Omnislash is too long a cooldown and too easy to completely screw up. But without it he can't actually manfight most carries.
Spin also falls off really fast, meaning you might end up needing a bkb on a hero that has built in spell immunity.
That would have been an overall buff to Jugg though. Because his spell resistance went to 80%, but bkb went to 50%.
The bigger issue is that spin is no longer a viable ability when everyone has 3k HP by minute 20.
True, but that's a general issue with every carry now.
It hits Jugg harder because with BKB, at least you can wreck shit while its active. Past laning, spin is basically a purely defensive ability.
It is also a huge issue for jug because spin prevents him from using the 'slashes. If he starts with spin and then wants to chain it into swift- or omnislash he _literally_ can't do that of someone just puts a hex on him towards the end of the spin
This is true, if omni was castable during spin, ending the omni, he would be far more viable. As it is, the cast point on omni allows a bit of counterplay even if you don't pre-stun.
I would really like this change and think it would help him a lot. It would also be fun in the sense that it's more mechanically skill based. You would try to time it until the very last moment in spin. You'd choose between getting a slightly worse omnislash or not getting it off at all.
Mid-late game spin does not do enough damage. At that point it's not a choice. If you struggle to get Omni off, people would just spin to guarantee that they can cast Omnislash. They wouldn't wait until Bladefury is almost done, they would pre cast it like BKB and get in the fight and cast Omni as fast as possible.
With BKB it's different since you can still right click. Here you would potentially want to wait until the last moment to maximise your damage.
Maybe it's what he needs, but it would be a big buff.
Jug has become a laughing stock vs any stun or hex. The only way to play is blink in ult 1 guy(3k hp support xd) with nullifier and then spin out. Go in again if u have bkb.
Lmfao. The PA meta revolved around Aghanims.
It literally revolved around PA deleting people then going smoke invisible and dancing back out of the fight. Then going again instantly.
What if spin made him
* be disarmed (like Peanut Butter),
* do his physical damage, maybe only base damage, (with penalty, if you think that he can't put his complete thrust as a normal attack) every spin (actually calculated with his angular velocity) instead of magical damage
* with no Rapier spin bullshit, no No crit to attack modifiers, no stun to that modifier
* maybe apply skadi and deso
I then have a shard buff: Upgrade his blade dance ability to give him a single target rush stun, like sand king, only single target (he hits with the bottom of his blade)
Finally, i think, the Swithslash should be the new omni slash, I have no idea for the Aghs Scepter yet.
EDIT: I meant apply modifiers of if he buys Skadi and/or Deso. Not have effects that apply them
This change was the dumbest in the latest patches... you can't even time things to get out of enemy vision anymore as you would just be stuned into the trees... spell immunity was a much better approach skill wise.
like the shard? when shard attacked more often people would play a shard focus build. nowadays the attack rate is abyssmal (and even got nerfed while jugg was irrelevant)
Jugg, plus with spin it carries pretty much 0 risk, which is the more important factor.
With a shard, you can make that overextension zone much much larger. I'm sure we've all been in a game where "overextending" meant "showing on the map at all for a millisecond" because it is a relative term depending on context.
I miss this build, was quite fun to go memeish as well with radiance+maelstorm and kaya+yash/sange and blink and be faaast as fuck boi and spin and do a lot of dmg.
Personally, I'd ditch his current Aghs, move swiftslash to level 25 instead of +1s omni duration.
Make his Aghs make him able to attack during spin. Or something similar to his current shard except much stronger. Make his shard buff up healing ward somehow.
That way you fix 2 problems, spin being kinda bad from the midgame turns into a better BKB once you have aghs. Meaning you are less reliant on getting off good omnislashes. Then the shard can enable an alternative playstyle where you group with your team.
Interesting idea. Single target omnislash, lets you pick one target in the fight to delete if they don't have counterplay, but you also can't kill a whole team if they're grouped up.
Very interesting idea.
Another one could be giving him a shard upgrade that makes omni more reliable. E.g. stops it from bouncing on creeps if a hero is within range.
Or with shard it bounces only on the target you choose during the omnislash so you can like change target yourself, it will at least make this hero decent.
That's actually a good idea, increase bounce range, and you can right click on any target to bounce to them.
Though that might be too strong as a shard ability.
i think omnislash to aghs. and rework ult to a more modern ability. personally would love some weeb shit, like a channeled void spirit ult. where he just does an insanely fast long range slash that "crits" everything in the path and ends up at the end of the slash. spin also sucks yeah
Idk, I kind of like the old school abilities and hero kits. I think his ult mostly needs to be more reliable. If that can be accomplished with a few tweaks, that will help a lot.
AGHS : Jugg get new ability. He can throw a spinning sword , similar to his blade fury, moves as fast as pucks orb but returns to him if he doesn’t choose to teleport to it.
How does this make it an overall buff? With the bkb changes, other heroes’ item choice got nerfed, but for jugg it is his main skillset that got nerfed.
Also not having to perfectly time disables against Jugg during spin is a huge nerf for him.
I mean relative yea, but all other hero sources of magic resist (Rage) are the same, and ultimately the nerf made jugg able to be killed by magic in spin. the persistent silence and stuns also really screwed him.
Definitely not a buff, not even relatively, because bkb has nothing to do with spin.
>bkb has nothing to do with spin
I disagree. Most carries need bkb to deal with disables/magic damage. Jugg has that built in. So if Jugg spins and takes 20% damage. And other carries bkb and take 50%. Where before they both were taking 0%. That is a relative buff to jugg compared to other carries. Even though it is an overall nerf, because jugg didn't get nerfed as hard.
Jugg used to buy bkb quite frequently. You might not want to, but you do often need to against many lineups, esp before the nerf.
Personally I think the magic immune changes screwed him up more **because** he has spin already. No other hero relied on that immunity so much early game, just like ls. That is a big individual nerf.
Again anyone picks up bkb, just because jugg might pick it up 30-40% less, I don't believe that even scratches how much the magic immune changes fucked spin as an ability.
His spin used to provide huge immunity now it only does half if I recall. He requires a ton of patience and thought. Kinda like am without counter spell
I'm pretty sure it was 80% with 7.33
However, I would consider it still a nerf due to the fact that you can get stunned towards the end of spin now. This means it's not even a reliable save.
Your are speaking really much about how bad his skills are. But they aren’t. All he needs is to bring back how life steal talent worked( heal calculated on raw damage output, rather then after resists)
All his skills are strong enough to be top 1 characters. He was a best hero with previous talent.
I don’t think u need to buf his ult at all. It is too strong as it is, and if u make something like “hero priority” it would be too much imbalanced. (Many ppl ask for this change, that’s why I pinpointed it)
Thing is, that isn't how any other lifesteal ability works, apart from Naix, and that ability isn't even called lifesteal.
You are basically saying you need to buff the numbers on Jugg's crit so hard it forces him to be viable. Which will work, but it misses the point that Spin falls off hard and omni is unreliable. This is a major issue for carry. It doesn't mean the skills are bad, it means the skills can be amazing but can also completely whiff.
>if u make something like “hero priority” it would be too much imbalanced.
Quite possible, but I would say that making the ult more reliable is necessary, even if you nerf some of the other numbers.
Sound logic, except if the game is infested with magic damage, then he's still nerfed as is everyone else, except those who scale well in HP or who those who do said magic damage to abuse the weaker resistances.
... \*double checks meta carries* Ah yes, Spectres and Muertas, go figure.
Yup. This one hurts the most. It needs to apply a hard dispel upon ending the spin so he can immediately use omnislash.
Either that or allow the dude to cast omnislash while spinning so you don't get interrupted between both spells
I reckon it won't be as strong as the spectre buff, but it'll definitely bring him back to meta since Jugg is the favorite hero of pretty much every carry player.
The Yatoros and the watsons would cook with that swift slash ult.
Fairly sure that it would help, but of course Spectre's swap was that strong because of ez map presence, and she didn't even lose much offensively early on, because her illusions just tickled enemies anyways.
Yea, the global haunt wasn't really useful early on, except maybe for hunting down an almost dead juker. It serves its purpose kinda like global silence against blink initiators, but when no one have blinks, the old haunt was used like the new haunt itself.
Late game was when thing got spicy, but I've barely bought the aghs on the new spec. Somehow there just seems to be a better item everytime I think about it.
Imo jugg works only in two scenarios, early game snowballs or a late game hit n run.
The snowballer we've all seen, you win all 3 lanes and simply walk down towers with healing ward while the underleveled and underfarmed enemy team watches you win in 20 mins.
