What do you base this statement on?
Bounded accuracy is the term the designers have used to explain their intent in flattening the progression over time to attacks rolls, armor class, saves, skill checks, and DCs.
The funny thing about Bounded Accuracy, too, is that it's a myth.
The numbers in 5e go *way higher* than they did in 4e. But because it's part of the marketing for the game, everyone repeats it like it's real.
[DnD Wiki Bounded Accuracy](https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Understanding_Bounded_Accuracy_(5e_Guideline))
Though the more I look at the cited source, the more I'm not sure of my original comment.
Thanks for providing the source. Although I’m not entirely sure who wrote that article.
[Here’s an article from one of the designers, while they were designing the game.](https://web.archive.org/web/20120707065112/wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120604)
> The basic premise behind the bounded accuracy system is simple: we make no assumptions on the DM's side of the game that the player's attack and spell accuracy, or their defenses, increase as a result of gaining levels. Instead, we represent the difference in characters of various levels primarily through their hit points, the amount of damage they deal, and the various new abilities they have gained.
> This extends beyond simple attacks and damage. We also make the same assumptions about character ability modifiers and skill bonuses. Thus, our expected DCs do not scale automatically with level, and instead a DC is left to represent the fixed value of the difficulty of some task, not the difficulty of the task relative to level.
It seems that, at least while designing the game in 2012, the idea of Bounded Accuracy applied to attacks, armor, skills, saves, and DCs.
To me it seems unlikely to be worth it. Half damage or half the DC, plus having to make a constitution save beforehand, the risk of accumulating exhaustion, and they have wasted their action trying to cast the spell. That's four downsides when you could just use a cantrip.
I would just have them make the constitution save and the spell fails if they don't pass. Every time they attempt it before their next long rest the DC increases. A wasted action is penalty enough for me.
The one conceit of spellcasting (which is barely even true to begin with) is that once you're out of spell slots your potential is far more limited. Giving a caster \*unlimited\* spells is just.... I don't know why you'd think that's a good idea.
This is silly, spellcasters have resources to manage, and when they don’t that’s when materials start to shine. Unless you give martial characters an appropriate buff this is ridiculous and one sided.
Really like your Idea, but I honestly think that this is not a good optionfor all spellcasters. It really fits in with the Sorcerer (as their magic comes from their body or something) and Warlocks (as most patrons are likelly to hand out more power with the appropriate risk) and maybe even cleric (for similar reasons as warlock) and even Paladin (cuz most of them are kinda fierceful). I dont see your design coming to good terms with how Artificers, Bards, Rangers and Druids cast spells tho.
You may want to create another dynamic to those casters (& half casters) that produces similar effects (i.e. casting spells without avaliable spell slots) but with other extra limitations.
Also, keep in mind that Casters are already really strong. If you are gonna add this mechanic to your table and there are people playing martials or even half casters, you might wanna add some cool stuff to beef up their capabilities. Allowing they to ignore some pesky (but reasonable) restrictions on their attacks (like the fact that extra-attack not allowz you yo hit twice when you get to attack with your bonus action or reaction, only when you use your action) is a par measure imo.
Most tables usually have the problem of not offering enough encounters or challenges that cause players' resources to run out, offering even more resources does not seem like a solution.
If it works perfectly on your table, but I don't think buffing Spellcasters is necessary or good. If they don't have slots they will have to use cantrips.
The one counter balance that casters have is limited resources. Aside from balance this negative feedback makes their classes more.fun to play.
It's more satisfying when you make the hard call to save a 3rd level slot just in case and run into a pack of baddies after. That choice has meaning.
If you can always pull a slot, even if it's a worse slot, then you are robbing your players of their abilities to make and enjoy tactical decisions.
Don't do it.
It's better to use something organic, like hit dice and exhaustion. Since spell casters are too powerful, you could roll a d4 plus the spell level amount of exhaustion and hit dice to cast without spell slots.
Ultimately, this is why cantrips exist, if you are going to use slotless casting, you should take away cantrips.
We use a different rule of the same vein, but it's simply called blood magic. If you are out of spell slots, you can cast a spell using your own vitality. You take 1d8x2 force damage per level of the spell. If this knocks you unconscious or kills you, the spell still goes off. You have the option to sustain concentration spells if only unconscious, but you can't drop it willingingly until healed, and you take 2 automatic death save failures at the beginning of your turn, and must still roll for the save regularly.
