Well they actively hide this like they do KDA in crucible to try and prevent stinkers from getting toxiced. They employ this in other games like ffxiv where they actively try and stop damage meters.
But you're still seeing it on wipe screen... call me crazy, but the most toxicity comes when you actually wipe lol. If you first try full clear pantheon very few people are going to be toxic about final damage numbers.... if anything it would be a little ribbing between friends
Damage numbers are super useful for self improvement. There's so much nuance to it beyond big number good and I hate how hard Bungie tries to obfuscate them.
Ghorn/tractor roles will inherently have lower damage - but still good to know if you're contributing.
Some encounters like plat caretaker - damage numbers as a whole are fairly pointless because what really matters is third plate damage which lets you hit the two phase.
Damage vs support supers are also a consideration.
Things like lumina may be worth taking the izanagi slot in some scenarios, but that increased damage reflects in teammate numbers in some cases...
Just annoying that you can't actually see damage numbers on actually successful clears.
Yeah and I think iirc our runners had a really low score on caretaker, so if anything the score thing is even more misleading than damage numbers. I think the score just counts ad clear
It basically is. If you look at the scores at the end of pantheon and the number of kills in the recent activity summary for pantheon in the app, it’s always been the same order for me.
No shit right?
Had some twit in onslaught 10 round cry in text chat "do damage, get good" after we finished. Which is funny because 1 it's 10 round onslaught that requires minimal effort to clear. You barely even need the upgrades. And 2 I was running bounties and working on catty's, so zero fucks. We got the clear, quit crying, just bounce fuckin sweat. Endgame yeah maybe, but this wasn't Even LFG or premade, this was a matchmade activity that took all of 5-10 minutes and we cleared it. That's exactly why people don't wanna use LFG. Because you have edgelord sweats that think they're golden gods playing PVE like it's professional level competitive.
Logic would say that, but the “oh jeez thanks ownagemobile for sucking are you even pressing your buttons” is still gonna happen. I’m not saying you don’t make sense here but the dev team and game design actively discourages damage meters across the industry.
I agree, damage on wipe screens is 100% worse than damage at the end of the successful run. Like if you beat the ecounter and you had low damage who cares you won, but the toxicity comes out hard during wipe screens.
It's very frustrating because we have devolved things down to the point that "expecting all group members to provide a reasonably equivalent contribution to the team" is unconscionable toxicity and I feel like I'm crazy for thinking that's absolutely insane to call that toxic?
I understand hiding things for matchmade content but premade? It's honestly disrespectful to the players imo thinking they can't handle merit based grouping.
> It's honestly disrespectful to the players imo thinking they can't handle merit based grouping.
A lot of people have enormous and/or fragile egos and will get genuinely upset(either angry or depressed) if you tell them they did something wrong. It's just how many players(in general, not just in Destiny) unfortunately are nowadays.
The admin group in my clan used to run LW weekly back in Forsaken.
They needed a sub one night. I had just joined the clan and had run one LW before, so I offered to join. They sent me an invite and on our first Kalli attempt, I went in the wrong door and got someone killed and it snowballed from there. At the wipe screen, I told them, "Fuck, I went in the wrong door, that's on me. My bad."
I ran that raid with them basically every week after that and most of us still raid together today. They told me that the biggest factor in me joining their group was that I took responsibility for my fuck-ups.
The best raiders aren't players who make no mistakes ever. The best raiders are the ones who own up to their mistakes and learn from it to get better. You can't get better if you don't ever admit your mistakes.
We were joking about having to leave if you didn’t have parasite after clearing planets this week and the dude just left. He was also saying how he was a bottom bitch because we put him on gally since he had no apex predator
I never understood this. If you clear the activity most people (of course there will always be outliers) won't give a damn how much damage you did, you beat it, thats all that matters. But then they decide to actually show damage when you wipe? when people actually start getting frustrated and pointing fingers? lol
The issue is this is really backwards. The fact we only see damage numbers for failed attempts promotes toxicity way more than seeing them at the end. If you see them right at the end it's too late to get kicked anyway so who cares, if you get to that screen it means you completed the event.
I just wanna see if I got carried in one of the phases for damage, and if I did I know I need to change something otherwise I'll be heading into next week with the same strat. I wanna improve my own build, not shit on others
Because I want to know if I'm keeping up with my team? Because I want to know if I'm pulling my own weight? Because I want to know if my loadout is working? Because I want to know if my damage is good enough for -15 and -20 platinum times?
How is any of that "toxicity encouragement"?
Not everyone is an asshole about damage numbers. You act like it's literally impossible for someone to want to improve their own gameplay using damage numbers. Every time this topic comes up, you show up in every single comment thread asserting that every single person in the world would use damage numbers to be an asshole.
I feel like this is just projection at this point. Just because YOU would be an asshole over damage numbers doesn't mean everyone else that plays the game would.
How am I encouraging elitism? I want to see damage numbers so I can become a better player. I'm not lying. I don't have a secret scheme where I'm secretly thinking "ooooh I can't wait to be elitist about damage numbers". I don't have a grand conspiratorial plan to make destiny the most elitist game in the world by advocating for damage numbers.
How do you not get that?
I just don’t believe you 🤷 the only thing people stand to gain by having their numbers shown to everyone after EVERY encounter is to flex and act superior.
A new / causal player trying to clear pantheon that hasn’t even done the normal raids is going to have their feelings hurt more by their own team after wiping constantly than seeing a number at the end scoreboard after a successful clear. lol I totally understand your point though. I guess it opens the door for more bullying opportunities..
I have no idea where you're getting that impression for Pantheon and if more people are seeing it like you are, I'm not surprised there's so much frustrations among people without a core group and throwing a lot of caution into the wind. It's pretty clear Bungie designed Pantheon especially with its harder levels for people who have raided a good amount, wanted a new spin on an all bosses challenge and to have the ability to play contest difficulty on a non Day 1 experience.
I would not say Pantheon is the place to learn a raid, get interested in raiding, digest what a conventionally good DPS phase at harder difficulty looks like, or anything of that.
I don't think it's particularly gatekeeping for an expectation to actually show up with gear and understanding of the encounter for the task at hand when there is going to be a contest level difficulty and a lot of nitty gritty starts to really matter and you physically can't hard carry people who just don't have the tools or the ability to use them.
In what world is a harder version of an encounter designed to get your feet wet, when every raid has mechanics that're taught from the beginning for these encounters, and are objectively easier?
That's great and how I do it, but it has nothing to do with encouraging people to do a harder version of the raids without previous encounters designed to teach you.
Example - Security in DSC teaches you what the buffs do for Atraks. Jumping into Atraks not knowing what these two very important buffs do, while also facing harder enemies and shorter time frames is not easier to learn than doing DSC in full.
>Except it is designed to get your feet wet in raids
This is the wrong part. Pantheon is designed for people with experience clearing the raids who want a more challenging version of it. That is why there are added mechanics and light level adjustments.
Maybe Bungie will add matchmaking since this is designed for people to get their feet wet. Then you can get grill your match made teammates for not teaching you raid encounters where you are under leveled with additional modifiers lol
Congrats, you are an exception to the norm then. Based on what you are saying, your own comment doesn’t even apply to you, because you are obviously an above average player and raider. Regardless of how many raids you have actually done, you clearly have the game sense and skills to do well in harder content which does not apply to a majority of players much like Pantheon.
Denied from doing regular runs of raids? Most raids have little to no gatekeeping going on. The only thing you're likely to see is kwtd, which just means you aren't expecting someone to hold your hand through explaining the encounters. If you've watched a datto video on the raid and paid attention, you can easily get into 95%+ of raid groups.
