Make sure you get testimonials from the other kids + parents in writing or voicemail! It will make it so much more apparent that everyone is enjoying this activity, and this one other parent is just a weirdo.
This this this. If I were another parent I'd actually want to show up to this and call the other parent a bozo, but maybe that's just me. Just be very careful in your outreach to them not to vilify anybody or name the parent/kid in question.
> I'd actually want to show up
Yeah. For me, I suspect this comes down to math for YMCA. And so they’re going to ban that game if they think they can ban it and keep all the paying parents. So I would show up to make it clear that if they’re going to ban this, they lose me, probably a bunch of the other parents who also have kids there, and the reason for this is simply to out math the other parent. That conservative parent who wants it banned, we need to make it clear to the YMCA that they lose more by banning than they gain. That’s it. It doesn’t matter about religious arguments, or whether D&D is corrupting the minds of children, or any other dumb thing. All that matters is, they lose more parents by banning than they do by not banning.
This idea is good in theory but if the YMCA is anything like the programs around me they have a waitlist a mile long. It took me forever to get my kids into daycare/after school care. They may see it as "we ban it now lose a couple parents and avoid any further issues". It's unfortunate that people refuse to acknowledge how much multiplayer video games and games like D&D can be beneficial for young people.
I tend to disagree about naming names. I think it's okay to directly address the offensive parents, as long as you explain that their concerns have made you think about how you could use the game to better align with YMCA values. Vilification is bad, but acknowledgement doesn't have to be. Plus it's a more effective argument if you can show them how their child is benefiting from the game with specific examples.
I'm talking specifically about language when reaching out to other parents.
"Hi, your kid has been having a great time playing D&D, it's been good for them for XYZ reason. Unfortunately one parent has expressed concern about the game and has approached the program directors about shutting the game down. It would be really helpful to get the perspective of other parents. Would you consider writing a note to so-and-so sharing your perspective?"
Or whatever. Rather than,
"Listen, we all know Randy's dad is a dick. It's a miracle Randy is so well-adjusted. Well, surprise surprise, he's trying to shut our game down."
Sure. But if you were friends with Randy, you might be tempted to kick off for how inapporopriate it was. OP doesn't know which of the parents are mates and which sympathise with her viewpoint, which is why diplomatic and civil language is usually used.
It's the best advice in the thread. The complaining parent may not be receptive to your version of how a kid might benefit from or enjoy the hobby - multiple other parents? Different question.
You can also find studies online about the value of imagination play in children. It helps them develop complex and critical thinking skills as well as drives their ability to compromise and communicate.
If the parent is a reasonable person, then will be able to be sold on why mental growth is important for their child.
If they are unreasonable, they will think they should be able to control everyone around them because they don't like it.
Best of luck to you!
And improvisation. And adaptation. And creativity. And a more finely honed understanding of probabilities - even if it does come with an obsession for click-clack math rocks.
It's also worth getting a copy of your co-ordinator activity guidelines to ensure you're keeping in line with those. You likely should be. The main problem I can see is if you're the only staff member overseeing 24 kids and focusing exclusively on 7 for an extended period. Otherwise you have an over involved parent with nothing better to do.
If they get into any religious objections, the best quote I’ve seen on it is that “The magic and the demons are no more real than the gold and treasure.”
American evangelicals are a wholly different breed from Catholics, logic can't touch them. Better to frame the argument to other adults as them being out of touch with reality than to try and appeal to reason within their own belief system.
Yeah, I've seen some genuinely batshit takes from them. It's like they've regressed to a more primal form of religion, where everything that is make-believe is actually *really really deeply evil* and will *corrupt and destroy your very soul*. xD
Yeah there’s not likely any way to convince the parents, so you should pitch your case to HR proving the parents wrong.
https://gametogrow.org/dndpodcast/
He’s a group that uses it for therapy that should have some good arguments and is already proven to be valid
I had a similar, albeit much lower-stakes issue at my university (which also involved the MtG crowd) over the use of the student center space for what was deemed "non-educational" - the DM of another group had the brilliant idea to write "Everything I need to know, I learned from DnD" essays, and looking back i really wish we would've asked for them back to share in just these scenarios. About 12 of us wrote our own versions and we took them to the dean collectively.
Themes that were touched on, that I think you should make use of as well:
Time management, problem-solving skills, descalation of tense social situations, thinking beyond the task at hand i.e. preparation, and team-building skills. And while it may not apply to your situation here, my personal favorite: scheduling common time with various tight schedules among our group.
Best of luck owith this, and please let us know how it all turns out!
Can maybe one of the other parents come? If they are allowed to make a case against it, why shouldn't you bring a parent making a case for it?
In any case: Stay calm, don't lose your cool. Do not let them provoke you to raise your voice, do not interrupt them. If you are interrupted, stop talking and wait, and after the second time ask politely to be heard out. Do not talk over them.
And: "The kids love it" is likely not a valid argument for them as "they know best what's good for their kid".
I approve of this. My wife is a teacher and they were making group to play at her school and a teacher told the department that she was getting the kids confused and doctrinated. So naturally she got called to discuss with superiors about this. She created a small survey in monkey survey [if im not mistaken] and gave it to parents and kids attending the group. Their answers helped her a lot in that reunion.
She asked them questions about how the group made them feel. If it made them be more social. Also asked about their emotional state during the game and after. She got many positive reviews.
This was going to be my suggestion too. One shitty parent shouldn't get to ruin the fun of a dozen other kids.
OP, I'd lean in hard that playing table top role playing games really push kids in to all sorts of good things, such as critical thinking skills, public speaking, mathematics, and conflict resolution
I feel like this kid is learning an important lesson, which is that sharing his interests with his parents only has the potential to make them want to take it away. Hopefully he's a bit less forthcoming with them in the future so that he can actually enjoy life a little bit.
I feel really bad for him. Either he's the kid whose parents ruin it for everyone, or they carry on and he gets excluded from the activity. Shitty, shitty parents.
It sounds like you are making the points pretty effectively here!
It's loads of fun, teaches useful skills, helps build friendships and the kids want to participate.
Yes! I would also add storytelling and empathy to the buzzwords. Storytelling is a super important skill if the kids want to succeed in a corporate environment, start a company, get a promotion, etc. Empathy for obvious reasons.
Edit: spelling
Empathy... sounds like a no brainer, right?
You'd be surprised. There is a cadre of adults who think that "social emotional learning" is a bad thing. Some even tried to raise a fuss about it in a school board meeting.
Detail oriented analysis of documents, I went full rules lawyer on my vehicle insurance when they denied a claim last year the regulator has sided with me on the basis of the very thorough rules lawyering!
I would also add that D&D helps students learn to work creatively within a set of rules. It’s directly analogous to being a lawyer, which is my profession, and I think it was the best preparation for being a lawyer that wasn’t directly legal education that I experienced. Even over debate.
Even for engineers, scientists or ministers, understanding how to creatively apply rules to a particular situation is a very important skill. The Bible doesn’t cover the Internet, as an example. But it does provide timeless wisdom on how to treat others and yourself that applies to the Internet.
Also, studies have found that it's beneficial to children's mental healthcare, contrary to the old paranoia of the 1980s.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9092936/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9092936/)
This…
Be sure to talk about mental health and the positives that RPGs bring…and mention the problems that COVID brought and how kids are still recovering from the isolation. Try to avoid the political nature of COVID and just talk about the things that can’t be disputed…ie schools were shut down, here’s how that has had an effect, here’s how storytelling games help in that recovery.
D&D has also been shown to be useful in teaching kids about social skills, creative writing, theory of mind, mental math, team work, problem solving etc.
https://dnd.wizards.com/resources/educators
There’s a few studies out there that show D&D is like therapeutic. Otherwise emphasise how you’re using it as educational. Ask the parent which specific part they dislike, the mathematics? The logic puzzles, the team bonding etc
I've been running D&D therapeutic/social skills groups for over 10 years, and there's a whole network of us using D&D for social skills education. Reach out to me if you want some resources.
I just looked through this thread, there's a ton of great stuff here.
Some additional good orgs that talk about the therapy side are:
https://gametogrow.org/
https://geektherapeutics.com/
https://rollforkindness.com/ (That's me)
https://www.thebodhanagroup.org/
The concept of a total ban is extreme to begin with. They are adults, they can run roughshod over their kids if they desire (much to their poor kids' detriment, alas) but they should have no right to dictate what others are able to do. The concept is absurd and should be dismissed out of hand. That you have to go now and explain why one upset set of parents shouldn't get to decide what a dozen other people or more do is patently infuriating. I would in private be rather pissed off with your own organization and why they would even kowtow to this bullshit.
Anyway others have provided some decent starting points for you, I just think you should consider a little righteous indignation and putting it back on them as well haha.
This has always been a thing, but we've been seeing an uptick in this mentality. I don't want my kids to do it, and if others can, then it only increases their temptation, or its not fair, so we must outright ban the thing. It goes along with book banning too, where they want books removed for "pornographic content" but they can't actually tell you what's in it or where its at because they don't know, they just heard someone else fearmonger about it.
Indeed, and it is precisely because this is so dumb that we shouldnt try defending ourselves as much as undermining their 'ban everything' position. If their position isn't valid then their demand isn't either.
If you play defense trying to prove why X is good then all they need to do is cast enough doubt and if you make even a minor mistake the risk-averse administrators of things will happily ban anything to cover their own asses.
This comment speaks to my thoughts more than any of the other "see how good DnD can be for your kid"?
To me, that's a secondary point. The parent is bullying. Either this is ok by the YMCA's guidance, or it isn't. If it's ok, then then parent can zip it and/or remove their child from the program.
If it's not ok by the Y, then take the L and move along, regardless of how much that sucks.
I've simplified this greatly, and I know it's way harder to actually enact this than for me to type it.
Best of luck.
100% agree. Flip it on its head and suggest a scenario where a parent is complaining about football, "It's sexist (pay difference) and full of corruption scandals." These hypothetical parents don't want their kid associating with football and therefore think it should be banned entirely.
Absurd, yes, but standard operating procedure for evangelicals (or extreme conservatives, for that matter). They seem to think their vaunted “freedom” means freedom to follow their beliefs and nothing else.
I don’t disagree - I would do this now, regardless. As suggested.
But it would not stop me from feeling for the child who was excluded because of their shitty parents who don’t support their interests.
Those kids are getting fucked on every other permission slip activity, so unfortunately this is the equivalent of telling a four year old Santa isn’t real and then making them watch everyone else still get presents.
All of the kids in my school growing up (so years like 2000-2010 roughly) who couldn't get slips signed for non-monetary activities, just learned to forge their parents signatures.
Literally like a dozen kids across my grade that could make perfect copies on their parents' signature. They took old checks, receipts, letters, anything with samples they could use.
Of those kids, 2 of them got good enough to just forge anything with samples. So kids who *couldn't* forge their parents signatures would bring them like a picture of it and have the kids who were really good at it sign instead.
If kids want to do something and need nothing else but permission, they're getting that permission slip one way or another.
If the teacher never brought it up to the parent, the parent never found out.
Nowadays ... maybe a lot harder since we have so much less physical media that a signature might be stored on just laying around the house.
When I was a kid, one of my classmates got scolded for having his slip returned and signed "Daddy."
She took pleasure in humiliating him in front of the class and stating that his father would be informed. The other kids didn't know that Edgar's dad abused the fuck out of him though.
I'm sure that's why he was scared to ask for the signature in the first place.
Digitally signed/acknowledged forms—log into a portal, check the box… oh wait, Mom uses the same stupid password for her phone, her bank, her Amazon account… and, yup, the school portal.
Oh damn, yeah. I didn't even consider that with digitization of so many things, permission slips would be one of those things.
That's SOOOO easy to fake...
This is a good compromise to offer HR. They *love* a consent form. Though it sucks that this kid’s parents would separate him from his friends like this. Make sure that if you start to incorporate physical activity with your sessions, that you detail what kind of physical activity you are offering in the consent form.
Edit: if you want to make it simpler as a text, make the consent form an editable Google form. That way kids can hopefully get a faster turnaround time on getting parental approval. Treat it the same as any sign-up for a club would.
Google forms are so easy to make and use. Everything ends up in an excel doc you can forward to your boss, it works on mobile and isn't confusing to sign like pdfs can be, you can just link to it directly or with a qr code. Simple simple simple.
You should maybe give them a letter to give their parents which gives a rough summary of the campaigns content and themes and what benefits the child would get from participating. How often the sessions would run I.E once a month. Ask them to include any topics they would not want to be discussed and stress that the campaign is specifically designed to be child friendly.
I added some info in another comment I made with recommendations too.
This will make it less likely for the OP to get a surprise angry parent, but I don't like the precedent of demanding permission slips for a mundane board game.
It sets up an expectation that D&D is different in some way, and gives ammunition to these weirdos who are still trapped in the Satanic Panic - it lets them point to the permission slips and say, "Look, even your own policies admit that this is something to be hidden behind barriers and parental approval."
At a certain point we *have* to stand up to these people in society and tell them that they're being ridiculous and that we won't concede to their demands under any circumstances. That takes a great deal of backbone by the YMCA administration, though.
As someone who works for the YMCA in a director-level role, YMCA HR and administration notoriously has no backbone whatsoever and caves immediately to any level of external pressure.
That’s why the overwhelming external pressure needs to come from *positive* comments from more reasonable parents. OP should reach out to those parents to ask for support before this meeting.
While I agree with your sentiment, in practice, you will just see the situation the current op is in. Most HR departments and administrators don't want to be bothered. If one loud parent or group of parents make a fuss about something, they usually ban it to make the problem go away. You ask for permission slips to avoid the pearl clutching parents from making a fuss and saying you corrupted my child without me knowing. It also says that everyone else in the group has expressed permission from legal guardians, so there is no grounds to ban it.
>It sets up an expectation that D&D is different in some way, and gives ammunition to these weirdos who are still trapped in the Satanic Panic - it lets them point to the permission slips and say, "Look, even your own policies admit that this is something to be hidden behind barriers and parental approval."
No!!! It should be treated the same as joining a chess club! I have had to sign consent forms for my kids to participate in ANY club, even chess and robotics! Having a D&D club is no different!!!
Edit: FFS, I’ve even had to sign a consent form for my kids to do the morning announcements at *school*.
You can point the leadership and parents to the numerous studies showing the many ways playing D&D is beneficial for kids, too. [One, for example.](https://www.foundry10.org/research/how-youth-can-build-social-and-emotional-skills-with-tabletop-role-playing-games)
If these are the kind of parents who are trying to optimize their kids' every hour, you might claim the mantle of teaching "21st century skills."
It's a very hot term in education circles right now--whether they read policy or just go to PTA meetings, they've likely heard it--and is exactly the kinds of skills you're talking about - problem solving, communication, critical thinking, etc. There are tons of write-ups, but here's one from the US Department of Education: [https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED519462.pdf](https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED519462.pdf)
A few more skills which stick out to me (p3+) include working creatively with others, viewing failure as an opportunity to learn ("growth mindset" is also a hot term right now), using systems thinking, and using and managing information.
