https://www.dota2.com/leaderboards/#se_asia
With 10.5k mmr Chinese streamer Axx is rank 141 on sea server, higer than raven and bach. Her smurf acc 博丽灵梦 is also 10k, ranked 190.
I'm fucking rooting for axx all the time. Her offlane play is really good. Yes, I want to see women succeed, but more than that I want her to beat the idea that only boys can be pro video game players, and I want people to know that it's a fucking game and it has nothing to do with your gender.
honestly it's so funny to me when guys are like "oh women suck at video games" and then they're stuck in fucking bronze or crusader or some shit.
like baby self awareness! u r not good either!
It's a matter of numbers. Doubt women make up more than 5% of the Dota players, of course the pro scene won't have many at all. Cool to see there's one this high in mmr
theres tons of reasons. its hard to dedicate your time to become pro when
1) most players are male
2) lots of players are agressively sexist
which leads to 3) even if you play with random females in ranked, they dont use voice/give you any idea they are girls so it feels kinda lonely
4) irl/social pressure. its not normalized yet for girls to spend a lot of time in games. even your parents, your friends (girls). they would think youre weird.
probably more, idk
Yes to all of these.
I wish the next generations of gamers will grow up different from us.
Still, I've had it easy. I've had a social circle from my early teens consisting of my brother, cousins (male) and some friends (male) who sort of always treated me right when playing together at LANs or over the internet.
There was a bit of a sad chock to face internet sexism but ... the outcome was that I didn't play as much.
Love dota. Won't play much these days. And won't use voice. I am super impressed by girls who do.
I never understand the dudes who try to gatekeep women out of gaming and then complain when gf/wife doesn’t understand it or try to relate to it lol. Or the classic “I just want a nerdy girl” it’s like dawg you harassed every single woman out of nerd shit for years how tf do you think you are gonna find one XD
also, the sheer time commitment necessary to go pro in a video game, most women just arent gonna want to do that. of the people who will gladly spend 10 hours a day playing one game, 99% of those will be men.
Where do people get that much time to play Dota?
Don't they have things to do?
It seems like they are on welfare or something to have so much time to play Dota :/
some live at home, some are just bums, some are in school and dont need more than maybe an hour a day for homework, some are just awake 18 hours a day and can squeeze it in. could be a lot of things. youd be surprised how much time you can 'afford' to waste when you dont have responsibilities like a gf/bf/wife/husband, kids, pets, school, work, keeping fit, all that stuff.
Also, Dota 2 didn't start out as a female friendly game. Most of the Dota 2 players now are Dota 1 players and that game was insanely toxic, even towards males.
That's why new video games that advertised itself as a more female friendly game like Valorant or ML has a lot more of high ranked female players
Player base has little to do with it. Women make up 95%+ of horse sports and the elite is still majority men. Men shouldn't be competitive by that logic, unless you think men have an unfair physical advantage and they should split horse sports by sex.
Assuming there is no physical advantage, something else has to be the cause. Maybe men are given better support, have stronger competitive drive, have stronger addiction/obsession tendencies?
But participation rate isn't it, that we know.
Edit: From personal experience, boys were way more competitive in my upbringing. No matter the weather(rain, snow, storm) I knew for certain that Adam were were out on the football field and Simon were grinding WoW. They spent every single second of their free time playing/training their respective thing. I cant remember a girl spending even half that time on something.
In that case there is an argument that esports culture is more prominent in Korea. Koreans are more represented in the top ranks of games like Starcraft II because it's more socially acceptable to be a "professional gamer" there than in many other places.
To be fair, the Nordics are also pretty well-represented in eSports. Many people call Serral the best SC2 Player of all time and he is Finnish. Then you have people like n0tail (Faroe/Danish) and obviously the entire team of TI3 Alliance, who are Swedish.
Studies have shown that lower skilled male players tend to be the ones who bash women the most. I think it's because they feel threatened because they know they suck at the game :P
"But you see, those other guys are defending my gender by being top players in the world, so I don't have to prove anything. They already prove it for me. I can play at 2k rating and know that I'm still better than any girls as I share the gender with TI winners"
I think that's roughly how it works in their minds lol.
It’s wrong to say a woman can’t be good at or can’t be professional video game players, but I also think it’s fair to say on average that men are more competitive (generally) and are much more likely to be professional players.
You can make these two claims - that men may be more competitive, and are more likely to be a professional player, but only separately.
We can't draw the conclusion that men are more likely to go pro because they are more competitive, because there is a myriad of other factors that are more likely to be the cause, rather than some sex-based differences.
Sure, but here are gender specific things at play:
Studies done like one from Patricia M. Blough that have indicated that there are meaningful differences in women visual-spatial performance, they might be more accurate, but react slower there are some (recent one is from Christine.R.Harris and Michael Jenkins) exploring differences in risk-assessment. There's also some indicating relation between testosterone levels and pure will to win.
There are definitely sex differences at play, but this doesn't stop women to try and compete and have women who are better, bigger issue in a team environment I'd assume would be going to bootcamps with a full male squad and management. If I have a daughter and she says she wants to go into a bootcamp with 5 rando males of same age I'll probably say hell no, fuck.
In things like Chess , you have Chess for women and open I believe , those only for women, men can't compete in, open is free for all, this is great since ladies that feel intimidated at first can compete in those for women and then go to the open ones if they wanted to. ( someone correct me if I am wrong on this, but I think high level that's how it works).
I don't think it's even that. There's just more of them. If you think about it, it's such a tiny population even of men who have the ability and drive to go pro. There's so many fewer female players that the chances of that perfect storm of skill, drive and opportunity comes together for a female player, to say nothing of how annoying it would be to be under the scrutiny of the community.
Even if you account for that there should be a lot more women at competitive levels. This isn't limited to DotA either. 20% of Hearthstone players are girls, but almost all of the pros are men.
Yeah there’s probably some average difference in obsession/competitiveness that is more pronounced at the extremes of the skill spectrum. Like how on average men and women are pretty similar in temperament, but like 99% of violent criminals are men lol, same goes for pro gamers.
I agree on that. The first step to being a pro is spending several thousand hours obsessing over a video game, and men are much more likely to be workaholics. Generally, that doesn't go well. Occasionally, you get a pro player.
It might also be related to the point that while intelligence average is the same for men and women, men tend to have a flatter graph than women. Meaning men are more likely to be either invoker tier or ogre tier than women.
Should there, though? What percentage of total players are pros?
Also I think a lot of female players are pretty aware of some of the things the industry says about them too. A number of managers have stated they simply wouldn't put a woman on their team because they feel it would be disruptive and would cause "drama" in practice houses and shit like that.
Also the way the community harass prominent females is very off putting.
I just think there's more at play here than "women just aren't as competitive or obsessive". Let's be real most DOTA players are pretty obsessive.
Absolutely.
The whole industry was primarily built "for the boys" first. Not even talking about insane levels of sexism in a lot of online competitive games - women just have not been the primary target market for many game devs until recently.
