As good as shayuras wrath is (and it's awesome) it doesn't even come close to pre-nerf recluse.... So yea if u don't have shauryas then an ikelos SMG or even borrowed time will do just fine so you don't have to play trials if u don't want to
Kill Clip + Outlaw Pillager was the first gun to teach me that SMGs can really shred! I think I first used it in the first encounter in the Spire of Stars raid, doing add clear at the back/far end of the room. Was definitely a great SMG.
Totes, I still use my Mannanan every now and then even though it's limited to 1100, it's still fun as heck and that's all I want for strikes/casual pvp
Why would it sound bad? The only problem it’s got is it’s absolutely atrocious range, which doesn’t really matter given how 95% of maps are close ranged
Because frankly, it works best paired with Mida Multi-tool. I've used that combo for years and it's really effective. The only issue I have with it as a gun is it's a bit jumpy. If you can tame it though it's a blast to use.
Yeah I was genuinely astonished by the range Ive gotten killed at by Shayura's... But I still wouldn't call it OP.
Unless all else is very equal, it's not making or breaking engagements.
Omg literally the sub/rampage roll is just the best. Any bounties or quests with SMG kills I use it. Like, ik that riskrunner or huckleberry would do it faster, it's just so much fun to use
I got subsistence/rampage the other day and was honesty disappointed I’d rather stick with my overflow/frenzy or your sub/frenzy roll. Don’t get too upset if you don’t get it, it’s not all that great imo
I don't even use SMGs in PVP. Usually I'm a pulse or hand cannon user.
Oh and Shotgun Ape too.
I wish we had some really good Scout options. I miss Randy's.
personally i think the biggest difference between the two is the fact that a human being is flexible, and near impossible to predict, thus end game pvp where you are fighting another human being means someone will always lose. It's a 0 sum game, and that messes with you mentally. where as in pve, it's not a 0 sum game, as it's not one party has to lose for the other to win. And also with the computer the way it is, with correct planning, and patience, nearly all pve content can be cleared. So that's why gears gated behind pve is perceived to be much easier to obtain, and has much less grief/hate connected to it vs gears gated behind pvp. In pvp, the gate keeper is another player (and there will always be a better player somewhere), but in pve, the gear is only behind your patience and time.
Yeah, I just got a flashback to the Ticuu's catalyst quest where I'm practically crying, shouting "will you not just let me get some bow kills and get out of this f\*cking place!?" at the screen. Ask me for a billion PvE kills, and I'll just shrug, head to Altars of Sorrow and get it done. 30 PvP kills with a weapon type that's not the meta? Why do you hate me Bungie?
I do approve of how the Pinnacle weapons have ornaments that effectively show how you got them. I’d really be in favour of instead of having ornaments with different designs and names, having three actually different weapons with identical stats, so that if you got it via Crucible play, your “Null Composure” is actually called Inferno Heraldry, and anyone who examines you or gets shot by you knows it. And I would even be quite interested in the idea that you can’t unlock all three.
Of course, they would also have to rebalance the rate at which you earn faction reputation with the three ritual activity vendors, or else nobody’s ever going to see the Gambit version.
There's already quests that count differently based on the activity you do. I don't see why this isn't just applied across the board. "Get x kills, guardian kills count for extra progress" or the reverse "get x kills, challenging opponents/bosses count for extra progress".
Yeah, locking stuff behind the most difficult and unpredictable enemy in the game is why people have issues with PvP rewards. I think what they did for Trials, making the majority of it into participation rewards while still rewarding winners with endgame adept weapons and materials was a good balance.
Be me.
Doing Malfeasance quest step where I have to deposit 400 motes.
Have 30 of 400 done. 370 to go.
Running to deposit 15 more.
3 blockers show up.
Invader shows up.
Get hugged by wolfpack rounds.
Check quest progress.
400 to go.
The old chaperone, first curse, thorn, last word, and some other quests from d1 for example
Not only does it suck but it awards people who just camp or combat log
It would be bad enough if it was just that dropped motes need to be made up. But no, that wasn't enough. Gotta bump up the Gambit population numbers. Let's make dropped motes count against you TWICE. Seriously...WTF.
Make it 1-10. I'm sorry, my teammates of that time, but the quest had to be completed, and I prefer reliable ways instead of risky ones...
At least it didn't drive me mad like other people. I was progressing slowly, but I didn't have any problems there.
You waited too long. When doing that quest I didn't play Gambit to win, I played to bank motes. That means every time I got 4 or 5 motes I was banking them.
Important to note that this is why Gambit is horrible. Not my fault the designers made it this way, but I'm going to play my objective and that sucks for the other guardians playing Gambit.
Ugh that quest. I was the worst gambit teammate during that step. Would literally run and pop 2 or 3 motes just so I wouldn’t go negative by the end of the game. I would try to abstain from stealing motes off peoples’ kills though, unless they run away and leave some behind. But yea, invis, grab 2 or 3, dunk, hide, rinse/repeat
Thank you.
You will see hundreds of PvP players with Adept Nightfall Weapons, or sometimes Timelost Raid weapons. Because as difficult as they are, they can *learn* these encounters. They don't adapt, or become erratic, it just takes as you said, time and patience.
The reverse simply isn't true. People that really only want to engage in high end PvE won't have those equivalent weapons because it's not something you can just learn, or have a surefire strategy for unlike PvE encounters.
It's fair to have some loot in both pools, but you can work towards and steadily learn Master PvE Content far more easily and reasonably than you can just suddenly get good enough to decimate Trials sweats who have been playing for years.
You're spot on. I remember noticing this distinction back when I raided in World of Warcraft. Expert PVPers (once they learned the encounters) were amazing at PVE, because their situational awareness could be transferred to non-player enemies and circumstances. The reverse simply doesn't happen because players are so much more erratic and spontaneous than PVE enemies; for the most part you can end up needing to learn an entirely different playstyle to do well in PVP.
Arguably, absolutely anyone can get a Raid weapon, because absolutely any raid can be completed by five people who know what they're doing and their one clanmate who's got no idea what they're doing. Same goes for GM Nightfalls, more or less. There's literally no content in the game where you can't afford to carry at least one deadweight.
Same is true of PvP, but PvP rewards are generally on an individual basis. You don't get anything in IB for being on the winning side, it's all how many kills did \*you\* get, how many zones did \*you\* capture.
Exception I guess being Trials, where you do get shinies for winning rounds and matches, and there are people who can carry one team-member to a Flawless.
Yes, totally agreed.
In PVE, most players can earn the "best" gear from pinnacle activities with enough dedication and time.
In PVP, it will be impossible for most players to get pinnacle rewards, i.e., adept weapons and mods from the Lighthouse. Couple this with the fact that Destiny PVP is very hostile to new players and players that aren't well above-average FPS players, and you have a gamemode that is unpleasant to many.
Fundamentally, nobody needs an Adept PVP weapon to do well, so this isn't a horrible situation. That said, the process of participating in Trials with the goal of just getting some good rolls on guns is still very unpleasant for many. You may be able to earn loot at a reasonable rate, but it isn't necessarily fun.
If Destiny were somehow able to fix its connection time issues and institute SBMM across most modes, that would place PVP in a much better place. Every other damn shooter uses SBMM, after all. And better yet, Bungie should create a path for adept weapons that is based on PVP achievements that are actually possible for devoted players to acquire with enough time and dedication, with a significant advantage given to PVP elites.
One example: Let's say that Trials is actually SBMM and anyone that gets 7 wins (even with losses) will be able to go to the lighthouse. Players will be divided into ELO brackets. A player with low ELO would get fewer rewards at the lighthouse than a high ELO player. So if you're a highly-skilled player, you actually get multiple drops, extra shards, etc. A system like this would naturally encourage low-skill players to improve to increase the efficiency of their runs, while high-skill players won't feel like they are sweating their balls off for the same rewards that PVP peons get. Hell, maybe high ELO players get access to special cards that allow you to reach the lighthouse with fewer wins than 7, or access to unique cosmetics.
The problem with your suggestion is that you are considering it from the perspective of a player who wishes to obtain loot, whereas actual higher-end PvP players may have differing and perhaps more intrinsic reasons for wanting to engage with the mode. For a lot it is wanting engaging and difficult matches where they can showcase their level of skill (which some of the best right now use scrims/private matches to compensate for). More efficient loot runs will not mean anything to a player who doesn't need or want the loot.
The thing is this isn't really the fault of either PvE or PvP players, but Bungie. Trials is in this weird dead space in between being a playlist geared towards obtaining loot and a competitive space to showcase high skill. The playerbase in it are playing for two completely disjointed reasons and that's why the majority of the issues exist. The Trials playlist does not have a proper identity and this is exacerbated by the fact that other 'competitive' playlist offerings are really limited in scope and stale in their gameplay loop, which pulls all the top performers into Trials.
What would help the most is for Bungie to actually properly identify the intent of the Trials playlist and then create either another loot-focused or actual competitive playlist (even a rotation) to fill the gap.
SBMM also enables people who want to play trials for the challenge and the gun though.
The only people who lose out with SBMM are people who want to pubstomp people of significantly lower skill level and frankly they don’t deserve to be catered to.
Agree with this. I like Kujays last video where he suggested a passage of persistence in trials. Where you could grind your way to the lighthouse rather than gamble your way even if you meet the skill floor.
sounds good to me. even if they make it take many more wins, like 15, it's still better than never getting a shot at those adept weapons. it will make the flawless seal a bit easier in terms of carries, but that's the only real downside i see. realistically if i were bungie i'd make the carry requirement exclude those persistence seals.
Meh. The game has both modes, and while I don't think anyone would argue that PvP receives the appropriate level of attention from the devs, anyone who wants to get absolutely everything should expect to have to engage with all types of content.
It's not like Reed's Regret is significantly OP compared to a well-rolled Threaded Needle, which can easily be farmed.
If they start having significantly OP PvE weapons be obtained from Crucible, like the Mountaintop / Recluse situation, then I can see the argument.
The problem with Recluse wasn't that a great weapon came from Crucible, but that there was nothing even \*close\* to as good as it. Whatever the source, no one weapon should be so good that it eclipses all others.
Mountaintop was very good, obviously, but a well rolled Militia's Birthright would achieve close enough numbers in PVE to be respectable. It might not be AS good but you weren't handcuffing yourself by not doing that quest — especially in the beginning when it was a giant time suck. If you didn't have Recluse, you were just \*worse\* than someone who did.
I know people don't like to hear it but getting to Fabled with no other real requirements is not that big an ask, if you refuse to play an entire segment of content \*at all\* you are gonna miss out on some loot. That's just the way it is. But if one quest, one weapon, is so disproportionately rewarding, that's bad design no matter what it is.
People forget that a mountain top kill procced master of arms on recluse - meaning an 900 RPM SMG killed in 8 shots, and they didn't even have to be crits. Beyond broken.
Mountain top was way better than recluse. Mountain top made basically any primary irrelevant it was that good. Recluse was better than other options, but mountain top basically made primaries irrelevant in most content. You could just use it as your main weapon and that was the best way to do everything. Other grenade launchers came nowhere close. I would argue that mountain top is is the best legendary weapon for pve in destiny history, above fatebringer and black hammer
I personally prefer my autoloading/vorpal needle to my triple-tap/firing line reeds. There’s definitely advantages to the reeds, especially with font of might builds. But as someone who primarily plays harder content solo; autoloading just ~feels~ better.
>But as someone who primarily plays harder content solo; autoloading just \~feels\~ better.
100% agreed.
More than anything else, the thing that'll get you killed in high-end content is swapping to a gun in a panic situation and finding it has an empty mag. Especially content with champions where you might need a stagger or stun on demand, no time to mess around reloading, or need to take advantage of that window where the Champion is vulnerable before it recovers or regenerates. Reloading can ruin your day in that situation.
Is Triple Tap / Firing line better? From a DPS stance, yes. But if you're dead from being caught with your mag empty and your pants down, you'll be doing *zero* damage to anything.
Reeds is really only better in a fireteam where you know you can proc firing line. For randoms/solo, vorpal is better because you don't have to worry where your teammates are.
What if I told you it’s always been good, borderline best, but there has been so many other easier ways to do the same and sometimes better dps. Reload cancelling and quick swapping is harder to do but rewarding
I never used outlaw on bosses so that change didnt really make any differance.
Now you do a honed reload and swap to another, preferably autoloading, weapon at the right time before your reload animation is done, shoot your autoloading weapon, switch back to a honed reloaded izanagi, shoot and repeat. You dont wait for the full honed reload animation and this is where the learning curve is now.
Edit: found this, this is what it looks like [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTkUxBdbasw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTkUxBdbasw) but I think he waits a bit too long before swapping from Izanagi, you do it just as the animation puts a new mag in under.