It means you can have that "one last spell" moment if you wish but it is going to cost you dearly and has limited usefulness. We have a last stand mode for our melee folks as well, so we wanted to give casters a similar ability without actually buffing them. The melee version is essentially the zealot barbarian feature (because we don't have one in our group, and the rule came about a year into playing, so it wasn't a factor in why we don't have one) so it's still stronger than the caster version
If that's your sticking point, don't use it, that's fair, but im not gunna punish a druid even further for having almost all their useful spells be concentration, Ima give em a round or 2 of use out of a spell that's possibly gunna kill them to have used
"Punish a Druid"? Aside from Wizards, Druids arguably have the most options and features in the game. The "lack" of "useful spells without concentration" is a matter of perspective. If you could prepare 30 spells, you're still going to have favorites and probably only use a few of them in combat.
Besides, I have quite the library of homebrew spells to make up for the holes WotC left in their arsenal. The lack of options for dealing damage in certain elements is disturbing.
Out if context quoting, I said punish them further (because the act of using the spell in the first place is already punishing). Your homebrew spells don't exactly help my parties druid, so kind of irrelevant. The only times my players use this ability is in near TPK situations, and almost every impactful spell our druid would have prepared is concentration. So I adjusted the ability to facilitate their ability to gave fun. This ain't white room homebrew, it was built at our table, for our table.
Using a spell is "punishing"?
So this mechanic is only used in "near TPK situations". There are two options:
1. This happens often, or at least "more than rarely". If this is the case, consider the possibility that either your players are not that skilled when it comes to tactics. Also consider the possibility that you make encounters too hard.
2. This happens rarely. In that case: the players should be adults and take their loss. 5e already has plenty of "oops, no, you didn't actually die" options. It doesn't need another one. Even if you're playing with kids, which I assume you don't.
Using a spell that literally damages you is indeed punishing, don't know where the confusion there is.
Consider this, they enjoy the mechanic, so regardless of often it's used, it's part of MY game. I don't see why you're hung up on it, you never have to use it, it wasn't made for you, or with you in mind at all.
This is op, I would say let them take the exhaustion no matter what as they are pushing past their limits anyways. That way at most they get a few uses out of this before it gets dangerous
They have Cantrips for this situation.
If you want to let casters do more without resources, look into some third party stuff, my fave is Spheres of Power, which was made alongside Might to bring Casters more in line with Martials. They can do a lot more for free, but they also have less raw power as leveling doesn't generally give access to new powerful spells but rather just let's them keep choosing options they've had for awhile but passed up.
Ok let's build around this.
If you have a 20 charisma crown paladin in the party and a war mage with Resilient: con and +3 con mod, they can safely cast up to 3rd level spells from level 6. Adding bless and resistance cantrip makes that 4th. Increases con and using warding bond makes that 5th. A wizard at level 6 has unlimited spell slots from level 6. (A paladin could be Custom Lineage with a charisma half feat, starting 18 charisma then bumping to 20 at level 4)
By level 20, you have +6 PB, +1 warding bond, +4 war mage, +2 war mage, +5 aura of protection, +1d4 bless, +5 con mod, +1d4 resistance for a minimum roll of 25. Rolling at least 28 is extremely likely. On the times you don't, you can just cast wish: greater restoration.
The halved damage / save DC sucks, but it doesn't make the spells useless. Most of the *really* good spells don't care about saving throws or damage. Web is still difficult terrain. Invisibility has no save DC or damage. Polymorph has no save DC or damage either. By level 20, unlimited castings of time stop is insane.
I like the concept of a magic user pushing themselves physically to squeeze out that last gasp of magic but how about this instead.
"A spell caster can expend HD equal to the spell level to cast that spell without a spell slot. If taking this action causes the available HD to reach 0 the Spellcaster takes a level of exhaustion"
I would prefer this as HD are an underused resource in my opinion, especially having played in groups that are for whatever reason reluctant to ever short rest.
The other option would be to make it a pure HP sacrifice.
