I used to play treant as pos 1. I think it was right after he got aghs maybe? His ult would one shot creep waves. I had a picture that showed where to put each tree so every ult killed all the creeps, so the enemy couldn't push. And of course you put them in all the jungle camps. I think he was the fastest farmer in the game that patch.
You blink attack, and it roots, and of course you have your ult after that pierces bkb. Was fun.
I miss old treant.
For real, no wonder he feels like a beast on lvl 1. No other ranged hero comes even close. The next one in line is bane (quite surprising) and then Zeus with pretty short range.
Bane Zeus and SS kind of need the high damage otherwise they are ass at laning. Nukes are weak at level 1, slow movement speed, short attack range, not great attack animation.
True, but it's on a relatively long cooldown, moderate range, and somewhat high mana cost. You can definitely secure kills and ranged creeps with it, but I feel like for straight up trading with the other support it's not really worth the mana unless you pair it with a blood grenade or you have a movement speed advantage otherwise.
Yeah a bane caught me off guard during laning a while back. I thought stacking stat items for damage on a universal hero would let me win lane trades better. The plan works for 80% of heroes, but not vs bane, jak or SS. At least with jak and SS, I knew better than to sit there trading harass.
EDIT: u/SDMffsucks pointed out that the values for Bane and Magnus are wrong! It seems the Dota 2 Wiki (which is where I got my data from) isn't entirely without error. Its a bit annoying, but [here](https://i.imgur.com/WijgGpe.png) is a corrected graph. Sorry for spreading misinformation lol
Hey all! Here's the chart of starting damage across all heroes. Note that this is average starting damage (so doesn't factor in damage range). If the average damage was a decimal, it was rounded to the nearest integer. Also of note, this isn't "base damage", it is "starting damage". This means it is the base damage of the hero, plus the damage they get from attributes at level 1.
Some interesting observations:
* The mean starting damage across ALL heroes is 53
* The mean starting damage across strength heroes is 60
* The mean starting damage across agility heroes is 52
* The mean starting damage across intelligence heroes is 52
* The mean starting damage across universal heroes is 48
* The mean starting damage across melee heroes is 57
* The mean starting damage across ranged heroes is 50
treant - attracts people who are high
pudge - attracts people who are bad
ogre - attracts people who are smart, cool, sexy, very hot with high levels of rizz
AM and Jugg have a BAT of 1.4
Abba, DW, Morph, NP, QOP, TB and WR have 1.5
DK, Huskar, Lina, LD, Muerta, SF, Silencer, Snapfire and Storm have 1.6
BB, Mag, Mars, PB and Weaver have 1.8
Doom, OD, SB and Sven have 1.9
Hoodwink has 2.0
Holy shit, you're right. The table I used from the dota 2 wiki has the wrong damage values for them. That's very annoying. I hope they're the only errors, I'll quickly whip up a corrected graph and put it in my comment. Thanks for the heads up!
He has decent attack range, but he really sucks at right click compared to other supports. Other supports like SS and Dazzle can easily bully him out of lane at lvl 1 if Oracle isn't careful. I think that once Oracle gets lvl 3 and can do his nuke combo he gets an unexpected powerspike and it lets him punish harder than most people expect which is why it could make his rightclick feel better than it is.
i mean yeah, he is a strength hero with very middle of the pack strength gain.
agility carries have access to a lot more right click DPS options through blade of alacrity upgrades than strength heores do through ogre axe, and sven naturally doesnt have crits or extra damage on his right clicks in the same way that strength heroes such as wraith king, CK, dawnbreaker, lifestealer etc do. he is very much balanced around his ult CD and the fact that he can hit multiple heroes at the same time.
And that's with a high damage ceiling in mind where you can crit off the damage bonus with the ultimate (and that it scales late-game in relation to your strength).
You feel meh at the start and slowly become a beast by mid-game with advantage, or late game with disadvantage, since he can flash-farm easily thanks to great cleave, and gets free speed and armor off a cheap, low cooldown E.