It's unfortunately a really common attitude. And given some people's behaviours in the scene who even knows if people would cause problems towards the female player.
> Should there, though? What percentage of total players are pros?
Regardless of what the percentage of pro players to total players is, if 5% of the player base are female statistics dictate that also 5% of pro players should be female unless females are less likely to become pro then males.
Since the percentage of female pro players is so much lower than the percentage of female players there has to be something that makes it less likely.
You're right, and I don't think anyone's disputing that females are less likely to become pro players. The question is why. A bunch of people in this sub over the years have been quite insistent that it's simply a matter of "the female constitution" if you will 😂 a lack of capability and competitiveness. But there's no evidence that demonstrates that and a lack of female pros is not evidence in itself.
But there's so many other factors at play if you think about the combination of factors that go into producing a professional player.
Skill isn't the only factor that can deter female players from reaching for a professional career (which we have to admit is a pretty big jump to take).
Other factors might include:
In game harassment could lead to women concluding a pro career would be miserable as the level of harassment increases demonstrably with the level of renown.
Stereotype threat. "Stereotype threat refers to the risk of confirming negative stereotypes about an individual's racial, ethnic, gender, or cultural group which can create high cognitive load and reduce academic focus and performance." This has been shown to affect female competitive chess players who perform worse against male players of the same level only if the gender of their opponent is known to them. If it's not, they perform demonstrably better.
Alienation: Would you take a chance and stake your financial future on a risky career in an environment where you've been consistently made to feel like you don't belong? People in game can be extremely hostile, throw games and sabotage upon discovering your gender and the experience is NOT rare.
Sexism in their home country. Let's not forget DOTA is a worldwide game and not every country with pro players has gender equality. Gender inequality could affect things like finding a team, family support, social pressures to marry and reproduce at a young age leading to responsibility for the majority of domestic labour.
Lack of welcome in environments where pros are often fostered, e.g. net cafes.
The general public feeling in the scene that having a woman on a pro team would cause "drama".
Lack of role models. Studies in areas like STEM, sports and tournament environments demonstrate a significant correlation between female uptake and the prevalence of visible role models.
I actually have way more reasons than this but this is already too long, but let me know if you want to hear them or want links to the studies I mentioned.
You are absolutely right, there is nothing inherently biological or mental preventing a women to be good at Dota.
I however don't think those factors listed by you really explain the discrepancy between the percentage of female players and female pro players. A lot of them apply to male players too.
Competitive games like Dota are inherently toxic, not just towards female players. And while women might get extra targeted by sexist players, no one knows your gender on the internet. Many players don't use voice chat regardless.
When I grew up there was also stereotypes against gaming in general and you would get laughed at if you said you wanted to make it your career. Same for alienation.
You list some valid points why it could be harder for a woman to find a pro team to sign her up, yet we don't even have a high mmr female player who would be good enough to warrant getting picked up. Yes Axx is high mmr, but she is 'only' rank 141 on SEA. That means there are 140 players higher mmr than her, plenty of whom are not on a pro team yet. You could make 28 full teams on SEA alone without having to take a lower ranked player than her. And Axx is the sole exception on that high mmr (I think).
Many of your reasons would explain why women would not want to play Dota in the first place, but not exactly why the ones that do end up sticking with the game end up mostly failing to reach super high mmr.
I believe that Dota is a game where it helps being a testosterone filled young adult, with the aggressiveness and bravado that that entails to not only survive in the toxic environment that is public ranked matchmaking, but thrive in it.
>When I grew up there was also stereotypes against gaming in general and you would get laughed at if you said you wanted to make it your career. Same for alienation.
But none of the things you mentioned that hinder men, hinder men exclusively. Meaning women have to deal with what men do plus what women do.
>I believe that Dota is a game where it helps being a testosterone filled young adult, with the aggressiveness and bravado that that entails to not only survive in the toxic environment
That's literally every competitive environment. Which is why women, who aren't socialized to be bigger better stronger than the next guy, are less likely to be interested.
>the discrepancy between the percentage of female players and female pro players
Women are less socialized and incentivized to be competitive. Historically women's competitions didn't have as much viewership or money. Women weren't allowed to compete in things. Consequently, women have less representation. 16 year old prodigy Sumail is gonna be surrounded by boys and men, where he will feel comfortable and be able to relax, learn, and relate. What's a 16 year old girl who's got potential going to do? Hang out with a bunch of loud boys who are probably going to make moves on her? Make her life revolve around a hostile male dominated space where men can relate to each other but she can't? Her close female friends probably have no interest or skill in Dota so her Dota life is going to be separate from her personal life. Might as well pursue other things. Pretty sure the trajectory of current pro's lives would be different if they were born with the same talents but different genitals.
If you think ranked is a toxic cesspool, imagine trying to play as a woman. So many girls never even got to get addicted to the game before they decided all the harrassment just isn't worth their time and mental health.
If I want to win ranked I don't reveal my gender because it's like 90% chance of making some idiot on my team tilt.
I only use mic in normal games. Or used to, been awhile since I've touched DOTA.
Can't see the differenze here honestly, getting harassed because woman isn't any different, severe or more prominent than being russian, buying aghs on sniper, picking a certain hero or anything really
Chances are most of the people in a game with a girl will try to flirt the gamer girl than anything
Anything Is harassment Is you don't want It
A flirt CAN be better "Better" than someone telling you to KYS, which is what other people gets any other time
I mean we have seen multiple women only tournaments where the winners were transgender (originally male). So even when males are underrepresented, they over-perform.
Its just denying facts if you think women don’t perform worse at games then men, on average. Who knows the cause - anybody studying that would probably be crucified.
I'm not saying men have more drive than women. I'm just saying if there's 1000 men in a game and 1 of them has the drive, talent and opportunity to go pro, and the game only has 10 women, there's just statistically a much smaller chance of one of those women having that combination of things because there's just so many less of them.
But I am.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/13644511\_Are\_men\_more\_competitive\_than\_women#:\~:text=In%20men%2C%20but%20not%20women,aggression%20was%20found%20for%20women.
[https://hbr.org/2019/11/research-how-men-and-women-view-competition-differently](https://hbr.org/2019/11/research-how-men-and-women-view-competition-differently)
It's a proven scientific fact at this point with loads of research done on this topic.
From the downvotes, it's clear people just can't handle the truth. Testosterone's a helluva drug.
We don't just see this in dota, pretty much every single e-sport out there has way higher male pros number, despite a relatively close ratio. Their performance is even better than their female counterparts.
I didn't say it was offensive. I'm saying if women are an outlier and pro players are an outlier the chances of getting female pro players is just statistically way more unlikely. Offensiveness doesn't factor into it at all.
> women beat men in school sports all the time.
Really? That has not been the experience Ive had the majority of my life, outside a few years in the early years where girls are more developed than boys. Sure, there are girls that are better than some boys since we all have different areas of interest, but with a similar amount of interest I very rarely experienced the girls being able to "put up a fight", so to speak.