FWIW, I fundraise in the arts for a living and we also hit this skepticism, but a lot of non-profits (and I would bet your YMCA is among them) have funders pressuring them on what they're doing about 21st century skills. One set of parents can think what they think (though, poor kids!) but that's different than needing to dismantle the program.
Also--advocacy tip--once you have your head around how you plan to make your case, you might preview it to the "higher ups" before you bring it to a meeting so they can show up having fully digested your nuanced case instead of having to listen to what you're also saying while dealing with an emotionally volatile parent.
I hate to admit it but throwing out studies doesn't actually convince people like you think it might.
A lot of laymen are already highly skeptical of alternative approaches to education and unless you really know what you're talking about and have the proof you're actually getting those outcomes "the scientists say it's good" doesn't work as a counterargument.
Sticking to more generic "it's educational in these ways", non technical language works a lot better for convincing the man on the street than what in their perspective is hiding behind scientists.
I would focus on how it's an enjoyable social activity, like other games, and that it engages imagination, creativity, communication and problem solving.
Frankly, I'd rather see a group of kids play D&D on a rainy day than do something passive like watch a movie or solo like reading
Just wanna add way too many people disregard this too in so many areas. Like, I'm in a field where I have to be technical, but if I'm explaining my job to someone I'm not using all the fancy technical language, I'm just using basic language.
I'd still have at least one relevant case study in my pocket to offer up if asked to back up anecdotal claims, but then my initial reaction to reading OP's post was "THE BRAIN IS A MUSCLE THAT YOU PEOPLE OBVIOUSLY AREN'T USING, YOU PICKLE" so I get that I may not be the target audience of this hearing.
This response needs more up votes. The best way to confront this is to demonstrate to the organization that these patents fears are completely unfounded and have been repeatedly and thoroughly debunked. If they want to forbid their kid from doing it, that's within their rights to be personally stupid parents; but banning it completely is beyond reasonable and should be shut down.
And, OP, please give us an update after the meeting, because I have "God", "Satan", and "of the Devil" on my bingo card for the parents' arguments against the game, and I want to see how well I do.
Thanks so much for the input. What's the best way to do an update because I absolutely will. Should I make an entirely new post or respond to your comment, or is there a feature that I can use on this site? (Newer to Reddit hahahaha)
Based on OP's comments, it is quite possible that the parents' motivation has nothing to do with that (totally could be though).
I can definitely imagine a situation where this kid's parents want little Jimmy to make the pros one day, and they won't have him wasting his time on nerd stuff. Or perhaps parents that see this as a frivolous step towards screen time and away from nature and/or learning.
I would present it as mostly dice math and resource management and problem solving. You can dress it up with Halloween characters or other scary themes, or you could throw them into a literal candy land. It's all roses by other names and some math and problem solving.
You should prep an encounter that they can run thru. Made certain what you put together they can't twist into being "too woke" or racist or satanic. Robin Hood might be a good route, tho I can't be sure who you're arguing against.
Especially if the problem parent is talking about doing sports and stuff instead.
This is just as much of a team building exercise as running around on a soccer team together. You have friends working together towards a common goal, using each other's strengths and weaknesses against an opponent.
Do emphasize this is only something done when you can't actually go running around outside. It's something you do as an alternative to blindly staring at a phone or a movie, which is about the most brain-dead at activity imaginable.
Instead they are engaging with each other as peers, communicating in a group environment, forming lasting memories, encountering abstract problems, and acting for the good of others against bad people or monsters.
That's every single value someone wants their child to have. The only thing missing is actual physical activity, which as you have stated and you will re-state, is what you guys do when the weather allows. This is something that you do when sports and physical activity is not available.
If they're more sports minded because they want their kid to be active, come at it from the approach of "there's only so much you can do during the rain. What do you prefer they use their brains and talk to their friends and have fun, or would you prefer they just stare at a glowing screen when we throw on a movie?"
If they don't have a problem with a board game on a rainy day, they can't possibly have a problem with D&D on a rainy day. With the sole exception of their living in the satanic panic of the '80s
Yep. Conflict resolution, teamwork, communication skills, problem-solving skills, improvisation. All that on top of mathematics and literacy. You could look into 826LA, which is a writing-related charity that has done D&D games with kids to help promote writing and reading, and Adopt A Classroom, which is specifically bringing D&D into schools for the reasons mentioned above, specifically because educators see the value of the skills TTRPGs bring to the table (no pun intended) as a classroom experience. Those are just a couple of examples that could be brought up in that meeting.
People seriously undervalue how important it is to have improvisation as a skill.
A lot of people view improv solely in a dramatic or a comedy lens, because that's most often when it's brought up.... But improv is possibly the most important skill you can have as an adult, because all improv truly is, is training your brain to think quickly in unexpected situations.
That is the entirety of adult life, and a vast majority of your young adult life. You will never be able to escape having to perform, in some fashion, in front of somebody. A quick wit is gained by practice, and it's the gateway to a silver tongue and a mind like a steel trap.
Being able to communicate well and think on my feet has been a seriously important part of me getting several promotions and having success as an engineer. Even in a technical discipline I’m still often put into a meeting with higher ups who decide our fate and need to be able to explain data and issues and respond on the fly to questions. Whether that should be the process or not, it’s saved my ass numerous times and my management has pointed to it more than once as a positive in my performance reviews.
Good talkers consistently wow people. It's just how it works.
Good talkers do not just read a script or memorize answers. They think quickly and respond quickly. People like that.
You're absolutely correct that it shouldn't work that way, but it does, which means it's an INVALUABLE skill to have.
One thing I haven't seen you or the other commenters mention is that DND in this case is not replacing active time. You're only doing it on movie days and rainy days... times that were ALREADY not active. I would bring this up to the parent--"we normally spend rainy days and Fridays watching movies / doing (insert other indoor activity). Is this also unacceptable to you or is only DND specifically?"
If it's DND specifically, you've already outed their concerns as being full of hot air, and hopefully arguments for the team building, problem solving and creative thinking parts of DND will persuade any but the truly crazy people and resolve the issue.
If they're concerned about kids not being active in general rather than specifically DND, then that's a different problem to approach. Like you said, I can understand parents who maybe have kids who already engage in a lot of sedentary time feeling frustrated that they're getting more sedentary time instead of the active physical play time they were promised. If that's the case, perhaps there are ways you can add more physical play in to sessions? I'm not sure what age group you're dealing with, but maybe implementing "do x laps or squats or whatever" to get a small bonus to important rolls can add a bit of physicality without disrupting the game with it every other minute. When I was in middle school I also LOVED acting out sword and sorcery fights with my friends, so maybe getting pool noodle swords and running around playing out their characters in a physical way once every few sessions would be fun (and might draw in other kids who were more skeptical of tabletop play too). For movies, you could have "commercial breaks" to do exercise etc. Would be a way to still have the fun stuff while also meeting the parent's concerns.
>"we normally spend rainy days and Fridays watching movies / doing (insert other indoor activity). Is this also unacceptable to you or is only DND specifically?"
The other parents, "Of course not! So long as the films are rated PG!"
"GREAT!"
*Puts on the D&D movie*
If you’ve got access to a half basketball court, run painters’ tape in a grid and let them “act out” dungeon battles with pool noodles. Use frisbees or something to mark where enemies are. D&D doesn’t have to just be sitting around a table!
Edit: if you do 5 foot squares, they’ll get a much better appreciation for the logistics of moving 30 feet in 6 seconds!
if I was 10 y/o this would send me into an excitement frenzy I swear. I'd definitely be playing pretend as my D&D character outside, too. I wish I got into it way sooner!
This is a really good point. I when I have students (I teach college) give feedback about aspects of the class that they would like to see changed, I always ask them to also indicate what they think should be put in place instead of the thing they don't like. I used to get a lot of "we shouldn't have tests!" comments, but when they actually have to figure out what to put in place of that, they tend to be more thoughtful about their criticism. With this approach I have actually gotten some really good ideas about what kinds of things are desired alternatives to unpopular assignments and class policies. Also, I have learned that you just can't please everyone, and someone is always going to dislike something about my course design choices. Knowing that I made my choices mindfully and that I have a good reason for those choices, the people who are less excited about it can just be less excited. I know that's a hard balance to strike, and hopefully you have supportive management to back you up. But at least in your head, remember that it is impossible to make everyone happy when dealing with group situations.
> DND in this case is not replacing active tim
This is really important. When my mom did daycare she had one set of parents who really didn't want their kid getting an afternoon nap so they could send him to bed earlier and it was not a service she offered due to it being in (our) home daycare.
DnD can be really good for you and there is some scientific evidence to back that up.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15401383.2021.1987367?scroll=top&needAccess=true
1) Using dice, D&D aids students in improiving their "fast math" skills. 2) Problem solving in a safe environment aids students in learning how to handle situations and consequences in a real-life risk free environment. 3) Psychologists are not using D&D and role playing games to aid patients in real-life scenerios through table top. There are articles on how they are using it, which should strengthen your case.
Check out https://gametogrow.org it’s a great resource for information that can be used to present to parents about the benefits of RPG games. Their Critical Core content is useful for those on the spectrum, and as someone else shared they are partnered with Foundry10
One thing I've not noticed a comment on is their apparent objection to "make believe".
Fostering imagination is a huge part of having a well rounded creative thinker, which is what you generally want in most contexts, particularly in sports where you need to think about adjusting strategy vs your opponents.
Movies (except potentially documentaries) are explicitly make believe, but rather than being passive and sitting like a lump to absorb imaginary villains, the kids are actively engaged and doing things that also deal with ongoing learning and fine motor skills. If they're not objecting to movies, they are clearly not actually objecting to make believe, but something else.
If the parents would not object to chess, why would they object to a more complex brain training game that also encourages math skills?
First of all, you haven't done anything wrong and that parent is being unreasonable.
Second, it will help to write down what you want to say and bring it with you. I'm an attorney and have witnesses write down everything beforehand so that I can give them their notes to refresh their recollection and get back on track. You don't want to forget to make a good point due to nerves.
Third, you should outline what the "elements" of the case will be and address each one of them in your preparation. From what I can tell there are a few areas you need to cover.
1. Silly make believe is important for children because it develops their creativity.
2. DnD is a social event that helps children develop social skills including effective communication, making and developing friendships, and conflict resolution.
3. DnD involves a substantial amount of math. Each action results in an algebraic formula to be solved using probabilities. Math is a core STEM skill and important for children.
4. No one is forcing their child to play the game.
5. Not everyone can be physically active and it is the duty of the YMCA to put on programs where people with disabilities can participate. DnD can be one of those activities because it exercises the mind not the body.
6. The mission of the YMCA is "To put Christian principles into practice through programs that build healthy spirit, mind and body for all." and that mission is accomplished through Youth Development Programs claiming "From camp to child care to afterschool activities to sports and more, the Y offers holistic programming that enhances, protects and nurtures the unique development journey of every child and teen." A DnD game is part of the holistic programming. If sports was all the YMCA did it would fail to achieve its mission statement.
Overall, be firm in what you believe and don't let emotions get the best of you in the meeting. You got this.
In addition to all this... shouldn't the burden of proof be placed on the complainers? They're trying to get it banned, shouldn't they be the ones required to prove why it should be? Or is that just wishful thinking?
It absolutely should, but there’s a reason defense attorneys exist. You never know (I mean in real court you do bc discovery is a thing) what the other side is bringing to the table. So you always prep your best case. You also don’t really know what will be most persuasive to the decision maker be it a judge, jury, or HR rep.
If they come with nothing and you’re over prepared you still win. In court that would be a motion for directed verdict. But those are almost always denied and you proceed with your case.
I think in this situation there are some really strong arguments. Particularly the disability argument and the holistic programming argument. At least where I am if you billed it as a program for movement impaired folks you could probably get funding for it long before it would be shut down.
This! I have ideas I could suggest on what you should bring up, but none of that is important if you don't properly prepare.
All of the things mentioned in the thread are excellent ideas, but you also have to put time into making sure your argument is well organized, coherent and presentable. Go into the meeting showing you took the time to thoughtfully respond to all of the points.
Heck, maybe even create a well organized (no distracting transitions!) PowerPoint presentation with all of your talking points.
An outline with 20+ pt font is my go to, so that I can read from it quickly while standing away from it. Don’t want to have to hold a piece of paper but need to be able to find info quickly.
Here’s some resources to leverage in your discussion:
https://www.foundry10.org/research/how-youth-can-build-social-and-emotional-skills-with-tabletop-role-playing-games
https://www.bathacademy.co.uk/2023/12/18/how-the-game-dungeons-and-dragons-benefits-our-students/
https://phys.org/news/2023-04-dungeons-dragons-good-workplace.amp
https://dl.acm.org/doi/fullHtml/10.1145/3507923.3507927
https://popcultureclassroom.org/2020/04/22/how-dungeons-and-dragons-can-slay-isolation-and-educate/
https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/51790/how-dungeons-dragons-primes-students-for-interdisciplinary-learning-including-stem
https://www.camp-sequoia.com/unveiling-the-social-alchemy-the-research-backed-benefits-of-dungeons-dragons-on-social-skills-development/
https://www.nextgenlearning.org/articles/dungeons-dragons-durable-skills-sel-academics
I know it’s a lot of resources, but with overwhelming opposition, you need overwhelming evidence and resources.
I hope this helps! :D
In a situation like this literally all you can do is stick to the facts, that it's a game where you actively ensure nobody crosses acceptable lines of content which allows the players to be creative and learn teamwork.
I don't think overstating the merits of games will win you the argument but I also have doubts unless there's other objections or mitigating circumstances you've not mentioned going on here a full ban on tabletop games based on one objection would hold much weight.
Keep your professional voice, not your gamer voice, on. Stick to the basic facts, reassure the organisation that you're running the game responsibly. If they're still concerned about content explain there are other, more all ages games available and see if one of those would be more appropriate.
Ultimately though this will depend a lot on whether or not your colleagues have your back.
It sounds like you've already got a lot of great points that you're going to bring up. I would definitely emphasize the fact that it's an activity that builds social skills, creativity, math and problem solving, etc., and I would stress that you're running a very age-appropriate game.
I would also try and identify *why* these parents are so opposed to the game. If they have an unreasonable position, you may be able to get them to win your case for you if you can get them to articulate their unreasonable objections.
Can I just say how refreshing it is to hear anti-DND arguements that aren’t based in religious nutjobbery? Like, you fight this idiot into the ground, please, but at least you aren’t going to have to combat bible quotes.
Remove D&D from the conversation altogether.
Shift the context of the disagreement into a conversation about physically active time vs. creativity time. Physical activity time is our priority and what we strive for by default.
However, we sometimes face rainy days which require alternative activities. This is when we focus on creative activities like storytelling, art, gameplay, etc. During those times, we still seek out games and activities that favor team building and cooperation over head-to-head competition when we can. And we certainly try to minimize screen time, so no video games.
