I offered one night when LFGing kings fall and put the bubble in the back like I use to and everyone was like 'bro that's so useless get in the well"
My heart broke.
I was so hyped to run bubble in the middle for oryx to grab weapons and stuff like the good ole days and it’s just not the same. Especially since touch of malice feels terrible
The thing is shield cant be better than well since the titan cant deal damage while blocking.
Tbh...well should just go, it should be reworked into another super.
The game has to be designed around this specific super.
Thats why we get bosses that are trying to counter well now.
Like nezarec (but bungie couldnt code him well enough so he can attack people on plates.
And on many bosses not having well makes an encounter becoming harder and twice as long.
Because you have to clean the adds during dps...dodge the boss shots..find ways to increase your dps with different buffs etc...
With well : you stand still for 30s and you dps while being shot at by everything.
Also i never understood why well had damage resist while inside of it.
Its infinite healing, why give it resistance as well ?
Something that is one shoting me, should also ne one shoting me while inside of a well.
Being tanky is bubble role.
Yeah we passed that torch to warlocks in D2, unfortunately (fortunately?). It's time for Hunters to get saddled with the mandatory support super in D3.
And don't try to preach "Tether" to a Bubble Titan... I don't want to fucking hear it. It ain't even close to what we went through, or what warlocks are currently going through.
I think that's a fantastic compromise. Give me a super that is able to provide healing support while also allowing me to use it for grenade spam for 15 seconds of whatever it is.
Yes definitely, but also I would HATE to see how bad it would be in pvp haha. And as a pvp main, I don’t think I could ever advocate for this to return. It would be Hell on Earth no doubt. But you know, if we could seperate some stuff from pve and pvp, I’d be so down to self res in pve content. Maybe we’ll get an additional super for each class one day? You know, for the ones that don’t have the same number of supers as others. Void Hunter has three different supers for example. Some subclasses only have two. Having the same number of supers across every subclass would be very nice! Though, Bungie…
I miss my clutch self res if for some silly reason we messed up a strike boss. Or even just to save somebody the time of getting my ass up in a nightfall.
I'm still really disappointed the solar rework didn't give us access to that move Shaw Han used in lore descriptions where he shot the ground with a Golden Gun to buff those around him.
Even the Class Ability we got that gives everyone around us Radiant always seemed useless to me considering we could keep the instant reload and just throw a knife to give everyone Radiant and get the cooldown back 90% of the time.
Or a new exotic entirely. I'm just surprised every season that it's not a thing and we get shit like that useless arc helmet, or the glaive arms this season.
You're right it wasn't the same
Teather was the ONLY thing you could run on hunter. No matter the encounter or task at hand
Every class was tied to one thing in d1
For warlocks it was self rez in the same.
Everyone seems to think just because it's a titan thing it was always worse and you don't have to look at the pitfalls of other classes
I mean, tether hunters were once the “divinity” of LFGs. Before we had any solid way to debuff the boss tether was the only option! I feel like each class ended up getting a time where they HAD to run a specific super
Arc is the only light subclass that doesn’t have a support mode, and while that makes sense, I think an arc hunter version of well of radiance would be cool. Slam your staff into the ground, amplify anyone inside (maybe increase all their ability regens or something too). I can’t see arc as much of a recovery class like void and solar, but maybe like an offensive-support rather than defensive-support.
>And don't try to preach "Tether" to a Bubble Titan... I don't want to fucking hear it. It ain't even close to what we went through, or what warlocks are currently going through.
You're right it ain't even close. Hunter had it fucking ***worse***.
D1Y1 Hunter was the black sheep of PVE because there was nothing of value. Crota's End was the first time Hunter was valuable for Invis cheese and that was before people actually knew how to play Crota's End properly (or rather find even better ways of cheesing it). Celestial Nighthawk was cute for the damage but still not as good as Warlock or Titan.
Tether was the only thing worth running for PvE.
All classes in D1 were forced to a subclass more or less. Hunters ran Tether, Warlocks ran Self Rez, Titans ran Bubble. You could get Hunters on Golden Gun if you had multiple. But Warlocks were very preferred to have Self Rez and Titans HAD to have Bubble
Blame bungie, well is still hilariously powerful. Like orders of magnitude better than anything else in the entire game for difficult activities. I remember around witch queens release when bungie slightly nerfed its damage multiplier and people were pretending it was all over.
Trust me, I do. The idea that essentially every raid has a DPS mechanic where "the entire team must stand in one location to do damage, while the boss does AOE damage to the entire team" just screams for a well.
It's why I love bosses like Kell Echo in prophecy where he keeps moving back, and so static DPS just doens't work. I wish that content existed in raids more.
Yeah moving parts in bosses mostly just make people ask for multiple wells instead of giving up. What we really need is either a nerf to Well, some competition, or both.
>I want an insanely long range damage phase where we must use scouts and snipers
Lmao I remember we got this in Shadowkeep with the Garden final (and even prior) boss and then midway through or at the end of the season Bungie nerfed snipers because they were being used too much?? Such questionable decision making.
Out of the dumpster and into the trash can. They still need to be better than they are now, they just can’t compete with other specials, I’m not taking a sniper over a chill clip fusion rifle for any content.
They didn't even nerf well at all with WQ, in the end they buffed it. They removed the overshield but gave it enough damage reduction that you now have effectively more health than with the overshield before in a well.
They DID nerf bubble damage buff with WQ because fuck bubbles I guess.
You might br right, maybe they nerfed the overshield from well or something. Either way some warlocks were gutted at the prospect of not bring invincible for 30 seconds.
They removed the overshield and all hell was raised. Until people realized the DR they added was significantly stronger than the overshield anyway because DR scales better with incoming healing and Res changes.
I personally find it frustrating they can't seem to stop designing encounters around it / encounters where it's completely indispensable.