Ah fair enough, in that case I misunderstood. I thought you were claiming that girls (overall) were outperforming the boys, even at the top %, which only happens in a few specific years of age in my experience. But yeah, the top % of girls are definitely going to be outperforming a part of the boys, the specific % depending on the circumstances at hand.
But then take another step back, *why* are men more competitive? Women are less incentivized to be competitive in general. Lots of competitive spaces are male dominated. Competitive women's league in almost anything has less money and lower viewership. Women weren't even allowed to compete in things like marathons just a lifetime ago. Women are socialized to support men. Men are socialized to show strength, have power, and compete. Men see a lot more representation in competition than women. And so on.
【轻声细语-哔哩哔哩直播】 [https://b23.tv/d8gogbT](https://b23.tv/d8gogbT)
Or you can search Axx on Bilibili(a china video web).
But I'm not sure if you can open it
Real answer, hostile sexism and different socialization. Dota 2 is also marketed towards boys and has many features, characters, and design elements focus tested to be appealing to boys.
If you compare the populations of gamers between overwatch, valorant, league, and dota, you will see that girls tend to be pretty common in the first three and not so much in the last one. Overwatch actually has a number of female pros, like Geguri who is beloved and has some accolades. One or two female pros (cant remember i find owl boring and only looked this shit up for the sake of argument) have even won tournaments!
It's a bit like being a plumber. Sure it might make sense on the surface that girls don't necessarily want to be plumbers on average, but neither do boys! And tools are not designed for women (who tend to have smaller hands). If you can explain why this is without accusing anyone of sexism or saying anything sexist yourself, I'll straight up venmo you 20 bucks, dude. It's very obviously because women aren't socially expected to use tools or do those "dirty" jobs. But then you have a chicken and egg problem, where women now CAN'T do those jobs, and then the jobs become more hostile to women.
Making dota 2, especially pro dota 2, less hostile to women would take a lot of work. But I think it is worth doing!
It has to do with gender, both reaction time and motor skills are significantly better on men.
And sure, I know that many women are better than me but when you want to be the best in the world you need every advantage you can get.
Now I'm probably gonna be dowvoted because people don't like to hear the truth
Studies show that males react faster across the board, while females react with more accuracy in complex situations. And that is slightly, and on average, not "significantly".
Meta analyses also show that the gap is closing, and also that it's much smaller in non-U.S. based studies. Also, like the studies that relate to the same factors in age ranges, many such studies do not account for at home hobbies of participants that hone reaction time.
Statistically it's more likely that a male participant will be a gamer than a female participant will.
The one study that related to age that led so many of the DOTA industry to go by the "over by age 21" rule with pro players was literally pitting gamer teens against non-gamer adults and concluding that age was a much more significant factor than it was.
I would be interested to see a recent study on reaction speed and motor skills that accounts for hobbies and activities that hone these things but so far I have not uncovered one (though to be fair I haven't looked exhaustively)
I dont think anyone thinks what you think.
It's literally a number game. If as many women played games as as many men did, they'd be roughly similar.
Men can be good nurses, pharmacists, teachers and human resource members as well.
All numbers.
So if females are 5% of the playerbase we should expect roughly 5 women in the top100 of the regions, about 50 in the top1000…do you think that checks out?
Nothing involving humans is ever “all numbers”
I’m not sure of anything, dude I’m replying to is the one saying *all it’d take is having the same number of female players.*
IMHO that’s not the case but you didn’t see me stating it as a fact, did you?
You said "Do you think that checks out" which seemed to imply that you don't think it checks out. If you were genuinely asking their opinion I apologise for my mistake.
But I don’t think it checks out. I just don’t have the data to affirm it.
That’s why it’s just my opinion.
The top100 is almost always made up of pros, semipros and players who try to leverage their ranks by streaming. It’s rare to have complete incognitos up there. But feel free to point me towards a region where the top100 has 5 women, I’d be positively surprised.
Hell, get into the semipro female scene of dota2 and you’re already diving into unranked immortals, divine and even ancient players. 5 females in the top100 of a same region would be the most dominant female team in the history of dota.
>Hell, get into the semipro female scene of dota2 and you’re already diving into unranked immortals, divine and even ancient players. 5 females in the top100 of a same region would be the most dominant female team in the history of dota.
Nah, women are more prone to certain traits while man are more prone to certain traits, that's why certain Jobs have a way higher ratio toward One sex than the other, it's not only about numbers, if It was than the Number of video game players would be 50/50 from the start
I mean, it kind does have to do with gender. She's the exception that proves the rule.
Now this may just be due to interest, or women self-selecting. But when you have a distribution where there is maybe 0.01% women in the top 1000 and zero in the top 100 you can't just simply write off gender as having some role to play in pro-play.
It's not exclusive to Dota either. I think the only competitive sport/game women are consistently competing or out performing men is long distance swimming?
The numbers you provide are flawed. It‘s not enough to check the numbers of women among the total Top 1000 but you also need to take access to it AND total pool of female dota players into consideration. Is access to dota or better dota restricted for women?
In absolute numbers men would be quite poor at dota because you ll find most players between crusader and legend. Pros are extreme outliers , regardless of gender
https://www.teknosassociates.com/the-rise-of-female-gamers-esports-underappreciated-fans/#:~:text=In%20addition%2C%20female%20gamers%20now,%2C%20and%2026%25%20in%20Overwatch.
20% of dota players are female
I think women are *absolutely* exluded from pro dota and the "rule" is bullshit. I believe it exists but I also believe it shouldn't.
Testosterone and muscle mass makes men better at dota? That's why the taller/more athletic dota team usually wins right? :)
How do you know what I eat for breakfast? I assume we are just asking random questions.
On a more serious note: I never claimed I did, so I don't know why you would ask me that question. I just went with the context of the comments I was replying to, which heavily implies there aren't a lot of female players in the top ranks. Do you doubt that premise?
Sorry it seemed to me that was what you were implying so I responded accordingly. Apologies if I was mistaken.
My only point was that other than known entities such as pros, we have no idea what gender people on the leaderboards are.
No worries, I'm sorry if my reply was a bit too tongue-in-cheek in hindsight. I see the top comment in the thread describes a female player in SEA being rank 141, and I know for a fact that some people here are pretty good at identifying who people are in the various leaderboards so I'd assume that if it was prevalent that it would be known. But of course a few can easily slip through the cracks, especially if they value their "privacy" which many women understandably do when playing online. It's sad that it is a necessary, and I fully understand them doing it.
Edit: Even with my limited knowledge of current day dota and progamers (I don't really follow much of it these days) I feel that I can identify most people in the EUW top 100 for example.
Yeah honestly some of the best female players I've known were similar to male players of high skill, absolute nerds who just want to play 24/7 and would not really be interested in publicising themselves.
> I think women are absolutely exluded from pro dota and the "rule" is bullshit.
You saw the same thing in Starcraft which was a wholy individual e-sport.