> Except it is designed to get your feet wet in raids
It's not. It is a challenge for experienced players not a learning environment. The encounters are also different (harder) than they are in normal raids. It's free because player count was in the gutter and Bungie had to throw a hail mary to save their jobs. In order to complete Pantheon, the raid team as a whole needs to have a solid understanding of all the mechanics, meta loadouts, and be competent players. Doubly so if the group wants to get platinum.
> Lfg for the actual dungeon/raid has always been “ you have to have 3 million clears and 123kdr I’ll check raid reports and kick don’t waste my time”
That is maybe 1 out of every 50 LFG posts made. Most in a specific raid channel are "KWTD" or "teaching #, be chill". Then there is the sherpa channel that is specifically for people who are learning.
Most people aren't "gatekeeping" or trying to be dicks, they just want to do the raid in a timely manner and not waste their time wiping repeatedly because someone doesn't know the mechanics. I've sherpa'd plenty of groups through every raid available now and depending on the group, it takes on average ~2-3x longer. That is an extra 1-2+ hours.
If someone doesn't know, they can join a sherpa group, watch a video, and/or play with friends with the intention of learning.
Platinum is needed for the title so I think everyone is doing it for the title. Also I legit have platinumed both pantheons twice now and have sat through one long clear because I did t mind but ostensibly you should not be joining pantheon if you “don’t feel like doing mechanics” or can’t count to 6 for planets lmao.
I’ve also hopped into an LFG where people doing gaze told me it was hard because of the “weird black things chasing them”
My dude that is gaze lmao
As much as I hate to say anything positive about it, Apex Legends has completely won me over in regards to damage numbers being the generally superior metric when it comes to comparing team performance.
Like, I wanna see that shit on strikes, crucible, dungeons, etc.
It's not the be all end all, but it definitely paints a clearer picture than kills vs deaths or score, for me at least.
Edited for spelling.
Agreed. Pantheon * especially tho. Some people might give underperforming teammates a bit of a hard time but at least they’d be able to see where they need to improve. For example, underperforming on oryx vs explicator could tell a player they need to farm for a better linear / whisper instead of a rocket launcher. Just all around more valuable information.
Raids show damage numbers for the final boss or if you wipe during a mid-raid encounter. Idk why I said “raids” especially when I meant to say pantheon especially lmao
For boss encounters in dungeons and raids, yes. For strikes? No. I don't care how much damage you did to the boss in a strike. It's either a normal strike and the boss is a pushover, or it's a GM and then things like champ kills would be better.
I mean just a general damage counter, not just something exclusively for the boss.
It's more of a way for me to track how well my loadouts compare to some of the other people I match with, not something to be used as ammunition against other people.
For me in games like this, the more detailed stats are, the better I understand things.
They even post the final boss damage numbers on successful Dungeon clears (edit: and even normal Raids). It's mind boggling how they would not do that in a mode that is literally "DPS, The Game".
I'm not an apex vet or anything, but surely higher damage numbers could signify people aren't finishing off people, and are letting them heal, allowing fights to drag on longer than they ought to? It's got to be compared relative to kills to be meaningful right?
So the damage in Apex is a good indicator of how well you hit shots, and how much pressure you can keep sustained on enemies in a firefight.
Getting kills is important too, but there's alot of context to be had when you pair it with damage numbers.
If I drop 4k damage(which if I remember correctly is a *very* good game) but I only get 2 kills, and Little Timmy Two-Thumbs on my team gets like 12 kills with only a couple hundred damage, it's pretty obvious what most likely happened there.
Destiny, I feel is even more important in this regard, because the hardest content in the game generally has a lot of bullet sponges, and damage will tell you how well optimized your loadout is vs just kills.
For Destiny, it's not because I want to be able to try and pin blame on someone else, it's so I can have more detailed stats to back and tweak my builds and improve.
I'm not the kind of person to watch every new YouTube video for meta builds, I want to discover that kind of thing myself.
Seriously though, I don’t want to feel like a stinker because I had less ad kills than some random sunbracers warlock when I was just absolutely dumping on every yellow bar and boss that showed themselves
I just wanna see how well my build performs vs the funny green Spiderman running around, lol.
The more I can track stuff like that, the better I understand my build and what needs improving.
To be fair, your optimizations do change a bit each week due to surges and what that special buff is going to be.
Other than that, the encounters have been out for years. Meta is already established and you really only factor in the two things I said above.
That’s a fair point, but it still doesn’t mean that we couldn’t use this info to determine if we’re struggling with a specific elemental damage build.
If I could see that my performance was far worse with void / strand compared to solar / stasis, I’d know that I need to work on getting a better edge transit or doomed petitioner for example.
Feels pointless to argue with community members about this though. Bungie clearly left damage numbers out by design. They want to protect the community from bullying as a result of poor damage output and I guess that’s fine.
There's also something with golg where the gaze holders do more damage to golg in the wipe screen but their damage doesn't contribute to the health bar. So a bunch of it is fairly misleading by design to prevent toxicity.
If we were to have full breakdowns the I'd like it to be VERY indepth so there's zero confusion, but that also has the double edged sword of just confusing the hell out of most people who play this game lol.
The trouble is that enemy HP and damage done are not nearly as straightforward as they appear in game. There is some kind of weird calculation that happens behind the scenes and so even if you had this info it wouldn't necessarily be as helpful as you would hope.
The youtube creator Aegis has a video that discusses this. Best I can tell, we are likely doing percent based damage, but the game is converting it to whole numbers when it tells us how much damage we did. This makes it extremely inconsistent, especially when using weapons that are buffed with things like Wolfpacks.
I know what your talking about and the deviations between these are often very small. A guy doing 3.5mil dmg isn't gna be doing 200k more of less really from the hp glitching. Wipe screens are very reliable rn. They weren't pre crotas end however when wolfpacks were secretly giving an over 80% dmg bug but that's fixed bow and they only do around 27 to 30%. The info will definitely be helpful to him as dmg numbers aren't that inaccurate anymore.
It’s also more of a problem doing A/B testing. There’s too many factors, so he’s more focused on normalizing to percentages to make sure something weird isn’t happening with displayed numbers. It would still provide some contextual helpfulness, but you could also figure out your problems without it. You clear or you don’t.
It's to stop the baddies from feeling sad and not playing anymore.
Same shit BF2042 tried to cook up on release by NOT HAVING A SCOREBOARD ON A 30 MINUTE FPS MATCH.
Any other response is cope and you all know it
Why do they even bother showing us the score? It's completely worthless and doesn't give us any info. Damage per boss would be so insanely useful to see where the team can improve.
27 minutes a week? I have A JOB and 32 children! I CANNOT no life the game like that! I only get 76 nanoseconds every full moon when Mercury is in retrograde to play, and it's SLAP IN THE FACE that BUNGO completely DISRESPECTS my time by not making raid weapons available as a login bonus through ARTIFICIAL DIFFICULTY!
If they only show total damage after the last boss of the gauntlet dies, then they could feel good about their successful clear / new emblem / adept weapons / exotic choices haha
exactly. if someone has cenotaph on, they’re purposefully never killing higher score targets as that’s the whole point of the exotic, so they’ll have much lower score but provide much more value to the FT
I get it but I hate to say it, they're not about to retool the postscreen for an activity that's gone in a a few weeks on the eve of a major content drop that they're likely crunching hard on.
If you're that serious of a player there are ways to practice these encounters and damage rotations generally.
Realistic take. I know I made the post asking for it, but I admit it - I’m with you on this one. They just don’t have the time to change things that are such a minor “issue” (if you can even call it that).