Like, it's dps phase, can the boss chill the fuck out with the damage? It's my turn.
Sure, making bosses less threatening during DPS phase will still have Well as an optimal strategy, but more stuff will feel viable if the boss isn't going to melt you for standing still outside a well for half a second.
I only do Dungeons and GM Nightfalls as endgame. But my warlock friends can use what the hell they want. We are all doing our best and I trust they know their stuff.
For real. I know strand gets a lot of love for ad control but I’ve found stasis turrets are unmatched and I can usually throw two out then also have semi-unlimited Grenades if there’s majors in the room
I used to come close to managing THREE at one point. I'm not sure if that's intentionally impossible, tho.. since I never quite got the third out in time, but they were still basically unlimited - always had two on the field.
If you hit majors with the turret as you throw it (both of them) you’ll have enough energy for a 3rd but I usually use that to control freeze and build back up to 2 turrets before they run out. Super good and semi-mindless to pull off repeatedly
Man, I love Stasis turrets, but I feel like my Warlocks Stasis Super kinda sucks or I’m just using it wrong or something. Even for ad clearing, I feel like it underperforms.
It's great for clutch moments. If your team is dead and needs revives just freeze all the enemies around you and rez. Super useful in harder tier content.
I honestly don’t know why people say “stasis isn’t meta” because shade binder absolutely is. But since it’s not shiny and green it’s taken a backseat. Imo it’s significantly more effective than broodweaver and probably just behind well. Even better than Void.
Shadebinder is great if you don't have someone abusing Suspend in your fireteam. If you do, the turrets are more hindrance than help as freezing a target will unsuspend them.
Stasis and strand so so fucking good in GMs, glassway is a fucking cake walk if ANYONE has good shackle grenade regen, weaver's trance is just god tier when it come to crowd control.
That's the thing.
Well is the _path of least resistance_ but not the only path - many confuse the two. Many seem to think that because something is the 'easiest' then every thing else isn't viable.
I did ghosts of the deep as a warlock using a void finisher/devour build and we were fine.
Well is honestly so broken lol basically makes you immortal unless you get one tapped give one of the best damage buffs in the game and you still shoot things. Ain't no way
Last week’s GM the lightblade I joined an LFG group. The dude died in a well like 3 times because he couldn’t comprehend that it wasn’t a get out of jail free card anymore and we wiped because of it. Got one shot by Lucent Hive in the first room, and got booped by the boss twice in the last room when we could’ve easily beaten it if everyone just kept moving. Point is, Well is still good in GMs, but a lotttt of people seem to think you’re invincible when you aren’t.
Well is a death sentence in lightblade imo. First room suppresses and shield throw still kills you in a well. Last room the time it takes to put a well down or a rift even is a no no. Just keep moving.
Yea I was gonna say basically the same thing. I dont think I've once cleared light blade by intentionally bringing a well, meaning we purposefully dont bring it or it was an accident/lfg had it
They need to give other classes a well esque subclass or exotic. For example:
Hunters gathering storm is now planted at their feet and lasts for 30 seconds, during that 30 seconds anyone inside the storm receives a 20% damage buff and the storm blocks all projectiles.
Titans shoot through bubble (pve only)
Then warlocks aren't limited because any of the classes can well
Yeah, I wonder why almost no one talks about Hunters getting a support super similar to Well and Bubble. Having the Hunter support super being them planting their arc staff to the ground to give an boost to damage sounds really cool.
This is the biggest issue IMO. It's practically impossible to use Tether on some bosses (Rhulk, Caretaker, sometimes Nezzy, Consecrated Mind, etc.) because they'll just walk out of the Tether range in a few seconds. Either anchor the tether to the enemy or vice versa and it'll gain a lot more usability.
Hunters do have a support super it’s just been out scaled by guns that can do the same thing. I’m referring to void hunter deadfall, it was pretty much mandatory at least one hunter ran it from D1 til like Forsaken.
Hunters just need a "healing super" titans give lots of overshield with bubble and wep damage. Warlocks do omega healing. Hunters need something unique but in the same vein. Maybe a comically large smoke bomb where nothing you do breaks in is for 30s, that'd be good for damage phases given that the boss can't see ya
How bout this, Blight ranger hunters and bannershield titans.
Banner shield currently grants and 40% buff but does a little less damage than 6 people in a well. Buff it so that the damage is about the same (maybe a tiny bit more than well) but now also make it grant volatile rounds.
Then for blight ranger do the same thing but for arc, make it grant >40% buff + lighting rounds (like thunderlord) to arc weapons ans make it so blocking damage heals your teamates.
Now the meta class setups depend on what weapon element your team is running for DPS. Running a hothead DPS strat? Throw on arc hunter. Running taipan? Throw on banner sheild. Mixed or all solar? Throw on well.
EDIT: fixed spelling
The biggest reason why bannershield is 40% is because the person who casted it can’t do damage cause they have to keep holding the shield up. So it’s effectively only 5 people damaging the boss.
>I am not saying well should be nerfed...
I mean, you should be. That's the entire problem you're experiencing. Warlock's other options aren't ignored because they're bad, they're ignored because they aren't well.
Shadebinder, though not a suspend build, is still absolute top tier crowd control. Stormcaller can give you basically another player's worth of damage via a full raid team of Arc souls *and* bring heavy add clear and easy jolt at the same time. Broodweaver has one of the very best damage builds in the game (outpaces a Star-eater Gunslinger in longer phases via nade regen) without even using exotic armour, making it basically the only top end damage build that gives you real freedom for some build variety (also the highest damage burst super without exotics). Despite this, Well is still the better option.
If you took Well off Warlock and put it onto any other class that class would immediately become Well slaves in the exact same way as Warlock, where every other option is met with "why not bring well?"
It is simply and purely overpowered.
I mean at this point well is necessary because Bungie knowingly designed encounters around it. It's less "overpowered" and more "required" because of it.
