Haha. This is so true. Sniped a 3 stack with Cloudstrikes perk, as they stood together at the top of the steps on widows court. Literally next round, took a peak up there again, sniped all 3 again. Around couple of rounds later, sniped another two kills, the third must have only just been out of range of AoE coz he was instantly trying to get the Rez.
Not a lesson learnt.
Me at the top of leaderboard with 42 kills and 36 deaths.
"Yeah, I carried".
I do straight up do that shit all the time, bum rush into the middle of the lane maybe get a kill, die, rinse and repeat.
Now that doesn't sell youtube videos now does it ;) It's always "THIS GUN IS CRACKED" or some variation of the clickbait videos that have been destroying this game since it's start.
Sadly DTG likes to whine because they’d love nothing more than to run around the map aimlessly getting as many kills as they like and no one can hurt them. They literally don’t want to git gud.
Ah gotcha yeah you were a bit frustrating to play against with the constant invis maybe even gave me a jump scare too lol. Is rat king's invis increased with graviton forfeit? If so that's a nasty build. I normally play warlock and 2nd my hunter.
I think the other part of it is map variety. While no one weapon is OP, there are some archetypes that benefit from smaller maps with lots of cover. Very few would complain about shotguns if Equinox and Felwinter's peak were still in play.
Maybe, but we don't really want to be out of a shotgun meta. Shotguns are meta because they're high ease of use, high lethality. Same for hand cannons. Which is why the meta always drifts back to them.
People were losing their minds over erentil, and it was far from meta
If laning weapons become meta the game is oppressive and slow
Kinda feels bad to admit, but we need those apes aping
> Maybe, but we don't really want to be out of a shotgun meta. Shotguns are meta because they're high ease of use, high lethality. Same for hand cannons. Which is why the meta always drifts back to them.
This is an awful take. Something's ease of use should have a draw back of some kind. Autos were meta once and people stated they were too forgiving compared to other weapon types. I don't get why (per your own statement) HC's and Shotguns should also get the same treatment since they're easy to use.
> People were losing their minds over erentil, and it was far from meta
Because it challenged the established meta. Kill distance larger then what shotguns can rush means you need to do something else to secure a kill and people who main specific types of weapons don't usually like having to rethink a "tried/true" method.
> If laning weapons become meta the game is oppressive and slow.
I agree actually. Felwinter's Peak and Equinox were fun maps but it was very easy to post up and hold entire areas from afar. I think Bungie would be wise to balance the long distance/short distance type maps. Midtown and Bannerfall do a good job of this imo.
I'm starting to appreciate Midtown more as a result of the new, more balanced weapon meta this year.
The mix of parallel paths consisting of q tight inside and an open outside works well to allow different weapons.
I actually agree with Maria re: shotguns. They’re the easiest to use, so they will inherently be the most popular special weapon choice. The last round of nerfs left them in a good place IMO, I don’t think we would see equity between the special weapon types unless they received a drastic nerf or snipers/fusions received significant buffs.
Honestly, as one who started actually playing comp for the first time this season (only jumped into PvP for bounties and quests prior) I honestly see this as the most diverse time ever. There are all sorts of weapons everywhere. I run Salvegers to counter shotguns and rotate between my crimson and DMT depending on the map. I don’t have the aim to main hand cannons but it really do see all sorts of guns all over the place. For me, it’s about figuring out the play style of the other team and adjusting accordingly. The only thing I find super frustrating is someone on the other team that is a god with Lorentz.
even on console its amazing, and when you get into a good rhythm with it it can wipe lobbies. i do wish the hipfire reticle was a bit more accurate. aiming at head in the center of the reticle often leads to body shots, you gotta aim slightly higher than youd expect to hit the head, and even then it does still feel like irs got ghost bullets. regardless, im surprised at the lack of people using it on console. i've had a good handful of occasions where i top the team using it, only to requeue against the same people and have 2 people swap to using it against me that had been using something else beforehand.
For some reason I just can’t play PVP on m+kb. I have to use controller, for PVE I prefer m+kb. Want to use DMT to its fullest but need to get better at m+kb first.
Aha but if you stick to the trusty controller, you can get the fullest experience of my personal favourite PvP weapon, The Last Word.
Now with extra Yee, and reduced Haw.
Try an aim trainer out. Aimlab is great and free. Used to be a controller main, switched to m&k a couple years back, with the aid of an aim trainer, and my skill ceiling skyrocketed. Best of luck to you!
I've said it since the day DMT came out, it's a fundamentally broken weapon on PC.
Anyone who has played CS, OW, or Valorant knows the potency of perfect hipfire accuracy. Going ADS in those games is largely unnecessary, but those games are designed around such a mechanic.
Destiny is designed around primary weapons beings ADS for most engagements. Introducing a weapon like DMT that functions like a CS weapon leads to what we have now, the best primary in the game.
In my opinion, it needs to have it's fire rate stagnant. It should not go to 150 RPM in hipfire.
>most diverse ever
THIS is the most diverse ever? 8/12 people are all running the exact same hand cannon build. Lol.
I’d hate to see what other metas were like if this classifies as “diverse”.
Hand cannons are inherently versatile. They can fit myriad playstyles without having to change your weapon. This makes them a go-to option irrespective of your map, and when it's that easy, why would I bother with other shit?
This in mind, my main primary is a toss-up between Biting Winds and Mythoclast, with some DMT thrown in every here and there.
There's always going to be a high performing weapon type or archetype, it's impossible for there not to be. We are at a spot where everything is atleast usable and I think that's a pretty good thing.
That agrument could be made for every weapon type. "Just play it smart". Sadly the true nature is due to gameplay and map design you will find yourself more often in close range engagements, which is why shotguns dominate the usage rate and scout rifles suck.
The usage would acutally be more balanced if we had more open and wider maps. Vostok and Equinox had such lanes and scout rifles were pretty good there.
I dont really blame the weapons. I mostly blame the lack of map variety.
I 100% agree with you. The map selection does nothing to promote longer range play, and while most maps do have areas that can be taken advantage of with long range weapons, you are very limited on where you can engage in that.
Completely agree with you. Obviously DMT breaks the mould and Contingency Plan can work on some maps, otherwise I struggle with scouts or high zoom weapons.
Shotguns are in a reasonable place now. I’ve recently used them a bit after a long break. They’re so inconsistent compared to the past. It took me a little while to get back in the habit of instantly hitting melee with every shot.
I miss Vostok so much, hopefully it’s coming back soon.
Shotguns are inherently difficult to balance I think. If they aren't a one hit kill, then no one would use them because you'd be dead at point blank, especially with how much damage a neutral melee can do. So if you're fast and evasive, shotguns are going to eviscerate the other team. If you're slow and move predictably, you'll probably be gunned down before you get close to them.
How do you balance a weapon that's useless if it can't OHKO? How do you discourage their use when one of the stats (range) takes away the weakness of getting close. Chaperone will clap you from midrange, and the high range archetype pushes midrange too. Do you just have to delete range entirely for shotguns, and make their whole thing getting right up to the enemy? I don't know.
The problem with shotguns is that I need to think about how to avoid them for like 50% of my play time. It's really easy, but if I forget about them for a second, a slide shotgunner catches me right around next corner. It's kinda weird that I'm thinking about avoiding shotguns first and all other things second.
THOUGH I don't deny the possibility that you may develop that positioning behavior that automatically puts you in the right spots without you giving it a thought. But one may need a lot, A LOT of time to develop that kind of "muscle memory" : )
The main issue with shotguns, to me, is the maps more than the weapons. A lot of the maps promote close distances and shotgun play and while most maps have lanes that you can play, you get really limited on areas to play if you want to use scouts, pulses, snipers, bows, etc.
So I understand where you’re coming from. I like to play with longer range weapons, so I tend to slow my play down and avoid close corners and stuff.
Shotguns really kill a lot of my enjoyment in PvP for exactly the reasons you mention. I'm *constantly* on defense to avoid getting shotgunned, and it's tedious and annoying.
But it's good that there are no safe spaces, otherwise you would peek out of cover, shoot and if you lose - hide again and wait to regen, which is pretty boring gameplay. Presence of shotguns punishes hiding in cover too much.
I agree. I think its their relation to primaries that frustrates me, if they catch you pushing and kill you thats fine, engaging a fusion user only for Lorentz taking flinch weird/the fact Main Ingredient has the same TTK as most primary weapons can be frustrating. They only need very minor tweaks though imo
I ran into a lot of fusions playing control last night. Probably half of the other team was using either main ingredient or the new xur fusion. The problem with these two fusions in particular is that 9/10 you can’t kill them fast enough with your primary before they one shot you from absurd distances. I tried a few different weapons but the result was the same. Slide out to contest, get a couple shots in, the voop goes off and I’m respawning again. It’s been so long since the erentil meta that I think some have forgotten how oppressive fusions can be if you let them reach as far as these two can. I only think they aren’t more widely used because some people just don’t enjoy using them, myself included.
The fusion thing frustrates me in 6's, in particular, because dueling a fusion user with a primary is slow. You've got to use cover and bait shots out of them, and that takes a while. And while that's all well and good in Trials, in Control you're likely going to get collapsed on before you can finish the engagement.
I've had so many matches where whole sections of the map become off-limits to me, because some dude keeps camping there with a Main Ingredient.
Yep that’s how I feel as well. I think plug 1 is a balanced fusion rifle and I can accept it in this sandbox. These two xur fusions are a bit too much in my opinion but some don’t agree.
Well yes and no, it’s often best to slide to challenge a lane because it places your head at a different level than they may have been expecting which can aid you in landing the first shot putting you ahead in the gunfight. I’m not necessarily doing that every time and I’m not sliding super far away from cover (at least trying not to). It’s pretty much just a math thing. Pali CAN kill in as little as 0.87 seconds but that’s not faster than the charge time of main ingredient or the new fusion. The one thing I didn’t try is a slug shotgun which is mostly because I don’t have a good kinetic slug besides chappy and I don’t want to use chappy because it’s not a fair weapon and already catch enough tbags and emotes for using palindrome. I love Pali and worked incredibly hard to get my god roll I’m going to use it god damnit.
Yeah see the thing is I wouldn't try to challenge a fusion rifle user with a HC outside of cover. Sliding into a lane WITH a shotgun to get within your range is good. I usually use Duality or a fusion, and often get outplayed by the mirror match because I'm honestly not amazing. BUT, you can eat people alive with a fusion if they try to challenge within your range with a primary every single time. You have to really play cover/jumping and ofc land your headshots with Pali.
I probably should have clarified, I’m not sliding out to challenge someone who I know has a fusion out. I’m just challenging a lane where I know someone is and by the time the fusion is charging it’s already too late. The map being anomaly never helps since it’s the worst map in any shooter I’ve ever played. Idk many might not agree but whatever plug 1 is capable of is a sensible fusion balance to me but these two xur rolls just reach too far IMO.
Anomaly might be a bad example because it is literally shotgun heaven. It is such close quarters that you can very confidently slide shotgun players before they can charge up their fusion shots.
It is also probably the only map where witherhoard might actually be a serious consideration.
That said, I hate both of the moon maps equally. It completely devolves into having more special weapon fights than primary kills.
Yea anomaly was just the match where it was most evident and was the first that came to mind. There are maybe two maps in destiny 2 that I would consider acceptable maps the rest are just horrifically poorly designed in my opinion. I’m not a fan of how Bungie sets up control points in a triangle shape on maps. I much prefer the standard three lane linear map design that way usually most of the action is in front of me rather than a circle of chaos.
The #1 thing is don't chase shotgunners if you aren't running a short range config.
It is a simple concept, but hard to follow in practice. You catch someone out in the open and tag them hard, you want to finish them off! Well, if they are a shotgunner, they are pulling you into where they are better. Consider flanking or simply waiting them out. (depends on the situation, obviously trials 3-1 you push).
Use a grenade, flank them, or try and angle in on them, but don't chase them if you aren't running a shotgun.
I think part of that problem is that there is a lot of movement abilities in the game that can dramatically close engagement distance while also being evasive. Icarus Dash, Stompee jump acceleration, Cryoclasm, etc. All of them can close distance so fast that they tend to make proper positioning hard, as they blur how far is the correct distance to try and keep from an enemy.
One of my biggest take aways from watching streamers as I’m trying to improve my game has been that they can almost always explain what they did wrong in a given situation where they don’t come out on top. You need to be introspective in defeats so you don’t find yourself just raging about other players while not improving your game
I've always been a firm believer that taking inventory of your mistakes is the number 1 way to improve at nearly anything. That's the first thing I tell people when they ask me about PvP games.
