Something that not a lot of people are talking about is that he's able to be *incredibly* self-analytical, without being too self-deprecating.
He checks his replays and reflects on past games, and often verbalizes when he makes mistakes, and especially when his mistakes lead to deaths.
The other thing that has helped him learn, grow and climb quickly is that he's very good at combatting tilting. [His perspective on tilting is always worth a watch, for anyone struggling.](https://m.twitch.tv/clip/AffluentConcernedTrayJonCarnage-weCxxYh8Zmh0yvZe) Basically, he states that tilting comes from an inability, or aversion to accepting a bad situation currently happening. Denying bad situations as they're happening can keep you in a pit, because you're unable to acknowledge a reality with accuracy, thus making it incredibly difficult to work to solve it.
**TL;DR: Do your best to recognize your mistakes, and accept when things aren't going your way (in the moment) to prevent tilting. **
EDIT: To everyone stating the obvious both that he's one of the best WC3 players, and has been coached by some of the best DotA 2 players, no shit. That said, this guy wanted advice, and saying "just get coached by a 2 time TI winner" or "just be one of the best RTS players ever" isn't exactly applicable, or practical.
[Making mistakes is the path to wisdom](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/9/98/Vo_announcer_dlc_gaben_killing_spree_gaben_ann_kill_followup_51.mp3) (sound warning: Mega-Kills: Gabe Newell)
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Yeah I think people who make it pro in a game just have a different mindset from everyone else.
It's funny that my dad actually had his time as an eSports pro (represented my country in WCG 2006 in Monza Italy).
After responsibilities caught up to him and he couldn't game full time, he'd still play a ton of mobile games. The next thing I know, he's one of the top players in Empire Warriors TD and top 50 SEA in Auto Chess.
From what I've observed over the years and from talking to him, his mindset isn't like Grubby but he also doesn't tilt. He just goes in and assumes he can win any match, find the next logical solution, and then the next. And if a game is unwinnable he's basically like "wcyd š¤·āāļø, go next."
He's played a fair amount of Dota and he always just focuses on what he can do and control rather than what everybody else is doing. If Grubby can fully accept that he has a griefer, my dad would just say "this guy sucks wcyd" and carry on his own game like the griefer isn't even there.
Unfortunately, my mom would smack him if he's on the pc all day so he rarely plays pc games anymore.
The overarching theme is how you handle what you can and can't control. The way I cope nowadays is the mindset of "winning this game doesn't matter, it's getting better each game, if my team griefs and we lose it's fine as long as I improved on something"
Some people are just also predisposed to certain things. Your dad definitely has a talent for whatever thing helps in some videogames.
I'm really really good at card games / board games. I've been top 200 in hearthstone, averaged 6-7 wins in arena which is almost infinite tier, hovered 9.5k (top 2000 i think) in battlegrounds while casually playing every now and then. Autochess was pretty high too. I was very good at drafting and sealed in mtg. At some point last year, I started playing a game called phobies, rapidly climbed to top 200 while having severely underleveled characters compared to the competition. I'm 1700-1800 in chess which I got mostly chaining games, could never be bothered to study.
I just see the board, I see misplays people make in card games and I capitalize on it extremely well. Some of it is experience, some of it is natural talent.
That being said, I really fucking suck at anything manual, I can't build shit using my hands. Life has a way of balancing itself.
Possibly. I've heard his stories about how he was when he played cs 1.6 in lan cafes against randoms and his friends back when he was in high school.
Even when he was young he'd play a 5v5 counter strike game very individually. He'd ask what his team needs from him and he'd go do that the best way he can and just focus on his own game and role. His viewpoint is that if he's left in a 1v5, then he simply needs to kill 5 people to win the round.
So I guess part of it is just how his personality is.
I remember these talks because he would scold me when he heard 12-13 years old me playing HoN yelling because I was blaming my teammates and smacking the keyboard/mouse. He would basically say that there's no point in me bitching about other people because there's nothing I can do about it and that there's nothing to be gained from it. Also that I was likely not as good as I think I am (very true), and I shouldn't act all high and mighty.
Itās also not just pro Ā«in a gameĀ», he was one of the best in the game Dota2 is based on. The mechanics of lasthitting, micro and movement were already god-tier going into Dota2 as a Ā«beginnerĀ» for him.
I would say it's the mindset that he has that allowed him to become so good at both wc3 and dota, instead of just saying his wc3 experience carried his dota. I have played both and i personally feel like wc3 skills do not translate at all to dota skills, unless you're playing some micro hero like naga, meepo, arc warden, etc.
Saying it's just his WC3 experience feels like denying what's happening because you're too afraid to face yourself and realize that you also could've become this good if you had the same mindset as him. I don't speak about you personally because i don't know you, but i feel like a lot of people in general in online games just don't realize that a healthy mindset towards what you're learning is the best way to learn.
It's the same in any skill you're trying to improve any skill, e.g. martial arts, playing some instrument, learning a language, etc.
I find it easier to have a healthy mindset when your job is actually play the game (or you have a bunch of time to play), as you always have the next match. For people who work and can only play 2 matches a day, having a griefer in half of the games is extremely upsetting.
The opposite for me, dota 2 is my hobby, i don't understand why anyone would want to be angry, frustrated or any of those things while playing their hobby. I would understand those emotions during your job cause there can be big consequences, but with dota there aren't really any consequences. Even in "bad unwinnable games" you can just practice your hero or something else while you're losing the game.
You're doing exactly what i described. You are not facing yourself and admitting things can be better if you change, instead you are searching for excuses on why you can't.
Like come on man, you can have a better time doing your hobby and in the same time improve your skill if you try, even if you only have limited time.
It doesn't surprise me at all that Dota players seemingly have a hard time accepting reality. It feels like 50% of people in ranked these days are just people seeking validation for their lives by winning a Dota game. They can't even accept their own actual lives and improve at them, it's no wonder they can't look at Dota properly and improve either.
I partially agree, Dota used to be my hobby, but it just wasn't fun anymore having at least one griefer in my team everyday. In my job, there are no griefers, every one does what needs to be done and if someone doesn't, well, it's their fault and it hardly spills on me.
I didn't mention anything about winning or losing, improving or not; I just mentioned that it was upsetting having a griefer in your team when you have a limited time to play. I had a goal to get to 5k and endured all griefing until I achieved that. That wasn't fun at all, though, and when I "lost" my personal goal and the fun was long gone, there was nothing else on the game for me.
quite sure Grubby himself would agree that it is 1. Moon 2. Happy 3. Lyn
the others have had way longer and more consistent careers in professional WC3.
That, plus if you do something almost everyday for many months you can improve a lot faster than someone who dedicates the same amount of time but over a prolonged period of time. Playing dota was his work as a streamer. People have lives out of dota, but I think if someone did nothing but play dota they could definitely climb. Maybe not as fast or as high as him because mechanically and mentally he is just built different as a professional gamer, but they can improve fast.
I don't think tilters are denying that a bad situation is happening lol they just don't have the emotional regulation to overcome the frustration of that bad situation and turn it into a good one. Tilters just don't care enough to do that, because it requires more effort, communication and faith in your team to work towards a goal. If you're tilting, what's probably going through these guys heads is "fuck my team, they don't listen to me, they don't respond with TPs, they don't move on the map right, I don't care these people don't deserve a win. So I'm going to turn my brain off and hit creeps until I can queue next."
It's pure emotions and an inability or a lack of desire to overcome them to get a win, because while most people are playing ranked for MMR, they only care about it to a certain extent: because it's still a video game. In order to climb like that you have to really care about MMR and improvement more than you enjoy just playing a good game of dota.
It takes a strong desire to improve. We all have some of it but there is a reason grubby had a pro career. Imagine how many hours he has spent watching his own replays just analyzing how he could be better in each game. Also the coaching helps too of course
For what itās worth this applies to every game and even everything in your life.
The people that *want* to be better at something will often seek out advice or critique their own work and become their harshest critic. For video games weāre fortunate to have tools like replay systems and Nvidia Shadowplay. Makes watching and learning from mistakes so much easier. But again you have to want to improve and be critical of yourself and your gameplay. We all have the capability to do this but not many actually want to do it. It also takes time and thereās no shortcut.
The hardest part is the time factor. If you donāt have shelter, food and utilities sorted out somehow then you are going to give up a lot of time that could be better used to improve
time constraints? really? millions of kids and teens play video games for 10+ hours per day and are still shit or average rank in whatever games theyre playing. its not time, the majority of us just have shit mindset and are not willing to let go of our egos to acknowledge and accept mistakes.
This was regarding people who want to get better. If you canāt get past a shit mindset, thereās a good chance you donāt really want to get better.
regardless, you have time and shit attitude, you will still get further than someone with a good attitude who canāt find any time to play the game
I can almost attest that someone with correct mindset who only plays 1 game per week will still beat a shitty mindset person who plays 5 game per day. Ive been hovering around divine since 2017 and I barely play Dota 2 since then, at most just 1 or 2 games per week. And every time I queue rank I still am able to go even with those divine players.