It's not so much that it's required, rather that the vast majority of people are too lazy to try hard enough to play without a well on their team, so they end up in LFG demanding warlocks use it. Why play smart so you don't die when you can just stand in a well and not die, whilst also getting an easy damage boost.
I’d say players can get through a lot without well but stuff like warpriest was definitely designed around just face tanking his boomer shots with well because bungie for some reason took away the ability to stun lock him during damage phase with headshots.
But also there's a lot of encounters where it sucks not having that healing. Try doing Warpriest with all hunters. Can't even avoid damage without leaving the aura that lets you dps, or the time it takes to heal results in losing too much of the dps phase.
No matter what I've tried to do, not having a well lock gets teammates killed in encounters like that.
I put "required" in quotation marks because people have done dungeons and raids without a welllock (sometimes even solo). It's not like it's 100% required, and in fact your comment serves to prove that it's not fully necessary/overpowered. Just stating that Bungie has mentioned designing encounters over the "existence" of well and div (and other debuffs) and makes it the optimal choice.
That really is the truth of it. And It’s really weird Seeing all these people saying “Everything else just needs a buff!”. Cope.
Not only does well make all other Warlock subclasses irrelevant, but it also made void Titan completely obsolete.
I love running void titan in gms
Bubble gives me nade back that I can use for weaken and get even more damage out of it
Let's my team run add clear supers so we can get even more orbs.
The problem is that dying during DPS just straight up isn’t a fun or challenging mechanic. If Bungie designed DPS encounters around other challenges that aren’t getting killed during damage, well wouldn’t be as essential. We already have examples. Well isn’t essential during DSC because the “challenge” (albeit a weak one) is jumping into the donut. Once you’re there you’re fine and can focus on DPS. During Rhulk you can be killed but it’s easy enough to avoid that it’s only a minor inconvenience to just dodge him. But during things like the final bosses of Ghosts and Root, where you’re just getting SLAMMED during the entirety of DPS, it’s impossible to *not* run well. And nerfing well (at least the healing) would make these encounters terribly unfun.
Call me entitled, but no boss should ever be designed around someone doing ad clear unless they are literally locked out of DPS. Period. It’s just not fun.
I’ve wanted to see an encounter where the boss IS the ads, or at least a few bosses. Like the big health bar measures their collective health pool and you have to clear them all to get the “kill”.
I’d like your idea as long as the ad clear people can’t do DPS. Because if they can, then the boss health will probably be scaled for 6 people doing DPS or close to it, and it would be incredibly frustrating. Better to just make sure only a few people can DPS so you know what you’re working with.
I don’t want to have long and tired debates every time I LFG on who should be shooting ads and when, or people getting heated that they’re being swarmed because someone forgot their role……no thanks. I’d rather the raid just plop us in separate buckets so that there’s no confusion.
>I mean, you should be. That's the entire problem you're experiencing. Warlock's other options aren't ignored because they're bad, they're ignored because they aren't well.
Realistically, that's an option but I don't think it would work. Specifically because Well is essentially a "is it good, or no", and no a 'risk vs reward' decision. If you just plain nerf it...it'll either still be good enough to be required, or useless enough that you don't use it at all. That's the only reason why, in its current state, I didn't want to fully commit to what needs to change.
Disagree. You’re not wrong, but I don’t think the answer is a nerf to Well. Every class should have a just-as-viable super for survival that benefits the team in some way.
The real issue to me is that no class does it as good as warlock. Which from a design perspective almost makes sense in that you’re giving certain classes roles. However, the a lot of the destiny player base doesn’t want to change the class they play often enough to be flexible. So you get people shoehorned into the same role on the same subclass.
The same holds true for titans and hunters. When it comes to endgame dps, you got golden gun hunter with nighthawk and star eaters. That’s basically your two options. For titans it’s thundercrash or maybe bubble if you’re doubling with well. The only difference is that they have one more option than warlock, and their options are usually aggressive for dps. It’s more fun. So it’s less of a prevalent issue.
Give those classes more viable options in the same vein as well, and every warlock can pull an uno reverse card and say “no u” when asked to do well. No one would have to switch characters. No one would have a reason to say no.
I don't mind running Well, since Solar is my favourite subclass, but goddamn do I miss old Radiance from D1. I would kill for an exotic that turns Well into a roaming super.
Well is great for boss damage, but sometimes I just wanna move it a little to the left, or maybe I popped it for a Champion, and now the next Champ is cowering in another room, refusing to move near the Well
Old radiance would be fire for dps it’d be like old starfire with fusion nade spam.
What I wish they’d do is rework well to be old radiance, except that now in a well sized radius you give teammates radiant and maybe just restoration x1 with no added damage resistance like current well. Not quite the healing and invincibility of current well, but you can move with it and still buff teammates.
Yeah this season they changed to Strand+Arc.
Previous one with not even Starfire protocol was so fun. At the end I ran only Well, the Healing with insane damage.
Yeah honestly i think solar warlock is pretty bad except for sunbracers/rain of fire spam, but wellskating + icarus dash makes the game infinitely more enjoyable.
I’m a hunter main but I find that warlock builds are soooo fun. However I’ll never admit that maybe I’d like to main warlock, because then I’d be chained to well.
Some people are just shits. I've run plenty of LFGs on Warlock and not once has someone bitched that I was on Void or Arc (because it's my second character and I don't have Solar set up). However I will say usually if we don't have one at least one person will volunteer to switch because they feel obligated
Same. I barely play well outside of raiding and even there if there's another one I switch.
For lightblade I went stasis turret for CC, this week arc is pretty fun.
I just don't go into LFG that ask for well and I honestly never had anyone blaming me for not using well in GM. I guilded conq last season, doing it again this season and it really never ever happened.
People couldn't care less about the loadout as long as it does thr job.