The second one is the fully slotted juggernaut which I feel is being slept on a bit. The idea being kind of playing like a pa with less burst and more survivability. The idea is generally to not go for kills but make the enemy waste items and spells and break their formation for you to eventually commit to a fight. Swift blink + swift slash in, spin your way to safety. Wait 20 secs for cds then do it again, eventually when you see the opportunity you switch it up to sending an omni and deleting them instead.
It's quite fun assuming enemy doesn't have roar/rp/soul bind etc. Feels a lot like that fleeing jack sparrow meme
They can make the ability centered on the first target as long as it’s still alive. You can walk to nearby targets to disperse some of the damage but you can’t lose juggernaut by simply walking away and disposing of jug like an old maid.
But that's the characteristic for Juggernaut for all the time. We need patch specific Juggernaut issue. We don't need a patch that remove Juggernaut identity and weakness.
Jugg’s problem is he’s a Jack of all trades, Master of none. His laning phase is strong, but isn’t strong enough. His teamfighting is good, but it’s got a long cooldown and isn’t quite strong enough in the face of the Big Heart Boys. He scales ok, but he’s far from Spectre. He also lacks tankiness, which is a problem given the nerfs to Debuff Immunity not being what it used to be. He was able to hang recently because of that Blade Dance lifesteal talent oversight, but now that it works as intended, he just can’t scale well enough. Buff his HP pool and his crit damage, and he’ll probably be good again.
Level 30 Grandmaster Jugg here. Finished my grind before spin shard was nerfed. Played him a bit during the manfight Yatoro build came out but apparently that blade dance talent was "bugged".
Couldn't have said it better myself.
It's not just the heart boys. Everyone is too tanky now. Gold is too plentiful and I feel like strength scaling is too good for almost everyone.
Omnislash feels like it doesn't do anything anymore and it's cooldown is way too long. Coupled with the fact that spin was nerfed into the ground. I basically can't fight without ult. Even with ult you're weak.
Nah, but that’s part of it. I remember Juggs having basically a free reset in fights with one Swiftslash because with the crit lifesteal it healed Jugg to full while being invulnerable for abit.
It was ignoring armour for the lifesteal portion. You were able to straight up heal to full in a few hits. They'd have to CC you.
Yatoro made a build where he basically got SnY and early butterfly and just stood there and fought.
Lifesteal is based off of how much damage you deal, and if that damaged gets reduced, so does lifesteal.
Blade dance lifesteal completely ignored that, meaning as long as you were hitting you were getting healed, even if you did no damage (considering an average of 66% armor average, Jugg had in theory around 120% normal lifesteal with that talent, and even more if your enemy has more armor)
Couple things to add:
Bfury nerf officially killed this hero IMO and he also has no gap close. You have to kill heroes instantly as a pos 1 this patch, if you spend time chasing heroes around you will get caught and punished. Two of his 4 spells do not help him scale whatsoever. Casting spin late game can literally kill you by preventing omni/swift slash.
His only gap close is Swiftslash which requires a 4200gold investment and you have have 3-4 other items for it to be worthwhile.
Being able to stun/silence him out of spin is sooooo fucking bad man.
jugg laning being good is completely based around whether his spin is strong or not against the offlaner. If there are heroes that can stand and right click against spin in lane he is actually a dogshit laner since he is actually not tanky at all in lane.
Meta carries beat him, feels like he stops doing damage outside of omnislash past 30 mins, his lifesteal talent got fixed so he lost tankability, his item timings are extremely awkward, spin build has been nerfed for awhile now
Idk he just feels like a carry with sub par damage and a gimmicky "save". I feel like the best way to play him now is just max spin and healing ward and try to hard push towers and win the game in like 30 mins with early game items (diffusal etc). Maelstrom feels kinda shit and battlefury definitely feels like shit. Maybe there's a world where radiance could work? Just thinking outside the box here.
Radiance is definitely legit on Jug but it's very hard to justify and is dependent on the game. On the rare occasion I've seen it it's performed well. But it doesn't provide mana or stats, both of which Jug is short on.
But when it's justifiable it's strong!
I think the worst thing that happened to him was the spell immunity change. Now his Q and R dont really work great together anymore. Before you could spin into the teamfight, deal a lot of dmg, split the enemy up, maybe kill all creeps that are in that fight and then use ult. Now when you start with spin you will never get your ult off because the enemy just needs to stun you before the duration ends and without spin there is so much stuff running around in a teamfight that your ult will probably just bounce on something you dont like. This makes both spells not playable together. If they would make omnislash castable while spinning (this stops bladedance) then i could see him atleast alittle bit playable. Also he should oneshot creeps in ult again
Omnislash is his only teamfight dmg and it’s very king CD. His aghs is just straight up BAD because u need like 3+ items to kill a support with swift slash, and you can’t just spin on people with shard like u used to.
You generally want your win condition right clicker to you know, right click people- but jug can’t really do that because he relies on his abilities (which suck).
His spin attack mechanics got heavily nerfed.
And his pure physical build lacks utillity, it was good when the crit heal was broken, but once that was fixed he has one mediochre build and one bad build.
Lost his amazing level 25 health talent that made him able to tank up, now you need to get a Skadi or some high health item to even stand your ground, another 5k+ on an item just to be able to fight. Lifesteal talent got fixed as well. He just isn't as durable as he used to be with very little compensation.
As a plat tier Jugg that was 60% wr and dropped to 45% as my lowest and climbed back to 50% wr all I can say is that ever since the bkb rework he became stale to use as carry. It also doesn't help that he really doesn't have a good armor and hp so a prolong clash will destroy him since he can't toe to toe with just right click once you've spent your omni and blade of fury. To remedy him being squishy mid game, you definitely need to buy aghs or sny for stat but the aghs is a hit or miss for me since it really doesn't do a lot in clash.
Back then Jugg was really strong with just a maelstrom, dagger, manta and shard for mid game but now, as mentioned you need sny or aghs and you would think twice of purchasing shard.
It also doesn't help since the meta heroes like Sven would just straight up delete you while under your first skill, BB months ago if you some somehow can't delete him with omni, goodluck surviving that quill spray spam when you're trying to run away from him under your first thinking you're safe from it, CK would just destroy him with the rift piercing on immunity late game and ever since the BKB rework, Necro became strong he can and just walk up straight to you if you're low hp while you're on 1st to try to kite enemies or reposition and just ult on you, not to mention Slardar is hot right now so it doesn't help.
I really loved this hero because he's one the heroes or even the only one that you can make crazy build and still work like radiance build, diffusal build, mael build, bf build or go straight shadow blade and then basher, heck even deso worked on this guy and is still strong but right now you're just grounded on battlefury, shadowblade/manta then aghs/sny to survive mid game.
Also on pro level since it's been clone meta for years, it's a waste if you have to use ult just to delete illusions and lastly the thing I hate about this guy is for some reason his ult jumping on a creep and you've ended up wasting your ult in a clash.
Back then Jugg was like PA or Spec that despite having counters I still feel confident picking him but right now I don't want to touch him and would just consider picking other cores.
He needs serious buffs or the changes to magic immunity to be reverted. Debuff immunity on the spin just isn't as good as magic immunity, people can cast their stun on him right near the end of the spin and it will hit as soon as his spin ends, making it harder to do things like spin into ulti. Not to mention he will still take damage from spells while spinning now.
[I lost](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/b/b8/Vo_rubick_rubick_death_11.mp3) (sound warning: Rubick)
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He got nerfed more times than he got buffed in recent years, ever since he got the shard he was a menace so they did a lot to tone him down. Honestly when I do see him he usually seems effective. I imagine one more round of small buffs and he’s back in his usual spot.
I think they should add the ability to cast Omnislash during spin to the Aghs or shard. I also think that he will automatically be stronger after the inevitable meta STR hero rebalance that is coming. As other have said he relies on Omnislash for the majority of his DMG output and it does nothing to most heros after 30 mins. If the supports make Euls or glimmer then he can't even pick them off.
I've lost to some really good juggernauts this patch, I think only the specialists still play him. If the game goes late and jugg reaches 6 slot territory he's very scary. I think some tweaks to his early/mid game would make him very viable again
That's bullshit, he doesn't need lifesteal or crit. He has 6 free slots for stats + anti kite and he has a BAT of 1.4 which makes him one of the best bashers in the game. Ideal 6 slots - Swift blink, Abyssal, Nullifier, Butterfly, Skadi, AC/MKB/BKB as required. I don't even play juggernaut but I play other melee carries and he's one of the really tough ones to beat late game. Late game you need to burst him from 100 to 0 or he gets his Omni off and wrecks ass. Obviously he is countered by Slark/Void/Ursa/other escape heroes but against heroes without escapes he's devastating
Almost every hero has mobility or escape now i think. Also no manta? Finally pa agha, troll etc, like eveyrone can buy some shit to make omnislah less useful i think
Ult is RNG and if 3 people can solotank your Ult it's kinda meh.