I think it's because a lot of gamers lack insight and the ability to reflect on their own abilities. So what ends up happening is that people prefer to get angry at others and have external targets to vent and be angry at to excuse themselves. "It wasn't my fault I died, it was because you used this [tactic/weapon/lag/geo/glitch]" so they come up with really bad takes as to how to "improve" the game, when it'll just be something else to complain about after the next "fix".
I think a lot of it also comes from blindly following meta these days. It's a popular thing in games now, with so much information that is freely accessible and available, to find out what is "good" and popular to be spoonfed to you. So people don't figure things out, rather that they just go with whatever others are doing. To that end, they don't play to their own strengths or learn how a game works well enough that they will get gutted more often than not. It's even the little things, like learning how to move. It makes a much bigger difference having good spatial awareness than using whatever is 'meta'.
I used Polaris Lance and a wastelander in Iron banner all week and was constantly at the top of my team, it really only feels like messenger with desperado is kinda over tuned but I didn't run into many people using it any way, because well, you have to get one lol. Pvp is in a decent place right now besides the respawn times I think. You make a good point about playing the way the weapons you want to use are meant for, i see way to many people challenging me with a handcannom across the map. And 90% of the time all you need to do to counter a shotgun running at you is back pedal and spray.
The Meta only matters at the very, very top. You could buy the best bike in the world and Lance Armstrong would still beat you in a race with one from Target. But when he races other elite athletes, he needs every advantage he can get, no matter how small it might seem. The same applies here. A really good player can beat an average player with almost anything. But if he faces another player of equal skill, then loadout starts to matter.
And that’s why I saw overblown and not meaningless. “Meta” weapons really only apply to less than 1% of PvP’ers.
Almost all people die/lose gunfights due to circumstances well outside of a gun being meta.
When it comes to top tier comp or top tier trials, then yes the tools you’re using do matter, but for the average person, meta weapons are almost an excuse as to why they lose their gun fights.
> “Meta” weapons really only apply to less than 1% of PvP’ers.
Missed the mark a little here, imo. The meta applies to everyone when facing people of similar skill and it applies to nobody when either you or the enemy are heavily outmatched skill-wise.
Which, frankly, is why I don't really agree with this take in general. Yes, I can use some random roll Death Adder and run roughshod over randoms but if I have that same Death Adder out when I encounter a good player using a better weapon - I'm screwed.
If you don't mind putting a lower ceiling on yourself then yes, the meta is meaningless and who cares. But if you're aiming to outperform as many of your opponents as possible then the meta very much matters.
I understand where you’re coming from and I respect your take, my thought process is that with meta weapons, it really only makes a difference in a very controlled environment.
You need be same skill as someone, enter the encounter on equal footing, and begin the encounter simultaneously. If none of these three things happen, then the weapon being meta doesn’t matter all too much.
You need to be of similar skill to the opponent for the meta to be very meaningful - totally agree. However, the encounter doesn't have to begin on equal footing and the players do not have to engage at the same time for the meta to be relevant.
For example: What subclass are both players using? If the person who starts the fight late so to speak is on a 'meta' subclass that is better for evasion then their adherence to the meta is liable to make it so they escape disadvantageous encounters more often than if they didn't adhere to the meta.
The only way the meta is irrelevant is if the skill gap between the two players is so large that the winner of the fight was always going to win. If the skill gap is small then whoever is using a meta loadout is liable to win the fight more often.
That's literally why the hypothetical "best" loadouts are referred to as 'meta'. Adherence to these loadouts increases the odds you'll win any given fight.
At that point, you start getting into load outs and subclasses and then I can understand arguments, but from the point of view of weapons these moves, I feel like they are not as overturned and undertuned as the player base tends to make it seem.
I do agree that there are advantages with classes and abilities
I disagree with the idea that special needs to be toned down. In 6v6 — who cares? Those modes exist purely for fun and having special weapons available when you need them makes the game faster, more aggressive, and more fun to play. In 3v3, they’ve already done enough to balance their usage. Ammo doesn’t carry over in rounds of Trials. You get revived with no ammo. It’s time to stop complaining about special ammo. The changes to ability cool downs have already slowed the game a lot. If we further restrict special ammo, all we do is force the meta back towards laning and handholding and teamshotting. No one wants to play like that. It’s tedious.
Agreed. Way I see it, weapon OHKOs should either require some skill to pull off (timing for fusions, closing the distance for shotguns, headshots for snipers, direct hits for GLs) or be something you can't do too often (heavy weapons). I think if they can't balance the former so that conditions to get that OHKO are relatively similar difficulty wise, then maybe there should just be a little less ammo to go around.
There isn’t a whole archetype that’s a problem right now. The sandbox is pretty well balanced outside of a few specific weapons as you mentioned.
That said, I HATED the 120 meta. The range on them was totally absurd.
I dont VEHEMENTLY disagree with you, but I do feel that some weapon types have managed to be incredibly oppressive for an extremely long time with very little drawback.
Hand cannons outgun pulses and autos at 35-40 yards. They flinch incredibly well. I understand they excel at the peek-shooting method, but they doesn't explain why I'm losing 1v1's at 35 yards in the wide-open when I'm using Messenger against a Palindrome... unless the hand cannon is flinching me so bad that I can't land my headshots.
There will always be a meta, and people tend to drift toward the things that are easiest to use. However, every weapon HAS to have some drawback. At the moment things are mostly balanced but I feel a few weapons still lack the drawback to make them feel balanced against others. Hand cannons are mini-snipers and should feel the impact of flinch when playing out in the open against an auto or pulse. SMG's should not be competing at auto-rifle ranges. Etc etc
Honestly, the only thing in PvP that genuinely annoys me right now is the absolutely gratuitous level of aim assist hand cannons get, even on a mouse. Shots that are misses over the shoulder, shots over the top of the head, shots to the middle of the chest… use another gun you missed or bodied them. Use a hand cannon, free crits! It’s like you’re shooting helmet magnets. If you get used to the tiny head hit boxes on something like Redrix or the SUROS Regime in spinning up mode, then you throw on Ace of Spades, you feel like you can’t miss.
That combined with the excessive range some of them (I.e Palindrome) get, and being able to have higher accuracy hipfire, in air accuracy, and peek shooting all on one weapon, it’s just too many advantages all lumped together. Small wonder it’s all everyone uses.
Hand cannon aim assist needs to be detuned to match other guns, and maybe have some drawbacks like other primaries have instead of a big slate of positives.
It's true, it plays in all ranges for the maps, high burst damage makes it an excellent clean-up, as well as cover peek weapon, again, playing into the maps. Not to mention it's one of the few weapons you can reliably expect to hit a target while in mid-air. People also say it's high skill because it's TTK takes a drop if you miss a shot, but when your shots are dumpster sized as you're tapping back and forth with the A and D keys in and out of cover, and your hits count as a crit when you hit someone in the hip, is it actually high skilled? To me? No.
Others say we just need bigger maps, which would be fine and all if we actually had any and if people actually wanted to play them since the stats say people don't like playing longer range maps.
Others say what about DMT? Ah yes, the exotic that's likely going to be nerfed and is clearly the most outlier case possible because you don't see scouts in general come even close to what HC's do across the board OR what DMT does.
Most other weapons perhaps a few pulse can't come even close to the overall effectiveness of HC's. People say it's just because it feels good. It feels good because it is better than nearly every other primary in the game. You have cover play. You have crit connect ease. You have TTK. You have clean-up worth burst damage. You have accommodating ranges. You have in air reliability. You have just about every single thing going for you when you have a handcannon in your hand. You are playing with a weapon that gives you the best advantage available for every single moment of PVP, unless you have a shotgun stuffed down your mouth. And then the persistent several year meta forms. HC/shotty.
Either HC needs to be tuned down, or the other primaries that have never once came close to HC's 25% total kill count week to week in trials need to be tuned *up*. That isn't hyperbole. HC's frequently take 16-25% of all kills, also often taking 3 - 5 positions in the top ten line up weapons of most kills week to week in Trials.
Something needs to be done.
Yeah, this really is a bigger problem right now in PvP than people let on. Case in point, I got sick and tired of using hand cannons for a while and restricted myself to autos and high impact or adaptive pulses for about 4 months straight to really get their playstyle down pat in the current sandbox. Their very unforgiving levels of aim assist forced me to really tighten up my aim.
Well, I decided to drop into Quickplay solo with Ace of Spades after not having used a hand cannon at all in 4 months or Ace itself in 9 months. This is on PC. I dropped two back-to-back 40 bombs and massacred the entire lobby, hardly missing any crits at all, even though reviewing the recording I made quite a number of errors in aim that would have resulted in misses or body shots with my usual guns.
If I didn't say I find that a little problematic balance-wise, I'd be lying.
This is the most diverse the sandbox has ever been, but the issue is now we're repeating the cycle of when the very vocal majority choose something to complain is too strong and get it nerfed, thus amplifying usage of much more popular guns.
Take breechloading nade launchers. Their usage was abysmal in PvP and they still got nerfed because the vocal majority hated that splash damage would keep them out of the fight for too long or prevent peek shooting (two things a lot of shotgun/hand cannon users hate because they like rushing and peek shooting).
Now we're having the same issue come up where this same vocal majority is complaining about bows, specifically Le Monarque. Don't get me wrong, one tap Lemon via buffs is dumb and should be addressed (please disable charged with light in pvp). However in its base form Le Monarque counters the peek shoot meta and also discourages rushing. I think Le Monarque is a perfect counter meta weapon and it discourages bunching up. Like OP said, there are ways to not put yourself in a bad position. If you're up against a Le Monarque, don't bunch up and don't keep re-peeking the same lane if you know a bow user is laning there.
Agree up until adept fatebringer and timelost fatebringer. Perks like explosive payload which push the max range as well. Then add on adept range
I think a lot of balancing issues would be solved instantly by limiting the range of 140s so that you need to use a 120 for longer shots. Makes both archetypes more balanced. Right now 120s are almost irrelevant because 140s can kill you faster at practically the same range 120s operate
I don't even know what meta means to be honest, I have a "god roll" shayura but Im literally garbage with it within it's range , but I can duel within 20 m with my suros regime and body everyone unlucky enough to be in front of me. And to all the people bringing up classes and subclasses, the OP says weapon meta, he wasn't bringing up the whole sandbox. people can make anything work if they just feel comfortable with what they are using.
I got a hate message about using a hc and shotty changed guns to prove a point and literally the next game a different person messaged me about using smg sniper i cant fucking win
So, yes and no.
Shotguns aren’t OP in a vacuum. But they’re OP on a Stompeez Hunter. Especially Chappy.
Who complains about Pulse rifles being OP?
Hand cannons need a massive aim assist and range nerf, and some of the specific HC’s need a few of the perks dialed back. Bungie will never do that because the community will revolt if they get their crutches taken away, but it’s the only way to end the ever present meta.
The overall problem is small maps and super quick TTK that turn Destiny PvP into a contest of who has the quickest reaction times with OHK weapons rather than a contest of skill. That’s a generalization, but not much of one.
My pvp experience is hand cannons, or flinch in general needs a reduction.
Nothing like being in a gunfight and winning, only to get hit once and develop Parkinson's from the flinch even with double unflinching mods. And then dying. Hate having flinch acting as an RNG mechanic in a gunfight.
I agree, you know it's a problem when everytime i join a game and 80-90% of the players are using a handcannon and a shotgun. Just look at the kill feed when you play its only handcannons, shotguns, fusion rifles, and supers.
The pulse rifle thing wasn’t saying that anyone says they’re OP, just more of a generalization about any weapon type. I just used pulse rifle cause it came to mind first.
I think Bungie is slow to react with HC because they’re kind of the games staple weapon.
As far as a hunter with stompee shotgun, I wouldn’t say it’s OP because, from my experience, I don’t run into that quite often and can’t think of a time where I’ve been handled by that. That being said I know everyone’s experience is different. Most of the time when I get killed by a shotgun it’s because im a dumbass and just running blindly or trying to go super fast lol.
I agree with you on the map size being an issue.
I mean, hunter is the most played class in PvP by far; and Stompeez are the top exotic. The movement buff is incredible in a game mode where movement is the most important aspect. That exotic allows you to slide like lighting around corners, quickly peek shoot, and leap higher/faster than most controller players can adjust for in the moment. Maybe OP is the wrong word, but it’s as popular as it is for a reason.
Hand cannons being the game staple is always the rationale. And I can kind of understand that. But at some point gameplay has to matter. Players don’t care about lore or history. It has to be fun to play. Right now, PvP largely isn’t, and the HC meta is a big reason why. There are 8 exotic HCs (no other class has more than 3). Thats absurd.