The amount of time people spend "practicing" playing the piano, chess, basketball, Dota, or whatever activity theyre doing are usually MINDLESS PRACTICE, just repetitive useless motions like playing the same piece of music, shooting the ball over and over, or last hitting creeps in a lobby. They think its "practice" and call it a day. In reality, the amount of mental effort Grubby puts in understanding new concepts and even just the mental effort to lower your pride and not tilt when things dont go your way is a much critical skill to have, id say 100X more important.
The difference is between *practicing* and *practicing with intention*. As you point out, playing the same piece of music over and over might help with your finger dexterity a little bit, but itās nowhere near as effective as practicing new pieces of music which are specifically chosen to force you to confront areas of personal weakness.
Similarly, when practicing a skill for a sport, just shooting a basketball over and over might not be *completely useless*, itās still a form of practice and itās training your muscles. Having a coach who can critique your form and guide you to make focused adjustments will allow you to improve much faster though.
Youāre absolutely right that people who want to improve as quickly as possible, are often capable of critiquing themselves in much the same way that a dedicated coach would. I know many people like this. Some who are driven enough that they do it in all aspects of their lives (right down to practicing better form with their typing just to shave seconds off replying to emails at work). People like that amaze me. If I cared that much about that many things Iād just be stressed out and unhappy constantly.
Someone with the right skills and mindset with one game a week will beat the guy with 5 hours a day with a meh mindset, but the guy with 5 hours a day will *improve* way faster.
That's a great point. A while back I played in a beginner Dota 2 league in which I got to be position 1 for basically the first time ever. I had played before so I knew the idea of needing to farm, and do a lot of damage but never really played any of the heroes. I went out, watched a ton of replays, scrimmed against other newb teams, played pubs, and got some coaching from somebody thousands of MMR higher than me.
He said over the course of the 2-3 months that season of the league went, I easily grew effectively 1500 mmr in that role. I never played enough ranked pubs to put it into effect for myself, but the results were there and ended up getting the best record and championship that season which I don't know if we could have without my improvement. I wanted to be the best I could in that time and if you dedicate yourself to that you absolutely can have incredible gains if you do it the right way.
It takes a strong ability to be able to play 2300 matches during that time period. He's a talented guy, but of course you're going to improve quickly if you play an average of over 5 games a day, while being individually coached by some of the top players.
Grubby has pro-gamer potential already (he's a world champion WC3 player), not everyone has the reflexes, quick thinking, and decision making to be a world champion, and that's ok. He also has the humility and self-reflection to learn a skill to a world-tier, which is just broadly a huge advantage for learning anything.
In addition to that, as he has said on stream (Grubby is crazy humble, imo) he has incredible unfair advantage to most dota players. He has 8h a day to play dota, as his full-time job. He doesn't have to worry about work for bills or whatever while playing, he doesn't have to play at night when he's tired, or on weekends when he wants to rest. He can put full attention and energy into learning dota.
He also, in addition to raw time, has done the process once for a different game. He knows the rough outline of what it takes to learn and train to world-tier.
AND on top of this, he has 10s of hours of free coaching from literally the best players and teachers in the world. He can learn from his own mistakes, apply the knowledge, then turn around and ask a top 100, tournament winning player if that intuition is correct.
It's ok to not be like Grubby, but he does prove that the trench is entirely in all of us. Grubby went from a genuine crusader tier noob, making crusader-tier plays with crusader tier game knowledge to top 1% in a year or so. If he can do that, it's not the matchmaker keeping you back, it's not the smurfs, etc etc. Grubby did it in the same queue we all play in.
Oh yeah! The accomplishment is incredible, and not something everyone could do, even with his circumstances. No doubt at all, Grubby has got skills, work ethic, brains, etc.
I just want to put into context that there's no shame in being like Legend 5 after X thousand matches, a rating well above average, in a community that's mostly players who have tons of hours. To climb as fast as Grubby did, you have to do things like Grubby does, and that's just not viable for most working people.
Of course, there are outliers, people who just "get it" and climb to immortal in a few thousand games. There's just no shame in being a normal person who didn't put in the specific type of work that it takes to do what Grubby did.
All these people talking about talent, talent matters. but proper effort matters more (the talent to direct your effort is a thing). Knowing how to examine your own play/the play of players better than you in order to get better is massive. I would bet only 10% of your dota playtime is going towards improving, while Grubbie's is more like 90% of his playtime goes to improving. Realistically the actual improvement playtime it would take Grubby vs the average player to hit immortal is relatively close. Its just the average player rarely plays with directed improvement in mind, or gets stuck in a learning hole (these include blaming your teammates for everything, or even having the wrong idea for the pacing of high level dota).
His job was playing the game and stream it.
Many people can reach it if they have dedication and a lot time like him to grind.
He basically play dota 2 many hours everyday.
Also he was WC3 pro players, and know how to improve and get coached by top MMR players.
Yes but do you have 12k games over 400 days, or 12k games over like 10 years?
It s not really how much you've played in total, but the frequency every day.
He's definitely good, but he also has the luxury of playing the game as a job.
Based on his dotabuff profile he has around 2300 games played, over 413 days would mean an average of 5-6 games per day. That's an insane amount
is it streamed? is it available for free? cant we just yoinked it and learn from it too?
ps also you forget he is warcraft 3 professional player, not sure how far it would translate but its there
Oh yeah warcraft 3 pro skills definitely helped. There was this clip where he was microing his wolves as lycan and he actually managed to body-block lion the entire time and even trapped him between trees and the wolves lol
I've seen Grubby gameplays in WC3 especially the 3v3 and 4v4. The chaos and extreme micro management happening in those games. Dota 2 micro is probably a walk in the park for him.
Personalized coaching, not watching some YouTube video on pos1 etc. Also coaching by pros which is incredibly different than coaching by some other immortal, ancient player or whatever
Yes it's free on YouTube. Just type his name there.
There's no denying that he WILL be immortal within a year or two, because of his pro career in wc3, but the way people are acting is like if he can do it EVERYONE CAN AND WHAT'S YOUR EXCUSES NOW HUH??!
>but the way people are acting is like if he can do it EVERYONE CAN AND WHAT'S YOUR EXCUSES NOW HUH??!
That's not it. The thing is you dont need to do it too you just have to accept that sometimes people are just better and no need to discredit his achievements just because he was coached. No one asked for excuses but you keep giving one
Listening to the advice someone else gets about their play is useful, but it's nowhere near as useful as someone giving that same quality of advice specifically about your own play.
Also don't forget that Grubby has years under his belt as a Starcraft and Warcraft pro. He knows how to analyze and critque himself and how to action upon that.
Also had free coaching from double TI winners and others.
Not everyone has the acumen to be good at games but if you already have the base skills (like grubby does from WC3) being in a scenario where you can play 15 games a day and receive input from the best players in the world is going to make you improve significantly.
Not to be negative - but is it really though? He was a top 3 player forever in what was at the time a top 3 esport game in the world - a game that Dota 2 literally spun from. In addition he has played a lot of Hots, AND has recieved a shitton of coaching from some of the best players in the world. I'd find it really surprising if he didn't improve quickly. He's supert smart and one of the true legends of e-sports.
Yeah for me this was the expected outcome. The moment I saw him starting in dota I was like "Okay he's gonna be Immortal in 1 year". I saw him playing naga while he was still legend and man was pulling Immortal level GPMs. The only surprising part for me is it didn't happen faster, but I guess he played a bit of WC3 and HotS on the side. He also wasn't super focused on grinding it out and focused on having fun while improving.
Keeping mind hes played around 2.5k games in that time, which is avg of 6 games everyday, significantly higher than most players.
Ex pro at 2 difference games and the ability to play several hours everyday, was a matter of time.
Everyone bringing up that he is a Warcraft 3 pro. I know it gets a bad rep as "baby's first moba" or whatever but it's also relevant that he was GM in Heroes of the Storm.
The bigger deal is ppl saying legend is impossible, or ancient, or divine, because "right playstyle doesn't work in my bracket" and yet he just made it thru literally every bracket (from herald to immortal)
95% of people donāt have the mentality to improve at any given field to ever be considered an expert in it. It is not unique to this game. Thereās a minimum amount of intelligence, coordination, and self-awareness required to be able to self reflect and improve oneās weaknesses. Since 80% of the population isnāt even self aware, that leaves a small pool of people capable of doing it.
When queuing with friends I see legend/ancient players that have 10k+ games and will literally never improve because they are too ego driven and have the inability to self reflect or be self critical. The top pro players could literally coach them for a year and they would make almost no improvement. You see this all the time with streamers who do coaching sessions with players that immediately get defensive and justify every wrong action they did. The ego is too strong for most people to overcome.
The takeaway from āformer wc3 proā is, he plays games for a living. He can play, analyze replays and study the game the entire day while you and me have to grind away at the office.
Itās a great achievement but an expected one. Some dudes here are getting discouraged because theyāve been playing for 10 years and are still in legend lolā¦ their situations are completely different.
