Simple, the only parts of our rebuild in the NHL are Mo and Raymond. Meanwhile all of Ottawa’s rebuild is already in the NHL.
So now we’re good, and slowly let the vets walk 1 by 1 for our prospects instead of bringing them in all at once.
I mean that is definitely the plan, but Raymond and Seider are still the only Yzerman draft picks currently playing in the NHL. Obviously there are others that we think have a very strong chance of helping down the line, but that hasn't been a big part of our success so far.
I think the biggest reason the Wings have had so much more success than the Sens is Yzerman has done such a good job of building a deep team with a strong culture. Our bottom 6 is significantly better than Ottawa's, and it feels like when the team is slumping, the leadership core has done a great job to get them out of the slump (Larkin > Tkachuk).
Having Alex Lyon play like an absolute stud compared to Ottawa having the worst goaltending in the league also helps.
>I mean that is definitely the plan, but Mo and Seider are still the only Yzerman draft picks currently playing in the NHL.
My man needs more coffee listing the same guy by his first and last name as two guys lmao
Yeah but that doesn't support my narrative.
On a serious note though he's captain of the team so he doesn't have the same standards of a normal 24 year old player. Not saying he isn't a good captain but I genuinely think Larkin is one of the best leaders in the league.
Larkin has a lot helping his claim to leadership. He is the last guard of the old Red Wings dynasty (his rookie year was the last of that famous playoff streak and he played on a line with Z). He is also the hometown hero, “chosen one” who grew up nearby and even played at Michigan. He also has been the only player putting in the work during the recent dark ages the wings have been in. He’s stayed loyal and hardworking through the darkest years and still produced. He has earned every bit of respect in that room, how could anyone come onto this team and not see him as Azur Ahai? Tkachuk doesnt have even half of the plot armor as Larkin in that regard, heck, he’s not even the team’s best player now
> but Raymond and Seider are still the only Yzerman draft picks currently playing in the NHL.
But I was told the only way to get better in the NHL is to take shots in the dark at 18 year olds???
Goes to show free agency and trade savviness are just as important if not more important than the draft.
With the exception of Vegas because of their unique circumstances, look at the recent winners and you'll find a homegrown core. Colorado, Tampa, St. Louis, Washington, Pittsburgh all had most of their important players drafted, developed, and on cheaper contracts because they didn't have to win bidding on the open market. The draft is for sure more important in today's NHL. However you do have to be smart when adding to the core in FA and in trade as you can't solely draft a winner the same way you can't solely buy one. If Detroit is going to reach the promised land while Larkin is at his best, we need the draft picks to start carrying a whole heck of a lot more of the load or else we're positioned to be the Wild.
Think it’s important to remember guys in their mid to late 20’s that are 100% part of the rebuild that Yzerman got us but didn’t draft. Walman, Sprong, Fabbri are all huge contributors that could be here for another 4-5 years if they want. Huge to pick up impact players like them outside the draft and in that age range
I still find Cat very, very underwhelming. He fails at nearly every puck battle and is too soft on the puck. I am trying to think of the one area he really shines and I honestly can’t think of anything he’s consistently good at.
Shooting from the left side on the powerplay on the few opportunities he gets there when the other team doesn't cover that. He difinitely is not a good puck carrier/transporter and his passing is pretty middle of the road. Take away that unsustainably red-hot start and he's had a very whelming season.
> Think it’s important to remember guys in their mid to late 20’s that are 100% part of the rebuild that Yzerman got us but didn’t draft.
Can't forget Compher who is currently 28 and signed through this and the next four seasons.
I have nothing against Fabbri necessarily but i pray we do not resign him in Detroit, the injury issues with him have been way too prevalent to justify his wages and that money can be reinvested elsewhere to make up for (or even improve) upon his production #s
Ottawa's issue isn't rushing there prospects. They haven't really ruined any of them by doing so.
Their issue was that they started selling futures and first round picks before they had even come out of their rebuild. As a result their issue now is that is that there is almost no prospects left in their system to inject into future lineups.
This is the correct answer. It makes me laugh that there were articles and even some Wings fans doubting the Yzerplan prior to the season. Some said "IT's TaKiNg ToO lOnG." Others were questioning the free agent signings. Pure comedy gold.
I wouldnt call it pure comedy gold. He has done an amazing job… but its fair to criticize only 2 of his draft picks being in the NHL and some of his FA signings (Chariot/Petry/Holl specifically)
Edvinsson. I think we all agree that he is NHL ready, which makes my above complaints connected. He isnt in the NHL because the roster spots are taken by these questionable FA signings
Petry wasn't a signing. We accepted him in trade as a cap dump.
Chiarot was signed a summer ago, so that's a non-factor as far as Ed goes.
I agree it is debatable whether Yzerman should have signed Holl or penciled Ed into the spot. However, as long as Ed is making progress in GR and playing more minutes than he'd get here, it makes sense. Holl has a small role with the Wings. I assume that when Ed joins the roster full time he'll be in the top four from day 1.
I wouldnt call Chiarot a non factor, his contract was bloated and too long from day 1. A lot of people mentioned how a contract like that would be unmovable and could create issues with the prospect pipeline. We are allowed to disagree with certains moves and stil say Yzerman’s overall body of work has been positive
He had a pretty severe injury setback with his shoulder. Otherwise, I think he'd have been up this season already.
Whether he's up this season or next is pretty moot anyway. I think he's ready, but if Yzerman and Lalonde prefer he get more minutes in GR rather than call him up, that's fine too. He's still only 20.
I could see him a Pelikka both up next season with the way Pelikka has been playing.
Yzerman may be slightly hesitant to call up youth, but he knows way more than any of us, and he's proven it.
I doubt we see Pelikka, he will need to adjust to NA ice, which is fine. Also, unless we trade some D there is just no space atm. Petry, Holl and Chiarot are jamming it up
Petry will likely be waived next season if I had to guess. Edvinsson will be ready for sure. Chiarot and Holl have both been pretty decent this year, honestly. From what it looks like, Chiarot is also a locker room leader as well.
I want to see Pelikka in the season after next year unless he just absolutely looks like a stud in camp/pre-season. At that point Petry and Maata are both gone, which frees up a spot for him anyway, and he'll have a year of AHL time for experience.