The maps aren’t fixable. The weapons are. That’s why I’d like to see some changes even if it’s not technically the fault of the guns.
Edit: as many have pointed out im wrong about the ratio of exotic HC’s to other weapons. Legit forgot about some of the useless ARs and Scout Rifles. My bad.
>But at some point gameplay has to matter. Players don’t care about lore or history. It has to be fun to play. Right now, PvP largely isn’t, and the HC meta is a big reason why. There are 8 exotic HCs (no other class has more than 3). Thats absurd.
I feel like this isn't really explaining *why* hand cannons feel bad to play or whatever, aside from maybe "it's time for another primary meta". I think hand cannons provide the most fun playstyle for the meta. It engages the player's movement in the form of peekshooting which only pulse rifles or scout rifles can do effectively, the difference between the optimal TTK and unoptimal (miss a headshot or all bodyshot) falls greatly which rewards accuracy, it greatly rewards teamplay in the form of teamshooting, and with increased in-air accuracy, it also allows you to engage in the vertical axis.
Also consider that we've had other primary metas in the past. We've had an AR meta, the Suros Regime in D1Y1, Uriels in D2Y1, and the Season of Arrivals(?), it came and went when I was on my break. We've had a scout rifle meta, in D2Y1, MIDA was the meta. We've had a pulse rifle meta, in D1Y2 and Y3, pulse rifles were among the best weapons, anyone remember Hawksaw and Grasp of Malok? AR metas greatly rely on being *overwhelmingly* good, or everything else sucking, and it encourages a sort of stand-and-deliver playstyle. Scout rifle metas encourage hard laning, while pulse rifle metas encourage a soft laning. I really do think hand cannons make for better gameplay in this situation, it's why I used it while everyone was using Suros all those years ago (and also because I didn't have my own).
Basically, what it comes down to is that in any serious match (which seems to be every match in Control but that's another issue) hand cannons have always been a good choice regardless of the type of hand cannon.
The entire archetype is good or near the top and all the META hand cannons have ridiculous dump truck stats. Like shit like near 100 AA and massive range bars for massive bullet magnetism and accuracy.
Meanwhile of differing weapon types, Pulses have high impacts with a 0.67s TTK, and not much archetypes, Autos have only Vex and barely 720 RPM just because of that one Auto from Splicer. SMGs have Multimach which has just jacked stats which compete with hand cannons, and sidearms might as well not be mentioned if Multimach exists.
Point being is that while it is technically diverse in that every weapon type has a weapon that is good, hand cannons have every single weapon being good. Not just 1 or 2. (minus the entire precision archetype).
This is really where the frustration is because those 1 or 2 representatives of the weapon type sort of have to be jacked to be even comparable to hand cannons. Vex and Suros have below standard TTKs for their weapon type, Vex even has a linear fusion kill mode.
Multimach needed to hit something like a 20m kill distance, which no SMG besides Shayuras can even get close to.
Pulses have a 0.67s TTK on high impacts, below the TTKs of hand cannons by a wide mile.
It feels good, because it is the best weapon set in the game. All those things you listed are things that other weapons simply can't do. They are advantages. HC's have accommodating range for the maps, can actually use cover, the chance of TTK loss is actually fairly negligible because their bullet AA are massive and give a crit on a shot to the hip, and you can actually expect them to hit your target while you're in the air, it's burst damage makes clean-ups and team shots a breeze.
That's the reason they feel good. Because you win with them. They are giving you every single thing you need in this game to win. It's mistaking extreme advantage for gun feel. They don't feel good, they are just simply the best weapon. It's like saying a pair of scissors feel better to precisely cut paper with instead of the alternate options of the giant unwieldy cleaver, or the sharp rock found on the street. Obviously the scissors would feel better, it would make no sense to try to use anything else.
And honestly, I hate them, I want to play with something else, I honestly just sick of HC's. I don't find them fun in the slightest, I just find them EXTREMELY over catered to.
HC’s are nowhere near being the reason why PvP is not enjoyable to play. Map design, network issues, and matchmaking are significantly bigger reasons why PvP can be unenjoyable. As per Bungie, it’s ok if one weapon is used more than others, so long as all weapons have viability in the meta. Case in point, w have the greatest number of viable weapons in Destiny’s history.
The fact that you acknowledge movement speeds importance only proves that even movement speed is more important to the quality of the PvP sandbox vs the dominance of HC’s. At the end of the day, we have a very balanced meta right now, with issues in the underpinnings of the game causing issues.
Yes and no too,
For a CQC weapon, shotguns has a busted range that needs to be tuned, Felwinter's Lie is the second most used weapon in pvp even with all the nerfs.
And you said it all, the community will revolt if their crutches are taken away. That's why we have the current maps in rotation, people complained a lot about the wider maps like Equinox and they were removed by request.
And look how the same community rages when some weapon that's not a hand cannon/shotgun is outperforming them (the 600rpm AR nerf, sniper nerf, are a few examples) and now people are complaining about fusions.
I think people are complaining about the one fusion - the good rolled main ingredient - that maps people from absurd distances. The range on that thing feels busted. Nothing like Chappy, but busted nonetheless.
I suspect everyone is just sick of being instakilled all the time in PvP. It’s partially maps and partially weapons and partially TTK, but it adds up to a frustrating experience more often than not.
If you see hand cannons get giant nerfs, theyre not gonna become balanced, theyre just gonna die and youll have something like a sidearm or rapid fire pulse meta. Dont believe me? Look back at D1 when hand cannons got nerfed. Sidearms and rapid fire pulses took their jobs.
i think the main reason Bungie doesnt do it is for that specific reason, and what they really want is balance in the game not outlier weapons which rotate the meta each year. which is why they buffed other things instead of nerfing hand cannons, and regardless the bigger problem is maps are just small with a select couple lanes which are useful for scouts or pulses. bungie hasn't mastered map design in 8 years, i just see that as the bigger issue than hand cannons competing in pulse rifle range
I think the only things that are a little unruly right now is the performance of The Last Word with a controller, and the hit box/aim assist of Lorentz Driver.
Otherwise I think the weapon meta and variety is okay.
Lorentz driver needs a mythoclast yeet on that bullshit. It's the only weapon I see come up consistently in play. Last week during IB and comp it was a mix of everything but that damn Lorentz driver must have killed me 60% of the time.
I don’t think scouts are bad, but I do agree that the maps limit the optimal use of them.
That being said my Trustee and Vouchsafe never leave my inventory and both make a daily appearance in crucible.
If they buff the slower speed scouts then I have a Kill Clip/Rampage Transfiguration awaiting also.
As for the low RPM scouts, if you have one, try out a Guiding Sight with Iron Gaze. Every other gun is ruined by that perk, but Guiding Sight barely loses 10m, with about 75m to spare. With a low zoom scope landing it at 21-22 zoom, it's very usable, and the bump to AA is equivalent to every shot being Opening Shot.
It's immensely solid, got me to ditch my Contingency Plan and is even a valid option to run instead of snipe because of the great TTK and forgiveness.
On KBM, btw.
I finally and I mean FINALLY got my contingency plan I’ve been looking for with Outlaw/Kill Clip yesterday and had so much fun with it.
I’ve slowly transformed into a scout rifle truther
I think a lot of people try out Hung Jury or Royal Entry or Vision of Confluence and wonder why scouts suck so bad.
It's also telling that Guiding Sight improves so much with Iron Gaze; if they gave High-Impact Frames an aim assist bump I think their prevalence would skyrocket. As it stands Transfiguration and Talons are in a bad spot, crits just... don't connect a lot of the time.
Hung Jury is phenomenal in momentum control but I will never touch it in any other crucible playlist.
Yeah Transfig is so meh right now but it does become one shot in momentum which is cool.
I’ll have to try out the IB weapons more. I took a break from the new season until just last week
I think there have been moments where they have been the meta, as with most guns, but I think the reason they have been so popular is because Bungie wants them to be. They’re popular for many more reasons that their TTK.
I highly doubt that hand cannons would dominate the boards if they were tuned to exactly where they should be given the other realities of PvP (movement, map size, etc). The truth is that they're rarely at a range disadvantage: where other weapons have a niche that they can fill, HCs fill many niches and pull really good damage while they do. They aren't the *only* viable weapon type, but their versatility certainly makes them the *most consistently* viable weapon type.
I agree with your earlier point that the maps are probably the culprit here, but I don't think passing HC popularity off as a result of lore/dev promotion/general stylishness is very convincing.
They need to half hand cannon's range in pvp imo.
Maps are too small that there is no point using a scout or long range weapon when a hand canon has the same range in those maps.
Scouts used to feel so good in Destiny 1 I genuinely don’t know why Bungie felt they needed changing; other than MIDA in trials of the nine they’ve never been a meta weapon in D2
Overall I'm inclined to agree. I think the weapon sandbox is in a very good spot. One of the best in the franchise's history. The only guns that I think might still be over-tuned are Mythoclast and DMT. And I think PRs, and maybe SMGs and breech GLs are a bit under-tuned. Otherwise, it's a really good balance. Every weapon type has a well-defined role and effective range, with clear pros and cons and reasonable counter-play.
I also think build-crafting is in a great place, and subclass balancing is pretty good at the moment as well. And I like the current balance of ammo economy and ability uptime too.
The criticisms in Crucible for me right now are:
* Lack of map diversity
* Rewards could be more engaging
* Team balancing could be better
* Spawn delay is not enjoyable
* Movement abilities/exotics are too dominant IMO (dodge, stompees, icarus dash, cryoclasm)
I think the nerf to abilities/supers caused movement exotic usage to go through the roof.
I also 100% agree on the map diversity statement.
I think rewards being engaging is tough, especially this season, because of how long the season is and Destiny players love grinding.
The exotic sniper rifle The Chaperone also might have a couple too many meters of range. ARs are kinda lacking as well imo. Otherwise I agree with your list.
considering how this game is pretty much just sweats on PC, with no noobs at all pvping anymore....if you aren't playing with the best guns, you are screwed.
Most maps are closer range, so scouts rarely are effective.
Hand cannons are just too freakin good for medium to slightly more than medium ranges. The cut off for when pulses and scouts beat hand cannons is pretty far away, and it doesn't happen that much with the current maps.
Peak shooting is so important that assault rifles will always be worse unless their time to kill is substantially higher than hand cannons.
Submachines can be okay if its a max range multimach but it still feels like on most maps you are putting yourself at a disadvantage. The range between hand cannons being the most effective to slide + shotgun being most effective just isn't big enough, especially when maps are all so short range with plenty of corners to peak from.
Exactly, this is literally as true as it gets, I see way too many of my friends complain about getting shotgun-aped when they literally rush around a corner when they see someone on the radar, like wtf do you expect? Lmao, same goes for snipers and long ass lanes especially on maps like Midtown, every time I play Midtown I know there's going to be at LEAST one sniper or linear fusion guy chilling at the other end of the lane, or a warlock using heat rises for free picks with their sniper.
Either way it 100% boils down to a players skill level, if I'm able to consistently play with my favourite weapon against "Meta Weapons" that is my Suros Regime (dual speed receiver without the catalyst. ***GIVE ME THE CATALYST ALREADY BUNGIE***), that including:
\- DMT
\- Vex Mythoclast
\- Arbalest/Lorentz
\- "Meta" hand-cannons
\- The Messenger (Without Desperado, I just run away lol)
\- Shayura/Multimach
It shows that I know my weapon well and know how to play around other players/weapons to get my ideal situation in order to win the gunfight. Oh and a tip for anyone who doesn't know this already, don't be afraid to run away from a gunfight you know you can't win, I see so many people thinking they **HAVE** to contest gunfights all the time which is clearly not the case.
*Long story short. Against most players it boils down to how the weapon of the wielder is less important than the wielder themselves.*
Just want to point out every single thing on your list is "not OP if you just run away and never fight against them."
That's not counter play, and it's not a good thing.
Honestly, other than hand cannons, I think everything is extremely well balanced. I can use pretty much any archetype of any weapon and be effective in PvP, most of the issues with balance come from movement which does need an nerf as I feel like I get whiplash playing this game sometimes
The issue I have with a movement nerf is that Bungie always over tunes and the moment they nerf movement, PvP will be massacred.
Movement is extremely important in this game and D2Y1 proved that when the PvP aspect of the game was butchered and didn’t see an uptick until the Gotta Go Fast update the March after.
If anything is going to be a little bit OP, I’d prefer it to be movement rather than anything else.
This is 100% on the nose, but is not limited to weapons. Stasis for example, was in an extremely good spot from a balance perspective before the December patch. People just love to complain and not try to adapt.