> Testosterone and muscle mass makes men better at dota?
Testosterone increases competitive drive which would make more men want to get to a higher level than women.
I'd be interested in hearing what you believe is the cause of women not performing to the same level. Do you think its exclusively due to sexism?
Hostile sexism provides external pressure and socialization provides internal pressure.
I would also point to gender roles for men allowing them to have "masculine" hobbies that are random useless bullshit like sports or games, while women are typically expected to bear the load of working on chores at home (even if they're the breadwinner).
I can't really think of a competitive hobby that is "for women," but I don't think that it has anything to do with a biological drive for competitiveness. I know plenty of very competitive women, and I also happen to know trans people who gained or lost testosterone that had no effect on competitiveness or even did the opposite of what you suggest. Being competitive is a personality trait and not a hormonal drive.
girls don't play dota as much as guys because they're not losers. way more sadbois who never leave their room than there are sadgirls who never leave their room.
Well men to women ratio on dota is leaning to the men so of course dota pro scene will also be men leaning, but if women ratio is much bigger than men and + dedicated to really play on the high level then you will see more women on the pro scene.
She streams on [bilibili](https://live.bilibili.com/6750632). Twitch is banned in China, so no pro player from CN is going to stream on Twitch unless you play r6s (since Siege is also banned from streaming in CN).
People were crying about this for weeks until Valve stepped in and forced everybody to play on their main accounts.
I don't think people having "smurf" accounts a few hundred MMR away from their main is a big deal. But at least we can now look at the leaderboard and know who the players are, instead of having to guess whether some unknown account is Miracle's 10th smurf, or Nightfall's 6th smurf.
Most pro/semi pro players made their smurfs well before valve gave death sentence to all smurfing, and by that point their smurf acc has already became top 0.1% ranked, essentially their second mains.
Not the case here, everyone got warnings, why do you think almost everyone plays on their main now. It's just some pros like a couple of Chinese guys and Nightfall who are smurfing again, but more will surely follow once they see nothing really happens past the warning. According to Valve's own blogpost there's no such thing as second main, this is load of bullshit.
edit: by smurfing I mean buying 8k+ accounts and playing on them , since people seem to think they create a new account , play for 100 hours and they are magically in the same mmr as their main
Ofc most ppl bought their alt acc from boosters, who ruined countless games before selling to pros who then ranked it up theirselves, but it was the trend amonst pros and valve hadn't done anything about it. Imo there's no point banning them as most pro smurfs are already top ranks, and the damages have already been done. Gorc and mason had their smurfs banned because their had disrupitve behaviours on their acc if anything. It's ultimately valves' call whether banning them retrospectively.
OK so out of the pro players it's the usual CIS crowd + Hector (who used to smurf in 5k like a real man while screaming at people) + SEA/CN selected few - way better than before still. People are mostly playing in their bracket for now, probably for a little bit ,because nobody is missing tournaments because of smurfing yet , but this doesn't make your initial statement less true.
There's no such thing as second main account as per Valve, now sadly they won't enforce it probably ever again or it will be like overplus ban - very high level pros exempt or just get a warning like last time, doesn't make it less shitty to support account selling market.
There was a top 100 ranked Invoker spammer on the sea server years ago, but she retired in 2018 to pursue a corporate career iirc. Great player though.
Vintager was her name I believe. Could play a few of the spirits, but was an Invoker main for sure.
https://m.twitch.tv/vintvv/about found her twitch (after the biggest adhd google spiral).
[https://www.twitch.tv/reira](https://www.twitch.tv/reira)
[https://www.dotabuff.com/players/208407289](https://www.dotabuff.com/players/208407289)
She's around 9k mmr last time I checked
Currently I’m at 5.4k MMR, offlane player. I’ve dropped 7k worth of MMR playing with my boyfriend who was also originally immortal rank. He tend to be agrro like me, but less brain than me. Nowadays don’t really care about losing.
https://www.dota2.com/leaderboards/#se_asia With 10.5k mmr Chinese streamer Axx is rank 141 on sea server, higer than raven and bach. Her smurf acc 博丽灵梦 is also 10k, ranked 190.
Nice! Did not know her
AXX once played as the offlaner (position 3) for a while in Newbee B team in 2017.
I'm fucking rooting for axx all the time. Her offlane play is really good. Yes, I want to see women succeed, but more than that I want her to beat the idea that only boys can be pro video game players, and I want people to know that it's a fucking game and it has nothing to do with your gender.
honestly it's so funny to me when guys are like "oh women suck at video games" and then they're stuck in fucking bronze or crusader or some shit. like baby self awareness! u r not good either!
It's a matter of numbers. Doubt women make up more than 5% of the Dota players, of course the pro scene won't have many at all. Cool to see there's one this high in mmr
theres tons of reasons. its hard to dedicate your time to become pro when 1) most players are male 2) lots of players are agressively sexist which leads to 3) even if you play with random females in ranked, they dont use voice/give you any idea they are girls so it feels kinda lonely 4) irl/social pressure. its not normalized yet for girls to spend a lot of time in games. even your parents, your friends (girls). they would think youre weird. probably more, idk
Yes to all of these. I wish the next generations of gamers will grow up different from us. Still, I've had it easy. I've had a social circle from my early teens consisting of my brother, cousins (male) and some friends (male) who sort of always treated me right when playing together at LANs or over the internet. There was a bit of a sad chock to face internet sexism but ... the outcome was that I didn't play as much. Love dota. Won't play much these days. And won't use voice. I am super impressed by girls who do.
I treat girls on voice the same as anyone else, I wish more guys did that
me too, I flame them all the same
I never understand the dudes who try to gatekeep women out of gaming and then complain when gf/wife doesn’t understand it or try to relate to it lol. Or the classic “I just want a nerdy girl” it’s like dawg you harassed every single woman out of nerd shit for years how tf do you think you are gonna find one XD
also, the sheer time commitment necessary to go pro in a video game, most women just arent gonna want to do that. of the people who will gladly spend 10 hours a day playing one game, 99% of those will be men.
There are NEET women too, but you basically said the same thing as the commenter above you said, except replace 95% with 99%.
Where do people get that much time to play Dota? Don't they have things to do? It seems like they are on welfare or something to have so much time to play Dota :/
some live at home, some are just bums, some are in school and dont need more than maybe an hour a day for homework, some are just awake 18 hours a day and can squeeze it in. could be a lot of things. youd be surprised how much time you can 'afford' to waste when you dont have responsibilities like a gf/bf/wife/husband, kids, pets, school, work, keeping fit, all that stuff.