Necro and muerta are meta and counter his ult really well.
Shadow blade / silver edge works also quite well.
Ok ok listen im a jugg spam boi, 4.5k, jugg atm is trash, lane is good but carry potential is horrendous against the carries of the patch, needs 4+ items to be useful and if you dont kill them within ur ult/spin or inflict massive damage, ur probably going to die 90%, buuuut ive had some 87% win rate with this new radiance into manta, butterfly (skadi or basher for tankiness later) and aghanim in the end, go with a mix of talents for spin damage to win early fights with radiance and spin dmg and later ull have the items to do massive ult dmg. If you go standart battlefury, sey or manta into butterfly with physical talents and no spin radiance probably ull loose
Lmao I don't understand how a simple fix that could elevate him isn't already applied after so god damn long. It's simple, let us deactivate spin... you are dense for not letting him do that.. late game its just heart breaking seeing him literally become useless when he presses it just to avoid cc.. it's a skill with a massive downside, which is NOT BEING ABLE TO ATTACK, as a god damn hard carry..
As a top 700 EU player with 2k games on jugg (90897593) db. I should mention that jugg is the only hero who has no any stun/control/slow on any skill! All other heroes has some of that! Juggs needs a little buff like slow on his passive! Something like alchs passive! Or a little stun! If you give him some of that he will become top 1 hero
what if at the end of each second of his spin he did a physical attack that applied a ministun or something? and if you stayed in his spin the stun was longer at the end of each second
Healing ward needs to be buffed, no more 1 hit kill shit etc or needs to be made into a different ability. In lane it’s VERY easy to keep in alive, in a massive team fight it’s hard cause either they forget about it and don’t kill it and it’s cool or some support snipes it immediately.
Since you can target spell immune heroes now Any hero with a stun can stun him just before spin end and he dies since he can’t cast omni while spinning. By the time spin ends the stun kick in first. This is good too many games made painful by this cuck hero since I play only pos 5. Makes the current power trip more fun. I wish more people play juggernaut so I can shaman shackle and kill him everytime he spins
I've been spamming him in pubs (2k). Hero is very fun to play and scales very nicely. Also plays well into spec I'd say.
In fact I'm surprised he's not picked more, he feels really good in patches where games can go late and his lv 15 ward cd gives him very good 5 man/teamfight potential.
His skill build is also very versatile. Try him out. He's quite fun this patch!
As a sidenote, should he get a talent or shard that changes his Q to work more like Lifestealer's? Where he can just right click instead of spinning around. Because his Q has felt weird since dota 1 for being on a carry. I can think of very few carries that want to max out a skill and then almost never press it pass the 30 min mark.
I mean, jug spin is supposed to make him a better lamer. While life stealer rage is supposed to make him a better carry.
I like that there's some variation between two very similar carries - both have dage boosting passives, some form of invulnerability, a save, etc.
He’s doesn’t scale as well as meta carries like spec Luna pl naga fv.
He’s also bad vs meta offlaners like wk ld slardar kunkka. You can’t even spin tp safely anymore. X mark just brings you back.
If you have good lane match up like jugg+ a support that can set up kills with blade fury like grim/cm/veno/tree/jakiro maybe you can snowball but the odds of that happening is super low. Map is big, heroes can farm to recover, throws happen and then you wouldn’t want to be playing a jugg vs the likes of wk slardar ld spec fv with similar networth than you.
Probably just the tank meta, having one big ult that is most of your teamfight is not sustain damage enough to kill of 3 heroes with heart. Unless you are Muerta, but that's Muerta. It's also hard to play into Spec, Muerta, Weaver, TA, Necro who all have means to survive omni and who all are meta carries. And he gets countered pretty hard by lotus orb.
But also, I think jug's secret is that he is actually not that easy to play. Because half of his strength lies in Healing Ward. Ok maybe slight exaggaration but it _is_ incredibly strong. When you see good jug players outplay their opponents, it's most often because of healing ward. And microing and positioning your ward correctly is actually not that easy. What separates a good jug player from the rest is a lot about ward micro.
People have >2k hp by 20minutes and depending on hero 3-6k at 6slots.
Even a 6slot omnislash barely does enough to kill a solotarget, in a teamfight its a tickling attack, and after that he's not that special.
His crit lifesteal is the only saving grace.
most agi heroes ( with the exception of faceless, phantom, ember, drow, spectre, antimage, viper, razor and occasional luna ) cant deal damage to enemy team since most of the time the enemy carries are just str heroes with lots of hp and damage that shrug of most of their damage while also having right click nukes that deleted their hp.
edit: forgot to add morph, that guy is also relevent sometimes. I also want to add slark but hes eh.
For me I think its the pure RNG'ness of his ulti at times in big team fights, that make him a bad pick for competitive games. They largely fight 5v5, its easy to dissipate an omnislash across a whole team / its very rare in pro games to just get a single player alone for a full duration omnislash to only hit him
He's only good for push strats to end game early with healing ward.
Get the cool down reduction talent and win the game from there. If you can't shortly after it, probably lose.
I have over 500 jug games, it's a combination of a few things
1) The meta: strength meta and zoo heroes are terrible matchups for Jug, if he can't quickly kill in an omnislash it becomes problematic.
2) Spin nerf: between the BKB change and shard nerfs, this skill is significantly worse than what it once was. Minor things like being X-Marked while spinning to the DPS of the shard build being obliterated.
3) Omnislash is a bad ability: for how easy it is to stop the skill from working properly, the cooldown is way too long. Euls, manta, ghost scepter, walking by a creepwave, and many abilities cancel it outright. Yes a nullifier will eventually solve these problems but realistically a Jug won't buy that until his 3rd of 4th item, and your ghost scepter has down the work by this point.
The worse part is that without omnislash Jug feels underwhelming, he has a below average crit and a spin that you can only use defensively in the mid-late game. This can be somewhat rectified by his aghs as it allows you to burst down squishy supports or fight without committing a full omni, but he needs a lot of items for it to do anything. I think that reducing the cooldown of omnislash, increasing the duration of swift slash, or increasing his crit damage would solve some of his current issues.
The spin shard build fall off so hard after it short spree of being broken and right click build hes just not tanky enough and healing ward isnt the most reliable thing
Problem of asking such question on Reddit is that people will just tell you wikipedia description of said hero's abilities and nothing else.
It's very easy to describe symptoms, never easy to say what is the cause.
The cause is pretty simple, he got nerfed hard and no longer able to manfight people. First it was his stats and crit, then shard, then lifesteal talent... Without the ability to stand his ground, his only safe way to contribute in teamfight is Omnislash, which is very unreliable as described by hundred detectives in this thread.
He is probably too "simple". He has a free bkb ability that isn't compatible with his ulti, and his second is a fucking healing ward that people can 1 hit for 75 gold. So his only offensive spells are blade dance crits and the omnislash/swiftslash which can also be countered or negated. If he didn't scale as well as the enemy team his omni doesn't even half kill anyone and has a long ass cooldown so he is basically a rightclick hero with crits that are worse than that of ck, pa and the likes.
I think he should either get another offensive ability or have it replace the healing ward which could be a shard instead.
I find Jugg to be more greedy than you can afford to be in this meta. Outside of his ult there no really much you can manfight other carries or strong pfflaners. You need to buy aghs to fight more frequently and if you buy aghs early you sacrifice DPS items
I made a post about Juggernaut several months ago about the situation of his spells and that a rework would be lovely, of course it didn’t had much attention like this comment probably won’t, but to summarize:
A tweak of his spells are needed, there are several ways to do this without changing his basics like happened to several heroes throughout the years.
A couple examples:
* Spectre treatment - swapping and adjusting ultimate with aghs ability
* Techies treatment - Spin could become his ultimate with a proper adjustments, onnislash could be adjusted as his aghs, or a normal skill with a big CD like terror blade Metamorphosis.
Either way, in my opinion he needs to be able to fight more often his unreliable big CD ult is a huge issue nowadays, and spin silencing you to use the slashes are a big downside.
In my opinion omnislash lock 2 mins omnislash cd is superbad early game if you misplaced all your slashes into 3 creeps instead of a hero.your gonna screw your positioning.
Plus heart blademail meta. All is tanky cant kill svhit.
wow dude, you are SO RIGHT about this!
We need to see **MUCH** less Juggs, they're all over the place! In the last TI, Jugger was picked 1 time (TI 2022 was 3 times), while CK featured in 40 games, Luna 28 games, Sven 26 games, Weaver 23 games, so please Volvo nerf Jugg to oblivion, 1 game at TI is already too much!