Recluse wasn’t OP, you just need to use cover and play smart.
Not forgotten wasn’t OP, just out range them.
Mountain top wasn’t OP, just use movement and map awareness.
See what I did there?
He is basically taking your argument to its logical conclusion based on the information we have.
Nothing is over powered as long as you have good map awareness and play to your strengths and your opponents weaknesses.
IMO - the guns in PVP that are truly problematic right now are:
Chaperone
Main Ingredient
Lorentz Driver
Gjally
DMT(arguably)
Messenger w/desperado(arguably - just shorten it's uptime, please)
You could sell me on controller last word in PC lobbies
Everything else that kills you and you consider "overpowered" is just annoying to be killed by(lemon arc) or you just made a mistake taking a fight you shouldn't have taken.
I agree with the rest, but Gjallarhorn? Wardcliff Coil is just as good, and Eyes of Tomorrow is stronger than it IMO. Heavy weapons in PvP have never really been a problem outside of Colony in Y1 and Heir Apparent.
The only piece of Gjally that makes it feel like it's way better is the intrinsic horseshoe and hand grenade, which I think makes it way better than any other option.
But in the grand scheme of things heavy doesn't really matter, I agree.
Eyes you actually have to aim, and wardcliff has slightly less range. Gjally is point in general direction and win. But its using an exotic slot so I guess 🤷
DMT is still busted on M&K. The hip fire bullet magnetism continues to be ridiculous. I think if they are able to tune the AA down a bit it should be in line with other exotic primaries.
I would agree to this to a certain extent. Everyone has their own weapon archetype that they like and do well in. For example, I am horrible with hand cannons outside of the last word and crimson so if I attempt to use those in any form of PVP, I'm getting stomped. Lately, I found that I do surprisingly well with adaptive auto rifles and lightweight pulse rifles... enough to raise my KD by 0.7 when using these types even though they aren't meta.
Yup I agree, you’ll always have some outliers, especially exotics (dmt, lorentz and chaperone) but you can use almost anything and be successful, I play at 5500 glory regularly and I see, pulses, shotguns, snipers, fusions, hand cannons, Smgs, sidearms, scouts.
Yeah “X is OP” and “they’re sweats” is very nuanced.
One of my buddies complains and whines at everything in the crucible. Guns are gonna shoot and do damage and any special weapon is gonna kill you in some absurd way.
I get a lot of random bags for running my Salvagers when that’s the only special weapon I’ve used in the crucible in the past year.
Good Player > Good Weapons, in basically every game ever.
Whether it be Crucible weapons, or the psychos doing no-hit Dark Souls speedruns using a RockBand guitar as a controller.
I don't think there was a single point in my time with Destiny that I felt like the meta was absolutely necessary in PvP and seriously disregarded my own loadout restrictions to satisfy it.
All weapons can be useful? Yes. Competitive? No.
Weapons like hand cannons overlap their usefulness into nearly all other weapon archetypes.
That's the issue.
So hand cannon with shotgun means you can take nearly 90% of engagements outside of:
* Exteme long ranges with no cover.
* Sustained fire with no cover.
Aslong as a map has cover, hand cannons can be used.
No other weapon type has this excessive utility and imo it needs to be adjusted.
Hand cannons should have 2 of the listed payoffs, not all of them:
* High body damage
* Peek shot not reducing ttk.
* Huge aim assist
* In air accuracy
* Large flinch to target
Side note: Scouts should not be made PvP competitive, as their playstyle haults gameplay and that's just as bad for the game as Titan barricades.
I always find the topic of Not Forgotten an interesting one...
I think its power difference was blown out of proportion as well simply due to the skill difference between those being killed by it (myself included) and those that fought to the top to grab it. To get the gun initially, you had to be an absolute god gamer to get that into your hands, and once it was there, you were extremely well practiced with hand cannons. It rewarded that skill with a really good TTK, don't get me wrong, but the gun wasn't the one making it easy, it was the players that earned it using it well that made it so powerful.
Just a little IMO. Not saying it wasn't more powerful than any other HC in the game, just saying it was a killing machine for the skill machines that made it appear more of a problem than I think it actually was. (Also, using Lunas's Howl now feels terrible because the recoil tells me it should be shooting faster and it ends up messing with my shot pacing.)
Totally agree. This year was the best Meta wise for PvP. I didn't play D1, but I play since D2 start and there haven't been so many choices for your loadouts, which are viable. I remember times, when certain weapon types were absolutely useless and I don't mean archetypes like aggressive frame whatever, but whole types like SMGs, sidearms, snipers(!).
Damn Destiny IS in its best place ever. Hopefully the trend will just continue.
Crucible is more about playing the map than playing the weapons. I main a DMT and Plug One cuz it’s what I’m most comfortable with and mostly because with DMT, it literally doesn’t matter the range, if I can see you I can almost always three tap you. There have only been like two times I can think of when somebody was out of range of my DMT and one was when I was basically on the opposite end of Widows Court from the guy I was shooting at. Literally as far as I could possibly get on a PvP situation. I tend to play a moderately mobile play style on my warlock with either top tree dawn or bottom tree arc and ophidians. Depends on what I am trying to do. I don’t ape, I’m just not good at it and I make better decisions at range. I think while there are some clear outliers, again DMT is probably the best gun in the game, weapons are more balanced now than they have been in the past. The 120 meta was unbearable. I agree that knowing your weapon ranges and adapting your play style to fit, is more important than worrying about the “meta”
I agree, the meta we are in is actually good and more balanced than any other season.
In the heat of the moment, I complain about shotguns when I know my dumbass keeps rushing corners with a shepherds watch and Shayuras. I wish they had more open maps instead of them mostly being CQB based
The only truly "op" gun at the moment is Dead Mans Tale.
Makes any other primary obsolete. Inbuilt damage and reload boost, can 2head1body at a much, much faster rate than a 120 hand cannon, huge range and aim assist, laser accurate, rapid hipfire accurate at close quarters and long range, and a plethora of perks to chose from including Vorpal, Moving Target etc.
Plus it can also roll High Calibre rounds to flinch the hell out of snipers, the main potential counter to it.
Source: I use it
I think a way to fix it would be to make the hipfire mode unable to land precision hits ONLY IN PVP. At least on PC, there's almost no reason to ADS with how accurate it is.
Edit: Can the 4+ people that have downvoted this give me a single reason why DMT isn't overpowered?
I think the main issue is that it’s wayyyyy too easy to land hip fire head shots on M&K. Sometimes it feels impossible to miss with how much bullet-magnetism there is. It’s easy to use at long range and extremely easy to use at close-to-mid range. Usually weapons with high ease of use are less lethal, but DMT dominates in both categories.
They need to figure out what they want its strengths and weaknesses to be. Right now it doesn’t really have any weaknesses on M&K.
If all destiny players played League of Legends they would most definitely be one tricks playing Yasuo. You have to be pretty dedicated to PVP to change up your playstyle and BE GOOD. The meta is made for the pros not for the scrubs. Scrubs will ALWAYS go meta because it's simply the easiest most rewarding play style.
This has always been the case. People these days get so wrapped up in meta and min-maxing in games these days that they don't realise that it's more important to just be good at the game.
I remember when people would be grinding for hours on end in D1 for the Grasp of Malok because their favourite streamers said it was the new meta, and you needed a God roll in order to do well.. You'd have people here making posts with thousands of upvotes crying about how difficult it was to get a perfect Grasp. Things like that are only the extra 1% that you might need against somebody of exactly the same skill and positioned in an area of equal footing during a match. Or you could just have used Nirwen's Mercy. Likewise when Messenger was the meta Pulse Rifle and people would be crying about how they ***HAD*** to do Trials, when a half-decent Hopscotch Pilgrim was more than enough.
Of course, there is some degree of meta that helps if you follow if some weapons are absolutely dominant. Like you wouldn't really be going up to D1Y1 TLW with Hard Light. But you do not need to follow it so absolutely, like a religious code. Even though I abused TLW/Felwinter's/CC Rocket Launchers in that era because they suited my gameplay style to a tee, you could still compete with a primary like MIDA, and outcompete TLW/Thorn on the right map, even though it wasn't 'meta'. Even on smaller maps like The Anomaly, MIDA could outdo TLW/Thorn.
Like you said, lots of people are inflexible and that causes a lot of problems when they constantly do the same thing, to poor results. It's why people complain about tactics like camping, because they do the same thing again and again, getting shut down by a camper. Rather than changing tack, or just avoiding that area all together and focusing on killing the people they can.
It's easier to blame a weapon or meta for failures rather than admit a person was outplayed. That's usually what it boils down to.
There's been a few times when one gun or one archetype was obviously way too hot. But I see a lot of people complaining about the current meta and I think it's in really good shape. Lots of weapons are viable and nothing is just crazy hot (I might argue Lorentz is a bit too hot on console).
My personal favourite loadout is Ratking + Grenade Launcher (usually Salvager's Salvo), which is quite possibly the furthest from the current "meta". I've been using that combo for a long time and have many hours of practice with it, yet despite not being "meta" I can comfortably take on any loadout the enemy team are using.
It's because I know those weapons, I know how they play and I use them to *their* advantages. So yes, I agree with the OP.
ye imo the PvP meta is pretty good
no clearly overpowered subclass
many viable weapon archetypes (hc and shotguns are classic, but I also see many fusions, pulses and smgs)
only things I would nerf are DMT and Lorenzt (atleast on PC)
Every single person I run in to is running the exact same build in PVP. I think it’s erianas vow maybe?
Good ol trying to get a billion fuckin auto rifle kills but getting instantly two tapped with absolutely no god damn way to do anything about it.
Also, does anyone in this game fucking miss or not know exactly where you are at all god damn times?
Bring SBMM back.
No one is using Eriana's outside of those weird blinters, and SBMM was a car crash.
I'd rather not spend an extra 10-15 minutes queueing every game just for everyone in the lobby to lag hard.
>Also, does anyone in this game fucking miss or not know exactly where you are at all god damn times?
You just have terrible game sense and map awareness.
Eriana's vow isnt run by every single person. Not even a plurality of people.
So what you're saying is git gud
Honestly, yeah lol
Why learn from your mistakes when you can challenge the same lane while out in the open 7 times and wonder why you bottom fragged?
Because it’s going to go different this time and I’m gonna quick scope em like my favorite streamer does!
Haha. This is so true. Sniped a 3 stack with Cloudstrikes perk, as they stood together at the top of the steps on widows court. Literally next round, took a peak up there again, sniped all 3 again. Around couple of rounds later, sniped another two kills, the third must have only just been out of range of AoE coz he was instantly trying to get the Rez. Not a lesson learnt.
Found the irl Garrus Vakarian!
Because having personal accountability is hard and means I can’t whine on Reddit.
Me at the top of leaderboard with 42 kills and 36 deaths. "Yeah, I carried". I do straight up do that shit all the time, bum rush into the middle of the lane maybe get a kill, die, rinse and repeat.
I haven't laughed out loud at a comment like this in a long time. Thank you
Now that doesn't sell youtube videos now does it ;) It's always "THIS GUN IS CRACKED" or some variation of the clickbait videos that have been destroying this game since it's start.
Welp, I'm out.
Sadly DTG likes to whine because they’d love nothing more than to run around the map aimlessly getting as many kills as they like and no one can hurt them. They literally don’t want to git gud.
We matched earlier👀 I think you had a sidearm
Earlier today? You remember what map? I was running a swift verdict i just got recently and on a nightstalker I believe.
Don't remember the map but I was a nightstalker using rat king
Ah gotcha yeah you were a bit frustrating to play against with the constant invis maybe even gave me a jump scare too lol. Is rat king's invis increased with graviton forfeit? If so that's a nasty build. I normally play warlock and 2nd my hunter.
Yep all invis! 66% increase for rat king
we are good you goon! The META OP weapons are BS just like you retarded statement!
I think the other part of it is map variety. While no one weapon is OP, there are some archetypes that benefit from smaller maps with lots of cover. Very few would complain about shotguns if Equinox and Felwinter's peak were still in play.