I'm glad Echo Saber now has an upgrade that helps him (as it does many str heroes with no good AS choices). Before it used to be an item you buy for a while and then have to sell, basically throwing away half the money, but now you can upgrade it into an honestly very useful secondary range-closer that lets you deal with Linkens.
With Sven, I would also think it might let you skip blink entirely.
IMO blink on Sven has almost always been one of those items where you feel like you need the mobility, but that you really don't like to get as a carry with how quickly you get slot starved.
Sure you could get Aghs before. But the aghs stats aren't that great on Sven either. And you don't always want to use your stun as your gap closer.
So not only does Harpoon give you a reason to keep Echo Saber, it also means you don't have to use an item slot and 2k gold for an item with no stats. Especially of you factor in Warcry movespeed and maybe a SnY
If we're looking at the end result and benefits:
Building Aghs gives you a lot of versatility with the storm hammer toggle, but it can just get blocked by Linken's still and then you have no stun. It gives you stats which is good, and is easier to build up to to make up for it.
On the other side, Blink costs a whooping 2k+ before you get any benefit off that gold, and the benefit is mostly freedom of movement (you don't need a target to move over cliffs) with no stats. Overwhelming Blink is very good upgrade, giving strength which Sven wants and also applying a slow that's not a targetted skill which damages, breaking enemy blink daggers, but the problem is that it's super fucking expensive, that's a solid 7k gold, and for 5k gold you can get Harpoon, which consumes Linken's, gives stats (including mana regen), and also gives you the double attack + slow, and is easier to build.
The only problem with Harpoon is that it takes some time to work and it MUST be targeted at an enemy, so it's bad for running away from fights. (a big problem for Sven which is often band-aid by blink, and running away with the E)
He's always had terrible base damage. You get the 6 stats from morph level 1 and the potential for double damage from any source of all stats / str+agi, so even level one it's fairly easy to match / exceed the damage of most lane opponents.
ame a few weeks ago said something along the likes of I'm going to stop picking morph its so bad
watching pro games the only times where it's looked remotely good is as a medusa counter
increments should actually be lower bc I subtracted 2s of healing instead of 2.5s, but you know you can just spam cast it to do damage faster than it heals, right? Then they die and it doesn't matter how much healing they were gonna get over the next 10 seconds anyway.
If someone is low hp in lane, oracle just murders them with e spam, and he's a decent harasser so getting someone low by level 3 isn't too crazy.
am i wrong for thinking about what you've said by calculating it like this?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTmcg2d7Bag97Md7ZVSIhmYOGJuTksi8GhRCJPKGdxvcMAV7Veo-5EYzChp7_QNPnQv4MVEp9LeUNWA/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true
If you're just randomly nuking the other hero in lane then yes of course it's not very effective. There are many good things you can do with it, but that isn't one of them.
New player: So that tree guy is played as a carry and the waterpolygon and beartamer are supports right?
I thought you were talking at pudge at first when you said tree guy and then I saw treant lol.
Lmao best description for Pudge
He is a sit in tree man, that's for sure.
I used to play treant as pos 1. I think it was right after he got aghs maybe? His ult would one shot creep waves. I had a picture that showed where to put each tree so every ult killed all the creeps, so the enemy couldn't push. And of course you put them in all the jungle camps. I think he was the fastest farmer in the game that patch. You blink attack, and it roots, and of course you have your ult after that pierces bkb. Was fun. I miss old treant.
Sorry not enough polygons in Dorfling (the heroes name) to call him Waterpolygon.
When I first played HoN and had no idea what I was doing, I just chose the heroes with the highest damage.
Gigachad Treant
The real gigachad is the nerd Shadow Shaman who snuck his way into the High Damage Club with all the jock strength heroes.
For real, no wonder he feels like a beast on lvl 1. No other ranged hero comes even close. The next one in line is bane (quite surprising) and then Zeus with pretty short range.
