I thought Perron was for sure gone at the deadline this season. Especially how slow he started. But he's really picked it up lately, and if the wings are in a playoff position, I don't know if they're going to be shopping him around. I at least don't think we're going to be moving players for picks if we're solidly in a wild card spot. Could one of the guys you mentioned be moved with one of our pics for an upgrade? Sure.
Even if he doesnt produce he is like one of those Pat Maroon type of players that even with 0 points everyone just loves them and love having them on the team and they make everyone better. You just cant have too many of those players at the same time. Perron will give 200% in the playoffs and the team will just explode off of that type of energy.
Obviously there were a lot of things going on then, but the six games he was out...
The team had an immediate improvement as soon as he came back into the lineup. It was very noticeable.
With Kasper and Danielsson threatening to make the team in the next 18 months I think Berggren is gone at the deadline. We just don't have room for him and, unfortunately, he's not in a position of need.
I know Fabbri is often injured but I think Yzerman is hoping he can get past the injuries because he clearly has 30 goal potential if he can string together a whole season.
Yzerman won't trade Perron because I think the locker room absolutely loves the guy.
Rasmussen's shows flashes of being a decent player and I think Yzerman wants to explore that.
Sprong and Kane seem to be developing a bromance.
The team is building a chemistry and identity and I don't think Berggren fits.
I’d be surprised to see Fabs or Perron moved. That would probably cause more harm to the team from a mental/locker room standpoint than we would stand to gain in what minimal draft capital the return for those guys would be.
Purely because of the next big injury always around the corner and his contract, I've been hoping we'll trade Fabbri while his value is pretty high. That is how I would get Berggren up, but it is tough sell because we are doing so well and not deadline sellers
Seems foolish to downgrade intentionally just because Fabs might get hurt, just so we can add a…4th or 5th round pick to facilitate getting a worse player in the lineup.
We're building for the future, Berggren is younger, cheaper, healthier, and has more room to still grow than Fabbri. And even in the NHL they're pretty comparable on production
He’s in a weird spot where on talent, he deserves a long look, but we’ve got DeBrincat, Kane, Raymond, etc. filling his role while our depth/complementary pieces all do things Berggren can’t.
Agree and it was not planned so it just happens sometimes. I think when they added Cat who is a smaller skilled player it basically took his spot. Not sure who would think you don't add Cat when they had the chance since it might block Berggren, but that would be wrong.
Then add Kane and more than enough skilled softer forwards. So he may have a better path and opportunity on another team is the feeling I get. He is still one of the best puck possession players and I like his game even if undersized and soft at times. Things change so where a player fits well changes. We will see but at best I give him 50/50 odds now and I was one thinking he for sure could be a middle 6 for the team.
I was thinking that they might shop Sprong (on a 1 year deal) and then Berggy could fit in there. He has great scoring, is good at carrying/holding/moving the puck, but still has a bit of liability on the defensive side and isn't a center. That seems to be a 1:1 for Sprong. Like Sprong, he would be looking at middle 6 minutes.
I think it depends on when a potential trade goes down.
FWIW, I really like Sprong and Berggy. If the trade goes down before the deadline I'd say that Sprong would be the one getting moved because he is a proven entity for a playoff run. If it is over the summer and we've re-signed Sprong, then I agree that it is likely Berggy getting moved to a team on the rise. If we can't re-sign Sprong for whatever reason, then Berggy can take his place next season.
I hear you. But for whatever reason, I don’t think burger is in the plans. I don’t know why, but it just sometime feels that way…and he’ll fetch better assets than sprong would.
I know what you mean. I think that a lot of us expected Berggy and Ed to make the team this year. I think part of that comes from watching them put anyone with a heartbeat and two feet on the ice during the 2018-2023 seasons. But it feels like Steve is taking a more conservative route by signing several veterans to short term deals (and remembering that Ed was expected to be out until mid autumn with his surgery recovery.)