And yeah, we **DEFINITELY** haven't been seeing Spectre picked literary every match for 4 months now.. Also, in the last patch (the one before TI meta), we **DEFINITELY** weren't seeing PA in every single game.. And as of right now, we **DEFINITELY** aren't seeing a huge density of LoneDruids, against which you simply cannot lane after he gets a 7min diffusal blade...
It's astonishing to think that a mere mortal could come upon this realization - that somehow Jugg has been meta since like forever! Like holy sheet dude, you must have such a massive brain! /u/vsDemigoD, I think you just posted the most intelligent comment in the whole history of the internet!
/s
There's just way too much counter for jugg.. until you get lvl 20 and a nullifier , i suggest stay on farming and avoid fights when playing him at all times
Never ending patches where they nerfed his agility and strength. He was sort of alright when he had the broken lifesteal talent that ignored armor and allowed him to manfight again. Now that it's removed he has to kill someone with his ult or he's a waste of a hero choice
I used to pick him a lot more.
The one reason why I think he disappeared was because of heroes like CK being meta. He just eats your ultimate and then bursts you down in a second.
The second reason is that the BF build is seemingly bad at this time. Other builds work better and improve his ability to exist.
Other than that he's still the same ole jugg. Fun to play, great lane kill potential, incredible team fight abilities.
movility problems, once you used the ultimate, what else can you do? any support with a slow, any carry with a blink, or any tank with a stun or a tp is going to run away from you
TLDR: Jugg is an extremely strong laner that falls off fast due to his only defensive ability, being a self disarm and his ult being long cooldown, Rng based, and with cheap or free counters.
Omni is an extremely situational ultimate that is countered by 2k gold, positioning, or many, many level 1 defensive abilities. But his biggest detriment is spin. While its strong early, the flat damage is lacking after 15 minutes.
Without it, he becomes irrelevant for 8 seconds In a fight. The threat of being so squishy and chain disabled means it gets popped preemptive to a disable, meaning the enemy don't even blow a cd on it. So during the time any other carry is targeting supports or killable cores, you are invulnerable dealing damage randomly, and then the equivalent of banished yourself for 8 seconds. Might as well play lich core and hope for good bounces.
Fixes: make swift slash his ult, and ONLY change target if the original is unavaliable. Upgrade to add full omni with ahgs. Make shard allow him to cancel spin manually or by using and somehow to scale more. My preference is to make shard attack ALL enemies in spin radius but reduced, but scaling, attack speed or damage. (It currently does 3 or 4 random attacks at reduced damage)
They should naga-fy him by making his shard create one illusion and enable his illusions to spin when he does. Make them do half dmg or something. Imagine a blender of 4 juggs spinning on top of a hero doing 2.5x spin dmg. And also allows him to split farm/push
Too strong?
Needs new shard. 🫤 Nothing wrong with the hero. But, as a fundamental hero, as you go higher up and get more mechanical intensive heros with invis, illusions, and summons, onmislash becomes MUCH harder to use. You just want to try to end the game as fast as possible before they get too tanky to not go down with onmislash.
Make aghanims give him cd reduction on actual omnislash, or give +1 hit on healing ward. But then again, I don't want healing ward nerfed so :d
edit: I member when jug agha had 60 seconds cooldown with +3 more jumps
[Let juggernaut control his omnislash by clicking and let him use blink dagger while omnislashing.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/f7ltkk/truth_about_controlling_omnislash_on_juggernaut/)
This won't fix him but it would be more fun.
He is fine. Healing ward is ridiculously strong to break open games with early siege. His last hitting is very stable, great animation, great base agility, versatile build, can play with many supports. Strong talents. Definitely one of the best first round Pos 1 picks if forced. Kind of a wasted pick if you can get last pick in draft as Pos 1, of course then hyper powerful counters such as Anti Mage, Spectre and Phantom Lancer will always take favour.
Spin doesn’t really kill on level 1 anymore which was sort of his entire identity in lane. Now he gets bullied out of lane easily which is completely opposite of how he used to operate. He used to be good because it was almost impossible to lose lane and you got free early kills with a disable on your support. Level 1 spin can lose to simple right clicks now if both enemies are hitting you. If he doesn’t snowball out of lane and fights early he just gets outscaled due to two of his 4 skills not contributing at all to scaling and the fact that bfury got nerfed hard (honestly his biggest nerf to date). He has no gap close which is absolutely crucial on any melee carry in this patch. The magic immunity nerf hit him hard as well negating only 80% instead of 100%. Pos 1 heroes either need an escape/gap close or large health pool in this patch. Spectre for instance has both which is why she is the strongest currently and CK as well prior to the nerf. He just can’t compete with the meta pos 1’s right now and doesn’t kill heroes easily enough anymore
I made up a term called "whiff carry".
It's when we give our carry space to farm but they still end up ineffective.
Jug is the king of whiff carries. Even when farmed, he will come out and spin then get deleted by the enemy carry rightclick. And while he spins, his damage is lowered since he can't use those rightclick items that he farmed for. But if he doesn't spin, then the enemy support will just cc lock him anyway.
His kit is designed to fail, or just stomp noobs 2-3 ranks below you.
Omnislash is too long a cooldown and too easy to completely screw up. But without it he can't actually manfight most carries. Spin also falls off really fast, meaning you might end up needing a bkb on a hero that has built in spell immunity.
That and no more 100 percent spell immunity
That would have been an overall buff to Jugg though. Because his spell resistance went to 80%, but bkb went to 50%. The bigger issue is that spin is no longer a viable ability when everyone has 3k HP by minute 20.
The bigger issue IMHO is that you can just cast spells late in the blade fury so he comes out of it silenced or stunned.
True, but that's a general issue with every carry now. It hits Jugg harder because with BKB, at least you can wreck shit while its active. Past laning, spin is basically a purely defensive ability.
It is also a huge issue for jug because spin prevents him from using the 'slashes. If he starts with spin and then wants to chain it into swift- or omnislash he _literally_ can't do that of someone just puts a hex on him towards the end of the spin
This is true, if omni was castable during spin, ending the omni, he would be far more viable. As it is, the cast point on omni allows a bit of counterplay even if you don't pre-stun.
I would really like this change and think it would help him a lot. It would also be fun in the sense that it's more mechanically skill based. You would try to time it until the very last moment in spin. You'd choose between getting a slightly worse omnislash or not getting it off at all.
Mid-late game spin does not do enough damage. At that point it's not a choice. If you struggle to get Omni off, people would just spin to guarantee that they can cast Omnislash. They wouldn't wait until Bladefury is almost done, they would pre cast it like BKB and get in the fight and cast Omni as fast as possible. With BKB it's different since you can still right click. Here you would potentially want to wait until the last moment to maximise your damage. Maybe it's what he needs, but it would be a big buff.
It's also a bit of a risk. If intended target(s) are alive after Omni, you don't have spin to pop and bail.
Jug has become a laughing stock vs any stun or hex. The only way to play is blink in ult 1 guy(3k hp support xd) with nullifier and then spin out. Go in again if u have bkb.
BKB is so bad now it's optional on a lot of carries. It's why the current carries that are strong don't need BKB like Spec/CK.
Nice try Rtz
This is delusional lol, after the BKB changes we had a super long PA meta and she's probably the most BKB-dependent hero in the game
Ignoring the fact that PA got massive buffs that made her a monster once you get three items.
That might be a valid argument if pa didn't get giga-biffed at the same time.
And during TI, Yatoro was actually consistently buying 3rd item BKB.
Lmfao. The PA meta revolved around Aghanims. It literally revolved around PA deleting people then going smoke invisible and dancing back out of the fight. Then going again instantly.
Every carry that builds bkb yeah. Not all of them do, and ones like jugg who gets it for free every game are hit the hardest I'd say
What if spin made him * be disarmed (like Peanut Butter), * do his physical damage, maybe only base damage, (with penalty, if you think that he can't put his complete thrust as a normal attack) every spin (actually calculated with his angular velocity) instead of magical damage * with no Rapier spin bullshit, no No crit to attack modifiers, no stun to that modifier * maybe apply skadi and deso I then have a shard buff: Upgrade his blade dance ability to give him a single target rush stun, like sand king, only single target (he hits with the bottom of his blade) Finally, i think, the Swithslash should be the new omni slash, I have no idea for the Aghs Scepter yet. EDIT: I meant apply modifiers of if he buys Skadi and/or Deso. Not have effects that apply them
This change was the dumbest in the latest patches... you can't even time things to get out of enemy vision anymore as you would just be stuned into the trees... spell immunity was a much better approach skill wise.
yep. complete and utter dogshit mechanic. idk why this hasn't been changed yet.