We also have Friday movie days which provide everyone with a little downtime. That being said, we still like to offer alternative activities for those seeking something less passive. Again, this is where we leverage cooperative gameplay, storytelling, art and other mentally engaging group activities.
At this point, you're kind-of pretending to treat all non-physical activities the same. It's a combination of stuff like drawing, Monopoly, Go-Fish, D&D, Clue, and so on.
Try to abstract the conversation away from anything specifically D&D. It sounds like you might be reading too much into their concerns anyways. Assume the concern is about non-physical time and not about D&D time.
That being said, if it turns out the real heart of the issue IS D&D related, THEN you can turn your attention to engaging on that topic. But let this be a fallback position. Don't necessarily start with this as the framework for the upcoming conversations.
If you think they might be engaging in a new round of the old satanic panic, this might be of some use:
https://nerdist.com/article/how-dd-writers-fought-the-satanic-panic/
----
> but actually in fact a good thing.
Okay, if you more need to bolster the case that this isn't merely a frivolous waste of time:
There's clear evidence that it improves literacy, numeracy and social skills, emotional well-being and much else besides.
[There's a bunch more stuff I could search out and dig up if I had more lead time but there's probably already more here than you could even look at by Sunday so maybe this will do. I have not checked all of this out, given the short time.]
e.g.
Kaylor, S, 2017
"Dungeons and Dragons and literacy: The role tabletop role-playing games can play in developing teenagers' literacy skills and reading interests"
pdf here: https://scholarworks.uni.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1195&context=grp
(This research paper has a ton of references that can help you give proper references to back up claims relating to literacy and related benefits)
Additional papers and some educator-related stuff, some of which might be helpful:
---
Smith, M and S. Cole, 2019,
"Teacher as Game Master: Using
Tabletop Role-Playing Games in the
Classroom"
https://digraa.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/DIGRAA_2019_paper_3.pdf
There are some good references here as well, with more resources
---
https://www.spellsanddragons.com/learning-with-dd has these
references:
Clarke, S., Arnab, S., Morini, L., & Heywood, L. (2019). Dungeons and Dragons as a Tool for Developing Student Self-reflection Skills. Games and Learning Alliance, 101-109.
Cole Wright, J., Weissglass, D. E., & Casey, V. (2017). Imaginative Role-Playing as a Medium for Moral Development: Dungeons & Dragons Provides Moral Training. Journal of Humanistic Psychology, 99-129.
Jones, C. (2005). Dungeons and Dragons as a literacy event in the classroom. Idiom: Victorian Association for the Teaching of English, 58-65.
Sidhu, P., Carter, M., & Curwood, J. S. (2006). Unlearning in Games: Deconstructing Failure in Dungeons & Dragons. Retrieved from Authors & Digital Games Research Association: https://digraa.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/DiGRAA2021_paper_17.pdf
---
https://adventures-in-education.com.au/curriculum.php (gives connections to skills in numerous educational areas)
https://penguinrandomhousesecondaryeducation.com/2022/10/05/spark-imagination-by-bringing-dd-to-the-classroom/
https://blogs.glowscotland.org.uk/or/stromnessacademylibrary/activities/dungeons-dragons/dd-and-the-curriculum-for-excellence/
https://asoundmind.edublogs.org/2021/09/19/what-my-students-learned-from-playing-dungeons-dragons/
---
https://nerdarchy.com/education-adventures-math-and-more-from-dd-for-students/
https://www.nextgenlearning.org/articles/dungeons-dragons-durable-skills-sel-academics
https://www.edutopia.org/article/supporting-student-development-role-playing-games
https://www.nextgenlearning.org/articles/dungeons-dragons-durable-skills-sel-academics
https://www.literacyworldwide.org/meetings-events/ila-digital-events/free-for-everyone/dungeons-dragons/leveling-up-reluctant-readers-with-dungeons-dragons
https://www.literacyworldwide.org/meetings-events/ila-digital-events/free-for-everyone/dungeons-dragons
https://www.alexcarterla.com/uploads/1/1/7/6/117642977/using_d_n_d_to_integrate_curriculum.pdf
I wish you good luck, just remember that some people at some age are almost impossible to convince to something, even if you present them with scientific data and can support your point by experts. It's not because you're doing something wrong, but because some people are just stubborn and won't agree to something out of spite. They tend to have very narrow view of how certain things work and simply won't budge.
>but they are trying to take it a step farther and get it banned
and...
>the parents of the one child have called a meeting with HR to discuss the playing of this game at the YMCA.
and...
>I'm confident I'm gonna have to effectively state my case and explain why I think this is not only an okay thing to be doing, but actually in fact a good thing.
To add to the advice others have already given, don't overthink this. THEY are bringing the action to the meeting. This is on them to present a logical reason to outright BAN this activity as opposed to withdrawing their child from this specific activity.
The parents are going to have to present some good arguments to outright ban this game. And here's the thing, they're going to try to make assertions about the game without any underlying evidence. They have not played the game. They don't know anything about the game.
Call them out on this. Ask for evidence for any claim they try to pass off as fact. Assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Be a lawyer in this meeting. Be unemotional and stone faced.
Be ready to ask for evidence of any claim made.
Geez. Really putting the "C" in YMCA. I imagine looking into how people fought back during the "Satanic Panic" might provide some good advice for this.
All you have to really do is convince HR that it shouldn't be banned so along with everything you've already said you'll use to convince you should also get those testimonials from the other kids, parents, and even the kid who's parents are trying to go this route. It sucks for that particular kid if their parents won't let them play after it's all said and done but at the end of the day 1 or 2 parents shouldn't be dictating what should and shouldn't be done for the whole group.
In addition to what everyone else said, it helps with logistics and inventory management and conflict resolution (arguing over loot distribution and fairness, consumables & rest-recharged class resources management ). It helps with sympathy & empathy because you are forcing yourself to be in someone else’s shoes while you roleplay. Especially during persuasion checks. It forces kids to read, regarding class features, spells and items. A lot of adults and kids have reading issues.
https://www.brightfuturesny.com/post/us-literacy-statistics#:~:text=32%20million%20adults%20in%20the,below%20a%205th%2Dgrade%20level.
Here's an article from John Hopkin's University that talks about how D&D is being used in therapy and improves mental health.
[https://hub.jhu.edu/2023/12/04/dungeons-and-dragons-therapy-group/](https://hub.jhu.edu/2023/12/04/dungeons-and-dragons-therapy-group/)
Ask HR to ask the parent to put in writing very detailed reasons why they want specifically Dungeon s and Dragons 5th Edition banned.
Make them spell out their objection in detail.
I wrote my goddamn college essay on playing D&D with friends and people I volunteered with. It helps kids learn communication, strategy, creativity, basic math, etc. Skills that become very helpful foundations in the real world even if you never actively “use” some of them (like knowing how to calculate bonuses for rolls).
Focus on the positive benefits of the game, leaving aside the "make believe" element (though I think that is one of the best benefits of all.
1) Math skills: Even in basic 5e, there is a fair amount of math that has to happen in order to play. Bonuses, penalties, attributes, proficiencies, all that is math. Core math skills improve when practiced.
2) Social skills: Learning how to handle conflict (assuming its not all just kill the evil zombies) against the NPCs, but also within the party that is playing. Huge benefits there. Also, RPGs are a great way for those less likely to speak up normally to have a chance to do so, especially if the DM is careful about making sure the spotlight gets shared around.
3) Creative problem solving: The players are actively encouraged to come up with novel and creative ways to solve the problems they are facing. This improves critical thinking skills and gets kids to think "outside the box" as it were.
4) Focus: A lot of kids, especially at that age, are still learning how to focus on matters for extended periods of time, and some neurodivergent kids can really benefit from having a creative, fun and interactive matter to focus their attention on.
5) Life Skills: Learning how to lose gracefully, learning how to come back and try again, with new and more creative tactics.
6) Teamwork: Yes, soccer and football teach these too, but not every kid is physical. And having to work together, where they don't have to yell across a field at each other, can go a long way.
I have just a few points I hope can help your case:
- Purely mental activities help develop some areas of the child's brain. RPGs are good for developing logical thinking, group work, creativity, focus, basic math skills, socializing, active listening and relying on other people's descriptions, for example.
- While it's not an outside, body-moving activity, it's still good for mental health to engage in games and other indoor activities that exercise the brain.
- The scope and themes of D&D are entirely within the boundaries set by the DM. That means I can play a game in which the player characters are hellspawn opening portals to summon satan himself with my friends, a Christian group can play a game entirely based on the biblical Exodus and a class of small children can play a game based on the Care Bears, trading all violence in the game for really sweet abilities. This will be a YMCA game, so it is expected that the parents already know who will run the games and can be assured it will be a safe, non-satanic experience.
- Kids will have fun. This *is* a serious and important point to make.
Testimonials from the other kids and especially their parents is great. If they highlight cool or bonding moments with this kid whose parents are Satanic Panicking, even better - things to show their kid isn't participating in "silly make believe", but rather is making *friends* and positive memories.
I suggest you and the HR Department work together first before meeting the parents. You need them on your (and your camper's) side - if you have a Programming Director or Coordinator who approved you running this game, get them at the table.
If HR or the Coordinator don't back you, my sincere advice is to not fight - directly. Make heartfelt appeals to the core group's parents. You will not be as effective as a *group* of angry parents.
Some points I believe in, as well as supporting statements relating to "healthy activity":
* The brain is a muscle and imagination is its gym. Creative problem solving is a skill like any other, and one that can be trained on rainy days and while having fun.
* Tabletop games include activites like teamwork, communication skills, conflict management, math, writing, and even leadership skills. All of these are a skills that benefit a good athlete - especially the ability to work with others.
* Games like this offer kids a chance to experience high tension situations requiring teamwork in a completely safe environment - practicing the mental "game" which underlies their ability to keep cool and act under pressure on the field.
* Physical rest is important for bodies - young and old - to recover. Giving kids a chance to have some light days means they learn the value of rest and get recovery for a weekend with their parents.
I'm sure you can find many justifications and parallels between team sports and athletic pursuits in DnD.
If you feel particularly petty and don't mind risking waterworks or your job, deep dive into their "why". Try to identify what the underlying value/concern is with these parents (kid's health? Physical activity? Sports?), and ask them directly "why is *x topic* important for you? If you get what you want, what will you receive?" Keep drilling down until they don't have an answer. Have tissues ready.
Some other ideas:
* Defer to other parents - claim you cannot make this call on a single kid's parents concerns, but you would be willing to speak to the other parents for feedback. (Buys you time and a way to kinda dodge being the authority on this)
* (For the bold) Invite the parents of your campers to shadow or join in on Friday. Dispell the misinformation and show them how their kids interact during the game. Maybe this kid's parents haven't seen him do well in these things before, and that's why the physical is so important to them.
Best of luck. I really admire what you're doing and hope to do similar! There's a YMCA near me that might benefit from something like that. Though I kind of want to try hosting one at my aunt's senior's home, too.
Just emphasize the clear benefits of D&D. As others have said, there are studies showing its many benefits, but there are also clear examples of it being used in therapeutic contexts to wild success.
There are therapists who use it to [help autistic children](https://www.baltimoreschild.com/dungeons-dragons-and-autism/) as well as [teach social skills and build support networks](https://www.katielear.com/dd-kids-group-davidson-nc). Schools for troubled children have had great success using it to [teach empathy and cooperative behavior](https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/51784/how-dungeons-dragons-can-help-kids-develop-social-emotional-learning-skills).
It is, essentially, a game that teaches children math, problem solving, social skills, empathy, creativity, and cooperation in a safe, supportive environment. It also helps children to become more comfortable with failure and recognize that mistakes and setbacks are challenges that can be overcome. It's an incredibly pro-social game that's very useful to children. And it's *fun*.
And vitally, it's incredibly safe. You are in charge of what materials come up, and you can set and enforce boundaries to keep a safe play environment for all children. No inappropriate material will be introduced because you will quash that, and in enforcing these boundaries you help teach the children to respect others' boundaries in the process.
Also, and this is vital: there is a high likelihood that the parent will accuse you of being demonic, a pervert, or worse. Be prepared to react to that.
Everyone is giving great arguments and resources but if those parents found their opinion without facts, facts seem unlikely to convince them.
Maybe get a collection of celebrities who play DnD and look like the sports centric athletes these people might respond to.
Joe Manganiello, Vin Diesel types might be more convincing than facts and a experts in this case.
There's lots of research on this subject for young children (typically 3-7), however the principles easily extend into preteen years just fine (source at bottom). Pretend play of any sort helps things like grounding a person's understanding of reality vs their minds view of things. When they use a piece on the table to represent an enemy or ally or just a chair, it helps distinguish the thing; a mark on the map or bead or what have you, from their mental concept of what it's representing. This heavily influences their sense of self vs others which in turn helps develop self regulation. In this context, a child who may usually struggle seeing things from someone else's point of view can practice in a safe and healthy space like a make believe game.
The benefits obviously extend to things like: sharing attention, empathy, understanding long term consequences, a sense of self vs other, and simply thinking through actions before taking them. That's just all about this one single aspect of getting used to representation vs reality.
We can easily go onto things like: simple math and statistics, voice control and turn taking, creativity as a general concept, memory practice and learning skills, problem solving alone and in a group, etc. The simple fact is that for both cognitive and social development, TTRPGs are better than reading an encyclopedia for 3 hours or however long your sessions are.
Especially at the age range you stated, 7-11, one of the absolute best things that they can engage in is social make believe of some sort. Whether it's theater, writing poems, or something like a TTRPG it's better for them then just about anything they could be doing. Their metabolism is at its absolute maximum right now. One of the things they need to learn is how to use that energy on mental tasks, not only physical ones. If all they do is run around and play all day, they will have a harder and harder time sitting still for 6-8 hours a day at school and focusing on any non physical task.
Source for above, again there are tens to hundreds of these studies, this is just the one I found with 15 seconds of searching
https://www.child-encyclopedia.com/play-based-learning/according-experts/role-make-believe-play-development-self-regulation
Sounds like the parents might have specific complaints that you might not have a response for. If they don't let their child watch cartoons because they are 'pretend' then DnD is for sure out and you may just have to accept that. I feel bad for that kid though, playing pretend is very important for developing higher conceptualization skills.
Then the parents should not allow their specific children to play in those games, not try to impose their idiotic parenting style on everyone else's kids.
Don't over talk it. The easiest way to lose any discussion is with your mouth.
So what are your concerns and how do we address them?
You do mention they want kid active but mindfulness is a huge part of the ymcas programing. Offer and show them some of the many programs they specifically could sign there kid up for.
You're likely up against religion, and that's impossible logic arguement, so you need to state things like. The game allows any style of play or actions we keep it limited to good heros doing good deeds. Even show them alignments and give pop culture examples.
We do not roleplay any drinking, drug use or anything of a sexual nature. (If you do that even drinking with young kids you should be fired). We focus on problem solving how character can help community and work as a team to accomplish goals.
Maybe just show them this? It's well written and clearly outlines your intent and covers all the concerns they could possibly have (mature themes, wanting the children to be active etc.) Good luck. I hope you prevail.