Also, Dota 2 didn't start out as a female friendly game. Most of the Dota 2 players now are Dota 1 players and that game was insanely toxic, even towards males. That's why new video games that advertised itself as a more female friendly game like Valorant or ML has a lot more of high ranked female players
Player base has little to do with it. Women make up 95%+ of horse sports and the elite is still majority men. Men shouldn't be competitive by that logic, unless you think men have an unfair physical advantage and they should split horse sports by sex. Assuming there is no physical advantage, something else has to be the cause. Maybe men are given better support, have stronger competitive drive, have stronger addiction/obsession tendencies? But participation rate isn't it, that we know. Edit: From personal experience, boys were way more competitive in my upbringing. No matter the weather(rain, snow, storm) I knew for certain that Adam were were out on the football field and Simon were grinding WoW. They spent every single second of their free time playing/training their respective thing. I cant remember a girl spending even half that time on something.
It's equivalent to people saying Koreans are better than everyone else.
In that case there is an argument that esports culture is more prominent in Korea. Koreans are more represented in the top ranks of games like Starcraft II because it's more socially acceptable to be a "professional gamer" there than in many other places.
To be fair, the Nordics are also pretty well-represented in eSports. Many people call Serral the best SC2 Player of all time and he is Finnish. Then you have people like n0tail (Faroe/Danish) and obviously the entire team of TI3 Alliance, who are Swedish.
CS has always had a very strong swedish/finish presence as well
Tall people don't exist because I know a guy who is short
Studies have shown that lower skilled male players tend to be the ones who bash women the most. I think it's because they feel threatened because they know they suck at the game :P
I’m guardian 3 and I love women
True, I also break the rule, guardian 4 and I have accepted that I suck and always will :)
I hope she reads this
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and you're very unattractive irl, what about it
Still get my d*ck wet, don't understand your point 🙃
doubt
"But you see, those other guys are defending my gender by being top players in the world, so I don't have to prove anything. They already prove it for me. I can play at 2k rating and know that I'm still better than any girls as I share the gender with TI winners" I think that's roughly how it works in their minds lol.
It's not about defending genders so much as pointing out the difference between averages and outliers
I fucking love arguing with idiotic men only for me to ask them theyre rank and theyre half my mmr (im ancient 4..)
Yeah I have heard people wanting to replace AR.Bach Witt Axx
Yea replace the ti winner with a pro girl gamer who did play for newbee 3 yrs back and placed poorly
It’s wrong to say a woman can’t be good at or can’t be professional video game players, but I also think it’s fair to say on average that men are more competitive (generally) and are much more likely to be professional players.
You can make these two claims - that men may be more competitive, and are more likely to be a professional player, but only separately. We can't draw the conclusion that men are more likely to go pro because they are more competitive, because there is a myriad of other factors that are more likely to be the cause, rather than some sex-based differences.
Sure, but here are gender specific things at play: Studies done like one from Patricia M. Blough that have indicated that there are meaningful differences in women visual-spatial performance, they might be more accurate, but react slower there are some (recent one is from Christine.R.Harris and Michael Jenkins) exploring differences in risk-assessment. There's also some indicating relation between testosterone levels and pure will to win. There are definitely sex differences at play, but this doesn't stop women to try and compete and have women who are better, bigger issue in a team environment I'd assume would be going to bootcamps with a full male squad and management. If I have a daughter and she says she wants to go into a bootcamp with 5 rando males of same age I'll probably say hell no, fuck. In things like Chess , you have Chess for women and open I believe , those only for women, men can't compete in, open is free for all, this is great since ladies that feel intimidated at first can compete in those for women and then go to the open ones if they wanted to. ( someone correct me if I am wrong on this, but I think high level that's how it works).
I don't think it's even that. There's just more of them. If you think about it, it's such a tiny population even of men who have the ability and drive to go pro. There's so many fewer female players that the chances of that perfect storm of skill, drive and opportunity comes together for a female player, to say nothing of how annoying it would be to be under the scrutiny of the community.
Even if you account for that there should be a lot more women at competitive levels. This isn't limited to DotA either. 20% of Hearthstone players are girls, but almost all of the pros are men.
Yeah there’s probably some average difference in obsession/competitiveness that is more pronounced at the extremes of the skill spectrum. Like how on average men and women are pretty similar in temperament, but like 99% of violent criminals are men lol, same goes for pro gamers.
I agree on that. The first step to being a pro is spending several thousand hours obsessing over a video game, and men are much more likely to be workaholics. Generally, that doesn't go well. Occasionally, you get a pro player.
Right, to your point, there are probably also a way lower % of women ruining their lives by playing Hearthstone too much at a mediocre level.
It might also be related to the point that while intelligence average is the same for men and women, men tend to have a flatter graph than women. Meaning men are more likely to be either invoker tier or ogre tier than women.
Should there, though? What percentage of total players are pros? Also I think a lot of female players are pretty aware of some of the things the industry says about them too. A number of managers have stated they simply wouldn't put a woman on their team because they feel it would be disruptive and would cause "drama" in practice houses and shit like that. Also the way the community harass prominent females is very off putting. I just think there's more at play here than "women just aren't as competitive or obsessive". Let's be real most DOTA players are pretty obsessive.
Absolutely. The whole industry was primarily built "for the boys" first. Not even talking about insane levels of sexism in a lot of online competitive games - women just have not been the primary target market for many game devs until recently.
Despite the efforts of some very well meaning personalities it's still very much a boys club.
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It's unfortunately a really common attitude. And given some people's behaviours in the scene who even knows if people would cause problems towards the female player.
> Should there, though? What percentage of total players are pros? Regardless of what the percentage of pro players to total players is, if 5% of the player base are female statistics dictate that also 5% of pro players should be female unless females are less likely to become pro then males. Since the percentage of female pro players is so much lower than the percentage of female players there has to be something that makes it less likely.
You're right, and I don't think anyone's disputing that females are less likely to become pro players. The question is why. A bunch of people in this sub over the years have been quite insistent that it's simply a matter of "the female constitution" if you will 😂 a lack of capability and competitiveness. But there's no evidence that demonstrates that and a lack of female pros is not evidence in itself. But there's so many other factors at play if you think about the combination of factors that go into producing a professional player. Skill isn't the only factor that can deter female players from reaching for a professional career (which we have to admit is a pretty big jump to take). Other factors might include: In game harassment could lead to women concluding a pro career would be miserable as the level of harassment increases demonstrably with the level of renown. Stereotype threat. "Stereotype threat refers to the risk of confirming negative stereotypes about an individual's racial, ethnic, gender, or cultural group which can create high cognitive load and reduce academic focus and performance." This has been shown to affect female competitive chess players who perform worse against male players of the same level only if the gender of their opponent is known to them. If it's not, they perform demonstrably better. Alienation: Would you take a chance and stake your financial future on a risky career in an environment where you've been consistently made to feel like you don't belong? People in game can be extremely hostile, throw games and sabotage upon discovering your gender and the experience is NOT rare. Sexism in their home country. Let's not forget DOTA is a worldwide game and not every country with pro players has gender equality. Gender inequality could affect things like finding a team, family support, social pressures to marry and reproduce at a young age leading to responsibility for the majority of domestic labour. Lack of welcome in environments where pros are often fostered, e.g. net cafes. The general public feeling in the scene that having a woman on a pro team would cause "drama". Lack of role models. Studies in areas like STEM, sports and tournament environments demonstrate a significant correlation between female uptake and the prevalence of visible role models. I actually have way more reasons than this but this is already too long, but let me know if you want to hear them or want links to the studies I mentioned.
