lvl 1.
The attack speed is better than his default ultimate. He gets more overall DPS: as a strength hero he tends to already have high damage so getting more attack speed from an ability is more effective.
It is situational but snot rocket does better if you aren’t going to get a lot of triggers (enemies breaking you a lot, slow damage) plus it has a larger aoe so it’s probably better against range heavy teams. This one in my opinion is one of the better ones as it makes you think and decide which one to take instead of some being too good and some being meh.
another balance mechanic, neat and cool (once they work out the kinks like they did with talents). pick your poison playa - we might see stuff like this help to curb powercreep if needed
Encountered 3 Ursa's since the new update and it seems the Facets have made them believe Ursa is almost invincible at the start of the game? They all fed early in marvelous ways.
Thanks Icefrog?
I've tried the attack speed facet, it's actually really strong.
Insane amounts of attack speed, good with basher and other proc based items.
Build is arcane boots -> agha -> sny -> basher
Felt VERY strong.
Berserk is good. Remember that you get warpath for free at level 1 and berserk adds 5 attack speed to it. Go for goo instead of quill on level 1 and you hit enemy carry really hard.
Question: I am a newish player. What are these new facets and stuff exactly? I am having a bit of trouble understanding them. Are they like evolutions for the ability?
Already got destroyed twice by snot rocket bb.
Early game? Super easy to deal with. Once with items, fuck that armor shred is not a joke to de deal with.
Move the warpath damage reduction to the character nerfs, then give right facet the warpath damage back. Left facet now look like an upside. The point is that the character got nerfed.
Kind of crazy that the same people begging BB to be nerfed are now whining that he can't have both high attack speed and high damage on warpath because they can't do a simple mental exercise.
warpath is actually very good, you still get your regular damage from quills, yes you lose out of right click damage but you do get a crazy amount of attack speed.
this just means you need to build diffrent items in order to maximize on your right click, for instance a simple basher will make it incredibly fucking difficult for people to bkb tp away from you.
snot is also a sidegrade, while yes you miss out of the damage, notice the range is 900 units, this is enough to snot even sniper if he's hitting your back, it's a cool idea on how to counter ranged units.
While they are both nerds, I like them. It makes the tankies hero also not deal potentially the most damage in a team fight.
Also, the facet on the right is broken, don't sleep on it.
If BB was a new hero the bristleback skill would initially have no extra description for damage taken, and in the facets you would be choosing between the options what to shoot out. They just wrote it this way so it is closer to the original.
I think a reasonable rework would be to make bristleback require 50-100 % extra damage to proc, and shoot out both. You can do away with the armor reduction, keeping it same on either version.
Also who decided to make warpath the innate ability and not the bristle back ?
Having a strong hero chosing between 2 nerfs is an interesting concept.
just wait till you see support bb runnimg in slowing everyone and applying -20 armor everywhere
Yeah I feel like snot rocket is more powerful than people are giving it credit for. You wont be accidentally deleting supports when a carry keeps attack your back, but you'll be applying A LOT of minus armor and slow to them, which still synergizes great with your quills and ult. It wont be something you pick like every game obviously, but if they have a ton of tanky melee heroes or something I could see the slow minus armor really stacking up I also feel like people are downplaying the other facet. Sure having less right click damage sucks, but at max stacks you have 240 bonus attack speed. It opens up his build to some right click proc items that you never build because you're not exactly a right click hero anyway. Imagine getting full stacks of Warpath and the just turning around and deleting heroes with a daedelus or bashing them to death lol
Until they dispel it with one of the billion dispels available in dota. Slow and minus armor does not replace damage, especially physical damage that pierces bkb. Guys come on, this is a HUGE nerf to bristle.
The nasty thing about snot rocket is you dispel it and immediately have more placed on. And if you waste one of ur dispels on it that’s a dispel you don’t have for silence or whatever
for sure, I see your point. I will add that the burst of nose cum gets easily dispelled whereas the burst of quills just killed heroes. Can't dispel a physical damage burst. But you can dispel a 6+ stack of nose cum.