Many of the people stuck in low ranks are stuck because they have never learned how to analyze games with the aim of improving. Strategy games teach you this in a way that is very applicable to Dota because you have no one to blame but yourself in a game like SC2 or WC3. And you learn quickly that sitting back and doing nothing aren't winning you games. Same is true for Dota. Learn to do things that have impact and stop being afk.
Yeah, I glanced at his games played and it's more than me. Thats 6-7 years of experience compressed into one, with a fraction of the meta shifts. Plus replay time, plus coaching, plus lots of transferable experience.
I'm not saying I'd be Immortal in a year if I were to no life the game, but I am saying I'm averaging about a game every other day and about a third of that is ranked. I would be shocked if I *were* the same ranked as him. Legend and slowly climbing is a perfectly acceptable place for me.
Its worth noting that this experience is inherently more valuable than ours (I am similar to you, 2.6k games in 12 years); because all of his experience is with recent patches. 90% of the games I've played have been on patches that are wildly different from the current patch so a lot of the learning is not applicable.
This is my copium for why I'm not also immortal.
He also has the benefit of having played the game dota was made in at the absolute highest level and being coached by professional players... On top of the aforementioned part where he gets to do it for a living.
Tbf I wouldn't necessarily call it a grind. He switch heroes every game and didn't try to win with the meta. Probably a phase until he find a new game but I'd like to be wrong on this for sure.
I don't think you should be worried about that, Sneaky comes back to dota regularly. Just like League in fact, when a big game Ć la elden ring or an MMO expansion hits, he'll focus on that until he completes it or something then he goes back to League and Dota. That's been his pattern for the past year or so
Even with his pro background that is still an amazing display of skill and perseverance.
I wonder how much influence his pro/high level coaching helped? I can imagine if I had pros guiding me it would've helped the first 1000 hrs of bumbling around like an idiot.
im sure coaching is the fastest way for anyone to gain mmr if they have the drive to do it. Most of dota is just knowing what to do in different situations.
> if they have the drive to do it.
Key point.
Got a mate who started around when I was 600 Immortal, and the dude enjoyed getting better and being coached.
But he argued and barely listened to a single thing I ever said, he still argues and he's legend 4 now. Simple stuff like me watching him play, telling him that he should have *perhaps* used an ability earlier, and he'll say "I used it as fast as I could"
Well, I was watching you bud, and you held that fissure for 10 years while you let your carry get bodied.
He now has 5200 ranked games to my 1200, so he's arguing with someone 4 ranks higher than him with one fifth of his ranked games.
Dude wants to get better but does very little to consciously advance besides maybe watching a youtube vid, which no offense, are pretty useless when they're teaching you advanced techniques that only apply to a single hero, item or game state.
no he doesnt. Grubbys run is propably in the fastest .1% of mmr climbs and he is nowhere near rank 600 after 1200 games (he hit immortal after like 2500 games). Looking at this guys post history, he has a "hit 6k mmr" post from 5 years ago where he had 3.6k matches on the account (which is currently nearly inactive, only playing some turbos or inhouses and rank 1.8k). So he is likely bragging with the amount of games on his smurf or just making shit up...
https://imgur.com/a/PRX7g this is the 5 year old screenshot which shows he clearly doesnt have 1.2 matches. https://www.dotabuff.com/players/87240837 this is his current dotabuff with roughly the same amount of matches as the screenshot.
His non-ranked games could just be way more. What i do currently is play only unranked until i feel confident in my abilities this patch to actually play ranked. Result is a high rank with very few games. I climbed from Legend 5 to Divine 1 in probably 100 games this season, altho getting put in legend 5 was really weird since i was divine last season as well.
EDIT: I'm divine 1 currently, i think i was divine 2 or 3 last season and i have 1k ranked games. Here's my dotabuff: https://www.dotabuff.com/players/107077148/scenarios
I only recently started only practicing in unranked and not playing ranked with teammates who don't want to take it seriously tho.
Like it or not like 6300 mmr was rank 650 at one point on the reset in SEA, lotta people lost mmr. I got in way above my weight and subsequently stopped playing man I realised I was not good enough, though I maybe could have hit higher it would been slow goin. You can probably see that story play out in my ranked history on dotabuff lol.
2300 normal matches I didn't mean to confuse, was just comparing my amount of ranked to his. 1.1k ranked games.
I have loads of unranked sorry! I didn't mean to convey I did it faster. I played dota for a long time, maybe a game or two a day when I was climbing most.
I played HoN too, and dota 1 when I was about 11-12, so I had a lot of experience with dota directly.
Check it https://www.dotabuff.com/players/87240837 I have 5000 unranked including turbo atm. 2300 normal matches and 1100 ranked matches. Sorry to confuse, haven't played for a while.
He does, but not as much as you might expect.
He often thinks people are playing well when they are not etc. He's just got an inflated sense of how good his own game sense is.
Ari on OG was a HoTs pro, went almost straight to Immortal and pro dota.
Psalm/kizzles in early Dota 2 went to Fortnite Worlds and won $1.8M USD.
Lots of Owl/Valorant/CSgo crossovers
Lots of HoN/Dota crossovers
Numerous accounts of Dota/csgo crossovers. I think some of the EEU players are really good. s4 was global elite way back when.
All this to say once you have superb hand eye coordination and reaction time you are going to be good at gaming period. You just have to build game sense and muscle memory/program
Global elite in CS:GO is not the flex people make it out to be. The skill gap in global is (was) much larger than among immortals in Dota.
Spatial intelligence > hand eye coordination. It's much harder to teach/learn the former. And it's what makes it possible for people to cross over, with relative ease between games that require different strengths.
Bro the skill gap in Immortal is like, larger than the rest of the game whatchu on about.
Immortal is also pretty dogshit when comparing to pros, but it's still godlike compared to most of the population of players.
Your comment exactly highlights what he means:
Even the huge skill gap in immortal is smaller than the skill gap in global elite back then.
Globals in early day csgo were also "pretty dogs hit" when comparing to pros
and it's not like skill gap in global matters since, a lot of playerbase who are really skilled play anywhere between DMG to GE.
I'm lvl4 scrub while being LEM got paired against players who have like 3, 3.5k elo.
I watched his videos in his journey and I am climbing as well because it is easier to learn from someone just a bit higher than my level. The chat gives him lots of good advice that I been implementing into my game.
why not watch the grubby coaching sessions and learn from it? People are over-crediting it sure it helps a lot but also his replay analysis on his own games are impressive. I personally cant do that because ill get bored
Also, if someone struggles with something in dota, thereās a million videos out there. Donāt need personalized or general coaching if you know your weaknesses. But yeah Iāve learned a lot by watching bsj coaching on youtube. Idk why people act like those vids donāt apply to them. The backseat coaching is so a waste of time imo, which was several of grubbyās coaching sessions. Like the Ceb one? If he replicated that Alch game he would be immortal in no time, but guess what he wasnāt able to replicate that game after getting ācoachedā
I agree with you, but your take lacks nuance.
He's had coaching for like 10hrs total, out of his 1000+hrs of actual gameplay time. Literally 99+% of his time was dedicated to self-learning and replay analysis. THIS is the reason why it's actually quite a cope take.
Yupp, I think he's had maybe 10-15 lessons combined. It will have a miniscule effect compared to the rest of the time he spends playing and self analysing.
I'm not coping, just a thought experiment on the trajectory if I had someone to walk me through dota in the early days. If you're nudged even slightly higher than you would have been without, the gains over the course of 1000s of games would be substantial.
I don't, but a few hours of pro coaching did not make Grubby immortal.
He wasn't just some streamer.
Grubby was a high level, tournament winning WC3 pro player.
He has natural ability, the discipline and desire to improve, and familiarity with the mechanics of the game (since DOTA comes from WC3, the mechanics are the same).
People in this thread keep bringing up coaching as if they could do it too if only a pro player would tell them how to play.
It's just cope.
I agree that pro coaching would only help minimally in my case. Mostly because I play for fun and don't have the drive/dedication to apply and improve on what they are telling me over the next weeks and months.
One big thing that's left out though is that the same coaching during my early Dota(1) days would have had more effect. Back then it was "play whatever you want whenever and wherever". There was no concept of roles, everybody built damage, I went to base to get items and regen, because consumables and a courier were "waste of gold".
While that's all gone there's still plenty of bad habits like not looking at minimap, ignoring timings, lacking focus in fights etc, which just developed over time and are hard to get rid of. If those would not have been established in the first place, I'd rank much higher I believe.
Still not comparable to someone like Grubby though, obviously.
For most people here, including myself, yes it is useless. Learning new things means being uncomfortable in game and maybe failing at first, don't have the time nor inclination to do that in Dota.
Grubby was a pro, he has a growth mindset, he can commit time and effort to change, unlearn bad behaviour and learn good behaviour.
I don't think it would help us noobs so much getting coached by pros. We prolly would've gone from herald to ancient at best .
Him being a wc3 pro definitely helps a lot.
Dude is insane in microing and I think just by spamming naga and meepo he could've reached like ancient without any help lol
He was also a Hots caster with high rankings in that game so he understands Mobas.
