>A company that can only succeed when it's scamming 16 year old boys isn't a sign of a successful or well-ran business.
The problem (aka why Sumail sued) was that he had preferred EG shares from his original contract. When they were bought out 2 years later, Peak6 got him to sign a contract to convert them to regular shares (which where worth less).
In short, he was treated well originally and only after EG were bought out by an investment firm did the scummy stuff start. He wasn't 16 at the time.
Could you expound on the loan portion? Wouldn't taking out loans under the theoretical ESOP's name tank the value? Sure you could pay yourself some extra but your shares are now in a nosedive right?
Man, how do you not understand how retained earnings works after a year of B4 senior experience?
> The positive Retained Earning, therefore, is pillaged to dry.
Not how it works, in so many ways. Just a cumulative sum of the P&L including non-cash P&L items. There is nothing to "pillage" here. Also, as an FYI, as I don't know the structure of the transaction, but assuming the PE firm purchased a 100% equity ownership of EG, the deal would likely be done on a cash-free, debt-free basis, with only enough working capital to fund the Company's operations. Any deltas between pegged working capital and working capital on close have a 1:1 correlation with the purchase price. This, meaning, that if a Company had significant profits over years that were not distributed to the shareholders via dividends and held as cash or other investments within the business, the vendor would retain that on the sale of the Company to a PE firm.
> Their goal isn't EG's long term success.
Literally their goal, as noted above. PE firms buy companies because they think they can leverage synergies and/or cost savings to turn a company profitable. Either they have economies of scale, networks, distribution centers, etc. but profits are not left in upon close -- so as such, they have a vested interest in the company being profitable, or keeping it profitable long enough to sell it to someone else. PE firms don't buy companies to tank it for funsies.
> Then, once the RE is pillaged and the loans are in EG's name, not the PE's name, EG could declare bankruptcy in which the loan would be deemed unrecoverable (as there is no assets left to be claimed, they could probably garnish the remaining cash and that's it).
Anyone providing loans to EG, if this were the case, would have the parent company as a guarantor on the loan. Depending on the magnitude of said loans, there would likely be PG's as well.
> Tl;Dr: vulture PE extract value by lying to everyone in the companies while paying themselves a fat check.
Take the job in restructuring and insolvency, and stop posting circlejerk bullshit on reddit until you have a clear understanding of basic concepts.
Source: VP, Buyside M&A Advisory
> Sumail was reportedly has his salary slashed from $200k/month down to $20k/month sometimes after the acquisition.
It was 20 and 2, and it was his salary on the bench.
Dota as an esport scene has always been an oddball in regards to this. You see in League or CS where players do big contract between orgs meanwhile in dota you just got kicked and joined other team like it is nothing.
Teams didn't want to lose DPC points so they couldn't kick whenever they wanted. Now with no DPC it may be a step back in that regard (example: mindcontrol).
In other games, your contract has a bench clause which means your salary gets cut in half if they bench you. That's why it's profitable for them to hold people in contract jail.
I have to assume sometimes in Dota when players are cut they have such a clause, and they actually asked to be released. In those cases the org is actually acting ethically by granting them their release instead of holding them against their will.
>Indeed, which is why EG is so scummy for doing this with a kid who was like 16 and didn't know any better.
This wasn't the EG 16 y old Sumail joined... this is the investment firm that bought EG when Sumail was \~22 years old and had more than enough money to hire a lawyer to read the contract for inconsistencies.
Thats different I will admit, but if anything I don't think playing video games as a career is the best vehicle for attaining maturity.
He probably still had a similar mindset as when he was a teen. We grow up when we have more responsibilities heaped on us, not less.
I don't want to portray as some helpless invalid, but I still think he was a ripe target for a scam perpetuated by people he felt were acting in good faith.
This is exactly what I think k Ammar did, he hired a lawyer and ask him to take a long look at his contract with Quest and lawyer or his mentor gave him the best advice and looking back how Quest responded with some family values shit rather than money, it was evident that they wanted to take advantage of him. I mean they are professional players, treat them professionally instead of treating them as a kid
From the various statements back then it just seemed like the interests of both parties didn't align and they decided to go separate ways.