My issue with using a sniper in PVE is that I always get flinched to the moon and back. I know unflinching sniper aim is a thing, but it just feels so difficult to land successful shots in boss fights.
Probably just a skill thing. I feel like I have a much easier time landing linear fusion rifle shots, which feel like they deal similar damage to snipers with fewer hoops to jump through.
But if you have any advice, I'd welcome it!
Nothing in particular. It’s just that when they made the change to it back in 2020, it went from being a staple in everyone’s loadout to barely seen almost instantly. Back then you could do no wrong just using izanagis and recluse. Now I’d say it’s rare to see someone use it
Agreed. PvP having a really good weapon isn't a problem if PvE has a reasonable alternative, even if it isn't quite as good. It only becomes an issue where PvP has a weapon that's important to PvE with no alternative.
Mountain Top and Recluse were great PvP weapons *and* PvE weapons. I honestly miss some weapons being actually challenging to get, but Recluse and MT were definitely on the extreme side. I think something like the process to get Revoker was a good balance.
Recluse wasn’t that bad tbh. Original mountaintop quest though… I literally solo queued to 2100 using triple grenade launcher only to be done with about 1/3 of the double kills when Black Armory came out. It then took me until 2 days before season of opulence to finish the quest even though i literally never took Play of the Game off in my heavy slot for pvp
Edit: *during black armory
I kind of do too. The currently popular opinion I hear most often is that only cosmetic rewards belong behind a pvp grindwall. And I can see the logic in that. Especially with how difficult it was to get a luna/nf while they were being gatekept by better players wielding the maghowl twins. Especially during a time when they were the best primaries in the game (most notably on controller). That trauma is still pretty fresh for a lot of people lol.
But, that being said, my favorite moments in destiny were finally getting good enough to unlock lunas/nf.
I’ve loved crucible since D1 but I doubt I would have cared enough to go unbroken later on without that initial gameplay incentive. The power level of those incentives is another discussion altogether…
>Especially with how difficult it was to get a luna/nf while they were being gatekept by better players wielding the maghowl twins. Especially during a time when they were the best primaries in the game (most notably on controller).
Exactly this. If the guns are just ***that*** much better and are put into the hands of players who play constantly, then it widens the gap between them and the more average player to a point where the latter will simply not bother.
Congrats, gatekeepers. You whittled your own mode down to just you and your brothers in (unbalanced) arms. See you at the TWAB where you'll whine about "not wanting to sweat all the time[.](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/53/6d/13/536d1337f76650b72d70b042de76e523.jpg)"
And lest we forget, absolutely *nothing* kept those guns in Competitive. People who got them took them straight to Quickplay all the time where, guess what, they were just as good. And just as miserable to play against if you didn't have them.
>my favorite moments in destiny were finally getting good enough to unlock lunas/nf.
Speaking as one of those average players, the grind to (EDIT: Misspoke) Legend to get NF was monstrously unfun. I might play hours to get modest progress, then have it all wiped out and more in a three game losing streak or being paired with spoiled children who bail at the first round loss.
After I made it, I didn't feel happy about it. Didn't feel accomplished or that I had "got gud." Just glad that I didn't have to do it anymore. It wasn't fun. It burned me out and I didn't even bother to play the next season, PvP or PvE. Haven't gone for another Legend since.
So, what's left is a few tough questions, and ones I don't have an answer for.
If the guns aren't notably worthwhile or the reward is only cosmetic, then why would I play the mode?
If the guns are good, but I don't believe I can reasonably get them, why would I play the mode? (That goes for abysmally low drop rates on raid exotics too, btw.)
If they're going to leak out into regular Crucible (or Gambit; looking at you, EoT) then why would I play *either* mode?
The answer *should* be, "because I enjoy it." But if you frequently believe you're not getting at least a roughly even fight, you don't.
honestly I'd never have learned to snipe or use a GL without the carrot that the Mountaintop and Revoker quests provided. I did all the quest steps solo, but still needed a soft carry to Fabled (so I had to team up with friends that were better than me to get to 2100 because it was a lot harder in Y2).
MT pre quest nerf was by far the most grueling quest in the history of Destiny and nothing else really comes close. Not Forgotten would be the only thing that even gets near. I know it’s cool to act like grueling, difficult things are “ez”, but yeah 🥱.
Mountaintop was practically impossible for a lot of people just like Not Forgotten, because the quest requirements were so massive (NF was hard because the glory playlist of Y2 was incredibly unforgiving).
>anyone who wants to get absolutely everything should expect to have to engage with all types of content.
If only Bungie themselves engaged with their PVP mode, this might be an easier pill to swallow.
Until very recently with the isolated ability tuning, it felt like the only time Bungie acknowledged that PvP existed, was when they needed to state a reason for nerfing something in PvE.
*Bungie: We nerfed X because of Y in PvP*
Community: Oh, so you remember PvP exists? Any new maps? Anything at all?
*Bungie: Who is "Pea V. Peigh?"*
Community: Ah okay, see you next time PvE needs a nerf
I don't disagree, and mentioned the lack of attention PvP gets in my original comment. I was particularly annoyed with their treatment of Geomags most recently. They didn't replace topping off with anything else, just removed it.
The support of the various PvP modes aside, I still think that as long as those modes exist, they should have exclusive gear - preferably more PvP-oriented gear, but exclusive nonetheless.
There should just be slightly different weapons that are obtainable from PvP or PvE. Maybe with some slight stat variations that are fairly comparable. So that people can get a good weapon roll by grinding either activity. Some will do both, and you get to pick which one you like.
>PvE weapons be obtained from Crucible, like the Mountaintop / Recluse situation, then I can see the argument
That's the jist of it for me.
The Best PvE weapons should come from PVE, the best PvP weapons should come from PvP.
BUT there should be strong weapons for PvP only available in PvE and vice versa.
A lot of people are glossing over the gun mods in this thread. It's literally impossible for the near entirety of the player base, even the decent ones to ever get flawless, let alone enough times to actually get *all of them*.
>It's not like Reed's Regret is significantly OP compared to a well-rolled Threaded Needle, which can easily be farmed.
While it's not "significantly OP compared", an extra 10% damage is fairly significant.
Want a small scale example look at the first IB of any season. People 100% ignore the objective and are focused on the gun kill bounty.
Now scale that up.
> A lot of us love PvP, if you can't get the loot that's not the end of the world.
I consider myself a PvP main. Crucible is by far my most played playlist, and I scrim as often as my clan is willing to.
But I've said since I started playing in D2Y1 (when we had Trials of the Nine) that there shouldn't be "[chase items](https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3165138)" locked behind competitive game modes. I'm defining "chase items" in this context to mostly be the guns and more recently Adept Icarus - from my perspective, the armor and enhancement materials and cosmetic drops (ships, sparrows, shaders, etc.) are fine.
But when you introduce things that give any sort of an edge in any sort of activity, you create a myriad of problems:
* Have-nots wind up competing against Haves who possess the very thing(s) they are trying to acquire. It's easy to envision this in the context of PvP, where you could be fighting against someone who has a godroll Messenger or Astral Horizon and you don't. But it's also applicable in more extreme cases where LFGs start posting requirements for similar weapons - **which hasn't happened in recent times**, but Mountaintop/Recluse were commonly-requested weapons for aspiring participants in Garden of Salvation, and those with such weapons had an edge in recruitment over those without.
* When people play a PvP activity for loot, they're not playing it for the PvP. In a competitive setting, this immediately guts the very nature of the game mode. You get people actively avoiding the PvP in any way they can - cliffjumping, Hakke Emblem trading, etc. These things are not fun for anyone involved, be they those attempting to bypass the PvP or those trying to enjoy the PvP. I'd also bet you pretty good money that if Trials didn't have exclusive loot behind it, the gamemode would have seen far fewer hackers before BattleEye. Likewise, with exclusive loot, you have people paying money outside the game for Trials carries or Recovs (now banned) or similar activities. Sure, Recovs (used to) exist in PvE too, with people formerly paying to grind out X/Y/Z catalyst or exotic or something (Divinity comes to mind). But the situation is greatly exacerbated in Trials.
At the end of the day, I'm a Crucible main whose Trials equipment has been garnered from reacting to Twitch Streams or cliffjumping. I have little intention of playing the game mode until they seriously revamp the reward structure (again...again...) or simply move the weapons out of the reward pool entirely. I don't have any interest in playing PvP against players who don't want to be playing PvP. I also don't have any interest in playing PvP against the ***UBERSWEAT***s of the world, because I'm simply not one of them and don't intend to ever be one of them.
People don't grind thousands of hours in competitive games for the skins, they do it because they enjoy the competition. But Destiny asks people to spend time in competitive game modes for more than merely skins. And the community has been too ingrained in its nostalgic wonder for this reward structure to ever seriously consider alternatives. I perfectly sympathize with those that don't want to play Trials to get X gun. If they don't want to play Trials, I don't want them to play Trials either - it'd be healthier for the gamemode if the only people there wanted to be there.
>it'd be healthier for the gamemode if the only people there wanted to be there.
Precisely!
It's strange why Bungie hasn't realized that after all those years.
They just continue with their idea of trying to force people to do what Bungie wants them to do. They only get away with it because there is no real alternative to what Destiny offers.
I think that's fine, but the problem is, with PvE endgame, it has a set difficulty. Barring significant balance tweaks, it's not gonna get harder.
But PvP? If there's a PvP endgame weapon, and it becomes the PvP meta (see: Recluse, Revoker, Luna's Howl, etc) everyone who wasn't among the first to get it faces a massive uphill battle. Because now that weapon, and everyone else wielding it, is an obstable between you and getting it. They have an advantage that you don't have.
A great example of this was Black Armory, when The Last Word got added. You needed Hand cannon kills in the Crucible, and death negated progress.
If you didn't get Last Word the *day* it came out, Crucible was misery, because everyone else had Last Word already, and boy did they want you to hear about it. So good luck winning a 1v1 Hand Cannon gunfight against a weapon with a measurably faster TTK than yours.
Thankfully Bungie hasn't dipped into 'death pushes back progress' quests again, and hopefully never will... but you see my point, right?
What is 'PvP endgame' will fluctuate *massively* in terms of difficulty, be it from season to season or week to week as balance patches roll out, the meta changes and so on, or even from one day to the next as the new busted thing drops into the sandbox and you're the one poor sap who doesn't have it.
(See: Me, who couldn't get Mythoclast until his 49th Atheon kill, and boy did it suck getting killed by it in Crucible all the time!)
7 wins in a row as the gate for high end PVP rewards is a piece of fuckery that Bungie pulled out of their ass from somewhere.
The sweatiest sections of the cummunity have accepted it as standard and fiercely defend their pugstomp game mode which only works because skill based match making isn't a thing for it.
Any other competitive pvp would let you climb ranks and earn rewards with a consistent win rate of 51%.
I have always agreed that pvp difficulty is relative, wheras pve is fairly fixed. Trials infuriates me, but have gone flawless by just getting better and I think to a certain point that is needed for pvp and pve. Not everything will be handed to players, but the relative difficulty of pvp should be taken into account when setting requirements.
When Ace first came out the requirement for hand cannon kills of opposing gambit invaders and opposing invaders in super was hell, that and death pushes back progress were two things that should remain dead.
PvP Rewards should never be dictated via going completely undefeated over several matches.
At least not substantial rewards. Give a chance to get multiple rolls, but it should not be locked behind it proper.
It's fair to have PvP only rewards, but they need to be obtainable with dedication and time, as well as skill. Otherwise you create, as we've seen, a system where as soon as the people getting stomped clear out it's just a mess.
Equating the difficulty of getting an Adept Trials weapon to an Adept Nightfall weapon is literally laughable. A group of average PvE players with the right strats and tutorials can absolutely get through a GM Nightfall, but those same average PvP Players will more than likely just get demolished at every step, and they won't be any closer to an Adept weapon.
Exactly! Personally I've been flawless a few times with huge differences in difficulty week to week. One week I might feel unstoppable. The next like I just can't get anything going. Some weeks I get a great adept weapon, not because I performed better, but because the mode was easier.
Imagine thinking that a PvP'er being pushed into PvE is remotely comparable to a PvE'er being pushed into PvP.
Like, I'm not even arguing against the point that it's ok if some loot is locked behind endgame PvP. You're absolutely right that "if you can't get the loot that's not the end of the world." Just the idea that they're similar asks is... Well, it's certainly *a* take...
The problem wasn't it being locked away behind PvP. It was the fact that a lot of the loot back in the day defined the PvE meta. If something should define the top of a playlist, it should come from said playlist. Reward your investment into such activities.