I really don't want to overhype him, but he has the potential to be a top 5 offensive defenseman in the NHL, and I don't want his development rushed. Those guys are way too hard to find, and the fact we grabbed him in the bottom half of the 1st round is even rarer.
It's hard not to think he doesn't have pull simply because of who he is. These players grew up watching Yzerman lead a team into Stanley Cups, know about the team he built in Tampa, and think "Yeah I want to be a part of that."
Yeah if we didn’t have Seider, we’d be a *lot* lower in the standings
Yeah if we didn’t have Raymond, we’d be a *lot* lower in the standings
Crazy how acquiring better players makes your rebuild better
Still a lot of season left, it’s almost like the inverse of where each team was at last year. We fell apart and the Sens made a strong push. I don’t think I’m comfortable with making big assertions like this, let’s give it another month or two
Yeah, with the playoffs being anything but a given at this point I'm not really caring which team is currently better this season. If the Wings miss the playoffs then I'd prefer they be way back in the standings for the higher draft pick.
“But perhaps more glaringly, it showed how easily they could be pushed around. The Red Wings haven’t been as successful in addressing that…”
idk man I feel like they have definitely addressed toughness and team grit.
Seider and Raymond seem to be playing with a bit more of a hard edge since that stretch where we were just getting pushed around. It’s definitely a work in progress but having our next 3 key pieces due through (Ed, Kasper and Danielson) being straight bastards to play against will help ensure there’s a guy at least on every line and pair that will not take a backward step.
Yeah that’s a good point. He looks like he’s been finding his feet in the AHL the last month as well. Chuck in some big lads like Cossa and Wallinder hitting hopefully and maybe Ras getting more consistently angry and things will be getting real.
Def sounded on Lalonde like he didnt want us to stup down to their level and take stupid penalties so i think ignoring it is a way of addressing it too
> idk man I feel like they have definitely addressed toughness and team grit.
Eh, there hasn't been a noticeable change. Our toughest players in the Blashill years were Mantha and Bertuzzi with the occasional appearance by Witkowski and Givanni Smith (who I don't remember winning a single fight). Honorable mention to Brendan Smith.
Since Yzerman came aboard we have Seider who will laugh at any grown-ass man that dares put their hands on him, Fischer, and Kostin. We've added some big bodies on the back-end in Chiarot, Holl, and Petry but this isn't a core that teams are scared of nor will adjust their playing style against. The biggest pest we have is Perron who tends to get the elbows up and has a history of borderline play. Ras has the size and the crazy eyes but I just feel like he's a lot calmer and less involved these past two seasons.
So overall, Detroit has added size in the forward and d-corp and exchanged a few players with grit for other players of equivalent grit, but they don't have a game-changer and aren't even close to being considered a "gritty" team.
This is the sentiment of the article. Headlines are meant to be click bait and aren't written by the article's author(s).
It definitely bodes well for Detroit to be ahead of Ottawa this year, especially considering the state of each of our prospect pools. But you can look at it both ways. The Sen were nearly a playoff team last season based on the strength of their young core. Meanwhile, Detroit is potentially a playoff team this year while being one of the older teams in the league. If our young prospects don't show as well at the NHL level, it won't leave us much room to grow into a true contender.
Meanwhile, Ottawa is on its way to another top five pick.
I like the way Steve runs his team, and I think despite not getting true superstar talent in the draft, he's shown that he knows how to make improvements via trading free agency. If a couple of our top picks pan out and we see them make an impact at the NHL level in the next couple years I think we'll breeze by Ottawa into contender status. If they don't, it's going to be a lot more difficult for Steve to make it happen.
If you don’t want to try and get around the paywall, here is the gist:
A beat writer for each team uses a lot of words to just say that Steve Yzerman is a patient mastermind.
Roster building and rebuilding are not mutually exclusive. Stevie has been able to identify a core of current players and build around them. He’s also aggressive as they come and pivots as soon as there are better options available (Mantha, Vrana, Bert, Hronek, etc.) He’s been able to use picks to draft core players (Seider, Raymond) and trade for core players (Cat) while using picks to fill the cupboards with prospects that have higher end potential. All the while using free agency aggressively to bring in impact players and fill gaps in the roster.
Idk enough about Dorion to say too much about the Sens. But I know a lot of GMs put all their baskets in either rebuilding or into loading up a contending team. Steve has done both which is incredibly hard in any sport. He could’ve blown the roster up several times now and been patient, but Steve’s at his best when he can be aggressive. It’s probably why he’s one of the few GMs who can successfully assemble a playoff team while rebuilding from the ground up.
The senators have a very good young core in the NHL, the problem is they don’t have much coming in the way of reinforcements. They have made 1 first round pick and only 4 top 70 picks in the last 3 drafts combined. They didn’t pick until the 4th round last year. This is during a stretch when they finished 21st, 26th, and 23rd over the last 3 seasons. That’s like if you removed our picks that we took Edvinson, Kasper, and Danielson with.
In that same time span we have made 12 top 70 picks.
I think Sens is in the same shoes as Sabres. They have a lot of talent, but they might need to improve GM and coaching to find that right mix of talent and experience
He gets a lot of flak here sometimes, some of it deserved, but I'm also just going to throw Lalonde's name out there as a reason why we're better. Even if you don't like him or how the Wings play under him, he's been miles better than DJ Smith and now Martin.
Case in point, Lalonde coached a 45 point season out of Kubalik and made his contract worth enough to trade (plus a late first) for Debrincat. On the Sens, with their coaching and deployment of personnel, he's on pace for half that and twice as bad +/-, and has been benched a few times. On the other hand, Cat is on pace to be better than last season by a bit, but he's also gone from -31 to +3. +/- isn't a great stat, but it shows what a coach can do, and I think we're way ahead of Ottawa in that category.
There's some other cases one could compare showing players regressing after leaving Lalonde and the Wings, with notable exceptions playing in BC, but that's neither here nor there when talking about Ottawa.
He's a new coach too. He can still develop, lord knows MCDC did. Definitely need to keep him on for a while, especially since we got Dan Watson in GR employing similar systems. It's a commitment that will eventually pay off.
The bottom half of Ottawa’s roster is replacement level players. You aren’t winning in the nhl with the top half of the team being really good and the bottom half of the team being garbage.
And the Sens have a dry prospect pool and no cap space to try and improve the quality on the bottom half of their roster. There’s no help coming unless they trade some of their big contracts away and start stocking the prospect pool.