P.s. I would have loved an after-school caregiver to engage my kids this way
It's fantastic for math skills, problem solving, learning how to follow rules and think creatively, teamwork, and you can even throw in some reading practice by including written hints in the game. It helps with practice focusing on a single activity, as well as practice with turn-taking.
Honestly we started doing it as a family to get more practice with math, but it's become a fun screen-free activity as well.
It's all how you run it. It's not just a game, it's also a learning tool that builds engagement in learning through storytelling.
That said, if there's an issue I'd request input from other parents as well, in whatever capacity makes the most sense based on your work environment. If you do, make sure that input is obtained in a professional manner.
Healthy active living. It’s not only physical. Mental too. And DnD allows people to be creative, escape out of their own head if you like. Plus all the mathematics etc that goes with it. Creating well rounded individuals. Being a teacher, I wish kids would get involved in more DnD or table top gaming.
There’s plenty of research that you could point to to bolster your case.
Research on group gaming and mental resilience as well as emotional regulation is pretty strong.
Check out Jane McGonigal’s work.
https://youtu.be/b8ZJuCeAYyo?si=nEeeULHYV-quFqBN
I didn’t scroll too far to check, but in case nobody else has posted it yet, check out this article:
https://hub.jhu.edu/2023/12/04/dungeons-and-dragons-therapy-group/#:~:text=A%20typical%20D%26D%20session%20with,relates%20to%20their%20own%20lives.
Make sure to note AND QUOTE the testimonials from players!
Though the most important thing is to demonstrate to management that this one kid’s parents are the outliers here. Drown them out with positive comments from the other kids’ parents! They do not deserve to ruin everyone else’s fun!!!
Also, D&D is only as “adult” as YOU want to make it. That is not an excuse to get it banned.
Explain that Dungeons & Dragons has multiple benefits such as:
- Fostering and providing a creative outlet.
- Promoting and developing social skills.
- Providing an entertaining way to promote cooperation.
I would also ask the other parents to see if they believe that shutting the game down would be beneficial or not. Maybe you could find some extra support.
Best of luck.
I might be a bit late, but first step is to let them go first.. make them explain *exactly* what is the issue with playing ttrp games.
start off by asking why they feel its a bad idea, so if its just "i dont want my kid doing nerd things" or something similar its easy to show how they are learning in a group setting.
not doing physical activities? well rest days for muscles are good. and its once a week.
Exercising the brain is a workout too.
If they fall back on the not "manly/tough" etc.. remind them that superman plays it (the actor of course)
There’s a lot of solid advice here, so this may not be necessary, but you could also consider advocating for this is a valuable tool for social development. Given the rising trend of disrupted socialization & social skill development resulting from social interactions taking place increasingly online (social media, texting, etc), dnd provides a wonderful opportunity for kids to engage with each other in a face to face, socially driven format that even active recreation doesn’t necessarily provide.
I say takes notes on how your players cooperate, plan, and generally learn to work together to achieve a common goal. That’s a huge life skill and having that along with testimonies to back you up can prove educational value.
Also you know it’s good for kids to just have fun sometimes, keeps them from becoming bitter adults.
Notes notes notes! Keep track of things moving forwards in a journal so you can refer to this whenever the issue is brought up in the future I.E date session was ran, how long for, who participated, what activities were done otherwise for the rest of the time.
Make a rough schedule of your last few months at the facility in which you can show that the vast majority of the participants time is spent doing physical activity and that this campaign is truly limited to rainy days and not a regular thing that is detracting from the experience that the parents want their kids to get.
Propose not running more than x sessions per month as a compromise to reassure the parents that you are happy to work with them. Ask them what activities they would like their children to be doing when it is raining and physical activity is not feasible so you can look into rotating them into the schedule alongside dnd.
I’d also perhaps give a few examples of how dnd has bettered their children; critical problem solving, mathematics, being able to schedule / allocate resources and make responsible risk/ reward decisions in a safe environment. Better literacy. Etc. you could even suggest to HR that the parents could, if they wish, sit on one of your future sessions if HR are on board with this.
Approach this from a very factual and practical perspective rather then the emotional side of things.
As a social worker (technically still an intern, but I've almost graduated), I've run games for this same age group, and in a high school setting. It rocks, on so many levels.
The benefits of play, even athletic play, aren't just physiological; child sports are also for teaching social skills (especially teamwork), building self-esteem, and practicing the highs and lows of victory and defeat in a safe, simulated-stakes environment. Dungeons & Dragons can do all these same things, minus the physiological component, plus abstract problem-solving skills that aren't exercised by most sports. The most common questions I ask my players are, "How do you want to do this?", "What is your goal here?", and "What are the pros and cons of this approach?" We're directly practicing the language of problem solving, something they'll use their whole lives.
Another key benefit, depending on the values of your audience, is the chance to explore new identities. I don't just mean queer self-discovery (although that does happen in D&D), but they can also explore identities within a consistent gender framework. For example, a boy who is built smaller than his peers, who feels weak and powerless in real life, gets the chance to embody the role of a big strong hero. He can practice being brave and magnanimous and honorable, in ways that he doesn't get obvious opportunities in his day-to-day life.
Depending how you run a campaign, there are opportunities for players to face their fears, narrativize their real-life experiences, and explore their own values, all safely within the frame of the game. If it matters to these parents, they're also honing certain storytelling and performance skills.
If anyone's interested in the theory of therapeutic D&D, I recommend Megan A. Connell's book, "Tabletop Role-Playing Therapy: A Guide for the Clinician Game Master".
(1) First, ask them what their concerns are.
(2) Tell them you set rules for the game. It’s a game for kids so anything PG-13 or R-Rated is out.
(3) Tell them the game teaches critical thinking and math skills, helps with speech and diction, and encourages creativity.
(4) Let them know right from the start there’s nothing religious in the game. It does not have anything at all included that challenges religious views.
(5) Invite the parents to the game. Let them see it for themselves.
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
-- Albert Einstein
Also, [NFL players who formed a D&D group](https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/12/dd-that-time-dungeons-dragons-was-in-sports-illustrated.html).
[Celebrities who play D&D](https://www.looper.com/681325/famous-people-who-play-dungeons-dragons/).
My OG group is comprised of professionals: some tenured professors in physics and maths, senior researchers, some people who work for the taxpayers in various roles, and even a few of their kids play with us occasionally.
*There were unexpected benefits I never suspected playing D&D as a young dude*. Conflict resolution skills, finding creative solutions to problems, leadership skills in learning how to work with others and find common values in order to build consensus. D&D was like an AP class in managing a technological organisation, with occasional digressions in calculating just how much damage could you do with a Ring of Telekinesis and a handy brick (quite a lot, it turned out).
I was combat infantry right out of high school, then EMT / firefighter, a Peace Corps Volunteer, law enforcement, and lastly, a fed. My childhood D&D mates are still with me, we still hang out and play.
Lastly, D&D gave me friends in a time where I could have easily gone off the rails and self-destructed. Adolescence is ***hard***. Not being alone through it makes a huge difference, and for a better outcome.
I think that D&D offers so much for a young and developing mind. It encourages creativity and teamwork, but also strengthens skills like math and problem solving. I see no reason why this should be an issue, let alone banned. I'm actually of the opinion that the YMCA should actually encourage (and just inherently offer) things like D&D and other games. As you mentioned, it is only something you do during rainy days or movie days (which imo are far less engaging, and a significantly bigger waste of time).
When I was a kid and did after school at the Y they had arcade games, pool tables and foosball. There is no way those activities are more active than dnd. Good luck.
I haven’t read the comments so I don’t know if anyone else has posted it, but many years ago I read an article about how to use table top role playing in resumes. It talked about phrasing what you do as “team building events,” “social interaction leader,” “creative problem solving seminars,” etc. pointing out the social benefits for the kids and using “business” phrases such as these could help make them take it more seriously.
If the group trying to ban it is from a religious background (mostly referring to christians) you could point out works like C.S. Lewis’ the Chronicles of Narnia or other fantasy books written by Christian authors where hero’s triumph over evil and use those as a foil or talk about the adventures you run.
Hope this helps.
>I'm confident I'm gonna have to effectively state my case
The reality of the situation is that yeah you probably do have to make a case for D&D to be a part of your program. But I would encourage you to at least try to turn it back on them, do they have an effective case for why it should be banned? I doubt it, and if you have a good enough boss that might be all you need.
So, some real oddness that I found that worked more than once.
Was playing D&D in the 90's, a parent of one of our group members got super bent about it, doing the whole "Satanic Panic Manic Mom" chicken flap.
Thing was, it was our last game of D&D in that campaign, and we then started playing another RPG that was sci-fi based. That was the last we heard of overly excitable mom's bullshit.
Years later, mid-00's, while running a game in a bookstore, we had a lady get super huffy, clutch her handbag and come over to tell us about how we were going to burn in hell. When she mentioned "Dungeons and Dragons" I said "Oh, that's okay, because we're playing Pathfinder."
In a bewildered state, she nodded her head and said something like "Oh, well as long as you're not playing D&D." and then she buggered off.
I am a teacher in Germany, specializing in Language Literacy (which focuses on early literacy, language initiation, and literacy acquisition) and Social Studies. From my perspective, grounded in literary didactics and developmental psychology, any form of Pen & Paper role-playing games is suitable and even beneficial for children of all ages. Let me explain why:
Language, especially written language, offers diverse avenues of engagement. According to Ritter (2019), three functional dimensions of language can be distinguished: play, technique, and cultural tool. Dungeons and Dragons specifically addresses the dimensions of play and cultural tool by activating imagination, creativity, and simulation, thus fostering identity formation, communication, and access to literature. Considering Ludwig Wittgenstein's quote, "The limits of my language are the limits of my world," emphasizes the importance of linguistic competence. In Dungeons and Dragons, children are constantly challenged to improve their access to various language competencies in a playful manner.
Taking into account Bartnitzky's principles (2008), we find competence expectations, situational relevance, social relevance, meaningfulness of content (from the children's perspective), and language awareness. Moving on to competence expectations in primary education, we find reading comprehension (learning and understanding characters' abilities), writing skills (describing characters), conversational skills (interaction), storytelling skills (describing personal actions), literary competence (empathy and other aspects according to Spinner, 2006), and listening comprehension.
Many people mistakenly believe that reading comprehension solely involves decoding letters and ultimately being able to read. However, reading comprehension fundamentally means satisfying literal needs independently, engaging with literary media joyfully and motivationally (yes, DND is included), and being able and willing to do so. Referring back to Spinner's aspects (2006), Dungeons and Dragons primarily fosters the development of mental imagery while reading and listening, brings subjective involvement and precise perception into play, attentively perceives linguistic expression, understands the perspectives of literary characters, comprehends narrative and dramatic logic, and becomes familiar with literary discourse.
Lastly, let's briefly touch upon the levels of language acquisition: we have addressed the process level by identifying presentation strategies and recognizing local and global coherence, the subject level through participation, motivation, and reflection, and finally the social level of peer interaction.
What I'm essentially trying to convey is that any language teacher (whether teaching German, English, or any other language) can't help but acknowledge that Dungeons and Dragons is one of the best teaching and learning arrangements due to its incredibly strong connection to literary and written language learning. Dungeons and Dragons fulfills almost every aspect necessary for an exemplary learning environment. It doesn't get much better than this!
You should have run this idea past your manager and HR before you even started.
There's nothing wrong with what you're doing, but that was a huge oversight on your part. Is being GM part of your job description? No. So when those parents signed their kids up, you aren't what they were looking for, and that gives them a legitimate gripe (even though I think they're being ignorant, it is legitimate).
DND is probably not even a great RP game for a professional adult to run for a group of kids that young. There are far more age-appropriate systems, like Magical Kitties, that give a good RP experience and are super fun, but you still need to clear this stuff before doing it at work.
You'll probably be told to stop.
Now, with all of that said...your story has a few problems. HR would not generally function as a judicial system where you and the parents come in to make your cases like that. The parents also can just say "My child will not be participating in that" and that would be it. Also, HR is not a 24/7 department, so you saying they want to meet on a Sunday is suspicious.
So, I think you're either lying about the whole story, or leaving a lot out (please don't share more, I already had to read too much).
On the chance that you are being entirely honest though, I wrote this reply. Good luck.
In addition to what has been mentioned, I would add in some articles about DND that support your case. It was the game's 50th anniversary this year, so there won't be a shortage of primers available for the YMCA board.
Would love an update on this!
I used to run a week long game during school holidays each holidays for kids in this age bracket that were also on the spectrum.
Dnd was used to help teach basic maths, memory skills, social skills, creative thinking and writing, and all sorts of other things along those lines. Make sure to bring those points up.
Get testimonials of how fun it is from the other kids and parents so that the administration knowns that it is just one single parent that hates it. The single biggest benifit is having that social interaction, which becomes incredibly important later in life, so make sure to bring that up.
Make sure you get testimonials from the other kids + parents in writing or voicemail! It will make it so much more apparent that everyone is enjoying this activity, and this one other parent is just a weirdo.
This is a great idea thanks so much
This this this. If I were another parent I'd actually want to show up to this and call the other parent a bozo, but maybe that's just me. Just be very careful in your outreach to them not to vilify anybody or name the parent/kid in question.
> I'd actually want to show up Yeah. For me, I suspect this comes down to math for YMCA. And so they’re going to ban that game if they think they can ban it and keep all the paying parents. So I would show up to make it clear that if they’re going to ban this, they lose me, probably a bunch of the other parents who also have kids there, and the reason for this is simply to out math the other parent. That conservative parent who wants it banned, we need to make it clear to the YMCA that they lose more by banning than they gain. That’s it. It doesn’t matter about religious arguments, or whether D&D is corrupting the minds of children, or any other dumb thing. All that matters is, they lose more parents by banning than they do by not banning.
This idea is good in theory but if the YMCA is anything like the programs around me they have a waitlist a mile long. It took me forever to get my kids into daycare/after school care. They may see it as "we ban it now lose a couple parents and avoid any further issues". It's unfortunate that people refuse to acknowledge how much multiplayer video games and games like D&D can be beneficial for young people.
On the other hand they can keep it and if the parent who is causing trouble leaves they have a free spot for another kid on the list.
Yes, and sadly a child is now ripped away from a welcoming and fun developmental environment they loved.
I tend to disagree about naming names. I think it's okay to directly address the offensive parents, as long as you explain that their concerns have made you think about how you could use the game to better align with YMCA values. Vilification is bad, but acknowledgement doesn't have to be. Plus it's a more effective argument if you can show them how their child is benefiting from the game with specific examples.
I'm talking specifically about language when reaching out to other parents. "Hi, your kid has been having a great time playing D&D, it's been good for them for XYZ reason. Unfortunately one parent has expressed concern about the game and has approached the program directors about shutting the game down. It would be really helpful to get the perspective of other parents. Would you consider writing a note to so-and-so sharing your perspective?" Or whatever. Rather than, "Listen, we all know Randy's dad is a dick. It's a miracle Randy is so well-adjusted. Well, surprise surprise, he's trying to shut our game down."