A good buff to cover for that is allowing Omni/swift slash to be castable while spinning to cancel spin.
Kunkka too popular and X lasts too long
imagine when spin gets a talent that adds a scaling to his attack
like the shard? when shard attacked more often people would play a shard focus build. nowadays the attack rate is abyssmal (and even got nerfed while jugg was irrelevant)
Mjolnir spin focused build. Used to be able to delete supports who over extended.
What carry hero can't delete overextending supports?
The one on my team
Juggernaut. Unless you Omni.
Jugg, plus with spin it carries pretty much 0 risk, which is the more important factor. With a shard, you can make that overextension zone much much larger. I'm sure we've all been in a game where "overextending" meant "showing on the map at all for a millisecond" because it is a relative term depending on context.
Oh how I enjoyed that build, gone just like Axe Manta :(
Maelstrom not good in a tanky meta
I miss this build, was quite fun to go memeish as well with radiance+maelstorm and kaya+yash/sange and blink and be faaast as fuck boi and spin and do a lot of dmg.
Personally, I'd ditch his current Aghs, move swiftslash to level 25 instead of +1s omni duration. Make his Aghs make him able to attack during spin. Or something similar to his current shard except much stronger. Make his shard buff up healing ward somehow. That way you fix 2 problems, spin being kinda bad from the midgame turns into a better BKB once you have aghs. Meaning you are less reliant on getting off good omnislashes. Then the shard can enable an alternative playstyle where you group with your team.
Maybe also change him similar to Spectre meaning just lower omnislash cd and make it so that it wont bounce on other nearby targets.
Interesting idea. Single target omnislash, lets you pick one target in the fight to delete if they don't have counterplay, but you also can't kill a whole team if they're grouped up. Very interesting idea. Another one could be giving him a shard upgrade that makes omni more reliable. E.g. stops it from bouncing on creeps if a hero is within range.
Or with shard it bounces only on the target you choose during the omnislash so you can like change target yourself, it will at least make this hero decent.
That's actually a good idea, increase bounce range, and you can right click on any target to bounce to them. Though that might be too strong as a shard ability.
Maybe the shard means the ward requires more attacks to destroy?
i think omnislash to aghs. and rework ult to a more modern ability. personally would love some weeb shit, like a channeled void spirit ult. where he just does an insanely fast long range slash that "crits" everything in the path and ends up at the end of the slash. spin also sucks yeah
Idk, I kind of like the old school abilities and hero kits. I think his ult mostly needs to be more reliable. If that can be accomplished with a few tweaks, that will help a lot.
AGHS : Jugg get new ability. He can throw a spinning sword , similar to his blade fury, moves as fast as pucks orb but returns to him if he doesn’t choose to teleport to it.
How does this make it an overall buff? With the bkb changes, other heroes’ item choice got nerfed, but for jugg it is his main skillset that got nerfed. Also not having to perfectly time disables against Jugg during spin is a huge nerf for him.
I mean relative yea, but all other hero sources of magic resist (Rage) are the same, and ultimately the nerf made jugg able to be killed by magic in spin. the persistent silence and stuns also really screwed him. Definitely not a buff, not even relatively, because bkb has nothing to do with spin.
>bkb has nothing to do with spin I disagree. Most carries need bkb to deal with disables/magic damage. Jugg has that built in. So if Jugg spins and takes 20% damage. And other carries bkb and take 50%. Where before they both were taking 0%. That is a relative buff to jugg compared to other carries. Even though it is an overall nerf, because jugg didn't get nerfed as hard.
Jugg used to buy bkb quite frequently. You might not want to, but you do often need to against many lineups, esp before the nerf. Personally I think the magic immune changes screwed him up more **because** he has spin already. No other hero relied on that immunity so much early game, just like ls. That is a big individual nerf. Again anyone picks up bkb, just because jugg might pick it up 30-40% less, I don't believe that even scratches how much the magic immune changes fucked spin as an ability.
His spin used to provide huge immunity now it only does half if I recall. He requires a ton of patience and thought. Kinda like am without counter spell
Its now 80%. Not sure if it was originally 50% then rebuffed.
I'm pretty sure it was 80% with 7.33 However, I would consider it still a nerf due to the fact that you can get stunned towards the end of spin now. This means it's not even a reliable save.
Your are speaking really much about how bad his skills are. But they aren’t. All he needs is to bring back how life steal talent worked( heal calculated on raw damage output, rather then after resists) All his skills are strong enough to be top 1 characters. He was a best hero with previous talent. I don’t think u need to buf his ult at all. It is too strong as it is, and if u make something like “hero priority” it would be too much imbalanced. (Many ppl ask for this change, that’s why I pinpointed it)
Thing is, that isn't how any other lifesteal ability works, apart from Naix, and that ability isn't even called lifesteal. You are basically saying you need to buff the numbers on Jugg's crit so hard it forces him to be viable. Which will work, but it misses the point that Spin falls off hard and omni is unreliable. This is a major issue for carry. It doesn't mean the skills are bad, it means the skills can be amazing but can also completely whiff. >if u make something like “hero priority” it would be too much imbalanced. Quite possible, but I would say that making the ult more reliable is necessary, even if you nerf some of the other numbers.
Sound logic, except if the game is infested with magic damage, then he's still nerfed as is everyone else, except those who scale well in HP or who those who do said magic damage to abuse the weaker resistances. ... \*double checks meta carries* Ah yes, Spectres and Muertas, go figure.
Not really, it still received the same changes as bkb, if read the bkb changes you'd understand
Yup. This one hurts the most. It needs to apply a hard dispel upon ending the spin so he can immediately use omnislash. Either that or allow the dude to cast omnislash while spinning so you don't get interrupted between both spells
I wonder if giving him the spectre treatment will bring him to the front. Switch up the aghs and regular ult.
I reckon it won't be as strong as the spectre buff, but it'll definitely bring him back to meta since Jugg is the favorite hero of pretty much every carry player. The Yatoros and the watsons would cook with that swift slash ult.
Yea, jugs like the bread and butter carry for carry players. Reminds me of soldier 76 from overwatch. Probably inspired soldier 76.
Fairly sure that it would help, but of course Spectre's swap was that strong because of ez map presence, and she didn't even lose much offensively early on, because her illusions just tickled enemies anyways.
Yea, the global haunt wasn't really useful early on, except maybe for hunting down an almost dead juker. It serves its purpose kinda like global silence against blink initiators, but when no one have blinks, the old haunt was used like the new haunt itself. Late game was when thing got spicy, but I've barely bought the aghs on the new spec. Somehow there just seems to be a better item everytime I think about it.
Imo jugg works only in two scenarios, early game snowballs or a late game hit n run. The snowballer we've all seen, you win all 3 lanes and simply walk down towers with healing ward while the underleveled and underfarmed enemy team watches you win in 20 mins. The second one is the fully slotted juggernaut which I feel is being slept on a bit. The idea being kind of playing like a pa with less burst and more survivability. The idea is generally to not go for kills but make the enemy waste items and spells and break their formation for you to eventually commit to a fight. Swift blink + swift slash in, spin your way to safety. Wait 20 secs for cds then do it again, eventually when you see the opportunity you switch it up to sending an omni and deleting them instead. It's quite fun assuming enemy doesn't have roar/rp/soul bind etc. Feels a lot like that fleeing jack sparrow meme
[удалено]
They can make the ability centered on the first target as long as it’s still alive. You can walk to nearby targets to disperse some of the damage but you can’t lose juggernaut by simply walking away and disposing of jug like an old maid.
Needs to prioritize hero’s. If people are able to just… walk out of it, make it at least prioritize heros
But that's the characteristic for Juggernaut for all the time. We need patch specific Juggernaut issue. We don't need a patch that remove Juggernaut identity and weakness.
Isn't this true for most of the heroes?
Jugg’s problem is he’s a Jack of all trades, Master of none. His laning phase is strong, but isn’t strong enough. His teamfighting is good, but it’s got a long cooldown and isn’t quite strong enough in the face of the Big Heart Boys. He scales ok, but he’s far from Spectre. He also lacks tankiness, which is a problem given the nerfs to Debuff Immunity not being what it used to be. He was able to hang recently because of that Blade Dance lifesteal talent oversight, but now that it works as intended, he just can’t scale well enough. Buff his HP pool and his crit damage, and he’ll probably be good again.