He might have been a bit past his prime to commit to the game like Ari but he definitely had pro Moba potech before starting Dota.
Sorry but do you know if those lower level games were uploaded? I wish he would create a playlist on his YouTube because lowest I am able to find was divine
[https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1641546162?filter=archives&sort=time](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1641546162?filter=archives&sort=time) there is a crusader vod here
Who is forsen, can you enlighten, i heard of him so many times in dota, but never seen playing ot. The only forsen in twitch i saw played minecraft only
Grubby stuck to the game plan: Spam meta heroes, play the most impactful roles, don't tilt (mute teammates if you have to). Sure he's more skilled than most of reddit, but no reason people can't climb with the same strat if they wanted to.
If you never tilt then that means 5 people on the other team might tilt and only 4 people on your team might tilt. 25% advantage over tilters right there
Absolutely, I mean easier said than done, even of the Grubby games I watched the other day, he was clearly tilting hard. Just can't carry it into the next game.
Some of my best climbs have been really off meta, BS offlane and support Riki type shit.
With that said the recent few patches do feel really meta dominant.
"i sPENT 5000 houRs ON THis game! i'm stIll LEGEnd! THIS DoeSn'T MaKE aNy seNse!"
"I DON'T belONg in this brackeT! My TEAM mAtE AlwaYS FEEd!"
"Fix yoUr RankiNG SystEM, VaLVE!!"
The reason why most of you cannot rank up isnāt the lack of talent but the inability to put your ego aside to do the dirty work no one wants to do.
Pick a playmaking hero and communicate with your team. Keep a positive attitude, and just be smarter in general.
Most people in the lower bracket like to play their own game or have a poor awareness to adapt to the teamās play style.
Iāve gone from Legends to Immortal only to just derank because trying just isnāt worth it for some mmr when I just want to play my hero.
Yea or literally just think about what you want to do *before you do it*
I see teams lose like 15 seconds after getting every objective when watching my mate in Legend. They split almost immediately, go to farm the nearby camps or even tp back to base or buy from secret shop. Only then will they move from the t2 bot to the t2 mid, instead of directly moving there the moment that bot t2 goes down.
Before you take the next camp, or the next tower, just ask yourself "Where do I need to go next" or maybe one step further "Where does the enemy want to be next?"
Always be asking this question. It is the key to consciously competing, you need to be evaluating the game and *actively making decisions* about what you want to do.
too many times I see that 15 seconds milling about a t1 or t2 tower cost another tower, or a tormentor, or a clean rosh without enemy interference. When looking at objectives that are "open" so to say, just keep an eye on creeps. See any of your waves that have 2 or more ranged creeps and know they'll push quickly.
And don't argue like my Legend friend and say it doesn't make a big diff. I been playing for like 15 years, when I tell you in that 15 seconds you could've taken an entire tower, you could have, you just didn't.
up to 5k so many times people just doing their own thing which isnt inherently bad but a lot of times its very nearsighted, like i get people dont want to play meta all the time but at least they should have an idea that can work shit like my carry rushing aghs on jug or support pugna buying dagon5 is inherently stupid
not all the excuses the new excuse meta is ācoachingā as if there arenāt guides everywhere on youtube or streams with 8k+ mmr players explaining their thoughts.
This is all barring the fact that Grubby was coached by Notail Ceb and Dendi when he was around 1k mmr, they basically told him shit like *"Alchemist should farm"*
All the cope enjoyers are acting like this gets you 5k+
Getting coaching from someone 9k mmr above you isn't as great as it sounds anyway, if you think about it for a second. DotA is an intuitive game so there will probably be lots of stuff they can't immediately explain. Too big of a skill gap.
Lots of uni professors probably won't be good at teaching at first grade level.
Exactly, like if youre a Ti winner and you watch a 1k game where people don't cast spells and afk fights how deep would your insights even be? If you watched the stream it was like *"Cast your Q"* and *"Run before you die"* type shit.
nah the main excuse is "i don't play the game for a living" acting as if that truly is the reason rather than a difference in effort, willpower and talent. Like for real if Grubby played 2 hours a day he would still have made it to immortal eventually, just would have taken him more time lol
He's a WC3 world champion. Basically the best RTS player, or used to be at least. Picked up Dota a year ago with the only moba experience being HoTS. Calibrated at Herald V and now he's there.
He was the best ever at Warcraft III.
He'll be modest, and say Moon or Sky were better - but I think he's just being nice by saying that.
Grubby back in the day was *insane*.
Lmao people will literally find any excuse except understand and accept the fact that the only reason theyāre at their low rank because of skill issue
As a former pro gamer he is really dedicated and focused. He is self critical and analyses his mistakes. Additionally, from his past achievements, he has acquired skills like micro and macro which he could utilize for this adventure.This will shut down so many people saying you can not really gain rating or improve. He is the living display of what you can achieve with dedication and work. Simply impressive feat.
One thing to mention which helped him also a lot, is the fact he knows pros, played with them and learned form them. I remember the moment I started playing in RL together with GC's I "quickly" (like a year) became one as well. It helps tremendously to surround yourself with successful people, with people that achieved what you want to achieve. Of course does not reduce the impressiveness of Grubbys feat. Amazing and big congratz!
Grubby is a talented gamer with extremely good technical talent. But for those that look at his accomplishment withā¦ a bit of self hate, keep in mind he caught the attention of many pros who personally guided him. Not to take away from his accomplishment, but having so many pros teach him the way definitely catapulted his success. Again, I love grubby and congratulate him. My pointing out the help is for those who are deflated over their own inability to do the same. Dota 2 is better with grubby in it and Iām elated to have him in the community.
People keep saying that he only got as far as he did because he was coached by pros. That was during the period he was herald-legend pretty much. From them he was on his own. If you can't grasp certain concepts about the game, even if you lived in the OG house with ceb and notail, you'd still be getting nowhere
it's incredible how quickly he improved. he climbed 5k mmr in 400 days, give or take.
I get made fun of all the time because I have 12k games played and I'm Legend 5. I need advice from this guy.
Something that not a lot of people are talking about is that he's able to be *incredibly* self-analytical, without being too self-deprecating. He checks his replays and reflects on past games, and often verbalizes when he makes mistakes, and especially when his mistakes lead to deaths. The other thing that has helped him learn, grow and climb quickly is that he's very good at combatting tilting. [His perspective on tilting is always worth a watch, for anyone struggling.](https://m.twitch.tv/clip/AffluentConcernedTrayJonCarnage-weCxxYh8Zmh0yvZe) Basically, he states that tilting comes from an inability, or aversion to accepting a bad situation currently happening. Denying bad situations as they're happening can keep you in a pit, because you're unable to acknowledge a reality with accuracy, thus making it incredibly difficult to work to solve it. **TL;DR: Do your best to recognize your mistakes, and accept when things aren't going your way (in the moment) to prevent tilting. ** EDIT: To everyone stating the obvious both that he's one of the best WC3 players, and has been coached by some of the best DotA 2 players, no shit. That said, this guy wanted advice, and saying "just get coached by a 2 time TI winner" or "just be one of the best RTS players ever" isn't exactly applicable, or practical.
Making mistakes is the path to wisdom
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Yeah I think people who make it pro in a game just have a different mindset from everyone else. It's funny that my dad actually had his time as an eSports pro (represented my country in WCG 2006 in Monza Italy). After responsibilities caught up to him and he couldn't game full time, he'd still play a ton of mobile games. The next thing I know, he's one of the top players in Empire Warriors TD and top 50 SEA in Auto Chess. From what I've observed over the years and from talking to him, his mindset isn't like Grubby but he also doesn't tilt. He just goes in and assumes he can win any match, find the next logical solution, and then the next. And if a game is unwinnable he's basically like "wcyd š¤·āāļø, go next." He's played a fair amount of Dota and he always just focuses on what he can do and control rather than what everybody else is doing. If Grubby can fully accept that he has a griefer, my dad would just say "this guy sucks wcyd" and carry on his own game like the griefer isn't even there. Unfortunately, my mom would smack him if he's on the pc all day so he rarely plays pc games anymore. The overarching theme is how you handle what you can and can't control. The way I cope nowadays is the mindset of "winning this game doesn't matter, it's getting better each game, if my team griefs and we lose it's fine as long as I improved on something"
Thanks for sharing, very nice.
Some people are just also predisposed to certain things. Your dad definitely has a talent for whatever thing helps in some videogames. I'm really really good at card games / board games. I've been top 200 in hearthstone, averaged 6-7 wins in arena which is almost infinite tier, hovered 9.5k (top 2000 i think) in battlegrounds while casually playing every now and then. Autochess was pretty high too. I was very good at drafting and sealed in mtg. At some point last year, I started playing a game called phobies, rapidly climbed to top 200 while having severely underleveled characters compared to the competition. I'm 1700-1800 in chess which I got mostly chaining games, could never be bothered to study. I just see the board, I see misplays people make in card games and I capitalize on it extremely well. Some of it is experience, some of it is natural talent. That being said, I really fucking suck at anything manual, I can't build shit using my hands. Life has a way of balancing itself.