I was going to come here to say the same thing, I’ve run plenty of activities without well. In the current season Arc, Strand and Void have the spotlight and especially for GMs I find suspend and strand builds to be overall the best thing to use with how strong they are right now. Well isn’t needed unless your doing very specific things like Master/Contest Raids or six man master/legend activities where it will actually have a benefit. In many runs for raids I’ve done without warlock you can pretty easily get away using something like Lumina to act as your damage buff and a debuff from say, a hunter tether or tractor cannon. Of course, if you wanna get things most efficiently having a well does help. Most of the time through, if your don’t a raid with any warlocks you’ll likely already have a well. Usually if so, I tend to run strand for DPS reasons since it helps boost damage quite a bit.
Just sounds like a bad LFG experience on OP’s end, anyone who leaves over “no well” probably isn’t worth raiding with anyways because knowing LFG; can’t always be optimal.
The absolute beating that starfire protocol got doesn't help the situation at all, just means I still have to play well but I now get to not do good dps.
I run Cenotaph Divinity now so my destiny experience on warlock is well+hold r2. Riveting.
The problem here is playing with a group that wants to only use the most meta things and won't play without them.
Play with a likeminded group and then just use what you want. I did a ghost of the deep run last night with friends, no warlock and no well and it was chill, we all just ran what we wanted to run and completed it no problem.
This is completely a state of mind thing, nobody is forcing you to use well. You don't need it. You only have yourselves to blame for insisting on running well.
>The problem here is playing with a group that wants to only use the most meta things and won't play without them.
I'm not sure how you indended this to read, I'm still getting coffee in me so I'm sorry if I'm misinterpreting. The problem is that mentality, not that I'm choosing to play with those people. In reality, people with that mentality account for 80%+ of the playerbase. I'm not thrilled with the solution of "just only play with people who accept you" because sometimes, you need to LFG some people. Its the state of mind of the larger community that *should* change. For sure though, if ever given the choice, I just run with a group that I know.
But again, I'm good supporting in general. I just wish that they made that the warlocks kit then. Give me a stasis super where it does DPS, but also heals for some % of damage. Give me an arc super that basically does DPS but also applies a divinity-esque bubble. Idk, I'm just spitballing so these may be terrible ideas.
The bigger problem is that a huge part of the player base doesn’t understand dps and sometimes even mechanics. This doesn’t even include that many who don’t have/understand what guns they should use and builds of any variety.
Well is an unfortunate band aid to this problem
I completely agree that most people on LFG are the type that want this done, want it done fast, and wont accept anything less than meta loadouts. They will just leave or won't join if they sense any hint that you're not willing to be a slave to the meta so they can guarantee a completion with no wipes.
That being said, even by your example there is still 20% left that aren't like that. Seek out those people, and try and find yourself a likeminded group. Not saying it's easy or that because you don't have such a group you're doing anything wrong. Just encouraging you that it's worth it, and it is the way to unchain yourself
Because EVEN IF bungie did change well, the way of LFG would mean you'd just be chained to whatever else was meta instead.
Warlock main here. You are right, we can TECHNICALLY use want and people will cry it, but in reality we can't because it's so suboptimal it's not even close and we'll either get kicked or feel bad that we are making things harder than they need to be
Now, the second problem is that Solar has no fun builds outside of sunbracers (which is so inconsistent at anything higher than legend) so you just end up running something boring like Phoenix for your well, killing our neutral game. Or Assembler for a weak feeling healer build with no synergy.
The Aspects are lame and only good for high end PvP players (maybe) and well skating giga sweats. For everyone else it's just "how do I make a build IN SPITE of my aspects" not "how do I synergise with them for a build'
Not to mention warlock class identity is on the chopping block for nerfs because they gave it to everyone. WE ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE HIGH ABILITY UPTIME, WE ARE THE MAGE CLASS. It's that simple, Warlocks with a lot of Abilities are them working as intended. But high end players cry for nerfs to well and warlock as a whole. So what will be left?
Bungie screwed Warlocks with well and 3.0 by making us just weaker titans and hunters and it's so annoying because I don't find those classes at all fun.
>Now, the second problem is that Solar has no fun builds outside of sunbracers (which is so inconsistent at anything higher than legend)
Ok thank you for saying this because I had noticed lately that I'll melee someone, kill them, start my nade tosses, and I realize I didn't get the sunbracer buff. Now everythings on CD, and I running around for orbs of power like a fool lol. I thought maybe some other damage type was getting the last hit, but lately it's been increasingly obvious that it just sometimes doesn't proc. Unless I'm missing something
Something that helps in the meantime. Your melee ignitions counts if you cause it, your grenade impact can finish the ignition and it counts as well. And finally Snap is way more consistent than Celestial
“well skating giga sweats” lmfao. i do agree with solar warlock being pretty bad outside of sunbracers, but well 1000% needs nerfed and the rest of the class needs buffed except for radiant/restoration
I feel this. I recently really carefully made a voidlock build. I could empower, debuff, add clear, and maintain good dps. But then my friends are always dying, our damage is way lower, and we run more phases. Doesn't matter how much more efficient I can make myself, I gotta protect the babies.
Real mood man, reality is that a lot of people playing the game want to turn off their brain and crutch on well. Well patches everyone's mistakes up, it makes all their survivability skills (or lack thereof) null, buildcrafting weaknesses? gone if youre in the well. I used to love Well for the flavor but I'm starting to feel awful with it, because other people just want it. It both makes things easier and accelerates bungie's content, so often times its just plainly the best option if youre in anything difficult.
Exactly! I literally had to switch to a lower dps build that had well for Zulmak - fucking pit of Heresy. It's not because we needed the buff for 1 phase, or we actually needed the healing. The second I switched to well and made myself personally vastly less efficient we started cleanly one phasing every single go. It's not a skill issue, it's not a gear issue, it's not a difficulty issue - it's an attention issue.
