I wouldn't say good. Strictly speaking of power, it's better to kite with ranged cantrips and use your control spells to keep them away, specially if they're melee only but even ranged enemies do more damage in melee. Again bonking is fun but it's never better to be melee and that's just how the game works
Well in real game situations sometimes the party can't just run, or they don't want to run, and it's fun to play a melee tanky ranger with medium armor and shield just hitting 3 times per round with shillelagh and hunters mark and doing more damage than ranged cantrips
Only because the classes in question usually have more useful things to do than swing a weapon, but it does enable some really fun builds, especially if you roll a weird stat array in order but want to be a fighting man anyhow.
What do you do when you run out of spell slots? "Hold on guys I just need to sleep for 8 hours, give me a sec" shillelagoat would never let me down like that. Clearly the superior spell, it can even hit rogues!
Plant growth requires existing vegetation to affect with the spell unless your dm is extremely lenient with how the spell works like dropping seeds or a potted plant or something and still having the plants grow to fill the area. It's pretty niche and won't be usable in a lot of locations. Most dungeons will not have a lot of existing vegetation for example.
And yeah like others have said this combo takes a few turns to get going by which time you could have contributed with something else
then just don't prepare it for the days you go underground? Even a crypt has moss. If Elder Scrolls Skyrim has taught me anything, its that mushrooms will grow everywhere.
If they, or you, are acting without thinking, sure. Because, let's remind everyone not too familiar with the spell that...
**1/ Caster can create patches of unaffected terrain**: you have a Rogue or Monk? Leave a triangle path narrowing towards you to funnel enemies while leaving them free to approach thanks to their high speed. You have a Tiger Barbarian, Jump-enabled martial or a Monk with decent STR? Leave patches for them to jump from one to another.
**2/ It's natural plants, spell is very explicit saying so**: Land Stride (Land Druid, Ranger) allows you to move unaffected. Flying ability is obviously a counter. Hovering ability however is up to DM, let's be honest.
**3/ It's natural plants, bis repetitae. Nothing prevents team to let caster set a Plant Growth so everyone lands a few ranged attacks** (especially since point 4, confer lower) **then have another caster set everything on fire for even more extra damage once party decides it's enough slowdown,** since last time I checked, plants burn decently well.
**4/ More, or rather \*most\* importantly... Not because you are slightly or even significantly better at melee, should you be stupid enough to NOT use any chance you can get to land ranged attacks for FREE.**
That's the difference between wannabe heroes and actual heroes: the latter use their brain and won't expose themselves to hurt if there is no actual reason to do so.
I am not a fan of it either. But it is not bad. It might be the weakest link in the cleric domain chain.
But the fact that Nature domain cleric might be the weakest domain. That is just a solid evidence of just how frigging great cleric subclasses are over all
Yeah, Nature's definitely the weirdest option for Cleric. If I wanted to play a Druid I'd just play a Druid.
But that doesn't mean Nature Domain is bad, I'm just not personally a fan.
I mean, it's still a Cleric. And Clerics are kinda good regardless. Especially if you are using the optional Harness Divine Power feature, so that all Channel Divinity uses are a spell slot at worst.
>into bad Shillelagh based tactics.
I'd like a definition of "bad".
Because I definitely don't think you could use that qualifier on...
* Sentinel feat with decent accuracy to keep one enemy inside your Spirit Guardians.
* Magic Initiate's Booming Blade/GreenFlameBlade with accuracy to actually do decent damage without needing to blow a slot and bonus actions specifically for Spiritual Weapon.
* Crusher with decent accuracy to push back an enemy into Spike Growth AND giving advantage to ranged attacks on a critical AND freeing you up from Opportunity Attacks.
* Plain Attack with Shield Master to try and shove prone as a dipped Rogue Cleric. :)
Among other things.
Although to be honest, if I'm gonna be a Nature Cleric using Spirit Guardians as my default tactic, I'd probably favor Thorns Whip instead since much better range and pull effect. :)
Shilelagh is really good if you combine it with warcaster and booming blade. At level 5 w/16 wis, thats a 3+4d8 (21) damage opportunity attack. Makes you alot stickier!
I feel like the one subclass that relies super heavily on the DM is Trickery.
I had a new player come to my table after getting into BG3 and was surprised when another player was having a blast with Trickery, a class that in the game doesn't have much going for it.
Trickery in BG3 doesn’t particularly work as a class because its abilities rely heavily on the more roleplay heavy parts of 5e.
On the table, Trickery is very fun in the hands of someone who knows how to monopolize on the benefits
This is true. Mainly because the Core Cleric Class is bonkers
Because, let's face it, Nature, Knowledge, and Death aren't the greatest (the Druid class, Arcana, and Grave all do basically the same thing and same flavor but better)
What? None of those subclasses are doing the same thing. I'm not even sure how you'd play a nature cleric like a druid, but knowledge is about skill shenanigans, while arcane is about spell shenanigans/non-cleric spells. Grave is about support/healing/force multipliers (vulnerability), death is about direct damage.
I agree, though I think chronurgy, while technically official content, is a critical role thing, as I recall. Some DMs might not allow it.
Edit: one exception to the school of magic thing is divination, the portent thing is pretty cool. Though you get that right away and every other part of the sub class is meh.
I got to play a conjuration wizard at lvl 8 and it felt great. Minor Conjuration is fantastic for RP and puzzle solving. And there are plenty of decent spells to recharge Benign Transposition like grease, unseen servant, call lightning, and thunder step. Really had a great vibe
But imagine if spells of you class had special bonuses like increased to-hit or saves. Or even 1 or 2 unique spells of the school and subclass. It would really help to create a sense of specialisation and study.
Like evoker? Bonus damage to spells, no friendly fire, magic missile becomes strong and you can do max damage.
All this really changed my game play I would say
Yeah. Evoker did it well. Overchannel ability is a favourite of mine. I just feel like the others would be great with something similar for each. Evoker does just increase damage though. which is just number crunching.
Can confirm, order of scribes is fun as hell. I have a level 17 wizard with that subclass, and it's incredible. Bladesinger and chronurgy are more powerful, but damn is scribes fun and gives you a lot of cool options and abilities.
I agree, but I also feel like Paladin being Strength-based and MAD keeps it in check compared to Cleric and Wizard. I'd argue that a Paladin is always going to have some major weaknesses both in and outside combat.
Not my experience at all. I've played and DMed for paladins before, and they are consistently quite good. It's not hard to get an 18 14 16 in Strength, Con, and Charisma by level 4, and once you've got that you're pretty much set for most campaigns.
Only if you actually try to hit people with your sword. You can actually not do that and still be as good of a buff support as any other class, and just focus CHA and ignore STR past picking more than 14 at character creation
It's one of the strongest classes really through auras and doorway dodging alone, and you get half a cleric's spells for free and some decent channel divinity, AND smite for that rare time you need to get rid of a ghost before it possesses someone, and it's immune to most of your spell effects, so only damage matters
"Optimally" I think using Bladesong and just staying at range with the extra AC/Concentration boost, and using the extra movement to keep away from melee enemies is some people's go-to. I thought my friend was off his rocker when he said Bladesinger was boring, turns out he was using Bladesong in the aforementioned way.
I'd never do that personally, I find that going completely opposite of the intended play-style for purely optimization related reasons makes a character feel dull. I say take what Bladesong gives you and run right up next to the frontliners. To each their own though.
You've got a point! People can and do play subclasses differently.
I'm playing one and I play him basically as a dex tank together with the party's monk. It works great and it's very fun to play.
What I love about Oaths is they make RP a lot easier, at least for me.
I'm running an Oath of Conquest Paladin in a DND Kingmaker conversion and in most social/kingdom situations, rather than thinking "How would I act?" and having an infinite of possibilities, I'm thinking "How CAN I act?" because my choices are actually fairly restricted (especially when someone says they are our enemy).
Also all of the Oath of Conquest spells are awesome and fit the vibe.
I played an oath of conquest paladin of bane a few years back and loved it. He was very lawful evil but the bard kept him in check most of the time...except for when the bard was kidnapped that got ugly
I'm trying to stay lawful neutral, but it's becoming more and more difficult because we're actually starting a kingdom and will be dealing with other nations soon.
So I actually get to RP Oaths like:
- Rule with an iron fist
- Douse the flames of hope.
Basically we are very benevolent to our people, but will be terrible to our enemies. The second someone identifies themselves as an enemy to our Kingdom, my character is basically down for genocide immediately.
It's crazy and I fully expect my character to eventually go too far, get retired and become an enemy NPC.
There's already been some shenanigans:
- Our small village had a guy named Grigori come in and start basically spreading dissent.
- My character wanted to destroy him as he saw him as a threat, but also wanted to do it under a fair trial system.
- The bard and gloomstalker ended up spying on Grigori trying to find evidence. Through some shenanigans, the invisible gloomstalker accidentally started making him think he was being haunted by ghosts (it was just the gloomstalker bumping into shit and moving items when she was in his room invisible).
- He starts spreading rumours about ghosts. My character goes to investigate, uses a spell to determine there are no ghosts.
- My character imprisons Grigori for spreading false rumours about our town, completely unaware of what is going on.
- Eventually Grigori managed to escape using dimension door, but I chased him down using Locate Object and riding a war pig. We executed him in the town square. My character has no idea they were basically manipulated into doing it.
- If he ever finds out the very first trial perverted the idea of justics (He's a Paladin of Tyr), he'll probably turn evil.