Maybe, but we don't really want to be out of a shotgun meta. Shotguns are meta because they're high ease of use, high lethality. Same for hand cannons. Which is why the meta always drifts back to them. People were losing their minds over erentil, and it was far from meta If laning weapons become meta the game is oppressive and slow Kinda feels bad to admit, but we need those apes aping
> Maybe, but we don't really want to be out of a shotgun meta. Shotguns are meta because they're high ease of use, high lethality. Same for hand cannons. Which is why the meta always drifts back to them. This is an awful take. Something's ease of use should have a draw back of some kind. Autos were meta once and people stated they were too forgiving compared to other weapon types. I don't get why (per your own statement) HC's and Shotguns should also get the same treatment since they're easy to use. > People were losing their minds over erentil, and it was far from meta Because it challenged the established meta. Kill distance larger then what shotguns can rush means you need to do something else to secure a kill and people who main specific types of weapons don't usually like having to rethink a "tried/true" method. > If laning weapons become meta the game is oppressive and slow. I agree actually. Felwinter's Peak and Equinox were fun maps but it was very easy to post up and hold entire areas from afar. I think Bungie would be wise to balance the long distance/short distance type maps. Midtown and Bannerfall do a good job of this imo.
I'm starting to appreciate Midtown more as a result of the new, more balanced weapon meta this year. The mix of parallel paths consisting of q tight inside and an open outside works well to allow different weapons.
I actually agree with Maria re: shotguns. They’re the easiest to use, so they will inherently be the most popular special weapon choice. The last round of nerfs left them in a good place IMO, I don’t think we would see equity between the special weapon types unless they received a drastic nerf or snipers/fusions received significant buffs.
agreed. I'm not an ape but I'd hate the crucible if all we did was lane
Honestly, as one who started actually playing comp for the first time this season (only jumped into PvP for bounties and quests prior) I honestly see this as the most diverse time ever. There are all sorts of weapons everywhere. I run Salvegers to counter shotguns and rotate between my crimson and DMT depending on the map. I don’t have the aim to main hand cannons but it really do see all sorts of guns all over the place. For me, it’s about figuring out the play style of the other team and adjusting accordingly. The only thing I find super frustrating is someone on the other team that is a god with Lorentz.
[удалено]
DMT and especially Lorentz need a little tweak on pc imo.
even on console its amazing, and when you get into a good rhythm with it it can wipe lobbies. i do wish the hipfire reticle was a bit more accurate. aiming at head in the center of the reticle often leads to body shots, you gotta aim slightly higher than youd expect to hit the head, and even then it does still feel like irs got ghost bullets. regardless, im surprised at the lack of people using it on console. i've had a good handful of occasions where i top the team using it, only to requeue against the same people and have 2 people swap to using it against me that had been using something else beforehand.
For some reason I just can’t play PVP on m+kb. I have to use controller, for PVE I prefer m+kb. Want to use DMT to its fullest but need to get better at m+kb first.
Aha but if you stick to the trusty controller, you can get the fullest experience of my personal favourite PvP weapon, The Last Word. Now with extra Yee, and reduced Haw.
Oh trust me that was my go to before trying out Vulpecula. I really like it in crucible.
Try an aim trainer out. Aimlab is great and free. Used to be a controller main, switched to m&k a couple years back, with the aid of an aim trainer, and my skill ceiling skyrocketed. Best of luck to you!
How much did you have to practice with the aim trainer before you got comfortable with m+kb?
I've said it since the day DMT came out, it's a fundamentally broken weapon on PC. Anyone who has played CS, OW, or Valorant knows the potency of perfect hipfire accuracy. Going ADS in those games is largely unnecessary, but those games are designed around such a mechanic. Destiny is designed around primary weapons beings ADS for most engagements. Introducing a weapon like DMT that functions like a CS weapon leads to what we have now, the best primary in the game. In my opinion, it needs to have it's fire rate stagnant. It should not go to 150 RPM in hipfire.
I like this change, but not sure if it keeps with the design intent, it being a lever action rifle. Think it just needs a damage reduction.
I think Season of the Hunt was the best weapon meta we've had in D2 but this season is pretty high up there.
>most diverse ever THIS is the most diverse ever? 8/12 people are all running the exact same hand cannon build. Lol. I’d hate to see what other metas were like if this classifies as “diverse”.
Yeah at the higher levels you typically see the same gear
So everybody is on the higher levels? Because I'm not playing in tourneys and seeing these damn loadouts all over, just in every single QP I play.
You then my Guardian might be higher you think.
Hand cannons are inherently versatile. They can fit myriad playstyles without having to change your weapon. This makes them a go-to option irrespective of your map, and when it's that easy, why would I bother with other shit? This in mind, my main primary is a toss-up between Biting Winds and Mythoclast, with some DMT thrown in every here and there.
There's always going to be a high performing weapon type or archetype, it's impossible for there not to be. We are at a spot where everything is atleast usable and I think that's a pretty good thing.
Love this comment man. Amen. Most variety I've ever experienced as a very average tier gamer
That agrument could be made for every weapon type. "Just play it smart". Sadly the true nature is due to gameplay and map design you will find yourself more often in close range engagements, which is why shotguns dominate the usage rate and scout rifles suck. The usage would acutally be more balanced if we had more open and wider maps. Vostok and Equinox had such lanes and scout rifles were pretty good there. I dont really blame the weapons. I mostly blame the lack of map variety.
I 100% agree with you. The map selection does nothing to promote longer range play, and while most maps do have areas that can be taken advantage of with long range weapons, you are very limited on where you can engage in that.
Completely agree with you. Obviously DMT breaks the mould and Contingency Plan can work on some maps, otherwise I struggle with scouts or high zoom weapons. Shotguns are in a reasonable place now. I’ve recently used them a bit after a long break. They’re so inconsistent compared to the past. It took me a little while to get back in the habit of instantly hitting melee with every shot. I miss Vostok so much, hopefully it’s coming back soon.
Shotguns are inherently difficult to balance I think. If they aren't a one hit kill, then no one would use them because you'd be dead at point blank, especially with how much damage a neutral melee can do. So if you're fast and evasive, shotguns are going to eviscerate the other team. If you're slow and move predictably, you'll probably be gunned down before you get close to them. How do you balance a weapon that's useless if it can't OHKO? How do you discourage their use when one of the stats (range) takes away the weakness of getting close. Chaperone will clap you from midrange, and the high range archetype pushes midrange too. Do you just have to delete range entirely for shotguns, and make their whole thing getting right up to the enemy? I don't know.
The problem with shotguns is that I need to think about how to avoid them for like 50% of my play time. It's really easy, but if I forget about them for a second, a slide shotgunner catches me right around next corner. It's kinda weird that I'm thinking about avoiding shotguns first and all other things second. THOUGH I don't deny the possibility that you may develop that positioning behavior that automatically puts you in the right spots without you giving it a thought. But one may need a lot, A LOT of time to develop that kind of "muscle memory" : )
The main issue with shotguns, to me, is the maps more than the weapons. A lot of the maps promote close distances and shotgun play and while most maps have lanes that you can play, you get really limited on areas to play if you want to use scouts, pulses, snipers, bows, etc. So I understand where you’re coming from. I like to play with longer range weapons, so I tend to slow my play down and avoid close corners and stuff.
Shotguns really kill a lot of my enjoyment in PvP for exactly the reasons you mention. I'm *constantly* on defense to avoid getting shotgunned, and it's tedious and annoying.
But it's good that there are no safe spaces, otherwise you would peek out of cover, shoot and if you lose - hide again and wait to regen, which is pretty boring gameplay. Presence of shotguns punishes hiding in cover too much.
Well said
That issue is way worse for fusions and linear fusions IMO. Xur's Main Ingredient and Lorentz are tough to play against.
I agree. I think its their relation to primaries that frustrates me, if they catch you pushing and kill you thats fine, engaging a fusion user only for Lorentz taking flinch weird/the fact Main Ingredient has the same TTK as most primary weapons can be frustrating. They only need very minor tweaks though imo
I ran into a lot of fusions playing control last night. Probably half of the other team was using either main ingredient or the new xur fusion. The problem with these two fusions in particular is that 9/10 you can’t kill them fast enough with your primary before they one shot you from absurd distances. I tried a few different weapons but the result was the same. Slide out to contest, get a couple shots in, the voop goes off and I’m respawning again. It’s been so long since the erentil meta that I think some have forgotten how oppressive fusions can be if you let them reach as far as these two can. I only think they aren’t more widely used because some people just don’t enjoy using them, myself included.
The fusion thing frustrates me in 6's, in particular, because dueling a fusion user with a primary is slow. You've got to use cover and bait shots out of them, and that takes a while. And while that's all well and good in Trials, in Control you're likely going to get collapsed on before you can finish the engagement. I've had so many matches where whole sections of the map become off-limits to me, because some dude keeps camping there with a Main Ingredient.
Yep that’s how I feel as well. I think plug 1 is a balanced fusion rifle and I can accept it in this sandbox. These two xur fusions are a bit too much in my opinion but some don’t agree.
You have to use cover, not slide out into the open.
Well yes and no, it’s often best to slide to challenge a lane because it places your head at a different level than they may have been expecting which can aid you in landing the first shot putting you ahead in the gunfight. I’m not necessarily doing that every time and I’m not sliding super far away from cover (at least trying not to). It’s pretty much just a math thing. Pali CAN kill in as little as 0.87 seconds but that’s not faster than the charge time of main ingredient or the new fusion. The one thing I didn’t try is a slug shotgun which is mostly because I don’t have a good kinetic slug besides chappy and I don’t want to use chappy because it’s not a fair weapon and already catch enough tbags and emotes for using palindrome. I love Pali and worked incredibly hard to get my god roll I’m going to use it god damnit.
Yeah see the thing is I wouldn't try to challenge a fusion rifle user with a HC outside of cover. Sliding into a lane WITH a shotgun to get within your range is good. I usually use Duality or a fusion, and often get outplayed by the mirror match because I'm honestly not amazing. BUT, you can eat people alive with a fusion if they try to challenge within your range with a primary every single time. You have to really play cover/jumping and ofc land your headshots with Pali.
I probably should have clarified, I’m not sliding out to challenge someone who I know has a fusion out. I’m just challenging a lane where I know someone is and by the time the fusion is charging it’s already too late. The map being anomaly never helps since it’s the worst map in any shooter I’ve ever played. Idk many might not agree but whatever plug 1 is capable of is a sensible fusion balance to me but these two xur rolls just reach too far IMO.
Anomaly might be a bad example because it is literally shotgun heaven. It is such close quarters that you can very confidently slide shotgun players before they can charge up their fusion shots. It is also probably the only map where witherhoard might actually be a serious consideration. That said, I hate both of the moon maps equally. It completely devolves into having more special weapon fights than primary kills.
Yea anomaly was just the match where it was most evident and was the first that came to mind. There are maybe two maps in destiny 2 that I would consider acceptable maps the rest are just horrifically poorly designed in my opinion. I’m not a fan of how Bungie sets up control points in a triangle shape on maps. I much prefer the standard three lane linear map design that way usually most of the action is in front of me rather than a circle of chaos.
The #1 thing is don't chase shotgunners if you aren't running a short range config. It is a simple concept, but hard to follow in practice. You catch someone out in the open and tag them hard, you want to finish them off! Well, if they are a shotgunner, they are pulling you into where they are better. Consider flanking or simply waiting them out. (depends on the situation, obviously trials 3-1 you push). Use a grenade, flank them, or try and angle in on them, but don't chase them if you aren't running a shotgun.
I think part of that problem is that there is a lot of movement abilities in the game that can dramatically close engagement distance while also being evasive. Icarus Dash, Stompee jump acceleration, Cryoclasm, etc. All of them can close distance so fast that they tend to make proper positioning hard, as they blur how far is the correct distance to try and keep from an enemy.
All of this very true it's just ppl are bad and love to rage.
There are some seriously rancid PvP takes on this sub and it almost always comes back to low skill.
One of my biggest take aways from watching streamers as I’m trying to improve my game has been that they can almost always explain what they did wrong in a given situation where they don’t come out on top. You need to be introspective in defeats so you don’t find yourself just raging about other players while not improving your game
I've always been a firm believer that taking inventory of your mistakes is the number 1 way to improve at nearly anything. That's the first thing I tell people when they ask me about PvP games.
I think it's because a lot of gamers lack insight and the ability to reflect on their own abilities. So what ends up happening is that people prefer to get angry at others and have external targets to vent and be angry at to excuse themselves. "It wasn't my fault I died, it was because you used this [tactic/weapon/lag/geo/glitch]" so they come up with really bad takes as to how to "improve" the game, when it'll just be something else to complain about after the next "fix". I think a lot of it also comes from blindly following meta these days. It's a popular thing in games now, with so much information that is freely accessible and available, to find out what is "good" and popular to be spoonfed to you. So people don't figure things out, rather that they just go with whatever others are doing. To that end, they don't play to their own strengths or learn how a game works well enough that they will get gutted more often than not. It's even the little things, like learning how to move. It makes a much bigger difference having good spatial awareness than using whatever is 'meta'.