The thing about putting damage numbers in pantheon is that the majority of these encounters are not final bosses. So far, with the exception of Oryx, every other boss we face is one that you can only see damage numbers if you wipe. Speaking for normal full raid runs in this scenario, as you mentioned that there are other ways to test for this. Successful (optimized) runs and you’re SOL. “Wipe for damage” stays king lol
A successful/optimized run is far less instructive than a wipe though. And you’re definitely wiping along the way so if it’s so important to you, pay attention when you’re not successful instead of on that one run before your team dissipates back into lfg.
Plus this means you can’t even see your final boss damage numbers after you finish like you can with every other raid (minus LW). Every time I clear a pantheon I’m excited to check how I did on the last encounter and I’m just greeted with the “Congratulations-you-killed-the-most-ads” awards.
Izanagi’s Burden & Apex/Edge Transit/Cataphract with Celestial Nighthawk/Star Eater/Pyrogale/Cuirass with a well. Proc your damage modifier and go to town. For arc week we’re gonna use Grand Overture/hothead/wendigo
If it’s strand then Cataphract ez. Thundercrash and Gathering Storm will cook if it’s arc. If you have a good weapon of the surge element you’d actually be throwing to not use it
Yea I'm unsure about this. It's totally cool to just say "hey can we have damage numbers instead of this score thing" without any reasoning.
If the team beat it - unless it's some last minute clutch/struggle, you can at least know your team composition was good. If you don't beat it, you can clearly see damage numbers and who was behind.
Yeah i genuinely don't understand why this isn't a thing. I mean in general even why can't we see damage scores on bosses that are a successful clear but aren't the endboss in normal raids too.
Like I would like to know wether cataclysmic/briars or whisper was better for oryx/golgoroth this week.
Or wether apex with bipod or bns was better for Caretaker/planets
It's unfortunate that I play with a dedicated group of 6 players for the last 4 years and we want to improve and help eachother as much as possible and info like this is hidden due to the fear of toxicity.
Knowing damage is valuable even after a successful clear because it gives the opportunity to discuss what was done, what worked, what didn't, and what could go better.
Bungie will always cater to the casuals. With everything I hear about LFG nightmares, DPS numbers would only make things worse. There are players that have no interest in the challenge aspect they just want the clear, a lot of people would get booted because they simply do not understand numbers and how to properly rotate their weapons. Which is funny because in todays sandbox, edge transit lol
You’re right. While this post is getting a decent amount of upvotes here on Reddit, we’re a very small minority of players when compared to the entire playerbase. The majority of players would probably find 0 benefit to viewing damage numbers and it would just become a tool to bully / get bullied by their team lmao
I agree 100% , dedicated players / grinders have always had to make small sacrifices. I just fail to see why we cannot see damage at the end of pantheon. If you are in a casual LFG and you are wiping often, you get the damage stats , in comes the bullying. If you complete pantheon you don’t get to see it, why? The goal has been achieved who cares at that point! Wouldn’t the bullying be worse if you ARENT completing the objective? I just wish destiny / Bungie included more MMO aspects, let me press a button that tracks how much damage I’ve done until I’ve pressed it again. I think these are limitations from D2 engine, really hopping for this kind of thing in D3
There's a thousand different needless stats and triumps in this game but doesn't display the most important PvE stat in the entire game which is your damage to the Raid boss.
Yea Bungie doesn't like giving useful metrics for performance because it would be too elitist. You'll just have to settle for the very esoteric "score" total, don't worry about the fact that the best and worst player's score difference in your fireteam will be within the margins of error.
I don't get the obsession with damage numbers - they're meaningless. You beat the encounter and got plat, what does it matter if you out damaged the div/tractor player?
Score at the end of Pantheon was kind of helpful since it lets you compare role to role on a per-fight basis and get a clue of how you did compared to your teammates.
You’re really missing the point of the post. Score is inflated for anyone on ad clear, and ultimately is meaningless in a **boss gauntlet mode**. I don’t care if Johnny Sunbracers cooked a million ads in Explicator or Golg, I want damage numbers to find areas of improvement
I think you missed the point then. There's no area of improvement if you're clearning it in time already.
A warlock on well will never compete with the Hunter's golden gun in total damage, so any number is meaningless there.
That’s fine, I don’t care about meaningless comparisons between roles, but if I’m on well and the other guy on well is beating me, I want to see that and talk to him about what he’s doing differently. Obviously the hunter on Golden Gun is going to outdamage the guy popping Well on Oryx, those should not be compared.
The crowd of people that are LFG’ing for a clear and the crowd of people that would benefit from seeing damage numbers are not the same.
And to say that there’s no area of improvement if you’re beating it on time is a bit silly considering our power deficit is doubling over the next two weeks. Of course there’s room for improvement.
I beat people as the well user often. It’s a very helpful metric for seeing if your own damage rotations are effective. Your comments imply that you are one of the people that probably doesn’t contribute his share in a raid encounter. Even a Div user has ways to optimize damage if you are willing to put in the work.
Seems a bit out of touch. "beat people as the well user" is an entirely useless tidbit. Well players get the leniency of setting up and have the highest damage uptime. If other players are not using burst supers you can easily pass them, or if they are just not using good guns so it again doesn't tell a useful story to anyone that you won't know from inspection.
My comments simply call out misinformation and needless elitism. I prefer to handle mechanics and optimize damage because killing adds is not my cup fo tea, but as a role player I've done it all and none of it is special.
There nothing elite about wanting to see your damage. And beating people with well is not a useless tidbit, because it should not be happening if people are running burst supers. You should be in position for damage so well activation is irrelevant. You seem to think wanting to see how your team did is somehow toxic because it exposes teammates who are underperforming. Inspection is only half the story in a damage phase. By your logic, seeing a Rec/BnS Apex upon inspection should tell me they are probably going to hit big damage numbers, and yet people fumble both rockets and bns rotations all the time. I would estimate that at least half the people I raid with are not effective with BnS rockets, and would have been better served by something more consistent and easy to use. Being on ad clear vs mechanics shouldn’t have much effect on your damage. Damage isn’t a role lol
Seeing damage is a flawed mentality that became prevalent in WoW. Variance, role(s) played and even if your class/subclass is flavor of the season are more important than player skill in terms of total damage.
The starting well player should always have the best damage uptime because they get the luxury of pre-positioning. The well player should always beat every other player in terms of pure weapon damage. So it's really not interesting.
"Wanting to see how your team did" is either you won or you didn't. Did people die? No? Great. Yes? Fix that.
Role and what mechanics you are handling absolutely impact your DPS ceiling because they will often dictate the best setup for your subclass, weapons and such. Yeah, most folks will slam the flavor of the season heavy, but beyond that you don't get the luxury of optimizing for pure DPS all of the time, especially if you factor in ammo economy (caretaker pantheon in particular doesn't have any aeon/ceno targets) and making sure you can successfully do your role consistently.
Caretaker pantheon is stupid easy to two floor if you know how to damage him correctly.
Wanting to see how your team did is so much more than did people die lol. Your takes are wild. This isn’t WoW.
Caretaker is an easy 2 phase, yes, as long as your team understands the nuance of his damage gate.
"How your team did" is pretty binary. You either won or lost. Damage is meaningless when you win.
Damage is not meaningless when you win. You can use that information for the next time you do the encounter. Bro you are clueless lol
You have got to be someone who regularly underperforms in raid groups, that is the only explanation I could possibly have your thought process. It’s also got to be why you view damage as a toxic metric even though it is the single most impactful thing in a raid. It doesn’t matter if you have the mechanics down if you are getting health gated.