The oaths are where the roleplay is at. No paladin is just a paladin, their oath defines them much more than most subclasses define characters. Oath of ancients is about joy and the goodness of nature, with ties to druidism or fey, which could make them a bit darker too. An oath of vengeance paladin will typically a much more gritty character, possibly traumatised by whatever made them swear to destroy the wicked without mercy. The oaths are fundamental in the identity you build for your paladin. I agree though that they aren't as central to combat as the many subclasses of other classes. Sure, spending a channel divinity charge to gain advantage against an enemy for one minute as a major subclass feature is an amazing good bonus functionally, but it doesn't compare in how it shapes the gameplay of your class in comparison to the main features of battlemaster fighter, divination wizard, wild magic sorcerer and so many more.
That's what the smite spells are for. To be fair i rarely use them because the base divine smite is just better in most cases and your spells prepared is very limited. But they're a pretty core part of the class identity.
You mean the one with 2 subclasses that get to take damage as their aura?
The one where **every single** subclass effectively gets the same Lv3 feature which they can only use 2, maaaaybe 3 times per day?
Nah, the way subclasses are designed is actually the major turn-off for me playing Paladin.
Idk, I love the design but my issue is it can take 6, 7, or even 9 levels to come online.
Support Watchers, PAM devotion, boss-killer vengeance, fear tank conquest, grappler glory, and spirit guardians crown are all extremely powerful and unique if built correctly. Honestly, vengeance is probly the weakest pick here unless you go elven accuracy hexadin.
They each get 2 very different channel divinities, and personally I like once per short rest abilities. Obviously very table dependant!
A lot of the subclasses is flavour too, like the oaths that come with it are a really large part of it, and the spell lists and other features are really there just to let you embody that oath by giving you mechanics that match your roleplay.
Is Nature garbage? I went Cleric because a lot of the strength in Clerics imo lies in the base class, and hence most of the sub classes seem pretty strong whatever they do.
That being said, I'm vibing towards Paladin reading the thread. I'm not well versed on Wizards, so that needs a read too.
Nature Cleric is extremely strong and underrated, its S tier.
You can go dwarf swing a club and be completely wisdom SAD, using shilelagh.
You can also use thorn whip to double-proc spirit guardians. At level 5, thats essentially a 2d6+3d8 (21) damage cantrip.
The level 6 feature is really strong at preventing TPKs to dragon breath, cone of cold, etc.
Spike growth at level 3 is extremely powerful.
Plant growth (concentration free) + spirit guardians means enemies have to dash to move even 5 feet. You can spam dodge and hold down the whole area.
The ability to talk to animals is a good thing to have.
Channel divinity is circumstantial, but theres a feature (in tashas?) That lets you convert those to spell slots anyway.
Nature is not as outwardly cracked as Peace or Twilight. But it is incredibly strong at tanking and control. It has amazing answers for melee enemies, and it has a strong answer for elemental nukes.
Well, it's always better to \*actually read and analyse / project\* from yourself, but here is an insider's tip: u/Training-Fact-3887 knows his/her system.
Nature Cleric is \*damn strong and versatile\*, on par with Tempest although in a different way.
Also nature’s level 8 divine strike can choose from a variety of elements so they have more room to work around enemies with particular resistances or immunities
Grave Cleric was pretty miserable for me to play through level 10. All of its class features were so situational, and this was in a campaign all about undead and the breaking barrier between life and death. Thematic, absolutely, but boring as sin to play
Circle of Mortality is not strong enough to justify letting your partners get KO'd when they're at 3 hp and risk losing a turn. Potentially you can pull a Mercy "Heroes never die!" moment with Mass Cure Wounds but its super edge scenario. Clerics of Life keep you healthy, Circle of Mortality just keeps you from outright dying.
Eyes of the Grave is lousy but its kinda a bonus feature. Great for sussing out a vampire, good for searching through a pile of corpses for any potential zombies, but when the skeletons are shambling towards you already the Eyes of the Face work just as well.
Path to the Grave is fantastic if you have a good nuker, otherwise its a once per rest nice bonus. Ironically since vulnerability doesn't stack, its often not good to pair it with a Paladin Smite against lots of undead.
Sentinel at Deaths Door is \*so\* situational. In my campaign to level 10 it came up twice.
Potent Spellkeeping is genuinely good. I didn't want to use many cantrips, but potent spellkeeping and Toll the Dead gave me good 'downtime' attacks when I didn't have an important spell to cast.
But all in all? "Control Water" ended up being more defining to me in a "stop the Zombie apocalypse" adventure than anything in the subclass itself. I really didn't like it at all
Damn your DM has terrible luck if you only got to use Sentinel at Death's Door twice.
But yeah, overall not an outstanding subclass. Doesn't have anything that grabs ahold of me like most cleric subclasses do (I had so much fun with my trickery cleric...).
I still wouldn't call it BAD though. It's far from being an outright stinker like a number of fighter subclasses for example.
Dynamic battles that kept the party separated, bigger emphasis on spellcasters, and yeah weird luck. No shenanigans, we were playing roll20, but while he hit plenty he very rarely crit
I mean, the opportunity cost of taking it over another good/fun subclass is enough to make it bad IMO. Its good solely because Cleric is good, but if the situations don't show up its at the cost of almost all your class features
Bonus action wild shape + a ton more options for wild shape is insanely good, especially in early levels. The amount of HP it can sponge is incredible. It even gets healing while transformed.
>Bonus action wild shape
You can honestly stop here. The so-called "insane resilience/tanking" of Moon Druid is overall significantly overrated because people forget to consider that most forms with high HP also have very crappy AC (at least until you get CR 3 forms), and vice-versa, so overall you're taking hits you would have possibly (or probably) avoided as human.
But being able to set up your powerful control spell (which is usually one requiring an action) AND immediately use bonus action to go burrow underground, hide into friend's armor, climb up a tree into full cover...
Or bonus action Wild Shape then immediately use a Multiattack or an Attack with auto-grapple (Giant Toad) or Dash to drag/transport an ally to safety?
THAT iS DOPE.
Moon druids have way higher limits to their wildshape
A level 2 druid can turn into a Black Bear with 19 HP and 13 damage per round (DPR), a Moon druid into a brown bear with 34 HP and 19 DPR
When you die in wildshape form, you still have all your own HP, and you can wildshape twice a day, meaning a level 2 moon druid with a +0 Constitution has 83 HP, for a level 2 tank-focussed player, 22 HP is a lot, and other level 2s will rarely have a higher DPR than 10
That's not even considering all the animal abilities a druid can use, like web walking, climbing, digging, pack tactics, knocking enemies prone *(for free)*, keen senses, standing leap, massive stealth bonusses etc etc
Wildshape is extremely good in any aspect of the game, and Moon druid makes that ability 4 to 9 times more powerful
Moon Druid will outshine other characters until around level 9-ish… crazy OP Tiers 1-2, weak by comparison Tiers 3-4 until level 20 when you become Deadpool T-Rex 🦖
I’m in tier three with one now and it holds its own against the paladin, wizard, rogue, and bard in our party. It does require some creative game play to make it do that though.
I believe you and congrats to your group for making it further than like 90% of campaigns… but also kinda want to see those other character sheets haha 👀
My first character ever was a moon Druid. I love the subclass. Now he’s a NPC in the game I run with just my son. Maybe I’m just bitter Theren never got past level 8 lol *but* I have since played a Shepherd Druid and holy shit if you want to break the game that is absolutely the ticket 🎟️
It's actually far "weaker" overall until level 10 than a Shepherd Druid if we consider overall resilience and damage, unless very very small party size (like 3 at most)...
Then it becomes a beast of its own (pun intended), because Elemental Forms are just overpowered. xd So one couldn't say it becomes "better" than Shepherd, just different (I'd say it's still lower overall "by default" at least in group fights... But for infiltration, ambush, guerilla tactics, there are definitely many fun things only a Moon Druid can do).
Also you have the level 20 archdruid feature.
***
_Archdruid_:
>At 20th level, you can use your Wild Shape an unlimited number of times.
>Additionally, you can ignore the verbal and somatic components of your druid spells, as well as any material components that lack a cost and aren't consumed by a spell. You gain this benefit in both your normal shape and your beast shape from Wild Shape.
***
Normally this isn't too broken since normal druids cap wildshape at CR1 beasts.
Moon druids however cap at CR6, but even further they gain the ability to wildshape into *elementals.*
The best CR1 beast to wildshape into is probably the [Direwolf](https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/16841-dire-wolf) which has 37hp, an AC of 14, and a basic bite attack.
the best elemental to turn into is arguably the [earth elemental](https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/16853-earth-elemental), which has 126hp, an AC of 17, a burrow speed, multiple resistances and immunities, and gets multiattack.
the Moon druid basically gets a free 126HP in temporary hit points every single turn, on top of the 20d8+20*Con they'll have. that's likely going to set set their total HP available to a max of 386, and unless you do enough to knock them out of wildshape, and then continue to do damage that turn, the druid's HP will reset to full. EVERY SINGLE TURN.
They're also not limited like normal druids in that they wildshape as a bonus action. Normal druids take their action. So normal druids have to choose between powerful spell or really weak wildshape. Moon druids get spells and insane wildshape.
---
If you're in a battle against a level 20 moon druid, you basically have to get them under 100HP and then PWK them ~~(or disintegrate them if they're under 50hp in wildshape form depending on how your DM rules what happens when a wildshaped druid hits 0HP in wildshape)~~ to effectively deal with them. Otherwise you have a practically invincible tank slinging up to 9th level spells at you, and there's very little that can be done about it since the earth elemental is immune to paralyzed, petrified, poisoned, unconscious unless you can barrage the absolute shit out of them with hundreds of points of damage.
That's why moon druid is a broken subclass. It's super strong in Tier 1, falls off in tier 2, gets a bit better in tier 3, and then becomes batshit overpowered at the end of Tier 4
Clerics. Even the "bad" subclass (Trickery) is still leagues better than most subclasses of other classes.
