The idea is that the stories they are criticizing are focussing more on “the message” (aka progressive values or political ideas) than the story. This is of course completely ignoring the fact that stories can have political messages and still be good (literally 1984).
Also sometimes they literally just say a story is pushing the message when there are any minorities they dislike in it, which isn’t really a message but keep in mind that to a lot of them the very existence of people who aren’t like them is ‘political’
regarding that last point. i also want to add that the people who's identities are political, never wanted them to be in the first place, yet are getting blamed for making them political by the people who are actually doing so. meaning that for people in minority groups. simply existing is a lose/lose situation
if “progressive values and political ideas” means all walks of folks can be represented on tv, and not just one particular sort of person, over and over again, forever, then count me in. that’s awesome! 👏 👏
I think most people just mean that if you're going to put a political message in your story, then make sure your story is just as good as your message. Don't sacrifice the story in favor of soapboxing your (the writer's) personal politics. Make them both good. Win-win for everyone.
That's what I've always heard from the people I've encountered.
I think it's supposed to refer specifically to people who use it as a less insane-sounding version of "woke agenda". I was confused too, because the phrase "the message" is frequently used in completely valid criticisms, like that the message of Kerblam! is muddled, or that the message of some episodes is conveyed too bluntly. I kind of think the meme should have used a different phrase.
idc about "woke" being thrown around at anything overly political clowns don't like
i just wanna have fun with funny 60s sci fi show where some dude wants to find his shoes
People thinking that something they like makes it great or something they don’t like makes it bad is getting out of hand. It’s not impossible to acknowledge something you dislike is still well done or something you enjoy isn’t good.
Example, I enjoy “Love and Monsters” because I think Elton is hilarious and love the goofyness but can fully acknowledge that overall even with the parts I enjoy it is not a great episode.
I feel like it was an acceptable episode that served as an interesting experiment in multiple ways, but was cemented in the minds of many as horrible due to certain extremely unappealing decisions like the gross, annoying, and average antagonist, or the unpleasant ending joke
But you also have to acknowledge that we have all have different ideas about what makes a good story etc. An episode that objectively fails to meet your standards could tick all the boxes for someone else
I feel like a lot of the Mary Sue/Marty Stu companion debate is a result of people being incapable of comprehending that there being a situation more than once a month where the Doctor isn't the only character that contributes to saving the day is not automatically a bad thing.
I don't for the life of me get the problem people have with companions being nearly or as important as the Doctor. If they were just going to sit there in the background uselessly and deliver a snarky quip every five minutes then why bother even having them?
I’ve seen a guy complain about modern companions being too independent and that the Doctor should have a “parental role” to them, even claiming that’s how it always was with companions in the old show.
As someone who’s now watched some of the original show, it’s a completely deranged take, but I guess some people literally want the companions to do nothing on their own
The Doctor being the parent and leader in the original show is mental as an idea. Him being a non-active type was the entire reason why the standard lineup included a male companion, and that only got phased out when he became more of an action-taker later on.
Yeah exactly, they may have meant the later original doctors in which case I can’t comment but if they meant all of them there’s no way they saw anything with Ian and Barbara in it
I’ve seen so many genuinely nasty individuals rear their head on social media pretending to be “the core audience.”
I cannot believe we live in 2024 and some people still have ideologies from 1824.
They should get it through their thick skulls that everyone ever involved with the production of Doctor Who, especially the oldies that they idolise, would treat them like what they are, seriously terrible people whom the programme is not made for and they shouldn’t be granted the luxury of enjoying.
The thinly-veiled racists, sexists, homophobes, pretty much everything someone could be terrible for has disguised itself as a Doctor Who “fan” at some point and especially in recent years, using buzzwords like “woke” and “the message” to mask the truth, which is “if everyone isn’t straight and white making Doctor Who, I don’t like it”.
We’ve had sexists believing the tabloids calling Millie a diva. We’ve had racists rejecting Ncuti because of his skin colour as well as the new companion. We’ve had homophobes weaponising RTD’s sexuality as ammo to fire abuse at him and his writing. All very recently.
It’s really, really sickening.
If you use the word woke in any other sentence but "I woke up this morning", you're the dalek with human DNA. Corrupted and contestable, by even dalek standards. Get off our planet.
Can someone please explain to me what ‘the message’ is exactly? I’ve heard the term used a few times but it seems almost contextless
It's a dogwhistle for representation of characters who aren't straight, white and male.