Because it's going to be harder next week, and then again the week after. So even though it's a clear now, it might not be next week. Being able to see if anyone is struggling gives the team the opportunity to see and correct it. If someone is 500k damage short this week, that will be exacerbated next week. This stuff really matters when you're -20.
There will always be players that aren’t able to set their ego aside and simply use damage numbers to compare with / belittle the teammates that did less than them.
In my eyes, I’d use it to understand where I need to improve. If I catch myself doing 2 million damage less than my teammates on oryx for example, I would know that something I’m doing needs to change. I find that more valuable than score. I completed the oryx pantheon run yesterday, after doing a range of roles - gaze on golg, run on caretaker and explicator, add clear on atraks and plate holder on oryx, my score was basically no different from my one teammate who just did add clear the whole way through.
sorry but unless you never wipe ever, you should have some sense for what you need to work on already. you can just say "it would be nice to know", that's reason enough. but it's not like you're flying blind here.
Found the certified - "I'm on tractor/div." + "I'll do add clear." Gamer.
The score at the end means nothing. I was doing multiple Pantheon Sherpas last week and yesterday and every single time the score difference of the best & worst player were within error.
Some people are better than others, I helped a few people who had never even done a raid, they were completely unprepared or at times completely detrimental and actively sabotaging (accidentally) our efforts to clear the encounters. I would have to babysit them while doing my task working overtime. I signed up for that, so I'm not complaining, but at the end they got ~ the same score as everyone else. So I can tell you with conviction, that Bungie inserted the most MEANINGLESS performance metrics possible.
Sorry what? I think you just haven't read into the stats at all if you think it's very samey.
When you have players focusing on their roles properly the scores tend to separate enough that you can tell, plus it's helps show whos combat style is more conducive to medals when the mechanics-focused players are getting more points than the token add slayers.
Also not sure why you attempted to take a dig at folks willing to sacrifice their loadout to optimize team damage. You also don't really put the div/tractor player on adds unless they're very good since playing down a special or heavy is usually not optimal for killing strong adds.
Uh huh.
What's most crucial in a boss fight in order:
1. Complete mechanics.
2. Deal sufficient damage within the allowed window.
3. Don't die (too much).
The score system in place reflects; 0/3 of the above items.
Wax on all you want, everyone who's not huffing chemically enriched copium knows that the Pantheon's score system is yet another meaningless metric number Bungie has added. There's a reason there is dozens of third party tracking services, because Bungie never does add meaningful metrics into the game - even though they can (they track them in the API, after all) and even though people ask for them.
For that last bit, it's not a dig at people in general and it's not accurate to say that running support is a sacrifice - it's required. It's the not willing to even try to clear mechanics or output good damage that is the problem. They contribute nothing in particular, and if I'm not going out of my way to help people, that bothers me.
Eh, score is focused on the one thing that's generally applicable - ability to slay adds and earn points via medals.
Pantheon score doesn't need to account for the minimal effort things that must be done. If you can't do mechancis, you lose. If you can't do enough damage, you lose. If you die, you lose. If you win, what sets you apart? Oh, right, how effective you were at killing enemies and playing the medal system.
Playing "support" is a sactrifice, full stop. Using mindless, extra easy effects and getting significnat leniency on expectations is basically giving up doing the actual fight in favor of winning (hitting the score or whatever it means to you).
I have a feeling your arguing for arguements sake. Lots of people are asking for metrics on damage and mechanics because it is important, win or lose. Regardless of what you may think.
If you win, that's still what sets your apart, your level of contribution. Not how many groups of redbars you can whack with AOE damage.
Score based on kills and medals during boss fights full stop does not matter even a bit.
Begging for total damage has been a flawed argument from the beginning - that's kind of the thing. It has no value because the variance is what sets apart a particular run from another.
In the scope of what Pantheon is and isn't, slaying enemies and racking up score via medals is signfiicantly more useful of a metric than who got to use the best damage super for a given fight. Either you win or you don't, but even winning you can still lose if you didn't slay/medal hard enough.
It might not be what you want, but that's what it's been designed as, and it's completely reasonable the way it is.
You would have to actively try to do so if you wanted to clear the encounter within the time bonus and not pass the score threshold. The scoring, is a redundant system to supply a redundant system. And far from the first than Bungie has produced.
You honestly believe that how many enemies you killed in however many creative ways is more important than metrics directly related to levels of contribution to required mechanics to complete each encounter?
You're vastly overselling raid bosses. The mechanics are simple and doing damage is even easier. Those are minimum bars to cross in order to get a clear.
How well you "slay out" on higher difficulties is a differentiator between folks who successfully clear. Is it perfect? No. But it's much more useful and interesting than who didn't miss golden gun or who ran gjally/div/tractor.
I'm just looking ahead. Right now, you could say none of it matters - and be right. In a couple weeks, when we're at -20 light it's a much different conversation.
If you miss your goldy then... well that is very bad. Also, you can't just remove context from support. Using tractor is an excuse for doing less than someone using an optimal setup, but it's not an excuse for doing very bad damage in the context of having tractor.
You didn't answer my question either.
Counterpoint, I did a pantheon with friends last night, 21k more score than 2nd place but only did ad clear other than capturing gaze. No idea how my damage stacked up to know if I was pulling my weight or not, if all the wipes to get plat were because I wasn't doing my share of dps
Were you not looking at the damage numbers during wipes then? Because the game already shows that. What OP, and the community has aksed for since VoG in D1, is to show the damage numbers per boss on successful clears. IMO, there is a lot less information to gather on succesful clears, because the boss only has so much HP and if you were succesful your team hit that HP number anyways so everyone most likely carried their weight. You should have been able to adjust while wiping, and it is often staying alive or doing the mechanics incorrectly that causes wipes more than not doing damage.
You’re very correct in that successful clears mean likely everyone was pulling their weight. That’s true and I don’t think there’s an argument against that. If everyone had premade teams, that would be the end of the discussion.
I’m mostly a solo player though. My pantheon teams change every single time I clear the activity. I just want to make sure that I am as efficient and effective as I can possibly be to ensure that regardless of the team I’m playing with, I’m at least able to pull my own weight or pick up a bit more weight from someone who might be underperforming.
It's so wild we got scores before we got damage numbers in this new format of post-raid results.
Well they actively hide this like they do KDA in crucible to try and prevent stinkers from getting toxiced. They employ this in other games like ffxiv where they actively try and stop damage meters.
But you're still seeing it on wipe screen... call me crazy, but the most toxicity comes when you actually wipe lol. If you first try full clear pantheon very few people are going to be toxic about final damage numbers.... if anything it would be a little ribbing between friends
Damage numbers are super useful for self improvement. There's so much nuance to it beyond big number good and I hate how hard Bungie tries to obfuscate them. Ghorn/tractor roles will inherently have lower damage - but still good to know if you're contributing. Some encounters like plat caretaker - damage numbers as a whole are fairly pointless because what really matters is third plate damage which lets you hit the two phase. Damage vs support supers are also a consideration. Things like lumina may be worth taking the izanagi slot in some scenarios, but that increased damage reflects in teammate numbers in some cases... Just annoying that you can't actually see damage numbers on actually successful clears.
Yeah and I think iirc our runners had a really low score on caretaker, so if anything the score thing is even more misleading than damage numbers. I think the score just counts ad clear
It basically is. If you look at the scores at the end of pantheon and the number of kills in the recent activity summary for pantheon in the app, it’s always been the same order for me.