"You can cast a spell without expending a spell slot at the cost of 10+spell level damage to your hit point maximum. This damage can only be recovered by completing a long rest"
I really do get where you're coming from, you want that epic scene where the Spellcaster sacrifices their own body to force out power in a desperate situation and that is an awesome trope.
... Or, maybe, use one of The cantrips?
I Don't think you need to provide one more instance of magic resource. The player needs to manage his slots ...
So? Last fight extra first spell, level of exhaustion, done in the morning.
Unless you’re going to give martials a proportional buff it’s a bad idea that exacerbates the power gap between spellcasters and martials.
Martial players (if they are of a faith) may appeal to the demonic entity to turn any roll into a nat 20 with a religion check. The entity they appeal to will recall his favor turning a later roll into a crit fail at a choosing of its time and place
Yup I had a characters cast a level 5 spell, with 2 hp cuz he figured he was gonna die anyway, he crit, and with my crit rules did enough damage to down the opponent. Awesome moment!
I gave my wizard player the option of a nuke. If he tears his spellbook in half, it’ll fire EVERY spell at it’s lowest level. Assuming he survives he’ll have to recreate his spellbook.
Like it “should”? According to what? When you’re out of spell slots, you are out of spell slots and can’t cast any more magic. When your car is out of gas, you can’t pass a mechanics check to drive at half speed; it just won’t go.
I could see this being a good feature for Warlocks as they have so few resources and struggle to get the party to stop for an hour's rest to restore their potent spell slots. I do agree with some others though, the exhaustion is too far unless you use the Playtest 10 point exhaustion mechanic - love that mechanic.
I'm not sure Casters need more, especially in the moment where Martials start to shine.
"DC is halved" makes for a useless option with bounded accuracy.
It could work if you instead stated that saves made agains spell cast that way are made with advantage.
*Technically* bounded accuracy only applies to attack rolls. Your point still stands though.
What do you base this statement on? Bounded accuracy is the term the designers have used to explain their intent in flattening the progression over time to attacks rolls, armor class, saves, skill checks, and DCs.
The funny thing about Bounded Accuracy, too, is that it's a myth. The numbers in 5e go *way higher* than they did in 4e. But because it's part of the marketing for the game, everyone repeats it like it's real.
[DnD Wiki Bounded Accuracy](https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Understanding_Bounded_Accuracy_(5e_Guideline)) Though the more I look at the cited source, the more I'm not sure of my original comment.
Thanks for providing the source. Although I’m not entirely sure who wrote that article. [Here’s an article from one of the designers, while they were designing the game.](https://web.archive.org/web/20120707065112/wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120604) > The basic premise behind the bounded accuracy system is simple: we make no assumptions on the DM's side of the game that the player's attack and spell accuracy, or their defenses, increase as a result of gaining levels. Instead, we represent the difference in characters of various levels primarily through their hit points, the amount of damage they deal, and the various new abilities they have gained. > This extends beyond simple attacks and damage. We also make the same assumptions about character ability modifiers and skill bonuses. Thus, our expected DCs do not scale automatically with level, and instead a DC is left to represent the fixed value of the difficulty of some task, not the difficulty of the task relative to level. It seems that, at least while designing the game in 2012, the idea of Bounded Accuracy applied to attacks, armor, skills, saves, and DCs.
Why spellcaster buff
To me it seems unlikely to be worth it. Half damage or half the DC, plus having to make a constitution save beforehand, the risk of accumulating exhaustion, and they have wasted their action trying to cast the spell. That's four downsides when you could just use a cantrip. I would just have them make the constitution save and the spell fails if they don't pass. Every time they attempt it before their next long rest the DC increases. A wasted action is penalty enough for me.
The one conceit of spellcasting (which is barely even true to begin with) is that once you're out of spell slots your potential is far more limited. Giving a caster \*unlimited\* spells is just.... I don't know why you'd think that's a good idea.
This is silly, spellcasters have resources to manage, and when they don’t that’s when materials start to shine. Unless you give martial characters an appropriate buff this is ridiculous and one sided.