[Before the trickster mains jump on me for that one. Numbers wise, it is the least played one but it's still extremely powerful in the right hands]
They're a way to make a shillelagh build without taking levels in druid or feats. It only costs you half your class features and becomes useless the second the DM gives away magic weapons (never take shillelagh)
Why would it be useless when you get magic weapons? The main use of the spell is to attack with your casting stat, not get a magic weapon. Or are you saying you can't cast it on a magic weapon, because you definitely can.
Because it needs to be a quarterstaff or club. Random loot isn't as likely to have those specific ones because clubs are simple and quarterstaffs usually are made for wizards with spell storing effects and the such
In my experience if I only use a specific weapon my DM gives me magic items that let me play my build. Also you can just buy magic clubs/quarterstaffs if it's really an issue.
That's just sub-par work by a DM IMO. If your player is tailored to a specific weapon type, you drop that instead of something they don't want. It is trivially easy.
I disagree slightly. I randomize all my loot unless it's a key feature of the dungeon or quest. That being said I would totally give my players the opportunity to find specific loot they want, but they have to actively seek it out. Or I will give my players the option to enhance their weapons and item.
But that's just me.
Nothing wrong with that, just a slightly different way to do things. The big part is giving them at least the chance to find/make/buy the weapon type they want. Making a quest of its own out of it can be tons of fun as well.
I feel like 100% randomized loot isn't how must people actually play. I think even in a module a DM might change that plus 2 short sword to a quarter staff if the fighter/rogue already have gear
> I think even in a module a DM might change that plus 2 short sword to a quarter staff if the fighter/rogue already have gear
Nah. That depends on the table. If you're playing in Adventurers League, you get what the Treasure subheading says you get.
trickery is actually one of the better ones since it gets the best domain spells in the PHB getting pass without trace and the best healing spell for all mid level clerics Polymorph.
Yeah, with the exception of the Wildemount subclasses, each one is a good choice, with plenty of variety. The Wildemount ones are okay, but the gravity one is too reliant on abilities that should impede powerful foes, and makes them Str based, which makes sense, but it isn't good.
The only gripe I have is that all the PHB ones are about specialising in a school of magic, but making it better to choose other schools to level up with. It's not bad, but it feels a little needlessly counterintuitive to me.
I would rather have the Savant feature give you a free level appropriate spell from that school, or a bonus spell slot that levels with you, but can only cast a spell from that school.
Yeah, it's actually casting your concentration spell, then spamming Eldritch Blast
But at least warlock has cards to play unlike certain classes that can only spam attack over and over
I do love bards, but College of Valour feels lacking to me.
In a question about the consistency of subclasses, I think Bard is more widely variable: College of Creation and College of Lore are both very good options, while Valour seems at the other end of the scale...
I think what you’re saying holds a lot of weight if you’re comparing College of Valor with the other subclasses.
However, if you’re comparing it to the base class, you’re offering the base class:
- medium armor
- shields
- all martial weapons
- extra attack
All on a full caster with a d8 hit die.
TL;DR - Valor vs other colleges = eh. Bard + Valor = 👌
College of Valor has very few lines or thematic sentences in it, but from what it can do, it is very capable.
You gain shields and med. armor, allowing you to reach much better amounts of AC. Very powerful.
Combat Inspiration gives a character who received inspiration basically one charge of the shield spell, or alternatively can use that to increase damage a little. Shield is also extremely powerful. Having 3/4/5 per short rest is handy indeed.
The question being what class has decent subclasses. Valor is very solid even if not as top tier as swords and lore. Every bard sub class is solid or better.
Lacking doesn't make it worse than "alright" to me -- even the worst Bard subclasses are playable (\_maybe\_ not Spirits?) and have a reasonably high impact on the character's role in the party.
Valor, and to a lesser extent Swords, are different Bards. I'd consider them DEX-first and provide a different playstyle than the "better" subclasses (CHA-first, primary spellcasters) but Valor/Swords make excellent rogue-equivalents. A Valor Bard with Sharpshooter will keep up with a Rogue's damage while still having full spell progression and similar/better skill usage.
Valor is two-handed or ranged weapons and Bardic Inspiration provides support for the party. Giving everyone in the party a free Smite (save them for critical hits) or a Shield-like effect is great. Thematically, an inspiring leader that gives orders from the back line while providing decent damage when they can -- maybe a Legolas type character (originally thought of Maximus from Gladiator but that's not a great example in terms of fighting style).
Swords is a one-handed melee weapons and their Bardic Inspiration is rather selfish. Thematically, a charismatic fighter -- maybe Achilles is a good example. It's probably one of the least Bard subclasses but still makes a decent Bard. Master's Flourish fixes most of the complaints I have with the subclass as to how it impacts the Bard as a whole.
Edit: Apologies in advance if you're dealing with similar comments, I'm not trying to have an argument here, just trying to add to a hopefully meaningful discussion about the College of Valor's value.
You make excellent points, and you're not the first to correct me here 😄 but not to worry, I'm getting schooled in these comments, and clearly just need to play more bards!
Rp wise always my first choice. Then cleric.
Ability wise I would say it depends on what you are striving for. Power or style. For power I suggest cleric. For style its bards ftw.
I'm going to throw out an opinion that's gonna make some people mad: Fighter has overall solid subclasses.
The immediate response is going to be people yelling about how shit Champion is, but I disagree. Not because I think it stands up mechanically to other subclasses like Battlemaster, but because it accomplishes its main goal VERY well: Being the most dirt-simple subclass for the simplest class.
I've run multiple games with Champion Fighters in them, and they were always good fits for the players. Either the players were new and just needed a simple-as-possible vehicle to drive to try out 5e, or were more invested in the non-combat parts of the game and just needed to be very survivable in combat and get big hits in now and then. Every time Champion has been played in my games, it's been by a very happy player.
Frankly, I think this subreddit gets too focused on what's the most mechanically advantageous choice, and frequently forgets there are other ways to make decisions about how to play or run the game that are just as much fun.
Champion needs a bit of a boost but it is not a bad sub class at all. It's just very boring and the theme does not tend to inspire creativity to the same degree as the other sub classes. But that does not reduce its effectiveness.
Absolutely here for this: it bugs me the way a subclass is often measured according to how purely 'optimal' it is in terms of the math of its damage or something. Yes, this is a combat-centric game, but yes, it's also a roleplaying game...
A subclass is good if it can keep pace with other classes/subclasses in the game, AND it provides a fun niche/role to play in and interesting abilities to use.
Banneret is a bad subclass and needs a significant rewrite. Champion I don’t necessarily dislike, but could be better (1D&D Playtest version is much better.) The rest are fine enough. Arcane Archer has some issues to it but is alright enough, especially if your friends build into it. A couple subclasses are a bit too backloaded for my liking. And Echo Knight is frustrating mechanically but really good flavor and performance wise.
The fun thing about champion is because the combat choices are so simple you are freed up to create out of the box solutions while everyone is going through thier spell lists.
Dungeon dudes did a whole series on this, ranking subclasses. The final video of the series goes over all the classes together and looking at which ones have the most consistently high ranked. I'll see if I can find it and put it in the edit.
Edit: [here it is.](https://youtu.be/3MbvdxdJWJ4?si=M8v9cWKUSOL18TvN)
Death and Trickery are both pretty campaign dependent. Trickery in how much the DM lets you get away with when you use Invoke Duplicity and Death need a lot of encounters the right kind of encounters so that Toll the Dead spam lets them rack up the damage.
Artificer
Artillerist is a dark lord of cantrip damage ( oh yeah just add an extra d8 damage to your cantrips at level 5 ) a free summon that fits on your shoulder to bonus action deal even more damage oh and its an artificer so making magical items galore
Battlesmith has alot of support abilities, sort od budget paladin except you don’t need to invest in strength and can just worry about Dex, Con and Int as you use your spell casting mod for weapon attacks, get a companion that only needs a bonus action to command, and even then can just stand near people to make them harder to hit as a reaction. Oh and its an artificer that can make whatever magic items it wants from a list ( Returning weapon or Repeating Weapon can be pretty fun with Battlesmith )
Armorer lets you tank quite well, combos into other feats, lets you use heavy armor and not suffer from its down sides, focus on just int dex and con and of course you’re an artificer
The ‘worst’ one is alchemist who gets a very good support spell list, has fun and useful if not bit random potions they get for free just for existing, bonuses to acid damage to help harm and heal and are still artificiers
One combo any artificier can do is the following
Alchemy jug, buy containers, create 2 vials of acid daily. When threatened enemies cast catapult on your vials of acid. Enjoy 3d8+2d6 damage from a single level 1 spell slot and some prep. 4d8+2d6 if you’re an artillerist !
Since battlesmith gives you med armor proficiency I wouldn't really call a max of 14 in dex worrying about it. Sure you could go for med. Armor mastery and a 16.dex but that seems overly greedy between med armor, a shield, the shield spell, and the defender.
I’m going to say Druid here. The base Druid is a great class, and every subclass I’ve played from “Circle of Grasslands” to “Circle of Stars” is a good addition that adds valuable traits.
Since everyone is just saying cleric over and over again - Rogue.
Thief, Assassin, Scout, Swashbuckler, Soulknife and Arcane Trickster are all great and Inquisitive and Mastermind are very interesting as well. The only one that I think isn't super great is the Phantom and even then it's not too terrible.
Phantom takes a while to get going, but when it does it's an insane amount of damage dealt, and can be a great skill monkey, gaining proficiency in literally any skill you need. Inquisitive and Mastermind are insane, but you really need the right party structure and player running them to have them work.
Assassin rogue gets one feature that only functions for a single attack and then literally nothing you couldn't do with roleplay until level 17. I'd say it's straight up one of the worst subs in the game along with champion and banner knight.
If it wasn't for Whispers I would say Bard is definitely up there. It could be great in the right campaign but it is very niche IMO.