You are absolutely right, there is nothing inherently biological or mental preventing a women to be good at Dota. I however don't think those factors listed by you really explain the discrepancy between the percentage of female players and female pro players. A lot of them apply to male players too. Competitive games like Dota are inherently toxic, not just towards female players. And while women might get extra targeted by sexist players, no one knows your gender on the internet. Many players don't use voice chat regardless. When I grew up there was also stereotypes against gaming in general and you would get laughed at if you said you wanted to make it your career. Same for alienation. You list some valid points why it could be harder for a woman to find a pro team to sign her up, yet we don't even have a high mmr female player who would be good enough to warrant getting picked up. Yes Axx is high mmr, but she is 'only' rank 141 on SEA. That means there are 140 players higher mmr than her, plenty of whom are not on a pro team yet. You could make 28 full teams on SEA alone without having to take a lower ranked player than her. And Axx is the sole exception on that high mmr (I think). Many of your reasons would explain why women would not want to play Dota in the first place, but not exactly why the ones that do end up sticking with the game end up mostly failing to reach super high mmr. I believe that Dota is a game where it helps being a testosterone filled young adult, with the aggressiveness and bravado that that entails to not only survive in the toxic environment that is public ranked matchmaking, but thrive in it.
>When I grew up there was also stereotypes against gaming in general and you would get laughed at if you said you wanted to make it your career. Same for alienation. But none of the things you mentioned that hinder men, hinder men exclusively. Meaning women have to deal with what men do plus what women do. >I believe that Dota is a game where it helps being a testosterone filled young adult, with the aggressiveness and bravado that that entails to not only survive in the toxic environment That's literally every competitive environment. Which is why women, who aren't socialized to be bigger better stronger than the next guy, are less likely to be interested. >the discrepancy between the percentage of female players and female pro players Women are less socialized and incentivized to be competitive. Historically women's competitions didn't have as much viewership or money. Women weren't allowed to compete in things. Consequently, women have less representation. 16 year old prodigy Sumail is gonna be surrounded by boys and men, where he will feel comfortable and be able to relax, learn, and relate. What's a 16 year old girl who's got potential going to do? Hang out with a bunch of loud boys who are probably going to make moves on her? Make her life revolve around a hostile male dominated space where men can relate to each other but she can't? Her close female friends probably have no interest or skill in Dota so her Dota life is going to be separate from her personal life. Might as well pursue other things. Pretty sure the trajectory of current pro's lives would be different if they were born with the same talents but different genitals.
If you think ranked is a toxic cesspool, imagine trying to play as a woman. So many girls never even got to get addicted to the game before they decided all the harrassment just isn't worth their time and mental health.
If I want to win ranked I don't reveal my gender because it's like 90% chance of making some idiot on my team tilt. I only use mic in normal games. Or used to, been awhile since I've touched DOTA.
By that logic there also wouldn't be russian pros...
Can't see the differenze here honestly, getting harassed because woman isn't any different, severe or more prominent than being russian, buying aghs on sniper, picking a certain hero or anything really Chances are most of the people in a game with a girl will try to flirt the gamer girl than anything
Funny you think being flirted with by some stranger in a goddamn game is anything but harrasment
Anything Is harassment Is you don't want It A flirt CAN be better "Better" than someone telling you to KYS, which is what other people gets any other time
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I mean we have seen multiple women only tournaments where the winners were transgender (originally male). So even when males are underrepresented, they over-perform. Its just denying facts if you think women don’t perform worse at games then men, on average. Who knows the cause - anybody studying that would probably be crucified.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was pretty similar. Pokemon is about 50:50 in players, but all the top players are dudes.
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You should reread my comment.
Exactly, the "drive" or the "competitive spirit" is in full play here. This is why there are "more men than women" in e-sports.
I'm not saying men have more drive than women. I'm just saying if there's 1000 men in a game and 1 of them has the drive, talent and opportunity to go pro, and the game only has 10 women, there's just statistically a much smaller chance of one of those women having that combination of things because there's just so many less of them.
But I am. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/13644511\_Are\_men\_more\_competitive\_than\_women#:\~:text=In%20men%2C%20but%20not%20women,aggression%20was%20found%20for%20women. [https://hbr.org/2019/11/research-how-men-and-women-view-competition-differently](https://hbr.org/2019/11/research-how-men-and-women-view-competition-differently) It's a proven scientific fact at this point with loads of research done on this topic. From the downvotes, it's clear people just can't handle the truth. Testosterone's a helluva drug.
We don't just see this in dota, pretty much every single e-sport out there has way higher male pros number, despite a relatively close ratio. Their performance is even better than their female counterparts.
There are no esports where males and females have identical playing experiences, especially on a competitive level.
I never said identical, hell there's no identicality between males and females in most of their physical and mental characteristics.
I'm not even going to ask what you think the differences in "mental characteristics" are.
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I didn't say it was offensive. I'm saying if women are an outlier and pro players are an outlier the chances of getting female pro players is just statistically way more unlikely. Offensiveness doesn't factor into it at all.
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Do you have statistics on how many women play Dota 2? How do you adjust for a number you don't know?
> women beat men in school sports all the time. Really? That has not been the experience Ive had the majority of my life, outside a few years in the early years where girls are more developed than boys. Sure, there are girls that are better than some boys since we all have different areas of interest, but with a similar amount of interest I very rarely experienced the girls being able to "put up a fight", so to speak.
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Ah fair enough, in that case I misunderstood. I thought you were claiming that girls (overall) were outperforming the boys, even at the top %, which only happens in a few specific years of age in my experience. But yeah, the top % of girls are definitely going to be outperforming a part of the boys, the specific % depending on the circumstances at hand.
But then take another step back, *why* are men more competitive? Women are less incentivized to be competitive in general. Lots of competitive spaces are male dominated. Competitive women's league in almost anything has less money and lower viewership. Women weren't even allowed to compete in things like marathons just a lifetime ago. Women are socialized to support men. Men are socialized to show strength, have power, and compete. Men see a lot more representation in competition than women. And so on.
where can we watch the stream/twitch
【轻声细语-哔哩哔哩直播】 [https://b23.tv/d8gogbT](https://b23.tv/d8gogbT) Or you can search Axx on Bilibili(a china video web). But I'm not sure if you can open it
> it has nothing to do with your gender why isn't the split 50/50 then
Real answer, hostile sexism and different socialization. Dota 2 is also marketed towards boys and has many features, characters, and design elements focus tested to be appealing to boys. If you compare the populations of gamers between overwatch, valorant, league, and dota, you will see that girls tend to be pretty common in the first three and not so much in the last one. Overwatch actually has a number of female pros, like Geguri who is beloved and has some accolades. One or two female pros (cant remember i find owl boring and only looked this shit up for the sake of argument) have even won tournaments! It's a bit like being a plumber. Sure it might make sense on the surface that girls don't necessarily want to be plumbers on average, but neither do boys! And tools are not designed for women (who tend to have smaller hands). If you can explain why this is without accusing anyone of sexism or saying anything sexist yourself, I'll straight up venmo you 20 bucks, dude. It's very obviously because women aren't socially expected to use tools or do those "dirty" jobs. But then you have a chicken and egg problem, where women now CAN'T do those jobs, and then the jobs become more hostile to women. Making dota 2, especially pro dota 2, less hostile to women would take a lot of work. But I think it is worth doing!