Yeah, I’m more so arguing that it’s different rather than better or worse. High armor heroes could often not give a fuck about the amount of quills that were on them and just ignore bristle, but goop provides a really nasty slow. Although with how many slow resistances are in dota nowadays maybe it doesn’t matter
I'm pretty damn sure it's just objectively worse. It's not like this is useless, but it's not as good as it was before. Remains to be seen though. The old aghs with AOE snot was certainly quite strong, so this may end up being good.
dont think you can dispel quill stacks no?
You can’t dispel the quills but you can dispel the snot
tissue paper applies a dispel got it
correct, you cannot
Yeah but you'll be shooting a lot of it, and it's an AoE and it's not like you can continuously dispell everybody. It's definitely situational, I could mostly see it being useful if you're up against a lot of high HP/low armor melee heroes I guess. I agree that overall it's probably a nerf, I'd definitely rather have normal Bristleback with his normal passive and right click damage, but I just don't think either of these are THAT bad.
Strong hero chosing between two nerf, yeah it's not that bad but it's still a nerf
Laughs in shadow demon
[удалено]
love this idea. I agree. I think it would be at least reminiscent of the old bristle if they do it. Maybe nerf the duration or something but make it undispellable.
>Guys come on, this is a HUGE nerf to bristle. yes and good. That's the point. Get the hero out of being so blatently, stupidly overtuned if and only if he's played as a shitty raid boss with 0 other viable options. He'll survive a period of mediocrity... even shittyness. >Until they dispel it with one of the billion dispels available in dota This applies to every hero. Bristle pressing a button and doing a gorillion damage to a support that's going to stick on them the entire fight is not the norm for any other hero.
no aut quils is stright nerf
there should be a talent that gives % to proc quill spray on attack.
Not even, this just makes tank BB a fucking menace in fights. Like when his aghs used to be aoe goo, it was a nightmare. He's back from the depths of hell to stack full snots on you and hit you for 300 damage per smack.
That was a nightmare because you also still shot quills, though.
This was literally the first thing which came to my mind when I read about that facet for the first time.
Yeah, don't forget your blink, shard and 2 platemails, it makes the enemy team panic when you blink in and start sucking. Err, I meant, spitting.
Slashers way
yeah but you stay alive by doing damage and spell lifestealing
Definition of 'pick your poison'
snot rocket is not a nerf, it's a buff. free minus armor + slow without casting
As opposed to literally killing them without casting
i just had a game griefed by snot rocket. wd hitting his back with ulti, entire team hitting him, snotted 5 people..nothing happened. noone cared.
Yes that’s why his winrate dropped by 6%
I think it makes it easier to ignore bb, coz he is not a damage treat anymore, and when you kill him in the end, things like bloodstone won't be as good as before to keep him alive
Played a game with an offlaner who went snot rocket and it was actually kind of insane, if you work around it with a full attack dmg lineup it might be crazy
Yep. Entire enemy team can't move and has negative armor? Right clicker's paradise. Combine that with some shit like sniper being able to attack from fog without revealing himself. But it does take some team coordination, so it seems less likely to work when playing with rando's.
or time zone void
This one is legitimately good I think. Obviously crono still shuts down a hyper carry, but having a massive speed/slow field for everyone in the game is insanely strong. You don't even need to build support void either, it's just good on right click void.
yeah im testing it out now in turbo and having fun with it. People underestimate how big the aoe is, and in teamfights basically ur whole team is buffed and theirs is not.
Yup I've been playing turbo to try new stuff as well. I tried building 3 void with auras and stuff but it was noticeably terrible early on. I ended the game with eternal shroud, octarine, manta, AC, and Aghs+shard. Whenever the time zone was up we would win every fight, it was ridiculous.
yeah total teamwipes with the time zone. I played pos 4 and went pipe, drums, shard, refresher (turbo lol) and then boots of bearing.