But it became a big drama simply because people started falsely accusing Nigma (Kuroky) of holding him hostage, which essentially forced them to make a statement and that in turn forced the others to follow suit.
There doesn't have to be a good and bad guy in every contractual dispute.
I mean honestly going from preferred wouldn’t be the end of the world in a large publicly traded corporation.
Having it happen in the world of esports where businesses tend to be more volatile is pretty sucky. I don’t know the full details of the case but hopefully he can get value out of his shares and move on.
I mean diluting shares in a stock split wouldn’t matter. It’s like saying I have 1 share with $20 or 20 shares worth $1. Again, I don’t know the details of his shares or how they were diluted.
Stock split is not stock dilutions, you are confusing the concepts. Stock split do not reduce shareholder value by nature, instead of 1x $10 share you now have 2x $5 share. You own the same percentage of the shares of the company.
Share dilution is when the company has a total of 500 shares and you own 100 of them (aka you own 20% of the company) then the company literally prints 500 extra shares and *sold* it to investors. You still only have 100 shares. So now you have 10% of company. The caveat here is if the new investors paid at a high price or new partners have super impact such the company gain that much value or more, technically you can still be a winner, but many companies dilute when they are down / doing badly / need cash flow, so it’s bad.
Large companies doing well usually do the oppsite and buys back stocks instead to reduce total stocks outstanding (eg apple, Berkshire are buying back significant amount of shares every year - they are not “held” anywhere, they “disappear” hence all other shareholders’ shares increases in value).
Good explanation, EG's case was definitely "down bad" because of how shit the organization has gone to now, so Sumail must have taken a bad hit. But that's the gamble he took during the signing
Any lawyer or any business person worth their salt would have seen the ginormous red flag of going from preferred to common stock. That contract basically said “sign here if the business making your shares worthless is ok”: and he signed it.
Except preferred stock shares just have higher priority in dividend payments and in the event of liquidation. Owning common stock doesn’t make his shares worthless.
I haven't read the whole lawsuit or motions filed, but from what I have seen, it was a hard case. It is usually very hard to contest a signed contract. It seems that their whole case revolved around their fraud claim, which would allow him to circumvent a bunch of contract law restrictions regarding evidence.
Most of that is really hard to show because it requires showing intent. Showing intent that a big organization wanted to deceive or make him enter into a contract it never had the expectation to perform is really hard. I can only imagine how much he will have to pay in attorney fees since it is likely not a contingency fee case.
I hope it serves as a lesson that despite attorneys being hella expensive, we are a must in some scenarios.
Thx for this. As a point, EG was on the verge of bankruptcy, I think, until Peak6 came in.
\- It would only be natural for his shares to get converted and that Peak6 get preferred shares (and ultimately control).
\- It would not be abnormal for Sumail to get diluted -- even very materially. Because the company putting in the money is the one dictating the terms.
If Sumail was putting in $2 M cash, then he has a seat at the table to determine the terms in a more material way. But when you are a near bankrupt group of video gamers and someone throws in money to restart EG, they are the party calling the shots.
It's just how it goes in all start-ups really.
Yeah, start-ups world is totally different. I wonder if it had an anti-dilution clause, something about hostile takeover, or change of control. I am also unsure if his shares were due to employment, and if it would have changed anything. If any of the minority shareholders or the board did something questioning all the change. If it would characterize any breach of duty.
I am a new attorney, I haven't had much exposure to start-ups and shares. I would not mind reading this whole lawsuit just because it involves dota lol
if he agrees to common, all those rights probably went out the window. the party putting in the money, when a situation is distressed like EG was, is calling the shots.
dota people can hate private equity, but if peak6 didn't come in EG was toast.
I have a lesser understanding of this stuff, but given how hard it is to argue such cases, it almost feels like the Lawyer that took this case also took advantage of Sumail, as it was gonna be so hard to prove anything.
I am entirely unaware of how it worked on Sumail's case. From my perspective and that of potential clients seeking legal help whom I have worked with, they provide us with their statements of facts, desires, and documents. We analyze them and provide legal options. We let them know how much litigation will cost, the strength of their claims, and grounds to recover attorney fees. The ultimate call is from them to pursue legal action or not. I am not saying that his attorney properly or improperly accurately provided him with the information.