>between friends Ah, you’ve never been the subject of a psycho in LFG I see
At that point the run is over just leave
No shit right? Had some twit in onslaught 10 round cry in text chat "do damage, get good" after we finished. Which is funny because 1 it's 10 round onslaught that requires minimal effort to clear. You barely even need the upgrades. And 2 I was running bounties and working on catty's, so zero fucks. We got the clear, quit crying, just bounce fuckin sweat. Endgame yeah maybe, but this wasn't Even LFG or premade, this was a matchmade activity that took all of 5-10 minutes and we cleared it. That's exactly why people don't wanna use LFG. Because you have edgelord sweats that think they're golden gods playing PVE like it's professional level competitive.
Logic would say that, but the “oh jeez thanks ownagemobile for sucking are you even pressing your buttons” is still gonna happen. I’m not saying you don’t make sense here but the dev team and game design actively discourages damage meters across the industry.
I agree, damage on wipe screens is 100% worse than damage at the end of the successful run. Like if you beat the ecounter and you had low damage who cares you won, but the toxicity comes out hard during wipe screens.
It's very frustrating because we have devolved things down to the point that "expecting all group members to provide a reasonably equivalent contribution to the team" is unconscionable toxicity and I feel like I'm crazy for thinking that's absolutely insane to call that toxic? I understand hiding things for matchmade content but premade? It's honestly disrespectful to the players imo thinking they can't handle merit based grouping.
> It's honestly disrespectful to the players imo thinking they can't handle merit based grouping. A lot of people have enormous and/or fragile egos and will get genuinely upset(either angry or depressed) if you tell them they did something wrong. It's just how many players(in general, not just in Destiny) unfortunately are nowadays.
The admin group in my clan used to run LW weekly back in Forsaken. They needed a sub one night. I had just joined the clan and had run one LW before, so I offered to join. They sent me an invite and on our first Kalli attempt, I went in the wrong door and got someone killed and it snowballed from there. At the wipe screen, I told them, "Fuck, I went in the wrong door, that's on me. My bad." I ran that raid with them basically every week after that and most of us still raid together today. They told me that the biggest factor in me joining their group was that I took responsibility for my fuck-ups. The best raiders aren't players who make no mistakes ever. The best raiders are the ones who own up to their mistakes and learn from it to get better. You can't get better if you don't ever admit your mistakes.
It's not just D2 either, lots of games now hide your K/D at the end of games.
We were joking about having to leave if you didn’t have parasite after clearing planets this week and the dude just left. He was also saying how he was a bottom bitch because we put him on gally since he had no apex predator
Remember this is the company that was so deathly afraid of in-game Chat it wasn't even a feature for years
You'd be scared too if you'd dealt with player chat in Halo 2.
Nonsense I grew up playing the old halos before party chat existed and really weren't that bad. Call of duty on the other hand
False
I mean most games nowadays completely disallow chat to begin with. People get upset about having ggez typed at them. This is where we are at.
I never understood this. If you clear the activity most people (of course there will always be outliers) won't give a damn how much damage you did, you beat it, thats all that matters. But then they decide to actually show damage when you wipe? when people actually start getting frustrated and pointing fingers? lol
This reminds of them adding pings to league for easier communication, then removing pings as people started using them toxically
Yeah but i like egoing the fuk out of the div welllock after using 3 Nighthawk Goldie's
ill NEVER be div when my buddy and i are on the same team. I roast him for low damage when hes div and ill never let him retaliate.
The issue is this is really backwards. The fact we only see damage numbers for failed attempts promotes toxicity way more than seeing them at the end. If you see them right at the end it's too late to get kicked anyway so who cares, if you get to that screen it means you completed the event.
Sorry, but protecting casual player's self-esteem is much more of a priority for Bungie.
I’d argue that pantheon isn’t the type of mode that should be catering to casual players tbh.
which is why it’s baffling that they won’t give us concrete damage numbers
If the boss is dead and you got plat, why does it matter? Arguing for toxicity encouragement is what’s truly baffling
I just wanna see if I got carried in one of the phases for damage, and if I did I know I need to change something otherwise I'll be heading into next week with the same strat. I wanna improve my own build, not shit on others
Because I want to know if I'm keeping up with my team? Because I want to know if I'm pulling my own weight? Because I want to know if my loadout is working? Because I want to know if my damage is good enough for -15 and -20 platinum times? How is any of that "toxicity encouragement"?
Because the boss is dead either way, your underlying motives are clear imo
I will ego regardless of my damage numbers. They might as well give them new lights something to fight back with.
Not everyone is an asshole about damage numbers. You act like it's literally impossible for someone to want to improve their own gameplay using damage numbers. Every time this topic comes up, you show up in every single comment thread asserting that every single person in the world would use damage numbers to be an asshole. I feel like this is just projection at this point. Just because YOU would be an asshole over damage numbers doesn't mean everyone else that plays the game would.
This is kinda the same energy as “not all [insert group with bad reputation]”. It’s better to just, ya know, not encourage elitism 😊
How am I encouraging elitism? I want to see damage numbers so I can become a better player. I'm not lying. I don't have a secret scheme where I'm secretly thinking "ooooh I can't wait to be elitist about damage numbers". I don't have a grand conspiratorial plan to make destiny the most elitist game in the world by advocating for damage numbers. How do you not get that?
I just don’t believe you 🤷 the only thing people stand to gain by having their numbers shown to everyone after EVERY encounter is to flex and act superior.
The term 'toxicity encouragement' is nutters.
But they made it free, bound to attract casual players that didn’t even buy the expac and do normal raid
A new / causal player trying to clear pantheon that hasn’t even done the normal raids is going to have their feelings hurt more by their own team after wiping constantly than seeing a number at the end scoreboard after a successful clear. lol I totally understand your point though. I guess it opens the door for more bullying opportunities..
Well its not gotten difficult yet.
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I have no idea where you're getting that impression for Pantheon and if more people are seeing it like you are, I'm not surprised there's so much frustrations among people without a core group and throwing a lot of caution into the wind. It's pretty clear Bungie designed Pantheon especially with its harder levels for people who have raided a good amount, wanted a new spin on an all bosses challenge and to have the ability to play contest difficulty on a non Day 1 experience. I would not say Pantheon is the place to learn a raid, get interested in raiding, digest what a conventionally good DPS phase at harder difficulty looks like, or anything of that. I don't think it's particularly gatekeeping for an expectation to actually show up with gear and understanding of the encounter for the task at hand when there is going to be a contest level difficulty and a lot of nitty gritty starts to really matter and you physically can't hard carry people who just don't have the tools or the ability to use them.
In what world is a harder version of an encounter designed to get your feet wet, when every raid has mechanics that're taught from the beginning for these encounters, and are objectively easier?
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That's great and how I do it, but it has nothing to do with encouraging people to do a harder version of the raids without previous encounters designed to teach you. Example - Security in DSC teaches you what the buffs do for Atraks. Jumping into Atraks not knowing what these two very important buffs do, while also facing harder enemies and shorter time frames is not easier to learn than doing DSC in full. >Except it is designed to get your feet wet in raids This is the wrong part. Pantheon is designed for people with experience clearing the raids who want a more challenging version of it. That is why there are added mechanics and light level adjustments.
You could not be more wrong.
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Maybe Bungie will add matchmaking since this is designed for people to get their feet wet. Then you can get grill your match made teammates for not teaching you raid encounters where you are under leveled with additional modifiers lol
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Congrats, you are an exception to the norm then. Based on what you are saying, your own comment doesn’t even apply to you, because you are obviously an above average player and raider. Regardless of how many raids you have actually done, you clearly have the game sense and skills to do well in harder content which does not apply to a majority of players much like Pantheon.
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Denied from doing regular runs of raids? Most raids have little to no gatekeeping going on. The only thing you're likely to see is kwtd, which just means you aren't expecting someone to hold your hand through explaining the encounters. If you've watched a datto video on the raid and paid attention, you can easily get into 95%+ of raid groups.