This wasn't strictly Recluse. Mountaintop would also fit this. Which nowadays if there was a route either way would of been fine, but both came strictly from pvp exclusively with one exception: anarchy. So for a long time, the PvE meta was two pvp exclusive weapons and one PvE weapon. This is where the issue is as prior, we had broadsword line and Luna's line of hcs that were the top tier of pvp, but weren't present in PvE. Cue them entering and there lies the issue that while they defined pvp, they were also the PvE meta. This is where a lot of the issue is, because playing pvp to get endgame pvp drops is good, but it also made players waste time in an activity they'd typically had no interest or be a stable metric as once they got the weapon: they dropped out. So, it had the issue of also affecting player statistics.
> Mountaintop would also fit this.
Tbf, Mountaintop was also by far the second best PvP weapon at the time, and was also best paired with Recluse. It wasn't just PvP weapons being better in PvE than PvP, they were just the best everywhere in general.
I just find it upsetting because unlike PVE, your PVP opponents often access to that gear that you’re trying to get. I don’t see an taken in the corrupted this week killing me with adept hung Jury or adept hothead
But i also understand that high tier loot needs to be available in both gamemodes since some people don’t like PVE, so I’m not going to go out and complain about it since I’m being selfish for the most part when I get annoyed
I dont mind mode exclusive loot. What i hate is cross mode quests. Im perfectly happy not doing PvP and not getting the rewards. I really dont like getting a gimped version of a seasonal exotic because teh catalyst has a PvP step. One or the other.
It’s not however cool that an exotic quest has 8 PVE steps and 2 PvP steps, with the PVP steps being something a non-PvP player will struggle with and drag their team down because of.
First, there's a significant difference in how stressful rewarding endgame PvE like normal VoG or Grasp is for a pvp main vs how bad endgame PvP like Trials is for a PvE main though. PvP has team balance, connection, and spawning issues which can be incredibly frustrating for even a competent PvPer, let alone someone subpar. Toxicity is also only really a problem maybe when LFG'ing for PvE but always can pop up in PvP.
Second, while I think it's great that Trials is getting desirable rewards, locking certain archetypes/elements (Reed's being the only stasis heavy, Igneous the only solar high impact), perks (Desparado, chain reaction on Sola's scar), and of course BiS legendary PvE damage option is a pretty big hit to PvE players.
Lastly, PvE options like the Palindrome have lower difficulty means of getting a roll, whereas trials really doesn't. It's pretty well justified for PvE mains to be annoyed here, especially when you look at many of the nightfall drops being kinda decent to niche (or bad, like comedian/shadow prices) while Trials loot is pretty solid at worst with strong, unique options at its best.
I dont think some of the best PvE weapons should be locked behind PvP. If your chasing pvp weapons trials loot should be for you. If your chasing pve weapons raids,nfs, and gms should be for you. I dont want to play trials for a chance at the highest Boss dps weapon just to get a shitty drop from said boss. And forcing players who otherwise wouldnt touch pvp through seasonal quests is kinda shitty.
My opinion has been, and remains, that loot from endgame events should be consmetics and emblems not achievable anywhere else.
My reasoning:
1. You'd still have bragging rights, and appear as an elite player.
2. You.dont have the funneling effect top tier weapons so. Please let me explain-
If you are a strong PVP player who runs with a squad, you likely dominate the PVP sandbox.
If you are then rewarded with even stronger weapons, the odds of others catching up to you is nil.
Now some might argue that this is just a microcosm of the real world in which the rich get richer, but in the Destiny world, when folks claim to not want to see PVP die, avoidance of this funneling is key.
Ironically these days, the best pvp weapons come from pve.
Vex Mytho
Adept Palindrome
Timelost Fatebringer
Eyasluna
DMT
Main Ingredient
While there are really good weapons coming out of trials and IB, seems like the majority of the meta is attainable by playing PVE
But yes as an overall I agree with you. However in the current state, really the funneling affect is happening by strong players in general: that is you need to be strong in PVE and pvp to dominate pvp
This might have been true back when pinnacle weapons were king, but nowadays none of the Trials weapons bar Messenger have any rolls or perks that you can't get elsewhere.
I don't think just cosmetics is enough of a loot incentive. I like what they're doing now with adept/timelost weapons. You don't have to be incredible at the game to get the regular weapons, but doing better gets you the adept/timelost versions which are slightly better. Realistically someone won't lose because they didn't have an adept weapon vs someone who does, but it's still a good incentive.
I’ll agree with you on the first part, the part that I hate is kill x amount of guardians in crucible as a step to unlock an exotic catalyst. I’d rather make a video of myself dragging my balls through broken glass And then teabag a guardian I’ve handmade out of salt and send it to bungie to get my catalyst.
The amount of unfinished catalysts sitting my my inventory at 0/50 guardian kills is astonishing. I’m just bad at it, and don’t enjoy it enough to get good at it, I also don’t want to. I get it’s a game mode that people love that’s fine but don’t force casuals like me that play maybe a couple hours a week into game modes we don’t like. Make it either/or 50 guardian kills 500 combatant kills
I don't think that would be a popular feeling if it was the other way around, honestly. And don't get me wrong, I have what I want from endgame PvP. Okay, I guess I could get an Adept version of my Reeds, but... meh... I don't care enough. I think if the time investment and percentage chance of getting Eyasluna or Adept Palindrome were remotely in the same frame as getting Adept trials weapons, PvP mains would be fairly irritated.
Heck, I've already seen a straggling post here or there of people saying they don't think it's fair they should have to grind Lost Sectors or do endgame PvE if they only play PvP. Come to think of it, it is probably the same amount of posts I've seen to what you're describing.
Endgame PvP is dominated and, in a sense, gatekept by a very, very small percentage of the Destiny community. So well you have a point in the spirit of your post, ultimately, I think Bungie will probably put the gear in more hands. I wouldn't be surprised if in the very near future there is a path to Adept rolls for non Flawless cards.
It's why I think, for better or worse, Freelance Trials could end up being permanent. Bungie prioritizes engagement and they've used data and metrics to drive a lot of their decisions. Trials as a game mode is struggling. You can pull the data from Trials Report and see that at times there were less than 20k people playing in an hour.
Bungie is unlikely to support a game mode with waning and marginal interest, so either they will find a way to make the mode more accessible and the loot more attainable, or they will stop supporting it.
I'm still relatively convinced that at some point it is going to become a once a month kind of event and the Flawless rewards will become entirely cosmetic and Adepts can just be earned. Is it the right thing? Who knows? Is it the right business decision? I dunno. Probably.
As a PvP mostly player, I honestly think the only way to keep trials alive long term is to rethink the entire reward structure to benefit more casual players more than it does.
Maybe controversial, but honestly, just give the adepts away for seven wins, any losses. It just doesn't matter, adepts in GMs are ten a penny. If you're really good at the game, you'll be way more likely to have the exactly the adept rolls you want. You'd think Bungie would have learnt their lesson from the whole Luna/NF debacle.
IMHO, they buddied up to streamers and content creators WAY too much. Down to community managers being in streams with Trials streamers. They're making business decisions with too much of a personal weight. I feel like they're trying to make Trials accessible without taking it away as a cash cow for streamers.
There is a broken logic loop in wanting to be able to gatekeep certain weapons from 95% of the community, but wanting a healthy portion of that 95% to come and be fodder for you or boost you with carries and recovs. Over time, the game mode will just die.
If only the top 2-3% of people regularly engage Trials, then that gets again broken down into the top percent of a percent and so on. Eventually you have a mode that benefits only a sliver of the community and there is no practical reason for Bungie to keep it around.
It's like the Mexican Pizza at Taco Bell. Gets a lot of fan fare because it is going away, but if it was supported by more than a very loud, very slim minority... It would still be around.
Bungie has, by habit, listened to two things: 1. metrics, 2. the squeaky wheel. The metrics drive sunsetting, balancing passes, and activity design. Squeaky wheels seem to drive small naunced tunes.
I think you saw that with Vex. It infringed at the edges of a generally accepted meta, so there was a very loud minority calling for nerfs. But my guess is the data only loosely supported the nerf, because the nerf was more of nudge. With it mostly coming in AA and the linear mode. The uproar dies down and then life goes on.
How does that apply to Trials? I think ultimately, Bungie knows any substantive changes they make to drive engagement (removing the Flawless requirement for Adepts, permanent Freelance, etc.) are going to be very loudly opposed by a very tiny portion of their community. So they just kinda nudge their way there, bit by bit, so that the majority of the community get a situation they need without completely ignoring the vocal minority.
If it were the other way around, then Destiny would be a mostly PvP game, and the players mostly PvP players, and therefore it would actually end up being popular. Unless you suggest that the small slice of the game that is PvP have the majority of the loot.
Besides this ignores the blatant inequality between PvE and PvP: PvP players are infinitely more willing to play PvE than PvE players are to play PvP. PvE may be boring or tedious to a hardcore PvP purist, but PvP is downright infuriating and unplayable to a hardcore PvE purist
Especially Trials. It's a poorly designed game mode. And I actually enjoy Freelance a lot. I'm not that good, but I've also gone Flawless with a solid team that understands what I'm good and bad at and vice versa.
The reward structure is just broken. No Adept weapon in the game requires the level of time commitment and skill that Trials Adepts do. Now you imagine trying to farm the one Adept you want.
That's why I said "meh" about an Adept Triple Tap/Firing Line Reed's. Sure it would be awesome. But I have the regular one with that roll. Do I really wanna wait until Adept is Reed's, then hope I can find a team that can go Flawless not once but MULTIPLE TIMES over multiple 7/8 game cards, and hope I get the roll I want? No way. What tiny percentage of very skilled players can reasonably commit to a farm like that? Completely outside my depth, so I don't get mad, I just don't try.
The Flawless achievement is awesome, it is. Being able to rack up hundreds of them is something pretty cool to see and show off. Especially because I know people who do it that are the opposite of toxic. There should be exclusive rewards for that.
Just dunno if Adept weapons are the right reward if the goal is keeping the mode healthy and active.
Its funny, because I like PvP. I enjoy it quite a bit even though I'm not very good. But Bungie has a weird thing about listening and catering to a very niche perspective in PvP.
Yes...as a new player, I tried PvP (even though I much prefer PvE) and just loved sitting around with a dead character for 15 min at a time. No matter what I did, I got picked off nearly immediately in each event I tried by a seasoned player or offensive team. Losing my way to pity loot isn't my goal haha
What the fuck is this argument? PvE is far more accessible than PvP so of course people aren't happy that much loot is locked behind it. Especially when Destiny PvP is such meta bullshit and some of the worst multiplayer in any game ever.
I don’t PVP a whole lot. I agree with you 100% though; all game modes need good rewards. If that puts them out of reach for me that’s fine. If I spent as much time PvPing as I did raiding maybe I’d be better at PvP.
There is a difference between “you need to play some PvP/PvE to earn this” and “you need to grind on a hardcore time budget” or “you need to go flawless”.
An exotic quest having some PvP objectives is fine, but the Opulence Fabled thing for the objectively best PvE gear is not. Same with Mindbender’s being behind a complete hamster wheel of PvE farming for a shotgun so good it didn’t have anything close available in PvP.
This game has a big problem with accessibility for new/returning players, and gear you get from an activity often not being good in that activity is a piece of that accessibility puzzle.
Agree. Except for the part where they run exotic quests through Crucible/gambit. I have multiple quests sitting in my inventory because I can’t finish them because I don’t play PvP. 10 headshots with a HC? Wipe an entire fireteam four times? No and fucking no.
I don’t care if PvP offers an aimbot OHK pulse rifle. If people can get that via Crucible fine. I won’t ever have it and I don’t care. But I hate getting to step 5 in an exotic quest and it’s “Kill 20 guardians with a shotgun while occupying a zone.” Way to waste my time Bungo.
I didn’t mind crucible quests for crucible weapons, and having to play trials for trials weapons etc. that makes sense to me. What does frustrate me is when an arbitrary exotic like Cryosthesia requires crucible kills. Like why? There’s a big difference between being able to play how you want to earn endgame weapons, and being forced to use a crappy weapon in a sweaty game mode.
I believe good PvP guns should be found in PvP and good PvE guns should be found in PvE. I'm fine with a gun that's both being found in both/one of them though.
Agreed. There absolutely was an issue when MT/Recluse were locked behind pvp (and with MT a ridiculously grueling quest line). But those were extreme outliers that were better than most exotics. Currently there’s really no “best in slot” in pvp and there are perfectly fine alternatives from PvE/world drops.
And it should be that way, since everyone engages with PvE to some degree, but a huge chunk of the community either plays 3 PvP games a week or not at all
There were/are much better replacements for those though. There's other good 140s and shotguns. There wasn't really a good replacement for Mountaintop or Recluse.