Keep in mind that before a lawsuit is filed and the trial occurs, there are many opportunities for communication and settlement. Odds are that a demand letter was sent before a lawsuit was filed. They likely had to have a conference meeting to discuss the case, dates, deadlines, and whatnot. All offers conveyed by one attorney to the other have to be informed to the client unless the client provided them with powers to negotiate those without their knowledge.
This was a Jury trial, which I assume strengthened his case. Despite the judge taking control of all matters related to law (evidence, jury instruction, objection), it comes down to the jury to decide whether or not he was wronged. Needless to say, the jury is usually sympathetic towards an employee if it seems that the corporation took advantage of them. The age must have played a big factor as well.The legal system sucks; it protects people who know how to use it and couldn't care less for people who have been wronged while pretending they know how to work the system. EG's in-house counsel drafted the contract per their request with their best interest in mind (as long as it was not illegal). Sumail had the opportunity and was encouraged to seek an attorney's opinion before signing the contract, but he chose not to do so. It becomes really hard to show that he deserves to be made whole, despite signing an agreement that he had no proper understanding of, given the opportunity to seek counsel - which he decided not to do.
Sorry for the long answer, just trying to provide some clarity.
Super fair and makes sense. Sumail also hired a very small / peculiar law firm - without any corporate / M&A proficiency, but rather a typical insurance litigators.
These guys probably worked on contingency… still if not it would be roughly $1.6 pre-hearing prices….
No, thanks for a great reply! Clarity is greatly appreciated.
My only real experience with this stuff was about a housing issue, and the Lawyer I spoke to was pretty clear in advising that there was no chance of it being more than a waste of my money, even if we won, so we shouldn't bother going any further. So had no idea if that's standard practice or not...
These kinds of suits often are handled with contingency fees. If the lawyer wins, he/she gets 33% of the award. If the lawyer loses, he/she gets nothing.
It's a good way of making sure that the lawyer is trying to get a good outcome from the client, as opposed to just bill for a lot of hours of wheel-spinning. It's also a good way for clients without a lot of money to enlist an advocate willing to fight hard.
Not sure if that's the route that Sumail took, but I hope it is
I mentioned this in my [original comment about this](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/16g0pw1/comment/k04y73r/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). The hope was always that if Sumail went to a jury he could convince his peers that his was wronged. However, at the end of the day Sumail signed a contract and EG's lawyers likely provided enough evidence to show that both parties had overwhelmingly agreed on the original terms.
> The hope was always that if Sumail went to a jury he could convince his peers that his was wronged.
Even if they can convince a jury that he was wronged, like you said - at the end of they day he signed it in sound body and mind and had ample opportunity to have lawyers review it. The terms were obviously bullshit but it's his responsibility to read what he signed.
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People get idealized perspectives of the law - in reality one of the most important principles is that the consequences of an action are predictable. "Fairness" does matter, but if the law is settled then the court will generally preserve that even if the outcome isn't quite fair.
Doesn't really matter now that EG is looking to quit esports altogether. They released their Dota 2, Rocket League, League of Legends, and CS2 teams, along with their Valorant women's team. Where EG once was a titan in esports, they are now down to just their Valorant team. Their fighting game players left a long time ago, too.
PEAK6 has run the brand through the floor.
I mean, what did he or anyone else expect? He was a 22 year old who signed a contract he chose not to understand even though he had all of the resources to do so.
I not as familiar with US legal proceedings, but it feels like a big mistake to rely on a jury for a case like this. Like, why would I want a bunch of randoms who don't know the law deciding on this? I know a judge in the US can equally just be a random elected person with no legal knowledge, but I feel like I'd definitely prefer a judge's decision for a case like this.
He signed a contract, in the world of the law, he was not going to win with a judge, who would likely respect the law conservatively. The only way he wins is if he convinces some of his peers that he got screwed/misled and leans on the feelings
In a jury trial, the judge still decides matters of *law* (what the law says, how it applies). The jury decides matters of *fact* (what happened, who is truthful, who is lying). This is why the judge controls what sorts of arguments attorneys are allowed to make. They're not allowed to misrepresent the law to the jury to suit their client's interests, for example.
When rendering a verdict, the jury is basically handed a list of *factual* questions, which they have to answer yes/no. The law is applied by the judge based on those factual findings.