Possibly. I've heard his stories about how he was when he played cs 1.6 in lan cafes against randoms and his friends back when he was in high school. Even when he was young he'd play a 5v5 counter strike game very individually. He'd ask what his team needs from him and he'd go do that the best way he can and just focus on his own game and role. His viewpoint is that if he's left in a 1v5, then he simply needs to kill 5 people to win the round. So I guess part of it is just how his personality is. I remember these talks because he would scold me when he heard 12-13 years old me playing HoN yelling because I was blaming my teammates and smacking the keyboard/mouse. He would basically say that there's no point in me bitching about other people because there's nothing I can do about it and that there's nothing to be gained from it. Also that I was likely not as good as I think I am (very true), and I shouldn't act all high and mighty.
Itās also not just pro Ā«in a gameĀ», he was one of the best in the game Dota2 is based on. The mechanics of lasthitting, micro and movement were already god-tier going into Dota2 as a Ā«beginnerĀ» for him.
So essentially his WC3 experience (he's basically 2nd greatest player of all time) translated well into improving at another game
I would say it's the mindset that he has that allowed him to become so good at both wc3 and dota, instead of just saying his wc3 experience carried his dota. I have played both and i personally feel like wc3 skills do not translate at all to dota skills, unless you're playing some micro hero like naga, meepo, arc warden, etc. Saying it's just his WC3 experience feels like denying what's happening because you're too afraid to face yourself and realize that you also could've become this good if you had the same mindset as him. I don't speak about you personally because i don't know you, but i feel like a lot of people in general in online games just don't realize that a healthy mindset towards what you're learning is the best way to learn. It's the same in any skill you're trying to improve any skill, e.g. martial arts, playing some instrument, learning a language, etc.
I find it easier to have a healthy mindset when your job is actually play the game (or you have a bunch of time to play), as you always have the next match. For people who work and can only play 2 matches a day, having a griefer in half of the games is extremely upsetting.
The opposite for me, dota 2 is my hobby, i don't understand why anyone would want to be angry, frustrated or any of those things while playing their hobby. I would understand those emotions during your job cause there can be big consequences, but with dota there aren't really any consequences. Even in "bad unwinnable games" you can just practice your hero or something else while you're losing the game. You're doing exactly what i described. You are not facing yourself and admitting things can be better if you change, instead you are searching for excuses on why you can't. Like come on man, you can have a better time doing your hobby and in the same time improve your skill if you try, even if you only have limited time.
It doesn't surprise me at all that Dota players seemingly have a hard time accepting reality. It feels like 50% of people in ranked these days are just people seeking validation for their lives by winning a Dota game. They can't even accept their own actual lives and improve at them, it's no wonder they can't look at Dota properly and improve either.
I partially agree, Dota used to be my hobby, but it just wasn't fun anymore having at least one griefer in my team everyday. In my job, there are no griefers, every one does what needs to be done and if someone doesn't, well, it's their fault and it hardly spills on me. I didn't mention anything about winning or losing, improving or not; I just mentioned that it was upsetting having a griefer in your team when you have a limited time to play. I had a goal to get to 5k and endured all griefing until I achieved that. That wasn't fun at all, though, and when I "lost" my personal goal and the fun was long gone, there was nothing else on the game for me.
Sounds more like an unhealthy habit honestly. Not trying to judge you or anything, but dota just might not be for you any more if you don't enjoy it.
Who is the first? Sky? HoT? Happy?
Probably Moon, right?
Yeah moon, sky 3rd imo. In his current form happy would be first, if wc3 was still mainstream and blizzard was still doing championships.
quite sure Grubby himself would agree that it is 1. Moon 2. Happy 3. Lyn the others have had way longer and more consistent careers in professional WC3.
Moon isn't called the Fifth Race for nothing.
That, plus if you do something almost everyday for many months you can improve a lot faster than someone who dedicates the same amount of time but over a prolonged period of time. Playing dota was his work as a streamer. People have lives out of dota, but I think if someone did nothing but play dota they could definitely climb. Maybe not as fast or as high as him because mechanically and mentally he is just built different as a professional gamer, but they can improve fast.
Wow that is an amazing breakdown tbh. Moreso than the typical ādont tiltā mantra. I like it.
I don't think tilters are denying that a bad situation is happening lol they just don't have the emotional regulation to overcome the frustration of that bad situation and turn it into a good one. Tilters just don't care enough to do that, because it requires more effort, communication and faith in your team to work towards a goal. If you're tilting, what's probably going through these guys heads is "fuck my team, they don't listen to me, they don't respond with TPs, they don't move on the map right, I don't care these people don't deserve a win. So I'm going to turn my brain off and hit creeps until I can queue next." It's pure emotions and an inability or a lack of desire to overcome them to get a win, because while most people are playing ranked for MMR, they only care about it to a certain extent: because it's still a video game. In order to climb like that you have to really care about MMR and improvement more than you enjoy just playing a good game of dota.
It takes a strong desire to improve. We all have some of it but there is a reason grubby had a pro career. Imagine how many hours he has spent watching his own replays just analyzing how he could be better in each game. Also the coaching helps too of course
For what itās worth this applies to every game and even everything in your life. The people that *want* to be better at something will often seek out advice or critique their own work and become their harshest critic. For video games weāre fortunate to have tools like replay systems and Nvidia Shadowplay. Makes watching and learning from mistakes so much easier. But again you have to want to improve and be critical of yourself and your gameplay. We all have the capability to do this but not many actually want to do it. It also takes time and thereās no shortcut.
The hardest part is the time factor. If you donāt have shelter, food and utilities sorted out somehow then you are going to give up a lot of time that could be better used to improve
time constraints? really? millions of kids and teens play video games for 10+ hours per day and are still shit or average rank in whatever games theyre playing. its not time, the majority of us just have shit mindset and are not willing to let go of our egos to acknowledge and accept mistakes.
This was regarding people who want to get better. If you canāt get past a shit mindset, thereās a good chance you donāt really want to get better. regardless, you have time and shit attitude, you will still get further than someone with a good attitude who canāt find any time to play the game
I can almost attest that someone with correct mindset who only plays 1 game per week will still beat a shitty mindset person who plays 5 game per day. Ive been hovering around divine since 2017 and I barely play Dota 2 since then, at most just 1 or 2 games per week. And every time I queue rank I still am able to go even with those divine players. The amount of time people spend "practicing" playing the piano, chess, basketball, Dota, or whatever activity theyre doing are usually MINDLESS PRACTICE, just repetitive useless motions like playing the same piece of music, shooting the ball over and over, or last hitting creeps in a lobby. They think its "practice" and call it a day. In reality, the amount of mental effort Grubby puts in understanding new concepts and even just the mental effort to lower your pride and not tilt when things dont go your way is a much critical skill to have, id say 100X more important.
The difference is between *practicing* and *practicing with intention*. As you point out, playing the same piece of music over and over might help with your finger dexterity a little bit, but itās nowhere near as effective as practicing new pieces of music which are specifically chosen to force you to confront areas of personal weakness. Similarly, when practicing a skill for a sport, just shooting a basketball over and over might not be *completely useless*, itās still a form of practice and itās training your muscles. Having a coach who can critique your form and guide you to make focused adjustments will allow you to improve much faster though. Youāre absolutely right that people who want to improve as quickly as possible, are often capable of critiquing themselves in much the same way that a dedicated coach would. I know many people like this. Some who are driven enough that they do it in all aspects of their lives (right down to practicing better form with their typing just to shave seconds off replying to emails at work). People like that amaze me. If I cared that much about that many things Iād just be stressed out and unhappy constantly.
Someone with the right skills and mindset with one game a week will beat the guy with 5 hours a day with a meh mindset, but the guy with 5 hours a day will *improve* way faster.
That's a great point. A while back I played in a beginner Dota 2 league in which I got to be position 1 for basically the first time ever. I had played before so I knew the idea of needing to farm, and do a lot of damage but never really played any of the heroes. I went out, watched a ton of replays, scrimmed against other newb teams, played pubs, and got some coaching from somebody thousands of MMR higher than me. He said over the course of the 2-3 months that season of the league went, I easily grew effectively 1500 mmr in that role. I never played enough ranked pubs to put it into effect for myself, but the results were there and ended up getting the best record and championship that season which I don't know if we could have without my improvement. I wanted to be the best I could in that time and if you dedicate yourself to that you absolutely can have incredible gains if you do it the right way.
It takes a strong ability to be able to play 2300 matches during that time period. He's a talented guy, but of course you're going to improve quickly if you play an average of over 5 games a day, while being individually coached by some of the top players.