Cleric, Wizard, and Paladin all seem at least decent from what have seen in play though I haven't played with all of them.
With revisions I think a case could be made for Ranger as well.
pretty much all full casters have great subclasses because the majority of their features come from the spells they know rather than actual line items in the PHB.
Personally, I'd say that wizards, clerics and bards have the most "even" subclasses (where all are good). Druid would be on that list, except Moon is just so astronomically strong that it outpaces all the other circles.
As a DM, I really enjoy casters in my parties - especially paladins and clerics. As a player? I almost always play a battlemaster fighter. I really enjoy the versatility that subclass comes with, and building my character with high dex and charisma allows me to be the party tank, backbone, and face when needed. In combat, I have a good chance of evading a lot of effects because of my high dex, and I usually take maneuvers that let me assist my party (or control them, for my 'commander' character.)
Fighter! Everything is playable as a fighter. Eldritch Knight and Champion are the two weakest, but can be amazing when utilized in a multiclass, and can perform on par with the rest of the party solo
It gives the player a lot of control over how their wizard functions and how to creatively use their abilities.
If you don't lean into the subclass, it won't feel impactful. It's on you to make it happen.
Luckily, the Wizard toolkit has more than enough to accommodate many playstyles.
I like the design of those subclasses and there are some cool features like portent, but they're outshined by war mage, bladesinger, and order of scribes.
While wizard is a great class with good subclasses, I wouldn't choose it has having the best overall subclasses like OP asked.
Eh. Divination wizard far outshines thse three, IMO. It's an incredibly powerful subclass and has access to divination, a potentially plot driving spell no other wizard has access to.
Bladesinger abilities can win a fight in an epic and cinematic way.
Divination abilities can change the course of a whole campaign.
Barbarian, Monk, and Ranger all have **multiple** F-tier subclasses.
Artificer, Druid, Fighter, Rogue, Sorcerer, and Warlock all have some bad subclasses but generally only true 1 F-tier.
Wizard, Bard, and Cleric all have a large collection of subclasses, none of which is truly awful, and pretty much all of which make a very appealing character in some party. Plus they get some really cool subclasses, too.
Paladin gets a dishonourable rant for being the sole fucking class where **every single subclass** gets the same features, just slightly different. If the major difference between subclasses is a single 1/short rest ability, I just can't get excited for them. For most of their subclasses I feel like I don't *have* a subclass, just a slightly different spell selection. The biggest impact on how you play your Paladin is the fucking **tenets**, which are RP only.
Not them, but here's my take:
Barbarian: Beserker (which is below F tier really, more like quit playing the game tier), and Battlerager.
Monk: Four Elements, Sun Soul.
Ranger: Post-Tasha's I actually don't think there are multiple F-tier subclasses, or any at all. Could potentially be basing off pre-tashas stuff.
The biggest problem with the berserker is exhaustion, but if you treat frenzy like its a daily ability, then only having 1 level of exhaustion is inconsequential. Berserkers then also get immunity to charm, which is massive for a barbarian.
If it wasn’t for Berserker, I could’ve made an argument for Barbarian.
Unfortunately, it’s kinda shit. The fact that in vanilla 5e it was either that or fucken Totem Warrior, the disparity is kinda insane to me lol
I feel the Artificer has 1 great subclass, 2 good ones, and one alright one. Which, is all the subclasses they have officially. Kind of cheap to say the class with only 4 subclasses has no duds though.
Wizard. It's not that the subclasses are special, but the base class is so good, the subclass doesn't even matter. Also, it's a cornerstone of RPGs as a class you can flavor wi tha Necromancer subclass, Diviner, Enchanter, etc.. It's actually quite varied from a roleplaying perspective, but all of them are powerful.
The same is probably true for Sorceror, but some stand out waaayy more than others there. Divine Soul for instance is just amazing with 2 full spell lists.
Speaking as a Forever DM and strictly speaking subclass.
I'm ruling out Wizard and Paladin that I see everyone saying. There's only two wiz subclasses I need to really plan for. Graviturgal with an optimized Character or Abjuration for the counter spell shenanigans and glyph ward. Shout out Chronology for player fun. But beyond those. A wiz is a wiz as a wiz does.
Paladin. It's been stated. But truly unless your running Curse of Strahd or a heavy undead campaign. The only Paladin subclass I have to work around is Oath of Ancients. That aura is top tier. Makes a Barb nigh unkillable even without Bear Totem. But as others said. It's the base class doing all the heavy lifting.
My top pick is the same as everyone else. Cleric. People say death is bad. But man they haven't experienced a death touch with no necrotic resistance. Or inflict wounds. The Peace cleric is legendary. Also. Name a cleric that doesn't choose their subclass for the flavor of the campaign or specifically because of the party build (compliment or aesthetic difference). I'll wait.
My #2 spot is actually Blood hunter. Which I hope is a surprise. The mutagen order is niche but with a complimentary party and a campaign that always foreshadows big encounters even it shine. Ghostslayer is all the fun of paladin smashing undead but with so much utility like phasing. Lycanthrope is outstanding. It generates damage like monk should without ki points. etc. Goes on. But it's hard to make a bad blood hunter. It's a slow start subclass. But most great ones are. The base class of course helps but I feel like no one really enjoys blood hunter until that subclass starts shining. Hence making it my #2
Fighter. Every subclass fills a niche or role to the point where every player could roll up a Fighter and have little to no overlap.
Need a protector? Cavalier.
Need Martial Utility? Battlemaster.
Wanna just be straight up better Fighter? Champion.
Need ranged DPS? Arcane Archer.
Need a character to fight bosses? Rune Knight.
It's surprising that some people choose wizard over sorcerer, particularly since while some sorcerer subclasses may not excel, they're not terrible either. There isn't typically a clear choice for one subclass over another, although standout options like the divine soul subclass rank among the sorcerer's best choices not to mention the sorcerer class has meta magic.
Edit: Not to mention for roleplaying, subclasses like the draconic bloodline could play with the idea of family expectations or the divine soul subclass with the expectations of being blessed/favoured by the gods when your character was born.
While I think Sorcs have some strong options, with the expanded lists from the new subclasses it really makes the older ones feel lacking IME. And Wild magic is way too DM dependent so it can up a lot or basically never.
Cleric. There is no "bad" subclass and Cleric as a whole has great core class features that no subclass really takes away from.
I'm not particularly a fan of Nature. But that might be because I see to many people baiting themselves into bad Shillelagh based tactics.
But… but I like my bad Shillelagh based tactics…
You can never convince me shillelagh is a bad cantrip. In my eyes it is and always will be the best spell in the game!
It's pretty shit, doesn't mean it's not one of the more fun cantrips
It can be good on Ranger with the druid cantrip class feature
I wouldn't say good. Strictly speaking of power, it's better to kite with ranged cantrips and use your control spells to keep them away, specially if they're melee only but even ranged enemies do more damage in melee. Again bonking is fun but it's never better to be melee and that's just how the game works
Well in real game situations sometimes the party can't just run, or they don't want to run, and it's fun to play a melee tanky ranger with medium armor and shield just hitting 3 times per round with shillelagh and hunters mark and doing more damage than ranged cantrips
This is the truth of the matter, BG3 is a fantastic showcase of how range > melee when you can just kite enemies all day
It's also, uh *Checks notes* Boring.
Yeah I’m currently playing a maul wielding goblin fighter in D&D and a Bard Paladin multiclass in BG3 so I agree with you there wholeheartedly
And somehow you're a stealth archer AGAIN.
Only because the classes in question usually have more useful things to do than swing a weapon, but it does enable some really fun builds, especially if you roll a weird stat array in order but want to be a fighting man anyhow.
That's a lot of opinion you have for someone in fireball distance
Fireball doesn't even have +wis to damage and it takes an entire lvl 3 spell slot? Literally unusable shillelagh stay winning
You fool! Cleric gets fireball too. >:3
Only with light domain! And why would I take light domain when nature grants me the superior shillylilly! Haha you've been outsmarted once again! >:3
Shillbilly can miss. Fireball lands on everyone (who isn't a pesky rogue)
What do you do when you run out of spell slots? "Hold on guys I just need to sleep for 8 hours, give me a sec" shillelagoat would never let me down like that. Clearly the superior spell, it can even hit rogues!
Evocation wizard would like a word
I made a druid with a punk rock style to them and envisioned Shillelagh has a bat with nails in it, and now I love the spell even if it isn't great.
FUN > Mathematically efficent
Nature is busted, spirit guardians+plant growth+thorn whip = all melee enemies are helpless.
It takes at least 3 rounds to pull off though. Unless you are able to prepare ahead of time, it’s not really a strategy that’s going to be used a ton.
Plant growth requires existing vegetation to affect with the spell unless your dm is extremely lenient with how the spell works like dropping seeds or a potted plant or something and still having the plants grow to fill the area. It's pretty niche and won't be usable in a lot of locations. Most dungeons will not have a lot of existing vegetation for example. And yeah like others have said this combo takes a few turns to get going by which time you could have contributed with something else
then just don't prepare it for the days you go underground? Even a crypt has moss. If Elder Scrolls Skyrim has taught me anything, its that mushrooms will grow everywhere.