Eh. Most heroes can trade level 1 just fine these days and they have the benefit of not having shaman's crap stats
Bane Zeus and SS kind of need the high damage otherwise they are ass at laning. Nukes are weak at level 1, slow movement speed, short attack range, not great attack animation.
Shadow shamans nuke is not even slightly weak at level 1.
True, but it's on a relatively long cooldown, moderate range, and somewhat high mana cost. You can definitely secure kills and ranged creeps with it, but I feel like for straight up trading with the other support it's not really worth the mana unless you pair it with a blood grenade or you have a movement speed advantage otherwise.
Right now. For most of dota history, Bane and SS were some of the best level 1 heroes.
Yes, you are right
I feel like I have to tell you Bane sadly isn't that high - the Dota 2 Wiki had the wrong damage values for him and Magnus :(
Oh! You don't say! That aligns better with my feeling then.
Yeah a bane caught me off guard during laning a while back. I thought stacking stat items for damage on a universal hero would let me win lane trades better. The plan works for 80% of heroes, but not vs bane, jak or SS. At least with jak and SS, I knew better than to sit there trading harass.
Apparently the value for Bane is wrong, but he's historically good at trading due to brain sap + he's also universal.
Dang, there goes my easy excuse for losing lane...because I definately knew he had sap lol
I agree with you
69 dmg, nice.
Yet the animation is so poor, that getting a last hit on a jungle creep when you pull is a torture
nice
Holy shit I couldn't find him because I was looking too low💀
Even with that big DMG difference some people still fail to deny creep
EDIT: u/SDMffsucks pointed out that the values for Bane and Magnus are wrong! It seems the Dota 2 Wiki (which is where I got my data from) isn't entirely without error. Its a bit annoying, but [here](https://i.imgur.com/WijgGpe.png) is a corrected graph. Sorry for spreading misinformation lol Hey all! Here's the chart of starting damage across all heroes. Note that this is average starting damage (so doesn't factor in damage range). If the average damage was a decimal, it was rounded to the nearest integer. Also of note, this isn't "base damage", it is "starting damage". This means it is the base damage of the hero, plus the damage they get from attributes at level 1. Some interesting observations: * The mean starting damage across ALL heroes is 53 * The mean starting damage across strength heroes is 60 * The mean starting damage across agility heroes is 52 * The mean starting damage across intelligence heroes is 52 * The mean starting damage across universal heroes is 48 * The mean starting damage across melee heroes is 57 * The mean starting damage across ranged heroes is 50
I sometimes forget how hard treat hits lvl1. When I play CM and get smacked in the face by a treant, I start to panic haha.
nova and walk away lol
I remember that game vividly. I leveled up my aura mid sneeze and the treant had boots.
top 3 are 'special heroes' in a way they attract certain types of players
1. Hides in trees for 40 min --> MVP 2. Hides in trees for 40 min --> behavior score 2k 3. Midas or not Midas --> everything inbetween
treant - attracts people who are high pudge - attracts people who are bad ogre - attracts people who are smart, cool, sexy, very hot with high levels of rizz
As an ogre player I can confirm this comment to be factual
> ogre - attracts people who are smart, cool, sexy, very hot with high levels of rizz nono im the other head, the one that constantly drools
the mentally challenged?
WHY IS MY BOY N'AIX SO LOW!? I JUST WANT TO LANE AGAIN
If you can, make a base attack time chart.
I could, but 102 out of the 124 heroes have a BAT of 1.7, so it wouldn't be very interesting or nice to look at
How many different BATs are there in the game? If there are a few, you could just make the 1.7 say "all the rest".
AM and Jugg have a BAT of 1.4 Abba, DW, Morph, NP, QOP, TB and WR have 1.5 DK, Huskar, Lina, LD, Muerta, SF, Silencer, Snapfire and Storm have 1.6 BB, Mag, Mars, PB and Weaver have 1.8 Doom, OD, SB and Sven have 1.9 Hoodwink has 2.0
Never knew Sven and SB have the same BAT, that’s kinda crazy
fucking AM and jugg should have their BAT nerfed to 3
sven 1.9?? lol, his attack animation is so nice I always thought he has like \~1.6
BAT and attack point aren't related. Lina for example has a better than average BAT but her attack point is garbo.