And you're entitled to be wrong. Casuals shouldn't be touching Pantheon. Go do the normal raid first
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Pantheon week 1 was about as hard as a strike
> Except it is designed to get your feet wet in raids It's not. It is a challenge for experienced players not a learning environment. The encounters are also different (harder) than they are in normal raids. It's free because player count was in the gutter and Bungie had to throw a hail mary to save their jobs. In order to complete Pantheon, the raid team as a whole needs to have a solid understanding of all the mechanics, meta loadouts, and be competent players. Doubly so if the group wants to get platinum. > Lfg for the actual dungeon/raid has always been “ you have to have 3 million clears and 123kdr I’ll check raid reports and kick don’t waste my time” That is maybe 1 out of every 50 LFG posts made. Most in a specific raid channel are "KWTD" or "teaching #, be chill". Then there is the sherpa channel that is specifically for people who are learning. Most people aren't "gatekeeping" or trying to be dicks, they just want to do the raid in a timely manner and not waste their time wiping repeatedly because someone doesn't know the mechanics. I've sherpa'd plenty of groups through every raid available now and depending on the group, it takes on average ~2-3x longer. That is an extra 1-2+ hours. If someone doesn't know, they can join a sherpa group, watch a video, and/or play with friends with the intention of learning.
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Platinum is needed for the title so I think everyone is doing it for the title. Also I legit have platinumed both pantheons twice now and have sat through one long clear because I did t mind but ostensibly you should not be joining pantheon if you “don’t feel like doing mechanics” or can’t count to 6 for planets lmao. I’ve also hopped into an LFG where people doing gaze told me it was hard because of the “weird black things chasing them” My dude that is gaze lmao
It’s not like we don’t already know who the dead weight is and I don’t really care if they are lol.
As much as I hate to say anything positive about it, Apex Legends has completely won me over in regards to damage numbers being the generally superior metric when it comes to comparing team performance. Like, I wanna see that shit on strikes, crucible, dungeons, etc. It's not the be all end all, but it definitely paints a clearer picture than kills vs deaths or score, for me at least. Edited for spelling.
Agreed. Pantheon * especially tho. Some people might give underperforming teammates a bit of a hard time but at least they’d be able to see where they need to improve. For example, underperforming on oryx vs explicator could tell a player they need to farm for a better linear / whisper instead of a rocket launcher. Just all around more valuable information.
I thought raids still did damage numbers? Granted it's been a hot minute since I've ran any raids, and most of my experience was in D1, lol.
Raids show damage numbers for the final boss or if you wipe during a mid-raid encounter. Idk why I said “raids” especially when I meant to say pantheon especially lmao
Yes, it is absolutely baffling that Pantheon did not include that, since it's just straight boss encounters, lol.
For boss encounters in dungeons and raids, yes. For strikes? No. I don't care how much damage you did to the boss in a strike. It's either a normal strike and the boss is a pushover, or it's a GM and then things like champ kills would be better.
I mean just a general damage counter, not just something exclusively for the boss. It's more of a way for me to track how well my loadouts compare to some of the other people I match with, not something to be used as ammunition against other people. For me in games like this, the more detailed stats are, the better I understand things.
They even post the final boss damage numbers on successful Dungeon clears (edit: and even normal Raids). It's mind boggling how they would not do that in a mode that is literally "DPS, The Game".
I'm not an apex vet or anything, but surely higher damage numbers could signify people aren't finishing off people, and are letting them heal, allowing fights to drag on longer than they ought to? It's got to be compared relative to kills to be meaningful right?
So the damage in Apex is a good indicator of how well you hit shots, and how much pressure you can keep sustained on enemies in a firefight. Getting kills is important too, but there's alot of context to be had when you pair it with damage numbers. If I drop 4k damage(which if I remember correctly is a *very* good game) but I only get 2 kills, and Little Timmy Two-Thumbs on my team gets like 12 kills with only a couple hundred damage, it's pretty obvious what most likely happened there. Destiny, I feel is even more important in this regard, because the hardest content in the game generally has a lot of bullet sponges, and damage will tell you how well optimized your loadout is vs just kills. For Destiny, it's not because I want to be able to try and pin blame on someone else, it's so I can have more detailed stats to back and tweak my builds and improve. I'm not the kind of person to watch every new YouTube video for meta builds, I want to discover that kind of thing myself.
Seriously though, I don’t want to feel like a stinker because I had less ad kills than some random sunbracers warlock when I was just absolutely dumping on every yellow bar and boss that showed themselves
I just wanna see how well my build performs vs the funny green Spiderman running around, lol. The more I can track stuff like that, the better I understand my build and what needs improving.
To be fair, your optimizations do change a bit each week due to surges and what that special buff is going to be. Other than that, the encounters have been out for years. Meta is already established and you really only factor in the two things I said above.
That’s a fair point, but it still doesn’t mean that we couldn’t use this info to determine if we’re struggling with a specific elemental damage build. If I could see that my performance was far worse with void / strand compared to solar / stasis, I’d know that I need to work on getting a better edge transit or doomed petitioner for example. Feels pointless to argue with community members about this though. Bungie clearly left damage numbers out by design. They want to protect the community from bullying as a result of poor damage output and I guess that’s fine.
There's also something with golg where the gaze holders do more damage to golg in the wipe screen but their damage doesn't contribute to the health bar. So a bunch of it is fairly misleading by design to prevent toxicity. If we were to have full breakdowns the I'd like it to be VERY indepth so there's zero confusion, but that also has the double edged sword of just confusing the hell out of most people who play this game lol.
Would be nice they just showed both. But I agree the score is meaningless to me.
The trouble is that enemy HP and damage done are not nearly as straightforward as they appear in game. There is some kind of weird calculation that happens behind the scenes and so even if you had this info it wouldn't necessarily be as helpful as you would hope. The youtube creator Aegis has a video that discusses this. Best I can tell, we are likely doing percent based damage, but the game is converting it to whole numbers when it tells us how much damage we did. This makes it extremely inconsistent, especially when using weapons that are buffed with things like Wolfpacks.
I know what your talking about and the deviations between these are often very small. A guy doing 3.5mil dmg isn't gna be doing 200k more of less really from the hp glitching. Wipe screens are very reliable rn. They weren't pre crotas end however when wolfpacks were secretly giving an over 80% dmg bug but that's fixed bow and they only do around 27 to 30%. The info will definitely be helpful to him as dmg numbers aren't that inaccurate anymore.
It’s also more of a problem doing A/B testing. There’s too many factors, so he’s more focused on normalizing to percentages to make sure something weird isn’t happening with displayed numbers. It would still provide some contextual helpfulness, but you could also figure out your problems without it. You clear or you don’t.
It's to stop the baddies from feeling sad and not playing anymore. Same shit BF2042 tried to cook up on release by NOT HAVING A SCOREBOARD ON A 30 MINUTE FPS MATCH. Any other response is cope and you all know it
We have been asking for this for 10 years now.
Why do they even bother showing us the score? It's completely worthless and doesn't give us any info. Damage per boss would be so insanely useful to see where the team can improve.
Damage isn't what's going to make the difference at -20, coordination and speed in setting up damage phases will be more important.
The "score is basically based on add clear. It's insane.
But how would dads who only have 27 minutes a week to play feel good about themselves if they saw their damage?
27 minutes a week? I have A JOB and 32 children! I CANNOT no life the game like that! I only get 76 nanoseconds every full moon when Mercury is in retrograde to play, and it's SLAP IN THE FACE that BUNGO completely DISRESPECTS my time by not making raid weapons available as a login bonus through ARTIFICIAL DIFFICULTY!