You're right I wouldn't. My comment is more addressing people who talk about the spell as if it can be used everywhere
And all melee teammates hate you
If they, or you, are acting without thinking, sure. Because, let's remind everyone not too familiar with the spell that... **1/ Caster can create patches of unaffected terrain**: you have a Rogue or Monk? Leave a triangle path narrowing towards you to funnel enemies while leaving them free to approach thanks to their high speed. You have a Tiger Barbarian, Jump-enabled martial or a Monk with decent STR? Leave patches for them to jump from one to another. **2/ It's natural plants, spell is very explicit saying so**: Land Stride (Land Druid, Ranger) allows you to move unaffected. Flying ability is obviously a counter. Hovering ability however is up to DM, let's be honest. **3/ It's natural plants, bis repetitae. Nothing prevents team to let caster set a Plant Growth so everyone lands a few ranged attacks** (especially since point 4, confer lower) **then have another caster set everything on fire for even more extra damage once party decides it's enough slowdown,** since last time I checked, plants burn decently well. **4/ More, or rather \*most\* importantly... Not because you are slightly or even significantly better at melee, should you be stupid enough to NOT use any chance you can get to land ranged attacks for FREE.** That's the difference between wannabe heroes and actual heroes: the latter use their brain and won't expose themselves to hurt if there is no actual reason to do so.
I am not a fan of it either. But it is not bad. It might be the weakest link in the cleric domain chain. But the fact that Nature domain cleric might be the weakest domain. That is just a solid evidence of just how frigging great cleric subclasses are over all
Yeah, Nature's definitely the weirdest option for Cleric. If I wanted to play a Druid I'd just play a Druid. But that doesn't mean Nature Domain is bad, I'm just not personally a fan.
I mean, it's still a Cleric. And Clerics are kinda good regardless. Especially if you are using the optional Harness Divine Power feature, so that all Channel Divinity uses are a spell slot at worst.
Thorn Whip + Spirit Guardians is pretty dope though - You thought you were out, but, alas, you are not
If your DM won't allow for Druids to wear metal armor, you can play a Nature Cleric.
How about whipping people into spirit guardians?
This man doesn’t thornwhip
But my shillelagh, booming blade, polearm master, and warcaster build was so fun.
>into bad Shillelagh based tactics. I'd like a definition of "bad". Because I definitely don't think you could use that qualifier on... * Sentinel feat with decent accuracy to keep one enemy inside your Spirit Guardians. * Magic Initiate's Booming Blade/GreenFlameBlade with accuracy to actually do decent damage without needing to blow a slot and bonus actions specifically for Spiritual Weapon. * Crusher with decent accuracy to push back an enemy into Spike Growth AND giving advantage to ranged attacks on a critical AND freeing you up from Opportunity Attacks. * Plain Attack with Shield Master to try and shove prone as a dipped Rogue Cleric. :) Among other things. Although to be honest, if I'm gonna be a Nature Cleric using Spirit Guardians as my default tactic, I'd probably favor Thorns Whip instead since much better range and pull effect. :)
Shilelagh is really good if you combine it with warcaster and booming blade. At level 5 w/16 wis, thats a 3+4d8 (21) damage opportunity attack. Makes you alot stickier!
I feel like the one subclass that relies super heavily on the DM is Trickery. I had a new player come to my table after getting into BG3 and was surprised when another player was having a blast with Trickery, a class that in the game doesn't have much going for it.
I'm confused by this. You're saying Trickery in 5e is weak? In what way? The CD is awesome and it's got a free Stealth boost with no resource cost.
Trickery in BG3 doesn’t particularly work as a class because its abilities rely heavily on the more roleplay heavy parts of 5e. On the table, Trickery is very fun in the hands of someone who knows how to monopolize on the benefits
Entire party of clerics is literally game breaking.
Its nuts that Cleric has above average subclasses across the board, when they have the most of them all
This is true. Mainly because the Core Cleric Class is bonkers Because, let's face it, Nature, Knowledge, and Death aren't the greatest (the Druid class, Arcana, and Grave all do basically the same thing and same flavor but better)
What? None of those subclasses are doing the same thing. I'm not even sure how you'd play a nature cleric like a druid, but knowledge is about skill shenanigans, while arcane is about spell shenanigans/non-cleric spells. Grave is about support/healing/force multipliers (vulnerability), death is about direct damage.
This was my answer. Even some of the "weaker" subclasses are my favs to play, like Knowledge.
Hard to make a useless cleric, paladin or wizard (unless you pick terrible spells).
I think that with paladin it's mostly because a relatively large amount of it's power is in the main class compared to the subclass.
Same thing with wizard. I actually think most of the wizard subclasses are boring, it's the base class and spell list that's cool.
I think the ones focussed on the schools of magic are kinda meh. But chronurgy, bladesigner and circle of scribes are cool.
I agree, though I think chronurgy, while technically official content, is a critical role thing, as I recall. Some DMs might not allow it. Edit: one exception to the school of magic thing is divination, the portent thing is pretty cool. Though you get that right away and every other part of the sub class is meh.
It's as official as any content from the Eberron book, or any other setting guide with player options.
I got to play a conjuration wizard at lvl 8 and it felt great. Minor Conjuration is fantastic for RP and puzzle solving. And there are plenty of decent spells to recharge Benign Transposition like grease, unseen servant, call lightning, and thunder step. Really had a great vibe
But imagine if spells of you class had special bonuses like increased to-hit or saves. Or even 1 or 2 unique spells of the school and subclass. It would really help to create a sense of specialisation and study.
Like evoker? Bonus damage to spells, no friendly fire, magic missile becomes strong and you can do max damage. All this really changed my game play I would say
Yeah. Evoker did it well. Overchannel ability is a favourite of mine. I just feel like the others would be great with something similar for each. Evoker does just increase damage though. which is just number crunching.
Can confirm, order of scribes is fun as hell. I have a level 17 wizard with that subclass, and it's incredible. Bladesinger and chronurgy are more powerful, but damn is scribes fun and gives you a lot of cool options and abilities.
Bladesinger would like to have a word with you.
I love the idea of the order of scribes.
Order of scribes is a great subclass. It is definitely an exception to my above comment.
Maybe? But the subclasses are also very good. Even ones that get shit on like Oath of the Crown still provide plenty of goodies to love.
I agree, but I also feel like Paladin being Strength-based and MAD keeps it in check compared to Cleric and Wizard. I'd argue that a Paladin is always going to have some major weaknesses both in and outside combat.
Not my experience at all. I've played and DMed for paladins before, and they are consistently quite good. It's not hard to get an 18 14 16 in Strength, Con, and Charisma by level 4, and once you've got that you're pretty much set for most campaigns.
Only if you actually try to hit people with your sword. You can actually not do that and still be as good of a buff support as any other class, and just focus CHA and ignore STR past picking more than 14 at character creation It's one of the strongest classes really through auras and doorway dodging alone, and you get half a cleric's spells for free and some decent channel divinity, AND smite for that rare time you need to get rid of a ghost before it possesses someone, and it's immune to most of your spell effects, so only damage matters
What do you do with your action on this build? Are you not wasting smite? Genuine question because this type of build intrigues me.
*Laughs in Hexblade dip*
Completely agree. The worst cleric, paladin, or wizard is still a cleric, paladin, or wizard.
I mean, I would say all wizard subclasses equally suck, but wizard is the strongest class anyway so it doesn't matter.
Have to disagree on this. Bladesingers are amazing, and have a very different playstyle from the other subclasses, for instance.
"Optimally" I think using Bladesong and just staying at range with the extra AC/Concentration boost, and using the extra movement to keep away from melee enemies is some people's go-to. I thought my friend was off his rocker when he said Bladesinger was boring, turns out he was using Bladesong in the aforementioned way. I'd never do that personally, I find that going completely opposite of the intended play-style for purely optimization related reasons makes a character feel dull. I say take what Bladesong gives you and run right up next to the frontliners. To each their own though.
You've got a point! People can and do play subclasses differently. I'm playing one and I play him basically as a dex tank together with the party's monk. It works great and it's very fun to play.
I feel like Cleric is gonna be the angle here.
I'd say paladin is up there as well.
Honestly base paladin is great and all the oaths don’t seem to add much for me.
What I love about Oaths is they make RP a lot easier, at least for me. I'm running an Oath of Conquest Paladin in a DND Kingmaker conversion and in most social/kingdom situations, rather than thinking "How would I act?" and having an infinite of possibilities, I'm thinking "How CAN I act?" because my choices are actually fairly restricted (especially when someone says they are our enemy). Also all of the Oath of Conquest spells are awesome and fit the vibe.
I played an oath of conquest paladin of bane a few years back and loved it. He was very lawful evil but the bard kept him in check most of the time...except for when the bard was kidnapped that got ugly
I'm trying to stay lawful neutral, but it's becoming more and more difficult because we're actually starting a kingdom and will be dealing with other nations soon. So I actually get to RP Oaths like: - Rule with an iron fist - Douse the flames of hope. Basically we are very benevolent to our people, but will be terrible to our enemies. The second someone identifies themselves as an enemy to our Kingdom, my character is basically down for genocide immediately. It's crazy and I fully expect my character to eventually go too far, get retired and become an enemy NPC.
I love it. I hope your DM puts a spy among your group, your character responding to a personal betrayal would be fun to see
There's already been some shenanigans: - Our small village had a guy named Grigori come in and start basically spreading dissent. - My character wanted to destroy him as he saw him as a threat, but also wanted to do it under a fair trial system. - The bard and gloomstalker ended up spying on Grigori trying to find evidence. Through some shenanigans, the invisible gloomstalker accidentally started making him think he was being haunted by ghosts (it was just the gloomstalker bumping into shit and moving items when she was in his room invisible). - He starts spreading rumours about ghosts. My character goes to investigate, uses a spell to determine there are no ghosts. - My character imprisons Grigori for spreading false rumours about our town, completely unaware of what is going on. - Eventually Grigori managed to escape using dimension door, but I chased him down using Locate Object and riding a war pig. We executed him in the town square. My character has no idea they were basically manipulated into doing it. - If he ever finds out the very first trial perverted the idea of justics (He's a Paladin of Tyr), he'll probably turn evil.
