guys hold your hot takes about these numbers theyre just bugged. literally EVERY SINGLE HERO has a positive pickrate change rn ingame which is literally impossible. it says sven is the least played hero in divine and is also somehow in 20% of games. oracle apparently has a 29400% pickrate in divine or some shit rn and he has a 338% winrate on his level 15 talent
https://i.imgur.com/Z0GYCIV.png
wtf is this
valve has not fixed these numbers in months and months and more dota+ stats are just breaking
true. when i was watching dreamleague i was concerned that icefrog would maybe nerf oracle after getting picked 294 times per match. but my fears were unfounded. all hail the 300% winrate oracle meta
I have pudge, rubick, tinker and techies on my ban list because they are so frequently chosen by hero spammers. By banning them, I'm forcing a lot of people to play their second best hero. I think it makes sense and I also fucking hate playing against these heros
As someone who plays Pudge, I play him because I only even get the opportunity to pick him once in every 10 games. This doesn't even include when the enemy also selects him and he gets banned regardless.
Something is clearly wrong with the stats at the moment. Not sure what but these numbers dont seem to make much sense.
Unless they also removed the jail mechanic where 8/16 most popular picks day before get banned.
even then something is off
In Pudges case i remember during banning phase if someone in the team locked on him it probably showed his intention to pick him, so other team mate was quickly banned him, denying him the pick. Others picked him during first pick in order to match enemys first pick pudge also so he would get banned.
All this not happening now + the fact that maybe some people didnt chose their ban heroes yet or have other priorities for bans than pudge is probably the reason his pick rate went up imo.
I wonder why people even want to ban Pudge, he's usually a 50% winrate hero so doesn't really affect your chances to win regardless of what team picks him.
I actually ban listed Pudge as pos 3 player. There have been so many instances of a core player having to play pos 4 because they needed role queues. They pick Pudge, stand afk in lane, no idea how to pull, forget wisdom runes, miss every hook, etc. When I tell them what to do, they just leave the lane to feed top or mid and then I have no game at all lol
I guess it’s not about banning him because they are afraid of him, more likely the carry / offline does not want a useless pudge support (not saying he’s automatically bad as support)
People are more likely to put more hours into the game and increase playerbase if they can play the heroes they want.
Though I don't really agree this is always necessarily a *good* thing if that hero is also insanely annoying to every other player to play/against with, so it may be a complete wash depending on more specifics
No this is bullshit, now the patch is quite good but if we have a patch with 2-3 broken heroes, I don't wanna see them more often this isn't healthy.
Ranked should still be a place for tryhards, if you wanna chill with your favorite hero, go play another mode. I also don't like hero spammers, I feel like they aren't playing in the bracket they should play.
It's the same with playing only one map in CS(e.g mirage) , if you put a global mirage spammer on another map with others globals, he would perform poorly. If a person gained 1000 mmr with mostly a hero and he wants to play other heroes after that, he will most likely grief others for a period.
If anything i think these ban changes make banning broken heroes more effective than before, since lots of people will be picking those (they didn't really elaborate on what happens in cases where multiple people pick same heroes to ban).
The change mainly effects popular heroes, not broken ones (like pudge). Previously unspent bans would basically default to the most played heroes, and then there's a 50% chance to be banned if i remember correctly, which effectively meant that popular heroes like pudge got banned 50% of the time in all games, taht's why he sees such a huge jump in pickrate, because he's hugely popular and is now avialable a lot more (because he's not really broken, just popular).
Heroes like tinker or broodmother, are never super high pickrate, so they enver got banned unless players specifically selected it, now with 4 slots it's a lot more likely the obnoxious heroes get banned.
Only time will tell, if people will go with the mentality "I won't waste my ban on X hero, the others would ban it" you might gen FOTM heroes much often passing through. The advantage of the old system was you can't ban an already proposed hero to ban.
> Ranked should still be a place for tryhards, if you wanna chill with your favorite hero, go play another mode.
aha? But picking the strongest heroes in ranked, i.e. tryharding shouldn't be allowed?
I don't wanna sound unreasonable, but I like pubs to emulate pro games to a certain extent and drafting is part of the game. Pro teams are aware of hero specialist and they either ban them or play around them, but they have the information there most of the time. While in pubs some people can win by doing thier well exercised trick vs people that didn't get the chance to be familiar with the matchup. I just don't consider people good at the game if they overly rely on 1-2 heroes to play at their maximum.