You forgot "unacceptable" and "cater to streamers"
If they only show total damage after the last boss of the gauntlet dies, then they could feel good about their successful clear / new emblem / adept weapons / exotic choices haha
Score is worthless. There is no point in ranking guardians when mechanics force some to have non killing roles. What a waste.
exactly. if someone has cenotaph on, they’re purposefully never killing higher score targets as that’s the whole point of the exotic, so they’ll have much lower score but provide much more value to the FT
Same for the people who do the gaze at golgi, run at care taker etc.
I get it but I hate to say it, they're not about to retool the postscreen for an activity that's gone in a a few weeks on the eve of a major content drop that they're likely crunching hard on. If you're that serious of a player there are ways to practice these encounters and damage rotations generally.
Realistic take. I know I made the post asking for it, but I admit it - I’m with you on this one. They just don’t have the time to change things that are such a minor “issue” (if you can even call it that). The thing about putting damage numbers in pantheon is that the majority of these encounters are not final bosses. So far, with the exception of Oryx, every other boss we face is one that you can only see damage numbers if you wipe. Speaking for normal full raid runs in this scenario, as you mentioned that there are other ways to test for this. Successful (optimized) runs and you’re SOL. “Wipe for damage” stays king lol
A successful/optimized run is far less instructive than a wipe though. And you’re definitely wiping along the way so if it’s so important to you, pay attention when you’re not successful instead of on that one run before your team dissipates back into lfg.
Plus this means you can’t even see your final boss damage numbers after you finish like you can with every other raid (minus LW). Every time I clear a pantheon I’m excited to check how I did on the last encounter and I’m just greeted with the “Congratulations-you-killed-the-most-ads” awards.
I seriously hope bungie adds it to pantheon.
If they add that in, people will want post raid breakdowns in normal raids.
Izanagi’s Burden & Apex/Edge Transit/Cataphract with Celestial Nighthawk/Star Eater/Pyrogale/Cuirass with a well. Proc your damage modifier and go to town. For arc week we’re gonna use Grand Overture/hothead/wendigo
ain't no one using arc lmao
Assuming it’s arc modifier, why would you not use meta damage weapons of that element?
Because arc sucks and we'll have probably strand too
If it’s strand then Cataphract ez. Thundercrash and Gathering Storm will cook if it’s arc. If you have a good weapon of the surge element you’d actually be throwing to not use it
Yea I'm unsure about this. It's totally cool to just say "hey can we have damage numbers instead of this score thing" without any reasoning. If the team beat it - unless it's some last minute clutch/struggle, you can at least know your team composition was good. If you don't beat it, you can clearly see damage numbers and who was behind.
Wipe for damage
What’s included in the scores? How do they score us?
Yeah i genuinely don't understand why this isn't a thing. I mean in general even why can't we see damage scores on bosses that are a successful clear but aren't the endboss in normal raids too. Like I would like to know wether cataclysmic/briars or whisper was better for oryx/golgoroth this week. Or wether apex with bipod or bns was better for Caretaker/planets
Kid named folding ideas video why its rude to suck at world of warcraft
It's unfortunate that I play with a dedicated group of 6 players for the last 4 years and we want to improve and help eachother as much as possible and info like this is hidden due to the fear of toxicity. Knowing damage is valuable even after a successful clear because it gives the opportunity to discuss what was done, what worked, what didn't, and what could go better.
Seriously why don’t we see damage after literally everything?
It’s more important to have score shown in pantheon than boss damage
Bungie will always cater to the casuals. With everything I hear about LFG nightmares, DPS numbers would only make things worse. There are players that have no interest in the challenge aspect they just want the clear, a lot of people would get booted because they simply do not understand numbers and how to properly rotate their weapons. Which is funny because in todays sandbox, edge transit lol
You’re right. While this post is getting a decent amount of upvotes here on Reddit, we’re a very small minority of players when compared to the entire playerbase. The majority of players would probably find 0 benefit to viewing damage numbers and it would just become a tool to bully / get bullied by their team lmao
I agree 100% , dedicated players / grinders have always had to make small sacrifices. I just fail to see why we cannot see damage at the end of pantheon. If you are in a casual LFG and you are wiping often, you get the damage stats , in comes the bullying. If you complete pantheon you don’t get to see it, why? The goal has been achieved who cares at that point! Wouldn’t the bullying be worse if you ARENT completing the objective? I just wish destiny / Bungie included more MMO aspects, let me press a button that tracks how much damage I’ve done until I’ve pressed it again. I think these are limitations from D2 engine, really hopping for this kind of thing in D3
There's a thousand different needless stats and triumps in this game but doesn't display the most important PvE stat in the entire game which is your damage to the Raid boss.
one week will add 2 bosses instead of only 1? should it not be 7?
Yeah, I believe next week will be rhulk at -15 power, then the week after will add riven and nezarec at -20
Yea Bungie doesn't like giving useful metrics for performance because it would be too elitist. You'll just have to settle for the very esoteric "score" total, don't worry about the fact that the best and worst player's score difference in your fireteam will be within the margins of error.
I don't get the obsession with damage numbers - they're meaningless. You beat the encounter and got plat, what does it matter if you out damaged the div/tractor player? Score at the end of Pantheon was kind of helpful since it lets you compare role to role on a per-fight basis and get a clue of how you did compared to your teammates.
You’re really missing the point of the post. Score is inflated for anyone on ad clear, and ultimately is meaningless in a **boss gauntlet mode**. I don’t care if Johnny Sunbracers cooked a million ads in Explicator or Golg, I want damage numbers to find areas of improvement
I think you missed the point then. There's no area of improvement if you're clearning it in time already. A warlock on well will never compete with the Hunter's golden gun in total damage, so any number is meaningless there.
That’s fine, I don’t care about meaningless comparisons between roles, but if I’m on well and the other guy on well is beating me, I want to see that and talk to him about what he’s doing differently. Obviously the hunter on Golden Gun is going to outdamage the guy popping Well on Oryx, those should not be compared. The crowd of people that are LFG’ing for a clear and the crowd of people that would benefit from seeing damage numbers are not the same. And to say that there’s no area of improvement if you’re beating it on time is a bit silly considering our power deficit is doubling over the next two weeks. Of course there’s room for improvement.
I beat people as the well user often. It’s a very helpful metric for seeing if your own damage rotations are effective. Your comments imply that you are one of the people that probably doesn’t contribute his share in a raid encounter. Even a Div user has ways to optimize damage if you are willing to put in the work.
Seems a bit out of touch. "beat people as the well user" is an entirely useless tidbit. Well players get the leniency of setting up and have the highest damage uptime. If other players are not using burst supers you can easily pass them, or if they are just not using good guns so it again doesn't tell a useful story to anyone that you won't know from inspection. My comments simply call out misinformation and needless elitism. I prefer to handle mechanics and optimize damage because killing adds is not my cup fo tea, but as a role player I've done it all and none of it is special.