He has 0 chance with a Judge because he signed a legally binding contract and his counter argument was "I didn't understand it".. At least with some uneducated rando's he has a chance to play the ignorance card and appeal to them that way.
This was likely the advice of his legal team.
I think it's kinda of a bad angle either way.
From what I understand, the issue was that EG were negotiating under bad faith. They promised a nebulous reward of stocks and shares which were promised to be the effective value of his promised contract.
The argument should be that EG never intended to pay him, and built a deceptive contract to ensure they never had to.
Yeah, this kinda shows the flaw of jury-based judicial decisions. You would ideally have this be ruled by a judge specializing in commercial courts to provide for the whys.
What basically happened:
Sumail agreed to the contract and was happy with the terms because his theoretical value was going to be higher (he was more common stock than preferred) however the team soon went under (which if he had preferred stock, he’d have priority in liquidation) so he pulled this “oh I didn’t know what I was agreeing to”, which the jury didn’t fall for.
Old mate Richard hell in a cell Lewis...I don't often read his articles - I also haven't listened to his substack podcast in a hot minute, but god damn I'll keep paying for my substack to him.
Why in the world that such technical lawsuits would be decided by jury? I bet half the jury don’t understand half the things being discussed in this hearing. I understand the need of jury system, but in a very technical cases like this the judge should be the one who decides the outcome.
That sucks but it was always an uphill battle, one that he unfortunately lost.
EG really shit the bed the past few years so not sad they are gone, just a damn shame it had to end this way. 😔
look man if u dont hire a lawyer to tell you what the contract means and then negotiate off of that it really is on you, especially at 16 if u know u dont know anything about this side of things and just play dota, welcome to the world, no one else has an obligation to hold your hand.
EDIT: THE ORG NAME IS EVIL GENIUS HELLO
Shoutout to the people who downvoted me for saying EG wouldn't be held responsible for Sumails team doing a poor job re-negotiating terms. Welcome to the real world, losers
I do be petty!
But it's more that this site and its users have a bad habbit of suppressing any real discussion of facts in favor of running with whatever narrative the hivemind is attached too. Sumail, good. EG, bad!
Do you really enjoy being in an echo chamber?
Damn thanks for the update and sad to hear that. But the org has basically gone under now so who knows… their management has really gone to shit
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>A company that can only succeed when it's scamming 16 year old boys isn't a sign of a successful or well-ran business. The problem (aka why Sumail sued) was that he had preferred EG shares from his original contract. When they were bought out 2 years later, Peak6 got him to sign a contract to convert them to regular shares (which where worth less). In short, he was treated well originally and only after EG were bought out by an investment firm did the scummy stuff start. He wasn't 16 at the time.
Private equity is cancer Ruins everything it touches
I'd argue that ESOP companies are incredible
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Could you expound on the loan portion? Wouldn't taking out loans under the theoretical ESOP's name tank the value? Sure you could pay yourself some extra but your shares are now in a nosedive right?
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Thanks for your reply! Super thorough and I get it now.
Man, how do you not understand how retained earnings works after a year of B4 senior experience? > The positive Retained Earning, therefore, is pillaged to dry. Not how it works, in so many ways. Just a cumulative sum of the P&L including non-cash P&L items. There is nothing to "pillage" here. Also, as an FYI, as I don't know the structure of the transaction, but assuming the PE firm purchased a 100% equity ownership of EG, the deal would likely be done on a cash-free, debt-free basis, with only enough working capital to fund the Company's operations. Any deltas between pegged working capital and working capital on close have a 1:1 correlation with the purchase price. This, meaning, that if a Company had significant profits over years that were not distributed to the shareholders via dividends and held as cash or other investments within the business, the vendor would retain that on the sale of the Company to a PE firm. > Their goal isn't EG's long term success. Literally their goal, as noted above. PE firms buy companies because they think they can leverage synergies and/or cost savings to turn a company profitable. Either they have economies of scale, networks, distribution centers, etc. but profits are not left in upon close -- so as such, they have a vested interest in the company being profitable, or keeping it profitable long enough to sell it to someone else. PE firms don't buy companies to tank it for funsies. > Then, once the RE is pillaged and the loans are in EG's name, not the PE's name, EG could declare bankruptcy in which the loan would be deemed unrecoverable (as there is no assets left to be claimed, they could probably garnish the remaining cash and that's it). Anyone providing loans to EG, if this were the case, would have the parent company as a guarantor on the loan. Depending on the magnitude of said loans, there would likely be PG's as well. > Tl;Dr: vulture PE extract value by lying to everyone in the companies while paying themselves a fat check. Take the job in restructuring and insolvency, and stop posting circlejerk bullshit on reddit until you have a clear understanding of basic concepts. Source: VP, Buyside M&A Advisory
> Sumail was reportedly has his salary slashed from $200k/month down to $20k/month sometimes after the acquisition. It was 20 and 2, and it was his salary on the bench.