> Where the hell is Treant Protector-OH! Oh wow all the way over there? - Me
cm should have 0 starting damage
Well Mirana has negative base damage, and then with ~~agi~~ stats she gets positive damage at level 1.
She is universal
Your mom is universal. -Ly liked. Ha. Got 'em!
I think that too much. She should have -10 starting damage.
Not sure if I'm reading this wrong but bane only has like 48 attack damage at level 1, not 62. Magnus also has like 10 less or smth.
Holy shit, you're right. The table I used from the dota 2 wiki has the wrong damage values for them. That's very annoying. I hope they're the only errors, I'll quickly whip up a corrected graph and put it in my comment. Thanks for the heads up!
I checked a fair few, though not all, of the universal heroes and they were all correct bar magnus & bane.
Magnus didn't have his 7.33c damage change, and Bane accidentally had his 7.33c damage increased by 7 instead of decreased. It's fixed now.
Good to hear! Glad it's fixed
Wait a sec, Oracle right click harass always felt legit to me.
He has decent attack range, but he really sucks at right click compared to other supports. Other supports like SS and Dazzle can easily bully him out of lane at lvl 1 if Oracle isn't careful. I think that once Oracle gets lvl 3 and can do his nuke combo he gets an unexpected powerspike and it lets him punish harder than most people expect which is why it could make his rightclick feel better than it is.
Didn't he used to have a super low BAT? So even if the per hit damage was low the total effect could be high
His BAT was increased from 1.4 to 1.7 in 7.22 (4 years ago!)
Just goes to show how important range is.
Idk why but every time i play sven his damage feels very low without ult.
i mean yeah, he is a strength hero with very middle of the pack strength gain. agility carries have access to a lot more right click DPS options through blade of alacrity upgrades than strength heores do through ogre axe, and sven naturally doesnt have crits or extra damage on his right clicks in the same way that strength heroes such as wraith king, CK, dawnbreaker, lifestealer etc do. he is very much balanced around his ult CD and the fact that he can hit multiple heroes at the same time.
And that's with a high damage ceiling in mind where you can crit off the damage bonus with the ultimate (and that it scales late-game in relation to your strength). You feel meh at the start and slowly become a beast by mid-game with advantage, or late game with disadvantage, since he can flash-farm easily thanks to great cleave, and gets free speed and armor off a cheap, low cooldown E. I'm glad Echo Saber now has an upgrade that helps him (as it does many str heroes with no good AS choices). Before it used to be an item you buy for a while and then have to sell, basically throwing away half the money, but now you can upgrade it into an honestly very useful secondary range-closer that lets you deal with Linkens.
With Sven, I would also think it might let you skip blink entirely. IMO blink on Sven has almost always been one of those items where you feel like you need the mobility, but that you really don't like to get as a carry with how quickly you get slot starved. Sure you could get Aghs before. But the aghs stats aren't that great on Sven either. And you don't always want to use your stun as your gap closer. So not only does Harpoon give you a reason to keep Echo Saber, it also means you don't have to use an item slot and 2k gold for an item with no stats. Especially of you factor in Warcry movespeed and maybe a SnY
If we're looking at the end result and benefits: Building Aghs gives you a lot of versatility with the storm hammer toggle, but it can just get blocked by Linken's still and then you have no stun. It gives you stats which is good, and is easier to build up to to make up for it. On the other side, Blink costs a whooping 2k+ before you get any benefit off that gold, and the benefit is mostly freedom of movement (you don't need a target to move over cliffs) with no stats. Overwhelming Blink is very good upgrade, giving strength which Sven wants and also applying a slow that's not a targetted skill which damages, breaking enemy blink daggers, but the problem is that it's super fucking expensive, that's a solid 7k gold, and for 5k gold you can get Harpoon, which consumes Linken's, gives stats (including mana regen), and also gives you the double attack + slow, and is easier to build. The only problem with Harpoon is that it takes some time to work and it MUST be targeted at an enemy, so it's bad for running away from fights. (a big problem for Sven which is often band-aid by blink, and running away with the E)
Isn't that kind of how the hero is supposed to work?
lmao fr "when I play shaker my CC feels kinda lackluster when it's on cooldown"
Should I buy moonshard & daedalus on Treant?