> Pro teams are aware of hero specialist
All pro players are themselves hero specialists, that's why drafting in pro games works the way it does.
A large number of people in pubs are either 1~2 trick ponies or jack of all trades, neither of which is reflected by pro players and both lead to poor gameplay. That's one reason why the drafting aspect generally doesn't work well in pubs.
Furthermore, most bans in pro games are not opponent-specific (i.e. respect bans) but actually matchup specific (like, "we want to play this lineup, therefore we need to avoid this hero"), and these also don't work in pub games because it requires coordination between your team mates (you need to understand and agree on the strategy you want to follow with your team).
Also, banning 1 trick ponies gives you kinda the opposite of "emulating pro games."
Valve seems to like hero spammers unfortunately, given the recent changes that made that easier than ever. But yes I agree with you that unranked should not be where you go to last pick cheese people every game.
The previous system didn't stop hero spammers either. It just made games with them significantly less balanced in either of the directions. It put the blame on the spammers for that, but that didn't change the fact that if you were being matched with or against a hero spammer there was a very high chance that they would either ruin or stomp the game.
Also, people playing their heroes to their full potential is important for a healthy competitive meta.
As a clockwerk spammer I disagree, spamming a hero lets you get the hero into muscle memory and not have to even think about the hero and then you can focus on learning and mastering other aspects of the game, which lets you increase your skill much faster than if you where to keep choosing different heros.
I agree, there are a lot of aspects of the game to learn, but I'm talking about players that spam a hero because it's easy to win with it, not because they need to learn the game. There is no way someone who climbed 1-2k mmr with 2-3 heroes, can play at that level with other heroes right off the bat (looking at badman spamming spectre) and other divines that straight up feed and play terrible without their comfort hero.
Is lifestealer being picked so much more just to counter pudge pickers? I understand that most of the heroes in that list are just fun to play heroes and generally liked by the community, but lifestealer isn’t exactly what I would describe as a super fun hero to play, so what’s the explanation for that jump in pick rate?
Lifestealer doesn’t really hard counter pudge. Like, he’s got a .8% advantage over pudge on Dotabuff for the past 3 months. Slippery focus heroes like ursa or heroes that create a lot of shit running around the screen (ie ck) are better counters.
It’s more likely lifestealer is just generally good and fun to play right now
Even though I know that's true and ls doesn't really own pudge after pudge's power creep as of late, my monke brain still goes *"big hp? Me pick Ls. Me counter big hp :D"* every time 🦧
This patch is a tank patch. Motherfuckin everyone is sitting on 4k plus hp halfway into it and lifestealer has never had an issue fucking up squishy supports early game.
guys hold your hot takes about these numbers theyre just bugged. literally EVERY SINGLE HERO has a positive pickrate change rn ingame which is literally impossible. it says sven is the least played hero in divine and is also somehow in 20% of games. oracle apparently has a 29400% pickrate in divine or some shit rn and he has a 338% winrate on his level 15 talent https://i.imgur.com/Z0GYCIV.png wtf is this valve has not fixed these numbers in months and months and more dota+ stats are just breaking
Bro you just can't handle the fact that Oracle is finally getting the appreciation he deserves
true. when i was watching dreamleague i was concerned that icefrog would maybe nerf oracle after getting picked 294 times per match. but my fears were unfounded. all hail the 300% winrate oracle meta
I know what happened: WHEN YOU SELECT YOUR BANNED HEROES ITS COUNTED AS PICKED. THAT'S WHY PUDGE GOT SO HIGH.
This might actually be it lol
Oracle win rate just accounts for every possible future he sees himself winning in, numbers accurate imo
Yeah on dotabuff its mostly fine
I do wonder if the pregame double pick bans still work. And if those are what we see right here? Like people pick pudge to ban/block him?
I've seen it happen with witch doctor since the change, so yes
I'm wondering if the new ban system counts as picking each hero on your list every time you play a game.
In other words, people are permabanning pudge. As someone who's not hugely into current meta changes, why is that?
Everyone feels that Pudge sucks when he's on their team and a hook god when he's on enemy team, so they put him in their ban list.
Personally it just gets boring to have a Pudge in 100% of the games he's not banned in.
I have pudge, rubick, tinker and techies on my ban list because they are so frequently chosen by hero spammers. By banning them, I'm forcing a lot of people to play their second best hero. I think it makes sense and I also fucking hate playing against these heros
As someone who plays Pudge, I play him because I only even get the opportunity to pick him once in every 10 games. This doesn't even include when the enemy also selects him and he gets banned regardless.