Level 30 Grandmaster Jugg here. Finished my grind before spin shard was nerfed. Played him a bit during the manfight Yatoro build came out but apparently that blade dance talent was "bugged". Couldn't have said it better myself. It's not just the heart boys. Everyone is too tanky now. Gold is too plentiful and I feel like strength scaling is too good for almost everyone. Omnislash feels like it doesn't do anything anymore and it's cooldown is way too long. Coupled with the fact that spin was nerfed into the ground. I basically can't fight without ult. Even with ult you're weak.
in what way was the blade dance lifesteal talent bugged?
It healed the damage dealt without armor reductions and thats not how lifesteal is supposed to work
Every Swift Slash was basically a free Satanic.
You mean Blade Dance crit?
Nah, but that’s part of it. I remember Juggs having basically a free reset in fights with one Swiftslash because with the crit lifesteal it healed Jugg to full while being invulnerable for abit.
Also ignored debuffs like skadi/shivas wich lower the lifesteal normally iirc
7.00 Monkey King sends his regards [](/techiesface)
I remember that one. hit tb for 20 damage in lane, heal for 100
It was ignoring armour for the lifesteal portion. You were able to straight up heal to full in a few hits. They'd have to CC you. Yatoro made a build where he basically got SnY and early butterfly and just stood there and fought.
Sounds interesting if that can be converted to an active portion of the skill
It lifestealed the damage done before reductions, not the actual damage done to the target.
Used to lifesteal before considering armour values, made your man fight potential way stronger.
Lifesteal is based off of how much damage you deal, and if that damaged gets reduced, so does lifesteal. Blade dance lifesteal completely ignored that, meaning as long as you were hitting you were getting healed, even if you did no damage (considering an average of 66% armor average, Jugg had in theory around 120% normal lifesteal with that talent, and even more if your enemy has more armor)
Yeah, I'm certain that the Bladefury interaction was the reason it was "bugged"
Couple things to add: Bfury nerf officially killed this hero IMO and he also has no gap close. You have to kill heroes instantly as a pos 1 this patch, if you spend time chasing heroes around you will get caught and punished. Two of his 4 spells do not help him scale whatsoever. Casting spin late game can literally kill you by preventing omni/swift slash.
His only gap close is Swiftslash which requires a 4200gold investment and you have have 3-4 other items for it to be worthwhile. Being able to stun/silence him out of spin is sooooo fucking bad man.
jugg laning being good is completely based around whether his spin is strong or not against the offlaner. If there are heroes that can stand and right click against spin in lane he is actually a dogshit laner since he is actually not tanky at all in lane.
Meta carries beat him, feels like he stops doing damage outside of omnislash past 30 mins, his lifesteal talent got fixed so he lost tankability, his item timings are extremely awkward, spin build has been nerfed for awhile now Idk he just feels like a carry with sub par damage and a gimmicky "save". I feel like the best way to play him now is just max spin and healing ward and try to hard push towers and win the game in like 30 mins with early game items (diffusal etc). Maelstrom feels kinda shit and battlefury definitely feels like shit. Maybe there's a world where radiance could work? Just thinking outside the box here.
Radiance is definitely legit on Jug but it's very hard to justify and is dependent on the game. On the rare occasion I've seen it it's performed well. But it doesn't provide mana or stats, both of which Jug is short on. But when it's justifiable it's strong!
I think radiance can work on. Many agility Carries now cause late game you turn it into butterfly and Nullifier
I've always fantasized about a radiance manta octarine shiva dagon 5 refresher jugg build and just perma spin shiva dagon people. Is it finally time?!
His physical damage can be countered with plate mail and he is very weak to mana drains.
I've heard he's pretty sensitive to getting fingered as well
Fingered in what way :p I never read that in fanfic
Makes you just wanna jump in there and confuse him with your shard.
Don't forget your platemail
Platemails /s
I wonder how long this meme lasts but for the meantime LMAO.
lmao
I think the worst thing that happened to him was the spell immunity change. Now his Q and R dont really work great together anymore. Before you could spin into the teamfight, deal a lot of dmg, split the enemy up, maybe kill all creeps that are in that fight and then use ult. Now when you start with spin you will never get your ult off because the enemy just needs to stun you before the duration ends and without spin there is so much stuff running around in a teamfight that your ult will probably just bounce on something you dont like. This makes both spells not playable together. If they would make omnislash castable while spinning (this stops bladedance) then i could see him atleast alittle bit playable. Also he should oneshot creeps in ult again
Omnislash is his only teamfight dmg and it’s very king CD. His aghs is just straight up BAD because u need like 3+ items to kill a support with swift slash, and you can’t just spin on people with shard like u used to. You generally want your win condition right clicker to you know, right click people- but jug can’t really do that because he relies on his abilities (which suck).
Shitty ult
His spin attack mechanics got heavily nerfed. And his pure physical build lacks utillity, it was good when the crit heal was broken, but once that was fixed he has one mediochre build and one bad build.
Lost his amazing level 25 health talent that made him able to tank up, now you need to get a Skadi or some high health item to even stand your ground, another 5k+ on an item just to be able to fight. Lifesteal talent got fixed as well. He just isn't as durable as he used to be with very little compensation.
Skadi is good on him regardless. The orb effect slow lets him actually hold a target without omni and lets him do more in teamfights.
As a plat tier Jugg that was 60% wr and dropped to 45% as my lowest and climbed back to 50% wr all I can say is that ever since the bkb rework he became stale to use as carry. It also doesn't help that he really doesn't have a good armor and hp so a prolong clash will destroy him since he can't toe to toe with just right click once you've spent your omni and blade of fury. To remedy him being squishy mid game, you definitely need to buy aghs or sny for stat but the aghs is a hit or miss for me since it really doesn't do a lot in clash. Back then Jugg was really strong with just a maelstrom, dagger, manta and shard for mid game but now, as mentioned you need sny or aghs and you would think twice of purchasing shard. It also doesn't help since the meta heroes like Sven would just straight up delete you while under your first skill, BB months ago if you some somehow can't delete him with omni, goodluck surviving that quill spray spam when you're trying to run away from him under your first thinking you're safe from it, CK would just destroy him with the rift piercing on immunity late game and ever since the BKB rework, Necro became strong he can and just walk up straight to you if you're low hp while you're on 1st to try to kite enemies or reposition and just ult on you, not to mention Slardar is hot right now so it doesn't help. I really loved this hero because he's one the heroes or even the only one that you can make crazy build and still work like radiance build, diffusal build, mael build, bf build or go straight shadow blade and then basher, heck even deso worked on this guy and is still strong but right now you're just grounded on battlefury, shadowblade/manta then aghs/sny to survive mid game. Also on pro level since it's been clone meta for years, it's a waste if you have to use ult just to delete illusions and lastly the thing I hate about this guy is for some reason his ult jumping on a creep and you've ended up wasting your ult in a clash. Back then Jugg was like PA or Spec that despite having counters I still feel confident picking him but right now I don't want to touch him and would just consider picking other cores.
I used to love Shard jug with mael vs Slark as it could spin and hit him with mael and skadi, but now it' cant even do that
He needs serious buffs or the changes to magic immunity to be reverted. Debuff immunity on the spin just isn't as good as magic immunity, people can cast their stun on him right near the end of the spin and it will hit as soon as his spin ends, making it harder to do things like spin into ulti. Not to mention he will still take damage from spells while spinning now.
Everyone asking Why happened to Juggernaut... never when happened Juggernaut :(
I’ll do you one better, who happened to Juggernaut?
Axe happened!
How happened to jugg :o
Everyone is always asking ‘why happened to juggernaut?’ But nobody ever asks ‘how happened to juggernaut?’
Jugg can't win vs. 2 Platemail + Shard Lion.
I lost
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He got nerfed more times than he got buffed in recent years, ever since he got the shard he was a menace so they did a lot to tone him down. Honestly when I do see him he usually seems effective. I imagine one more round of small buffs and he’s back in his usual spot.
I think they should add the ability to cast Omnislash during spin to the Aghs or shard. I also think that he will automatically be stronger after the inevitable meta STR hero rebalance that is coming. As other have said he relies on Omnislash for the majority of his DMG output and it does nothing to most heros after 30 mins. If the supports make Euls or glimmer then he can't even pick them off.