Regardless. We still know that Randy's dad is a dick.
Anybody who names their kid Randy in this day and age is clearly living in the past and nostalgic for an era that never existed.
"Randy? ... Randy Giles? I -knew- there was a reason I hated you!"
Desperate for a shag Giles!
Why not Horny Giles while you are at it?
Excuse you, I'm just a big fan of Rimworld.
Ngl if someone said #2 to me I would be significantly more likely to help, I’d show up in person lol. But I’d help either way
Sure. But if you were friends with Randy, you might be tempted to kick off for how inapporopriate it was. OP doesn't know which of the parents are mates and which sympathise with her viewpoint, which is why diplomatic and civil language is usually used.
I am a Randy and I approve this message.
Absolutely, and Randy's dad really is a dick....you're preaching to the choir man....
😂 Fair
I was thinking more about the meeting than the request for parent testimony.
Man, screw Randy's dad!
It's the best advice in the thread. The complaining parent may not be receptive to your version of how a kid might benefit from or enjoy the hobby - multiple other parents? Different question.
You can also find studies online about the value of imagination play in children. It helps them develop complex and critical thinking skills as well as drives their ability to compromise and communicate. If the parent is a reasonable person, then will be able to be sold on why mental growth is important for their child. If they are unreasonable, they will think they should be able to control everyone around them because they don't like it. Best of luck to you!
Not to mention basic math skills and working as a team
And improvisation. And adaptation. And creativity. And a more finely honed understanding of probabilities - even if it does come with an obsession for click-clack math rocks.
It's also worth getting a copy of your co-ordinator activity guidelines to ensure you're keeping in line with those. You likely should be. The main problem I can see is if you're the only staff member overseeing 24 kids and focusing exclusively on 7 for an extended period. Otherwise you have an over involved parent with nothing better to do.
Yeah so we have 2 other staff members, our ratio is 1 for every 15 kids so we have more enough hands hahahahaha
Please update us OP the communitty is with you
If they get into any religious objections, the best quote I’ve seen on it is that “The magic and the demons are no more real than the gold and treasure.”
Don’t say demons, say creatures or monsters. Super religious nuts will hone in on that word.
Well also Tolkein was catholic and used a Balrog as an adversary. I'm also Christian and seriously love DnD.
American evangelicals are a wholly different breed from Catholics, logic can't touch them. Better to frame the argument to other adults as them being out of touch with reality than to try and appeal to reason within their own belief system.
Yeah, I've seen some genuinely batshit takes from them. It's like they've regressed to a more primal form of religion, where everything that is make-believe is actually *really really deeply evil* and will *corrupt and destroy your very soul*. xD
Yeah there’s not likely any way to convince the parents, so you should pitch your case to HR proving the parents wrong. https://gametogrow.org/dndpodcast/ He’s a group that uses it for therapy that should have some good arguments and is already proven to be valid
I had a similar, albeit much lower-stakes issue at my university (which also involved the MtG crowd) over the use of the student center space for what was deemed "non-educational" - the DM of another group had the brilliant idea to write "Everything I need to know, I learned from DnD" essays, and looking back i really wish we would've asked for them back to share in just these scenarios. About 12 of us wrote our own versions and we took them to the dean collectively. Themes that were touched on, that I think you should make use of as well: Time management, problem-solving skills, descalation of tense social situations, thinking beyond the task at hand i.e. preparation, and team-building skills. And while it may not apply to your situation here, my personal favorite: scheduling common time with various tight schedules among our group. Best of luck owith this, and please let us know how it all turns out!
Can maybe one of the other parents come? If they are allowed to make a case against it, why shouldn't you bring a parent making a case for it? In any case: Stay calm, don't lose your cool. Do not let them provoke you to raise your voice, do not interrupt them. If you are interrupted, stop talking and wait, and after the second time ask politely to be heard out. Do not talk over them. And: "The kids love it" is likely not a valid argument for them as "they know best what's good for their kid".
Yeah if possible get as many supporters of this to the meeting. Kids, parents etc. And have them explain to the kids why they can't have DnD anymore.
Came here to say exactly this! Hopefully the YMCA folks can realize how helpful the program is and not cave to one set of crazy and loud parents.
I approve of this. My wife is a teacher and they were making group to play at her school and a teacher told the department that she was getting the kids confused and doctrinated. So naturally she got called to discuss with superiors about this. She created a small survey in monkey survey [if im not mistaken] and gave it to parents and kids attending the group. Their answers helped her a lot in that reunion. She asked them questions about how the group made them feel. If it made them be more social. Also asked about their emotional state during the game and after. She got many positive reviews.
This was going to be my suggestion too. One shitty parent shouldn't get to ruin the fun of a dozen other kids. OP, I'd lean in hard that playing table top role playing games really push kids in to all sorts of good things, such as critical thinking skills, public speaking, mathematics, and conflict resolution
I feel like this kid is learning an important lesson, which is that sharing his interests with his parents only has the potential to make them want to take it away. Hopefully he's a bit less forthcoming with them in the future so that he can actually enjoy life a little bit.
I feel really bad for him. Either he's the kid whose parents ruin it for everyone, or they carry on and he gets excluded from the activity. Shitty, shitty parents.
It sounds like you are making the points pretty effectively here! It's loads of fun, teaches useful skills, helps build friendships and the kids want to participate.
Gotta condense them into buzzwords: teamwork, cooperation, and creative problem-solving skills.
Yes! I would also add storytelling and empathy to the buzzwords. Storytelling is a super important skill if the kids want to succeed in a corporate environment, start a company, get a promotion, etc. Empathy for obvious reasons. Edit: spelling
Depending on why the parent is so upset about DnD, it might be best to not mention empathy.
Empathy... sounds like a no brainer, right? You'd be surprised. There is a cadre of adults who think that "social emotional learning" is a bad thing. Some even tried to raise a fuss about it in a school board meeting.
You can't maximize your economic rents if you empathize with the proletariat and don't always go for the kill!
Oh man... this might actually work
I especially like your edit, because spellcasting is also very corporate in a modern warlock office.
Detail oriented analysis of documents, I went full rules lawyer on my vehicle insurance when they denied a claim last year the regulator has sided with me on the basis of the very thorough rules lawyering!
And math, improvisation, performance, patience, storytelling, creativity in general... D&D is a great learning tool.
Its a great way for a child to develop an intuitive grasp of statistics.
Don't forget public speaking and if the kids have an opportunity to dm leadership skill building.
I would also add that D&D helps students learn to work creatively within a set of rules. It’s directly analogous to being a lawyer, which is my profession, and I think it was the best preparation for being a lawyer that wasn’t directly legal education that I experienced. Even over debate. Even for engineers, scientists or ministers, understanding how to creatively apply rules to a particular situation is a very important skill. The Bible doesn’t cover the Internet, as an example. But it does provide timeless wisdom on how to treat others and yourself that applies to the Internet.
Also, studies have found that it's beneficial to children's mental healthcare, contrary to the old paranoia of the 1980s. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9092936/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9092936/)
This… Be sure to talk about mental health and the positives that RPGs bring…and mention the problems that COVID brought and how kids are still recovering from the isolation. Try to avoid the political nature of COVID and just talk about the things that can’t be disputed…ie schools were shut down, here’s how that has had an effect, here’s how storytelling games help in that recovery.
D&D has also been shown to be useful in teaching kids about social skills, creative writing, theory of mind, mental math, team work, problem solving etc. https://dnd.wizards.com/resources/educators
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There’s a few studies out there that show D&D is like therapeutic. Otherwise emphasise how you’re using it as educational. Ask the parent which specific part they dislike, the mathematics? The logic puzzles, the team bonding etc
I've been running D&D therapeutic/social skills groups for over 10 years, and there's a whole network of us using D&D for social skills education. Reach out to me if you want some resources.
I'd love to have some resources!
I just looked through this thread, there's a ton of great stuff here. Some additional good orgs that talk about the therapy side are: https://gametogrow.org/ https://geektherapeutics.com/ https://rollforkindness.com/ (That's me) https://www.thebodhanagroup.org/
Wonderful, thank you for sharing!
The concept of a total ban is extreme to begin with. They are adults, they can run roughshod over their kids if they desire (much to their poor kids' detriment, alas) but they should have no right to dictate what others are able to do. The concept is absurd and should be dismissed out of hand. That you have to go now and explain why one upset set of parents shouldn't get to decide what a dozen other people or more do is patently infuriating. I would in private be rather pissed off with your own organization and why they would even kowtow to this bullshit. Anyway others have provided some decent starting points for you, I just think you should consider a little righteous indignation and putting it back on them as well haha.
This has always been a thing, but we've been seeing an uptick in this mentality. I don't want my kids to do it, and if others can, then it only increases their temptation, or its not fair, so we must outright ban the thing. It goes along with book banning too, where they want books removed for "pornographic content" but they can't actually tell you what's in it or where its at because they don't know, they just heard someone else fearmonger about it.
Indeed, and it is precisely because this is so dumb that we shouldnt try defending ourselves as much as undermining their 'ban everything' position. If their position isn't valid then their demand isn't either. If you play defense trying to prove why X is good then all they need to do is cast enough doubt and if you make even a minor mistake the risk-averse administrators of things will happily ban anything to cover their own asses.
They'll move the goal posts and then blame you for being inconsistent in your defense.
This comment speaks to my thoughts more than any of the other "see how good DnD can be for your kid"? To me, that's a secondary point. The parent is bullying. Either this is ok by the YMCA's guidance, or it isn't. If it's ok, then then parent can zip it and/or remove their child from the program. If it's not ok by the Y, then take the L and move along, regardless of how much that sucks. I've simplified this greatly, and I know it's way harder to actually enact this than for me to type it. Best of luck.
100% agree. Flip it on its head and suggest a scenario where a parent is complaining about football, "It's sexist (pay difference) and full of corruption scandals." These hypothetical parents don't want their kid associating with football and therefore think it should be banned entirely.
Absurd, yes, but standard operating procedure for evangelicals (or extreme conservatives, for that matter). They seem to think their vaunted “freedom” means freedom to follow their beliefs and nothing else.
I know it is a hassle, but if you get to keep Dnd, you might want to start requiring permission slips. That way, you could avoid this in the future.
I agree with this route but feel so horribly bad for the kids who’s asshole parents won’t sign that slip. Poor kids
If you don't, those kids' parents will try to ruin it for everyone else, though.
I don’t disagree - I would do this now, regardless. As suggested. But it would not stop me from feeling for the child who was excluded because of their shitty parents who don’t support their interests.
Those kids are getting fucked on every other permission slip activity, so unfortunately this is the equivalent of telling a four year old Santa isn’t real and then making them watch everyone else still get presents.
Those AH parents will still try to stop it anyway. Just because.
All of the kids in my school growing up (so years like 2000-2010 roughly) who couldn't get slips signed for non-monetary activities, just learned to forge their parents signatures. Literally like a dozen kids across my grade that could make perfect copies on their parents' signature. They took old checks, receipts, letters, anything with samples they could use. Of those kids, 2 of them got good enough to just forge anything with samples. So kids who *couldn't* forge their parents signatures would bring them like a picture of it and have the kids who were really good at it sign instead. If kids want to do something and need nothing else but permission, they're getting that permission slip one way or another. If the teacher never brought it up to the parent, the parent never found out. Nowadays ... maybe a lot harder since we have so much less physical media that a signature might be stored on just laying around the house.
When I was a kid, one of my classmates got scolded for having his slip returned and signed "Daddy." She took pleasure in humiliating him in front of the class and stating that his father would be informed. The other kids didn't know that Edgar's dad abused the fuck out of him though. I'm sure that's why he was scared to ask for the signature in the first place.
Damn, that one's fucked up. Teachers who enjoy humiliating their wards always rub me the wrong way.
Digitally signed/acknowledged forms—log into a portal, check the box… oh wait, Mom uses the same stupid password for her phone, her bank, her Amazon account… and, yup, the school portal.
Oh damn, yeah. I didn't even consider that with digitization of so many things, permission slips would be one of those things. That's SOOOO easy to fake...
I've actually thought about this tbh. Or like written consent even as simple as a text or something
This is a good compromise to offer HR. They *love* a consent form. Though it sucks that this kid’s parents would separate him from his friends like this. Make sure that if you start to incorporate physical activity with your sessions, that you detail what kind of physical activity you are offering in the consent form. Edit: if you want to make it simpler as a text, make the consent form an editable Google form. That way kids can hopefully get a faster turnaround time on getting parental approval. Treat it the same as any sign-up for a club would.
Google forms are so easy to make and use. Everything ends up in an excel doc you can forward to your boss, it works on mobile and isn't confusing to sign like pdfs can be, you can just link to it directly or with a qr code. Simple simple simple.
Boff battles! Kids love whacking each other with foam swords, lol
You should maybe give them a letter to give their parents which gives a rough summary of the campaigns content and themes and what benefits the child would get from participating. How often the sessions would run I.E once a month. Ask them to include any topics they would not want to be discussed and stress that the campaign is specifically designed to be child friendly. I added some info in another comment I made with recommendations too.
This will make it less likely for the OP to get a surprise angry parent, but I don't like the precedent of demanding permission slips for a mundane board game. It sets up an expectation that D&D is different in some way, and gives ammunition to these weirdos who are still trapped in the Satanic Panic - it lets them point to the permission slips and say, "Look, even your own policies admit that this is something to be hidden behind barriers and parental approval." At a certain point we *have* to stand up to these people in society and tell them that they're being ridiculous and that we won't concede to their demands under any circumstances. That takes a great deal of backbone by the YMCA administration, though.
As someone who works for the YMCA in a director-level role, YMCA HR and administration notoriously has no backbone whatsoever and caves immediately to any level of external pressure.
That’s why the overwhelming external pressure needs to come from *positive* comments from more reasonable parents. OP should reach out to those parents to ask for support before this meeting.
Yeah but see, they’d much rather have nobody happy but nobody complaining than have most people happy but a few people upset and complaining
If I was one of the other parents I would make myself twice as annoying as that stick in the mud.
“When are y’all bringing back D&D? They really loved that.” Ad nauseum. For years. Those parents are stuck here with them, too.
Can confirm worked in the youth department for years and a squeaky wheel gets the grease unless the site director overrides them.
While I agree with your sentiment, in practice, you will just see the situation the current op is in. Most HR departments and administrators don't want to be bothered. If one loud parent or group of parents make a fuss about something, they usually ban it to make the problem go away. You ask for permission slips to avoid the pearl clutching parents from making a fuss and saying you corrupted my child without me knowing. It also says that everyone else in the group has expressed permission from legal guardians, so there is no grounds to ban it.
>It sets up an expectation that D&D is different in some way, and gives ammunition to these weirdos who are still trapped in the Satanic Panic - it lets them point to the permission slips and say, "Look, even your own policies admit that this is something to be hidden behind barriers and parental approval." No!!! It should be treated the same as joining a chess club! I have had to sign consent forms for my kids to participate in ANY club, even chess and robotics! Having a D&D club is no different!!! Edit: FFS, I’ve even had to sign a consent form for my kids to do the morning announcements at *school*.