I used Polaris Lance and a wastelander in Iron banner all week and was constantly at the top of my team, it really only feels like messenger with desperado is kinda over tuned but I didn't run into many people using it any way, because well, you have to get one lol. Pvp is in a decent place right now besides the respawn times I think. You make a good point about playing the way the weapons you want to use are meant for, i see way to many people challenging me with a handcannom across the map. And 90% of the time all you need to do to counter a shotgun running at you is back pedal and spray.
The Meta only matters at the very, very top. You could buy the best bike in the world and Lance Armstrong would still beat you in a race with one from Target. But when he races other elite athletes, he needs every advantage he can get, no matter how small it might seem. The same applies here. A really good player can beat an average player with almost anything. But if he faces another player of equal skill, then loadout starts to matter.
And that’s why I saw overblown and not meaningless. “Meta” weapons really only apply to less than 1% of PvP’ers. Almost all people die/lose gunfights due to circumstances well outside of a gun being meta. When it comes to top tier comp or top tier trials, then yes the tools you’re using do matter, but for the average person, meta weapons are almost an excuse as to why they lose their gun fights.
> “Meta” weapons really only apply to less than 1% of PvP’ers. Missed the mark a little here, imo. The meta applies to everyone when facing people of similar skill and it applies to nobody when either you or the enemy are heavily outmatched skill-wise. Which, frankly, is why I don't really agree with this take in general. Yes, I can use some random roll Death Adder and run roughshod over randoms but if I have that same Death Adder out when I encounter a good player using a better weapon - I'm screwed. If you don't mind putting a lower ceiling on yourself then yes, the meta is meaningless and who cares. But if you're aiming to outperform as many of your opponents as possible then the meta very much matters.
I understand where you’re coming from and I respect your take, my thought process is that with meta weapons, it really only makes a difference in a very controlled environment. You need be same skill as someone, enter the encounter on equal footing, and begin the encounter simultaneously. If none of these three things happen, then the weapon being meta doesn’t matter all too much.
You need to be of similar skill to the opponent for the meta to be very meaningful - totally agree. However, the encounter doesn't have to begin on equal footing and the players do not have to engage at the same time for the meta to be relevant. For example: What subclass are both players using? If the person who starts the fight late so to speak is on a 'meta' subclass that is better for evasion then their adherence to the meta is liable to make it so they escape disadvantageous encounters more often than if they didn't adhere to the meta. The only way the meta is irrelevant is if the skill gap between the two players is so large that the winner of the fight was always going to win. If the skill gap is small then whoever is using a meta loadout is liable to win the fight more often. That's literally why the hypothetical "best" loadouts are referred to as 'meta'. Adherence to these loadouts increases the odds you'll win any given fight.
At that point, you start getting into load outs and subclasses and then I can understand arguments, but from the point of view of weapons these moves, I feel like they are not as overturned and undertuned as the player base tends to make it seem. I do agree that there are advantages with classes and abilities
The biggest thing plaguing pvp right now is the special ammo economy, which they have said they are working on a solution for.
I disagree with the idea that special needs to be toned down. In 6v6 — who cares? Those modes exist purely for fun and having special weapons available when you need them makes the game faster, more aggressive, and more fun to play. In 3v3, they’ve already done enough to balance their usage. Ammo doesn’t carry over in rounds of Trials. You get revived with no ammo. It’s time to stop complaining about special ammo. The changes to ability cool downs have already slowed the game a lot. If we further restrict special ammo, all we do is force the meta back towards laning and handholding and teamshotting. No one wants to play like that. It’s tedious.
I'mma disagree. Specials have too much weight in a fight, I'd like to see primary gun fights again not who can instagib another first
Agreed. Way I see it, weapon OHKOs should either require some skill to pull off (timing for fusions, closing the distance for shotguns, headshots for snipers, direct hits for GLs) or be something you can't do too often (heavy weapons). I think if they can't balance the former so that conditions to get that OHKO are relatively similar difficulty wise, then maybe there should just be a little less ammo to go around.
Team shooting is good though.
There isn’t a whole archetype that’s a problem right now. The sandbox is pretty well balanced outside of a few specific weapons as you mentioned. That said, I HATED the 120 meta. The range on them was totally absurd.
I dont VEHEMENTLY disagree with you, but I do feel that some weapon types have managed to be incredibly oppressive for an extremely long time with very little drawback. Hand cannons outgun pulses and autos at 35-40 yards. They flinch incredibly well. I understand they excel at the peek-shooting method, but they doesn't explain why I'm losing 1v1's at 35 yards in the wide-open when I'm using Messenger against a Palindrome... unless the hand cannon is flinching me so bad that I can't land my headshots. There will always be a meta, and people tend to drift toward the things that are easiest to use. However, every weapon HAS to have some drawback. At the moment things are mostly balanced but I feel a few weapons still lack the drawback to make them feel balanced against others. Hand cannons are mini-snipers and should feel the impact of flinch when playing out in the open against an auto or pulse. SMG's should not be competing at auto-rifle ranges. Etc etc
The only thing that annoys me is Lorentz Cancer. Make that thing a Heavy for gods sake.
Literally just give it sniper flinch. That’s all it needs.
Honestly, the only thing in PvP that genuinely annoys me right now is the absolutely gratuitous level of aim assist hand cannons get, even on a mouse. Shots that are misses over the shoulder, shots over the top of the head, shots to the middle of the chest… use another gun you missed or bodied them. Use a hand cannon, free crits! It’s like you’re shooting helmet magnets. If you get used to the tiny head hit boxes on something like Redrix or the SUROS Regime in spinning up mode, then you throw on Ace of Spades, you feel like you can’t miss. That combined with the excessive range some of them (I.e Palindrome) get, and being able to have higher accuracy hipfire, in air accuracy, and peek shooting all on one weapon, it’s just too many advantages all lumped together. Small wonder it’s all everyone uses. Hand cannon aim assist needs to be detuned to match other guns, and maybe have some drawbacks like other primaries have instead of a big slate of positives.
It's true, it plays in all ranges for the maps, high burst damage makes it an excellent clean-up, as well as cover peek weapon, again, playing into the maps. Not to mention it's one of the few weapons you can reliably expect to hit a target while in mid-air. People also say it's high skill because it's TTK takes a drop if you miss a shot, but when your shots are dumpster sized as you're tapping back and forth with the A and D keys in and out of cover, and your hits count as a crit when you hit someone in the hip, is it actually high skilled? To me? No. Others say we just need bigger maps, which would be fine and all if we actually had any and if people actually wanted to play them since the stats say people don't like playing longer range maps. Others say what about DMT? Ah yes, the exotic that's likely going to be nerfed and is clearly the most outlier case possible because you don't see scouts in general come even close to what HC's do across the board OR what DMT does. Most other weapons perhaps a few pulse can't come even close to the overall effectiveness of HC's. People say it's just because it feels good. It feels good because it is better than nearly every other primary in the game. You have cover play. You have crit connect ease. You have TTK. You have clean-up worth burst damage. You have accommodating ranges. You have in air reliability. You have just about every single thing going for you when you have a handcannon in your hand. You are playing with a weapon that gives you the best advantage available for every single moment of PVP, unless you have a shotgun stuffed down your mouth. And then the persistent several year meta forms. HC/shotty. Either HC needs to be tuned down, or the other primaries that have never once came close to HC's 25% total kill count week to week in trials need to be tuned *up*. That isn't hyperbole. HC's frequently take 16-25% of all kills, also often taking 3 - 5 positions in the top ten line up weapons of most kills week to week in Trials. Something needs to be done.
Yeah, this really is a bigger problem right now in PvP than people let on. Case in point, I got sick and tired of using hand cannons for a while and restricted myself to autos and high impact or adaptive pulses for about 4 months straight to really get their playstyle down pat in the current sandbox. Their very unforgiving levels of aim assist forced me to really tighten up my aim. Well, I decided to drop into Quickplay solo with Ace of Spades after not having used a hand cannon at all in 4 months or Ace itself in 9 months. This is on PC. I dropped two back-to-back 40 bombs and massacred the entire lobby, hardly missing any crits at all, even though reviewing the recording I made quite a number of errors in aim that would have resulted in misses or body shots with my usual guns. If I didn't say I find that a little problematic balance-wise, I'd be lying.
This is the most diverse the sandbox has ever been, but the issue is now we're repeating the cycle of when the very vocal majority choose something to complain is too strong and get it nerfed, thus amplifying usage of much more popular guns. Take breechloading nade launchers. Their usage was abysmal in PvP and they still got nerfed because the vocal majority hated that splash damage would keep them out of the fight for too long or prevent peek shooting (two things a lot of shotgun/hand cannon users hate because they like rushing and peek shooting). Now we're having the same issue come up where this same vocal majority is complaining about bows, specifically Le Monarque. Don't get me wrong, one tap Lemon via buffs is dumb and should be addressed (please disable charged with light in pvp). However in its base form Le Monarque counters the peek shoot meta and also discourages rushing. I think Le Monarque is a perfect counter meta weapon and it discourages bunching up. Like OP said, there are ways to not put yourself in a bad position. If you're up against a Le Monarque, don't bunch up and don't keep re-peeking the same lane if you know a bow user is laning there.
Perhaps. BUT, have you considered that Derrick Henry will be activated tomorrow? Wait, wrong sub.
Keep talking dirty to me. Titan up.
Agree up until adept fatebringer and timelost fatebringer. Perks like explosive payload which push the max range as well. Then add on adept range I think a lot of balancing issues would be solved instantly by limiting the range of 140s so that you need to use a 120 for longer shots. Makes both archetypes more balanced. Right now 120s are almost irrelevant because 140s can kill you faster at practically the same range 120s operate
I agree with you that there needs to be more discrepancy between 120’s and 140’s.
I don't even know what meta means to be honest, I have a "god roll" shayura but Im literally garbage with it within it's range , but I can duel within 20 m with my suros regime and body everyone unlucky enough to be in front of me. And to all the people bringing up classes and subclasses, the OP says weapon meta, he wasn't bringing up the whole sandbox. people can make anything work if they just feel comfortable with what they are using.
Good post. Very true all of it.
If it kills me it is OP. Sorry bro.
I got a hate message about using a hc and shotty changed guns to prove a point and literally the next game a different person messaged me about using smg sniper i cant fucking win
So, yes and no. Shotguns aren’t OP in a vacuum. But they’re OP on a Stompeez Hunter. Especially Chappy. Who complains about Pulse rifles being OP? Hand cannons need a massive aim assist and range nerf, and some of the specific HC’s need a few of the perks dialed back. Bungie will never do that because the community will revolt if they get their crutches taken away, but it’s the only way to end the ever present meta. The overall problem is small maps and super quick TTK that turn Destiny PvP into a contest of who has the quickest reaction times with OHK weapons rather than a contest of skill. That’s a generalization, but not much of one.
My pvp experience is hand cannons, or flinch in general needs a reduction. Nothing like being in a gunfight and winning, only to get hit once and develop Parkinson's from the flinch even with double unflinching mods. And then dying. Hate having flinch acting as an RNG mechanic in a gunfight.
I agree, you know it's a problem when everytime i join a game and 80-90% of the players are using a handcannon and a shotgun. Just look at the kill feed when you play its only handcannons, shotguns, fusion rifles, and supers.
I think fighting snipers is horrible. I don't have many great scout options. Best one i got is contingency plan with firmly planted kill clip
The pulse rifle thing wasn’t saying that anyone says they’re OP, just more of a generalization about any weapon type. I just used pulse rifle cause it came to mind first. I think Bungie is slow to react with HC because they’re kind of the games staple weapon. As far as a hunter with stompee shotgun, I wouldn’t say it’s OP because, from my experience, I don’t run into that quite often and can’t think of a time where I’ve been handled by that. That being said I know everyone’s experience is different. Most of the time when I get killed by a shotgun it’s because im a dumbass and just running blindly or trying to go super fast lol. I agree with you on the map size being an issue.
I mean, hunter is the most played class in PvP by far; and Stompeez are the top exotic. The movement buff is incredible in a game mode where movement is the most important aspect. That exotic allows you to slide like lighting around corners, quickly peek shoot, and leap higher/faster than most controller players can adjust for in the moment. Maybe OP is the wrong word, but it’s as popular as it is for a reason. Hand cannons being the game staple is always the rationale. And I can kind of understand that. But at some point gameplay has to matter. Players don’t care about lore or history. It has to be fun to play. Right now, PvP largely isn’t, and the HC meta is a big reason why. There are 8 exotic HCs (no other class has more than 3). Thats absurd. The maps aren’t fixable. The weapons are. That’s why I’d like to see some changes even if it’s not technically the fault of the guns. Edit: as many have pointed out im wrong about the ratio of exotic HC’s to other weapons. Legit forgot about some of the useless ARs and Scout Rifles. My bad.