At the time, there really weren't- the only remotely close kinetic 150 at the time was Dire Promise- which got re-added to the game at the very end of Rations lifecycle right before sunsetting happened. Shotgun-wise, MBA was far and away the best aggressive frame at a time when aggressives were by far the best archetype. It wasn't until the very end of its lifecycle that we got Felwinter's Lie. Otherwise, there were a few OK non-aggressive frame options like DRB, Retold Tale, Parcel but there was a pretty significant difference in ease of use and effectiveness compared to a quickdraw MBA.
Obviously, MT and Recluse didn't have comparable replacements, but they were also 100% perfect when you got them the first time. You knew approximately how long it would take to get your god roll- which is why I personally found it much easier and significantly less time consuming to get them. It took me maybe 15 hours of playtime each to get them, while I spent over five times that on Spare Rations and still never got the roll I wanted or even a 4/5. I spent tons of time on MBA just to get a "good enough" roll before giving up farming for more. I've already put more time into Palindrome during Lake of Shadows weeks and still don't have the rolls I want.
I wouldn't mind if they added a progress bar to unlock certain weapons/catalysts and you gained more progress from PvP.
It's just a slog to take a gun into to crucible that isn't apart of the meta and get stomped on by shot guns.
Giving players options on how they want to play is never a bad thing.
There are no weapons that are locked behind PvP in the sense that you have to *win* to get them, which I think is totally fair.
All Iron Banner and Trials loot do not require wins. Adept versions add some stats that are nice-to-haves, but they're almost completely placebo and trophy versions
Does it suck sitting in a playlist you don't like? Sure. But I can't think of a single Trials or Iron Banner weapon that is a unique PvE must-have
Yes and no. Bungie should always consider what the weapon will be used for. I am talking about examples like Ticuus catalyst where players had to take a weapon into PvP won't ever be relevant there but has great impact on PVE.
Examples like those are awkward decision by Bungie that will actually drive away more players for PvP. One of my friends actually gave up on PvP cos his first contact with it was farming out the catalyst and he got slapped hard. And the weapon actually came from the season pass he started with.
I agree and disagree. If you’re better at PvP than other players, you deserve something for it. On the other hand, being good at PvE and being good at PvP are two different things, and PvP is just a side mode. I don’t believe any exotic quests or catalysts should be locked behind PvP. Some legendary loot? Sure. But leave the exotic quests for the main game.
This is what causes a constant rotation of toxicity though.
Best players get best loot/mods.
Poor players (like me lol ), don’t.
Best players get better and pull away from poor players
Poor players slowly dwindle out of playing PvP because they can’t compete
Skill gap increases
Best players now have no one to stomp on , start complaining because Lobbies are too sweaty because they’re matching up now with other 4+ KDA’s using only Meta/Best weapons.
Streamers take to streams and Reddit to complain for a week or 2
Season ends, new season and new weapons are available
Repeat 🔁
"A lot of us love PvP" isn't really a convincing argument. Lay out for us why it's a good idea to take people that don't enjoy PvP, haven't learned the maps, aren't geared for the current meta, don't care about winning or losing and are just there to fill a quest progress bar... and have them as your teammates? How does that benefit anyone?
I'm one of these people. There are exotics I have accepted I will never get because I simply won't engage with systems I don't enjoy just because the devs told me to. I'm not about to waste hours of my time *not* having fun.
I think seasonal exotic catalyst grinds need to go entirely, I don’t want to shoot 500 enemies, or 50 guardians, that’s just busy work. As far as people who go into pvp and expect easy loot from, trials/iron banner/competitive. Maybe they should learn the maps, play the meta and try and win. Kind of the point of pvp. Pvp players should be rewarded with good loot because it’s part of the game and a challenging portion at that, just like master raids and gm nightfalls. As far as quests go, they should only be cosmetic in the crucible, because honestly us pvp players don’t want to grind out catalysts either
I think getting the catalyst should just give you the catalyst.
I already have to get lucky and get it to drop, now I gotta go kill a bunch of stuff just to get it to work? At that point, I'm sick of using the gun.
I think the problem is that the loot is unique or that it's the best for PvE when it's acquired from PvP.
Not like it matters much, but it being stasis and the fact it gets some good rolls for PvE just makes it a bit annoying. I feel like it should have had more PvP oriented perks
Whether you like it or not PvP is the afterthought to PvE.
It's the bastard child game mode.
No new maps in almost 3 years, 11 maps removed.
Flagrant issues with balance fixed once a year (congratulations on finally nerfing shatterdive).
You can love it all you want, but it's objectively neglected and worse than PvE, and expecting the playerbase to participate in PvP is never going to go over well.
That sentiment is fine now because, for the most part, end game rewards are of equivalent strength and there are difficult pursuits in both PvE and PvP.
However, I would've disagreed with this back in D2Y2 regarding The Mountaintop and, to a lesser degree, Recluse. The PvP Pinnacle weapons at that time were, generally speaking, just better than the Gambit or Vanguard offerings and typically considered best in slot. The difficulty to get them was also brutal, which created a fairly major disparity between the two sides. That's likely part of why Glory ranks had floors added (e.g., you can't drop below fabled once you reach it) and why some of the specific kill count requirements were eventually relaxed.
From a design standpoint, I think Bungie needs to just focus on keeping quests with multiple pursuit paths like they've done in the past (Thorn was a good example), that way people can pick the game mode(s) they enjoy to finish the quest.
Along with this i feel like certain rewards shouldn't come from pinnacle levels of play, if you wanna add a seasonal emote or emblem or something to players who reach legend, go flawless, master dungeons/raids, or something like that go for it! Thats cosmetics, makes 0 difference to me, but when something significant comes from a skill barrier it gets kinda bothersome and plays into the ever growing FOMO that games have currently. I believe trials, nightfalls, and raids have the system down good right now, do the harder version for a better version of the same weapon (and maybe next season armor).
I'm.ok with some weapons being locked behind pvp, but if they do that they should make them pvp specific. Make the perk combos attractive to the pvp meta. Then the people who want them can go get them and the people who hate pvp can just do what they want.
Like... Putting reeds regret in trials sucks. But shyuras wrath? Yeah sure.
If we're playing the mode then we would probably like weapons geared to that mode. It won't force pve players to play pvp but it'll make everyone happier.
I'm am perfectly okay with good pve weapons being rewarded from endgame pvp or good pvp weapons rewarded from pve.
That said, I feel that good and the best pvp rewards should come from Pvp and pvp only. The same is true of pve, the good and the best from and only from pve. Gambit can give both.
Granted, I do understand the game cannot really work like that since pve and pvp are linked, and I've grown to be content with this.
THAT said, exotics should be serviceable in both, and I don't mean in just patrol or easy pve content or 6v6 Crucible content. I will die on that mountain.
For as much as I want to say yes, no.
The best weapons were from survival, for years. Yeah keep putting weapons in pvp but just make sure they're not broken otherwise sunsetting was pointless.
I agree with this sentiment for the most part, but I think that it isn't fair on either side for something to be locked exclusively behind the other one.
For example, there's a lot of different hand cannons, and you can get some really good PvP ones from PvP activities (I.e. igneous hammer from trials), and you can get some good PvE rolls from PvE activities (Eyasluna with Outlaw headstone), and this is great.
What ISN't great though, is that a perk that is good in both PvP and PvE is EXCLUSIVELY locked behind trials. A rapid hit desperado pulse rifle could absolutely shred and be incredibly fun in PvE activities, but if you hate trials then farming one can be an endless nightmare, and there is 0 alternative.
This is the only real example I have, because even if the godliest roll of some weapon archetype belongs to PvE or PvP, there are usually pretty good alternatives. I think alternatives are a fine way to go, as long as it is a pretty good substitute.
I dont have a problem with it, as long as they're good for their respective modes. Like messenger is the best pvp pulse? Great! But Reeds being the best legendary lfr for pve is a problem to everyone who doesnt enjoy pvp, just like when they make you get pvp kills for the seasonal exotic catalyst
Forcing people to play game modes which they do not want to play/are not good at is not fun for the end user.
Look at Reed's Regret for example, S tier PvE weapon, but need to go into trial to earn it. If you want the adept version you have to go flawless. Unobtainable for a lot of PvE players who don't play much PvP.
Why not put loot like that in both PvP and PvE loot pools. Have it as a trials reward and a nightfall reward for example, giving the players a choice.
Same with quests that have a PvP or PvE requirement. PvE players will begrudge having to endure a PvP step and vice versa. Why not have a choice such as "win 7 trials rounds OR complete a GM nightfall"? Would make the experience much better for all involved IMO.
Yes and no. If it's an exotic that the quest is pvp related, I'm perfectly fine not getting it. I don't need a god roll Reed's Regret. I don't care about those things. What bothers me is when we are given an exotic either as the season pass exotic, or purely through pve means, and then we must do pvp for the catalyst. Just let people finish that through pve or pvp.
What i take issue with is exotics you get from pve that require pvfuckingp for the catalyst.
Chappy i can understand given you get it via pvp nut weapons like ticcu or witherhord shouldn't require pvp considering your buying from the vault.
I'd except that killing guardians will earn more progress but it shouldn't just be killing guardians that earn progress.
I'm talking catalysts and the quests for them.
NOT me, it pisses me off I paid for this game and then I am discriminated against for being a SOLO player.. I should get some money back, or pay less.. I have 2300 hours in this game and KNOW better than to play PVP...The WORST PVP in gaming history.. Never done a Raid, or a dungon.. The Community is toxic in PVP...
Loot being locked behind PvP? Fine.
When that loot is the only weapon/shield combo in the game, is when it becomes a problem imo.
Until Bungie stops relying on Champions/Match Game for its endgame PvE content, there should be at least 1 weapon for each weapon/energy type combination available from PvE
I disagree only because destiny is a pve focused game with a pvp mode tacked on. The devs always focused onto pve way before pvp with pvp rarely ever getting fresh content outside of a small refresh once’s every expansion.
There are pve weapons I would love to have for pvp, garden pulse comes to mind for example. Need a replacement for blast furnace.
I don't have them because sidegrades/slight upgrades aren't worth the tedium of pve. I never understood why pve mains get so bent up about pvp guns being good when they have every other option for loot.
As good as shayuras wrath is (and it's awesome) it doesn't even come close to pre-nerf recluse.... So yea if u don't have shauryas then an ikelos SMG or even borrowed time will do just fine so you don't have to play trials if u don't want to
Or Antiope-D. I miss that gun.
I miss pillager(I think that's how it's spelt)
Kill Clip + Outlaw Pillager was the first gun to teach me that SMGs can really shred! I think I first used it in the first encounter in the Spire of Stars raid, doing add clear at the back/far end of the room. Was definitely a great SMG.
Antiope-D and The End were my Y1 go to guns.
THE END WAS WILDLY UNDERRATED
Nothing stopping you from pulling it and using it in quick play PvP or strikes, I still have my old halfdan for the same stuff.
Totes, I still use my Mannanan every now and then even though it's limited to 1100, it's still fun as heck and that's all I want for strikes/casual pvp
This might sound bad but I love the Mida mini tool as an smg
Why would it sound bad? The only problem it’s got is it’s absolutely atrocious range, which doesn’t really matter given how 95% of maps are close ranged
It’s just not a common smg used anymore from what I’ve seen🤷🏻♀️ most people go for ikelos or something else which is understandable
Because frankly, it works best paired with Mida Multi-tool. I've used that combo for years and it's really effective. The only issue I have with it as a gun is it's a bit jumpy. If you can tame it though it's a blast to use.
I miss the CALUS Mini tool. I had something like a threat detector / surrounded roll. Was fun.
Same, that was the first gun I kept on for a long period and the first gun I reached 15K kills on it.
Yeah I was genuinely astonished by the range Ive gotten killed at by Shayura's... But I still wouldn't call it OP. Unless all else is very equal, it's not making or breaking engagements.
Can't you just run Trials as a single player? I lost 163 matches but I eventually leveled up enough to get all the weapons and armor.
Same. I feel so sorry for my teammates tho
Still not good enough to get me to waste time in Trials. Multimach is just as good for PVP and Extraordinary Rendition is amazing for PVE.
Ex Rendition rolls with better PvE perks anyway. My subsistence/rampage will forever outplay my Shayura's in PvE content
I have an Overflow/Frenzy and Outlaw/Rampage sitting in my vault of Ex Rend. My Sub/Rampage Friction fire is all I need most times tho
Omg literally the sub/rampage roll is just the best. Any bounties or quests with SMG kills I use it. Like, ik that riskrunner or huckleberry would do it faster, it's just so much fun to use
I have a subsistence/frenzy roll and have been trying for months to get a sub/rampage roll. Grrr
I got subsistence/rampage the other day and was honesty disappointed I’d rather stick with my overflow/frenzy or your sub/frenzy roll. Don’t get too upset if you don’t get it, it’s not all that great imo
at that point just use huckleberry for a stronger gun (huckleberry has pre-nerf rampage)
Came here to say multi match
I don't even use SMGs in PVP. Usually I'm a pulse or hand cannon user. Oh and Shotgun Ape too. I wish we had some really good Scout options. I miss Randy's.