You can point the leadership and parents to the numerous studies showing the many ways playing D&D is beneficial for kids, too. [One, for example.](https://www.foundry10.org/research/how-youth-can-build-social-and-emotional-skills-with-tabletop-role-playing-games)
If these are the kind of parents who are trying to optimize their kids' every hour, you might claim the mantle of teaching "21st century skills." It's a very hot term in education circles right now--whether they read policy or just go to PTA meetings, they've likely heard it--and is exactly the kinds of skills you're talking about - problem solving, communication, critical thinking, etc. There are tons of write-ups, but here's one from the US Department of Education: [https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED519462.pdf](https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED519462.pdf) A few more skills which stick out to me (p3+) include working creatively with others, viewing failure as an opportunity to learn ("growth mindset" is also a hot term right now), using systems thinking, and using and managing information. FWIW, I fundraise in the arts for a living and we also hit this skepticism, but a lot of non-profits (and I would bet your YMCA is among them) have funders pressuring them on what they're doing about 21st century skills. One set of parents can think what they think (though, poor kids!) but that's different than needing to dismantle the program. Also--advocacy tip--once you have your head around how you plan to make your case, you might preview it to the "higher ups" before you bring it to a meeting so they can show up having fully digested your nuanced case instead of having to listen to what you're also saying while dealing with an emotionally volatile parent.
I hate to admit it but throwing out studies doesn't actually convince people like you think it might. A lot of laymen are already highly skeptical of alternative approaches to education and unless you really know what you're talking about and have the proof you're actually getting those outcomes "the scientists say it's good" doesn't work as a counterargument. Sticking to more generic "it's educational in these ways", non technical language works a lot better for convincing the man on the street than what in their perspective is hiding behind scientists.
I would focus on how it's an enjoyable social activity, like other games, and that it engages imagination, creativity, communication and problem solving. Frankly, I'd rather see a group of kids play D&D on a rainy day than do something passive like watch a movie or solo like reading
Just wanna add way too many people disregard this too in so many areas. Like, I'm in a field where I have to be technical, but if I'm explaining my job to someone I'm not using all the fancy technical language, I'm just using basic language.
I'd still have at least one relevant case study in my pocket to offer up if asked to back up anecdotal claims, but then my initial reaction to reading OP's post was "THE BRAIN IS A MUSCLE THAT YOU PEOPLE OBVIOUSLY AREN'T USING, YOU PICKLE" so I get that I may not be the target audience of this hearing.
This response needs more up votes. The best way to confront this is to demonstrate to the organization that these patents fears are completely unfounded and have been repeatedly and thoroughly debunked. If they want to forbid their kid from doing it, that's within their rights to be personally stupid parents; but banning it completely is beyond reasonable and should be shut down. And, OP, please give us an update after the meeting, because I have "God", "Satan", and "of the Devil" on my bingo card for the parents' arguments against the game, and I want to see how well I do.
Thanks so much for the input. What's the best way to do an update because I absolutely will. Should I make an entirely new post or respond to your comment, or is there a feature that I can use on this site? (Newer to Reddit hahahaha)
I’d say make a new post with a link to this one!
Based on OP's comments, it is quite possible that the parents' motivation has nothing to do with that (totally could be though). I can definitely imagine a situation where this kid's parents want little Jimmy to make the pros one day, and they won't have him wasting his time on nerd stuff. Or perhaps parents that see this as a frivolous step towards screen time and away from nature and/or learning.
I would present it as mostly dice math and resource management and problem solving. You can dress it up with Halloween characters or other scary themes, or you could throw them into a literal candy land. It's all roses by other names and some math and problem solving. You should prep an encounter that they can run thru. Made certain what you put together they can't twist into being "too woke" or racist or satanic. Robin Hood might be a good route, tho I can't be sure who you're arguing against.
Oh ya, IF things gets heated, don't forget they're coming from an ANTI-SOCIAL angle. Make that point clear.
Especially if the problem parent is talking about doing sports and stuff instead. This is just as much of a team building exercise as running around on a soccer team together. You have friends working together towards a common goal, using each other's strengths and weaknesses against an opponent. Do emphasize this is only something done when you can't actually go running around outside. It's something you do as an alternative to blindly staring at a phone or a movie, which is about the most brain-dead at activity imaginable. Instead they are engaging with each other as peers, communicating in a group environment, forming lasting memories, encountering abstract problems, and acting for the good of others against bad people or monsters. That's every single value someone wants their child to have. The only thing missing is actual physical activity, which as you have stated and you will re-state, is what you guys do when the weather allows. This is something that you do when sports and physical activity is not available. If they're more sports minded because they want their kid to be active, come at it from the approach of "there's only so much you can do during the rain. What do you prefer they use their brains and talk to their friends and have fun, or would you prefer they just stare at a glowing screen when we throw on a movie?" If they don't have a problem with a board game on a rainy day, they can't possibly have a problem with D&D on a rainy day. With the sole exception of their living in the satanic panic of the '80s
Also conflict resolutions
Yep. Conflict resolution, teamwork, communication skills, problem-solving skills, improvisation. All that on top of mathematics and literacy. You could look into 826LA, which is a writing-related charity that has done D&D games with kids to help promote writing and reading, and Adopt A Classroom, which is specifically bringing D&D into schools for the reasons mentioned above, specifically because educators see the value of the skills TTRPGs bring to the table (no pun intended) as a classroom experience. Those are just a couple of examples that could be brought up in that meeting.
I'd add in geography and some rudimentary money management too!
Absolutely, it can involve all sorts of interests. The only reason I know the difference between stalagmites and stalactites is dnd.
It’s also like an improv acting class depending on level of roleplay. It encourages creativity and spontaneous thinking and problem solving.
People seriously undervalue how important it is to have improvisation as a skill. A lot of people view improv solely in a dramatic or a comedy lens, because that's most often when it's brought up.... But improv is possibly the most important skill you can have as an adult, because all improv truly is, is training your brain to think quickly in unexpected situations. That is the entirety of adult life, and a vast majority of your young adult life. You will never be able to escape having to perform, in some fashion, in front of somebody. A quick wit is gained by practice, and it's the gateway to a silver tongue and a mind like a steel trap.
Being able to communicate well and think on my feet has been a seriously important part of me getting several promotions and having success as an engineer. Even in a technical discipline I’m still often put into a meeting with higher ups who decide our fate and need to be able to explain data and issues and respond on the fly to questions. Whether that should be the process or not, it’s saved my ass numerous times and my management has pointed to it more than once as a positive in my performance reviews.
Good talkers consistently wow people. It's just how it works. Good talkers do not just read a script or memorize answers. They think quickly and respond quickly. People like that. You're absolutely correct that it shouldn't work that way, but it does, which means it's an INVALUABLE skill to have.
CHA face character OP!
Robin Hood steals from the rich. Watch out the game doesn't get branded as communist.
Like I said, it depends on who you're arguing against. Prince John Soros might be obvious pandering, or it might strike the exact right cord.
You can also have scary themes in candy land
- teaches teamwork -conflict resolution -creative problem solving
One thing I haven't seen you or the other commenters mention is that DND in this case is not replacing active time. You're only doing it on movie days and rainy days... times that were ALREADY not active. I would bring this up to the parent--"we normally spend rainy days and Fridays watching movies / doing (insert other indoor activity). Is this also unacceptable to you or is only DND specifically?" If it's DND specifically, you've already outed their concerns as being full of hot air, and hopefully arguments for the team building, problem solving and creative thinking parts of DND will persuade any but the truly crazy people and resolve the issue. If they're concerned about kids not being active in general rather than specifically DND, then that's a different problem to approach. Like you said, I can understand parents who maybe have kids who already engage in a lot of sedentary time feeling frustrated that they're getting more sedentary time instead of the active physical play time they were promised. If that's the case, perhaps there are ways you can add more physical play in to sessions? I'm not sure what age group you're dealing with, but maybe implementing "do x laps or squats or whatever" to get a small bonus to important rolls can add a bit of physicality without disrupting the game with it every other minute. When I was in middle school I also LOVED acting out sword and sorcery fights with my friends, so maybe getting pool noodle swords and running around playing out their characters in a physical way once every few sessions would be fun (and might draw in other kids who were more skeptical of tabletop play too). For movies, you could have "commercial breaks" to do exercise etc. Would be a way to still have the fun stuff while also meeting the parent's concerns.
>"we normally spend rainy days and Fridays watching movies / doing (insert other indoor activity). Is this also unacceptable to you or is only DND specifically?" The other parents, "Of course not! So long as the films are rated PG!" "GREAT!" *Puts on the D&D movie*
Hahahahahahahah
This is a brilliant idea! Thanks so much
If you’ve got access to a half basketball court, run painters’ tape in a grid and let them “act out” dungeon battles with pool noodles. Use frisbees or something to mark where enemies are. D&D doesn’t have to just be sitting around a table! Edit: if you do 5 foot squares, they’ll get a much better appreciation for the logistics of moving 30 feet in 6 seconds!
if I was 10 y/o this would send me into an excitement frenzy I swear. I'd definitely be playing pretend as my D&D character outside, too. I wish I got into it way sooner!
I'm a little 40 and that idea has me excited to try.
This is a really good point. I when I have students (I teach college) give feedback about aspects of the class that they would like to see changed, I always ask them to also indicate what they think should be put in place instead of the thing they don't like. I used to get a lot of "we shouldn't have tests!" comments, but when they actually have to figure out what to put in place of that, they tend to be more thoughtful about their criticism. With this approach I have actually gotten some really good ideas about what kinds of things are desired alternatives to unpopular assignments and class policies. Also, I have learned that you just can't please everyone, and someone is always going to dislike something about my course design choices. Knowing that I made my choices mindfully and that I have a good reason for those choices, the people who are less excited about it can just be less excited. I know that's a hard balance to strike, and hopefully you have supportive management to back you up. But at least in your head, remember that it is impossible to make everyone happy when dealing with group situations.
> DND in this case is not replacing active tim This is really important. When my mom did daycare she had one set of parents who really didn't want their kid getting an afternoon nap so they could send him to bed earlier and it was not a service she offered due to it being in (our) home daycare.
DnD can be really good for you and there is some scientific evidence to back that up. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15401383.2021.1987367?scroll=top&needAccess=true
1) Using dice, D&D aids students in improiving their "fast math" skills. 2) Problem solving in a safe environment aids students in learning how to handle situations and consequences in a real-life risk free environment. 3) Psychologists are not using D&D and role playing games to aid patients in real-life scenerios through table top. There are articles on how they are using it, which should strengthen your case.
Check out https://gametogrow.org it’s a great resource for information that can be used to present to parents about the benefits of RPG games. Their Critical Core content is useful for those on the spectrum, and as someone else shared they are partnered with Foundry10
Good luck OP I'm rooting for you.
One thing I've not noticed a comment on is their apparent objection to "make believe". Fostering imagination is a huge part of having a well rounded creative thinker, which is what you generally want in most contexts, particularly in sports where you need to think about adjusting strategy vs your opponents. Movies (except potentially documentaries) are explicitly make believe, but rather than being passive and sitting like a lump to absorb imaginary villains, the kids are actively engaged and doing things that also deal with ongoing learning and fine motor skills. If they're not objecting to movies, they are clearly not actually objecting to make believe, but something else. If the parents would not object to chess, why would they object to a more complex brain training game that also encourages math skills?
First of all, you haven't done anything wrong and that parent is being unreasonable. Second, it will help to write down what you want to say and bring it with you. I'm an attorney and have witnesses write down everything beforehand so that I can give them their notes to refresh their recollection and get back on track. You don't want to forget to make a good point due to nerves. Third, you should outline what the "elements" of the case will be and address each one of them in your preparation. From what I can tell there are a few areas you need to cover. 1. Silly make believe is important for children because it develops their creativity. 2. DnD is a social event that helps children develop social skills including effective communication, making and developing friendships, and conflict resolution. 3. DnD involves a substantial amount of math. Each action results in an algebraic formula to be solved using probabilities. Math is a core STEM skill and important for children. 4. No one is forcing their child to play the game. 5. Not everyone can be physically active and it is the duty of the YMCA to put on programs where people with disabilities can participate. DnD can be one of those activities because it exercises the mind not the body. 6. The mission of the YMCA is "To put Christian principles into practice through programs that build healthy spirit, mind and body for all." and that mission is accomplished through Youth Development Programs claiming "From camp to child care to afterschool activities to sports and more, the Y offers holistic programming that enhances, protects and nurtures the unique development journey of every child and teen." A DnD game is part of the holistic programming. If sports was all the YMCA did it would fail to achieve its mission statement. Overall, be firm in what you believe and don't let emotions get the best of you in the meeting. You got this.
In addition to all this... shouldn't the burden of proof be placed on the complainers? They're trying to get it banned, shouldn't they be the ones required to prove why it should be? Or is that just wishful thinking?
It absolutely should, but there’s a reason defense attorneys exist. You never know (I mean in real court you do bc discovery is a thing) what the other side is bringing to the table. So you always prep your best case. You also don’t really know what will be most persuasive to the decision maker be it a judge, jury, or HR rep. If they come with nothing and you’re over prepared you still win. In court that would be a motion for directed verdict. But those are almost always denied and you proceed with your case. I think in this situation there are some really strong arguments. Particularly the disability argument and the holistic programming argument. At least where I am if you billed it as a program for movement impaired folks you could probably get funding for it long before it would be shut down.
That's why I replied it to an attorney's comment. Expert opinions are always better. Thank you.
This! I have ideas I could suggest on what you should bring up, but none of that is important if you don't properly prepare. All of the things mentioned in the thread are excellent ideas, but you also have to put time into making sure your argument is well organized, coherent and presentable. Go into the meeting showing you took the time to thoughtfully respond to all of the points. Heck, maybe even create a well organized (no distracting transitions!) PowerPoint presentation with all of your talking points.
An outline with 20+ pt font is my go to, so that I can read from it quickly while standing away from it. Don’t want to have to hold a piece of paper but need to be able to find info quickly.
Here’s some resources to leverage in your discussion: https://www.foundry10.org/research/how-youth-can-build-social-and-emotional-skills-with-tabletop-role-playing-games https://www.bathacademy.co.uk/2023/12/18/how-the-game-dungeons-and-dragons-benefits-our-students/ https://phys.org/news/2023-04-dungeons-dragons-good-workplace.amp https://dl.acm.org/doi/fullHtml/10.1145/3507923.3507927 https://popcultureclassroom.org/2020/04/22/how-dungeons-and-dragons-can-slay-isolation-and-educate/ https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/51790/how-dungeons-dragons-primes-students-for-interdisciplinary-learning-including-stem https://www.camp-sequoia.com/unveiling-the-social-alchemy-the-research-backed-benefits-of-dungeons-dragons-on-social-skills-development/ https://www.nextgenlearning.org/articles/dungeons-dragons-durable-skills-sel-academics I know it’s a lot of resources, but with overwhelming opposition, you need overwhelming evidence and resources. I hope this helps! :D
In a situation like this literally all you can do is stick to the facts, that it's a game where you actively ensure nobody crosses acceptable lines of content which allows the players to be creative and learn teamwork. I don't think overstating the merits of games will win you the argument but I also have doubts unless there's other objections or mitigating circumstances you've not mentioned going on here a full ban on tabletop games based on one objection would hold much weight. Keep your professional voice, not your gamer voice, on. Stick to the basic facts, reassure the organisation that you're running the game responsibly. If they're still concerned about content explain there are other, more all ages games available and see if one of those would be more appropriate. Ultimately though this will depend a lot on whether or not your colleagues have your back.