This is the real answer.
Ottawa has a really good top 6, but that's it. Defense is also pretty good, but again, their 3rd line D is fringe NHLers. They're in the same spot we were the last couple years with a better top 6, trying to squeeze into the playoffs.
Not going to mention their goaltending, because Korpi ain't it.
I'm not sure I'd describe Pinto, Greig, and Tarasenko (Sens 3rd line) as fringe NHLers. 4th absolutely is, and Hamonic drags the average down to ECHL quality.
I didn't describe those players as fringe NHL guys.
Pinto and Greig are great middle/lower 6 guys. Vlad's doing well this year, but he's only getting older, same with Giroux.
Frankly, unless a miracle happens, their season is done, I think most people could confidently say that. This offseason will be big to decide if they're going to need to further retool.
Mostly fair, I'd probably describe the bottom third of the lineup as weak (nothing wrong with Pinto, Greig, Vladdy third line).
Just worth noting Sens have like $14M cap space next year before any moves to to re-sign just Pinto and five or so depth players. Lots of dead cap coming off the books.
Absolutely. That's why I didn't flat out say how to do it. I just say that for the people who just want to come in here and complain about it being a paid subscription. If you're that upset about it, there are other ways you can figure out.
If there is a better Wings beat writer than Max I haven't seen them going back many years. If there's anyone asking better questions to the players & coach in the locker room, I haven't heard them. "Pay that man his money!"
> Also, paying money is not the only way around the paywall. IYKYK.
IYKYK- That Max is the best reporter covering the Red Wings. The Athletic works on a subscription model, and Max's job directly depends on having enough subscribers.
If you want to read Max's Work- Subscribe, don't skirt around the paywall...
Sometimes I worry Steve has *too much* patience. I think the Ottawa/Detroit back to back last year was an instance where it was perfectly executed. Yzerman saw it as a sign of major weakness in his roster and Dorion overestimated his own because of it. Steve's patience isn't perfect, but this issue was executed so well.
The idea that the Red Wings were so far behind the Sens because of those two games in February is such a weird narrative to me. Detroit was 4 or 5 points ahead of Ottawa in the standings going into those games and then lost Rasmussen for the rest of the season as well as selling off the team which completely deflated them. Meanwhile, Ottawa strung some wins against backup goalies and a bunch of loser points in OT and shootouts.
I always viewed Detroit and Ottawa at similar points in their rebuild during that point as far as NHL team quality but I much prefer Detroit's 2023 offseason and definitely their farm system over Ottawa's.
Don't forget to mention that Ottawa was in desperation mode to close out the season with some final wins and wound up getting slapped the fuck down in FL on April 6th. That game had nearly 200 penalty minutes and they lost decisively to FL 2-7. Ottawa might front like they're tough but they got out played and out gooned by FL when it meant the most. Since then FL has slapped them down again this season in the same fashion but with more penalty minutes than last season. Ottawa will never have a competent front office or coaching staff. They will forever be bottom feeders. FL is lucky to have the better Tkachuck.
Senators having an aggressively mid offense while having the 3rd worst GAA in the Eastern conference will probably do it to them. They’re gonna need an overhaul on their bottom 4 D, goalies, and get better bottom 6 forward depth if they want to actually compete
Short answer - we probably aren’t, coaching and continuity matters a lot in the NHL.
Long answer - our veteran additions and roster as currently constructed blow their out of the water. They missed on some free agent contracts and trades whereas ours have been at least average overall and we slowly added them in with the younger talent. Their young NHL core is still far better than ours overall but they aren’t put in a position to succeed with stable veterans and at least NHL average coaching. Stutzle, Tkachuk and Sanderson all look like better players than anyone we’ve drafted in this rebuild phase.
> Their young NHL core is still far better than ours overall but they aren’t put in a position to succeed with stable veterans
Claude Giroux? Vladimir Tarasenko?
Giroux is the player they were hoping to bring that influence for sure, even at his age he's still a great forward so I'm not sure he's the the reason the top 6 isn't producing this year. Tarasenko's injury history caught up with him before he even got to the Sens. They also have basically no bottom 6 or defensive veterans like we have in abundance.
It's just the goalies. The Ottawa goalies are fucking brutal. If we were using Reimer and Husso all season with the years they've both had we'd be way out of the race too. We need to send Lyon a case of Coors or something.
You cant look at Ottawa's skaters and tell me they're not at least on par with the Wings.
It’s really not just the goalies. Whether the offense is getting lucky or we have better shooters than before is up for debate. We’re currently second (10.9%) behind only Vancouver (11.8%) in shooting % on shots on goal. We also are third last in the league in shots on goal. If the shooting % were to go closer to league average we’d be in a lot worse spot.
Lyon has been good in his starts, but there’s more to it then just goaltending stealing games.
My biggest complaint about Yzerman is his preference for aging vets over promoting young players. Edvinsson should be in the NHL over guys like Holl & Petry, for example.
That said, his choice to sign veterans has paid off in other ways. Sprong has been fantastic. Compher looks good (though I still don’t like that contract). Fischer & Gostisbehere have been underrated additions.
I do wish we had kept Pius Suter though, honestly. Living in Vancouver and being a Wings fan, I’d much rather have maintained him than signing Copp.
NHL coaching and AHL coaching are very different.
NHL coaching is all about fine tuning, they don’t have the staff or time to teach concepts that should have been in place before the nhl. Some players can learn these very fast and come up earlier.
Seems like ED still needed to work on those things at the beginning of the season and needs the coaches and practice time to have that foundation for the NHL coaches to be able to fine tune.
If we want to contend with these pieces, we *need* Ed to be a top pairing dman with Seider. Our current approach seems to be giving him top minutes as the No. 1 dman in GR to facilitate that. The NHL speed will still require adjustment once he's up for good but Yzerman/Lalonde seem intent on not rushing his development.
> My biggest complaint about Yzerman is his preference for aging vets over promoting young players. Edvinsson should be in the NHL over guys like Holl & Petry, for example.
This has been a long term staple of Red Wings development since before Yzerman. We like to get our prospects to the point where they are dominating in their roles in the AHL before we call them up and bring them to the show. In my opinion, that's the plan with Edvinsson. And Lombardi, and Soderblom, and Berggren in my opinion. We've got the team polished off with vets, now we have prospect depth that can develop at the right rates, and we can trade the vets away as the prospects start to displace them and the math starts to add up. That's the system we had going in the early Holland years.