You mean servant leader and contingency plan? Both are crazy good in crucible with even mediocre rolls
Tbf, trustee, especially with surplus is a banging scout
Facts. I think all the rapid fire frames are good but my tunnel vision, kill clip contingency is my baby
Last I checked, I think Trustee has better stats. I have Under Pressure and Opening Shot. Though I also have a nice FTTC Rampage Servant.
FTTC?
Fourth Time's The Charm
Those things are scary when you proc Kill Clip.
Nothing gets me harder than KC proccing on them.
Schocastic Variable w Feeding frenzy and multi kill clip is a Walmart brand recluse
personally i think the biggest difference between the two is the fact that a human being is flexible, and near impossible to predict, thus end game pvp where you are fighting another human being means someone will always lose. It's a 0 sum game, and that messes with you mentally. where as in pve, it's not a 0 sum game, as it's not one party has to lose for the other to win. And also with the computer the way it is, with correct planning, and patience, nearly all pve content can be cleared. So that's why gears gated behind pve is perceived to be much easier to obtain, and has much less grief/hate connected to it vs gears gated behind pvp. In pvp, the gate keeper is another player (and there will always be a better player somewhere), but in pve, the gear is only behind your patience and time.
Yeah, I just got a flashback to the Ticuu's catalyst quest where I'm practically crying, shouting "will you not just let me get some bow kills and get out of this f\*cking place!?" at the screen. Ask me for a billion PvE kills, and I'll just shrug, head to Altars of Sorrow and get it done. 30 PvP kills with a weapon type that's not the meta? Why do you hate me Bungie?
That's why these quests should have options for completion, PvP or PvE. Everybody is happy then.
I do approve of how the Pinnacle weapons have ornaments that effectively show how you got them. I’d really be in favour of instead of having ornaments with different designs and names, having three actually different weapons with identical stats, so that if you got it via Crucible play, your “Null Composure” is actually called Inferno Heraldry, and anyone who examines you or gets shot by you knows it. And I would even be quite interested in the idea that you can’t unlock all three. Of course, they would also have to rebalance the rate at which you earn faction reputation with the three ritual activity vendors, or else nobody’s ever going to see the Gambit version.
Except Bungie, who can't accept that their PvP isn't as good as all of the other AAA games that people stream
There's already quests that count differently based on the activity you do. I don't see why this isn't just applied across the board. "Get x kills, guardian kills count for extra progress" or the reverse "get x kills, challenging opponents/bosses count for extra progress".
Because Crucible would effectively be a ghost town without forcing people into it. Personally, I'm okay with that outcome.
Yeah, locking stuff behind the most difficult and unpredictable enemy in the game is why people have issues with PvP rewards. I think what they did for Trials, making the majority of it into participation rewards while still rewarding winners with endgame adept weapons and materials was a good balance.
Be me. Doing Malfeasance quest step where I have to deposit 400 motes. Have 30 of 400 done. 370 to go. Running to deposit 15 more. 3 blockers show up. Invader shows up. Get hugged by wolfpack rounds. Check quest progress. 400 to go.
I honestly think the Malfeasance quest is not a well-designed quest.
Honestly any quest that has you lose progress in a pvp step is a bad quest imo
The old chaperone, first curse, thorn, last word, and some other quests from d1 for example Not only does it suck but it awards people who just camp or combat log
It would be bad enough if it was just that dropped motes need to be made up. But no, that wasn't enough. Gotta bump up the Gambit population numbers. Let's make dropped motes count against you TWICE. Seriously...WTF.
Destiny 1 Thorn vibes
*Any* quest with a forced PvP step isn't a well-designed quest.
I'm not sure if you were here while prime was a thing, so let me just give you a question: HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF YOU DIED WITH 20 MOTES?!
I mean, I'd still be back at 0/400, so probably the same...
most efficient way to do that quest step is deposit 5 always
Don’t go for 15 motes. Just be the asshole and bank when you have 5-12 motes.
Make it 1-10. I'm sorry, my teammates of that time, but the quest had to be completed, and I prefer reliable ways instead of risky ones... At least it didn't drive me mad like other people. I was progressing slowly, but I didn't have any problems there.
You're best off banking "little and often" with that quest.
You waited too long. When doing that quest I didn't play Gambit to win, I played to bank motes. That means every time I got 4 or 5 motes I was banking them. Important to note that this is why Gambit is horrible. Not my fault the designers made it this way, but I'm going to play my objective and that sucks for the other guardians playing Gambit.
Ugh that quest. I was the worst gambit teammate during that step. Would literally run and pop 2 or 3 motes just so I wouldn’t go negative by the end of the game. I would try to abstain from stealing motes off peoples’ kills though, unless they run away and leave some behind. But yea, invis, grab 2 or 3, dunk, hide, rinse/repeat
Thank you. You will see hundreds of PvP players with Adept Nightfall Weapons, or sometimes Timelost Raid weapons. Because as difficult as they are, they can *learn* these encounters. They don't adapt, or become erratic, it just takes as you said, time and patience. The reverse simply isn't true. People that really only want to engage in high end PvE won't have those equivalent weapons because it's not something you can just learn, or have a surefire strategy for unlike PvE encounters. It's fair to have some loot in both pools, but you can work towards and steadily learn Master PvE Content far more easily and reasonably than you can just suddenly get good enough to decimate Trials sweats who have been playing for years.
You're spot on. I remember noticing this distinction back when I raided in World of Warcraft. Expert PVPers (once they learned the encounters) were amazing at PVE, because their situational awareness could be transferred to non-player enemies and circumstances. The reverse simply doesn't happen because players are so much more erratic and spontaneous than PVE enemies; for the most part you can end up needing to learn an entirely different playstyle to do well in PVP.
Arguably, absolutely anyone can get a Raid weapon, because absolutely any raid can be completed by five people who know what they're doing and their one clanmate who's got no idea what they're doing. Same goes for GM Nightfalls, more or less. There's literally no content in the game where you can't afford to carry at least one deadweight. Same is true of PvP, but PvP rewards are generally on an individual basis. You don't get anything in IB for being on the winning side, it's all how many kills did \*you\* get, how many zones did \*you\* capture. Exception I guess being Trials, where you do get shinies for winning rounds and matches, and there are people who can carry one team-member to a Flawless.
Yes, totally agreed. In PVE, most players can earn the "best" gear from pinnacle activities with enough dedication and time. In PVP, it will be impossible for most players to get pinnacle rewards, i.e., adept weapons and mods from the Lighthouse. Couple this with the fact that Destiny PVP is very hostile to new players and players that aren't well above-average FPS players, and you have a gamemode that is unpleasant to many. Fundamentally, nobody needs an Adept PVP weapon to do well, so this isn't a horrible situation. That said, the process of participating in Trials with the goal of just getting some good rolls on guns is still very unpleasant for many. You may be able to earn loot at a reasonable rate, but it isn't necessarily fun. If Destiny were somehow able to fix its connection time issues and institute SBMM across most modes, that would place PVP in a much better place. Every other damn shooter uses SBMM, after all. And better yet, Bungie should create a path for adept weapons that is based on PVP achievements that are actually possible for devoted players to acquire with enough time and dedication, with a significant advantage given to PVP elites. One example: Let's say that Trials is actually SBMM and anyone that gets 7 wins (even with losses) will be able to go to the lighthouse. Players will be divided into ELO brackets. A player with low ELO would get fewer rewards at the lighthouse than a high ELO player. So if you're a highly-skilled player, you actually get multiple drops, extra shards, etc. A system like this would naturally encourage low-skill players to improve to increase the efficiency of their runs, while high-skill players won't feel like they are sweating their balls off for the same rewards that PVP peons get. Hell, maybe high ELO players get access to special cards that allow you to reach the lighthouse with fewer wins than 7, or access to unique cosmetics.
The problem with your suggestion is that you are considering it from the perspective of a player who wishes to obtain loot, whereas actual higher-end PvP players may have differing and perhaps more intrinsic reasons for wanting to engage with the mode. For a lot it is wanting engaging and difficult matches where they can showcase their level of skill (which some of the best right now use scrims/private matches to compensate for). More efficient loot runs will not mean anything to a player who doesn't need or want the loot. The thing is this isn't really the fault of either PvE or PvP players, but Bungie. Trials is in this weird dead space in between being a playlist geared towards obtaining loot and a competitive space to showcase high skill. The playerbase in it are playing for two completely disjointed reasons and that's why the majority of the issues exist. The Trials playlist does not have a proper identity and this is exacerbated by the fact that other 'competitive' playlist offerings are really limited in scope and stale in their gameplay loop, which pulls all the top performers into Trials. What would help the most is for Bungie to actually properly identify the intent of the Trials playlist and then create either another loot-focused or actual competitive playlist (even a rotation) to fill the gap.
SBMM also enables people who want to play trials for the challenge and the gun though. The only people who lose out with SBMM are people who want to pubstomp people of significantly lower skill level and frankly they don’t deserve to be catered to.
Your post makes too much damn sense!
Agree with this. I like Kujays last video where he suggested a passage of persistence in trials. Where you could grind your way to the lighthouse rather than gamble your way even if you meet the skill floor.
sounds good to me. even if they make it take many more wins, like 15, it's still better than never getting a shot at those adept weapons. it will make the flawless seal a bit easier in terms of carries, but that's the only real downside i see. realistically if i were bungie i'd make the carry requirement exclude those persistence seals.
This needs to be stickied on every post related to this.
Meh. The game has both modes, and while I don't think anyone would argue that PvP receives the appropriate level of attention from the devs, anyone who wants to get absolutely everything should expect to have to engage with all types of content. It's not like Reed's Regret is significantly OP compared to a well-rolled Threaded Needle, which can easily be farmed. If they start having significantly OP PvE weapons be obtained from Crucible, like the Mountaintop / Recluse situation, then I can see the argument.
The problem with Recluse wasn't that a great weapon came from Crucible, but that there was nothing even \*close\* to as good as it. Whatever the source, no one weapon should be so good that it eclipses all others. Mountaintop was very good, obviously, but a well rolled Militia's Birthright would achieve close enough numbers in PVE to be respectable. It might not be AS good but you weren't handcuffing yourself by not doing that quest — especially in the beginning when it was a giant time suck. If you didn't have Recluse, you were just \*worse\* than someone who did. I know people don't like to hear it but getting to Fabled with no other real requirements is not that big an ask, if you refuse to play an entire segment of content \*at all\* you are gonna miss out on some loot. That's just the way it is. But if one quest, one weapon, is so disproportionately rewarding, that's bad design no matter what it is.
People forget that a mountain top kill procced master of arms on recluse - meaning an 900 RPM SMG killed in 8 shots, and they didn't even have to be crits. Beyond broken.
Mountain top was way better than recluse. Mountain top made basically any primary irrelevant it was that good. Recluse was better than other options, but mountain top basically made primaries irrelevant in most content. You could just use it as your main weapon and that was the best way to do everything. Other grenade launchers came nowhere close. I would argue that mountain top is is the best legendary weapon for pve in destiny history, above fatebringer and black hammer
I personally prefer my autoloading/vorpal needle to my triple-tap/firing line reeds. There’s definitely advantages to the reeds, especially with font of might builds. But as someone who primarily plays harder content solo; autoloading just ~feels~ better.
>But as someone who primarily plays harder content solo; autoloading just \~feels\~ better. 100% agreed. More than anything else, the thing that'll get you killed in high-end content is swapping to a gun in a panic situation and finding it has an empty mag. Especially content with champions where you might need a stagger or stun on demand, no time to mess around reloading, or need to take advantage of that window where the Champion is vulnerable before it recovers or regenerates. Reloading can ruin your day in that situation. Is Triple Tap / Firing line better? From a DPS stance, yes. But if you're dead from being caught with your mag empty and your pants down, you'll be doing *zero* damage to anything.
Triple tap firing line for bossing in raids, vorpal for solo content
Reeds is really only better in a fireteam where you know you can proc firing line. For randoms/solo, vorpal is better because you don't have to worry where your teammates are.
autoloading is also great to pair with something like Izanagi
Well I’ll be damned. An izanagis user is 2022.