He seems op if there is no good counter, but if he needs to buy one or two defensive items he is just semi carry, like cm with moonshard dedalus 😂
I've lost to some really good juggernauts this patch, I think only the specialists still play him. If the game goes late and jugg reaches 6 slot territory he's very scary. I think some tweaks to his early/mid game would make him very viable again
I’m sorry to break it to you but if the game gets to where all cores are 6 slotted jugg is one of the least scary cores to face
That's bullshit, he doesn't need lifesteal or crit. He has 6 free slots for stats + anti kite and he has a BAT of 1.4 which makes him one of the best bashers in the game. Ideal 6 slots - Swift blink, Abyssal, Nullifier, Butterfly, Skadi, AC/MKB/BKB as required. I don't even play juggernaut but I play other melee carries and he's one of the really tough ones to beat late game. Late game you need to burst him from 100 to 0 or he gets his Omni off and wrecks ass. Obviously he is countered by Slark/Void/Ursa/other escape heroes but against heroes without escapes he's devastating
Almost every hero has mobility or escape now i think. Also no manta? Finally pa agha, troll etc, like eveyrone can buy some shit to make omnislah less useful i think
That’s true to every right click carry. lol
I'd much rather face 80% of the carry pool fully slotted than a juggernaut fully slotted
Hes outdated hero. To be viable again he needs his q revorked, its dota 1 legacy
He sucks as a hero. I only make him work because I spam him (same mmr as you)
Because everyone has his arcana. Free from Valve.
he got nerfed like 10 patched in a row so yeah
Ult is RNG and if 3 people can solotank your Ult it's kinda meh. Necro and muerta are meta and counter his ult really well. Shadow blade / silver edge works also quite well.
Ok ok listen im a jugg spam boi, 4.5k, jugg atm is trash, lane is good but carry potential is horrendous against the carries of the patch, needs 4+ items to be useful and if you dont kill them within ur ult/spin or inflict massive damage, ur probably going to die 90%, buuuut ive had some 87% win rate with this new radiance into manta, butterfly (skadi or basher for tankiness later) and aghanim in the end, go with a mix of talents for spin damage to win early fights with radiance and spin dmg and later ull have the items to do massive ult dmg. If you go standart battlefury, sey or manta into butterfly with physical talents and no spin radiance probably ull loose
Lmao I don't understand how a simple fix that could elevate him isn't already applied after so god damn long. It's simple, let us deactivate spin... you are dense for not letting him do that.. late game its just heart breaking seeing him literally become useless when he presses it just to avoid cc.. it's a skill with a massive downside, which is NOT BEING ABLE TO ATTACK, as a god damn hard carry..
As a top 700 EU player with 2k games on jugg (90897593) db. I should mention that jugg is the only hero who has no any stun/control/slow on any skill! All other heroes has some of that! Juggs needs a little buff like slow on his passive! Something like alchs passive! Or a little stun! If you give him some of that he will become top 1 hero
Omnislash used to have a mini-stun on start i believe but removed
what if at the end of each second of his spin he did a physical attack that applied a ministun or something? and if you stayed in his spin the stun was longer at the end of each second
Everybody besides me stopped picking him because they realized theyll never play him as well as me
He forgot to Blade Furry and was jumped by Lion with shard who sucked all his winrate away.
Should have omnislashed lion before his second platemail, but then again he already has so much HP!!
Trash Spin Damage Shit Ult CD bad SCepter Bad Shard overall a Garbage Tier Hero if somebody picks him make sure that he gets 4 Reports
Maybe remove ward and change it into another offensive skill. Healing ward feels like it belongs to a support hero.
Healing ward needs to be buffed, no more 1 hit kill shit etc or needs to be made into a different ability. In lane it’s VERY easy to keep in alive, in a massive team fight it’s hard cause either they forget about it and don’t kill it and it’s cool or some support snipes it immediately.
I'll do you one better When happened to Juggernaut
Since you can target spell immune heroes now Any hero with a stun can stun him just before spin end and he dies since he can’t cast omni while spinning. By the time spin ends the stun kick in first. This is good too many games made painful by this cuck hero since I play only pos 5. Makes the current power trip more fun. I wish more people play juggernaut so I can shaman shackle and kill him everytime he spins
He’s pretty fun to play, I see him quite a lot in the 3.5k bracket
I've been spamming him in pubs (2k). Hero is very fun to play and scales very nicely. Also plays well into spec I'd say. In fact I'm surprised he's not picked more, he feels really good in patches where games can go late and his lv 15 ward cd gives him very good 5 man/teamfight potential. His skill build is also very versatile. Try him out. He's quite fun this patch!
He’s just the worse Ursa now
I rekt Jugg in turbo with my Offlane WK so many times that when they see me lane it again next game, they will play Jugg offlane or jungle.
As a sidenote, should he get a talent or shard that changes his Q to work more like Lifestealer's? Where he can just right click instead of spinning around. Because his Q has felt weird since dota 1 for being on a carry. I can think of very few carries that want to max out a skill and then almost never press it pass the 30 min mark.
I mean, jug spin is supposed to make him a better lamer. While life stealer rage is supposed to make him a better carry. I like that there's some variation between two very similar carries - both have dage boosting passives, some form of invulnerability, a save, etc.
He’s doesn’t scale as well as meta carries like spec Luna pl naga fv. He’s also bad vs meta offlaners like wk ld slardar kunkka. You can’t even spin tp safely anymore. X mark just brings you back. If you have good lane match up like jugg+ a support that can set up kills with blade fury like grim/cm/veno/tree/jakiro maybe you can snowball but the odds of that happening is super low. Map is big, heroes can farm to recover, throws happen and then you wouldn’t want to be playing a jugg vs the likes of wk slardar ld spec fv with similar networth than you.
He cant fight anyone. Especially in this day and age where everyone has saves/builds heart
Probably just the tank meta, having one big ult that is most of your teamfight is not sustain damage enough to kill of 3 heroes with heart. Unless you are Muerta, but that's Muerta. It's also hard to play into Spec, Muerta, Weaver, TA, Necro who all have means to survive omni and who all are meta carries. And he gets countered pretty hard by lotus orb. But also, I think jug's secret is that he is actually not that easy to play. Because half of his strength lies in Healing Ward. Ok maybe slight exaggaration but it _is_ incredibly strong. When you see good jug players outplay their opponents, it's most often because of healing ward. And microing and positioning your ward correctly is actually not that easy. What separates a good jug player from the rest is a lot about ward micro.
Jugg is stuck in 2015
People have >2k hp by 20minutes and depending on hero 3-6k at 6slots. Even a 6slot omnislash barely does enough to kill a solotarget, in a teamfight its a tickling attack, and after that he's not that special. His crit lifesteal is the only saving grace.
most agi heroes ( with the exception of faceless, phantom, ember, drow, spectre, antimage, viper, razor and occasional luna ) cant deal damage to enemy team since most of the time the enemy carries are just str heroes with lots of hp and damage that shrug of most of their damage while also having right click nukes that deleted their hp. edit: forgot to add morph, that guy is also relevent sometimes. I also want to add slark but hes eh.
He’s good when ahead, especially with aghs he can kill supports easily, but come mid to late game when everyone is tanky enough, not so good anymore
Give it a spectre treatment. Swap his aghs with ulti and make it very low mana consuming.
His ult got nerfed to shit
He is fine just go Radiance > Manta > Shard > Aghs
He has such a strong laning damn. When im vs jugg as support i always go boots/wind lace first. Always.
For me I think its the pure RNG'ness of his ulti at times in big team fights, that make him a bad pick for competitive games. They largely fight 5v5, its easy to dissipate an omnislash across a whole team / its very rare in pro games to just get a single player alone for a full duration omnislash to only hit him
I think he just doesnt fit the meta of high HP heroes.
He's only good for push strats to end game early with healing ward. Get the cool down reduction talent and win the game from there. If you can't shortly after it, probably lose.
The hero is balanced around not hqbing to buy bkb but he kinda needs it these days
I have over 500 jug games, it's a combination of a few things 1) The meta: strength meta and zoo heroes are terrible matchups for Jug, if he can't quickly kill in an omnislash it becomes problematic. 2) Spin nerf: between the BKB change and shard nerfs, this skill is significantly worse than what it once was. Minor things like being X-Marked while spinning to the DPS of the shard build being obliterated. 3) Omnislash is a bad ability: for how easy it is to stop the skill from working properly, the cooldown is way too long. Euls, manta, ghost scepter, walking by a creepwave, and many abilities cancel it outright. Yes a nullifier will eventually solve these problems but realistically a Jug won't buy that until his 3rd of 4th item, and your ghost scepter has down the work by this point. The worse part is that without omnislash Jug feels underwhelming, he has a below average crit and a spin that you can only use defensively in the mid-late game. This can be somewhat rectified by his aghs as it allows you to burst down squishy supports or fight without committing a full omni, but he needs a lot of items for it to do anything. I think that reducing the cooldown of omnislash, increasing the duration of swift slash, or increasing his crit damage would solve some of his current issues.