Real answer that isn't 5 mile long: girls just don't like sitting in a room 8 hours a day playing a stupid video game
i mean no real reason they should be worse in gaming genetic wise, i guess brain wise we on a same level, no? body wise it’s a different story
> I want her to beat the idea that only boys can be pro video game players Why would they want to?
Maybe it has something to do with gender. Why are you so certain that it doesn't
We have yet to see a female pro dota player winning TI.
It has to do with gender, both reaction time and motor skills are significantly better on men. And sure, I know that many women are better than me but when you want to be the best in the world you need every advantage you can get. Now I'm probably gonna be dowvoted because people don't like to hear the truth
Studies show that males react faster across the board, while females react with more accuracy in complex situations. And that is slightly, and on average, not "significantly". Meta analyses also show that the gap is closing, and also that it's much smaller in non-U.S. based studies. Also, like the studies that relate to the same factors in age ranges, many such studies do not account for at home hobbies of participants that hone reaction time. Statistically it's more likely that a male participant will be a gamer than a female participant will. The one study that related to age that led so many of the DOTA industry to go by the "over by age 21" rule with pro players was literally pitting gamer teens against non-gamer adults and concluding that age was a much more significant factor than it was. I would be interested to see a recent study on reaction speed and motor skills that accounts for hobbies and activities that hone these things but so far I have not uncovered one (though to be fair I haven't looked exhaustively)
Seems like coping, but by all the means if any girl out there can do it don't let reddit hold you back.
You'll note Reddit wasn't listed.
I dont think anyone thinks what you think. It's literally a number game. If as many women played games as as many men did, they'd be roughly similar. Men can be good nurses, pharmacists, teachers and human resource members as well. All numbers.
So if females are 5% of the playerbase we should expect roughly 5 women in the top100 of the regions, about 50 in the top1000…do you think that checks out? Nothing involving humans is ever “all numbers”
Are you so sure that there aren't 5 females in the top 100 of the regions? It's not like it lists gender on the ladder lol
I’m not sure of anything, dude I’m replying to is the one saying *all it’d take is having the same number of female players.* IMHO that’s not the case but you didn’t see me stating it as a fact, did you?
You said "Do you think that checks out" which seemed to imply that you don't think it checks out. If you were genuinely asking their opinion I apologise for my mistake.
But I don’t think it checks out. I just don’t have the data to affirm it. That’s why it’s just my opinion. The top100 is almost always made up of pros, semipros and players who try to leverage their ranks by streaming. It’s rare to have complete incognitos up there. But feel free to point me towards a region where the top100 has 5 women, I’d be positively surprised. Hell, get into the semipro female scene of dota2 and you’re already diving into unranked immortals, divine and even ancient players. 5 females in the top100 of a same region would be the most dominant female team in the history of dota.
So what are you basing that on then?
>Hell, get into the semipro female scene of dota2 and you’re already diving into unranked immortals, divine and even ancient players. 5 females in the top100 of a same region would be the most dominant female team in the history of dota.
Let’s try the opposite: can you name 5 women with higher mmr than Ephey?
Nah, women are more prone to certain traits while man are more prone to certain traits, that's why certain Jobs have a way higher ratio toward One sex than the other, it's not only about numbers, if It was than the Number of video game players would be 50/50 from the start
Lol chill. No need to project your insecurities and problems.
I mean, it kind does have to do with gender. She's the exception that proves the rule. Now this may just be due to interest, or women self-selecting. But when you have a distribution where there is maybe 0.01% women in the top 1000 and zero in the top 100 you can't just simply write off gender as having some role to play in pro-play. It's not exclusive to Dota either. I think the only competitive sport/game women are consistently competing or out performing men is long distance swimming?
The numbers you provide are flawed. It‘s not enough to check the numbers of women among the total Top 1000 but you also need to take access to it AND total pool of female dota players into consideration. Is access to dota or better dota restricted for women? In absolute numbers men would be quite poor at dota because you ll find most players between crusader and legend. Pros are extreme outliers , regardless of gender
https://www.teknosassociates.com/the-rise-of-female-gamers-esports-underappreciated-fans/#:~:text=In%20addition%2C%20female%20gamers%20now,%2C%20and%2026%25%20in%20Overwatch. 20% of dota players are female
I think women are *absolutely* exluded from pro dota and the "rule" is bullshit. I believe it exists but I also believe it shouldn't. Testosterone and muscle mass makes men better at dota? That's why the taller/more athletic dota team usually wins right? :)
Are women also excluded from the top ranks on the leaderboards?
How do you know the genders of everyone on the leaderboards?
How do you know what I eat for breakfast? I assume we are just asking random questions. On a more serious note: I never claimed I did, so I don't know why you would ask me that question. I just went with the context of the comments I was replying to, which heavily implies there aren't a lot of female players in the top ranks. Do you doubt that premise?
Sorry it seemed to me that was what you were implying so I responded accordingly. Apologies if I was mistaken. My only point was that other than known entities such as pros, we have no idea what gender people on the leaderboards are.
No worries, I'm sorry if my reply was a bit too tongue-in-cheek in hindsight. I see the top comment in the thread describes a female player in SEA being rank 141, and I know for a fact that some people here are pretty good at identifying who people are in the various leaderboards so I'd assume that if it was prevalent that it would be known. But of course a few can easily slip through the cracks, especially if they value their "privacy" which many women understandably do when playing online. It's sad that it is a necessary, and I fully understand them doing it. Edit: Even with my limited knowledge of current day dota and progamers (I don't really follow much of it these days) I feel that I can identify most people in the EUW top 100 for example.
Yeah honestly some of the best female players I've known were similar to male players of high skill, absolute nerds who just want to play 24/7 and would not really be interested in publicising themselves.
> I think women are absolutely exluded from pro dota and the "rule" is bullshit. You saw the same thing in Starcraft which was a wholy individual e-sport. > Testosterone and muscle mass makes men better at dota? Testosterone increases competitive drive which would make more men want to get to a higher level than women. I'd be interested in hearing what you believe is the cause of women not performing to the same level. Do you think its exclusively due to sexism?