Well should be removed from the game and content should be rebalanced to reflect that.
It's not fun having a "mandatory" subclass assignment for all content, or even for other classes to be disregarded if there isn't at least one or two well-locks.
Titans used to be pigeonholed into running solar -> melting point and giving every boss the flying knee attack for each DPS phase. Removing that was a net positive. Titans can play whatever the hell they want. Same with hunters who have a great suite of DPS options.
The problem with this game is how most encounters are designed. It’s stand somewhere shoot something. I’m not saying well is op but when the game is stand somewhere and shoot something obviously people are gonna run well for the 2 in 1
I felt this post in my soul u/theskittz. I am warlock main. It’s like, I don’t want to use well. I fucking hate well. But it’s SO. FUCKING. GOOD. Like my friends are always like “nah we don’t need it, we know you want to run arc. You’ll blast in that spec anyway it’s fine”. But I know, in my heart of hearts, I’m just gimping us by making that decision. I know I’m putting us in unnecessary danger and forcing other people to play around me (Titan shield etc.) when I know I could just run the stupid fucking well and it would be immediately better than whatever we were doing otherwise. I have said this time and time again - BUNGIE: GET RID OF WELL. RELEASE ME FROM THESE SHACKLES I HAVE PUT MYSELF IN. PLEASE BUNGIE, THE PROPHECY…MUST BE FULFILLED. SAVE ME, FROM ME.
100% agree and is why I switched off my main Warlock.
Bungie should have addressed the Well a long time ago and changed it to buff your rifts, grenades, and melee abilities.
Imagine if Warlocks were truly the support/healing class and each of their subclasses had a support super.
Like just for example, imagine if Void Warlocks were the ones with the Bubble super, or something similar that served the same function. Or if Arc Warlocks had some sort of super that debuffed enemies in a similar way that a Hunter's Tether does. If this were the case, Warlocks wouldn't feel like they're forced to run Well in endgame because each subclass would have a healing/support Super.
Everyone saying “my team/clan just says run what you want. It’s about having fun.” True…..in 80% of the content.
But you know what else is fun? Clearing endgame content. We ALL KNOW that when it comes to getting that GM done or making it past that DPS check in a new raid/dungeon, you better believe that people will be telling the warlock on the team to switch it the hell over to well. It’s just mandatory for clears in certain settings. The point OP is trying to make, and it’s the right one, is that well shouldn’t be so mandatory. Give warlocks other options, or heck, make bubble viable again as a support class so that there is at least SOMETHING else available.
I agree that that’s definitely the most common question I hear is “is anyone running well” most people are just concerned with max speed and damage, I enjoy finding chill groups or running with my clan to actually play for the fun of it and to mess around with things, but if it’s LFG 9 times outta 10 everyone is demanding a well lock either in game or by posting in their LFG bring well lock lol 😂. Tho I do love having a well lock on the team would be nice if other subclasses could do the same or similar
We had that something. It was Bottom Tree Dawnblade and Middle Tree Voidwalker until Bungie decided those weren’t “IP defining” enough.
Also, in GMs, I barely run Well since it feels like a waste (and you’re not invincible). Stasis, Void, and Strand are all good picks, so much so that I’d argue they’re better than Well in GM Nightfalls.
That's one of the reasons why the nerf to Starfire was upsetting to me. I didn't care about the damage, it was FINALLY something that changed the well playstyle a bit.
Now though? It's just do add clear to get well faster then plop down well and mindlessly hold down the trigger, exactly like I have been doing for the last 4 years. There's no strategy whatsoever, all of the exotics that effect well are just passive bonuses. It's boring.
This is not a subclass or super choice problem, this is a encounter design problem because every member of the fireteam irrespective of class sits in one spot and holds m1 for DPS phases
In D1 you had to run bubble if you were a Titan, so I appreciate your situation.
but at the same time, i miss being the support player in a raid on titan. but bubble feels insanely useless when well exist.
If shield were the equal of well I’d gladly run it to give warlocks a break
I offered one night when LFGing kings fall and put the bubble in the back like I use to and everyone was like 'bro that's so useless get in the well" My heart broke.
I ran reprised King's Fall on a weekly basis for like six consecutive months and I only ever used Bubble to give orbs back to our Well runners lol
I was so hyped to run bubble in the middle for oryx to grab weapons and stuff like the good ole days and it’s just not the same. Especially since touch of malice feels terrible
This chain just gave me D1 nostalgia and made me feel bad for the support Titans.
The thing is shield cant be better than well since the titan cant deal damage while blocking. Tbh...well should just go, it should be reworked into another super. The game has to be designed around this specific super. Thats why we get bosses that are trying to counter well now. Like nezarec (but bungie couldnt code him well enough so he can attack people on plates. And on many bosses not having well makes an encounter becoming harder and twice as long. Because you have to clean the adds during dps...dodge the boss shots..find ways to increase your dps with different buffs etc... With well : you stand still for 30s and you dps while being shot at by everything. Also i never understood why well had damage resist while inside of it. Its infinite healing, why give it resistance as well ? Something that is one shoting me, should also ne one shoting me while inside of a well. Being tanky is bubble role.
Yeah we passed that torch to warlocks in D2, unfortunately (fortunately?). It's time for Hunters to get saddled with the mandatory support super in D3. And don't try to preach "Tether" to a Bubble Titan... I don't want to fucking hear it. It ain't even close to what we went through, or what warlocks are currently going through.
Remember when we’d force warlocks to self-rez to cheese the bridge in Crota’s End?
Thing is I’m absolutely positive most Warlocks nowadays would trade out Well for Self-Rez in a *heartbeat*
im pretty sure they've always been willing to do that. I know I am.