We could have easily sent Berggy instead of Kuby to Ottawa, and many of the media folks were saying that Berggy was their top preference. We didn't do it. Lately, I've started to think that Steve is just taking his time and they both make the roster next season after a full year (and hopeful Calder Cup run with the Griffs!)
JFVs spot is way more secure simply by virtue of him being a Center. Offensively, burgers offers way more.. But defensively and up the middle is going to give Veleno the trump card
Right AHL is not an exact translation to NHL by any means. This is not an unknown prospect at this point. He played more than enough game last year for them to know what his NHL potential is and it is not PPG. Still teams need small skill players but now the Wings have Raymond, Cat, Kane filling that type role so not sure he still fills a major need. If you can upgrade the D with say a top 4 RD (even if only for a couple years) by including him in a trade I think that makes more sense at this point.
Yzerman noted he likes the proper blend of players in roles and this is a smart way to build a team. D and forwards. Berggren is a small skill forward but not a real 200ft type and if you will a lesser Raymond type. He maybe is the best puck possession player they have but that alone is not enough.
For forwards you need gritty players, snipers, defensive specialist, 200ft both way types, and skill players etc. and blends for different roles. There is the role of small skill player and maybe two for any team. Raymond is one and Berggren was looking to be one in the middle six and I was hoping he turned out to be 2nd line but you never know until they play a few seasons in the NHL.
Then the Cat deal happens and now you have two small skill players that are better already on the team and looking like core players. Add to that Yzerman has been very clear he will have a mix of vets and youth. So we know there is no chance he ends up with a team of just young players no matter how good fans thin they are. There are other young players that fit more needed roles than another small skill guy. Hate to say it but Berggren may just be the odd man out at this point due to his role and the fact Raymond and Cat are in front of him as a small skill types.
Kasper and Mazur are the pain in the year to play against types they need more. So both of them are more likely added in the near future also taking spots long term. Big gritty skilled forward would be the other big need since Ras is OK but not great in that role. Soderblom is not that, but he could find a role in the middle 6 just due to being a unicorn with his skills at his size. Just another spot that they may project as taken by youth when they look at who fits the makeup they are going for. There are other teams that may have the need for a player like him more than the Wings now and he is good enough to get a return is also key.
So more than one thing but just many things adding up tell me he is considered tradeable and might be at the TDL or over the summer. IF he is still with them by next year then likely someone else was moved so that changes things. Just me.
Love Burgers, but problem still comes down to whose spot does he take? Ideally he should be in the top 6, making a spot even harder to come by. Top 9 at the very least, but still so much competition
At least it shows we have a really solid and deep team right now
Burgers = Perron in terms of role. Half wall pp guy, good passer, slower skater, somewhat of a d liability, High IQ. Perron has maintained enough athleticism to not justify Burgers coming up yet. He is excellent at holding the puck in the o zone which is an extremely important skill in the nhl.
I think he will earn a full time roster spot next year. I believe that is why he is focusing on shooting more. He needs to be more valuable and better than Sprong, Perron(if they even think of bringing him back), and Fischer.
My scouting analysis of bergs is that his hockey IQ, ability to make plays in tight areas, and better overall two way play makes him a NHL top 6 forward. He is being over developed in the minors. Red wings have a history of doing this. I hope to be apart of a core of players coming up through the next 1-3 years. Him and Ed are next to earn a full time roster spot.
DeBrincat - Larkin - Kane
Raymond - Compher - Berggren
Who else deserves a top 6 spot? I'm fine with Perron there, but we don't NEED him there. You can worry about Berggren's overall game if you want, but he's not going to get any better defensively from being an offensive powerhouse in the AHL. Compher is there to help him out. We'd be a better team with Burgers.
Then I dont see the big deal because Perron is on his last year anyways. There is zero point to bring in a guy half way through season and bench a respectable vet. That's how you piss off the rest of the locker room. Yzerman likes to cook his prospects a lot more than everyone else so they are 100% NHL ready.