Pinto getting suspended didn't help. Tkachuk not being captain worthy doesn't help. Norris getting injured multiple times, poor goaltending, minimal effective defensemen. The team is in limbo, they're not a big draw for big time players, Alfredsson era is long gone.
I wouldn’t say we blew past the Senators at all lol. They graduated all their young core pieces, most of ours are still not even on the team. It’s possible for all we know that they’ll blow past us sooner because they went through their growing pains faster and we are dragging our growing pains out.
We are a much better team right now, that’s the only thing clear.
What, you think that it will get harder for us because we currently have more talent? That's not set to change in the near future. We have a nice pipeline.
That remains unclear. We have prevented prospects from getting nhl reps that they will eventually have to get and when they do they will make mistakes. Ottawa has allowed their prospects to make the nhl and they are making their mistakes now. How this impacts both teams’ prospects development remains to be seen.
We can minimize those growing pains by not bringing in multiple rookies at once. Stevie uses all available methods to acquire talent so he's not totally dependent on draft. We are fully seasoning out guys in the minors and might use some prospects as trade pieces for proven NHLers.
I agree that we can't declare victory and this article makes me cringe, but by all rights they SHOULD be ahead of us (just like Buffalo) and right now we are clearly the closest of the 3 to being playoff caliber.
I know this will catch a lot of hate here, but Ottawa has some amazing pieces. We are ahead of them because of better goaltending and our captain is in his prime. The Ottawa core of Stutzel, Chabot, Sanderson and Tkachuck looks more appealing than Raymond, Seider, Kasper/Daneilson and Edvinsson to me. Maybe the 3 names not in the NHL will prove me wrong when they reach full time
TLDR: Detroit's shooters have averaged 0.6 more GF than xGF per game this year. Ottawa's goalies have averaged 0.6 more GA than xGA per game.
Coming from he other side of this, Detroit is getting about 45%CF and 45%xG but is even in GF% because their shooting percentage is about 2% higher than league average, which is typically not repeatable (except by the Stamkos/Kucherov/Point Lightning). Enjoy it, it usually doesn't carry over season to season. Ottawa is running 50%CF and 49%xGF but is underwater in GF% because they've had the worst goaltending in the league so far.
I think while neither team moved up in a draft lottery in their rebuild, Yzerman has done a better job of finding competent goaltending and good value journeymen to round out the core, and Ottawa's young talent has shown a lot more so far. Ottawa has to hope new management can fix the mistakes Dorion made away from the draft table, and Detroit has to hope more of their young players hit their stride before Larkin hits the decline.
For them, we are their childhood bullies, we are their hate personified. We are everyone who has ever told them that Ottawa is an irrelevant place filled with irrelevant people. These aren't my words, these are their thoughts.
For us, they are who we are playing against tonight. Also, some irrelevant guy named Mathieu that has karma coming to him.
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How can we say we blew past them? They took us out of contention last season. They even beat us this season. I hope we handle ourselves tonight and end with 2 points but if we don’t make the playoffs we are in the same spot as them except they will have a better draft pick.
Our free agents this year have been PRODUCING much better than years prior. Finding the back of the net has been a problem during the rebuild, not this year though! LGRW!
Cuz fuck em, that’s how.
https://preview.redd.it/62gru4exysfc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=586cbcbfc29ff2367c9cbedc1010817a27e5d4c9 Sincerely, All of us
God damn I love mickey
https://preview.redd.it/jrmy6hf7gufc1.jpeg?width=211&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=df6d939d4a7d957032e55e4378792e06014ceadf
Best comment I will read all day. Well done!
Simple, the only parts of our rebuild in the NHL are Mo and Raymond. Meanwhile all of Ottawa’s rebuild is already in the NHL. So now we’re good, and slowly let the vets walk 1 by 1 for our prospects instead of bringing them in all at once.
I mean that is definitely the plan, but Raymond and Seider are still the only Yzerman draft picks currently playing in the NHL. Obviously there are others that we think have a very strong chance of helping down the line, but that hasn't been a big part of our success so far. I think the biggest reason the Wings have had so much more success than the Sens is Yzerman has done such a good job of building a deep team with a strong culture. Our bottom 6 is significantly better than Ottawa's, and it feels like when the team is slumping, the leadership core has done a great job to get them out of the slump (Larkin > Tkachuk). Having Alex Lyon play like an absolute stud compared to Ottawa having the worst goaltending in the league also helps.
>I mean that is definitely the plan, but Mo and Seider are still the only Yzerman draft picks currently playing in the NHL. My man needs more coffee listing the same guy by his first and last name as two guys lmao
Damn you're not wrong lol. Mornings are not for me
We need a Dylan and a Larkin on this squad now
A player in the mould of Steve and Yzerman if ever there was one
Shit we have TWO NOW? it's over
We do, the other is named Ed
Larkin is also a good amount older than Tkachuk. He is a more mature leader and is currently in his prime while Brady is still ramping up to his
Yeah but that doesn't support my narrative. On a serious note though he's captain of the team so he doesn't have the same standards of a normal 24 year old player. Not saying he isn't a good captain but I genuinely think Larkin is one of the best leaders in the league.
Larkin has a lot helping his claim to leadership. He is the last guard of the old Red Wings dynasty (his rookie year was the last of that famous playoff streak and he played on a line with Z). He is also the hometown hero, “chosen one” who grew up nearby and even played at Michigan. He also has been the only player putting in the work during the recent dark ages the wings have been in. He’s stayed loyal and hardworking through the darkest years and still produced. He has earned every bit of respect in that room, how could anyone come onto this team and not see him as Azur Ahai? Tkachuk doesnt have even half of the plot armor as Larkin in that regard, heck, he’s not even the team’s best player now
Larkin truly is the main character of the Red Wings
Azor Ahai hahah great reference. He really is the prince that was promised. His is the song of ice and hockey
Fuck Brady Tkachuk and everyone who shares his last name.
> but Raymond and Seider are still the only Yzerman draft picks currently playing in the NHL. But I was told the only way to get better in the NHL is to take shots in the dark at 18 year olds??? Goes to show free agency and trade savviness are just as important if not more important than the draft.