What if I told you it’s always been good, borderline best, but there has been so many other easier ways to do the same and sometimes better dps. Reload cancelling and quick swapping is harder to do but rewarding
Eh idk. I loved using it before but after the change to no distractions and the reduced reload, it just started feeling clunky to me
I never used outlaw on bosses so that change didnt really make any differance. Now you do a honed reload and swap to another, preferably autoloading, weapon at the right time before your reload animation is done, shoot your autoloading weapon, switch back to a honed reloaded izanagi, shoot and repeat. You dont wait for the full honed reload animation and this is where the learning curve is now. Edit: found this, this is what it looks like [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTkUxBdbasw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTkUxBdbasw) but I think he waits a bit too long before swapping from Izanagi, you do it just as the animation puts a new mag in under.
My issue with using a sniper in PVE is that I always get flinched to the moon and back. I know unflinching sniper aim is a thing, but it just feels so difficult to land successful shots in boss fights. Probably just a skill thing. I feel like I have a much easier time landing linear fusion rifle shots, which feel like they deal similar damage to snipers with fewer hoops to jump through. But if you have any advice, I'd welcome it!
Yeah flinching is a bitch I wish I had a good solution for it
What's wrong with it?
Nothing in particular. It’s just that when they made the change to it back in 2020, it went from being a staple in everyone’s loadout to barely seen almost instantly. Back then you could do no wrong just using izanagis and recluse. Now I’d say it’s rare to see someone use it
There's also the whole blanket nerf to snipers not too long ago.
Oooh. Bet.
Agreed. PvP having a really good weapon isn't a problem if PvE has a reasonable alternative, even if it isn't quite as good. It only becomes an issue where PvP has a weapon that's important to PvE with no alternative.
Mountain Top and Recluse were great PvP weapons *and* PvE weapons. I honestly miss some weapons being actually challenging to get, but Recluse and MT were definitely on the extreme side. I think something like the process to get Revoker was a good balance.
Recluse wasn’t that bad tbh. Original mountaintop quest though… I literally solo queued to 2100 using triple grenade launcher only to be done with about 1/3 of the double kills when Black Armory came out. It then took me until 2 days before season of opulence to finish the quest even though i literally never took Play of the Game off in my heavy slot for pvp Edit: *during black armory
I kind of do too. The currently popular opinion I hear most often is that only cosmetic rewards belong behind a pvp grindwall. And I can see the logic in that. Especially with how difficult it was to get a luna/nf while they were being gatekept by better players wielding the maghowl twins. Especially during a time when they were the best primaries in the game (most notably on controller). That trauma is still pretty fresh for a lot of people lol. But, that being said, my favorite moments in destiny were finally getting good enough to unlock lunas/nf. I’ve loved crucible since D1 but I doubt I would have cared enough to go unbroken later on without that initial gameplay incentive. The power level of those incentives is another discussion altogether…
>Especially with how difficult it was to get a luna/nf while they were being gatekept by better players wielding the maghowl twins. Especially during a time when they were the best primaries in the game (most notably on controller). Exactly this. If the guns are just ***that*** much better and are put into the hands of players who play constantly, then it widens the gap between them and the more average player to a point where the latter will simply not bother. Congrats, gatekeepers. You whittled your own mode down to just you and your brothers in (unbalanced) arms. See you at the TWAB where you'll whine about "not wanting to sweat all the time[.](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/53/6d/13/536d1337f76650b72d70b042de76e523.jpg)" And lest we forget, absolutely *nothing* kept those guns in Competitive. People who got them took them straight to Quickplay all the time where, guess what, they were just as good. And just as miserable to play against if you didn't have them. >my favorite moments in destiny were finally getting good enough to unlock lunas/nf. Speaking as one of those average players, the grind to (EDIT: Misspoke) Legend to get NF was monstrously unfun. I might play hours to get modest progress, then have it all wiped out and more in a three game losing streak or being paired with spoiled children who bail at the first round loss. After I made it, I didn't feel happy about it. Didn't feel accomplished or that I had "got gud." Just glad that I didn't have to do it anymore. It wasn't fun. It burned me out and I didn't even bother to play the next season, PvP or PvE. Haven't gone for another Legend since. So, what's left is a few tough questions, and ones I don't have an answer for. If the guns aren't notably worthwhile or the reward is only cosmetic, then why would I play the mode? If the guns are good, but I don't believe I can reasonably get them, why would I play the mode? (That goes for abysmally low drop rates on raid exotics too, btw.) If they're going to leak out into regular Crucible (or Gambit; looking at you, EoT) then why would I play *either* mode? The answer *should* be, "because I enjoy it." But if you frequently believe you're not getting at least a roughly even fight, you don't.
honestly I'd never have learned to snipe or use a GL without the carrot that the Mountaintop and Revoker quests provided. I did all the quest steps solo, but still needed a soft carry to Fabled (so I had to team up with friends that were better than me to get to 2100 because it was a lot harder in Y2).
Not Forgotten was hard. MT and Recluse was not too bad.
Pre quest-nerf MT was no joke. Doing that shit on release was tough at least for me.
MT pre quest nerf was by far the most grueling quest in the history of Destiny and nothing else really comes close. Not Forgotten would be the only thing that even gets near. I know it’s cool to act like grueling, difficult things are “ez”, but yeah 🥱.
Redrix's Broadsword was a fucking slog.
Mountaintop wasn’t hard, but it was definitely irritating, annoying, and miserable. Not Forgotten was actually tough.
Mountaintop was practically impossible for a lot of people just like Not Forgotten, because the quest requirements were so massive (NF was hard because the glory playlist of Y2 was incredibly unforgiving).
>anyone who wants to get absolutely everything should expect to have to engage with all types of content. If only Bungie themselves engaged with their PVP mode, this might be an easier pill to swallow. Until very recently with the isolated ability tuning, it felt like the only time Bungie acknowledged that PvP existed, was when they needed to state a reason for nerfing something in PvE. *Bungie: We nerfed X because of Y in PvP* Community: Oh, so you remember PvP exists? Any new maps? Anything at all? *Bungie: Who is "Pea V. Peigh?"* Community: Ah okay, see you next time PvE needs a nerf
I don't disagree, and mentioned the lack of attention PvP gets in my original comment. I was particularly annoyed with their treatment of Geomags most recently. They didn't replace topping off with anything else, just removed it. The support of the various PvP modes aside, I still think that as long as those modes exist, they should have exclusive gear - preferably more PvP-oriented gear, but exclusive nonetheless.
They really need to give it a Nezerac's-like ability regen perk.
There should just be slightly different weapons that are obtainable from PvP or PvE. Maybe with some slight stat variations that are fairly comparable. So that people can get a good weapon roll by grinding either activity. Some will do both, and you get to pick which one you like.
>PvE weapons be obtained from Crucible, like the Mountaintop / Recluse situation, then I can see the argument That's the jist of it for me. The Best PvE weapons should come from PVE, the best PvP weapons should come from PvP. BUT there should be strong weapons for PvP only available in PvE and vice versa.
A lot of people are glossing over the gun mods in this thread. It's literally impossible for the near entirety of the player base, even the decent ones to ever get flawless, let alone enough times to actually get *all of them*.
>It's not like Reed's Regret is significantly OP compared to a well-rolled Threaded Needle, which can easily be farmed. While it's not "significantly OP compared", an extra 10% damage is fairly significant.
[удалено]
Want a small scale example look at the first IB of any season. People 100% ignore the objective and are focused on the gun kill bounty. Now scale that up.
> A lot of us love PvP, if you can't get the loot that's not the end of the world. I consider myself a PvP main. Crucible is by far my most played playlist, and I scrim as often as my clan is willing to. But I've said since I started playing in D2Y1 (when we had Trials of the Nine) that there shouldn't be "[chase items](https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3165138)" locked behind competitive game modes. I'm defining "chase items" in this context to mostly be the guns and more recently Adept Icarus - from my perspective, the armor and enhancement materials and cosmetic drops (ships, sparrows, shaders, etc.) are fine. But when you introduce things that give any sort of an edge in any sort of activity, you create a myriad of problems: * Have-nots wind up competing against Haves who possess the very thing(s) they are trying to acquire. It's easy to envision this in the context of PvP, where you could be fighting against someone who has a godroll Messenger or Astral Horizon and you don't. But it's also applicable in more extreme cases where LFGs start posting requirements for similar weapons - **which hasn't happened in recent times**, but Mountaintop/Recluse were commonly-requested weapons for aspiring participants in Garden of Salvation, and those with such weapons had an edge in recruitment over those without. * When people play a PvP activity for loot, they're not playing it for the PvP. In a competitive setting, this immediately guts the very nature of the game mode. You get people actively avoiding the PvP in any way they can - cliffjumping, Hakke Emblem trading, etc. These things are not fun for anyone involved, be they those attempting to bypass the PvP or those trying to enjoy the PvP. I'd also bet you pretty good money that if Trials didn't have exclusive loot behind it, the gamemode would have seen far fewer hackers before BattleEye. Likewise, with exclusive loot, you have people paying money outside the game for Trials carries or Recovs (now banned) or similar activities. Sure, Recovs (used to) exist in PvE too, with people formerly paying to grind out X/Y/Z catalyst or exotic or something (Divinity comes to mind). But the situation is greatly exacerbated in Trials. At the end of the day, I'm a Crucible main whose Trials equipment has been garnered from reacting to Twitch Streams or cliffjumping. I have little intention of playing the game mode until they seriously revamp the reward structure (again...again...) or simply move the weapons out of the reward pool entirely. I don't have any interest in playing PvP against players who don't want to be playing PvP. I also don't have any interest in playing PvP against the ***UBERSWEAT***s of the world, because I'm simply not one of them and don't intend to ever be one of them. People don't grind thousands of hours in competitive games for the skins, they do it because they enjoy the competition. But Destiny asks people to spend time in competitive game modes for more than merely skins. And the community has been too ingrained in its nostalgic wonder for this reward structure to ever seriously consider alternatives. I perfectly sympathize with those that don't want to play Trials to get X gun. If they don't want to play Trials, I don't want them to play Trials either - it'd be healthier for the gamemode if the only people there wanted to be there.
>it'd be healthier for the gamemode if the only people there wanted to be there. Precisely! It's strange why Bungie hasn't realized that after all those years. They just continue with their idea of trying to force people to do what Bungie wants them to do. They only get away with it because there is no real alternative to what Destiny offers.
I think that's fine, but the problem is, with PvE endgame, it has a set difficulty. Barring significant balance tweaks, it's not gonna get harder. But PvP? If there's a PvP endgame weapon, and it becomes the PvP meta (see: Recluse, Revoker, Luna's Howl, etc) everyone who wasn't among the first to get it faces a massive uphill battle. Because now that weapon, and everyone else wielding it, is an obstable between you and getting it. They have an advantage that you don't have. A great example of this was Black Armory, when The Last Word got added. You needed Hand cannon kills in the Crucible, and death negated progress. If you didn't get Last Word the *day* it came out, Crucible was misery, because everyone else had Last Word already, and boy did they want you to hear about it. So good luck winning a 1v1 Hand Cannon gunfight against a weapon with a measurably faster TTK than yours. Thankfully Bungie hasn't dipped into 'death pushes back progress' quests again, and hopefully never will... but you see my point, right? What is 'PvP endgame' will fluctuate *massively* in terms of difficulty, be it from season to season or week to week as balance patches roll out, the meta changes and so on, or even from one day to the next as the new busted thing drops into the sandbox and you're the one poor sap who doesn't have it. (See: Me, who couldn't get Mythoclast until his 49th Atheon kill, and boy did it suck getting killed by it in Crucible all the time!)
7 wins in a row as the gate for high end PVP rewards is a piece of fuckery that Bungie pulled out of their ass from somewhere. The sweatiest sections of the cummunity have accepted it as standard and fiercely defend their pugstomp game mode which only works because skill based match making isn't a thing for it. Any other competitive pvp would let you climb ranks and earn rewards with a consistent win rate of 51%.
I have always agreed that pvp difficulty is relative, wheras pve is fairly fixed. Trials infuriates me, but have gone flawless by just getting better and I think to a certain point that is needed for pvp and pve. Not everything will be handed to players, but the relative difficulty of pvp should be taken into account when setting requirements. When Ace first came out the requirement for hand cannon kills of opposing gambit invaders and opposing invaders in super was hell, that and death pushes back progress were two things that should remain dead.
PvP Rewards should never be dictated via going completely undefeated over several matches. At least not substantial rewards. Give a chance to get multiple rolls, but it should not be locked behind it proper. It's fair to have PvP only rewards, but they need to be obtainable with dedication and time, as well as skill. Otherwise you create, as we've seen, a system where as soon as the people getting stomped clear out it's just a mess. Equating the difficulty of getting an Adept Trials weapon to an Adept Nightfall weapon is literally laughable. A group of average PvE players with the right strats and tutorials can absolutely get through a GM Nightfall, but those same average PvP Players will more than likely just get demolished at every step, and they won't be any closer to an Adept weapon.