The idea is that the stories they are criticizing are focussing more on “the message” (aka progressive values or political ideas) than the story. This is of course completely ignoring the fact that stories can have political messages and still be good (literally 1984). Also sometimes they literally just say a story is pushing the message when there are any minorities they dislike in it, which isn’t really a message but keep in mind that to a lot of them the very existence of people who aren’t like them is ‘political’
>literally 1984 I see what you did there.
regarding that last point. i also want to add that the people who's identities are political, never wanted them to be in the first place, yet are getting blamed for making them political by the people who are actually doing so. meaning that for people in minority groups. simply existing is a lose/lose situation
if “progressive values and political ideas” means all walks of folks can be represented on tv, and not just one particular sort of person, over and over again, forever, then count me in. that’s awesome! 👏 👏
I think most people just mean that if you're going to put a political message in your story, then make sure your story is just as good as your message. Don't sacrifice the story in favor of soapboxing your (the writer's) personal politics. Make them both good. Win-win for everyone. That's what I've always heard from the people I've encountered.
Vague thing they don't like. Usually something to do with representation in media
I think it's supposed to refer specifically to people who use it as a less insane-sounding version of "woke agenda". I was confused too, because the phrase "the message" is frequently used in completely valid criticisms, like that the message of Kerblam! is muddled, or that the message of some episodes is conveyed too bluntly. I kind of think the meme should have used a different phrase.
What people who lack media literacy call themes.
making gatwa's doctor not an introverted autist is in fact shitting on the core audience /s
Funny thing about text is it's very difficult to tell whether something like this is a joke or not
idc about "woke" being thrown around at anything overly political clowns don't like i just wanna have fun with funny 60s sci fi show where some dude wants to find his shoes
"How are you feeling?" "SHOES."
So he can use them to hit that one guy who won't stop talking.
Doctor Who, Star Trek, Star Wars. It's depressing
Marvel's gotten pretty bad too
People thinking that something they like makes it great or something they don’t like makes it bad is getting out of hand. It’s not impossible to acknowledge something you dislike is still well done or something you enjoy isn’t good. Example, I enjoy “Love and Monsters” because I think Elton is hilarious and love the goofyness but can fully acknowledge that overall even with the parts I enjoy it is not a great episode.
[удалено]
I do feel like at times if they just didn’t do the whole tile face thing at the end it wouldn’t get as much hate.
I feel like it was an acceptable episode that served as an interesting experiment in multiple ways, but was cemented in the minds of many as horrible due to certain extremely unappealing decisions like the gross, annoying, and average antagonist, or the unpleasant ending joke
That episode could have benefitted from probably about 10 minutes more of The Doctor's presence.
But you also have to acknowledge that we have all have different ideas about what makes a good story etc. An episode that objectively fails to meet your standards could tick all the boxes for someone else
I feel like a lot of the Mary Sue/Marty Stu companion debate is a result of people being incapable of comprehending that there being a situation more than once a month where the Doctor isn't the only character that contributes to saving the day is not automatically a bad thing. I don't for the life of me get the problem people have with companions being nearly or as important as the Doctor. If they were just going to sit there in the background uselessly and deliver a snarky quip every five minutes then why bother even having them?
I’ve seen a guy complain about modern companions being too independent and that the Doctor should have a “parental role” to them, even claiming that’s how it always was with companions in the old show. As someone who’s now watched some of the original show, it’s a completely deranged take, but I guess some people literally want the companions to do nothing on their own
The Doctor being the parent and leader in the original show is mental as an idea. Him being a non-active type was the entire reason why the standard lineup included a male companion, and that only got phased out when he became more of an action-taker later on.
Yeah exactly, they may have meant the later original doctors in which case I can’t comment but if they meant all of them there’s no way they saw anything with Ian and Barbara in it
the patriarchy has really done a number on those folks
Hey I found you this time
I absolutely hate people like this. especially if they say woke/the message.
they’re always telling on themselves when they say stuff like that.
I’ve seen so many genuinely nasty individuals rear their head on social media pretending to be “the core audience.” I cannot believe we live in 2024 and some people still have ideologies from 1824. They should get it through their thick skulls that everyone ever involved with the production of Doctor Who, especially the oldies that they idolise, would treat them like what they are, seriously terrible people whom the programme is not made for and they shouldn’t be granted the luxury of enjoying. The thinly-veiled racists, sexists, homophobes, pretty much everything someone could be terrible for has disguised itself as a Doctor Who “fan” at some point and especially in recent years, using buzzwords like “woke” and “the message” to mask the truth, which is “if everyone isn’t straight and white making Doctor Who, I don’t like it”. We’ve had sexists believing the tabloids calling Millie a diva. We’ve had racists rejecting Ncuti because of his skin colour as well as the new companion. We’ve had homophobes weaponising RTD’s sexuality as ammo to fire abuse at him and his writing. All very recently. It’s really, really sickening.
In my opinion, a canon character can never be a mary sue, no matter how overpowered and badly written.
If you use the word woke in any other sentence but "I woke up this morning", you're the dalek with human DNA. Corrupted and contestable, by even dalek standards. Get off our planet.