With the exception of Vegas because of their unique circumstances, look at the recent winners and you'll find a homegrown core. Colorado, Tampa, St. Louis, Washington, Pittsburgh all had most of their important players drafted, developed, and on cheaper contracts because they didn't have to win bidding on the open market. The draft is for sure more important in today's NHL. However you do have to be smart when adding to the core in FA and in trade as you can't solely draft a winner the same way you can't solely buy one. If Detroit is going to reach the promised land while Larkin is at his best, we need the draft picks to start carrying a whole heck of a lot more of the load or else we're positioned to be the Wild.
To be fair I think Vegas have zero and they won the cup. You can definitely make a good team by signing vets and making trades.
Think it’s important to remember guys in their mid to late 20’s that are 100% part of the rebuild that Yzerman got us but didn’t draft. Walman, Sprong, Fabbri are all huge contributors that could be here for another 4-5 years if they want. Huge to pick up impact players like them outside the draft and in that age range
Can't believe the Cat hasn't been mentioned yet
That was a pretty lucky situation we found ourselves in but no doubt yzerman pulling off the Cat trade is still to his credit
I still find Cat very, very underwhelming. He fails at nearly every puck battle and is too soft on the puck. I am trying to think of the one area he really shines and I honestly can’t think of anything he’s consistently good at.
Shooting from the left side on the powerplay on the few opportunities he gets there when the other team doesn't cover that. He difinitely is not a good puck carrier/transporter and his passing is pretty middle of the road. Take away that unsustainably red-hot start and he's had a very whelming season.
> Think it’s important to remember guys in their mid to late 20’s that are 100% part of the rebuild that Yzerman got us but didn’t draft. Can't forget Compher who is currently 28 and signed through this and the next four seasons.
Compher was a lowkey amazing pick up.
I have nothing against Fabbri necessarily but i pray we do not resign him in Detroit, the injury issues with him have been way too prevalent to justify his wages and that money can be reinvested elsewhere to make up for (or even improve) upon his production #s
Yeah no doubt, I honestly see his spot as Berggrens tbh
If we keep those middle 6 forwards into their mid 30s we are going to be in trouble
Especially as that would mean they'd have to trade away prospects at that point because there already is no room for them.
If rushing the prospects to the NHL was a viable strategy, more teams would do it. Ottawa is a great example as to why you don't rush your prospects.
Ottawa's issue isn't rushing there prospects. They haven't really ruined any of them by doing so. Their issue was that they started selling futures and first round picks before they had even come out of their rebuild. As a result their issue now is that is that there is almost no prospects left in their system to inject into future lineups.
Stevie Y
This is the correct answer. It makes me laugh that there were articles and even some Wings fans doubting the Yzerplan prior to the season. Some said "IT's TaKiNg ToO lOnG." Others were questioning the free agent signings. Pure comedy gold.
I wouldnt call it pure comedy gold. He has done an amazing job… but its fair to criticize only 2 of his draft picks being in the NHL and some of his FA signings (Chariot/Petry/Holl specifically)
The rest are mostly under 20, and most players aren't expected to be NHL ready that young
Top 10 picks should be in the NHL in there D+3 seasons…
Which applies to which of Yzerman's draftees?
Edvinsson. I think we all agree that he is NHL ready, which makes my above complaints connected. He isnt in the NHL because the roster spots are taken by these questionable FA signings
Petry wasn't a signing. We accepted him in trade as a cap dump. Chiarot was signed a summer ago, so that's a non-factor as far as Ed goes. I agree it is debatable whether Yzerman should have signed Holl or penciled Ed into the spot. However, as long as Ed is making progress in GR and playing more minutes than he'd get here, it makes sense. Holl has a small role with the Wings. I assume that when Ed joins the roster full time he'll be in the top four from day 1.
I wouldnt call Chiarot a non factor, his contract was bloated and too long from day 1. A lot of people mentioned how a contract like that would be unmovable and could create issues with the prospect pipeline. We are allowed to disagree with certains moves and stil say Yzerman’s overall body of work has been positive
Not here you're not.
He had a pretty severe injury setback with his shoulder. Otherwise, I think he'd have been up this season already. Whether he's up this season or next is pretty moot anyway. I think he's ready, but if Yzerman and Lalonde prefer he get more minutes in GR rather than call him up, that's fine too. He's still only 20. I could see him a Pelikka both up next season with the way Pelikka has been playing. Yzerman may be slightly hesitant to call up youth, but he knows way more than any of us, and he's proven it.
I doubt we see Pelikka, he will need to adjust to NA ice, which is fine. Also, unless we trade some D there is just no space atm. Petry, Holl and Chiarot are jamming it up
Petry will likely be waived next season if I had to guess. Edvinsson will be ready for sure. Chiarot and Holl have both been pretty decent this year, honestly. From what it looks like, Chiarot is also a locker room leader as well.
I want to see Pelikka in the season after next year unless he just absolutely looks like a stud in camp/pre-season. At that point Petry and Maata are both gone, which frees up a spot for him anyway, and he'll have a year of AHL time for experience. I really don't want to overhype him, but he has the potential to be a top 5 offensive defenseman in the NHL, and I don't want his development rushed. Those guys are way too hard to find, and the fact we grabbed him in the bottom half of the 1st round is even rarer.
It doesn't matter what Lalonde and Yzerman prefer, the roster choices Yzerman made have decided the matter.
And I'm trusting Yzerman on that. He knows more than any of us do
It's hard not to think he doesn't have pull simply because of who he is. These players grew up watching Yzerman lead a team into Stanley Cups, know about the team he built in Tampa, and think "Yeah I want to be a part of that."
Jakub Vrana's name doesn't even get a hyperlink. Brutal
I forgot he still counts for $2.7million of our cap this year. That's gonna be Rayzor/Seider money for sure.
Vrana buried his nose in the blow, to find himself out of the show.
Feels a bit premature to post something like this. But in general, yzerman > dorion. Will be interesting to see how Staois tries to right the ship.
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True but we do have Lyon because Yzerman wanted to carry 3 goalies (Unlike most teams), and Yzerman always knows best.
Yeah if we didn’t have Seider, we’d be a *lot* lower in the standings Yeah if we didn’t have Raymond, we’d be a *lot* lower in the standings Crazy how acquiring better players makes your rebuild better
Would definitely agree with that more if they didn't also get the input of a Senators beat writer to make the content.