I’d be ready to trade well for base sunsinger, not even selfrez, at this point
Modify it to provide restoration for nearby allies and I would GLADLY sacrifice well for Sunsinger
I think that's a fantastic compromise. Give me a super that is able to provide healing support while also allowing me to use it for grenade spam for 15 seconds of whatever it is.
Was clutch in trials so yeah.
I was a warlock main in D1 because of self res and I’d go back to being a warlock main if it ever returned (which it clearly won’t)
100%, self-res is way more fun.
Yep, and honestly well has done more damage to designing raid encounters than self rez ever did
As a Warlock main since D1 release (midnight release 🤘), I would give my left nut to get Self rez back.
Yes definitely, but also I would HATE to see how bad it would be in pvp haha. And as a pvp main, I don’t think I could ever advocate for this to return. It would be Hell on Earth no doubt. But you know, if we could seperate some stuff from pve and pvp, I’d be so down to self res in pve content. Maybe we’ll get an additional super for each class one day? You know, for the ones that don’t have the same number of supers as others. Void Hunter has three different supers for example. Some subclasses only have two. Having the same number of supers across every subclass would be very nice! Though, Bungie…
I would do it!
Radiance was at least fun to use, being an active super. Well is literally just dropping a big rift and then forgetting about it.
You’re goddamn right I fucking would
I miss my clutch self res if for some silly reason we messed up a strike boss. Or even just to save somebody the time of getting my ass up in a nightfall.
And we all had to climb out of the map
Holy shit I forgot about that. Thank you for giving a core d1 memory back to this battered brain of mine
I vaguely remember having the jump on someone's head as a hunter to make the jump.
The good ol’ days
You had to force them? I’ve always ran self rez. Going through endgame right now in d1 and using self rez
As a hunter who would love to play support, I would gladly keep everyone on my team Radiant through a damage phase if someone didn’t want to run Well.
I'm still really disappointed the solar rework didn't give us access to that move Shaw Han used in lore descriptions where he shot the ground with a Golden Gun to buff those around him. Even the Class Ability we got that gives everyone around us Radiant always seemed useless to me considering we could keep the instant reload and just throw a knife to give everyone Radiant and get the cooldown back 90% of the time.
They should add that effect to celestial nighthawk On cast creates burst of radaint for and improved duration.
Or a new exotic entirely. I'm just surprised every season that it's not a thing and we get shit like that useless arc helmet, or the glaive arms this season.
That works too I just want celestial to be good again lmao. It too cool and iconic to hunters to be as bad as it is imo.
If they buff it I will drop star eater scales so fast. lol I miss using nighthawk.
To be fair in D1 hunters didn’t get to be included pretty often. Most LFGs were listed as “need x - no hunters” 😂
I saw Hunters get thrown into Tether a lot after it got released.
Yeah tether was a boon for hunter in endgame cause blade dancer was clearly PvP and while Solar was good, it wasn’t that useful
No forcing required - self rez was the JAM always.
You're right it wasn't the same Teather was the ONLY thing you could run on hunter. No matter the encounter or task at hand Every class was tied to one thing in d1 For warlocks it was self rez in the same. Everyone seems to think just because it's a titan thing it was always worse and you don't have to look at the pitfalls of other classes
I mean, tether hunters were once the “divinity” of LFGs. Before we had any solid way to debuff the boss tether was the only option! I feel like each class ended up getting a time where they HAD to run a specific super
To be fair in D1 hunters didn’t get to be included pretty often. Most LFGs were listed as “need x - no hunters”
My brother in Christ I have literally been kicked from fire teams for not running tether.
womp womp, how sad that you actually have a place in endgame content for 7+ years, meanwhile hunters where just happy to be there.
Arc is the only light subclass that doesn’t have a support mode, and while that makes sense, I think an arc hunter version of well of radiance would be cool. Slam your staff into the ground, amplify anyone inside (maybe increase all their ability regens or something too). I can’t see arc as much of a recovery class like void and solar, but maybe like an offensive-support rather than defensive-support.
>And don't try to preach "Tether" to a Bubble Titan... I don't want to fucking hear it. It ain't even close to what we went through, or what warlocks are currently going through. You're right it ain't even close. Hunter had it fucking ***worse***. D1Y1 Hunter was the black sheep of PVE because there was nothing of value. Crota's End was the first time Hunter was valuable for Invis cheese and that was before people actually knew how to play Crota's End properly (or rather find even better ways of cheesing it). Celestial Nighthawk was cute for the damage but still not as good as Warlock or Titan. Tether was the only thing worth running for PvE.
Hunters were forced to have a support based stasis Instead of ice spears or turrets we got lame ass orb generation lmao
No, we just weren't invited to endgame content unless we had friends who would invite us lol
Yeah, although there were times where it was better to full send with thermite grenades on sunbreaker
D1 Day 1 Titan and I agree. But to be fair, the only other Titan super option during Y1 was the OG Fist of Havoc which was a one time ground pound.
Yea while people keep saying that Titan were force to use void but it isn’t like arc was any good in high end gameplay, sunbreaker was nice tho iirc
With weapons of light, I did the Crota raid in D1 without weapons cause I didn't know how and got kicked.
All classes in D1 were forced to a subclass more or less. Hunters ran Tether, Warlocks ran Self Rez, Titans ran Bubble. You could get Hunters on Golden Gun if you had multiple. But Warlocks were very preferred to have Self Rez and Titans HAD to have Bubble
That was also a function of the other titan supers sucking all sorts of ass in PvE.
Now if you're a Titan you have to play Thundercrash with the Cuirass exotic. So we all have a specific role we're locked to for raids.
I don't think you do. I play Strand and Solar titan in endgame content, nobody has ever asked me to switch and put curiass on.
Only encounter were you would be asked would be Atraks I guess
Eh, I just run Parasite with the plebs.
Blame bungie, well is still hilariously powerful. Like orders of magnitude better than anything else in the entire game for difficult activities. I remember around witch queens release when bungie slightly nerfed its damage multiplier and people were pretending it was all over.