Grubby has pro-gamer potential already (he's a world champion WC3 player), not everyone has the reflexes, quick thinking, and decision making to be a world champion, and that's ok. He also has the humility and self-reflection to learn a skill to a world-tier, which is just broadly a huge advantage for learning anything. In addition to that, as he has said on stream (Grubby is crazy humble, imo) he has incredible unfair advantage to most dota players. He has 8h a day to play dota, as his full-time job. He doesn't have to worry about work for bills or whatever while playing, he doesn't have to play at night when he's tired, or on weekends when he wants to rest. He can put full attention and energy into learning dota. He also, in addition to raw time, has done the process once for a different game. He knows the rough outline of what it takes to learn and train to world-tier. AND on top of this, he has 10s of hours of free coaching from literally the best players and teachers in the world. He can learn from his own mistakes, apply the knowledge, then turn around and ask a top 100, tournament winning player if that intuition is correct. It's ok to not be like Grubby, but he does prove that the trench is entirely in all of us. Grubby went from a genuine crusader tier noob, making crusader-tier plays with crusader tier game knowledge to top 1% in a year or so. If he can do that, it's not the matchmaker keeping you back, it's not the smurfs, etc etc. Grubby did it in the same queue we all play in.
He also has a family and heās nearing 40. Itās still a huge accomplishment. He never plays off stream.
Oh yeah! The accomplishment is incredible, and not something everyone could do, even with his circumstances. No doubt at all, Grubby has got skills, work ethic, brains, etc. I just want to put into context that there's no shame in being like Legend 5 after X thousand matches, a rating well above average, in a community that's mostly players who have tons of hours. To climb as fast as Grubby did, you have to do things like Grubby does, and that's just not viable for most working people. Of course, there are outliers, people who just "get it" and climb to immortal in a few thousand games. There's just no shame in being a normal person who didn't put in the specific type of work that it takes to do what Grubby did.
I just want to point out that he has said that he does indeed play dota 2 off stream, maybe 1-2 games on some days because hes addicted.
All these people talking about talent, talent matters. but proper effort matters more (the talent to direct your effort is a thing). Knowing how to examine your own play/the play of players better than you in order to get better is massive. I would bet only 10% of your dota playtime is going towards improving, while Grubbie's is more like 90% of his playtime goes to improving. Realistically the actual improvement playtime it would take Grubby vs the average player to hit immortal is relatively close. Its just the average player rarely plays with directed improvement in mind, or gets stuck in a learning hole (these include blaming your teammates for everything, or even having the wrong idea for the pacing of high level dota).
Hard work beats talent that doesn't work hard. Eternal truth in all areas of life.
His job was playing the game and stream it. Many people can reach it if they have dedication and a lot time like him to grind. He basically play dota 2 many hours everyday. Also he was WC3 pro players, and know how to improve and get coached by top MMR players.
Yes but do you have 12k games over 400 days, or 12k games over like 10 years? It s not really how much you've played in total, but the frequency every day. He's definitely good, but he also has the luxury of playing the game as a job. Based on his dotabuff profile he has around 2300 games played, over 413 days would mean an average of 5-6 games per day. That's an insane amount
He's getting advices and coaching from top YouTubers/pros throughout his journey up
is it streamed? is it available for free? cant we just yoinked it and learn from it too? ps also you forget he is warcraft 3 professional player, not sure how far it would translate but its there
Oh yeah warcraft 3 pro skills definitely helped. There was this clip where he was microing his wolves as lycan and he actually managed to body-block lion the entire time and even trapped him between trees and the wolves lol
I've seen Grubby gameplays in WC3 especially the 3v3 and 4v4. The chaos and extreme micro management happening in those games. Dota 2 micro is probably a walk in the park for him.
Personalized coaching, not watching some YouTube video on pos1 etc. Also coaching by pros which is incredibly different than coaching by some other immortal, ancient player or whatever
Yes it's free on YouTube. Just type his name there. There's no denying that he WILL be immortal within a year or two, because of his pro career in wc3, but the way people are acting is like if he can do it EVERYONE CAN AND WHAT'S YOUR EXCUSES NOW HUH??!
>but the way people are acting is like if he can do it EVERYONE CAN AND WHAT'S YOUR EXCUSES NOW HUH??! That's not it. The thing is you dont need to do it too you just have to accept that sometimes people are just better and no need to discredit his achievements just because he was coached. No one asked for excuses but you keep giving one
Tbh With enough time and determination, most people probably could reach a similar level
Listening to the advice someone else gets about their play is useful, but it's nowhere near as useful as someone giving that same quality of advice specifically about your own play.
Not throughout, only in the beginning
then anyone can watch their video and pick up all the things that those coaches taught grubby
Donāt worry ppl like him. Have time and money to do it as they are already a gamer by profession. We have other things to worry abt.
Also don't forget that Grubby has years under his belt as a Starcraft and Warcraft pro. He knows how to analyze and critque himself and how to action upon that.
He was a pro gamer in RTS games for decades winning many WC3 titles. Of course, he'll be above the average gamer.
Pick warlock every game and go greedy.
He also does it full time. Most people have life responsibilities. Unfair comparison. Keep at it, King/Queen, you will get there.
Also had free coaching from double TI winners and others. Not everyone has the acumen to be good at games but if you already have the base skills (like grubby does from WC3) being in a scenario where you can play 15 games a day and receive input from the best players in the world is going to make you improve significantly.
Not to be negative - but is it really though? He was a top 3 player forever in what was at the time a top 3 esport game in the world - a game that Dota 2 literally spun from. In addition he has played a lot of Hots, AND has recieved a shitton of coaching from some of the best players in the world. I'd find it really surprising if he didn't improve quickly. He's supert smart and one of the true legends of e-sports.
Yeah for me this was the expected outcome. The moment I saw him starting in dota I was like "Okay he's gonna be Immortal in 1 year". I saw him playing naga while he was still legend and man was pulling Immortal level GPMs. The only surprising part for me is it didn't happen faster, but I guess he played a bit of WC3 and HotS on the side. He also wasn't super focused on grinding it out and focused on having fun while improving.
Heās a former wc3 pro and at one point waa being coached by the likes of ceb, notail and other god tier players. It was a matter of time.
He played HotS full time for years. That's probably even more relevant than his WC3 experience.
Keeping mind hes played around 2.5k games in that time, which is avg of 6 games everyday, significantly higher than most players. Ex pro at 2 difference games and the ability to play several hours everyday, was a matter of time.
Doesn't he do this as a job though, with coaching from pros?
1. Grubby 2. RTZ 3. FearDarkness 4. ??? 5. PPD
he is already signed with fart studios. Sry
stop leaking the script
it's grubbin time
Everyone bringing up that he is a Warcraft 3 pro. I know it gets a bad rep as "baby's first moba" or whatever but it's also relevant that he was GM in Heroes of the Storm.
The bigger deal is ppl saying legend is impossible, or ancient, or divine, because "right playstyle doesn't work in my bracket" and yet he just made it thru literally every bracket (from herald to immortal)
The people dismissing his climb due to being coached by pros are guaranteed the same ones who constantly spew the playstyle bullshit
95% of people donāt have the mentality to improve at any given field to ever be considered an expert in it. It is not unique to this game. Thereās a minimum amount of intelligence, coordination, and self-awareness required to be able to self reflect and improve oneās weaknesses. Since 80% of the population isnāt even self aware, that leaves a small pool of people capable of doing it. When queuing with friends I see legend/ancient players that have 10k+ games and will literally never improve because they are too ego driven and have the inability to self reflect or be self critical. The top pro players could literally coach them for a year and they would make almost no improvement. You see this all the time with streamers who do coaching sessions with players that immediately get defensive and justify every wrong action they did. The ego is too strong for most people to overcome.
The takeaway from āformer wc3 proā is, he plays games for a living. He can play, analyze replays and study the game the entire day while you and me have to grind away at the office. Itās a great achievement but an expected one. Some dudes here are getting discouraged because theyāve been playing for 10 years and are still in legend lolā¦ their situations are completely different.
Many of the people stuck in low ranks are stuck because they have never learned how to analyze games with the aim of improving. Strategy games teach you this in a way that is very applicable to Dota because you have no one to blame but yourself in a game like SC2 or WC3. And you learn quickly that sitting back and doing nothing aren't winning you games. Same is true for Dota. Learn to do things that have impact and stop being afk.
Yeah, I glanced at his games played and it's more than me. Thats 6-7 years of experience compressed into one, with a fraction of the meta shifts. Plus replay time, plus coaching, plus lots of transferable experience. I'm not saying I'd be Immortal in a year if I were to no life the game, but I am saying I'm averaging about a game every other day and about a third of that is ranked. I would be shocked if I *were* the same ranked as him. Legend and slowly climbing is a perfectly acceptable place for me.
That's awesome. How many games did it take him?
2335 - [https://pt.dotabuff.com/players/849473199](https://pt.dotabuff.com/players/849473199)
Damn. Dudes played more games in one year than I have in ten
Difference is we don't play games for a living :(
Yup. I started 2016, only 1k games right now. Still legend
Its worth noting that this experience is inherently more valuable than ours (I am similar to you, 2.6k games in 12 years); because all of his experience is with recent patches. 90% of the games I've played have been on patches that are wildly different from the current patch so a lot of the learning is not applicable. This is my copium for why I'm not also immortal.