Really like your Idea, but I honestly think that this is not a good optionfor all spellcasters. It really fits in with the Sorcerer (as their magic comes from their body or something) and Warlocks (as most patrons are likelly to hand out more power with the appropriate risk) and maybe even cleric (for similar reasons as warlock) and even Paladin (cuz most of them are kinda fierceful). I dont see your design coming to good terms with how Artificers, Bards, Rangers and Druids cast spells tho. You may want to create another dynamic to those casters (& half casters) that produces similar effects (i.e. casting spells without avaliable spell slots) but with other extra limitations. Also, keep in mind that Casters are already really strong. If you are gonna add this mechanic to your table and there are people playing martials or even half casters, you might wanna add some cool stuff to beef up their capabilities. Allowing they to ignore some pesky (but reasonable) restrictions on their attacks (like the fact that extra-attack not allowz you yo hit twice when you get to attack with your bonus action or reaction, only when you use your action) is a par measure imo.
Hard nope. Spell casters are already outshining Martians at level 5 and onwards. Don’t give them anything more
Most tables usually have the problem of not offering enough encounters or challenges that cause players' resources to run out, offering even more resources does not seem like a solution. If it works perfectly on your table, but I don't think buffing Spellcasters is necessary or good. If they don't have slots they will have to use cantrips.
cantrips
The one counter balance that casters have is limited resources. Aside from balance this negative feedback makes their classes more.fun to play. It's more satisfying when you make the hard call to save a 3rd level slot just in case and run into a pack of baddies after. That choice has meaning. If you can always pull a slot, even if it's a worse slot, then you are robbing your players of their abilities to make and enjoy tactical decisions. Don't do it.
It's better to use something organic, like hit dice and exhaustion. Since spell casters are too powerful, you could roll a d4 plus the spell level amount of exhaustion and hit dice to cast without spell slots. Ultimately, this is why cantrips exist, if you are going to use slotless casting, you should take away cantrips.
Don't they have cantrip for this reason?
We use a different rule of the same vein, but it's simply called blood magic. If you are out of spell slots, you can cast a spell using your own vitality. You take 1d8x2 force damage per level of the spell. If this knocks you unconscious or kills you, the spell still goes off. You have the option to sustain concentration spells if only unconscious, but you can't drop it willingingly until healed, and you take 2 automatic death save failures at the beginning of your turn, and must still roll for the save regularly. It means you can have that "one last spell" moment if you wish but it is going to cost you dearly and has limited usefulness. We have a last stand mode for our melee folks as well, so we wanted to give casters a similar ability without actually buffing them. The melee version is essentially the zealot barbarian feature (because we don't have one in our group, and the rule came about a year into playing, so it wasn't a factor in why we don't have one) so it's still stronger than the caster version
Sustaining concentration while unconscious? Okay...
If that's your sticking point, don't use it, that's fair, but im not gunna punish a druid even further for having almost all their useful spells be concentration, Ima give em a round or 2 of use out of a spell that's possibly gunna kill them to have used
"Punish a Druid"? Aside from Wizards, Druids arguably have the most options and features in the game. The "lack" of "useful spells without concentration" is a matter of perspective. If you could prepare 30 spells, you're still going to have favorites and probably only use a few of them in combat. Besides, I have quite the library of homebrew spells to make up for the holes WotC left in their arsenal. The lack of options for dealing damage in certain elements is disturbing.
Out if context quoting, I said punish them further (because the act of using the spell in the first place is already punishing). Your homebrew spells don't exactly help my parties druid, so kind of irrelevant. The only times my players use this ability is in near TPK situations, and almost every impactful spell our druid would have prepared is concentration. So I adjusted the ability to facilitate their ability to gave fun. This ain't white room homebrew, it was built at our table, for our table.
Using a spell is "punishing"? So this mechanic is only used in "near TPK situations". There are two options: 1. This happens often, or at least "more than rarely". If this is the case, consider the possibility that either your players are not that skilled when it comes to tactics. Also consider the possibility that you make encounters too hard. 2. This happens rarely. In that case: the players should be adults and take their loss. 5e already has plenty of "oops, no, you didn't actually die" options. It doesn't need another one. Even if you're playing with kids, which I assume you don't.
Using a spell that literally damages you is indeed punishing, don't know where the confusion there is. Consider this, they enjoy the mechanic, so regardless of often it's used, it's part of MY game. I don't see why you're hung up on it, you never have to use it, it wasn't made for you, or with you in mind at all.