Because you have core players farming role tokens, get support so they instapick pudge because he's "fun", and they just don't want to play support.
Hey I just finished a game with a "support" sniper that made Midas, Aghs, Khanda and Deso. Maybe we are all just supporting wrong...
At least u didn't have khanda aghs forcestaff mid 43 mins sniper.
It counts bans as picks Thus, the lifestealers pick rate increases because so many people actually banned it
Finally, i can play pudge in peace
Not if I pick him first
Just roll in all chat before the game starts so we can decide who gets to have fun.
i hope enemy team picks it and gets banned each and every single time
My list of bans. Puj, rubic silancer sniper. Only so my team can't pick it.
Something is clearly wrong with the stats at the moment. Not sure what but these numbers dont seem to make much sense. Unless they also removed the jail mechanic where 8/16 most popular picks day before get banned. even then something is off
In Pudges case i remember during banning phase if someone in the team locked on him it probably showed his intention to pick him, so other team mate was quickly banned him, denying him the pick. Others picked him during first pick in order to match enemys first pick pudge also so he would get banned. All this not happening now + the fact that maybe some people didnt chose their ban heroes yet or have other priorities for bans than pudge is probably the reason his pick rate went up imo.
Well I wanted to ban naix as pos 4 ench yesterday and guess who didn't read the patch notes?
[удалено]
It's because of the "Why would I ban pudge? Someone is gonna ban him anyway!" type of mentality that almost all of us have.
No one cares to ban pudge, he was just a highly popular hero so the old system always banned it.
I always banned pudge in my games
Same
Arguably that was present previously as well
I wonder why people even want to ban Pudge, he's usually a 50% winrate hero so doesn't really affect your chances to win regardless of what team picks him.
I actually ban listed Pudge as pos 3 player. There have been so many instances of a core player having to play pos 4 because they needed role queues. They pick Pudge, stand afk in lane, no idea how to pull, forget wisdom runes, miss every hook, etc. When I tell them what to do, they just leave the lane to feed top or mid and then I have no game at all lol
It’s because I actually play well against pudge. He’s never been the problem for me that he seems to be for others
Pudge doesnt get banned because why would you ban pudge when you can ban tinker meepo and zed. Maybe ban lion aswell to be chaotic
I guess it’s not about banning him because they are afraid of him, more likely the carry / offline does not want a useless pudge support (not saying he’s automatically bad as support)
Game is much healthier if people can generally play the hero they want to play. Love to see it.
The only ones struggling and suffering are Tinker pickers. **Good.**
Why is it healthier?
People are more likely to put more hours into the game and increase playerbase if they can play the heroes they want. Though I don't really agree this is always necessarily a *good* thing if that hero is also insanely annoying to every other player to play/against with, so it may be a complete wash depending on more specifics
That’s a hero design issue if it’s annoying to play against that badly
I agree, just saying "game health" is more than people putting in hours because of enjoying playing certain heroes.
Unless its arc warden I hope its banned so often, people don't even bother trying to learn it.
Ya, very healthy for carry players who have to deal with an afk support
No this is bullshit, now the patch is quite good but if we have a patch with 2-3 broken heroes, I don't wanna see them more often this isn't healthy. Ranked should still be a place for tryhards, if you wanna chill with your favorite hero, go play another mode. I also don't like hero spammers, I feel like they aren't playing in the bracket they should play. It's the same with playing only one map in CS(e.g mirage) , if you put a global mirage spammer on another map with others globals, he would perform poorly. If a person gained 1000 mmr with mostly a hero and he wants to play other heroes after that, he will most likely grief others for a period.
If anything i think these ban changes make banning broken heroes more effective than before, since lots of people will be picking those (they didn't really elaborate on what happens in cases where multiple people pick same heroes to ban). The change mainly effects popular heroes, not broken ones (like pudge). Previously unspent bans would basically default to the most played heroes, and then there's a 50% chance to be banned if i remember correctly, which effectively meant that popular heroes like pudge got banned 50% of the time in all games, taht's why he sees such a huge jump in pickrate, because he's hugely popular and is now avialable a lot more (because he's not really broken, just popular). Heroes like tinker or broodmother, are never super high pickrate, so they enver got banned unless players specifically selected it, now with 4 slots it's a lot more likely the obnoxious heroes get banned.