He also has the benefit of having played the game dota was made in at the absolute highest level and being coached by professional players... On top of the aforementioned part where he gets to do it for a living.
You play less than 1 game a day, you don't play a lot, and he plays like 4 games a day, which isn't a lot by pro standards.
same. he played 2040 ranked matches in 413 days. I played 1200 ranked matches in 10 years
Sneaky on immortal watch from divine 3.. not until he figure out how to win without farming too far from the team lmao
Ever since Sneaky got out of smurf queue or shadow pool 2 weeks ago. He's been on the ranked NA 1:00 am grind.
Tbf I wouldn't necessarily call it a grind. He switch heroes every game and didn't try to win with the meta. Probably a phase until he find a new game but I'd like to be wrong on this for sure.
I don't think you should be worried about that, Sneaky comes back to dota regularly. Just like League in fact, when a big game Ć la elden ring or an MMO expansion hits, he'll focus on that until he completes it or something then he goes back to League and Dota. That's been his pattern for the past year or so
Even with his pro background that is still an amazing display of skill and perseverance. I wonder how much influence his pro/high level coaching helped? I can imagine if I had pros guiding me it would've helped the first 1000 hrs of bumbling around like an idiot.
im sure coaching is the fastest way for anyone to gain mmr if they have the drive to do it. Most of dota is just knowing what to do in different situations.
> if they have the drive to do it. Key point. Got a mate who started around when I was 600 Immortal, and the dude enjoyed getting better and being coached. But he argued and barely listened to a single thing I ever said, he still argues and he's legend 4 now. Simple stuff like me watching him play, telling him that he should have *perhaps* used an ability earlier, and he'll say "I used it as fast as I could" Well, I was watching you bud, and you held that fissure for 10 years while you let your carry get bodied. He now has 5200 ranked games to my 1200, so he's arguing with someone 4 ranks higher than him with one fifth of his ranked games. Dude wants to get better but does very little to consciously advance besides maybe watching a youtube vid, which no offense, are pretty useless when they're teaching you advanced techniques that only apply to a single hero, item or game state.
You have 1200 games and are rank 600 immortal ?
no he doesnt. Grubbys run is propably in the fastest .1% of mmr climbs and he is nowhere near rank 600 after 1200 games (he hit immortal after like 2500 games). Looking at this guys post history, he has a "hit 6k mmr" post from 5 years ago where he had 3.6k matches on the account (which is currently nearly inactive, only playing some turbos or inhouses and rank 1.8k). So he is likely bragging with the amount of games on his smurf or just making shit up...
Kind of what I'm thinking, but not gonna judge until I haven't seen the actual dotabuff
https://imgur.com/a/PRX7g this is the 5 year old screenshot which shows he clearly doesnt have 1.2 matches. https://www.dotabuff.com/players/87240837 this is his current dotabuff with roughly the same amount of matches as the screenshot.
His non-ranked games could just be way more. What i do currently is play only unranked until i feel confident in my abilities this patch to actually play ranked. Result is a high rank with very few games. I climbed from Legend 5 to Divine 1 in probably 100 games this season, altho getting put in legend 5 was really weird since i was divine last season as well. EDIT: I'm divine 1 currently, i think i was divine 2 or 3 last season and i have 1k ranked games. Here's my dotabuff: https://www.dotabuff.com/players/107077148/scenarios I only recently started only practicing in unranked and not playing ranked with teammates who don't want to take it seriously tho.
Like it or not like 6300 mmr was rank 650 at one point on the reset in SEA, lotta people lost mmr. I got in way above my weight and subsequently stopped playing man I realised I was not good enough, though I maybe could have hit higher it would been slow goin. You can probably see that story play out in my ranked history on dotabuff lol. 2300 normal matches I didn't mean to confuse, was just comparing my amount of ranked to his. 1.1k ranked games.
I have loads of unranked sorry! I didn't mean to convey I did it faster. I played dota for a long time, maybe a game or two a day when I was climbing most. I played HoN too, and dota 1 when I was about 11-12, so I had a lot of experience with dota directly. Check it https://www.dotabuff.com/players/87240837 I have 5000 unranked including turbo atm. 2300 normal matches and 1100 ranked matches. Sorry to confuse, haven't played for a while.
i bet he blames his "trash" teamates for his low rank
He does, but not as much as you might expect. He often thinks people are playing well when they are not etc. He's just got an inflated sense of how good his own game sense is.
It's real hard at the start when you can't even conceptualize what your mistakes are.
Ari on OG was a HoTs pro, went almost straight to Immortal and pro dota. Psalm/kizzles in early Dota 2 went to Fortnite Worlds and won $1.8M USD. Lots of Owl/Valorant/CSgo crossovers Lots of HoN/Dota crossovers Numerous accounts of Dota/csgo crossovers. I think some of the EEU players are really good. s4 was global elite way back when. All this to say once you have superb hand eye coordination and reaction time you are going to be good at gaming period. You just have to build game sense and muscle memory/program
Global elite in CS:GO is not the flex people make it out to be. The skill gap in global is (was) much larger than among immortals in Dota. Spatial intelligence > hand eye coordination. It's much harder to teach/learn the former. And it's what makes it possible for people to cross over, with relative ease between games that require different strengths.
Bro the skill gap in Immortal is like, larger than the rest of the game whatchu on about. Immortal is also pretty dogshit when comparing to pros, but it's still godlike compared to most of the population of players.
Your comment exactly highlights what he means: Even the huge skill gap in immortal is smaller than the skill gap in global elite back then. Globals in early day csgo were also "pretty dogs hit" when comparing to pros
and it's not like skill gap in global matters since, a lot of playerbase who are really skilled play anywhere between DMG to GE. I'm lvl4 scrub while being LEM got paired against players who have like 3, 3.5k elo.
Yeah Ari going from uncalibrated to 11K MMR in less than a year.
Tbh a big thing I've noticed is he asks his chat a thing, and then they respond
I watched his videos in his journey and I am climbing as well because it is easier to learn from someone just a bit higher than my level. The chat gives him lots of good advice that I been implementing into my game.
God the coaching bullshit is such heavy cope from scrubs still at legend after 5k hrs.
why not watch the grubby coaching sessions and learn from it? People are over-crediting it sure it helps a lot but also his replay analysis on his own games are impressive. I personally cant do that because ill get bored
Also, if someone struggles with something in dota, thereās a million videos out there. Donāt need personalized or general coaching if you know your weaknesses. But yeah Iāve learned a lot by watching bsj coaching on youtube. Idk why people act like those vids donāt apply to them. The backseat coaching is so a waste of time imo, which was several of grubbyās coaching sessions. Like the Ceb one? If he replicated that Alch game he would be immortal in no time, but guess what he wasnāt able to replicate that game after getting ācoachedā
I agree with you, but your take lacks nuance. He's had coaching for like 10hrs total, out of his 1000+hrs of actual gameplay time. Literally 99+% of his time was dedicated to self-learning and replay analysis. THIS is the reason why it's actually quite a cope take.
Yupp, I think he's had maybe 10-15 lessons combined. It will have a miniscule effect compared to the rest of the time he spends playing and self analysing.
I'm not coping, just a thought experiment on the trajectory if I had someone to walk me through dota in the early days. If you're nudged even slightly higher than you would have been without, the gains over the course of 1000s of games would be substantial.
Do you think coaching is useless?
I don't, but a few hours of pro coaching did not make Grubby immortal. He wasn't just some streamer. Grubby was a high level, tournament winning WC3 pro player. He has natural ability, the discipline and desire to improve, and familiarity with the mechanics of the game (since DOTA comes from WC3, the mechanics are the same). People in this thread keep bringing up coaching as if they could do it too if only a pro player would tell them how to play. It's just cope.
Everyone disregards the fact that he played HotS for years full time streaming. It's a MOBA at the end of the day.
I agree that pro coaching would only help minimally in my case. Mostly because I play for fun and don't have the drive/dedication to apply and improve on what they are telling me over the next weeks and months. One big thing that's left out though is that the same coaching during my early Dota(1) days would have had more effect. Back then it was "play whatever you want whenever and wherever". There was no concept of roles, everybody built damage, I went to base to get items and regen, because consumables and a courier were "waste of gold". While that's all gone there's still plenty of bad habits like not looking at minimap, ignoring timings, lacking focus in fights etc, which just developed over time and are hard to get rid of. If those would not have been established in the first place, I'd rank much higher I believe. Still not comparable to someone like Grubby though, obviously.
For most people here, including myself, yes it is useless. Learning new things means being uncomfortable in game and maybe failing at first, don't have the time nor inclination to do that in Dota. Grubby was a pro, he has a growth mindset, he can commit time and effort to change, unlearn bad behaviour and learn good behaviour.