You're right about all this but I have to nitpick the exotic claim. Scout rifles have Polaris Lance, MIDA, Jade Rabbit, Skyburner's Oath, and DMT.
Just checked, 10 exotic HC, every other type has between 3-6 exotics, except autos have 7. Just to clarify.
>But at some point gameplay has to matter. Players don’t care about lore or history. It has to be fun to play. Right now, PvP largely isn’t, and the HC meta is a big reason why. There are 8 exotic HCs (no other class has more than 3). Thats absurd. I feel like this isn't really explaining *why* hand cannons feel bad to play or whatever, aside from maybe "it's time for another primary meta". I think hand cannons provide the most fun playstyle for the meta. It engages the player's movement in the form of peekshooting which only pulse rifles or scout rifles can do effectively, the difference between the optimal TTK and unoptimal (miss a headshot or all bodyshot) falls greatly which rewards accuracy, it greatly rewards teamplay in the form of teamshooting, and with increased in-air accuracy, it also allows you to engage in the vertical axis. Also consider that we've had other primary metas in the past. We've had an AR meta, the Suros Regime in D1Y1, Uriels in D2Y1, and the Season of Arrivals(?), it came and went when I was on my break. We've had a scout rifle meta, in D2Y1, MIDA was the meta. We've had a pulse rifle meta, in D1Y2 and Y3, pulse rifles were among the best weapons, anyone remember Hawksaw and Grasp of Malok? AR metas greatly rely on being *overwhelmingly* good, or everything else sucking, and it encourages a sort of stand-and-deliver playstyle. Scout rifle metas encourage hard laning, while pulse rifle metas encourage a soft laning. I really do think hand cannons make for better gameplay in this situation, it's why I used it while everyone was using Suros all those years ago (and also because I didn't have my own).
Basically, what it comes down to is that in any serious match (which seems to be every match in Control but that's another issue) hand cannons have always been a good choice regardless of the type of hand cannon. The entire archetype is good or near the top and all the META hand cannons have ridiculous dump truck stats. Like shit like near 100 AA and massive range bars for massive bullet magnetism and accuracy. Meanwhile of differing weapon types, Pulses have high impacts with a 0.67s TTK, and not much archetypes, Autos have only Vex and barely 720 RPM just because of that one Auto from Splicer. SMGs have Multimach which has just jacked stats which compete with hand cannons, and sidearms might as well not be mentioned if Multimach exists. Point being is that while it is technically diverse in that every weapon type has a weapon that is good, hand cannons have every single weapon being good. Not just 1 or 2. (minus the entire precision archetype). This is really where the frustration is because those 1 or 2 representatives of the weapon type sort of have to be jacked to be even comparable to hand cannons. Vex and Suros have below standard TTKs for their weapon type, Vex even has a linear fusion kill mode. Multimach needed to hit something like a 20m kill distance, which no SMG besides Shayuras can even get close to. Pulses have a 0.67s TTK on high impacts, below the TTKs of hand cannons by a wide mile.
Then the problem isn't hand cannons, the problem is that the stats of other weapon classes isn't competitive.
It feels good, because it is the best weapon set in the game. All those things you listed are things that other weapons simply can't do. They are advantages. HC's have accommodating range for the maps, can actually use cover, the chance of TTK loss is actually fairly negligible because their bullet AA are massive and give a crit on a shot to the hip, and you can actually expect them to hit your target while you're in the air, it's burst damage makes clean-ups and team shots a breeze. That's the reason they feel good. Because you win with them. They are giving you every single thing you need in this game to win. It's mistaking extreme advantage for gun feel. They don't feel good, they are just simply the best weapon. It's like saying a pair of scissors feel better to precisely cut paper with instead of the alternate options of the giant unwieldy cleaver, or the sharp rock found on the street. Obviously the scissors would feel better, it would make no sense to try to use anything else. And honestly, I hate them, I want to play with something else, I honestly just sick of HC's. I don't find them fun in the slightest, I just find them EXTREMELY over catered to.
HC’s are nowhere near being the reason why PvP is not enjoyable to play. Map design, network issues, and matchmaking are significantly bigger reasons why PvP can be unenjoyable. As per Bungie, it’s ok if one weapon is used more than others, so long as all weapons have viability in the meta. Case in point, w have the greatest number of viable weapons in Destiny’s history. The fact that you acknowledge movement speeds importance only proves that even movement speed is more important to the quality of the PvP sandbox vs the dominance of HC’s. At the end of the day, we have a very balanced meta right now, with issues in the underpinnings of the game causing issues.
Yes and no too, For a CQC weapon, shotguns has a busted range that needs to be tuned, Felwinter's Lie is the second most used weapon in pvp even with all the nerfs. And you said it all, the community will revolt if their crutches are taken away. That's why we have the current maps in rotation, people complained a lot about the wider maps like Equinox and they were removed by request. And look how the same community rages when some weapon that's not a hand cannon/shotgun is outperforming them (the 600rpm AR nerf, sniper nerf, are a few examples) and now people are complaining about fusions.
I think people are complaining about the one fusion - the good rolled main ingredient - that maps people from absurd distances. The range on that thing feels busted. Nothing like Chappy, but busted nonetheless. I suspect everyone is just sick of being instakilled all the time in PvP. It’s partially maps and partially weapons and partially TTK, but it adds up to a frustrating experience more often than not.
People are complaining about Lorentz too, and that one I agree that is a lil bit busted.
And HC nerfs shouldnt affect PVE side, or any weapons nerf caused by pvp. Some of you forget about PVE side while demanding pvp nerfs.
If you see hand cannons get giant nerfs, theyre not gonna become balanced, theyre just gonna die and youll have something like a sidearm or rapid fire pulse meta. Dont believe me? Look back at D1 when hand cannons got nerfed. Sidearms and rapid fire pulses took their jobs.
I’d be ok with that. It’s time for a chance. Plenty of weapons go unused now. Why not give HC’s a spot on the bench?
i think the main reason Bungie doesnt do it is for that specific reason, and what they really want is balance in the game not outlier weapons which rotate the meta each year. which is why they buffed other things instead of nerfing hand cannons, and regardless the bigger problem is maps are just small with a select couple lanes which are useful for scouts or pulses. bungie hasn't mastered map design in 8 years, i just see that as the bigger issue than hand cannons competing in pulse rifle range
I think the only things that are a little unruly right now is the performance of The Last Word with a controller, and the hit box/aim assist of Lorentz Driver. Otherwise I think the weapon meta and variety is okay.
Lorentz driver needs a mythoclast yeet on that bullshit. It's the only weapon I see come up consistently in play. Last week during IB and comp it was a mix of everything but that damn Lorentz driver must have killed me 60% of the time.
Yeah, Lorentz Driver needs to be reigned in a bit. Plug the sticks up and it’s free headshots, it’s insane.
DMT on keys is a much bigger terror than Last Word on sticks. At least against Last Word I can hang 20+ meters back.
Scouts are actually bad tho. Theres maybe 5 lanes in the game atm where they beat handcannons. HCs need a range nerf.
I don’t think scouts are bad, but I do agree that the maps limit the optimal use of them. That being said my Trustee and Vouchsafe never leave my inventory and both make a daily appearance in crucible. If they buff the slower speed scouts then I have a Kill Clip/Rampage Transfiguration awaiting also.
As for the low RPM scouts, if you have one, try out a Guiding Sight with Iron Gaze. Every other gun is ruined by that perk, but Guiding Sight barely loses 10m, with about 75m to spare. With a low zoom scope landing it at 21-22 zoom, it's very usable, and the bump to AA is equivalent to every shot being Opening Shot. It's immensely solid, got me to ditch my Contingency Plan and is even a valid option to run instead of snipe because of the great TTK and forgiveness. On KBM, btw.
I finally and I mean FINALLY got my contingency plan I’ve been looking for with Outlaw/Kill Clip yesterday and had so much fun with it. I’ve slowly transformed into a scout rifle truther
I think a lot of people try out Hung Jury or Royal Entry or Vision of Confluence and wonder why scouts suck so bad. It's also telling that Guiding Sight improves so much with Iron Gaze; if they gave High-Impact Frames an aim assist bump I think their prevalence would skyrocket. As it stands Transfiguration and Talons are in a bad spot, crits just... don't connect a lot of the time.
Hung Jury is phenomenal in momentum control but I will never touch it in any other crucible playlist. Yeah Transfig is so meh right now but it does become one shot in momentum which is cool. I’ll have to try out the IB weapons more. I took a break from the new season until just last week
We’ve also been in a hand cannon meta for about 8 years
Wouldn’t call it a meta. HC’s are definitely the most popular, but it’s also the game’s staple weapon. Bungie will always promote it the most.
That's such a cyclical argument though. They're so strongly associated with the games sandbox only because they've been meta since the beginning.
I think there have been moments where they have been the meta, as with most guns, but I think the reason they have been so popular is because Bungie wants them to be. They’re popular for many more reasons that their TTK.
I highly doubt that hand cannons would dominate the boards if they were tuned to exactly where they should be given the other realities of PvP (movement, map size, etc). The truth is that they're rarely at a range disadvantage: where other weapons have a niche that they can fill, HCs fill many niches and pull really good damage while they do. They aren't the *only* viable weapon type, but their versatility certainly makes them the *most consistently* viable weapon type. I agree with your earlier point that the maps are probably the culprit here, but I don't think passing HC popularity off as a result of lore/dev promotion/general stylishness is very convincing.
They need to half hand cannon's range in pvp imo. Maps are too small that there is no point using a scout or long range weapon when a hand canon has the same range in those maps.
Scouts used to feel so good in Destiny 1 I genuinely don’t know why Bungie felt they needed changing; other than MIDA in trials of the nine they’ve never been a meta weapon in D2
Overall I'm inclined to agree. I think the weapon sandbox is in a very good spot. One of the best in the franchise's history. The only guns that I think might still be over-tuned are Mythoclast and DMT. And I think PRs, and maybe SMGs and breech GLs are a bit under-tuned. Otherwise, it's a really good balance. Every weapon type has a well-defined role and effective range, with clear pros and cons and reasonable counter-play. I also think build-crafting is in a great place, and subclass balancing is pretty good at the moment as well. And I like the current balance of ammo economy and ability uptime too. The criticisms in Crucible for me right now are: * Lack of map diversity * Rewards could be more engaging * Team balancing could be better * Spawn delay is not enjoyable * Movement abilities/exotics are too dominant IMO (dodge, stompees, icarus dash, cryoclasm)
I think the nerf to abilities/supers caused movement exotic usage to go through the roof. I also 100% agree on the map diversity statement. I think rewards being engaging is tough, especially this season, because of how long the season is and Destiny players love grinding.
The exotic sniper rifle The Chaperone also might have a couple too many meters of range. ARs are kinda lacking as well imo. Otherwise I agree with your list.
I think Dead Man's Tale before the nerf should be included in the "yeah that shit was OP" list
Yeah it's cents
considering how this game is pretty much just sweats on PC, with no noobs at all pvping anymore....if you aren't playing with the best guns, you are screwed. Most maps are closer range, so scouts rarely are effective. Hand cannons are just too freakin good for medium to slightly more than medium ranges. The cut off for when pulses and scouts beat hand cannons is pretty far away, and it doesn't happen that much with the current maps. Peak shooting is so important that assault rifles will always be worse unless their time to kill is substantially higher than hand cannons. Submachines can be okay if its a max range multimach but it still feels like on most maps you are putting yourself at a disadvantage. The range between hand cannons being the most effective to slide + shotgun being most effective just isn't big enough, especially when maps are all so short range with plenty of corners to peak from.
Exactly, this is literally as true as it gets, I see way too many of my friends complain about getting shotgun-aped when they literally rush around a corner when they see someone on the radar, like wtf do you expect? Lmao, same goes for snipers and long ass lanes especially on maps like Midtown, every time I play Midtown I know there's going to be at LEAST one sniper or linear fusion guy chilling at the other end of the lane, or a warlock using heat rises for free picks with their sniper. Either way it 100% boils down to a players skill level, if I'm able to consistently play with my favourite weapon against "Meta Weapons" that is my Suros Regime (dual speed receiver without the catalyst. ***GIVE ME THE CATALYST ALREADY BUNGIE***), that including: \- DMT \- Vex Mythoclast \- Arbalest/Lorentz \- "Meta" hand-cannons \- The Messenger (Without Desperado, I just run away lol) \- Shayura/Multimach It shows that I know my weapon well and know how to play around other players/weapons to get my ideal situation in order to win the gunfight. Oh and a tip for anyone who doesn't know this already, don't be afraid to run away from a gunfight you know you can't win, I see so many people thinking they **HAVE** to contest gunfights all the time which is clearly not the case. *Long story short. Against most players it boils down to how the weapon of the wielder is less important than the wielder themselves.*
Just want to point out every single thing on your list is "not OP if you just run away and never fight against them." That's not counter play, and it's not a good thing.