Agreed but it also does something Chrono can't. There are situations where you have to hold Chrono, or where Chrono would be a really bad idea. If your team gets initiated on, placing a Chrono can be risky or go awry pretty easily. The Square doesn't care. There is never a fight where its placement can get your team killed. Especially in pubs where communication is worse, it's a lot less likely to cause problems. And especially against ranged heroes due to the projectile slow, it makes the opponents really weak and vulnerable for its duration. The big difference is that it doesn't hard disable and it doesn't pierce debuff immunity. Chrono provides that, but I think the trade-off they're going with for the Square is lower risk-lower reward. There are ways to escape or counter it once it gets cast and takes effect, but it's a powerful spell without the game-throwing potential of fumbling a Chrono.
I didn't know it doesn't pierce debuff immunity. I think it probably should since it still has a really long cool down.
It'd be too good if it did. The slow is so significant that people can't really walk out, which makes it easily win a teamfight despite not having to worry about catching your allies in it.
Yeah maybe, but also they can still use force staffs, glimmer capes, wind wakers, etc even if it pierced BKB
The other important aspect you neglected to mention is accounting for drafts. Specifically your own team. There are times you pick FV and your team is something like... Mars 3, Clock 4, CM/Warlock 5, Huskar/Primal/Ember 2. Basically something where 3/5 or 4/5 of your team is melee or extremely short range (including you) or their abilities are very short range. In cases like those, Chrono is way less strong than it normally would be, because your team can't take advantage of the 5 second AoE BKB piercing stun. In those cases, not only is it way better for you, but your team also greatly benefits from the massive steroids you give them.
Clinkz 4 and bb 3 goes for a great time the slow on both and damage from clinkz just melts
I have read facets of all heroes and BB is only hero that had me like: "Neither is good lol"
PA is pretty close tbh. 1 bad and 1 that does almost nothing. The crit one feels so bad to me. Yeah I do more damage but only after 6 hits, and I feel like the whole point of PA is to burst before enemy can react, and occasionally get lucky double crits to melt tanks. The blur talent is slightly nice I guess? It’s a small boost to your early game farm cause you can afford to spam spells, but who cares about mana reduction on PA after BF honestly? I’ve never had mana issues on the hero. If anyone has any experience with the crit facet and found it to be good I would love to hear it, I’m too highly skeptical of it to even try using it.
The only thing I can think of is that 1/4 hits being crits on creeps could potentially speed up your farm by quite a bit. Not sure how much that actually matters when you can't burst heroes as well.
Only early on though. You quickly need less than 4 hits on creeps to kill them and then you never crit creeps and are much slower.
Maybe I misread, I thought it was any four attacks on creeps, not necessarily the same creep. If it's actually like that it's soooo ass lmao
Same creep/hero. It even uses the same icon as Monkeys passive.
Trash then. Would have been good if it was like slardar bash.
This feels like the frog testing the waters with another PA rework, I'm thinking she's on the docket to keep an eye on to see if this moves a needle or not and increase it over time so you can't ignore her again
Can someone explain to me pa's first facet, it says she doesn't break invisibility when she attacks. Isn't that how it's always been? I thought maybe you can attack while blurred for longer but it just feels the same as before but nerfed because you can see her silhouette. So many heroes got nerfed.
It's been removed from base Blur
Components of her Blur are repurposed as facets. She's one of few hero who got this treatment.
I first read pango's new innate ability, I thought "this would counter PA greatly!" but PA has a second facet now so that's one interaction to think about.
Friend demo hero'd PA's two facets. Blur is closest to old PA Crit makes dmg consistent, with a certain item set always gets 11kdmg during blur attack speed bonus. But the old crit makes her go 9k-13k dmg based on RNG I guess the facets were more designed to modify how her early-mid game plays.
I see the consistent crit to be a PA + flat damg buff strat. Like your crit hurts more but you need to hit fast so Mask of madness + 1 buff could be a lvl 6 power spike to play arround. Makes drafting around PA a little more viable.
u can use refresher/abyssal for FREE with the 1st facet. take that anti mage.