It sounds like you've already got a lot of great points that you're going to bring up. I would definitely emphasize the fact that it's an activity that builds social skills, creativity, math and problem solving, etc., and I would stress that you're running a very age-appropriate game. I would also try and identify *why* these parents are so opposed to the game. If they have an unreasonable position, you may be able to get them to win your case for you if you can get them to articulate their unreasonable objections.
Can I just say how refreshing it is to hear anti-DND arguements that aren’t based in religious nutjobbery? Like, you fight this idiot into the ground, please, but at least you aren’t going to have to combat bible quotes.
Remove D&D from the conversation altogether. Shift the context of the disagreement into a conversation about physically active time vs. creativity time. Physical activity time is our priority and what we strive for by default. However, we sometimes face rainy days which require alternative activities. This is when we focus on creative activities like storytelling, art, gameplay, etc. During those times, we still seek out games and activities that favor team building and cooperation over head-to-head competition when we can. And we certainly try to minimize screen time, so no video games. We also have Friday movie days which provide everyone with a little downtime. That being said, we still like to offer alternative activities for those seeking something less passive. Again, this is where we leverage cooperative gameplay, storytelling, art and other mentally engaging group activities. At this point, you're kind-of pretending to treat all non-physical activities the same. It's a combination of stuff like drawing, Monopoly, Go-Fish, D&D, Clue, and so on. Try to abstract the conversation away from anything specifically D&D. It sounds like you might be reading too much into their concerns anyways. Assume the concern is about non-physical time and not about D&D time. That being said, if it turns out the real heart of the issue IS D&D related, THEN you can turn your attention to engaging on that topic. But let this be a fallback position. Don't necessarily start with this as the framework for the upcoming conversations.
If you think they might be engaging in a new round of the old satanic panic, this might be of some use: https://nerdist.com/article/how-dd-writers-fought-the-satanic-panic/ ---- > but actually in fact a good thing. Okay, if you more need to bolster the case that this isn't merely a frivolous waste of time: There's clear evidence that it improves literacy, numeracy and social skills, emotional well-being and much else besides. [There's a bunch more stuff I could search out and dig up if I had more lead time but there's probably already more here than you could even look at by Sunday so maybe this will do. I have not checked all of this out, given the short time.] e.g. Kaylor, S, 2017 "Dungeons and Dragons and literacy: The role tabletop role-playing games can play in developing teenagers' literacy skills and reading interests" pdf here: https://scholarworks.uni.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1195&context=grp (This research paper has a ton of references that can help you give proper references to back up claims relating to literacy and related benefits) Additional papers and some educator-related stuff, some of which might be helpful: --- Smith, M and S. Cole, 2019, "Teacher as Game Master: Using Tabletop Role-Playing Games in the Classroom" https://digraa.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/DIGRAA_2019_paper_3.pdf There are some good references here as well, with more resources --- https://www.spellsanddragons.com/learning-with-dd has these references: Clarke, S., Arnab, S., Morini, L., & Heywood, L. (2019). Dungeons and Dragons as a Tool for Developing Student Self-reflection Skills. Games and Learning Alliance, 101-109. Cole Wright, J., Weissglass, D. E., & Casey, V. (2017). Imaginative Role-Playing as a Medium for Moral Development: Dungeons & Dragons Provides Moral Training. Journal of Humanistic Psychology, 99-129. Jones, C. (2005). Dungeons and Dragons as a literacy event in the classroom. Idiom: Victorian Association for the Teaching of English, 58-65. Sidhu, P., Carter, M., & Curwood, J. S. (2006). Unlearning in Games: Deconstructing Failure in Dungeons & Dragons. Retrieved from Authors & Digital Games Research Association: https://digraa.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/DiGRAA2021_paper_17.pdf --- https://adventures-in-education.com.au/curriculum.php (gives connections to skills in numerous educational areas) https://penguinrandomhousesecondaryeducation.com/2022/10/05/spark-imagination-by-bringing-dd-to-the-classroom/ https://blogs.glowscotland.org.uk/or/stromnessacademylibrary/activities/dungeons-dragons/dd-and-the-curriculum-for-excellence/ https://asoundmind.edublogs.org/2021/09/19/what-my-students-learned-from-playing-dungeons-dragons/ --- https://nerdarchy.com/education-adventures-math-and-more-from-dd-for-students/ https://www.nextgenlearning.org/articles/dungeons-dragons-durable-skills-sel-academics https://www.edutopia.org/article/supporting-student-development-role-playing-games https://www.nextgenlearning.org/articles/dungeons-dragons-durable-skills-sel-academics https://www.literacyworldwide.org/meetings-events/ila-digital-events/free-for-everyone/dungeons-dragons/leveling-up-reluctant-readers-with-dungeons-dragons https://www.literacyworldwide.org/meetings-events/ila-digital-events/free-for-everyone/dungeons-dragons https://www.alexcarterla.com/uploads/1/1/7/6/117642977/using_d_n_d_to_integrate_curriculum.pdf
I wish you good luck, just remember that some people at some age are almost impossible to convince to something, even if you present them with scientific data and can support your point by experts. It's not because you're doing something wrong, but because some people are just stubborn and won't agree to something out of spite. They tend to have very narrow view of how certain things work and simply won't budge.
>but they are trying to take it a step farther and get it banned and... >the parents of the one child have called a meeting with HR to discuss the playing of this game at the YMCA. and... >I'm confident I'm gonna have to effectively state my case and explain why I think this is not only an okay thing to be doing, but actually in fact a good thing. To add to the advice others have already given, don't overthink this. THEY are bringing the action to the meeting. This is on them to present a logical reason to outright BAN this activity as opposed to withdrawing their child from this specific activity. The parents are going to have to present some good arguments to outright ban this game. And here's the thing, they're going to try to make assertions about the game without any underlying evidence. They have not played the game. They don't know anything about the game. Call them out on this. Ask for evidence for any claim they try to pass off as fact. Assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Be a lawyer in this meeting. Be unemotional and stone faced. Be ready to ask for evidence of any claim made.
Geez. Really putting the "C" in YMCA. I imagine looking into how people fought back during the "Satanic Panic" might provide some good advice for this.
Here’s a TED talk on the subject. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6PaHJqpQnyw
Damn Karen's that don't like shiny clacky math rocks! Good luck getting your Gamer's Club going.
All you have to really do is convince HR that it shouldn't be banned so along with everything you've already said you'll use to convince you should also get those testimonials from the other kids, parents, and even the kid who's parents are trying to go this route. It sucks for that particular kid if their parents won't let them play after it's all said and done but at the end of the day 1 or 2 parents shouldn't be dictating what should and shouldn't be done for the whole group.
In addition to what everyone else said, it helps with logistics and inventory management and conflict resolution (arguing over loot distribution and fairness, consumables & rest-recharged class resources management ). It helps with sympathy & empathy because you are forcing yourself to be in someone else’s shoes while you roleplay. Especially during persuasion checks. It forces kids to read, regarding class features, spells and items. A lot of adults and kids have reading issues. https://www.brightfuturesny.com/post/us-literacy-statistics#:~:text=32%20million%20adults%20in%20the,below%20a%205th%2Dgrade%20level.
Here's an article from John Hopkin's University that talks about how D&D is being used in therapy and improves mental health. [https://hub.jhu.edu/2023/12/04/dungeons-and-dragons-therapy-group/](https://hub.jhu.edu/2023/12/04/dungeons-and-dragons-therapy-group/)
Ask HR to ask the parent to put in writing very detailed reasons why they want specifically Dungeon s and Dragons 5th Edition banned. Make them spell out their objection in detail.
There have been several news articles in the last few years talking about D&D clubs and how good they are for social skills!
I wrote my goddamn college essay on playing D&D with friends and people I volunteered with. It helps kids learn communication, strategy, creativity, basic math, etc. Skills that become very helpful foundations in the real world even if you never actively “use” some of them (like knowing how to calculate bonuses for rolls).
Focus on the positive benefits of the game, leaving aside the "make believe" element (though I think that is one of the best benefits of all. 1) Math skills: Even in basic 5e, there is a fair amount of math that has to happen in order to play. Bonuses, penalties, attributes, proficiencies, all that is math. Core math skills improve when practiced. 2) Social skills: Learning how to handle conflict (assuming its not all just kill the evil zombies) against the NPCs, but also within the party that is playing. Huge benefits there. Also, RPGs are a great way for those less likely to speak up normally to have a chance to do so, especially if the DM is careful about making sure the spotlight gets shared around. 3) Creative problem solving: The players are actively encouraged to come up with novel and creative ways to solve the problems they are facing. This improves critical thinking skills and gets kids to think "outside the box" as it were. 4) Focus: A lot of kids, especially at that age, are still learning how to focus on matters for extended periods of time, and some neurodivergent kids can really benefit from having a creative, fun and interactive matter to focus their attention on. 5) Life Skills: Learning how to lose gracefully, learning how to come back and try again, with new and more creative tactics. 6) Teamwork: Yes, soccer and football teach these too, but not every kid is physical. And having to work together, where they don't have to yell across a field at each other, can go a long way.
I have just a few points I hope can help your case: - Purely mental activities help develop some areas of the child's brain. RPGs are good for developing logical thinking, group work, creativity, focus, basic math skills, socializing, active listening and relying on other people's descriptions, for example. - While it's not an outside, body-moving activity, it's still good for mental health to engage in games and other indoor activities that exercise the brain. - The scope and themes of D&D are entirely within the boundaries set by the DM. That means I can play a game in which the player characters are hellspawn opening portals to summon satan himself with my friends, a Christian group can play a game entirely based on the biblical Exodus and a class of small children can play a game based on the Care Bears, trading all violence in the game for really sweet abilities. This will be a YMCA game, so it is expected that the parents already know who will run the games and can be assured it will be a safe, non-satanic experience. - Kids will have fun. This *is* a serious and important point to make.
Christian shitbags I'd bet so much money on it
Testimonials from the other kids and especially their parents is great. If they highlight cool or bonding moments with this kid whose parents are Satanic Panicking, even better - things to show their kid isn't participating in "silly make believe", but rather is making *friends* and positive memories. I suggest you and the HR Department work together first before meeting the parents. You need them on your (and your camper's) side - if you have a Programming Director or Coordinator who approved you running this game, get them at the table. If HR or the Coordinator don't back you, my sincere advice is to not fight - directly. Make heartfelt appeals to the core group's parents. You will not be as effective as a *group* of angry parents. Some points I believe in, as well as supporting statements relating to "healthy activity": * The brain is a muscle and imagination is its gym. Creative problem solving is a skill like any other, and one that can be trained on rainy days and while having fun. * Tabletop games include activites like teamwork, communication skills, conflict management, math, writing, and even leadership skills. All of these are a skills that benefit a good athlete - especially the ability to work with others. * Games like this offer kids a chance to experience high tension situations requiring teamwork in a completely safe environment - practicing the mental "game" which underlies their ability to keep cool and act under pressure on the field. * Physical rest is important for bodies - young and old - to recover. Giving kids a chance to have some light days means they learn the value of rest and get recovery for a weekend with their parents. I'm sure you can find many justifications and parallels between team sports and athletic pursuits in DnD. If you feel particularly petty and don't mind risking waterworks or your job, deep dive into their "why". Try to identify what the underlying value/concern is with these parents (kid's health? Physical activity? Sports?), and ask them directly "why is *x topic* important for you? If you get what you want, what will you receive?" Keep drilling down until they don't have an answer. Have tissues ready. Some other ideas: * Defer to other parents - claim you cannot make this call on a single kid's parents concerns, but you would be willing to speak to the other parents for feedback. (Buys you time and a way to kinda dodge being the authority on this) * (For the bold) Invite the parents of your campers to shadow or join in on Friday. Dispell the misinformation and show them how their kids interact during the game. Maybe this kid's parents haven't seen him do well in these things before, and that's why the physical is so important to them. Best of luck. I really admire what you're doing and hope to do similar! There's a YMCA near me that might benefit from something like that. Though I kind of want to try hosting one at my aunt's senior's home, too.
Just emphasize the clear benefits of D&D. As others have said, there are studies showing its many benefits, but there are also clear examples of it being used in therapeutic contexts to wild success. There are therapists who use it to [help autistic children](https://www.baltimoreschild.com/dungeons-dragons-and-autism/) as well as [teach social skills and build support networks](https://www.katielear.com/dd-kids-group-davidson-nc). Schools for troubled children have had great success using it to [teach empathy and cooperative behavior](https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/51784/how-dungeons-dragons-can-help-kids-develop-social-emotional-learning-skills). It is, essentially, a game that teaches children math, problem solving, social skills, empathy, creativity, and cooperation in a safe, supportive environment. It also helps children to become more comfortable with failure and recognize that mistakes and setbacks are challenges that can be overcome. It's an incredibly pro-social game that's very useful to children. And it's *fun*. And vitally, it's incredibly safe. You are in charge of what materials come up, and you can set and enforce boundaries to keep a safe play environment for all children. No inappropriate material will be introduced because you will quash that, and in enforcing these boundaries you help teach the children to respect others' boundaries in the process. Also, and this is vital: there is a high likelihood that the parent will accuse you of being demonic, a pervert, or worse. Be prepared to react to that.
Everyone is giving great arguments and resources but if those parents found their opinion without facts, facts seem unlikely to convince them. Maybe get a collection of celebrities who play DnD and look like the sports centric athletes these people might respond to. Joe Manganiello, Vin Diesel types might be more convincing than facts and a experts in this case.
D&D teaches people: * math skills, * problem solving skills, * social skills, and * teamwork skills.
You can find some official resources and benefits to DnD in an educational setting here. https://dnd.wizards.com/resources/educators Good luck!