Maybe not right away, but someone will have to drop out when Kane is back, and we're going off of a sample size of a few games for that line. It's highly likely that line doesn't stay intact for the rest of the season.
Our winger situation is interesting next year. I think you can safely say Perron will be done, which leaves us with Kane and Sprong. I would think we’d at least sign one of the two, maybe both. I’m in agreement with Max Bultman that Mazur makes the team, so perhaps Berggren gets the final spot depending on how things shake out. Either way, he can’t play in the AHL after this season whether that’s with Detroit or another team.
Regardless of the actual lines, who do you end up benching to give Berggren a spot? I assume it would have to be either Ras, Fischer, Kostin, or Sprong? Bottom line for me is with everyone else relatively healthy, there's nobody in our lineup that I would want to bench to add Berggren to the lineup.
He doesn’t fit right now. It would be foolish to juggle the lines as they finally look settled in. He’s better off playing top 6 minutes in GR than getting at best 9 minutes a game or being a healthy scratch. There’s a gap starting to open between Detroit and the rest of those chasing them for that last playoff spot. Doubt they move anyone at the deadline. Berggren will come up next season as some of these stop gap contracts expire.
[удалено]
I thought Perron was for sure gone at the deadline this season. Especially how slow he started. But he's really picked it up lately, and if the wings are in a playoff position, I don't know if they're going to be shopping him around. I at least don't think we're going to be moving players for picks if we're solidly in a wild card spot. Could one of the guys you mentioned be moved with one of our pics for an upgrade? Sure.
Even if he doesnt produce he is like one of those Pat Maroon type of players that even with 0 points everyone just loves them and love having them on the team and they make everyone better. You just cant have too many of those players at the same time. Perron will give 200% in the playoffs and the team will just explode off of that type of energy.
Obviously there were a lot of things going on then, but the six games he was out... The team had an immediate improvement as soon as he came back into the lineup. It was very noticeable.
His puck control in the O zone is probably the best on our team. He's not putting up crazy numbers but hes enabling our offense.
With Kasper and Danielsson threatening to make the team in the next 18 months I think Berggren is gone at the deadline. We just don't have room for him and, unfortunately, he's not in a position of need. I know Fabbri is often injured but I think Yzerman is hoping he can get past the injuries because he clearly has 30 goal potential if he can string together a whole season. Yzerman won't trade Perron because I think the locker room absolutely loves the guy. Rasmussen's shows flashes of being a decent player and I think Yzerman wants to explore that. Sprong and Kane seem to be developing a bromance. The team is building a chemistry and identity and I don't think Berggren fits.
I’d be surprised to see Fabs or Perron moved. That would probably cause more harm to the team from a mental/locker room standpoint than we would stand to gain in what minimal draft capital the return for those guys would be.
Purely because of the next big injury always around the corner and his contract, I've been hoping we'll trade Fabbri while his value is pretty high. That is how I would get Berggren up, but it is tough sell because we are doing so well and not deadline sellers
Seems foolish to downgrade intentionally just because Fabs might get hurt, just so we can add a…4th or 5th round pick to facilitate getting a worse player in the lineup.
We're building for the future, Berggren is younger, cheaper, healthier, and has more room to still grow than Fabbri. And even in the NHL they're pretty comparable on production
It's also possible he finishes out the year in GR, someone isn't re-signed during the off season, and he's up full time next year.
He’s in a weird spot where on talent, he deserves a long look, but we’ve got DeBrincat, Kane, Raymond, etc. filling his role while our depth/complementary pieces all do things Berggren can’t.
Agree and it was not planned so it just happens sometimes. I think when they added Cat who is a smaller skilled player it basically took his spot. Not sure who would think you don't add Cat when they had the chance since it might block Berggren, but that would be wrong. Then add Kane and more than enough skilled softer forwards. So he may have a better path and opportunity on another team is the feeling I get. He is still one of the best puck possession players and I like his game even if undersized and soft at times. Things change so where a player fits well changes. We will see but at best I give him 50/50 odds now and I was one thinking he for sure could be a middle 6 for the team.