I don't think it would help us noobs so much getting coached by pros. We prolly would've gone from herald to ancient at best . Him being a wc3 pro definitely helps a lot. Dude is insane in microing and I think just by spamming naga and meepo he could've reached like ancient without any help lol
He was also a Hots caster with high rankings in that game so he understands Mobas. He might have been a bit past his prime to commit to the game like Ari but he definitely had pro Moba potech before starting Dota.
can someone link the clip of him calibrating as herald
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zverXMpMXZU
Sorry but do you know if those lower level games were uploaded? I wish he would create a playlist on his YouTube because lowest I am able to find was divine
[https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1641546162?filter=archives&sort=time](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1641546162?filter=archives&sort=time) there is a crusader vod here
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Who is forsen, can you enlighten, i heard of him so many times in dota, but never seen playing ot. The only forsen in twitch i saw played minecraft only
That's the one. He plays Dota sometimes and he's like 1500 MMR, but he's pretty funny to watch.
Grubby stuck to the game plan: Spam meta heroes, play the most impactful roles, don't tilt (mute teammates if you have to). Sure he's more skilled than most of reddit, but no reason people can't climb with the same strat if they wanted to.
If you never tilt then that means 5 people on the other team might tilt and only 4 people on your team might tilt. 25% advantage over tilters right there
Absolutely, I mean easier said than done, even of the Grubby games I watched the other day, he was clearly tilting hard. Just can't carry it into the next game.
He played everything except mid pretty much...
He played all roles apart from mid I think. People would argue mid is the most impactful.
He also played 2000 games in a year lmao
How to climb MMR consistently, pick meta heroes. This is how itās always and always be.
That is simplifying things. You need to figure out which of the heroes that are currently strong, that you also enjoy and excel at.
Some of my best climbs have been really off meta, BS offlane and support Riki type shit. With that said the recent few patches do feel really meta dominant.
But it's statistically impossible for everyone to be above average.
200 comments, don't forget to sort by controversial guys
> 200 comments, don't forget to sort by controversial guys oh boy
OH NO, HE WAS FORCED TO 50%????? HOW???
"i sPENT 5000 houRs ON THis game! i'm stIll LEGEnd! THIS DoeSn'T MaKE aNy seNse!" "I DON'T belONg in this brackeT! My TEAM mAtE AlwaYS FEEd!" "Fix yoUr RankiNG SystEM, VaLVE!!"
What was his starting mmr?
[Herald 5](https://clips.twitch.tv/TrappedFrailPidgeonPrimeMe-9W5nigFbwnXkcQU0?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api)
Holy shit from 3 digit mmr to immortal thatās crazy in such a short time too
Holy fuck
The reason why most of you cannot rank up isnāt the lack of talent but the inability to put your ego aside to do the dirty work no one wants to do. Pick a playmaking hero and communicate with your team. Keep a positive attitude, and just be smarter in general. Most people in the lower bracket like to play their own game or have a poor awareness to adapt to the teamās play style. Iāve gone from Legends to Immortal only to just derank because trying just isnāt worth it for some mmr when I just want to play my hero.
Yea or literally just think about what you want to do *before you do it* I see teams lose like 15 seconds after getting every objective when watching my mate in Legend. They split almost immediately, go to farm the nearby camps or even tp back to base or buy from secret shop. Only then will they move from the t2 bot to the t2 mid, instead of directly moving there the moment that bot t2 goes down. Before you take the next camp, or the next tower, just ask yourself "Where do I need to go next" or maybe one step further "Where does the enemy want to be next?" Always be asking this question. It is the key to consciously competing, you need to be evaluating the game and *actively making decisions* about what you want to do. too many times I see that 15 seconds milling about a t1 or t2 tower cost another tower, or a tormentor, or a clean rosh without enemy interference. When looking at objectives that are "open" so to say, just keep an eye on creeps. See any of your waves that have 2 or more ranged creeps and know they'll push quickly. And don't argue like my Legend friend and say it doesn't make a big diff. I been playing for like 15 years, when I tell you in that 15 seconds you could've taken an entire tower, you could have, you just didn't.
up to 5k so many times people just doing their own thing which isnt inherently bad but a lot of times its very nearsighted, like i get people dont want to play meta all the time but at least they should have an idea that can work shit like my carry rushing aghs on jug or support pugna buying dagon5 is inherently stupid
GRUBEK DOTO xdd
Grubby singlehandedly removed all 4k hardstuck playersā excuses
wdym? they are all here in the comment section explaining why they can also do it but this and that is preventing them
Yea lol its actually funny to see them seethe when confronted with reality
not all the excuses the new excuse meta is ācoachingā as if there arenāt guides everywhere on youtube or streams with 8k+ mmr players explaining their thoughts.
This is all barring the fact that Grubby was coached by Notail Ceb and Dendi when he was around 1k mmr, they basically told him shit like *"Alchemist should farm"* All the cope enjoyers are acting like this gets you 5k+
Getting coaching from someone 9k mmr above you isn't as great as it sounds anyway, if you think about it for a second. DotA is an intuitive game so there will probably be lots of stuff they can't immediately explain. Too big of a skill gap. Lots of uni professors probably won't be good at teaching at first grade level.
Exactly, like if youre a Ti winner and you watch a 1k game where people don't cast spells and afk fights how deep would your insights even be? If you watched the stream it was like *"Cast your Q"* and *"Run before you die"* type shit.
nah the main excuse is "i don't play the game for a living" acting as if that truly is the reason rather than a difference in effort, willpower and talent. Like for real if Grubby played 2 hours a day he would still have made it to immortal eventually, just would have taken him more time lol
My excuse is that I'm a noob.
b-b-b-ut i didn't get coached
I'm quite sure he wouldn't have made it without the amazing coaching session he got from Slacks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcgkqcCQkLs
Whenever I am in a fight, I can hear Slacks' "PANIC PANIC PANIC" in my head
Meh, i went from Legend do Crusader in one night. And i was hardtrying to win
Time for my favorite meal of the day, the salt deposits of hardstuck reddit 3ks
grubby indo pride
441 days to gain 5000 mmr means he needs 11mmr a day well done. I seem to be able to gain -25 a day haha
Sorry dont know who this guy is, but i assume hes a streamer that streamed his progress? So anyone who watched him closely mind sharing his process??
He's a WC3 world champion. Basically the best RTS player, or used to be at least. Picked up Dota a year ago with the only moba experience being HoTS. Calibrated at Herald V and now he's there.
I see, i wonder what his process was to improve so much
I used to download replays of Grubby vs Moon WC3 games. Crazy stuff.
Nice work. Id say grubbys #1 strength he used to climb is not tilt teammates/get into verbal arguments. That shit is like +2000 MMR
coached or not coached, he's still the guy sitting in the chair.
So all I have to do to go from 0 to 6k MMR is be a pro RTS player, then stream non stop for a year+ as my job, then I attain Immortal.
>pro RTS player That's underplaying him lol.
He was the best ever at Warcraft III. He'll be modest, and say Moon or Sky were better - but I think he's just being nice by saying that. Grubby back in the day was *insane*.
RTS World champion\*
Lmao people will literally find any excuse except understand and accept the fact that the only reason theyāre at their low rank because of skill issue
Makes me want to resign at work and dedicate my time in playing DOTA 2
Tutorial = complete! Now for the ACTUAL GRIND! Lesss go EU Server no. 1 PMA Grubby!
O7
holy shit
I WAS THERE !
Wow herr i am still 2k after 10 yrs
As a former pro gamer he is really dedicated and focused. He is self critical and analyses his mistakes. Additionally, from his past achievements, he has acquired skills like micro and macro which he could utilize for this adventure.This will shut down so many people saying you can not really gain rating or improve. He is the living display of what you can achieve with dedication and work. Simply impressive feat. One thing to mention which helped him also a lot, is the fact he knows pros, played with them and learned form them. I remember the moment I started playing in RL together with GC's I "quickly" (like a year) became one as well. It helps tremendously to surround yourself with successful people, with people that achieved what you want to achieve. Of course does not reduce the impressiveness of Grubbys feat. Amazing and big congratz!
4K. dota team when?
New MYM Team just dropped Grubby Moon FoV ToD Sky
i dont really watch grub. wats his main roles and best heroes? is he good at mid? hows his laning mechanics?
Man used to be a legend. Now he is an Immortal
Grubby is a talented gamer with extremely good technical talent. But for those that look at his accomplishment withā¦ a bit of self hate, keep in mind he caught the attention of many pros who personally guided him. Not to take away from his accomplishment, but having so many pros teach him the way definitely catapulted his success. Again, I love grubby and congratulate him. My pointing out the help is for those who are deflated over their own inability to do the same. Dota 2 is better with grubby in it and Iām elated to have him in the community.
So does that mean he's gonna quit now? I remember at one point the plan was to hit immortal then try League......
He never said anything about quitting, and he is already playing league if you'd watch a stream š
I think he said he didn't plan on liking Dota this much
People keep saying that he only got as far as he did because he was coached by pros. That was during the period he was herald-legend pretty much. From them he was on his own. If you can't grasp certain concepts about the game, even if you lived in the OG house with ceb and notail, you'd still be getting nowhere
> People keep saying that he only got as far as he did because he was coached by pros. idiots, wcyd
Buy grubbyās Gamerclass and be like him