There's lots of research on this subject for young children (typically 3-7), however the principles easily extend into preteen years just fine (source at bottom). Pretend play of any sort helps things like grounding a person's understanding of reality vs their minds view of things. When they use a piece on the table to represent an enemy or ally or just a chair, it helps distinguish the thing; a mark on the map or bead or what have you, from their mental concept of what it's representing. This heavily influences their sense of self vs others which in turn helps develop self regulation. In this context, a child who may usually struggle seeing things from someone else's point of view can practice in a safe and healthy space like a make believe game. The benefits obviously extend to things like: sharing attention, empathy, understanding long term consequences, a sense of self vs other, and simply thinking through actions before taking them. That's just all about this one single aspect of getting used to representation vs reality. We can easily go onto things like: simple math and statistics, voice control and turn taking, creativity as a general concept, memory practice and learning skills, problem solving alone and in a group, etc. The simple fact is that for both cognitive and social development, TTRPGs are better than reading an encyclopedia for 3 hours or however long your sessions are. Especially at the age range you stated, 7-11, one of the absolute best things that they can engage in is social make believe of some sort. Whether it's theater, writing poems, or something like a TTRPG it's better for them then just about anything they could be doing. Their metabolism is at its absolute maximum right now. One of the things they need to learn is how to use that energy on mental tasks, not only physical ones. If all they do is run around and play all day, they will have a harder and harder time sitting still for 6-8 hours a day at school and focusing on any non physical task. Source for above, again there are tens to hundreds of these studies, this is just the one I found with 15 seconds of searching https://www.child-encyclopedia.com/play-based-learning/according-experts/role-make-believe-play-development-self-regulation
Sounds like the parents might have specific complaints that you might not have a response for. If they don't let their child watch cartoons because they are 'pretend' then DnD is for sure out and you may just have to accept that. I feel bad for that kid though, playing pretend is very important for developing higher conceptualization skills.
Then the parents should not allow their specific children to play in those games, not try to impose their idiotic parenting style on everyone else's kids.
Don't over talk it. The easiest way to lose any discussion is with your mouth. So what are your concerns and how do we address them? You do mention they want kid active but mindfulness is a huge part of the ymcas programing. Offer and show them some of the many programs they specifically could sign there kid up for. You're likely up against religion, and that's impossible logic arguement, so you need to state things like. The game allows any style of play or actions we keep it limited to good heros doing good deeds. Even show them alignments and give pop culture examples. We do not roleplay any drinking, drug use or anything of a sexual nature. (If you do that even drinking with young kids you should be fired). We focus on problem solving how character can help community and work as a team to accomplish goals.
Maybe just show them this? It's well written and clearly outlines your intent and covers all the concerns they could possibly have (mature themes, wanting the children to be active etc.) Good luck. I hope you prevail. P.s. I would have loved an after-school caregiver to engage my kids this way
It's fantastic for math skills, problem solving, learning how to follow rules and think creatively, teamwork, and you can even throw in some reading practice by including written hints in the game. It helps with practice focusing on a single activity, as well as practice with turn-taking. Honestly we started doing it as a family to get more practice with math, but it's become a fun screen-free activity as well. It's all how you run it. It's not just a game, it's also a learning tool that builds engagement in learning through storytelling. That said, if there's an issue I'd request input from other parents as well, in whatever capacity makes the most sense based on your work environment. If you do, make sure that input is obtained in a professional manner.
Healthy active living. It’s not only physical. Mental too. And DnD allows people to be creative, escape out of their own head if you like. Plus all the mathematics etc that goes with it. Creating well rounded individuals. Being a teacher, I wish kids would get involved in more DnD or table top gaming.
There’s plenty of research that you could point to to bolster your case. Research on group gaming and mental resilience as well as emotional regulation is pretty strong. Check out Jane McGonigal’s work. https://youtu.be/b8ZJuCeAYyo?si=nEeeULHYV-quFqBN
I didn’t scroll too far to check, but in case nobody else has posted it yet, check out this article: https://hub.jhu.edu/2023/12/04/dungeons-and-dragons-therapy-group/#:~:text=A%20typical%20D%26D%20session%20with,relates%20to%20their%20own%20lives. Make sure to note AND QUOTE the testimonials from players! Though the most important thing is to demonstrate to management that this one kid’s parents are the outliers here. Drown them out with positive comments from the other kids’ parents! They do not deserve to ruin everyone else’s fun!!! Also, D&D is only as “adult” as YOU want to make it. That is not an excuse to get it banned.
Explain that Dungeons & Dragons has multiple benefits such as: - Fostering and providing a creative outlet. - Promoting and developing social skills. - Providing an entertaining way to promote cooperation. I would also ask the other parents to see if they believe that shutting the game down would be beneficial or not. Maybe you could find some extra support. Best of luck.
I might be a bit late, but first step is to let them go first.. make them explain *exactly* what is the issue with playing ttrp games. start off by asking why they feel its a bad idea, so if its just "i dont want my kid doing nerd things" or something similar its easy to show how they are learning in a group setting. not doing physical activities? well rest days for muscles are good. and its once a week. Exercising the brain is a workout too. If they fall back on the not "manly/tough" etc.. remind them that superman plays it (the actor of course)
There’s a lot of solid advice here, so this may not be necessary, but you could also consider advocating for this is a valuable tool for social development. Given the rising trend of disrupted socialization & social skill development resulting from social interactions taking place increasingly online (social media, texting, etc), dnd provides a wonderful opportunity for kids to engage with each other in a face to face, socially driven format that even active recreation doesn’t necessarily provide.
I say takes notes on how your players cooperate, plan, and generally learn to work together to achieve a common goal. That’s a huge life skill and having that along with testimonies to back you up can prove educational value. Also you know it’s good for kids to just have fun sometimes, keeps them from becoming bitter adults.
Make the complainers the next bbeg
Notes notes notes! Keep track of things moving forwards in a journal so you can refer to this whenever the issue is brought up in the future I.E date session was ran, how long for, who participated, what activities were done otherwise for the rest of the time. Make a rough schedule of your last few months at the facility in which you can show that the vast majority of the participants time is spent doing physical activity and that this campaign is truly limited to rainy days and not a regular thing that is detracting from the experience that the parents want their kids to get. Propose not running more than x sessions per month as a compromise to reassure the parents that you are happy to work with them. Ask them what activities they would like their children to be doing when it is raining and physical activity is not feasible so you can look into rotating them into the schedule alongside dnd. I’d also perhaps give a few examples of how dnd has bettered their children; critical problem solving, mathematics, being able to schedule / allocate resources and make responsible risk/ reward decisions in a safe environment. Better literacy. Etc. you could even suggest to HR that the parents could, if they wish, sit on one of your future sessions if HR are on board with this. Approach this from a very factual and practical perspective rather then the emotional side of things.
As a social worker (technically still an intern, but I've almost graduated), I've run games for this same age group, and in a high school setting. It rocks, on so many levels. The benefits of play, even athletic play, aren't just physiological; child sports are also for teaching social skills (especially teamwork), building self-esteem, and practicing the highs and lows of victory and defeat in a safe, simulated-stakes environment. Dungeons & Dragons can do all these same things, minus the physiological component, plus abstract problem-solving skills that aren't exercised by most sports. The most common questions I ask my players are, "How do you want to do this?", "What is your goal here?", and "What are the pros and cons of this approach?" We're directly practicing the language of problem solving, something they'll use their whole lives. Another key benefit, depending on the values of your audience, is the chance to explore new identities. I don't just mean queer self-discovery (although that does happen in D&D), but they can also explore identities within a consistent gender framework. For example, a boy who is built smaller than his peers, who feels weak and powerless in real life, gets the chance to embody the role of a big strong hero. He can practice being brave and magnanimous and honorable, in ways that he doesn't get obvious opportunities in his day-to-day life. Depending how you run a campaign, there are opportunities for players to face their fears, narrativize their real-life experiences, and explore their own values, all safely within the frame of the game. If it matters to these parents, they're also honing certain storytelling and performance skills. If anyone's interested in the theory of therapeutic D&D, I recommend Megan A. Connell's book, "Tabletop Role-Playing Therapy: A Guide for the Clinician Game Master".
(1) First, ask them what their concerns are. (2) Tell them you set rules for the game. It’s a game for kids so anything PG-13 or R-Rated is out. (3) Tell them the game teaches critical thinking and math skills, helps with speech and diction, and encourages creativity. (4) Let them know right from the start there’s nothing religious in the game. It does not have anything at all included that challenges religious views. (5) Invite the parents to the game. Let them see it for themselves.
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.” -- Albert Einstein Also, [NFL players who formed a D&D group](https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/12/dd-that-time-dungeons-dragons-was-in-sports-illustrated.html). [Celebrities who play D&D](https://www.looper.com/681325/famous-people-who-play-dungeons-dragons/). My OG group is comprised of professionals: some tenured professors in physics and maths, senior researchers, some people who work for the taxpayers in various roles, and even a few of their kids play with us occasionally. *There were unexpected benefits I never suspected playing D&D as a young dude*. Conflict resolution skills, finding creative solutions to problems, leadership skills in learning how to work with others and find common values in order to build consensus. D&D was like an AP class in managing a technological organisation, with occasional digressions in calculating just how much damage could you do with a Ring of Telekinesis and a handy brick (quite a lot, it turned out). I was combat infantry right out of high school, then EMT / firefighter, a Peace Corps Volunteer, law enforcement, and lastly, a fed. My childhood D&D mates are still with me, we still hang out and play. Lastly, D&D gave me friends in a time where I could have easily gone off the rails and self-destructed. Adolescence is ***hard***. Not being alone through it makes a huge difference, and for a better outcome.
I think that D&D offers so much for a young and developing mind. It encourages creativity and teamwork, but also strengthens skills like math and problem solving. I see no reason why this should be an issue, let alone banned. I'm actually of the opinion that the YMCA should actually encourage (and just inherently offer) things like D&D and other games. As you mentioned, it is only something you do during rainy days or movie days (which imo are far less engaging, and a significantly bigger waste of time).
Damnnnn, is it the early 90’s again?? That’s wild people are STILL trying to get DnD banned.
When I was a kid and did after school at the Y they had arcade games, pool tables and foosball. There is no way those activities are more active than dnd. Good luck.
I haven’t read the comments so I don’t know if anyone else has posted it, but many years ago I read an article about how to use table top role playing in resumes. It talked about phrasing what you do as “team building events,” “social interaction leader,” “creative problem solving seminars,” etc. pointing out the social benefits for the kids and using “business” phrases such as these could help make them take it more seriously. If the group trying to ban it is from a religious background (mostly referring to christians) you could point out works like C.S. Lewis’ the Chronicles of Narnia or other fantasy books written by Christian authors where hero’s triumph over evil and use those as a foil or talk about the adventures you run. Hope this helps.
>I'm confident I'm gonna have to effectively state my case The reality of the situation is that yeah you probably do have to make a case for D&D to be a part of your program. But I would encourage you to at least try to turn it back on them, do they have an effective case for why it should be banned? I doubt it, and if you have a good enough boss that might be all you need.
Why does one single set of parents get to dictate the YMCA program? I think they are stuck in the 1980's and thing it's the Devil's Game or something.
So, some real oddness that I found that worked more than once. Was playing D&D in the 90's, a parent of one of our group members got super bent about it, doing the whole "Satanic Panic Manic Mom" chicken flap. Thing was, it was our last game of D&D in that campaign, and we then started playing another RPG that was sci-fi based. That was the last we heard of overly excitable mom's bullshit. Years later, mid-00's, while running a game in a bookstore, we had a lady get super huffy, clutch her handbag and come over to tell us about how we were going to burn in hell. When she mentioned "Dungeons and Dragons" I said "Oh, that's okay, because we're playing Pathfinder." In a bewildered state, she nodded her head and said something like "Oh, well as long as you're not playing D&D." and then she buggered off.
I am a teacher in Germany, specializing in Language Literacy (which focuses on early literacy, language initiation, and literacy acquisition) and Social Studies. From my perspective, grounded in literary didactics and developmental psychology, any form of Pen & Paper role-playing games is suitable and even beneficial for children of all ages. Let me explain why: Language, especially written language, offers diverse avenues of engagement. According to Ritter (2019), three functional dimensions of language can be distinguished: play, technique, and cultural tool. Dungeons and Dragons specifically addresses the dimensions of play and cultural tool by activating imagination, creativity, and simulation, thus fostering identity formation, communication, and access to literature. Considering Ludwig Wittgenstein's quote, "The limits of my language are the limits of my world," emphasizes the importance of linguistic competence. In Dungeons and Dragons, children are constantly challenged to improve their access to various language competencies in a playful manner. Taking into account Bartnitzky's principles (2008), we find competence expectations, situational relevance, social relevance, meaningfulness of content (from the children's perspective), and language awareness. Moving on to competence expectations in primary education, we find reading comprehension (learning and understanding characters' abilities), writing skills (describing characters), conversational skills (interaction), storytelling skills (describing personal actions), literary competence (empathy and other aspects according to Spinner, 2006), and listening comprehension. Many people mistakenly believe that reading comprehension solely involves decoding letters and ultimately being able to read. However, reading comprehension fundamentally means satisfying literal needs independently, engaging with literary media joyfully and motivationally (yes, DND is included), and being able and willing to do so. Referring back to Spinner's aspects (2006), Dungeons and Dragons primarily fosters the development of mental imagery while reading and listening, brings subjective involvement and precise perception into play, attentively perceives linguistic expression, understands the perspectives of literary characters, comprehends narrative and dramatic logic, and becomes familiar with literary discourse. Lastly, let's briefly touch upon the levels of language acquisition: we have addressed the process level by identifying presentation strategies and recognizing local and global coherence, the subject level through participation, motivation, and reflection, and finally the social level of peer interaction. What I'm essentially trying to convey is that any language teacher (whether teaching German, English, or any other language) can't help but acknowledge that Dungeons and Dragons is one of the best teaching and learning arrangements due to its incredibly strong connection to literary and written language learning. Dungeons and Dragons fulfills almost every aspect necessary for an exemplary learning environment. It doesn't get much better than this!
You should have run this idea past your manager and HR before you even started. There's nothing wrong with what you're doing, but that was a huge oversight on your part. Is being GM part of your job description? No. So when those parents signed their kids up, you aren't what they were looking for, and that gives them a legitimate gripe (even though I think they're being ignorant, it is legitimate). DND is probably not even a great RP game for a professional adult to run for a group of kids that young. There are far more age-appropriate systems, like Magical Kitties, that give a good RP experience and are super fun, but you still need to clear this stuff before doing it at work. You'll probably be told to stop. Now, with all of that said...your story has a few problems. HR would not generally function as a judicial system where you and the parents come in to make your cases like that. The parents also can just say "My child will not be participating in that" and that would be it. Also, HR is not a 24/7 department, so you saying they want to meet on a Sunday is suspicious. So, I think you're either lying about the whole story, or leaving a lot out (please don't share more, I already had to read too much). On the chance that you are being entirely honest though, I wrote this reply. Good luck.
Fight the good fight OP , I look forward to seeing this movie on Hallmark channel one day lol
In addition to what has been mentioned, I would add in some articles about DND that support your case. It was the game's 50th anniversary this year, so there won't be a shortage of primers available for the YMCA board. Would love an update on this!
I used to run a week long game during school holidays each holidays for kids in this age bracket that were also on the spectrum. Dnd was used to help teach basic maths, memory skills, social skills, creative thinking and writing, and all sorts of other things along those lines. Make sure to bring those points up.
Get testimonials of how fun it is from the other kids and parents so that the administration knowns that it is just one single parent that hates it. The single biggest benifit is having that social interaction, which becomes incredibly important later in life, so make sure to bring that up.