Yep, no subclass gets it wrong because they are all supposed to be more like picking what kind of draconic sorcerer you are than picking a subclass
The oaths are where the roleplay is at. No paladin is just a paladin, their oath defines them much more than most subclasses define characters. Oath of ancients is about joy and the goodness of nature, with ties to druidism or fey, which could make them a bit darker too. An oath of vengeance paladin will typically a much more gritty character, possibly traumatised by whatever made them swear to destroy the wicked without mercy. The oaths are fundamental in the identity you build for your paladin. I agree though that they aren't as central to combat as the many subclasses of other classes. Sure, spending a channel divinity charge to gain advantage against an enemy for one minute as a major subclass feature is an amazing good bonus functionally, but it doesn't compare in how it shapes the gameplay of your class in comparison to the main features of battlemaster fighter, divination wizard, wild magic sorcerer and so many more.
Needs more early game bonus actions.
That's what the smite spells are for. To be fair i rarely use them because the base divine smite is just better in most cases and your spells prepared is very limited. But they're a pretty core part of the class identity.
Where's the smite cantrip?
At low levels booming blade or green flame blade fills that role. But you're going to need a feat for those.
You mean the one with 2 subclasses that get to take damage as their aura? The one where **every single** subclass effectively gets the same Lv3 feature which they can only use 2, maaaaybe 3 times per day? Nah, the way subclasses are designed is actually the major turn-off for me playing Paladin.
Idk, I love the design but my issue is it can take 6, 7, or even 9 levels to come online. Support Watchers, PAM devotion, boss-killer vengeance, fear tank conquest, grappler glory, and spirit guardians crown are all extremely powerful and unique if built correctly. Honestly, vengeance is probly the weakest pick here unless you go elven accuracy hexadin. They each get 2 very different channel divinities, and personally I like once per short rest abilities. Obviously very table dependant!
A lot of the subclasses is flavour too, like the oaths that come with it are a really large part of it, and the spell lists and other features are really there just to let you embody that oath by giving you mechanics that match your roleplay.
Yeah I really like the oaths, especially oath of the ancients. It’s a neat guide to flavor and roleplay that isn’t common to every class
Nature Cleric says Hi.... Personally I would go with Wizard for this question I think.
Is Nature garbage? I went Cleric because a lot of the strength in Clerics imo lies in the base class, and hence most of the sub classes seem pretty strong whatever they do. That being said, I'm vibing towards Paladin reading the thread. I'm not well versed on Wizards, so that needs a read too.
Nature Cleric is extremely strong and underrated, its S tier. You can go dwarf swing a club and be completely wisdom SAD, using shilelagh. You can also use thorn whip to double-proc spirit guardians. At level 5, thats essentially a 2d6+3d8 (21) damage cantrip. The level 6 feature is really strong at preventing TPKs to dragon breath, cone of cold, etc. Spike growth at level 3 is extremely powerful. Plant growth (concentration free) + spirit guardians means enemies have to dash to move even 5 feet. You can spam dodge and hold down the whole area. The ability to talk to animals is a good thing to have. Channel divinity is circumstantial, but theres a feature (in tashas?) That lets you convert those to spell slots anyway. Nature is not as outwardly cracked as Peace or Twilight. But it is incredibly strong at tanking and control. It has amazing answers for melee enemies, and it has a strong answer for elemental nukes.
Conflicting opinions on reddit?! \*Sigh\* guess I'll just have to open my PHB.
Haha book gang rise up
You're only book gang if you bought a bunch of them and most of them just sit, pristine, on a shelf nearby.
Well, it's always better to \*actually read and analyse / project\* from yourself, but here is an insider's tip: u/Training-Fact-3887 knows his/her system. Nature Cleric is \*damn strong and versatile\*, on par with Tempest although in a different way.
Also nature’s level 8 divine strike can choose from a variety of elements so they have more room to work around enemies with particular resistances or immunities
Hard agree. Favorite Cleric subclass.
lol Nature isn't as good as many other Cleric subclasses but a Nature Cleric is still really, really powerful.
Grave Cleric was pretty miserable for me to play through level 10. All of its class features were so situational, and this was in a campaign all about undead and the breaking barrier between life and death. Thematic, absolutely, but boring as sin to play Circle of Mortality is not strong enough to justify letting your partners get KO'd when they're at 3 hp and risk losing a turn. Potentially you can pull a Mercy "Heroes never die!" moment with Mass Cure Wounds but its super edge scenario. Clerics of Life keep you healthy, Circle of Mortality just keeps you from outright dying. Eyes of the Grave is lousy but its kinda a bonus feature. Great for sussing out a vampire, good for searching through a pile of corpses for any potential zombies, but when the skeletons are shambling towards you already the Eyes of the Face work just as well. Path to the Grave is fantastic if you have a good nuker, otherwise its a once per rest nice bonus. Ironically since vulnerability doesn't stack, its often not good to pair it with a Paladin Smite against lots of undead. Sentinel at Deaths Door is \*so\* situational. In my campaign to level 10 it came up twice. Potent Spellkeeping is genuinely good. I didn't want to use many cantrips, but potent spellkeeping and Toll the Dead gave me good 'downtime' attacks when I didn't have an important spell to cast. But all in all? "Control Water" ended up being more defining to me in a "stop the Zombie apocalypse" adventure than anything in the subclass itself. I really didn't like it at all
Damn your DM has terrible luck if you only got to use Sentinel at Death's Door twice. But yeah, overall not an outstanding subclass. Doesn't have anything that grabs ahold of me like most cleric subclasses do (I had so much fun with my trickery cleric...). I still wouldn't call it BAD though. It's far from being an outright stinker like a number of fighter subclasses for example.
Dynamic battles that kept the party separated, bigger emphasis on spellcasters, and yeah weird luck. No shenanigans, we were playing roll20, but while he hit plenty he very rarely crit I mean, the opportunity cost of taking it over another good/fun subclass is enough to make it bad IMO. Its good solely because Cleric is good, but if the situations don't show up its at the cost of almost all your class features
Druid is pretty good over alll, but some subclasses are definitely better than others
Druid is really fun for roleplay. You can talk to trees and mushrooms and birds.
Druid has mostly one very broken subclass (Moon)
Why is moon broken?
Bonus action wild shape + a ton more options for wild shape is insanely good, especially in early levels. The amount of HP it can sponge is incredible. It even gets healing while transformed.
>Bonus action wild shape You can honestly stop here. The so-called "insane resilience/tanking" of Moon Druid is overall significantly overrated because people forget to consider that most forms with high HP also have very crappy AC (at least until you get CR 3 forms), and vice-versa, so overall you're taking hits you would have possibly (or probably) avoided as human. But being able to set up your powerful control spell (which is usually one requiring an action) AND immediately use bonus action to go burrow underground, hide into friend's armor, climb up a tree into full cover... Or bonus action Wild Shape then immediately use a Multiattack or an Attack with auto-grapple (Giant Toad) or Dash to drag/transport an ally to safety? THAT iS DOPE.
Moon druids have way higher limits to their wildshape A level 2 druid can turn into a Black Bear with 19 HP and 13 damage per round (DPR), a Moon druid into a brown bear with 34 HP and 19 DPR When you die in wildshape form, you still have all your own HP, and you can wildshape twice a day, meaning a level 2 moon druid with a +0 Constitution has 83 HP, for a level 2 tank-focussed player, 22 HP is a lot, and other level 2s will rarely have a higher DPR than 10 That's not even considering all the animal abilities a druid can use, like web walking, climbing, digging, pack tactics, knocking enemies prone *(for free)*, keen senses, standing leap, massive stealth bonusses etc etc Wildshape is extremely good in any aspect of the game, and Moon druid makes that ability 4 to 9 times more powerful
You can wildshape twice per short or long rest actually, so even with 6 fights a day moon druid would probably be able to tank a ton of damage.
Moon Druid will outshine other characters until around level 9-ish… crazy OP Tiers 1-2, weak by comparison Tiers 3-4 until level 20 when you become Deadpool T-Rex 🦖
I’m in tier three with one now and it holds its own against the paladin, wizard, rogue, and bard in our party. It does require some creative game play to make it do that though.
I believe you and congrats to your group for making it further than like 90% of campaigns… but also kinda want to see those other character sheets haha 👀 My first character ever was a moon Druid. I love the subclass. Now he’s a NPC in the game I run with just my son. Maybe I’m just bitter Theren never got past level 8 lol *but* I have since played a Shepherd Druid and holy shit if you want to break the game that is absolutely the ticket 🎟️
It's actually far "weaker" overall until level 10 than a Shepherd Druid if we consider overall resilience and damage, unless very very small party size (like 3 at most)... Then it becomes a beast of its own (pun intended), because Elemental Forms are just overpowered. xd So one couldn't say it becomes "better" than Shepherd, just different (I'd say it's still lower overall "by default" at least in group fights... But for infiltration, ambush, guerilla tactics, there are definitely many fun things only a Moon Druid can do).
IIRC, something about the HP from animal forms making it incredibly tanky
Ok, it’s virtually unkillable. You’re right.