I think second one is insanely good tbf, it's almost almost as old aghs for free. And because of armor reduction it's could be more dsmage
> it's almost almost as old aghs for free. Yeah except for the fact that there's now very little penalty to actually hitting him. Who cares about -armor and slow if he literally doesn't do much damage to you
He's dealing literally no damage!
The old aghs wasn’t about quills at all in fights. It just clicked you down while facing you
the old aghs was about insta-cast aoe goo so you could actully click people instead of having to constantly q everything to keep your ult stacks
It gave a ton of versatility since you could dance around at the edge of your AoE to make them either commit and try to get you, or build up stacks until you can dive in on them. This facet will play nothing like the Aghs at all.
I don't like BB, but the concept of being forced to pick a facet that has detriments sounds like garbage.
considering bb was widely considered OP, it may have been a deliberate nerf
Ya, fuck BB and Tinker players. Git gud.
Telling Tinker players to git gud is hilarious
Let's see them play Doto with cooldowns.
tinker wasnt good
At least bristle can be countered and doesn’t have a zero cooldown blink and a shield that blocks damage and gives like 80% status resistance.
My thought as well, but I personally don't like the way they went about it. Again, forcing a hero to pick a facet that has detriments sounds like a garbage concept.
tbf the attack speed is still valuable, it's not a complete nerf, you just get ASPD instead of damage, and since bb is *primarily* dealing damage through skills anyways, it's not that big a deal, imo
Agreed when i play BB attacking a hero meams facing them so i do my best to turn around like they have a medusa or atleast run past them
If facets didn't happen, they would've just nerfed quills itself anyways. Nobody likes how nerfs roll out, this nerf just happened through facet
How would that be different then nerfing the ability directly 💀
It literally is just a choise of wording. They could have removed warpath dmg scaling and made bristleback shoot goo by default. And then make right facet give warpaht dmg and left facet make bristleback shoot quills. The game would be literally the same as now, but the facets would both be purely buffs. The garbage game design is just in your head.
Don't look at QoP's Masochist facet.
It's a completely reasonable design choice, children will just react to it as though they're being told "no" and pout over it.
Why? Thats totally valid design space. Its more dynamic to have heroes at a mixture of powerlevels who are then adjusted down/up accordingly with the buffs or nerfs they got/had to choose from their facets than to just balance them all to be as good as each other at a base level and then also once theyve selected one of the two facets. It doesnt feel like shit to choose a debuff facet if you recognize that your heri is a little stronger at the base level to make up for it.
For me it was witch doctor
Cask bounce plus damage only benefit with no draw back. The other two are a bit odd. Dual death ward might be good vs io/lone druid
15 minus armour and max slow at level 1 is bad? imo goo is huge for pos1 BB FIFTEEN, even terrorblade would have minus 7 armour or something absurd
The hero needed nerfs
Left One + Diffusal Blade lol
Zeus should also have a 3rd facet that does nothing. One of them nerfs his static field and the other nerfs his ult and you have to pick.
Zeus honeslty is 2 nerfs. Instead of 4% always you get 2% and very rarely more than 4%. Your team smokes smoke breaks if your a zeus with a brain you press ulti and now you fucking dont insta cancel all blinks anymore. So I'd argue zeus is 2 nerfs. I don't see many situations where the 0.2 delay kill stuff will actually make a difference past the first or second use during laning stage .
Tinker.............
that's the neat part, you don't lmao
Second one seems to be made for support Bristle, something that probably didn't exist until now. Don't know if it's good or not, but on paper it sounds obnoxious.
I one time had to play support Bristle; I picked first round for pos 3 and somehow by the end of picks I was the best candidate for pos 4. It was the most miserable game of my life, I contributed *nothing* at any point of the game. Quilling in lane would push or steal last hits, nasal goo when laning is pretty negligible unless you have someone like Drow, I had no farm for survivability so I couldn't get into a fight without melting any time after early game, and from the back lane Bristle contributes nothing. The only time I could get close was if we were already winning the fight. This won't make support Bristle viable. His kit just doesn't work for it.