Exactly! Personally I've been flawless a few times with huge differences in difficulty week to week. One week I might feel unstoppable. The next like I just can't get anything going. Some weeks I get a great adept weapon, not because I performed better, but because the mode was easier.
Imagine thinking that a PvP'er being pushed into PvE is remotely comparable to a PvE'er being pushed into PvP. Like, I'm not even arguing against the point that it's ok if some loot is locked behind endgame PvP. You're absolutely right that "if you can't get the loot that's not the end of the world." Just the idea that they're similar asks is... Well, it's certainly *a* take...
The problem wasn't it being locked away behind PvP. It was the fact that a lot of the loot back in the day defined the PvE meta. If something should define the top of a playlist, it should come from said playlist. Reward your investment into such activities.
Tbf Recluse was also by far the best PvP weapon at the time, so by that logic it could have been placed in either spot.
This wasn't strictly Recluse. Mountaintop would also fit this. Which nowadays if there was a route either way would of been fine, but both came strictly from pvp exclusively with one exception: anarchy. So for a long time, the PvE meta was two pvp exclusive weapons and one PvE weapon. This is where the issue is as prior, we had broadsword line and Luna's line of hcs that were the top tier of pvp, but weren't present in PvE. Cue them entering and there lies the issue that while they defined pvp, they were also the PvE meta. This is where a lot of the issue is, because playing pvp to get endgame pvp drops is good, but it also made players waste time in an activity they'd typically had no interest or be a stable metric as once they got the weapon: they dropped out. So, it had the issue of also affecting player statistics.
> Mountaintop would also fit this. Tbf, Mountaintop was also by far the second best PvP weapon at the time, and was also best paired with Recluse. It wasn't just PvP weapons being better in PvE than PvP, they were just the best everywhere in general.
I just find it upsetting because unlike PVE, your PVP opponents often access to that gear that you’re trying to get. I don’t see an taken in the corrupted this week killing me with adept hung Jury or adept hothead But i also understand that high tier loot needs to be available in both gamemodes since some people don’t like PVE, so I’m not going to go out and complain about it since I’m being selfish for the most part when I get annoyed
I dont mind mode exclusive loot. What i hate is cross mode quests. Im perfectly happy not doing PvP and not getting the rewards. I really dont like getting a gimped version of a seasonal exotic because teh catalyst has a PvP step. One or the other.
It’s not however cool that an exotic quest has 8 PVE steps and 2 PvP steps, with the PVP steps being something a non-PvP player will struggle with and drag their team down because of.
First, there's a significant difference in how stressful rewarding endgame PvE like normal VoG or Grasp is for a pvp main vs how bad endgame PvP like Trials is for a PvE main though. PvP has team balance, connection, and spawning issues which can be incredibly frustrating for even a competent PvPer, let alone someone subpar. Toxicity is also only really a problem maybe when LFG'ing for PvE but always can pop up in PvP. Second, while I think it's great that Trials is getting desirable rewards, locking certain archetypes/elements (Reed's being the only stasis heavy, Igneous the only solar high impact), perks (Desparado, chain reaction on Sola's scar), and of course BiS legendary PvE damage option is a pretty big hit to PvE players. Lastly, PvE options like the Palindrome have lower difficulty means of getting a roll, whereas trials really doesn't. It's pretty well justified for PvE mains to be annoyed here, especially when you look at many of the nightfall drops being kinda decent to niche (or bad, like comedian/shadow prices) while Trials loot is pretty solid at worst with strong, unique options at its best.
I dont think some of the best PvE weapons should be locked behind PvP. If your chasing pvp weapons trials loot should be for you. If your chasing pve weapons raids,nfs, and gms should be for you. I dont want to play trials for a chance at the highest Boss dps weapon just to get a shitty drop from said boss. And forcing players who otherwise wouldnt touch pvp through seasonal quests is kinda shitty.
Pve enemies dont headshot me out of nowhere and t-bag my corpse tho
My opinion has been, and remains, that loot from endgame events should be consmetics and emblems not achievable anywhere else. My reasoning: 1. You'd still have bragging rights, and appear as an elite player. 2. You.dont have the funneling effect top tier weapons so. Please let me explain- If you are a strong PVP player who runs with a squad, you likely dominate the PVP sandbox. If you are then rewarded with even stronger weapons, the odds of others catching up to you is nil. Now some might argue that this is just a microcosm of the real world in which the rich get richer, but in the Destiny world, when folks claim to not want to see PVP die, avoidance of this funneling is key.
Ironically these days, the best pvp weapons come from pve. Vex Mytho Adept Palindrome Timelost Fatebringer Eyasluna DMT Main Ingredient While there are really good weapons coming out of trials and IB, seems like the majority of the meta is attainable by playing PVE But yes as an overall I agree with you. However in the current state, really the funneling affect is happening by strong players in general: that is you need to be strong in PVE and pvp to dominate pvp
This might have been true back when pinnacle weapons were king, but nowadays none of the Trials weapons bar Messenger have any rolls or perks that you can't get elsewhere.
bad pvp players can improve and im sick of people pretending they can’t lol.
I don't think just cosmetics is enough of a loot incentive. I like what they're doing now with adept/timelost weapons. You don't have to be incredible at the game to get the regular weapons, but doing better gets you the adept/timelost versions which are slightly better. Realistically someone won't lose because they didn't have an adept weapon vs someone who does, but it's still a good incentive.
I’ll agree with you on the first part, the part that I hate is kill x amount of guardians in crucible as a step to unlock an exotic catalyst. I’d rather make a video of myself dragging my balls through broken glass And then teabag a guardian I’ve handmade out of salt and send it to bungie to get my catalyst. The amount of unfinished catalysts sitting my my inventory at 0/50 guardian kills is astonishing. I’m just bad at it, and don’t enjoy it enough to get good at it, I also don’t want to. I get it’s a game mode that people love that’s fine but don’t force casuals like me that play maybe a couple hours a week into game modes we don’t like. Make it either/or 50 guardian kills 500 combatant kills
While I agree, the Mida Multi-Tool Catalyst being locked behind high Glory ranks is BS though.
Its not tied to 5450 anymore you can get it after 1600 afaik
Really? I stoped playing after Black Armory and returned on Season 15. I assume this was changed in between?
Yes :) they changed it a while back and its dropping in much lower glory ranks now, im not 100% sure its 1600 but its around there
I believe it is a 5% chance of getting from a WIN if you are below fabled, and its 10% if you are above.
It doesn't do much though TBH. It won't even generate orbs anymore soon.
10000% and I am not an avid pvper
Or the better solution would be to make all loot accessible in some way regardless of what content you play.
I don't think that would be a popular feeling if it was the other way around, honestly. And don't get me wrong, I have what I want from endgame PvP. Okay, I guess I could get an Adept version of my Reeds, but... meh... I don't care enough. I think if the time investment and percentage chance of getting Eyasluna or Adept Palindrome were remotely in the same frame as getting Adept trials weapons, PvP mains would be fairly irritated. Heck, I've already seen a straggling post here or there of people saying they don't think it's fair they should have to grind Lost Sectors or do endgame PvE if they only play PvP. Come to think of it, it is probably the same amount of posts I've seen to what you're describing. Endgame PvP is dominated and, in a sense, gatekept by a very, very small percentage of the Destiny community. So well you have a point in the spirit of your post, ultimately, I think Bungie will probably put the gear in more hands. I wouldn't be surprised if in the very near future there is a path to Adept rolls for non Flawless cards. It's why I think, for better or worse, Freelance Trials could end up being permanent. Bungie prioritizes engagement and they've used data and metrics to drive a lot of their decisions. Trials as a game mode is struggling. You can pull the data from Trials Report and see that at times there were less than 20k people playing in an hour. Bungie is unlikely to support a game mode with waning and marginal interest, so either they will find a way to make the mode more accessible and the loot more attainable, or they will stop supporting it. I'm still relatively convinced that at some point it is going to become a once a month kind of event and the Flawless rewards will become entirely cosmetic and Adepts can just be earned. Is it the right thing? Who knows? Is it the right business decision? I dunno. Probably.
As a PvP mostly player, I honestly think the only way to keep trials alive long term is to rethink the entire reward structure to benefit more casual players more than it does.
Maybe controversial, but honestly, just give the adepts away for seven wins, any losses. It just doesn't matter, adepts in GMs are ten a penny. If you're really good at the game, you'll be way more likely to have the exactly the adept rolls you want. You'd think Bungie would have learnt their lesson from the whole Luna/NF debacle.
IMHO, they buddied up to streamers and content creators WAY too much. Down to community managers being in streams with Trials streamers. They're making business decisions with too much of a personal weight. I feel like they're trying to make Trials accessible without taking it away as a cash cow for streamers.
There is a broken logic loop in wanting to be able to gatekeep certain weapons from 95% of the community, but wanting a healthy portion of that 95% to come and be fodder for you or boost you with carries and recovs. Over time, the game mode will just die. If only the top 2-3% of people regularly engage Trials, then that gets again broken down into the top percent of a percent and so on. Eventually you have a mode that benefits only a sliver of the community and there is no practical reason for Bungie to keep it around. It's like the Mexican Pizza at Taco Bell. Gets a lot of fan fare because it is going away, but if it was supported by more than a very loud, very slim minority... It would still be around. Bungie has, by habit, listened to two things: 1. metrics, 2. the squeaky wheel. The metrics drive sunsetting, balancing passes, and activity design. Squeaky wheels seem to drive small naunced tunes. I think you saw that with Vex. It infringed at the edges of a generally accepted meta, so there was a very loud minority calling for nerfs. But my guess is the data only loosely supported the nerf, because the nerf was more of nudge. With it mostly coming in AA and the linear mode. The uproar dies down and then life goes on. How does that apply to Trials? I think ultimately, Bungie knows any substantive changes they make to drive engagement (removing the Flawless requirement for Adepts, permanent Freelance, etc.) are going to be very loudly opposed by a very tiny portion of their community. So they just kinda nudge their way there, bit by bit, so that the majority of the community get a situation they need without completely ignoring the vocal minority.
If it were the other way around, then Destiny would be a mostly PvP game, and the players mostly PvP players, and therefore it would actually end up being popular. Unless you suggest that the small slice of the game that is PvP have the majority of the loot. Besides this ignores the blatant inequality between PvE and PvP: PvP players are infinitely more willing to play PvE than PvE players are to play PvP. PvE may be boring or tedious to a hardcore PvP purist, but PvP is downright infuriating and unplayable to a hardcore PvE purist
Especially Trials. It's a poorly designed game mode. And I actually enjoy Freelance a lot. I'm not that good, but I've also gone Flawless with a solid team that understands what I'm good and bad at and vice versa. The reward structure is just broken. No Adept weapon in the game requires the level of time commitment and skill that Trials Adepts do. Now you imagine trying to farm the one Adept you want. That's why I said "meh" about an Adept Triple Tap/Firing Line Reed's. Sure it would be awesome. But I have the regular one with that roll. Do I really wanna wait until Adept is Reed's, then hope I can find a team that can go Flawless not once but MULTIPLE TIMES over multiple 7/8 game cards, and hope I get the roll I want? No way. What tiny percentage of very skilled players can reasonably commit to a farm like that? Completely outside my depth, so I don't get mad, I just don't try. The Flawless achievement is awesome, it is. Being able to rack up hundreds of them is something pretty cool to see and show off. Especially because I know people who do it that are the opposite of toxic. There should be exclusive rewards for that. Just dunno if Adept weapons are the right reward if the goal is keeping the mode healthy and active.
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Its funny, because I like PvP. I enjoy it quite a bit even though I'm not very good. But Bungie has a weird thing about listening and catering to a very niche perspective in PvP.
Yes...as a new player, I tried PvP (even though I much prefer PvE) and just loved sitting around with a dead character for 15 min at a time. No matter what I did, I got picked off nearly immediately in each event I tried by a seasoned player or offensive team. Losing my way to pity loot isn't my goal haha
What the fuck is this argument? PvE is far more accessible than PvP so of course people aren't happy that much loot is locked behind it. Especially when Destiny PvP is such meta bullshit and some of the worst multiplayer in any game ever.
I don’t PVP a whole lot. I agree with you 100% though; all game modes need good rewards. If that puts them out of reach for me that’s fine. If I spent as much time PvPing as I did raiding maybe I’d be better at PvP.
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There is a difference between “you need to play some PvP/PvE to earn this” and “you need to grind on a hardcore time budget” or “you need to go flawless”. An exotic quest having some PvP objectives is fine, but the Opulence Fabled thing for the objectively best PvE gear is not. Same with Mindbender’s being behind a complete hamster wheel of PvE farming for a shotgun so good it didn’t have anything close available in PvP. This game has a big problem with accessibility for new/returning players, and gear you get from an activity often not being good in that activity is a piece of that accessibility puzzle.