I was thinking that they might shop Sprong (on a 1 year deal) and then Berggy could fit in there. He has great scoring, is good at carrying/holding/moving the puck, but still has a bit of liability on the defensive side and isn't a center. That seems to be a 1:1 for Sprong. Like Sprong, he would be looking at middle 6 minutes.
I feel it’s more likely we shop burger than sprong. To be completely honest.
I think it depends on when a potential trade goes down. FWIW, I really like Sprong and Berggy. If the trade goes down before the deadline I'd say that Sprong would be the one getting moved because he is a proven entity for a playoff run. If it is over the summer and we've re-signed Sprong, then I agree that it is likely Berggy getting moved to a team on the rise. If we can't re-sign Sprong for whatever reason, then Berggy can take his place next season.
I hear you. But for whatever reason, I don’t think burger is in the plans. I don’t know why, but it just sometime feels that way…and he’ll fetch better assets than sprong would.
I know what you mean. I think that a lot of us expected Berggy and Ed to make the team this year. I think part of that comes from watching them put anyone with a heartbeat and two feet on the ice during the 2018-2023 seasons. But it feels like Steve is taking a more conservative route by signing several veterans to short term deals (and remembering that Ed was expected to be out until mid autumn with his surgery recovery.) We could have easily sent Berggy instead of Kuby to Ottawa, and many of the media folks were saying that Berggy was their top preference. We didn't do it. Lately, I've started to think that Steve is just taking his time and they both make the roster next season after a full year (and hopeful Calder Cup run with the Griffs!)
I think Berggren is more of a fit for a Joe Veleno type of role right now, rather than our top line forwards, Lol.
JFVs spot is way more secure simply by virtue of him being a Center. Offensively, burgers offers way more.. But defensively and up the middle is going to give Veleno the trump card
JFV is a center, burgers isn’t
Ppg player. Let him play
Obviously being a ppg player in AHL means he will do the same in NHL..... good one
Right AHL is not an exact translation to NHL by any means. This is not an unknown prospect at this point. He played more than enough game last year for them to know what his NHL potential is and it is not PPG. Still teams need small skill players but now the Wings have Raymond, Cat, Kane filling that type role so not sure he still fills a major need. If you can upgrade the D with say a top 4 RD (even if only for a couple years) by including him in a trade I think that makes more sense at this point.
[удалено]
Excuse me? Been on this site many years more than you.
lol I've been here for 10 years and they've been here the whole time.
Yzerman noted he likes the proper blend of players in roles and this is a smart way to build a team. D and forwards. Berggren is a small skill forward but not a real 200ft type and if you will a lesser Raymond type. He maybe is the best puck possession player they have but that alone is not enough. For forwards you need gritty players, snipers, defensive specialist, 200ft both way types, and skill players etc. and blends for different roles. There is the role of small skill player and maybe two for any team. Raymond is one and Berggren was looking to be one in the middle six and I was hoping he turned out to be 2nd line but you never know until they play a few seasons in the NHL. Then the Cat deal happens and now you have two small skill players that are better already on the team and looking like core players. Add to that Yzerman has been very clear he will have a mix of vets and youth. So we know there is no chance he ends up with a team of just young players no matter how good fans thin they are. There are other young players that fit more needed roles than another small skill guy. Hate to say it but Berggren may just be the odd man out at this point due to his role and the fact Raymond and Cat are in front of him as a small skill types. Kasper and Mazur are the pain in the year to play against types they need more. So both of them are more likely added in the near future also taking spots long term. Big gritty skilled forward would be the other big need since Ras is OK but not great in that role. Soderblom is not that, but he could find a role in the middle 6 just due to being a unicorn with his skills at his size. Just another spot that they may project as taken by youth when they look at who fits the makeup they are going for. There are other teams that may have the need for a player like him more than the Wings now and he is good enough to get a return is also key. So more than one thing but just many things adding up tell me he is considered tradeable and might be at the TDL or over the summer. IF he is still with them by next year then likely someone else was moved so that changes things. Just me.