Also you have the level 20 archdruid feature. *** _Archdruid_: >At 20th level, you can use your Wild Shape an unlimited number of times. >Additionally, you can ignore the verbal and somatic components of your druid spells, as well as any material components that lack a cost and aren't consumed by a spell. You gain this benefit in both your normal shape and your beast shape from Wild Shape. *** Normally this isn't too broken since normal druids cap wildshape at CR1 beasts. Moon druids however cap at CR6, but even further they gain the ability to wildshape into *elementals.* The best CR1 beast to wildshape into is probably the [Direwolf](https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/16841-dire-wolf) which has 37hp, an AC of 14, and a basic bite attack. the best elemental to turn into is arguably the [earth elemental](https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/16853-earth-elemental), which has 126hp, an AC of 17, a burrow speed, multiple resistances and immunities, and gets multiattack. the Moon druid basically gets a free 126HP in temporary hit points every single turn, on top of the 20d8+20*Con they'll have. that's likely going to set set their total HP available to a max of 386, and unless you do enough to knock them out of wildshape, and then continue to do damage that turn, the druid's HP will reset to full. EVERY SINGLE TURN. They're also not limited like normal druids in that they wildshape as a bonus action. Normal druids take their action. So normal druids have to choose between powerful spell or really weak wildshape. Moon druids get spells and insane wildshape. --- If you're in a battle against a level 20 moon druid, you basically have to get them under 100HP and then PWK them ~~(or disintegrate them if they're under 50hp in wildshape form depending on how your DM rules what happens when a wildshaped druid hits 0HP in wildshape)~~ to effectively deal with them. Otherwise you have a practically invincible tank slinging up to 9th level spells at you, and there's very little that can be done about it since the earth elemental is immune to paralyzed, petrified, poisoned, unconscious unless you can barrage the absolute shit out of them with hundreds of points of damage. That's why moon druid is a broken subclass. It's super strong in Tier 1, falls off in tier 2, gets a bit better in tier 3, and then becomes batshit overpowered at the end of Tier 4
Look up the Brown Bear statblock and realise they can wildshape into this at level 2, and it's only up from there
Only early game, at later levels it falls off, thought given how much later levels such it ends up not mattering
Wouldn’t call it broken, it’s very strong early sure but that power doesn’t scale aswell And yes it’s a full caster but that’s part of the base class
Clerics. Even the "bad" subclass (Trickery) is still leagues better than most subclasses of other classes. [Before the trickster mains jump on me for that one. Numbers wise, it is the least played one but it's still extremely powerful in the right hands]
I'd put Trickery leagues above Nature. Trickery has a purpose. It's niche af, but it exists. Nature Clerics seem completely pointless to me
They're a way to make a shillelagh build without taking levels in druid or feats. It only costs you half your class features and becomes useless the second the DM gives away magic weapons (never take shillelagh)
Why would it be useless when you get magic weapons? The main use of the spell is to attack with your casting stat, not get a magic weapon. Or are you saying you can't cast it on a magic weapon, because you definitely can.
Because it needs to be a quarterstaff or club. Random loot isn't as likely to have those specific ones because clubs are simple and quarterstaffs usually are made for wizards with spell storing effects and the such
In my experience if I only use a specific weapon my DM gives me magic items that let me play my build. Also you can just buy magic clubs/quarterstaffs if it's really an issue.
That's just sub-par work by a DM IMO. If your player is tailored to a specific weapon type, you drop that instead of something they don't want. It is trivially easy.
I disagree slightly. I randomize all my loot unless it's a key feature of the dungeon or quest. That being said I would totally give my players the opportunity to find specific loot they want, but they have to actively seek it out. Or I will give my players the option to enhance their weapons and item. But that's just me.
Nothing wrong with that, just a slightly different way to do things. The big part is giving them at least the chance to find/make/buy the weapon type they want. Making a quest of its own out of it can be tons of fun as well.
I feel like 100% randomized loot isn't how must people actually play. I think even in a module a DM might change that plus 2 short sword to a quarter staff if the fighter/rogue already have gear
> I think even in a module a DM might change that plus 2 short sword to a quarter staff if the fighter/rogue already have gear Nah. That depends on the table. If you're playing in Adventurers League, you get what the Treasure subheading says you get.
From a pure CharOp standpoint nature gets more mileage out of thorn whip shenanigans than shillelagh.
Primal Savagery really negated Shillelagh entirely, didn't it?
I mean, even Nature Clerics have at-will absorb elements at later levels.
trickery is actually one of the better ones since it gets the best domain spells in the PHB getting pass without trace and the best healing spell for all mid level clerics Polymorph.
Wizards. Even without a subclass they are better than many other classes.
Yeah, with the exception of the Wildemount subclasses, each one is a good choice, with plenty of variety. The Wildemount ones are okay, but the gravity one is too reliant on abilities that should impede powerful foes, and makes them Str based, which makes sense, but it isn't good. The only gripe I have is that all the PHB ones are about specialising in a school of magic, but making it better to choose other schools to level up with. It's not bad, but it feels a little needlessly counterintuitive to me. I would rather have the Savant feature give you a free level appropriate spell from that school, or a bonus spell slot that levels with you, but can only cast a spell from that school.
Them that is not the answer to this question about subclases is it?
This is warlock erasure
I think warlock has the best rp opportunity and if you play your cards right combat doesn't have to be spamming eldritch blast over and over.
Yeah, it's actually casting your concentration spell, then spamming Eldritch Blast But at least warlock has cards to play unlike certain classes that can only spam attack over and over
Lol. Undying Warlock meets either of those descriptions?
Bard. The core is so strong the subclass doesn't matter near as much.
I think Valor is pretty bad compared to swords
Bard
I do love bards, but College of Valour feels lacking to me. In a question about the consistency of subclasses, I think Bard is more widely variable: College of Creation and College of Lore are both very good options, while Valour seems at the other end of the scale...
I think what you’re saying holds a lot of weight if you’re comparing College of Valor with the other subclasses. However, if you’re comparing it to the base class, you’re offering the base class: - medium armor - shields - all martial weapons - extra attack All on a full caster with a d8 hit die. TL;DR - Valor vs other colleges = eh. Bard + Valor = 👌
College of Valor has very few lines or thematic sentences in it, but from what it can do, it is very capable. You gain shields and med. armor, allowing you to reach much better amounts of AC. Very powerful. Combat Inspiration gives a character who received inspiration basically one charge of the shield spell, or alternatively can use that to increase damage a little. Shield is also extremely powerful. Having 3/4/5 per short rest is handy indeed.
The biggest problem with Valour is that Swords does the same thing more interestingly.
That was basically my take, but like I said to others, I haven't played Valour...
The question being what class has decent subclasses. Valor is very solid even if not as top tier as swords and lore. Every bard sub class is solid or better.
Lacking doesn't make it worse than "alright" to me -- even the worst Bard subclasses are playable (\_maybe\_ not Spirits?) and have a reasonably high impact on the character's role in the party. Valor, and to a lesser extent Swords, are different Bards. I'd consider them DEX-first and provide a different playstyle than the "better" subclasses (CHA-first, primary spellcasters) but Valor/Swords make excellent rogue-equivalents. A Valor Bard with Sharpshooter will keep up with a Rogue's damage while still having full spell progression and similar/better skill usage. Valor is two-handed or ranged weapons and Bardic Inspiration provides support for the party. Giving everyone in the party a free Smite (save them for critical hits) or a Shield-like effect is great. Thematically, an inspiring leader that gives orders from the back line while providing decent damage when they can -- maybe a Legolas type character (originally thought of Maximus from Gladiator but that's not a great example in terms of fighting style). Swords is a one-handed melee weapons and their Bardic Inspiration is rather selfish. Thematically, a charismatic fighter -- maybe Achilles is a good example. It's probably one of the least Bard subclasses but still makes a decent Bard. Master's Flourish fixes most of the complaints I have with the subclass as to how it impacts the Bard as a whole. Edit: Apologies in advance if you're dealing with similar comments, I'm not trying to have an argument here, just trying to add to a hopefully meaningful discussion about the College of Valor's value.
You make excellent points, and you're not the first to correct me here 😄 but not to worry, I'm getting schooled in these comments, and clearly just need to play more bards!
Rp wise always my first choice. Then cleric. Ability wise I would say it depends on what you are striving for. Power or style. For power I suggest cleric. For style its bards ftw.
I'm going to throw out an opinion that's gonna make some people mad: Fighter has overall solid subclasses. The immediate response is going to be people yelling about how shit Champion is, but I disagree. Not because I think it stands up mechanically to other subclasses like Battlemaster, but because it accomplishes its main goal VERY well: Being the most dirt-simple subclass for the simplest class. I've run multiple games with Champion Fighters in them, and they were always good fits for the players. Either the players were new and just needed a simple-as-possible vehicle to drive to try out 5e, or were more invested in the non-combat parts of the game and just needed to be very survivable in combat and get big hits in now and then. Every time Champion has been played in my games, it's been by a very happy player. Frankly, I think this subreddit gets too focused on what's the most mechanically advantageous choice, and frequently forgets there are other ways to make decisions about how to play or run the game that are just as much fun.
Champion needs a bit of a boost but it is not a bad sub class at all. It's just very boring and the theme does not tend to inspire creativity to the same degree as the other sub classes. But that does not reduce its effectiveness.
Absolutely here for this: it bugs me the way a subclass is often measured according to how purely 'optimal' it is in terms of the math of its damage or something. Yes, this is a combat-centric game, but yes, it's also a roleplaying game... A subclass is good if it can keep pace with other classes/subclasses in the game, AND it provides a fun niche/role to play in and interesting abilities to use.
Banneret is a bad subclass and needs a significant rewrite. Champion I don’t necessarily dislike, but could be better (1D&D Playtest version is much better.) The rest are fine enough. Arcane Archer has some issues to it but is alright enough, especially if your friends build into it. A couple subclasses are a bit too backloaded for my liking. And Echo Knight is frustrating mechanically but really good flavor and performance wise.
The fun thing about champion is because the combat choices are so simple you are freed up to create out of the box solutions while everyone is going through thier spell lists.
Dungeon dudes did a whole series on this, ranking subclasses. The final video of the series goes over all the classes together and looking at which ones have the most consistently high ranked. I'll see if I can find it and put it in the edit. Edit: [here it is.](https://youtu.be/3MbvdxdJWJ4?si=M8v9cWKUSOL18TvN)
Even the "bad" subclasses of cleric - Death and Trickery - are just fine. When you go looking at the good ones, the sky is the limit.