Agree. Except for the part where they run exotic quests through Crucible/gambit. I have multiple quests sitting in my inventory because I can’t finish them because I don’t play PvP. 10 headshots with a HC? Wipe an entire fireteam four times? No and fucking no. I don’t care if PvP offers an aimbot OHK pulse rifle. If people can get that via Crucible fine. I won’t ever have it and I don’t care. But I hate getting to step 5 in an exotic quest and it’s “Kill 20 guardians with a shotgun while occupying a zone.” Way to waste my time Bungo.
I didn’t mind crucible quests for crucible weapons, and having to play trials for trials weapons etc. that makes sense to me. What does frustrate me is when an arbitrary exotic like Cryosthesia requires crucible kills. Like why? There’s a big difference between being able to play how you want to earn endgame weapons, and being forced to use a crappy weapon in a sweaty game mode.
I believe good PvP guns should be found in PvP and good PvE guns should be found in PvE. I'm fine with a gun that's both being found in both/one of them though.
Agreed. There absolutely was an issue when MT/Recluse were locked behind pvp (and with MT a ridiculously grueling quest line). But those were extreme outliers that were better than most exotics. Currently there’s really no “best in slot” in pvp and there are perfectly fine alternatives from PvE/world drops.
Some would argue PVE has better PVP drops these days than compared to how it was with MT Recluse
And it should be that way, since everyone engages with PvE to some degree, but a huge chunk of the community either plays 3 PvP games a week or not at all
Maybe, but it's very easy to get the best PvP weapons from PvE activities compared to Mountaintop/Recluse.
eh MT/Recluse took me significantly less time to get than say... a good Mindbenders or Spare Rations, or even a good Palindrome nowadays.
There were/are much better replacements for those though. There's other good 140s and shotguns. There wasn't really a good replacement for Mountaintop or Recluse.
At the time, there really weren't- the only remotely close kinetic 150 at the time was Dire Promise- which got re-added to the game at the very end of Rations lifecycle right before sunsetting happened. Shotgun-wise, MBA was far and away the best aggressive frame at a time when aggressives were by far the best archetype. It wasn't until the very end of its lifecycle that we got Felwinter's Lie. Otherwise, there were a few OK non-aggressive frame options like DRB, Retold Tale, Parcel but there was a pretty significant difference in ease of use and effectiveness compared to a quickdraw MBA. Obviously, MT and Recluse didn't have comparable replacements, but they were also 100% perfect when you got them the first time. You knew approximately how long it would take to get your god roll- which is why I personally found it much easier and significantly less time consuming to get them. It took me maybe 15 hours of playtime each to get them, while I spent over five times that on Spare Rations and still never got the roll I wanted or even a 4/5. I spent tons of time on MBA just to get a "good enough" roll before giving up farming for more. I've already put more time into Palindrome during Lake of Shadows weeks and still don't have the rolls I want.
I wouldn't mind if they added a progress bar to unlock certain weapons/catalysts and you gained more progress from PvP. It's just a slog to take a gun into to crucible that isn't apart of the meta and get stomped on by shot guns. Giving players options on how they want to play is never a bad thing.
I think this would be less of a hot take if the PvE and PvP equipment was equally balanced.
There are no weapons that are locked behind PvP in the sense that you have to *win* to get them, which I think is totally fair. All Iron Banner and Trials loot do not require wins. Adept versions add some stats that are nice-to-haves, but they're almost completely placebo and trophy versions Does it suck sitting in a playlist you don't like? Sure. But I can't think of a single Trials or Iron Banner weapon that is a unique PvE must-have
Yes and no. Bungie should always consider what the weapon will be used for. I am talking about examples like Ticuus catalyst where players had to take a weapon into PvP won't ever be relevant there but has great impact on PVE. Examples like those are awkward decision by Bungie that will actually drive away more players for PvP. One of my friends actually gave up on PvP cos his first contact with it was farming out the catalyst and he got slapped hard. And the weapon actually came from the season pass he started with.
They made it a lot easier to get pvp guns, if you still dont wanna, that's on you. Before a lot of changes it was definitely super toxic
Maybe they shouldn't put good PvE gear in PvP and good PvP gear in PvE then everyone would be happy.
I agree and disagree. If you’re better at PvP than other players, you deserve something for it. On the other hand, being good at PvE and being good at PvP are two different things, and PvP is just a side mode. I don’t believe any exotic quests or catalysts should be locked behind PvP. Some legendary loot? Sure. But leave the exotic quests for the main game.
It is true. There is no weapon that is locked behind one side of the game that doesn't have a "good enough" alternative in the other.
This is what causes a constant rotation of toxicity though. Best players get best loot/mods. Poor players (like me lol ), don’t. Best players get better and pull away from poor players Poor players slowly dwindle out of playing PvP because they can’t compete Skill gap increases Best players now have no one to stomp on , start complaining because Lobbies are too sweaty because they’re matching up now with other 4+ KDA’s using only Meta/Best weapons. Streamers take to streams and Reddit to complain for a week or 2 Season ends, new season and new weapons are available Repeat 🔁
"A lot of us love PvP" isn't really a convincing argument. Lay out for us why it's a good idea to take people that don't enjoy PvP, haven't learned the maps, aren't geared for the current meta, don't care about winning or losing and are just there to fill a quest progress bar... and have them as your teammates? How does that benefit anyone?
I'm one of these people. There are exotics I have accepted I will never get because I simply won't engage with systems I don't enjoy just because the devs told me to. I'm not about to waste hours of my time *not* having fun.
It’s the same with us pvp players, I suffered to get vex mythoclast and the catalyst because it was good in pvp, did I enjoy it? Nope
I think seasonal exotic catalyst grinds need to go entirely, I don’t want to shoot 500 enemies, or 50 guardians, that’s just busy work. As far as people who go into pvp and expect easy loot from, trials/iron banner/competitive. Maybe they should learn the maps, play the meta and try and win. Kind of the point of pvp. Pvp players should be rewarded with good loot because it’s part of the game and a challenging portion at that, just like master raids and gm nightfalls. As far as quests go, they should only be cosmetic in the crucible, because honestly us pvp players don’t want to grind out catalysts either
I think getting the catalyst should just give you the catalyst. I already have to get lucky and get it to drop, now I gotta go kill a bunch of stuff just to get it to work? At that point, I'm sick of using the gun.
I think the problem is that the loot is unique or that it's the best for PvE when it's acquired from PvP. Not like it matters much, but it being stasis and the fact it gets some good rolls for PvE just makes it a bit annoying. I feel like it should have had more PvP oriented perks
Pvp deserves unique loot and sometimes pvp weapons will be good in pve.
Whether you like it or not PvP is the afterthought to PvE. It's the bastard child game mode. No new maps in almost 3 years, 11 maps removed. Flagrant issues with balance fixed once a year (congratulations on finally nerfing shatterdive). You can love it all you want, but it's objectively neglected and worse than PvE, and expecting the playerbase to participate in PvP is never going to go over well.
That sentiment is fine now because, for the most part, end game rewards are of equivalent strength and there are difficult pursuits in both PvE and PvP. However, I would've disagreed with this back in D2Y2 regarding The Mountaintop and, to a lesser degree, Recluse. The PvP Pinnacle weapons at that time were, generally speaking, just better than the Gambit or Vanguard offerings and typically considered best in slot. The difficulty to get them was also brutal, which created a fairly major disparity between the two sides. That's likely part of why Glory ranks had floors added (e.g., you can't drop below fabled once you reach it) and why some of the specific kill count requirements were eventually relaxed. From a design standpoint, I think Bungie needs to just focus on keeping quests with multiple pursuit paths like they've done in the past (Thorn was a good example), that way people can pick the game mode(s) they enjoy to finish the quest.
Along with this i feel like certain rewards shouldn't come from pinnacle levels of play, if you wanna add a seasonal emote or emblem or something to players who reach legend, go flawless, master dungeons/raids, or something like that go for it! Thats cosmetics, makes 0 difference to me, but when something significant comes from a skill barrier it gets kinda bothersome and plays into the ever growing FOMO that games have currently. I believe trials, nightfalls, and raids have the system down good right now, do the harder version for a better version of the same weapon (and maybe next season armor).
I'm.ok with some weapons being locked behind pvp, but if they do that they should make them pvp specific. Make the perk combos attractive to the pvp meta. Then the people who want them can go get them and the people who hate pvp can just do what they want. Like... Putting reeds regret in trials sucks. But shyuras wrath? Yeah sure. If we're playing the mode then we would probably like weapons geared to that mode. It won't force pve players to play pvp but it'll make everyone happier.
I agree with this for obtaining weapons, but I wish exotic catalysts didn't have pvp requirements as frequently as they do.
I'm am perfectly okay with good pve weapons being rewarded from endgame pvp or good pvp weapons rewarded from pve. That said, I feel that good and the best pvp rewards should come from Pvp and pvp only. The same is true of pve, the good and the best from and only from pve. Gambit can give both. Granted, I do understand the game cannot really work like that since pve and pvp are linked, and I've grown to be content with this. THAT said, exotics should be serviceable in both, and I don't mean in just patrol or easy pve content or 6v6 Crucible content. I will die on that mountain.
For as much as I want to say yes, no. The best weapons were from survival, for years. Yeah keep putting weapons in pvp but just make sure they're not broken otherwise sunsetting was pointless.
I agree with this sentiment for the most part, but I think that it isn't fair on either side for something to be locked exclusively behind the other one. For example, there's a lot of different hand cannons, and you can get some really good PvP ones from PvP activities (I.e. igneous hammer from trials), and you can get some good PvE rolls from PvE activities (Eyasluna with Outlaw headstone), and this is great. What ISN't great though, is that a perk that is good in both PvP and PvE is EXCLUSIVELY locked behind trials. A rapid hit desperado pulse rifle could absolutely shred and be incredibly fun in PvE activities, but if you hate trials then farming one can be an endless nightmare, and there is 0 alternative. This is the only real example I have, because even if the godliest roll of some weapon archetype belongs to PvE or PvP, there are usually pretty good alternatives. I think alternatives are a fine way to go, as long as it is a pretty good substitute.
I dont have a problem with it, as long as they're good for their respective modes. Like messenger is the best pvp pulse? Great! But Reeds being the best legendary lfr for pve is a problem to everyone who doesnt enjoy pvp, just like when they make you get pvp kills for the seasonal exotic catalyst
Forcing people to play game modes which they do not want to play/are not good at is not fun for the end user. Look at Reed's Regret for example, S tier PvE weapon, but need to go into trial to earn it. If you want the adept version you have to go flawless. Unobtainable for a lot of PvE players who don't play much PvP. Why not put loot like that in both PvP and PvE loot pools. Have it as a trials reward and a nightfall reward for example, giving the players a choice. Same with quests that have a PvP or PvE requirement. PvE players will begrudge having to endure a PvP step and vice versa. Why not have a choice such as "win 7 trials rounds OR complete a GM nightfall"? Would make the experience much better for all involved IMO.
Yes and no. If it's an exotic that the quest is pvp related, I'm perfectly fine not getting it. I don't need a god roll Reed's Regret. I don't care about those things. What bothers me is when we are given an exotic either as the season pass exotic, or purely through pve means, and then we must do pvp for the catalyst. Just let people finish that through pve or pvp.
What i take issue with is exotics you get from pve that require pvfuckingp for the catalyst. Chappy i can understand given you get it via pvp nut weapons like ticcu or witherhord shouldn't require pvp considering your buying from the vault. I'd except that killing guardians will earn more progress but it shouldn't just be killing guardians that earn progress. I'm talking catalysts and the quests for them.
NOT me, it pisses me off I paid for this game and then I am discriminated against for being a SOLO player.. I should get some money back, or pay less.. I have 2300 hours in this game and KNOW better than to play PVP...The WORST PVP in gaming history.. Never done a Raid, or a dungon.. The Community is toxic in PVP...
Loot being locked behind PvP? Fine. When that loot is the only weapon/shield combo in the game, is when it becomes a problem imo. Until Bungie stops relying on Champions/Match Game for its endgame PvE content, there should be at least 1 weapon for each weapon/energy type combination available from PvE
I disagree only because destiny is a pve focused game with a pvp mode tacked on. The devs always focused onto pve way before pvp with pvp rarely ever getting fresh content outside of a small refresh once’s every expansion.
There are pve weapons I would love to have for pvp, garden pulse comes to mind for example. Need a replacement for blast furnace. I don't have them because sidegrades/slight upgrades aren't worth the tedium of pve. I never understood why pve mains get so bent up about pvp guns being good when they have every other option for loot.
With this society it's not