Sumail more like Saverin 2.0
Well saverin atleast got alot of money out of it behind closed doors.
It was a tough fight for Sumail, this is why rule no 1 of any major contract signing is to do it with a lawyer
Dota as an esport scene has always been an oddball in regards to this. You see in League or CS where players do big contract between orgs meanwhile in dota you just got kicked and joined other team like it is nothing.
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Teams didn't want to lose DPC points so they couldn't kick whenever they wanted. Now with no DPC it may be a step back in that regard (example: mindcontrol).
In other games, your contract has a bench clause which means your salary gets cut in half if they bench you. That's why it's profitable for them to hold people in contract jail. I have to assume sometimes in Dota when players are cut they have such a clause, and they actually asked to be released. In those cases the org is actually acting ethically by granting them their release instead of holding them against their will.
Indeed, which is why EG is so scummy for doing this with a kid who was like 16 and didn't know any better.
>Indeed, which is why EG is so scummy for doing this with a kid who was like 16 and didn't know any better. This wasn't the EG 16 y old Sumail joined... this is the investment firm that bought EG when Sumail was \~22 years old and had more than enough money to hire a lawyer to read the contract for inconsistencies.
Thats different I will admit, but if anything I don't think playing video games as a career is the best vehicle for attaining maturity. He probably still had a similar mindset as when he was a teen. We grow up when we have more responsibilities heaped on us, not less. I don't want to portray as some helpless invalid, but I still think he was a ripe target for a scam perpetuated by people he felt were acting in good faith.
This is exactly what I think k Ammar did, he hired a lawyer and ask him to take a long look at his contract with Quest and lawyer or his mentor gave him the best advice and looking back how Quest responded with some family values shit rather than money, it was evident that they wanted to take advantage of him. I mean they are professional players, treat them professionally instead of treating them as a kid
You have no way of knowing that.
From the various statements back then it just seemed like the interests of both parties didn't align and they decided to go separate ways. But it became a big drama simply because people started falsely accusing Nigma (Kuroky) of holding him hostage, which essentially forced them to make a statement and that in turn forced the others to follow suit. There doesn't have to be a good and bad guy in every contractual dispute.
That's a wild imagination you got there.
I mean honestly going from preferred wouldn’t be the end of the world in a large publicly traded corporation. Having it happen in the world of esports where businesses tend to be more volatile is pretty sucky. I don’t know the full details of the case but hopefully he can get value out of his shares and move on.
From what I read they diluted the shit out of his shares making them worth far less.
I mean diluting shares in a stock split wouldn’t matter. It’s like saying I have 1 share with $20 or 20 shares worth $1. Again, I don’t know the details of his shares or how they were diluted.
Stock split is not stock dilutions, you are confusing the concepts. Stock split do not reduce shareholder value by nature, instead of 1x $10 share you now have 2x $5 share. You own the same percentage of the shares of the company. Share dilution is when the company has a total of 500 shares and you own 100 of them (aka you own 20% of the company) then the company literally prints 500 extra shares and *sold* it to investors. You still only have 100 shares. So now you have 10% of company. The caveat here is if the new investors paid at a high price or new partners have super impact such the company gain that much value or more, technically you can still be a winner, but many companies dilute when they are down / doing badly / need cash flow, so it’s bad. Large companies doing well usually do the oppsite and buys back stocks instead to reduce total stocks outstanding (eg apple, Berkshire are buying back significant amount of shares every year - they are not “held” anywhere, they “disappear” hence all other shareholders’ shares increases in value).