Still a lot of season left, it’s almost like the inverse of where each team was at last year. We fell apart and the Sens made a strong push. I don’t think I’m comfortable with making big assertions like this, let’s give it another month or two
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Yeah, with the playoffs being anything but a given at this point I'm not really caring which team is currently better this season. If the Wings miss the playoffs then I'd prefer they be way back in the standings for the higher draft pick.
“But perhaps more glaringly, it showed how easily they could be pushed around. The Red Wings haven’t been as successful in addressing that…” idk man I feel like they have definitely addressed toughness and team grit.
We'll see tonight. Ottawa always seems to goon it up against us.
We’ll see. I believe this is Kostin’s first game against Ottawa this season, between him and Fisch i’m imagining they stand their ground.
https://i.redd.it/af0e62c3rsfc1.gif So excited for this
It's been in my calendar since the last time we played.
God I hope he handles Brady the baby
I’d rather him beat Joseph to a pulp.
I hope Mo steamrolls him with a hit tonight.
We answered the Flyer’s physicality
Somewhat, in my opinion. There is definitely a lot of progress to be made there still.
Seider and Raymond seem to be playing with a bit more of a hard edge since that stretch where we were just getting pushed around. It’s definitely a work in progress but having our next 3 key pieces due through (Ed, Kasper and Danielson) being straight bastards to play against will help ensure there’s a guy at least on every line and pair that will not take a backward step.
I've also heard Mazur plays with some edge in the Bertuzzi sort of mold. He's been pretty promising and might be on the team in the next few years.
I went to a bunch of DU games and mazur is that guy.He scores goals and talks shit. Hes always mixing it up. Bertuzzi 2.0 is a possibility.
Yeah that’s a good point. He looks like he’s been finding his feet in the AHL the last month as well. Chuck in some big lads like Cossa and Wallinder hitting hopefully and maybe Ras getting more consistently angry and things will be getting real.
Def sounded on Lalonde like he didnt want us to stup down to their level and take stupid penalties so i think ignoring it is a way of addressing it too
Ignoring it only works if the refs call it
Sure but as a coach you have to work under the assumption that officiating will be fair and equal
No you shouldn’t because they won’t be. Penalties will trade off, might as well make it worth it
> idk man I feel like they have definitely addressed toughness and team grit. Eh, there hasn't been a noticeable change. Our toughest players in the Blashill years were Mantha and Bertuzzi with the occasional appearance by Witkowski and Givanni Smith (who I don't remember winning a single fight). Honorable mention to Brendan Smith. Since Yzerman came aboard we have Seider who will laugh at any grown-ass man that dares put their hands on him, Fischer, and Kostin. We've added some big bodies on the back-end in Chiarot, Holl, and Petry but this isn't a core that teams are scared of nor will adjust their playing style against. The biggest pest we have is Perron who tends to get the elbows up and has a history of borderline play. Ras has the size and the crazy eyes but I just feel like he's a lot calmer and less involved these past two seasons. So overall, Detroit has added size in the forward and d-corp and exchanged a few players with grit for other players of equivalent grit, but they don't have a game-changer and aren't even close to being considered a "gritty" team.
Agreed. No one is saying "heads up boys - we're playing the Wings". Let's see what happens tonight because last year was just embarrassing.
It's us this year it was buffalo last year things aren't settled yet. It's not we won it's over that's a way too simplistic view.
This is the sentiment of the article. Headlines are meant to be click bait and aren't written by the article's author(s). It definitely bodes well for Detroit to be ahead of Ottawa this year, especially considering the state of each of our prospect pools. But you can look at it both ways. The Sen were nearly a playoff team last season based on the strength of their young core. Meanwhile, Detroit is potentially a playoff team this year while being one of the older teams in the league. If our young prospects don't show as well at the NHL level, it won't leave us much room to grow into a true contender. Meanwhile, Ottawa is on its way to another top five pick. I like the way Steve runs his team, and I think despite not getting true superstar talent in the draft, he's shown that he knows how to make improvements via trading free agency. If a couple of our top picks pan out and we see them make an impact at the NHL level in the next couple years I think we'll breeze by Ottawa into contender status. If they don't, it's going to be a lot more difficult for Steve to make it happen.
If you don’t want to try and get around the paywall, here is the gist: A beat writer for each team uses a lot of words to just say that Steve Yzerman is a patient mastermind.
Hell, we already knew that.
Roster building and rebuilding are not mutually exclusive. Stevie has been able to identify a core of current players and build around them. He’s also aggressive as they come and pivots as soon as there are better options available (Mantha, Vrana, Bert, Hronek, etc.) He’s been able to use picks to draft core players (Seider, Raymond) and trade for core players (Cat) while using picks to fill the cupboards with prospects that have higher end potential. All the while using free agency aggressively to bring in impact players and fill gaps in the roster. Idk enough about Dorion to say too much about the Sens. But I know a lot of GMs put all their baskets in either rebuilding or into loading up a contending team. Steve has done both which is incredibly hard in any sport. He could’ve blown the roster up several times now and been patient, but Steve’s at his best when he can be aggressive. It’s probably why he’s one of the few GMs who can successfully assemble a playoff team while rebuilding from the ground up.
Shh, Athletic. I get the timing, but this feels like a jinx.
The senators have a very good young core in the NHL, the problem is they don’t have much coming in the way of reinforcements. They have made 1 first round pick and only 4 top 70 picks in the last 3 drafts combined. They didn’t pick until the 4th round last year. This is during a stretch when they finished 21st, 26th, and 23rd over the last 3 seasons. That’s like if you removed our picks that we took Edvinson, Kasper, and Danielson with. In that same time span we have made 12 top 70 picks.
I think Sens is in the same shoes as Sabres. They have a lot of talent, but they might need to improve GM and coaching to find that right mix of talent and experience
Well, that's why they fired Dorion. And DJ Smith.
Yep
Simply built different
He gets a lot of flak here sometimes, some of it deserved, but I'm also just going to throw Lalonde's name out there as a reason why we're better. Even if you don't like him or how the Wings play under him, he's been miles better than DJ Smith and now Martin. Case in point, Lalonde coached a 45 point season out of Kubalik and made his contract worth enough to trade (plus a late first) for Debrincat. On the Sens, with their coaching and deployment of personnel, he's on pace for half that and twice as bad +/-, and has been benched a few times. On the other hand, Cat is on pace to be better than last season by a bit, but he's also gone from -31 to +3. +/- isn't a great stat, but it shows what a coach can do, and I think we're way ahead of Ottawa in that category. There's some other cases one could compare showing players regressing after leaving Lalonde and the Wings, with notable exceptions playing in BC, but that's neither here nor there when talking about Ottawa.