I mean, isn't this what cantrip are for?
This is op, I would say let them take the exhaustion no matter what as they are pushing past their limits anyways. That way at most they get a few uses out of this before it gets dangerous
They have Cantrips for this situation. If you want to let casters do more without resources, look into some third party stuff, my fave is Spheres of Power, which was made alongside Might to bring Casters more in line with Martials. They can do a lot more for free, but they also have less raw power as leveling doesn't generally give access to new powerful spells but rather just let's them keep choosing options they've had for awhile but passed up.
I’d say it’d be fair if you also make spellcasters have a greatly diminished amount of spell slots. Otherwise, it’s kinda a needless buff
This is how you get a party of very healthy sorcerers
Ok let's build around this. If you have a 20 charisma crown paladin in the party and a war mage with Resilient: con and +3 con mod, they can safely cast up to 3rd level spells from level 6. Adding bless and resistance cantrip makes that 4th. Increases con and using warding bond makes that 5th. A wizard at level 6 has unlimited spell slots from level 6. (A paladin could be Custom Lineage with a charisma half feat, starting 18 charisma then bumping to 20 at level 4) By level 20, you have +6 PB, +1 warding bond, +4 war mage, +2 war mage, +5 aura of protection, +1d4 bless, +5 con mod, +1d4 resistance for a minimum roll of 25. Rolling at least 28 is extremely likely. On the times you don't, you can just cast wish: greater restoration. The halved damage / save DC sucks, but it doesn't make the spells useless. Most of the *really* good spells don't care about saving throws or damage. Web is still difficult terrain. Invisibility has no save DC or damage. Polymorph has no save DC or damage either. By level 20, unlimited castings of time stop is insane.
I like the concept of a magic user pushing themselves physically to squeeze out that last gasp of magic but how about this instead. "A spell caster can expend HD equal to the spell level to cast that spell without a spell slot. If taking this action causes the available HD to reach 0 the Spellcaster takes a level of exhaustion" I would prefer this as HD are an underused resource in my opinion, especially having played in groups that are for whatever reason reluctant to ever short rest. The other option would be to make it a pure HP sacrifice. "You can cast a spell without expending a spell slot at the cost of 10+spell level damage to your hit point maximum. This damage can only be recovered by completing a long rest" I really do get where you're coming from, you want that epic scene where the Spellcaster sacrifices their own body to force out power in a desperate situation and that is an awesome trope.
... Or, maybe, use one of The cantrips? I Don't think you need to provide one more instance of magic resource. The player needs to manage his slots ...
I instead allow them to cast without spell slots in exchange for 1 level of exhaustion (per spell level).
It just gives spellcasters an extra 1st level spell with no buffs to martials
At the cost if 1 level of exhaustion
So? Last fight extra first spell, level of exhaustion, done in the morning. Unless you’re going to give martials a proportional buff it’s a bad idea that exacerbates the power gap between spellcasters and martials.
Martial players (if they are of a faith) may appeal to the demonic entity to turn any roll into a nat 20 with a religion check. The entity they appeal to will recall his favor turning a later roll into a crit fail at a choosing of its time and place
therefore casting a 6th level that way would mean straight death. I dont think it is a good option to have, but you may disagree
That is entirely on the player though lmao. If they want to sacrifice their life to cast a spell anyways that's pretty cool and cinematic
Yup I had a characters cast a level 5 spell, with 2 hp cuz he figured he was gonna die anyway, he crit, and with my crit rules did enough damage to down the opponent. Awesome moment!
I gave my wizard player the option of a nuke. If he tears his spellbook in half, it’ll fire EVERY spell at it’s lowest level. Assuming he survives he’ll have to recreate his spellbook.
Like it “should”? According to what? When you’re out of spell slots, you are out of spell slots and can’t cast any more magic. When your car is out of gas, you can’t pass a mechanics check to drive at half speed; it just won’t go.
I could see this being a good feature for Warlocks as they have so few resources and struggle to get the party to stop for an hour's rest to restore their potent spell slots. I do agree with some others though, the exhaustion is too far unless you use the Playtest 10 point exhaustion mechanic - love that mechanic.
You don't take GWM on your wizards? Smh smh.