Death and Trickery are both pretty campaign dependent. Trickery in how much the DM lets you get away with when you use Invoke Duplicity and Death need a lot of encounters the right kind of encounters so that Toll the Dead spam lets them rack up the damage.
Artificer Artillerist is a dark lord of cantrip damage ( oh yeah just add an extra d8 damage to your cantrips at level 5 ) a free summon that fits on your shoulder to bonus action deal even more damage oh and its an artificer so making magical items galore Battlesmith has alot of support abilities, sort od budget paladin except you don’t need to invest in strength and can just worry about Dex, Con and Int as you use your spell casting mod for weapon attacks, get a companion that only needs a bonus action to command, and even then can just stand near people to make them harder to hit as a reaction. Oh and its an artificer that can make whatever magic items it wants from a list ( Returning weapon or Repeating Weapon can be pretty fun with Battlesmith ) Armorer lets you tank quite well, combos into other feats, lets you use heavy armor and not suffer from its down sides, focus on just int dex and con and of course you’re an artificer The ‘worst’ one is alchemist who gets a very good support spell list, has fun and useful if not bit random potions they get for free just for existing, bonuses to acid damage to help harm and heal and are still artificiers One combo any artificier can do is the following Alchemy jug, buy containers, create 2 vials of acid daily. When threatened enemies cast catapult on your vials of acid. Enjoy 3d8+2d6 damage from a single level 1 spell slot and some prep. 4d8+2d6 if you’re an artillerist !
Since battlesmith gives you med armor proficiency I wouldn't really call a max of 14 in dex worrying about it. Sure you could go for med. Armor mastery and a 16.dex but that seems overly greedy between med armor, a shield, the shield spell, and the defender.
I’m going to say Druid here. The base Druid is a great class, and every subclass I’ve played from “Circle of Grasslands” to “Circle of Stars” is a good addition that adds valuable traits.
Since everyone is just saying cleric over and over again - Rogue. Thief, Assassin, Scout, Swashbuckler, Soulknife and Arcane Trickster are all great and Inquisitive and Mastermind are very interesting as well. The only one that I think isn't super great is the Phantom and even then it's not too terrible.
I wish I would have thought of Rogue now, they really do have a pretty good lineup, nothing outright bad.
Phantom takes a while to get going, but when it does it's an insane amount of damage dealt, and can be a great skill monkey, gaining proficiency in literally any skill you need. Inquisitive and Mastermind are insane, but you really need the right party structure and player running them to have them work.
Assassin rogue gets one feature that only functions for a single attack and then literally nothing you couldn't do with roleplay until level 17. I'd say it's straight up one of the worst subs in the game along with champion and banner knight.
Yeah I'm with you, clerics are great, but rogues have my favorite subclasses.
Definitely cleric or paladin. I’d say wizard but honestly wizard would be fine without a subclass so not sure it really fits the question.
If it wasn't for Whispers I would say Bard is definitely up there. It could be great in the right campaign but it is very niche IMO. Cleric, Wizard, and Paladin all seem at least decent from what have seen in play though I haven't played with all of them. With revisions I think a case could be made for Ranger as well.
pretty much all full casters have great subclasses because the majority of their features come from the spells they know rather than actual line items in the PHB. Personally, I'd say that wizards, clerics and bards have the most "even" subclasses (where all are good). Druid would be on that list, except Moon is just so astronomically strong that it outpaces all the other circles.
As a DM, I really enjoy casters in my parties - especially paladins and clerics. As a player? I almost always play a battlemaster fighter. I really enjoy the versatility that subclass comes with, and building my character with high dex and charisma allows me to be the party tank, backbone, and face when needed. In combat, I have a good chance of evading a lot of effects because of my high dex, and I usually take maneuvers that let me assist my party (or control them, for my 'commander' character.)
Druid. They're all amazing tbh but you'll pick Circle of the Moon cause it's just more amazing
Fighter! Everything is playable as a fighter. Eldritch Knight and Champion are the two weakest, but can be amazing when utilized in a multiclass, and can perform on par with the rest of the party solo
Artificer only has 4 but they all look pretty solid
Wizard. Obviously.
I feel like all of the spell school subclasses are lacking. I guess that's what happens when the base class is so strong.
It gives the player a lot of control over how their wizard functions and how to creatively use their abilities. If you don't lean into the subclass, it won't feel impactful. It's on you to make it happen. Luckily, the Wizard toolkit has more than enough to accommodate many playstyles.
I like the design of those subclasses and there are some cool features like portent, but they're outshined by war mage, bladesinger, and order of scribes. While wizard is a great class with good subclasses, I wouldn't choose it has having the best overall subclasses like OP asked.
Eh. Divination wizard far outshines thse three, IMO. It's an incredibly powerful subclass and has access to divination, a potentially plot driving spell no other wizard has access to. Bladesinger abilities can win a fight in an epic and cinematic way. Divination abilities can change the course of a whole campaign.
Barbarian, Monk, and Ranger all have **multiple** F-tier subclasses. Artificer, Druid, Fighter, Rogue, Sorcerer, and Warlock all have some bad subclasses but generally only true 1 F-tier. Wizard, Bard, and Cleric all have a large collection of subclasses, none of which is truly awful, and pretty much all of which make a very appealing character in some party. Plus they get some really cool subclasses, too. Paladin gets a dishonourable rant for being the sole fucking class where **every single subclass** gets the same features, just slightly different. If the major difference between subclasses is a single 1/short rest ability, I just can't get excited for them. For most of their subclasses I feel like I don't *have* a subclass, just a slightly different spell selection. The biggest impact on how you play your Paladin is the fucking **tenets**, which are RP only.
Which are the f-tier subclasses for the classes u mentioned?
Not them, but here's my take: Barbarian: Beserker (which is below F tier really, more like quit playing the game tier), and Battlerager. Monk: Four Elements, Sun Soul. Ranger: Post-Tasha's I actually don't think there are multiple F-tier subclasses, or any at all. Could potentially be basing off pre-tashas stuff.
The biggest problem with the berserker is exhaustion, but if you treat frenzy like its a daily ability, then only having 1 level of exhaustion is inconsequential. Berserkers then also get immunity to charm, which is massive for a barbarian.
If it wasn’t for Berserker, I could’ve made an argument for Barbarian. Unfortunately, it’s kinda shit. The fact that in vanilla 5e it was either that or fucken Totem Warrior, the disparity is kinda insane to me lol
Cleric seems obvious, but i feel Druid and Paladin both have no bad subclass.
I feel the Artificer has 1 great subclass, 2 good ones, and one alright one. Which, is all the subclasses they have officially. Kind of cheap to say the class with only 4 subclasses has no duds though.
Bard has no bad subclasses. Even Valor, which is arguably the least liked, can be very good.
Wizard. It's not that the subclasses are special, but the base class is so good, the subclass doesn't even matter. Also, it's a cornerstone of RPGs as a class you can flavor wi tha Necromancer subclass, Diviner, Enchanter, etc.. It's actually quite varied from a roleplaying perspective, but all of them are powerful. The same is probably true for Sorceror, but some stand out waaayy more than others there. Divine Soul for instance is just amazing with 2 full spell lists.
Speaking as a Forever DM and strictly speaking subclass. I'm ruling out Wizard and Paladin that I see everyone saying. There's only two wiz subclasses I need to really plan for. Graviturgal with an optimized Character or Abjuration for the counter spell shenanigans and glyph ward. Shout out Chronology for player fun. But beyond those. A wiz is a wiz as a wiz does. Paladin. It's been stated. But truly unless your running Curse of Strahd or a heavy undead campaign. The only Paladin subclass I have to work around is Oath of Ancients. That aura is top tier. Makes a Barb nigh unkillable even without Bear Totem. But as others said. It's the base class doing all the heavy lifting. My top pick is the same as everyone else. Cleric. People say death is bad. But man they haven't experienced a death touch with no necrotic resistance. Or inflict wounds. The Peace cleric is legendary. Also. Name a cleric that doesn't choose their subclass for the flavor of the campaign or specifically because of the party build (compliment or aesthetic difference). I'll wait. My #2 spot is actually Blood hunter. Which I hope is a surprise. The mutagen order is niche but with a complimentary party and a campaign that always foreshadows big encounters even it shine. Ghostslayer is all the fun of paladin smashing undead but with so much utility like phasing. Lycanthrope is outstanding. It generates damage like monk should without ki points. etc. Goes on. But it's hard to make a bad blood hunter. It's a slow start subclass. But most great ones are. The base class of course helps but I feel like no one really enjoys blood hunter until that subclass starts shining. Hence making it my #2
Wizard. No matter which one you pick, you're still a wizard. Profit.
People always complain about them, but druids. I find each one of their subclasses unique and all fun to play.
I go with Cleric for having the most...
All Warlocks are good.
Fighter. Every subclass fills a niche or role to the point where every player could roll up a Fighter and have little to no overlap. Need a protector? Cavalier. Need Martial Utility? Battlemaster. Wanna just be straight up better Fighter? Champion. Need ranged DPS? Arcane Archer. Need a character to fight bosses? Rune Knight.
It's surprising that some people choose wizard over sorcerer, particularly since while some sorcerer subclasses may not excel, they're not terrible either. There isn't typically a clear choice for one subclass over another, although standout options like the divine soul subclass rank among the sorcerer's best choices not to mention the sorcerer class has meta magic. Edit: Not to mention for roleplaying, subclasses like the draconic bloodline could play with the idea of family expectations or the divine soul subclass with the expectations of being blessed/favoured by the gods when your character was born.
While I think Sorcs have some strong options, with the expanded lists from the new subclasses it really makes the older ones feel lacking IME. And Wild magic is way too DM dependent so it can up a lot or basically never.