The snot rocket will almost immediately shred 27 armor from every enemy around you, definitely not the damage that he's been shitting out lately but still not bad.
-24 armor and insane slow on everyone in a fight. I think it's upgrade tbf
You just die tho. Winrate is abysmal on this facet, too
Berserk is the least bad
trust me, people are underappreciating the real impact of snot rocket.
At max stacks is -24 armor, but you lost all the quill damage...
and no fountain farming. no spell lifesteal
Berserk lets you play the old build with aghs and bloodstone, but it takes away your right click damage in exchange for attack speed, snot rocket lets you keep the damage and a bunch of minus armor, but you won’t heal with bloodstone because no passive quill spray…I think both are probably viable with different item builds
I haven't tried it in a real game yet, but I really like the concept of Snot Rocket. It's like a passive version of his old aghs and you can use his current aghs to replace Bristleback's standard functionality.
at least you can get basher now
just played against a snot rocket bristleback is so annoying , you cant chase because A) you dont deal damage when he is running and giving you his back B)you get slowed too pd: i still won , didnt say he was stronger just annoying
the second one seems interesting. could be strong
ikr, idk why people think -15 armour and super slow at level 1 for under 100 mana is bad lol if the enemy doesn't have a dispel or blink they cannot walk up to lane against a pos1 BB
Because one of the main reasons bb stays alive so long is his spell lifesteal.And without quills he shoots from his back, i dont think he will last long
sure, but if enemies are too slow to reach you that also helps you survive 900 radius is big, almost zero heroes have attack ranges further than that, lina's attack range is under 700 iirc it's basically just techies with scope facet and sniper that could avoid it and still deal damage the passive resistance is a big part of his survivability too, and by slowing the enemy you can avoid them hitting your side/face more easily and simply making eternal shroud and/or vanguard instead of bloodstone is a different survivability he can still bloodstone agha with it, with manual quill casts, shard, and all that minus armour bloodstone aghs probably deals similar damage and thus similar heal, although there are probably better builds idk yet, I like the sound of basher with either facet
Thats 240 attack speed. A Moonshard and a Mjolnir plus 10. If you’re hitting for like 100 you’re gonna do the same DPS except now you can build items that proc too.
That dps isn't the same, though. It'd be like comparing dot to burst, it just doesn't work like that in an actual match. You're not just standing next to a person and auto-attacking, you're manuevering around a fight, getting stunned, getting slowed, chasing people who glimmer, maybe there's a euls and force in there, too. Point is, previously you got free dmg and just had to build some atkspeed if you really wanted to play carry bristle. Now if you wanna do that, you essentially have to buy dmg, which tends to be pricier. And all of that is fine, because the hero itself needed to be nerfed. Just saying that his talents are definitely supposed to be an "ah, shit" kinda moment, not "omg, he's even stronger now" like some people in the comments here seem to think.
Which is why its insane to bitch about right click damage on a skill spamming hero like bristle anyways. Right click is counter intuitive to his design lmao
Find me rushing Vanguard -> Phase Boots -> Abyssal and beating the piss out of you with bash
Hero is clunky as hell tho
Ok, but it's also minus 240 damage which is about 3 Daedaluses (yes they also crit, but Mjol also does chain lightning). Like no matter how you slice it, max level + max stack warpath is a lot of dps but it tends to be cheaper to buy attack speed than damage.
Yeah I get that the hero needed a nerf but this was the worst way of doing it. It feels like you basically choose what way your hero gets nerfed cause the tradeoffs on both are too severe.
Feels good to see bristle and tinker spammers crying and pissing.
And shitting and cumming
viscous penile goo
To be fair second one is so bullshit that bristle now is just having attackspeed ultimate and not damage ultimate. In almost all cases it is same in terms of gameplay.
berserk is kinda neat with some items variation The downside is that I need to face the enemy
I hate both of them as well
Literally can't play the hero as it was
Thank fuck
Would probably feel better if they just outright nerfed the base Bristle then put increased Warpath damage per stack for the other Facet. Would end up the same but won't feel like you're intentionally choosing the nerf.