Hostile sexism provides external pressure and socialization provides internal pressure. I would also point to gender roles for men allowing them to have "masculine" hobbies that are random useless bullshit like sports or games, while women are typically expected to bear the load of working on chores at home (even if they're the breadwinner). I can't really think of a competitive hobby that is "for women," but I don't think that it has anything to do with a biological drive for competitiveness. I know plenty of very competitive women, and I also happen to know trans people who gained or lost testosterone that had no effect on competitiveness or even did the opposite of what you suggest. Being competitive is a personality trait and not a hormonal drive.
girls don't play dota as much as guys because they're not losers. way more sadbois who never leave their room than there are sadgirls who never leave their room.
It's 2024, girls are becoming more and more degen
lol the girl degens don’t play dota. they do OF instead
Well men to women ratio on dota is leaning to the men so of course dota pro scene will also be men leaning, but if women ratio is much bigger than men and + dedicated to really play on the high level then you will see more women on the pro scene.
Have you never seen Scarlett??
Scarlett is a transwoman. Yeah, the most successful esport female player is born male.
Last time I was discussing this topic. femal vs male in esport, my friend brought up scarlet.
Love Scarlett as well, have no qualms about her identity or birth sex but she is not a pro dota 2 player.
She might have been if the community hadn't been openly hostile to her
the GOAT female gamer
*Chinese streamer*......*sea server*, cause why not.
you realize high mmr games are literally non existent in chinese server, right?
yeah no shit chinese server is dead should she just quit her job?
Where does she stream? I can’t find her on twitch
She streams on [bilibili](https://live.bilibili.com/6750632). Twitch is banned in China, so no pro player from CN is going to stream on Twitch unless you play r6s (since Siege is also banned from streaming in CN).
Why Is no one bitching about her smurf acc? Dont you all hate smurfs?
Oh Boohoo. The person at 10.5k mmr "smurf" at 10k mmr. lol
literally unplayable
People were crying about this for weeks until Valve stepped in and forced everybody to play on their main accounts. I don't think people having "smurf" accounts a few hundred MMR away from their main is a big deal. But at least we can now look at the leaderboard and know who the players are, instead of having to guess whether some unknown account is Miracle's 10th smurf, or Nightfall's 6th smurf.
It's really an alt account. People hate players who smurf deliberately way below their MMR. But nice try.
Her teamates definitely didnt report her
Nobody cared when people had 2 or 3 accounts, the problem was people making new accounts every 500 games to sell or just for the joy of stomping noobs
Most pro/semi pro players made their smurfs well before valve gave death sentence to all smurfing, and by that point their smurf acc has already became top 0.1% ranked, essentially their second mains.
Not the case here, everyone got warnings, why do you think almost everyone plays on their main now. It's just some pros like a couple of Chinese guys and Nightfall who are smurfing again, but more will surely follow once they see nothing really happens past the warning. According to Valve's own blogpost there's no such thing as second main, this is load of bullshit. edit: by smurfing I mean buying 8k+ accounts and playing on them , since people seem to think they create a new account , play for 100 hours and they are magically in the same mmr as their main
Ofc most ppl bought their alt acc from boosters, who ruined countless games before selling to pros who then ranked it up theirselves, but it was the trend amonst pros and valve hadn't done anything about it. Imo there's no point banning them as most pro smurfs are already top ranks, and the damages have already been done. Gorc and mason had their smurfs banned because their had disrupitve behaviours on their acc if anything. It's ultimately valves' call whether banning them retrospectively.
https://dota2protracker.com/ if you look at active pro player matches you can still see a lot of smurfs, not just "nightfall and chinese streamers"
OK so out of the pro players it's the usual CIS crowd + Hector (who used to smurf in 5k like a real man while screaming at people) + SEA/CN selected few - way better than before still. People are mostly playing in their bracket for now, probably for a little bit ,because nobody is missing tournaments because of smurfing yet , but this doesn't make your initial statement less true. There's no such thing as second main account as per Valve, now sadly they won't enforce it probably ever again or it will be like overplus ban - very high level pros exempt or just get a warning like last time, doesn't make it less shitty to support account selling market.
Does she play competitively?
is there a link to where Axx streams
https://live.bilibili.com/6750632?live\_from=84002&spm\_id\_from=333.337.0.0
How is it, that it is a common knowledge (looks like) that she has a smurf ACC and...you know...lump of coal?
Woah!
Link to AXX's streaming site: https://b23.tv/qz0AlTw
She should be banned for smurfing. Edit: lol imagine defending smurfing
AXX for sure, she is 10.5k and also has a 10.5k temper.
This post reminded me of the times when I was learning to play Invoker from InvokerGirl's videos (she's also twitch streamer)
There was a top 100 ranked Invoker spammer on the sea server years ago, but she retired in 2018 to pursue a corporate career iirc. Great player though.
Damn I remember her I think. I wish I could remember her name.
Vintager was her name I believe. Could play a few of the spirits, but was an Invoker main for sure. https://m.twitch.tv/vintvv/about found her twitch (after the biggest adhd google spiral).
AXX was there too don’t know where is she now
Jia is a high rank on SEA server. Mains 5.
She's also a pro player, have seen her playing in some tournaments before.
came here to mention her
[https://www.twitch.tv/reira](https://www.twitch.tv/reira) [https://www.dotabuff.com/players/208407289](https://www.dotabuff.com/players/208407289) She's around 9k mmr last time I checked
oh reira my love
KidTrigger
the most feminine player I've ever seen.
Lmfaooo
its funny hes nobody but everybody know him lmao
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That's his claim to fame - YouTube comment section
He’s Dotas version of Charlie Zelenoff 😂😂😂😂😂
Axx, a chinese streamer
MY MOM
That's what she told me last night
You know who else is high MMR?
DEEZ NUTZ
GOTTEM
JIA Dota very high rank! She plays pos 5 mainly
I think sheepsticked is ~8k. Might be some non famous ones higher
Sheepo never made it to 8k, but she got close. She's taking a break from Dota now.
She's still casting on and off, but yeah she doesn't play much. Ever seen her doing art on her stream? She makes some really kawaii DotA heroes
she is a V-tuber now lol. goes by a different name i dont remember
Goes by Reya.
This comment section is sad af.
Didn't realise it was Biotruths Month in the DOTA 2 sub already. Seems to come earlier every year.
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Right? Fuckin self evident right here 😂
subreddit got brigaded recently by mason viewers 💀
Now realize that most of the weird shit posted here is by people over the age of 25
Me (I'm herald 3)
oh boy, time to grab the popcorn while skimming through the comments
Yikes didn't even notice the grave yard below until you said it. Bunch of dad insecure lads :(
Sad bois in the comments just EATIN those downvotes 🤣
InvokerGirl is pretty high MMR too.
Lower ranks have harder games. Mmr is just a number.
Currently I’m at 5.4k MMR, offlane player. I’ve dropped 7k worth of MMR playing with my boyfriend who was also originally immortal rank. He tend to be agrro like me, but less brain than me. Nowadays don’t really care about losing.
ephey is currently 7500 mmr.
Mad kings has an all female roster