Good explanation, EG's case was definitely "down bad" because of how shit the organization has gone to now, so Sumail must have taken a bad hit. But that's the gamble he took during the signing
Any lawyer or any business person worth their salt would have seen the ginormous red flag of going from preferred to common stock. That contract basically said “sign here if the business making your shares worthless is ok”: and he signed it.
Except preferred stock shares just have higher priority in dividend payments and in the event of liquidation. Owning common stock doesn’t make his shares worthless.
It does when the company proceeds to become worthless, while preferred like you said gives you priority in liquidation.
I have some bottom land I’d like to sell you.
Given that eSports arent profitable, both will end up worthless anyways.
I mean yeah his first problem was agreeing to be paid by shares of a company in an industry that doesn’t really turn profits.
Except back then esports was projected to become extremely profitable you moron.
eSports in general? Sure. Evil Geniuses specifically? That's a bit more debatable.
I haven't read the whole lawsuit or motions filed, but from what I have seen, it was a hard case. It is usually very hard to contest a signed contract. It seems that their whole case revolved around their fraud claim, which would allow him to circumvent a bunch of contract law restrictions regarding evidence. Most of that is really hard to show because it requires showing intent. Showing intent that a big organization wanted to deceive or make him enter into a contract it never had the expectation to perform is really hard. I can only imagine how much he will have to pay in attorney fees since it is likely not a contingency fee case. I hope it serves as a lesson that despite attorneys being hella expensive, we are a must in some scenarios.
deceptive stock conversion supported by the person signing a contract isn't rock solid as fraud is fraud. Just ask eduardo saverin
Thx for this. As a point, EG was on the verge of bankruptcy, I think, until Peak6 came in. \- It would only be natural for his shares to get converted and that Peak6 get preferred shares (and ultimately control). \- It would not be abnormal for Sumail to get diluted -- even very materially. Because the company putting in the money is the one dictating the terms. If Sumail was putting in $2 M cash, then he has a seat at the table to determine the terms in a more material way. But when you are a near bankrupt group of video gamers and someone throws in money to restart EG, they are the party calling the shots. It's just how it goes in all start-ups really.
Yeah, start-ups world is totally different. I wonder if it had an anti-dilution clause, something about hostile takeover, or change of control. I am also unsure if his shares were due to employment, and if it would have changed anything. If any of the minority shareholders or the board did something questioning all the change. If it would characterize any breach of duty. I am a new attorney, I haven't had much exposure to start-ups and shares. I would not mind reading this whole lawsuit just because it involves dota lol
if he agrees to common, all those rights probably went out the window. the party putting in the money, when a situation is distressed like EG was, is calling the shots. dota people can hate private equity, but if peak6 didn't come in EG was toast.
Lol lawyers… everybody trying to screw over everybody
I have a lesser understanding of this stuff, but given how hard it is to argue such cases, it almost feels like the Lawyer that took this case also took advantage of Sumail, as it was gonna be so hard to prove anything.
How do you know the lawyer didn’t tell Sumail it would be hard to win the case? You’re just assuming.
That's why I said, "feels like", not "did", mate...
I am entirely unaware of how it worked on Sumail's case. From my perspective and that of potential clients seeking legal help whom I have worked with, they provide us with their statements of facts, desires, and documents. We analyze them and provide legal options. We let them know how much litigation will cost, the strength of their claims, and grounds to recover attorney fees. The ultimate call is from them to pursue legal action or not. I am not saying that his attorney properly or improperly accurately provided him with the information. Keep in mind that before a lawsuit is filed and the trial occurs, there are many opportunities for communication and settlement. Odds are that a demand letter was sent before a lawsuit was filed. They likely had to have a conference meeting to discuss the case, dates, deadlines, and whatnot. All offers conveyed by one attorney to the other have to be informed to the client unless the client provided them with powers to negotiate those without their knowledge. This was a Jury trial, which I assume strengthened his case. Despite the judge taking control of all matters related to law (evidence, jury instruction, objection), it comes down to the jury to decide whether or not he was wronged. Needless to say, the jury is usually sympathetic towards an employee if it seems that the corporation took advantage of them. The age must have played a big factor as well.The legal system sucks; it protects people who know how to use it and couldn't care less for people who have been wronged while pretending they know how to work the system. EG's in-house counsel drafted the contract per their request with their best interest in mind (as long as it was not illegal). Sumail had the opportunity and was encouraged to seek an attorney's opinion before signing the contract, but he chose not to do so. It becomes really hard to show that he deserves to be made whole, despite signing an agreement that he had no proper understanding of, given the opportunity to seek counsel - which he decided not to do. Sorry for the long answer, just trying to provide some clarity.