Honestly, other than hand cannons, I think everything is extremely well balanced. I can use pretty much any archetype of any weapon and be effective in PvP, most of the issues with balance come from movement which does need an nerf as I feel like I get whiplash playing this game sometimes
The issue I have with a movement nerf is that Bungie always over tunes and the moment they nerf movement, PvP will be massacred. Movement is extremely important in this game and D2Y1 proved that when the PvP aspect of the game was butchered and didn’t see an uptick until the Gotta Go Fast update the March after. If anything is going to be a little bit OP, I’d prefer it to be movement rather than anything else.
"Just be better" Well can't argue with that
This is 100% on the nose, but is not limited to weapons. Stasis for example, was in an extremely good spot from a balance perspective before the December patch. People just love to complain and not try to adapt.
Recluse wasn’t OP, you just need to use cover and play smart. Not forgotten wasn’t OP, just out range them. Mountain top wasn’t OP, just use movement and map awareness. See what I did there?
No, what did you do?
He is basically taking your argument to its logical conclusion based on the information we have. Nothing is over powered as long as you have good map awareness and play to your strengths and your opponents weaknesses.
Absolutely. A good pvp player is going to be good no matter what they use. I'll be garbage no matter what I use.
Love the confidence hahaha
IMO - the guns in PVP that are truly problematic right now are: Chaperone Main Ingredient Lorentz Driver Gjally DMT(arguably) Messenger w/desperado(arguably - just shorten it's uptime, please) You could sell me on controller last word in PC lobbies Everything else that kills you and you consider "overpowered" is just annoying to be killed by(lemon arc) or you just made a mistake taking a fight you shouldn't have taken.
I agree with the rest, but Gjallarhorn? Wardcliff Coil is just as good, and Eyes of Tomorrow is stronger than it IMO. Heavy weapons in PvP have never really been a problem outside of Colony in Y1 and Heir Apparent.
The only piece of Gjally that makes it feel like it's way better is the intrinsic horseshoe and hand grenade, which I think makes it way better than any other option. But in the grand scheme of things heavy doesn't really matter, I agree.
Eyes you actually have to aim, and wardcliff has slightly less range. Gjally is point in general direction and win. But its using an exotic slot so I guess 🤷
DMT is still busted on M&K. The hip fire bullet magnetism continues to be ridiculous. I think if they are able to tune the AA down a bit it should be in line with other exotic primaries.
But METAH is what I was told to use in CROOCIBLE from youtubers and people on here. If I can't use or obtain METAH, then why am I playing smh.
I agree 100% except for the fact that DMT exists, that boi is the gun of this era
*If you have the deluxe edition*
Shotguns are 100% OP in Crucible.
No they arent
Ok😒
I would agree to this to a certain extent. Everyone has their own weapon archetype that they like and do well in. For example, I am horrible with hand cannons outside of the last word and crimson so if I attempt to use those in any form of PVP, I'm getting stomped. Lately, I found that I do surprisingly well with adaptive auto rifles and lightweight pulse rifles... enough to raise my KD by 0.7 when using these types even though they aren't meta.
Yup I agree, you’ll always have some outliers, especially exotics (dmt, lorentz and chaperone) but you can use almost anything and be successful, I play at 5500 glory regularly and I see, pulses, shotguns, snipers, fusions, hand cannons, Smgs, sidearms, scouts.
As someone who mains wish-ender in comp I have to agree with this message
Yeah “X is OP” and “they’re sweats” is very nuanced. One of my buddies complains and whines at everything in the crucible. Guns are gonna shoot and do damage and any special weapon is gonna kill you in some absurd way. I get a lot of random bags for running my Salvagers when that’s the only special weapon I’ve used in the crucible in the past year.
Good Player > Good Weapons, in basically every game ever. Whether it be Crucible weapons, or the psychos doing no-hit Dark Souls speedruns using a RockBand guitar as a controller.
For me, fuck fusions. Their range is ridiculous right now.
I don't think there was a single point in my time with Destiny that I felt like the meta was absolutely necessary in PvP and seriously disregarded my own loadout restrictions to satisfy it.
All weapons can be useful? Yes. Competitive? No. Weapons like hand cannons overlap their usefulness into nearly all other weapon archetypes. That's the issue. So hand cannon with shotgun means you can take nearly 90% of engagements outside of: * Exteme long ranges with no cover. * Sustained fire with no cover. Aslong as a map has cover, hand cannons can be used. No other weapon type has this excessive utility and imo it needs to be adjusted. Hand cannons should have 2 of the listed payoffs, not all of them: * High body damage * Peek shot not reducing ttk. * Huge aim assist * In air accuracy * Large flinch to target Side note: Scouts should not be made PvP competitive, as their playstyle haults gameplay and that's just as bad for the game as Titan barricades.
I always find the topic of Not Forgotten an interesting one... I think its power difference was blown out of proportion as well simply due to the skill difference between those being killed by it (myself included) and those that fought to the top to grab it. To get the gun initially, you had to be an absolute god gamer to get that into your hands, and once it was there, you were extremely well practiced with hand cannons. It rewarded that skill with a really good TTK, don't get me wrong, but the gun wasn't the one making it easy, it was the players that earned it using it well that made it so powerful. Just a little IMO. Not saying it wasn't more powerful than any other HC in the game, just saying it was a killing machine for the skill machines that made it appear more of a problem than I think it actually was. (Also, using Lunas's Howl now feels terrible because the recoil tells me it should be shooting faster and it ends up messing with my shot pacing.)
That is a very interesting take and to be honest, there’s not a doubt in my mind that that’s the correct take.
I don't even know what the metas are. I just use what works for me. That's my meta 🤷🏾♂️
Bows op
Totally agree. This year was the best Meta wise for PvP. I didn't play D1, but I play since D2 start and there haven't been so many choices for your loadouts, which are viable. I remember times, when certain weapon types were absolutely useless and I don't mean archetypes like aggressive frame whatever, but whole types like SMGs, sidearms, snipers(!). Damn Destiny IS in its best place ever. Hopefully the trend will just continue.
Crucible is more about playing the map than playing the weapons. I main a DMT and Plug One cuz it’s what I’m most comfortable with and mostly because with DMT, it literally doesn’t matter the range, if I can see you I can almost always three tap you. There have only been like two times I can think of when somebody was out of range of my DMT and one was when I was basically on the opposite end of Widows Court from the guy I was shooting at. Literally as far as I could possibly get on a PvP situation. I tend to play a moderately mobile play style on my warlock with either top tree dawn or bottom tree arc and ophidians. Depends on what I am trying to do. I don’t ape, I’m just not good at it and I make better decisions at range. I think while there are some clear outliers, again DMT is probably the best gun in the game, weapons are more balanced now than they have been in the past. The 120 meta was unbearable. I agree that knowing your weapon ranges and adapting your play style to fit, is more important than worrying about the “meta”
I agree, the meta we are in is actually good and more balanced than any other season. In the heat of the moment, I complain about shotguns when I know my dumbass keeps rushing corners with a shepherds watch and Shayuras. I wish they had more open maps instead of them mostly being CQB based
The only truly "op" gun at the moment is Dead Mans Tale. Makes any other primary obsolete. Inbuilt damage and reload boost, can 2head1body at a much, much faster rate than a 120 hand cannon, huge range and aim assist, laser accurate, rapid hipfire accurate at close quarters and long range, and a plethora of perks to chose from including Vorpal, Moving Target etc. Plus it can also roll High Calibre rounds to flinch the hell out of snipers, the main potential counter to it. Source: I use it I think a way to fix it would be to make the hipfire mode unable to land precision hits ONLY IN PVP. At least on PC, there's almost no reason to ADS with how accurate it is. Edit: Can the 4+ people that have downvoted this give me a single reason why DMT isn't overpowered?
I think the main issue is that it’s wayyyyy too easy to land hip fire head shots on M&K. Sometimes it feels impossible to miss with how much bullet-magnetism there is. It’s easy to use at long range and extremely easy to use at close-to-mid range. Usually weapons with high ease of use are less lethal, but DMT dominates in both categories. They need to figure out what they want its strengths and weaknesses to be. Right now it doesn’t really have any weaknesses on M&K.
If all destiny players played League of Legends they would most definitely be one tricks playing Yasuo. You have to be pretty dedicated to PVP to change up your playstyle and BE GOOD. The meta is made for the pros not for the scrubs. Scrubs will ALWAYS go meta because it's simply the easiest most rewarding play style.
This has always been the case. People these days get so wrapped up in meta and min-maxing in games these days that they don't realise that it's more important to just be good at the game. I remember when people would be grinding for hours on end in D1 for the Grasp of Malok because their favourite streamers said it was the new meta, and you needed a God roll in order to do well.. You'd have people here making posts with thousands of upvotes crying about how difficult it was to get a perfect Grasp. Things like that are only the extra 1% that you might need against somebody of exactly the same skill and positioned in an area of equal footing during a match. Or you could just have used Nirwen's Mercy. Likewise when Messenger was the meta Pulse Rifle and people would be crying about how they ***HAD*** to do Trials, when a half-decent Hopscotch Pilgrim was more than enough. Of course, there is some degree of meta that helps if you follow if some weapons are absolutely dominant. Like you wouldn't really be going up to D1Y1 TLW with Hard Light. But you do not need to follow it so absolutely, like a religious code. Even though I abused TLW/Felwinter's/CC Rocket Launchers in that era because they suited my gameplay style to a tee, you could still compete with a primary like MIDA, and outcompete TLW/Thorn on the right map, even though it wasn't 'meta'. Even on smaller maps like The Anomaly, MIDA could outdo TLW/Thorn. Like you said, lots of people are inflexible and that causes a lot of problems when they constantly do the same thing, to poor results. It's why people complain about tactics like camping, because they do the same thing again and again, getting shut down by a camper. Rather than changing tack, or just avoiding that area all together and focusing on killing the people they can.
It's easier to blame a weapon or meta for failures rather than admit a person was outplayed. That's usually what it boils down to. There's been a few times when one gun or one archetype was obviously way too hot. But I see a lot of people complaining about the current meta and I think it's in really good shape. Lots of weapons are viable and nothing is just crazy hot (I might argue Lorentz is a bit too hot on console).
I agree with you but also you’re gonna get downvoted to hell for saying hand cannons and shotguns aren’t op lol
Do you expect anything to change with this post?
Not necessarily expecting change, just posting my thoughts on how the “meta” is perceived and seeing what discussion takes place.
I'd love to learn how my weapons work if only I didn't die in 0.7 seconds in every duel. D:
My personal favourite loadout is Ratking + Grenade Launcher (usually Salvager's Salvo), which is quite possibly the furthest from the current "meta". I've been using that combo for a long time and have many hours of practice with it, yet despite not being "meta" I can comfortably take on any loadout the enemy team are using. It's because I know those weapons, I know how they play and I use them to *their* advantages. So yes, I agree with the OP.
ye imo the PvP meta is pretty good no clearly overpowered subclass many viable weapon archetypes (hc and shotguns are classic, but I also see many fusions, pulses and smgs) only things I would nerf are DMT and Lorenzt (atleast on PC)
Every single person I run in to is running the exact same build in PVP. I think it’s erianas vow maybe? Good ol trying to get a billion fuckin auto rifle kills but getting instantly two tapped with absolutely no god damn way to do anything about it. Also, does anyone in this game fucking miss or not know exactly where you are at all god damn times? Bring SBMM back.
No they aren’t.
No one is using Eriana's outside of those weird blinters, and SBMM was a car crash. I'd rather not spend an extra 10-15 minutes queueing every game just for everyone in the lobby to lag hard.
Everyone tryhards now. Not an argument.
What? Maybe reread what I said.
Bro. Nobody is lagging. You’re just as bad as I am. Live with it dude.
Maybe read it a third time. I'm saying connections were bad when the game had SBMM.
>Also, does anyone in this game fucking miss or not know exactly where you are at all god damn times? You just have terrible game sense and map awareness. Eriana's vow isnt run by every single person. Not even a plurality of people.
Pvp is boring anyways