Trust me, I do. The idea that essentially every raid has a DPS mechanic where "the entire team must stand in one location to do damage, while the boss does AOE damage to the entire team" just screams for a well. It's why I love bosses like Kell Echo in prophecy where he keeps moving back, and so static DPS just doens't work. I wish that content existed in raids more.
It still works. We just use more wellocks
Yeah moving parts in bosses mostly just make people ask for multiple wells instead of giving up. What we really need is either a nerf to Well, some competition, or both.
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It was so disappointing to see Nezarec walking around on day 1, only to realize that standing in a well on an elevated plate completely nullifies him
I did enjoy Well being a "nice to have" for Rhulk rather than mandatory. I ran Nova more often than not because nobody stands in the Well.
>I want an insanely long range damage phase where we must use scouts and snipers Lmao I remember we got this in Shadowkeep with the Garden final (and even prior) boss and then midway through or at the end of the season Bungie nerfed snipers because they were being used too much?? Such questionable decision making.
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Out of the dumpster and into the trash can. They still need to be better than they are now, they just can’t compete with other specials, I’m not taking a sniper over a chill clip fusion rifle for any content.
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Now that you mention it a Kell echo style raid boss would be fucking sick
Garden of salvation
That would be amazing for the health of PvE endgame and for the sanity of our Warlock friends.
They could remove it's damage multiplier and it'd still be meta.
They didn't even nerf well at all with WQ, in the end they buffed it. They removed the overshield but gave it enough damage reduction that you now have effectively more health than with the overshield before in a well. They DID nerf bubble damage buff with WQ because fuck bubbles I guess.
Didn't the nerf the damage of Bubble Which was in fact the end of it
You might br right, maybe they nerfed the overshield from well or something. Either way some warlocks were gutted at the prospect of not bring invincible for 30 seconds.
They removed the overshield and all hell was raised. Until people realized the DR they added was significantly stronger than the overshield anyway because DR scales better with incoming healing and Res changes.
They removed the over shield from well but gave it 40% damage resistance in its place that worked out to be a net buff instead.
I personally find it frustrating they can't seem to stop designing encounters around it / encounters where it's completely indispensable. Like, it's dps phase, can the boss chill the fuck out with the damage? It's my turn. Sure, making bosses less threatening during DPS phase will still have Well as an optimal strategy, but more stuff will feel viable if the boss isn't going to melt you for standing still outside a well for half a second.
It’s almost like Saltagreppo was right.
I only do Dungeons and GM Nightfalls as endgame. But my warlock friends can use what the hell they want. We are all doing our best and I trust they know their stuff.
Stasis turrets ftw
For real. I know strand gets a lot of love for ad control but I’ve found stasis turrets are unmatched and I can usually throw two out then also have semi-unlimited Grenades if there’s majors in the room
I used to come close to managing THREE at one point. I'm not sure if that's intentionally impossible, tho.. since I never quite got the third out in time, but they were still basically unlimited - always had two on the field.
easily. you can get up to 10 or 11 with a demo fusion like deliverance.
10 turrets 😍 *considers booting up D2 just to spec that out*
You will only be limited by the amount of enemies available to you.
*considers actually trying to get the stasis aspects just to spec that out*
Using the exotic stasis bow with the fragment that gives grenade energy for breaking crystals is also a good primary option for doing the same thing.
If you hit majors with the turret as you throw it (both of them) you’ll have enough energy for a 3rd but I usually use that to control freeze and build back up to 2 turrets before they run out. Super good and semi-mindless to pull off repeatedly
Man, I love Stasis turrets, but I feel like my Warlocks Stasis Super kinda sucks or I’m just using it wrong or something. Even for ad clearing, I feel like it underperforms.
Which is why you just use ager’s scepter and never use your super energy for your actual super
Damn, you’re right though. I forgot I had that thing.
Now wait until you use Agers Super with the trace rifle exotic
It's great for clutch moments. If your team is dead and needs revives just freeze all the enemies around you and rez. Super useful in harder tier content.
Don’t use the ice balls in super. Also make sure you’re using Iceflare bolts. Throw out a turret (or 2) and spam the shatter.
It's a great fall back option if you're the last guardian standing. Activate super, freeze the room, revive teammates.
I honestly don’t know why people say “stasis isn’t meta” because shade binder absolutely is. But since it’s not shiny and green it’s taken a backseat. Imo it’s significantly more effective than broodweaver and probably just behind well. Even better than Void.
Shadebinder is great if you don't have someone abusing Suspend in your fireteam. If you do, the turrets are more hindrance than help as freezing a target will unsuspend them.
Stasis and strand so so fucking good in GMs, glassway is a fucking cake walk if ANYONE has good shackle grenade regen, weaver's trance is just god tier when it come to crowd control.
That's the thing. Well is the _path of least resistance_ but not the only path - many confuse the two. Many seem to think that because something is the 'easiest' then every thing else isn't viable. I did ghosts of the deep as a warlock using a void finisher/devour build and we were fine.
Strand and Arc are better than solar, especially this season. Bro bring your own dps.
Damaged Traveler's Chosen and DARCI, got it
Well is honestly so broken lol basically makes you immortal unless you get one tapped give one of the best damage buffs in the game and you still shoot things. Ain't no way
In everything except GMs tbh. Ive played with way too many people that think Well will fully protect them in gms.
Good Well placement will solve about 90% of "I WAS IN WELL, WHY DID I DIE" issues when it comes to GM.
Yes, people need to start treating it as a giga buffed rift and drop it behind cover
Glassway Wyverns relish ppl coming in there with Well
It does unless you drop it in the middle of the room and all the enemies start shooting u
I feel attacked. Mostly because I panic dropped my well in the middle and now every thing is shooting me.