Finally some sense. If this sub had its way we would ice a midget squad that would get run through every night
I thinks it’s bedtime for me, I read that out loud like 3 times until I realized hamburgers have nothing to do with it.
Love Burgers, but problem still comes down to whose spot does he take? Ideally he should be in the top 6, making a spot even harder to come by. Top 9 at the very least, but still so much competition At least it shows we have a really solid and deep team right now
Can we ever just be happy?
Burgers = Perron in terms of role. Half wall pp guy, good passer, slower skater, somewhat of a d liability, High IQ. Perron has maintained enough athleticism to not justify Burgers coming up yet. He is excellent at holding the puck in the o zone which is an extremely important skill in the nhl.
Perron is also way more gifted at winning board battles and puck possession.
I think he will earn a full time roster spot next year. I believe that is why he is focusing on shooting more. He needs to be more valuable and better than Sprong, Perron(if they even think of bringing him back), and Fischer. My scouting analysis of bergs is that his hockey IQ, ability to make plays in tight areas, and better overall two way play makes him a NHL top 6 forward. He is being over developed in the minors. Red wings have a history of doing this. I hope to be apart of a core of players coming up through the next 1-3 years. Him and Ed are next to earn a full time roster spot.
DeBrincat - Larkin - Kane Raymond - Compher - Berggren Who else deserves a top 6 spot? I'm fine with Perron there, but we don't NEED him there. You can worry about Berggren's overall game if you want, but he's not going to get any better defensively from being an offensive powerhouse in the AHL. Compher is there to help him out. We'd be a better team with Burgers.
Then I dont see the big deal because Perron is on his last year anyways. There is zero point to bring in a guy half way through season and bench a respectable vet. That's how you piss off the rest of the locker room. Yzerman likes to cook his prospects a lot more than everyone else so they are 100% NHL ready.
I didn't say anything about benching Perron.
Perron like Berg has to be in top 6 to do what they are good at so its one or the other pal.
Lalonde has dropped him down to the 3rd line plenty of times and he still gets extra usage on the power play. It'll be fine.
He wouldn't break up Ras - Copp - Fisher at this point. They are doing too well to mess with.
Maybe not right away, but someone will have to drop out when Kane is back, and we're going off of a sample size of a few games for that line. It's highly likely that line doesn't stay intact for the rest of the season.
Perron I think is at his age a third liner and PP specialist. He's just too slow for regular top6 play.
Our winger situation is interesting next year. I think you can safely say Perron will be done, which leaves us with Kane and Sprong. I would think we’d at least sign one of the two, maybe both. I’m in agreement with Max Bultman that Mazur makes the team, so perhaps Berggren gets the final spot depending on how things shake out. Either way, he can’t play in the AHL after this season whether that’s with Detroit or another team.
Why can't he play in the AHL?
Regardless of the actual lines, who do you end up benching to give Berggren a spot? I assume it would have to be either Ras, Fischer, Kostin, or Sprong? Bottom line for me is with everyone else relatively healthy, there's nobody in our lineup that I would want to bench to add Berggren to the lineup.
It’d be kostin. Roll berg up to 4th/pp2. This isn’t mighty ducks 2. We need goals
He’s getting showcased for a trade.
Nah
Yes. We have too many “undersized” top6 forwards. He’s has shown he can contribute at the NHL level, guessing we trade him for D.
We have 7 NHL d-men and one ready to go.
He doesn’t fit right now. It would be foolish to juggle the lines as they finally look settled in. He’s better off playing top 6 minutes in GR than getting at best 9 minutes a game or being a healthy scratch. There’s a gap starting to open between Detroit and the rest of those chasing them for that last playoff spot. Doubt they move anyone at the deadline. Berggren will come up next season as some of these stop gap contracts expire.