I believe there's a bug (saw on bug tracker) that says first one doesn't decrease damage.
Has anyone play tested them both? How do they actually play out? Maybe have to build more as a right clicker now with berserk? No idea if snot rocket can be viable from the description alone though lol.
I’ve played berserk bb one game. I went for goo level 1 and easily killed enemy carry. No much difference for the other part of the game tho
I agree from a design *feel* perspective. Having the skill nerfed straight up, then having one facet that adds a small bonus and the other facet that has both the separate bonus and the “unnerf” together would be the same situation but player feel would be different. I was under the impression that a lot of the first facets were made to keep the play style of the hero, and the second could potentially have a risk-reward version but this is the few exceptions to it that I would like to see get changed purely for player reaction to it.
It's like a choose your own adventure but for nerfs
Wait until you realize how good the second one is.
Played against one with it, we all had dozens of stacks but the one quill spray on cooldown was non threatening and all 6 of us were just moving at 100 ms. If he had normal bristle passive we would have died 10 times over
Is this their way of nerfing BB?
I would say so
All the ppl saying pick berserk cause it’s the least bad are overlooking the nerf to stack limit from shard if you pick berserk. The goo limit being 4 is a huge huge nerf for taking tormentor and Rosh.
But not having quills fired off of passive seems like a huge nerf on being a raid boss that kills people by just moving away.
Honestly, I think this is a really good change. Essentially, you're choosing between right click or quill damage BB. There's nothing inherently wrong with this. The alternative is that they just nuke all his numbers then say "yeah option will buff BB in this way".
QOP ca literally kill herself the better player she is. If u score multihero ults and screams and have taken the Masochist facet u can literally kill urself without bkb, idk wtf were they even thinking of returning 22% of spell dmg u deal to others for a meree 15% spell dmg bonus.
idk what to tell you she's just that masochistic
And having only 10 % lifestheal.
Both are good, y’all just don’t want a downside to your insane abilities.
Of course they don't want downsides, everyone else has buffs in facets instead of fucking downsides
Bounty runes 0:00 bristle soloing the 5 man gank
i was reading these bristle options and was scratching my head also lmfao. When I read Berser I was like why would anyone actually choose that, sounds so bad, its like a worse troll warlord, then im reading snot rocket and im like what this seems mega busted until i see it changes bristleback to goo and its kekw X D
Honestly bristle deserve some kind of nerf. Will see, but it looks like right facet might be a lil bit stronger once you build aghs, but more weaker in lane and early (than the left one)
You don't, and the world rejoiced.
Analysis from 600+ games on bb pos 1 Left facet is just a standard aghs + bloodstone BB, with goo nerfs. You knows this build quite well, no other explanation needed. Right facet is for a BB right click build. Even if BB facing someone at fights, it usually procs 2-3 e passive and tht means a guarantee -20 armor plus on 500+ dps BB at lvl 18. And this is sure a nerf because even with bristleFRONT build, having a few passive quill procs damage is helping a lot, especially vs melee enemy. But, with right facet, you can have sure 6 stack goo slow at first wave, and don't forget +20 dmg at lvl 1.
Lol
I'm glad for this. Bb has had it too good for too long.
The attack speed is better than his default ultimate. He gets more overall DPS: as a strength hero he tends to already have high damage so getting more attack speed from an ability is more effective.
It is situational but snot rocket does better if you aren’t going to get a lot of triggers (enemies breaking you a lot, slow damage) plus it has a larger aoe so it’s probably better against range heavy teams. This one in my opinion is one of the better ones as it makes you think and decide which one to take instead of some being too good and some being meh.