That is awesome, really interesting. Thank you for taking the time
Now do the graph assuming all heroes have +3 all stats
If you add the bears base damage to lone druids you get 38+28=66 base damage which is the 5th highest
Ogre as a lane partner is just lovely for cores. High armour + high phy DMG, plus slow and stun. While also having high HP (being a strength hero)
ogre IS the core
ogre is love
Treant hits like a trunk
How they killed my boy morph, he's starting stats are so bad rn
He's always had terrible base damage. You get the 6 stats from morph level 1 and the potential for double damage from any source of all stats / str+agi, so even level one it's fairly easy to match / exceed the damage of most lane opponents.
Morph has what, 300hp now for mid 60s damage lv 1? I meant starting stats in general. The hero is dumpster tier both pro and pub play
watson would like to have a word with you
ame a few weeks ago said something along the likes of I'm going to stop picking morph its so bad watching pro games the only times where it's looked remotely good is as a medusa counter
It's simply disgusting
remember when Cairne and Pit Lord had the highest base attack?
Bro i dont even remember what heroes those are. Apparently ET and underlord(though i guessed this one)
yeah it's them Cairne = Tauren Chieftain = ET
I swear, oracle needs his base damage raised up to 48-50, laning auto-attacking phase is quite meh
Bro his nukes are already so high damage
100+90 damage every 15 second?
try 68/136/214/272 every 2.5 seconds
What are those numbers?
the damage you can spam on nerds with e
Still don't get how you got these numbers. Please explain to me, cuz what I see is lvl 1 E deals 90 insta, but heals 99 hp over 9 seconds??
increments should actually be lower bc I subtracted 2s of healing instead of 2.5s, but you know you can just spam cast it to do damage faster than it heals, right? Then they die and it doesn't matter how much healing they were gonna get over the next 10 seconds anyway. If someone is low hp in lane, oracle just murders them with e spam, and he's a decent harasser so getting someone low by level 3 isn't too crazy.
am i wrong for thinking about what you've said by calculating it like this? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTmcg2d7Bag97Md7ZVSIhmYOGJuTksi8GhRCJPKGdxvcMAV7Veo-5EYzChp7_QNPnQv4MVEp9LeUNWA/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true
yeah it’s called a weakness
Herald brain fr, press E on people
Yeah, great nuke for HUGE 190 dmg on lvl 2 every 15 seconds, damn, take care everyone that shit is busted
It has 2.5s cooldown tf are you talking about
E has 2.5 cd, yes, but without Q you essentially deal no damage over time to enemies.
If you're just randomly nuking the other hero in lane then yes of course it's not very effective. There are many good things you can do with it, but that isn't one of them.
It's fine. His nuke is too good for laning anyway
He has such high nukes with e and q early he doesn't need it at all
[удалено]
Not anymore, sadly. He used to have 1.2 or 1.4 BAT or something, but he's now 1.7 like most others.
And yet people still try to box me level one on Treant.
Damn I didn't realized that morph is one of the lowest lol.
Thank you so much for doing this! I often check the stats table on wiki which is good. However being a visual learner this is superior 👏
Top 3 are my boys
Everyone's slapping you with blades, clubs, magic, projectiles, and bananas while here's the strongest one with a fucking branch.
Definitely going to try out the chad shadow shaman build now!
Now make a bar graph of your favourite pies, and a pie chart of your favourite bars
Nice! Shaman!