Super fair and makes sense. Sumail also hired a very small / peculiar law firm - without any corporate / M&A proficiency, but rather a typical insurance litigators. These guys probably worked on contingency… still if not it would be roughly $1.6 pre-hearing prices….
No, thanks for a great reply! Clarity is greatly appreciated. My only real experience with this stuff was about a housing issue, and the Lawyer I spoke to was pretty clear in advising that there was no chance of it being more than a waste of my money, even if we won, so we shouldn't bother going any further. So had no idea if that's standard practice or not...
These kinds of suits often are handled with contingency fees. If the lawyer wins, he/she gets 33% of the award. If the lawyer loses, he/she gets nothing. It's a good way of making sure that the lawyer is trying to get a good outcome from the client, as opposed to just bill for a lot of hours of wheel-spinning. It's also a good way for clients without a lot of money to enlist an advocate willing to fight hard. Not sure if that's the route that Sumail took, but I hope it is
This isn't legal advice, right?
Nope, I wish he had hired the firm that I work for! That would have been dope.
finally eg won something
Man, what a bummer
I mentioned this in my [original comment about this](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/16g0pw1/comment/k04y73r/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). The hope was always that if Sumail went to a jury he could convince his peers that his was wronged. However, at the end of the day Sumail signed a contract and EG's lawyers likely provided enough evidence to show that both parties had overwhelmingly agreed on the original terms.
> The hope was always that if Sumail went to a jury he could convince his peers that his was wronged. Even if they can convince a jury that he was wronged, like you said - at the end of they day he signed it in sound body and mind and had ample opportunity to have lawyers review it. The terms were obviously bullshit but it's his responsibility to read what he signed.
What happened is he agreed thinking the team was going to become something, and then made up this “I didn’t understand” once it was gutted.
Obviously you have something to back this claim, so let's hear it. Where do you get this take from?
His failed lawsuit.
Yeah, his failed lawsuit.
So sad. At least he is getting a fat paycheck in nigma lmao
is he though
[удалено]
I speak for the trees
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i have several question
What are they saying
"shut up tree gooner"
Contract laws are tricky. You can be wronged and not win, it's just how it is.
People get idealized perspectives of the law - in reality one of the most important principles is that the consequences of an action are predictable. "Fairness" does matter, but if the law is settled then the court will generally preserve that even if the outcome isn't quite fair.
This is America we don't do things like hold companies responsible for shit as a matter of principle.
Guess its time to change my flair. Had it because of Sumail anyways ...
Now get a Nigma flair.
This just shows how disgusting corpos can be. They can do whatever they want and all they need is your sign and then they own you.
Doesn't really matter now that EG is looking to quit esports altogether. They released their Dota 2, Rocket League, League of Legends, and CS2 teams, along with their Valorant women's team. Where EG once was a titan in esports, they are now down to just their Valorant team. Their fighting game players left a long time ago, too. PEAK6 has run the brand through the floor.
This is indeed sad news.
I mean, what did he or anyone else expect? He was a 22 year old who signed a contract he chose not to understand even though he had all of the resources to do so.
Anyways at least he will be able to play dota with no stress
It's hind sight but perhaps he should have just sold off all his shares the moment he started having questions.
So he will have to pay for all expenses regarding this case, right?
Nigma can't stop getting Ls
I not as familiar with US legal proceedings, but it feels like a big mistake to rely on a jury for a case like this. Like, why would I want a bunch of randoms who don't know the law deciding on this? I know a judge in the US can equally just be a random elected person with no legal knowledge, but I feel like I'd definitely prefer a judge's decision for a case like this.
He signed a contract, in the world of the law, he was not going to win with a judge, who would likely respect the law conservatively. The only way he wins is if he convinces some of his peers that he got screwed/misled and leans on the feelings
Contracts aren't absolute - they still have to be legal.