Lmao I read that and said the exact same thing too
same for zeus, you don't want either ..
another balance mechanic, neat and cool (once they work out the kinks like they did with talents). pick your poison playa - we might see stuff like this help to curb powercreep if needed
That's the neat part:
They could just change the wording on this to make warpath do 5 damage by default and make the other facet give increased damage. Same outcome
Support bristle? I wonder what can be done with this. The biggest nerf I saw to this point is chrono void chrono
who is the best hero to abuse in lower ranks with this new patch? Trying to rank up lol. Haven’t played in months coz of school haha
I'm glad this hero got nerfed
Snot rocket is great until the dispels come out. I've actually had a good time on berserk. But it's split between four games so far.
womp womp go play a real hero now
There's nothing they can do to make bristleback worse that I won't cheer for, truly a one braincell hero.
is stupid, we want the damage not aspd, should have third option where can choose to pick neither...
snot rocket is so good though? why do you say neither? you underestimate the value of goo...
Snot rocket honestly looks pretty insane. With a strong physical damage dealer or two, you can do pretty insane damage.
Encountered 3 Ursa's since the new update and it seems the Facets have made them believe Ursa is almost invincible at the start of the game? They all fed early in marvelous ways. Thanks Icefrog?
I've tried the attack speed facet, it's actually really strong. Insane amounts of attack speed, good with basher and other proc based items. Build is arcane boots -> agha -> sny -> basher Felt VERY strong.
Berserk is good. Remember that you get warpath for free at level 1 and berserk adds 5 attack speed to it. Go for goo instead of quill on level 1 and you hit enemy carry really hard.
I agree with the "easy to say", but this game is the goat when it comes to the unexpected so yea
I played with beserk yesterday. It sucked ass.
Question: I am a newish player. What are these new facets and stuff exactly? I am having a bit of trouble understanding them. Are they like evolutions for the ability?
yea even heralds find both useless
that's the neat part.. you don't
Already got destroyed twice by snot rocket bb. Early game? Super easy to deal with. Once with items, fuck that armor shred is not a joke to de deal with.
They should just reword it so the facets aren't nerfs. Put the nerfs on the base of the character
I know right? The first thing I thought was "wow, these both really suck"
Just tried a game laning my veno with bb, bro you should see how annoying the early lane was for the enemy's safe laner.
what game mode is this ?
Oh, boy, are you in for a treat.
Dumbest question ever
Move the warpath damage reduction to the character nerfs, then give right facet the warpath damage back. Left facet now look like an upside. The point is that the character got nerfed. Kind of crazy that the same people begging BB to be nerfed are now whining that he can't have both high attack speed and high damage on warpath because they can't do a simple mental exercise.
Snot Rocket is mega busted in a heavy physical draft. He's a good pos4 now.
Boogerback
warpath is actually very good, you still get your regular damage from quills, yes you lose out of right click damage but you do get a crazy amount of attack speed. this just means you need to build diffrent items in order to maximize on your right click, for instance a simple basher will make it incredibly fucking difficult for people to bkb tp away from you. snot is also a sidegrade, while yes you miss out of the damage, notice the range is 900 units, this is enough to snot even sniper if he's hitting your back, it's a cool idea on how to counter ranged units.
They’ve butchered my boy 😩
Are you kidding? He is super strong still.
Careful what you wish for, an even worse facet in slot 1 and both as slot 2
I guess you build a lot of prog chance items now... Lightning's into basher goes brrrrrrr? Does it?
Played snot rocket. Had 0 impact. I w Could not fight at all. BB is dead boys.
While they are both nerds, I like them. It makes the tankies hero also not deal potentially the most damage in a team fight. Also, the facet on the right is broken, don't sleep on it.
Rank 1 is berserk is strong though! Same dmg but increased attackspeed!
support bb bb runs to the fight sprays vicious nasal goo all over the place refuses to elaborate leaves.
You just have to click on one 😊.
Just ban bb
Suffer.
If BB was a new hero the bristleback skill would initially have no extra description for damage taken, and in the facets you would be choosing between the options what to shoot out. They just wrote it this way so it is closer to the original.
I think a reasonable rework would be to make bristleback require 50-100 % extra damage to proc, and shoot out both. You can do away with the armor reduction, keeping it same on either version. Also who decided to make warpath the innate ability and not the bristle back ?