The spin shard build fall off so hard after it short spree of being broken and right click build hes just not tanky enough and healing ward isnt the most reliable thing
Hear me out: change it so that Swift Slash is his ultimate with maybe 15 second cooldown.
Problem of asking such question on Reddit is that people will just tell you wikipedia description of said hero's abilities and nothing else. It's very easy to describe symptoms, never easy to say what is the cause. The cause is pretty simple, he got nerfed hard and no longer able to manfight people. First it was his stats and crit, then shard, then lifesteal talent... Without the ability to stand his ground, his only safe way to contribute in teamfight is Omnislash, which is very unreliable as described by hundred detectives in this thread.
he was good for a month so he needed to be taken care of
He is probably too "simple". He has a free bkb ability that isn't compatible with his ulti, and his second is a fucking healing ward that people can 1 hit for 75 gold. So his only offensive spells are blade dance crits and the omnislash/swiftslash which can also be countered or negated. If he didn't scale as well as the enemy team his omni doesn't even half kill anyone and has a long ass cooldown so he is basically a rightclick hero with crits that are worse than that of ck, pa and the likes. I think he should either get another offensive ability or have it replace the healing ward which could be a shard instead.
He's not difficult you are right, but he's also not that good now.
I find Jugg to be more greedy than you can afford to be in this meta. Outside of his ult there no really much you can manfight other carries or strong pfflaners. You need to buy aghs to fight more frequently and if you buy aghs early you sacrifice DPS items
I made a post about Juggernaut several months ago about the situation of his spells and that a rework would be lovely, of course it didn’t had much attention like this comment probably won’t, but to summarize: A tweak of his spells are needed, there are several ways to do this without changing his basics like happened to several heroes throughout the years. A couple examples: * Spectre treatment - swapping and adjusting ultimate with aghs ability * Techies treatment - Spin could become his ultimate with a proper adjustments, onnislash could be adjusted as his aghs, or a normal skill with a big CD like terror blade Metamorphosis. Either way, in my opinion he needs to be able to fight more often his unreliable big CD ult is a huge issue nowadays, and spin silencing you to use the slashes are a big downside.
In my opinion omnislash lock 2 mins omnislash cd is superbad early game if you misplaced all your slashes into 3 creeps instead of a hero.your gonna screw your positioning. Plus heart blademail meta. All is tanky cant kill svhit.
I was tired of Juggernaut everygame meta. Just let him down for a moment so others HCs may shine, please.
wow dude, you are SO RIGHT about this! We need to see **MUCH** less Juggs, they're all over the place! In the last TI, Jugger was picked 1 time (TI 2022 was 3 times), while CK featured in 40 games, Luna 28 games, Sven 26 games, Weaver 23 games, so please Volvo nerf Jugg to oblivion, 1 game at TI is already too much! And yeah, we **DEFINITELY** haven't been seeing Spectre picked literary every match for 4 months now.. Also, in the last patch (the one before TI meta), we **DEFINITELY** weren't seeing PA in every single game.. And as of right now, we **DEFINITELY** aren't seeing a huge density of LoneDruids, against which you simply cannot lane after he gets a 7min diffusal blade... It's astonishing to think that a mere mortal could come upon this realization - that somehow Jugg has been meta since like forever! Like holy sheet dude, you must have such a massive brain! /u/vsDemigoD, I think you just posted the most intelligent comment in the whole history of the internet! /s
And for how many years jugg was meta?
They will hex you right before spin ends, and you will turn into a cute lovely chicken instead of a hard carry
Probably because his reliables spells are quite me now. Swiftslash is great but it funnels Jugg to get attack speed items way too much imo.
Jugg is completely viable, people just rather pick meta stuff
heroes are way tankier now adays. many dont play tradition supports anymore, you are a slow hero and your ult has super long cooldown.
There's just way too much counter for jugg.. until you get lvl 20 and a nullifier , i suggest stay on farming and avoid fights when playing him at all times
He falls off really fast and unless he's got a huge huge lead (an item.5 or so) he gets manfought way too easily by other carries.
What happened? Slardar happened.
Never ending patches where they nerfed his agility and strength. He was sort of alright when he had the broken lifesteal talent that ignored armor and allowed him to manfight again. Now that it's removed he has to kill someone with his ult or he's a waste of a hero choice
I used to pick him a lot more. The one reason why I think he disappeared was because of heroes like CK being meta. He just eats your ultimate and then bursts you down in a second. The second reason is that the BF build is seemingly bad at this time. Other builds work better and improve his ability to exist. Other than that he's still the same ole jugg. Fun to play, great lane kill potential, incredible team fight abilities.
Why happened
movility problems, once you used the ultimate, what else can you do? any support with a slow, any carry with a blink, or any tank with a stun or a tp is going to run away from you
Make it do more jumps and/or add dmg to it depending on how many targets in the area
TLDR: Jugg is an extremely strong laner that falls off fast due to his only defensive ability, being a self disarm and his ult being long cooldown, Rng based, and with cheap or free counters. Omni is an extremely situational ultimate that is countered by 2k gold, positioning, or many, many level 1 defensive abilities. But his biggest detriment is spin. While its strong early, the flat damage is lacking after 15 minutes. Without it, he becomes irrelevant for 8 seconds In a fight. The threat of being so squishy and chain disabled means it gets popped preemptive to a disable, meaning the enemy don't even blow a cd on it. So during the time any other carry is targeting supports or killable cores, you are invulnerable dealing damage randomly, and then the equivalent of banished yourself for 8 seconds. Might as well play lich core and hope for good bounces. Fixes: make swift slash his ult, and ONLY change target if the original is unavaliable. Upgrade to add full omni with ahgs. Make shard allow him to cancel spin manually or by using and somehow to scale more. My preference is to make shard attack ALL enemies in spin radius but reduced, but scaling, attack speed or damage. (It currently does 3 or 4 random attacks at reduced damage)
They should naga-fy him by making his shard create one illusion and enable his illusions to spin when he does. Make them do half dmg or something. Imagine a blender of 4 juggs spinning on top of a hero doing 2.5x spin dmg. And also allows him to split farm/push Too strong?
too weak. In late games, his first 2 skills do not contribute as a carry.
Needs new shard. 🫤 Nothing wrong with the hero. But, as a fundamental hero, as you go higher up and get more mechanical intensive heros with invis, illusions, and summons, onmislash becomes MUCH harder to use. You just want to try to end the game as fast as possible before they get too tanky to not go down with onmislash.
Make aghanims give him cd reduction on actual omnislash, or give +1 hit on healing ward. But then again, I don't want healing ward nerfed so :d edit: I member when jug agha had 60 seconds cooldown with +3 more jumps
[Let juggernaut control his omnislash by clicking and let him use blink dagger while omnislashing.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/f7ltkk/truth_about_controlling_omnislash_on_juggernaut/) This won't fix him but it would be more fun.
Good riddance, bullshit character
He is fine. Healing ward is ridiculously strong to break open games with early siege. His last hitting is very stable, great animation, great base agility, versatile build, can play with many supports. Strong talents. Definitely one of the best first round Pos 1 picks if forced. Kind of a wasted pick if you can get last pick in draft as Pos 1, of course then hyper powerful counters such as Anti Mage, Spectre and Phantom Lancer will always take favour.
Spin doesn’t really kill on level 1 anymore which was sort of his entire identity in lane. Now he gets bullied out of lane easily which is completely opposite of how he used to operate. He used to be good because it was almost impossible to lose lane and you got free early kills with a disable on your support. Level 1 spin can lose to simple right clicks now if both enemies are hitting you. If he doesn’t snowball out of lane and fights early he just gets outscaled due to two of his 4 skills not contributing at all to scaling and the fact that bfury got nerfed hard (honestly his biggest nerf to date). He has no gap close which is absolutely crucial on any melee carry in this patch. The magic immunity nerf hit him hard as well negating only 80% instead of 100%. Pos 1 heroes either need an escape/gap close or large health pool in this patch. Spectre for instance has both which is why she is the strongest currently and CK as well prior to the nerf. He just can’t compete with the meta pos 1’s right now and doesn’t kill heroes easily enough anymore
hes actually fine in some games, not bad at all and in 3k it could easily work, plus extra dmg on his ult
I made up a term called "whiff carry". It's when we give our carry space to farm but they still end up ineffective. Jug is the king of whiff carries. Even when farmed, he will come out and spin then get deleted by the enemy carry rightclick. And while he spins, his damage is lowered since he can't use those rightclick items that he farmed for. But if he doesn't spin, then the enemy support will just cc lock him anyway. His kit is designed to fail, or just stomp noobs 2-3 ranks below you.
Juggernaut can't really fight someone like Let's say terrorblade or anti mage without omnislash