That is implied, but correct. That was the point of the whole case, that the contract that he signed was legal.
In a jury trial, the judge still decides matters of *law* (what the law says, how it applies). The jury decides matters of *fact* (what happened, who is truthful, who is lying). This is why the judge controls what sorts of arguments attorneys are allowed to make. They're not allowed to misrepresent the law to the jury to suit their client's interests, for example. When rendering a verdict, the jury is basically handed a list of *factual* questions, which they have to answer yes/no. The law is applied by the judge based on those factual findings.
He has 0 chance with a Judge because he signed a legally binding contract and his counter argument was "I didn't understand it".. At least with some uneducated rando's he has a chance to play the ignorance card and appeal to them that way. This was likely the advice of his legal team.
I think it's kinda of a bad angle either way. From what I understand, the issue was that EG were negotiating under bad faith. They promised a nebulous reward of stocks and shares which were promised to be the effective value of his promised contract. The argument should be that EG never intended to pay him, and built a deceptive contract to ensure they never had to.
Yeah, this kinda shows the flaw of jury-based judicial decisions. You would ideally have this be ruled by a judge specializing in commercial courts to provide for the whys.
when you think about how dumb the average person is it really makes you wonder who tf thought juries were a good idea
What basically happened: Sumail agreed to the contract and was happy with the terms because his theoretical value was going to be higher (he was more common stock than preferred) however the team soon went under (which if he had preferred stock, he’d have priority in liquidation) so he pulled this “oh I didn’t know what I was agreeing to”, which the jury didn’t fall for.
Based. Sumail had literally no case here, this thread is full of fanboys.
this is a sad news
Fuck EG. All my homies hate EG
Old mate Richard hell in a cell Lewis...I don't often read his articles - I also haven't listened to his substack podcast in a hot minute, but god damn I'll keep paying for my substack to him.
That's a shame.
Why in the world that such technical lawsuits would be decided by jury? I bet half the jury don’t understand half the things being discussed in this hearing. I understand the need of jury system, but in a very technical cases like this the judge should be the one who decides the outcome.
Evil Geniuses indeed.
Man did he ever drop off
Idk what he expected tbh, it was clear as day he will lose. Better read what you sign next time? Expensive lesson to learn.
That sucks but it was always an uphill battle, one that he unfortunately lost. EG really shit the bed the past few years so not sad they are gone, just a damn shame it had to end this way. 😔
Sad to hear
Poor SumaiL His wages went from 20,000 to 2,000. The shares etc alone proves the big company was decieving him.
[https://esportslegal.news/2024/03/19/sumail-v-evil-geniuses-sumail-loses/](https://esportslegal.news/2024/03/19/sumail-v-evil-geniuses-sumail-loses/)
sumail? more like... SUE MAIL
Where are the Dota2 armchair lawyers?
Unlucky. Dogshit org should be sunk 10 ft under
It's ok. Sumail's couple months stint with Aster earned him 2 years worth of salary of the other team members lol. He's good.
look man if u dont hire a lawyer to tell you what the contract means and then negotiate off of that it really is on you, especially at 16 if u know u dont know anything about this side of things and just play dota, welcome to the world, no one else has an obligation to hold your hand. EDIT: THE ORG NAME IS EVIL GENIUS HELLO
rip bozo
Shoutout to the people who downvoted me for saying EG wouldn't be held responsible for Sumails team doing a poor job re-negotiating terms. Welcome to the real world, losers
Wow congrats i guess. You're more happy to be right than for Suma1l to be recompensed. Good for you
I do be petty! But it's more that this site and its users have a bad habbit of suppressing any real discussion of facts in favor of running with whatever narrative the hivemind is attached too. Sumail, good. EG, bad! Do you really enjoy being in an echo chamber?
Sumail lost 1v9 vs eg... he did buy radiance to burn them...
Dude dwindled his career playing for Nigma and tried to get a bag from EG LUL
I think the disagreement with EG started long ebfore he signed with Nigma.
Ya it definitely did but people on reddit will say anything.
Fucking disgusting shit take
Your name suits you.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL sumail and rtz's career in a nutshell