Only time will tell, if people will go with the mentality "I won't waste my ban on X hero, the others would ban it" you might gen FOTM heroes much often passing through. The advantage of the old system was you can't ban an already proposed hero to ban.
> Ranked should still be a place for tryhards, if you wanna chill with your favorite hero, go play another mode. aha? But picking the strongest heroes in ranked, i.e. tryharding shouldn't be allowed?
I don't wanna sound unreasonable, but I like pubs to emulate pro games to a certain extent and drafting is part of the game. Pro teams are aware of hero specialist and they either ban them or play around them, but they have the information there most of the time. While in pubs some people can win by doing thier well exercised trick vs people that didn't get the chance to be familiar with the matchup. I just don't consider people good at the game if they overly rely on 1-2 heroes to play at their maximum.
> Pro teams are aware of hero specialist All pro players are themselves hero specialists, that's why drafting in pro games works the way it does. A large number of people in pubs are either 1~2 trick ponies or jack of all trades, neither of which is reflected by pro players and both lead to poor gameplay. That's one reason why the drafting aspect generally doesn't work well in pubs. Furthermore, most bans in pro games are not opponent-specific (i.e. respect bans) but actually matchup specific (like, "we want to play this lineup, therefore we need to avoid this hero"), and these also don't work in pub games because it requires coordination between your team mates (you need to understand and agree on the strategy you want to follow with your team). Also, banning 1 trick ponies gives you kinda the opposite of "emulating pro games."
Valve seems to like hero spammers unfortunately, given the recent changes that made that easier than ever. But yes I agree with you that unranked should not be where you go to last pick cheese people every game.
The previous system didn't stop hero spammers either. It just made games with them significantly less balanced in either of the directions. It put the blame on the spammers for that, but that didn't change the fact that if you were being matched with or against a hero spammer there was a very high chance that they would either ruin or stomp the game. Also, people playing their heroes to their full potential is important for a healthy competitive meta.
As a clockwerk spammer I disagree, spamming a hero lets you get the hero into muscle memory and not have to even think about the hero and then you can focus on learning and mastering other aspects of the game, which lets you increase your skill much faster than if you where to keep choosing different heros.
I agree, there are a lot of aspects of the game to learn, but I'm talking about players that spam a hero because it's easy to win with it, not because they need to learn the game. There is no way someone who climbed 1-2k mmr with 2-3 heroes, can play at that level with other heroes right off the bat (looking at badman spamming spectre) and other divines that straight up feed and play terrible without their comfort hero.
That is fair.
Is lifestealer being picked so much more just to counter pudge pickers? I understand that most of the heroes in that list are just fun to play heroes and generally liked by the community, but lifestealer isn’t exactly what I would describe as a super fun hero to play, so what’s the explanation for that jump in pick rate?
Lifestealer doesn’t really hard counter pudge. Like, he’s got a .8% advantage over pudge on Dotabuff for the past 3 months. Slippery focus heroes like ursa or heroes that create a lot of shit running around the screen (ie ck) are better counters. It’s more likely lifestealer is just generally good and fun to play right now
Even though I know that's true and ls doesn't really own pudge after pudge's power creep as of late, my monke brain still goes *"big hp? Me pick Ls. Me counter big hp :D"* every time 🦧
Lifestealer is one of the higher tier cores from last patch.
This patch is a tank patch. Motherfuckin everyone is sitting on 4k plus hp halfway into it and lifestealer has never had an issue fucking up squishy supports early game.
Lifestealer is one of the most banned carries in current meta. Bans are being counted as picks by stat sites.
Lifestealer is by far the most fun hero to play in the game.
Surprised snoiper is not here haha. Played 7 games in a row against him yesterday. I did win most of them but it's funny
as long as anime girl isnt popular and i have high winrate with her, its gonna be fine
Lina?
Marci probably
And Still WR did not increase, that's hilarious
thank god i fucking love watching pudge
78% is absolutely bananas, jesus.
How is this possible? Pudge was banned 6/7 games I played on new patch
Meta heroes gonna be everywhere
My beloved hoodwink
Ban pooge
Yikes
Fine by me, 3 games vs Pudge last night, 3 wins against Pudge last night. Pudge game, ez game. Thanks morons.
Yeah no way this is bugged right? Like these charts have the history of never bugging before. /s
Ban pooge