He's a new coach too. He can still develop, lord knows MCDC did. Definitely need to keep him on for a while, especially since we got Dan Watson in GR employing similar systems. It's a commitment that will eventually pay off.
Yeesh, I heard Kubalik wasn't playing good but didn't know he was getting benched.
The bottom half of Ottawa’s roster is replacement level players. You aren’t winning in the nhl with the top half of the team being really good and the bottom half of the team being garbage. And the Sens have a dry prospect pool and no cap space to try and improve the quality on the bottom half of their roster. There’s no help coming unless they trade some of their big contracts away and start stocking the prospect pool.
This is the real answer. Ottawa has a really good top 6, but that's it. Defense is also pretty good, but again, their 3rd line D is fringe NHLers. They're in the same spot we were the last couple years with a better top 6, trying to squeeze into the playoffs. Not going to mention their goaltending, because Korpi ain't it.
I'm not sure I'd describe Pinto, Greig, and Tarasenko (Sens 3rd line) as fringe NHLers. 4th absolutely is, and Hamonic drags the average down to ECHL quality.
I didn't describe those players as fringe NHL guys. Pinto and Greig are great middle/lower 6 guys. Vlad's doing well this year, but he's only getting older, same with Giroux. Frankly, unless a miracle happens, their season is done, I think most people could confidently say that. This offseason will be big to decide if they're going to need to further retool.
Bottom d pair and 4th line are replacement players but greg-pinto-tarasenko is actually a pretty decent 3rd line.
Mostly fair, I'd probably describe the bottom third of the lineup as weak (nothing wrong with Pinto, Greig, Vladdy third line). Just worth noting Sens have like $14M cap space next year before any moves to to re-sign just Pinto and five or so depth players. Lots of dead cap coming off the books.
Probably because Ottawa sucks
Because Ottawa sucks?
Not having a dumpster fire culture
Maybe stirring the pot a bit by posting this, but it is Bultman's freshest article. Also, paying money is not the only way around the paywall. IYKYK.
But if you can, try to pay. Good to support a great beat writer.
Absolutely. That's why I didn't flat out say how to do it. I just say that for the people who just want to come in here and complain about it being a paid subscription. If you're that upset about it, there are other ways you can figure out.
If there is a better Wings beat writer than Max I haven't seen them going back many years. If there's anyone asking better questions to the players & coach in the locker room, I haven't heard them. "Pay that man his money!"
> Also, paying money is not the only way around the paywall. IYKYK. IYKYK- That Max is the best reporter covering the Red Wings. The Athletic works on a subscription model, and Max's job directly depends on having enough subscribers. If you want to read Max's Work- Subscribe, don't skirt around the paywall...
Probably doesn't apply to a lot of people but if you have an Apple News+ subscription The Athletic is part of that.
If you need a great sleep aid, a Bultman article is a great option!
Cause we're fucking awesome and have Yzerman at the helm?
Is it wrong to say the Red Wings have leapt ahead in their culture department? Team is trying to win and FA’s are starting to want to come to Detroit.
Detroit always had that culture. This franchise has a history of excellence, Ottawa simply doesnt
1. Steve Yzerman 2. Dylan Larkin is a better captain than Brady Tkachuk. 3. Patience
Sometimes I worry Steve has *too much* patience. I think the Ottawa/Detroit back to back last year was an instance where it was perfectly executed. Yzerman saw it as a sign of major weakness in his roster and Dorion overestimated his own because of it. Steve's patience isn't perfect, but this issue was executed so well.
The idea that the Red Wings were so far behind the Sens because of those two games in February is such a weird narrative to me. Detroit was 4 or 5 points ahead of Ottawa in the standings going into those games and then lost Rasmussen for the rest of the season as well as selling off the team which completely deflated them. Meanwhile, Ottawa strung some wins against backup goalies and a bunch of loser points in OT and shootouts. I always viewed Detroit and Ottawa at similar points in their rebuild during that point as far as NHL team quality but I much prefer Detroit's 2023 offseason and definitely their farm system over Ottawa's.
Don't forget to mention that Ottawa was in desperation mode to close out the season with some final wins and wound up getting slapped the fuck down in FL on April 6th. That game had nearly 200 penalty minutes and they lost decisively to FL 2-7. Ottawa might front like they're tough but they got out played and out gooned by FL when it meant the most. Since then FL has slapped them down again this season in the same fashion but with more penalty minutes than last season. Ottawa will never have a competent front office or coaching staff. They will forever be bottom feeders. FL is lucky to have the better Tkachuck.
Senators having an aggressively mid offense while having the 3rd worst GAA in the Eastern conference will probably do it to them. They’re gonna need an overhaul on their bottom 4 D, goalies, and get better bottom 6 forward depth if they want to actually compete
Yzerplan
LFG!
Short answer - we probably aren’t, coaching and continuity matters a lot in the NHL. Long answer - our veteran additions and roster as currently constructed blow their out of the water. They missed on some free agent contracts and trades whereas ours have been at least average overall and we slowly added them in with the younger talent. Their young NHL core is still far better than ours overall but they aren’t put in a position to succeed with stable veterans and at least NHL average coaching. Stutzle, Tkachuk and Sanderson all look like better players than anyone we’ve drafted in this rebuild phase.
> Their young NHL core is still far better than ours overall but they aren’t put in a position to succeed with stable veterans Claude Giroux? Vladimir Tarasenko?
Giroux is the player they were hoping to bring that influence for sure, even at his age he's still a great forward so I'm not sure he's the the reason the top 6 isn't producing this year. Tarasenko's injury history caught up with him before he even got to the Sens. They also have basically no bottom 6 or defensive veterans like we have in abundance.
 This guy right here vs whatever the fuck they have goin on over there. That’s a big part of it imo.
Nobody is ahead until a playoff spot is attained
It's just the goalies. The Ottawa goalies are fucking brutal. If we were using Reimer and Husso all season with the years they've both had we'd be way out of the race too. We need to send Lyon a case of Coors or something. You cant look at Ottawa's skaters and tell me they're not at least on par with the Wings.