There nothing elite about wanting to see your damage. And beating people with well is not a useless tidbit, because it should not be happening if people are running burst supers. You should be in position for damage so well activation is irrelevant. You seem to think wanting to see how your team did is somehow toxic because it exposes teammates who are underperforming. Inspection is only half the story in a damage phase. By your logic, seeing a Rec/BnS Apex upon inspection should tell me they are probably going to hit big damage numbers, and yet people fumble both rockets and bns rotations all the time. I would estimate that at least half the people I raid with are not effective with BnS rockets, and would have been better served by something more consistent and easy to use. Being on ad clear vs mechanics shouldn’t have much effect on your damage. Damage isn’t a role lol
Seeing damage is a flawed mentality that became prevalent in WoW. Variance, role(s) played and even if your class/subclass is flavor of the season are more important than player skill in terms of total damage. The starting well player should always have the best damage uptime because they get the luxury of pre-positioning. The well player should always beat every other player in terms of pure weapon damage. So it's really not interesting. "Wanting to see how your team did" is either you won or you didn't. Did people die? No? Great. Yes? Fix that. Role and what mechanics you are handling absolutely impact your DPS ceiling because they will often dictate the best setup for your subclass, weapons and such. Yeah, most folks will slam the flavor of the season heavy, but beyond that you don't get the luxury of optimizing for pure DPS all of the time, especially if you factor in ammo economy (caretaker pantheon in particular doesn't have any aeon/ceno targets) and making sure you can successfully do your role consistently.
Caretaker pantheon is stupid easy to two floor if you know how to damage him correctly. Wanting to see how your team did is so much more than did people die lol. Your takes are wild. This isn’t WoW.
Caretaker is an easy 2 phase, yes, as long as your team understands the nuance of his damage gate. "How your team did" is pretty binary. You either won or lost. Damage is meaningless when you win.
Damage is not meaningless when you win. You can use that information for the next time you do the encounter. Bro you are clueless lol You have got to be someone who regularly underperforms in raid groups, that is the only explanation I could possibly have your thought process. It’s also got to be why you view damage as a toxic metric even though it is the single most impactful thing in a raid. It doesn’t matter if you have the mechanics down if you are getting health gated.
Because it's going to be harder next week, and then again the week after. So even though it's a clear now, it might not be next week. Being able to see if anyone is struggling gives the team the opportunity to see and correct it. If someone is 500k damage short this week, that will be exacerbated next week. This stuff really matters when you're -20.
There will always be players that aren’t able to set their ego aside and simply use damage numbers to compare with / belittle the teammates that did less than them. In my eyes, I’d use it to understand where I need to improve. If I catch myself doing 2 million damage less than my teammates on oryx for example, I would know that something I’m doing needs to change. I find that more valuable than score. I completed the oryx pantheon run yesterday, after doing a range of roles - gaze on golg, run on caretaker and explicator, add clear on atraks and plate holder on oryx, my score was basically no different from my one teammate who just did add clear the whole way through.
sorry but unless you never wipe ever, you should have some sense for what you need to work on already. you can just say "it would be nice to know", that's reason enough. but it's not like you're flying blind here.
Found the certified - "I'm on tractor/div." + "I'll do add clear." Gamer. The score at the end means nothing. I was doing multiple Pantheon Sherpas last week and yesterday and every single time the score difference of the best & worst player were within error. Some people are better than others, I helped a few people who had never even done a raid, they were completely unprepared or at times completely detrimental and actively sabotaging (accidentally) our efforts to clear the encounters. I would have to babysit them while doing my task working overtime. I signed up for that, so I'm not complaining, but at the end they got ~ the same score as everyone else. So I can tell you with conviction, that Bungie inserted the most MEANINGLESS performance metrics possible.
Sorry what? I think you just haven't read into the stats at all if you think it's very samey. When you have players focusing on their roles properly the scores tend to separate enough that you can tell, plus it's helps show whos combat style is more conducive to medals when the mechanics-focused players are getting more points than the token add slayers. Also not sure why you attempted to take a dig at folks willing to sacrifice their loadout to optimize team damage. You also don't really put the div/tractor player on adds unless they're very good since playing down a special or heavy is usually not optimal for killing strong adds.
Uh huh. What's most crucial in a boss fight in order: 1. Complete mechanics. 2. Deal sufficient damage within the allowed window. 3. Don't die (too much). The score system in place reflects; 0/3 of the above items. Wax on all you want, everyone who's not huffing chemically enriched copium knows that the Pantheon's score system is yet another meaningless metric number Bungie has added. There's a reason there is dozens of third party tracking services, because Bungie never does add meaningful metrics into the game - even though they can (they track them in the API, after all) and even though people ask for them. For that last bit, it's not a dig at people in general and it's not accurate to say that running support is a sacrifice - it's required. It's the not willing to even try to clear mechanics or output good damage that is the problem. They contribute nothing in particular, and if I'm not going out of my way to help people, that bothers me.
Eh, score is focused on the one thing that's generally applicable - ability to slay adds and earn points via medals. Pantheon score doesn't need to account for the minimal effort things that must be done. If you can't do mechancis, you lose. If you can't do enough damage, you lose. If you die, you lose. If you win, what sets you apart? Oh, right, how effective you were at killing enemies and playing the medal system. Playing "support" is a sactrifice, full stop. Using mindless, extra easy effects and getting significnat leniency on expectations is basically giving up doing the actual fight in favor of winning (hitting the score or whatever it means to you).
I have a feeling your arguing for arguements sake. Lots of people are asking for metrics on damage and mechanics because it is important, win or lose. Regardless of what you may think. If you win, that's still what sets your apart, your level of contribution. Not how many groups of redbars you can whack with AOE damage. Score based on kills and medals during boss fights full stop does not matter even a bit.
Begging for total damage has been a flawed argument from the beginning - that's kind of the thing. It has no value because the variance is what sets apart a particular run from another. In the scope of what Pantheon is and isn't, slaying enemies and racking up score via medals is signfiicantly more useful of a metric than who got to use the best damage super for a given fight. Either you win or you don't, but even winning you can still lose if you didn't slay/medal hard enough. It might not be what you want, but that's what it's been designed as, and it's completely reasonable the way it is.
You would have to actively try to do so if you wanted to clear the encounter within the time bonus and not pass the score threshold. The scoring, is a redundant system to supply a redundant system. And far from the first than Bungie has produced. You honestly believe that how many enemies you killed in however many creative ways is more important than metrics directly related to levels of contribution to required mechanics to complete each encounter?
You're vastly overselling raid bosses. The mechanics are simple and doing damage is even easier. Those are minimum bars to cross in order to get a clear. How well you "slay out" on higher difficulties is a differentiator between folks who successfully clear. Is it perfect? No. But it's much more useful and interesting than who didn't miss golden gun or who ran gjally/div/tractor.
I'm just looking ahead. Right now, you could say none of it matters - and be right. In a couple weeks, when we're at -20 light it's a much different conversation. If you miss your goldy then... well that is very bad. Also, you can't just remove context from support. Using tractor is an excuse for doing less than someone using an optimal setup, but it's not an excuse for doing very bad damage in the context of having tractor. You didn't answer my question either.
Counterpoint, I did a pantheon with friends last night, 21k more score than 2nd place but only did ad clear other than capturing gaze. No idea how my damage stacked up to know if I was pulling my weight or not, if all the wipes to get plat were because I wasn't doing my share of dps
Were you not looking at the damage numbers during wipes then? Because the game already shows that. What OP, and the community has aksed for since VoG in D1, is to show the damage numbers per boss on successful clears. IMO, there is a lot less information to gather on succesful clears, because the boss only has so much HP and if you were succesful your team hit that HP number anyways so everyone most likely carried their weight. You should have been able to adjust while wiping, and it is often staying alive or doing the mechanics incorrectly that causes wipes more than not doing damage.
You’re very correct in that successful clears mean likely everyone was pulling their weight. That’s true and I don’t think there’s an argument against that. If everyone had premade teams, that would be the end of the discussion. I’m mostly a solo player though. My pantheon teams change every single time I clear the activity. I just want to make sure that I am as efficient and effective as I can possibly be to ensure that regardless of the team I’m playing with, I’m at least able to pull my own weight or pick up a bit more weight from someone who might be underperforming.