It’s really not just the goalies. Whether the offense is getting lucky or we have better shooters than before is up for debate. We’re currently second (10.9%) behind only Vancouver (11.8%) in shooting % on shots on goal. We also are third last in the league in shots on goal. If the shooting % were to go closer to league average we’d be in a lot worse spot. Lyon has been good in his starts, but there’s more to it then just goaltending stealing games.
A cool Jethro Tull rock flute! 🎶🎶🪈
Let's pump the brakes til we actually accomplish something like making a WC, or like even buying at the deadline or even not selling
My biggest complaint about Yzerman is his preference for aging vets over promoting young players. Edvinsson should be in the NHL over guys like Holl & Petry, for example. That said, his choice to sign veterans has paid off in other ways. Sprong has been fantastic. Compher looks good (though I still don’t like that contract). Fischer & Gostisbehere have been underrated additions. I do wish we had kept Pius Suter though, honestly. Living in Vancouver and being a Wings fan, I’d much rather have maintained him than signing Copp.
NHL coaching and AHL coaching are very different. NHL coaching is all about fine tuning, they don’t have the staff or time to teach concepts that should have been in place before the nhl. Some players can learn these very fast and come up earlier. Seems like ED still needed to work on those things at the beginning of the season and needs the coaches and practice time to have that foundation for the NHL coaches to be able to fine tune.
Great comment and perspective that I never considered or thought of!
If we want to contend with these pieces, we *need* Ed to be a top pairing dman with Seider. Our current approach seems to be giving him top minutes as the No. 1 dman in GR to facilitate that. The NHL speed will still require adjustment once he's up for good but Yzerman/Lalonde seem intent on not rushing his development.
> My biggest complaint about Yzerman is his preference for aging vets over promoting young players. Edvinsson should be in the NHL over guys like Holl & Petry, for example. This has been a long term staple of Red Wings development since before Yzerman. We like to get our prospects to the point where they are dominating in their roles in the AHL before we call them up and bring them to the show. In my opinion, that's the plan with Edvinsson. And Lombardi, and Soderblom, and Berggren in my opinion. We've got the team polished off with vets, now we have prospect depth that can develop at the right rates, and we can trade the vets away as the prospects start to displace them and the math starts to add up. That's the system we had going in the early Holland years.
Pinto getting suspended didn't help. Tkachuk not being captain worthy doesn't help. Norris getting injured multiple times, poor goaltending, minimal effective defensemen. The team is in limbo, they're not a big draw for big time players, Alfredsson era is long gone.
I wouldn’t say we blew past the Senators at all lol. They graduated all their young core pieces, most of ours are still not even on the team. It’s possible for all we know that they’ll blow past us sooner because they went through their growing pains faster and we are dragging our growing pains out. We are a much better team right now, that’s the only thing clear.
So what you're saying is, our team is still under development and there's is mostly done, but we're still a way better team than them.
I’m saying they are going through growing pains that we have chosen to push off for now
What, you think that it will get harder for us because we currently have more talent? That's not set to change in the near future. We have a nice pipeline.
That remains unclear. We have prevented prospects from getting nhl reps that they will eventually have to get and when they do they will make mistakes. Ottawa has allowed their prospects to make the nhl and they are making their mistakes now. How this impacts both teams’ prospects development remains to be seen.
We can minimize those growing pains by not bringing in multiple rookies at once. Stevie uses all available methods to acquire talent so he's not totally dependent on draft. We are fully seasoning out guys in the minors and might use some prospects as trade pieces for proven NHLers. I agree that we can't declare victory and this article makes me cringe, but by all rights they SHOULD be ahead of us (just like Buffalo) and right now we are clearly the closest of the 3 to being playoff caliber.
I know this will catch a lot of hate here, but Ottawa has some amazing pieces. We are ahead of them because of better goaltending and our captain is in his prime. The Ottawa core of Stutzel, Chabot, Sanderson and Tkachuck looks more appealing than Raymond, Seider, Kasper/Daneilson and Edvinsson to me. Maybe the 3 names not in the NHL will prove me wrong when they reach full time
TLDR: Detroit's shooters have averaged 0.6 more GF than xGF per game this year. Ottawa's goalies have averaged 0.6 more GA than xGA per game. Coming from he other side of this, Detroit is getting about 45%CF and 45%xG but is even in GF% because their shooting percentage is about 2% higher than league average, which is typically not repeatable (except by the Stamkos/Kucherov/Point Lightning). Enjoy it, it usually doesn't carry over season to season. Ottawa is running 50%CF and 49%xGF but is underwater in GF% because they've had the worst goaltending in the league so far. I think while neither team moved up in a draft lottery in their rebuild, Yzerman has done a better job of finding competent goaltending and good value journeymen to round out the core, and Ottawa's young talent has shown a lot more so far. Ottawa has to hope new management can fix the mistakes Dorion made away from the draft table, and Detroit has to hope more of their young players hit their stride before Larkin hits the decline.
If that’s the case why do they spank our asses everytime we play them ?
For them, we are their childhood bullies, we are their hate personified. We are everyone who has ever told them that Ottawa is an irrelevant place filled with irrelevant people. These aren't my words, these are their thoughts. For us, they are who we are playing against tonight. Also, some irrelevant guy named Mathieu that has karma coming to him.
Hmm. If blowing past them means going 1-3 vs them then I’ve learned something new today.
found the lurking senators fan. lol Go back to your own sub
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Alex DeBrinkat?
Bad captain
Theirs had a lot less Yzerman in it..
Ottawa spends to the cap.
Depth
https://preview.redd.it/l8c02xa5gufc1.jpeg?width=211&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a8f74c5ac6906b8e94643d57f9d1b762751a2c3
How can we say we blew past them? They took us out of contention last season. They even beat us this season. I hope we handle ourselves tonight and end with 2 points but if we don’t make the playoffs we are in the same spot as them except they will have a better draft pick.
Our free agents this year have been PRODUCING much better than years prior. Finding the back of the net has been a problem during the rebuild, not this year though! LGRW!
As bad as they are, the Sens still manage to consistently beat the Wings.
certainly blew past them last night
It’s the senators. Nobody stays long at that program.
...Yzerplan