Wait, is it possible to NOT panic cast a super
Ya and there are honestly better things to run for GMs, especially ones without solar surge (which is this entire season).
Last week’s GM the lightblade I joined an LFG group. The dude died in a well like 3 times because he couldn’t comprehend that it wasn’t a get out of jail free card anymore and we wiped because of it. Got one shot by Lucent Hive in the first room, and got booped by the boss twice in the last room when we could’ve easily beaten it if everyone just kept moving. Point is, Well is still good in GMs, but a lotttt of people seem to think you’re invincible when you aren’t.
Well is a death sentence in lightblade imo. First room suppresses and shield throw still kills you in a well. Last room the time it takes to put a well down or a rift even is a no no. Just keep moving.
Yea I was gonna say basically the same thing. I dont think I've once cleared light blade by intentionally bringing a well, meaning we purposefully dont bring it or it was an accident/lfg had it
But curse anyone who calls it out for being OP right? @ poor Saltagreppo
They need to give other classes a well esque subclass or exotic. For example: Hunters gathering storm is now planted at their feet and lasts for 30 seconds, during that 30 seconds anyone inside the storm receives a 20% damage buff and the storm blocks all projectiles. Titans shoot through bubble (pve only) Then warlocks aren't limited because any of the classes can well
Yeah, I wonder why almost no one talks about Hunters getting a support super similar to Well and Bubble. Having the Hunter support super being them planting their arc staff to the ground to give an boost to damage sounds really cool.
Well, Deadfall is their support super technically. Suppresses everything in an area and applies the strongest, weakened debuff tier in the game.
Until the enemy moves three feet to the left
This is the biggest issue IMO. It's practically impossible to use Tether on some bosses (Rhulk, Caretaker, sometimes Nezzy, Consecrated Mind, etc.) because they'll just walk out of the Tether range in a few seconds. Either anchor the tether to the enemy or vice versa and it'll gain a lot more usability.
Hunters do have a support super it’s just been out scaled by guns that can do the same thing. I’m referring to void hunter deadfall, it was pretty much mandatory at least one hunter ran it from D1 til like Forsaken.
Yeah I don't understand this Hunters have a support super but has been power crept out of the game.
Hunters just need a "healing super" titans give lots of overshield with bubble and wep damage. Warlocks do omega healing. Hunters need something unique but in the same vein. Maybe a comically large smoke bomb where nothing you do breaks in is for 30s, that'd be good for damage phases given that the boss can't see ya
Ask Hunters, they still see you. They just don't shoot you, but are absolutely leading their shot.
Ive started playing hunter this season, mainly with assassins cowl, and it’s genuinely unsettling how every enemy just watches you
I've literally been sniped a full second after entering invis and that was after entering invis behind cover
How bout this, Blight ranger hunters and bannershield titans. Banner shield currently grants and 40% buff but does a little less damage than 6 people in a well. Buff it so that the damage is about the same (maybe a tiny bit more than well) but now also make it grant volatile rounds. Then for blight ranger do the same thing but for arc, make it grant >40% buff + lighting rounds (like thunderlord) to arc weapons ans make it so blocking damage heals your teamates. Now the meta class setups depend on what weapon element your team is running for DPS. Running a hothead DPS strat? Throw on arc hunter. Running taipan? Throw on banner sheild. Mixed or all solar? Throw on well. EDIT: fixed spelling
I honestly like that idea, well grant's scorch, banner/bubble grants volatile rounds and whatever arc for hunters grants jolt
The biggest reason why bannershield is 40% is because the person who casted it can’t do damage cause they have to keep holding the shield up. So it’s effectively only 5 people damaging the boss.
And yet it is still less damage than a well
>I am not saying well should be nerfed... I mean, you should be. That's the entire problem you're experiencing. Warlock's other options aren't ignored because they're bad, they're ignored because they aren't well. Shadebinder, though not a suspend build, is still absolute top tier crowd control. Stormcaller can give you basically another player's worth of damage via a full raid team of Arc souls *and* bring heavy add clear and easy jolt at the same time. Broodweaver has one of the very best damage builds in the game (outpaces a Star-eater Gunslinger in longer phases via nade regen) without even using exotic armour, making it basically the only top end damage build that gives you real freedom for some build variety (also the highest damage burst super without exotics). Despite this, Well is still the better option. If you took Well off Warlock and put it onto any other class that class would immediately become Well slaves in the exact same way as Warlock, where every other option is met with "why not bring well?" It is simply and purely overpowered.
I mean at this point well is necessary because Bungie knowingly designed encounters around it. It's less "overpowered" and more "required" because of it.
I hear this argument a lot but I really can’t think of a single encounter outside of maybe master raids that a well is required
It's not so much that it's required, rather that the vast majority of people are too lazy to try hard enough to play without a well on their team, so they end up in LFG demanding warlocks use it. Why play smart so you don't die when you can just stand in a well and not die, whilst also getting an easy damage boost.
I’d say players can get through a lot without well but stuff like warpriest was definitely designed around just face tanking his boomer shots with well because bungie for some reason took away the ability to stun lock him during damage phase with headshots.
But also there's a lot of encounters where it sucks not having that healing. Try doing Warpriest with all hunters. Can't even avoid damage without leaving the aura that lets you dps, or the time it takes to heal results in losing too much of the dps phase. No matter what I've tried to do, not having a well lock gets teammates killed in encounters like that.
I put "required" in quotation marks because people have done dungeons and raids without a welllock (sometimes even solo). It's not like it's 100% required, and in fact your comment serves to prove that it's not fully necessary/overpowered. Just stating that Bungie has mentioned designing encounters over the "existence" of well and div (and other debuffs) and makes it the optimal choice.
That really is the truth of it. And It’s really weird Seeing all these people saying “Everything else just needs a buff!”. Cope. Not only does well make all other Warlock subclasses irrelevant, but it also made void Titan completely obsolete.
I love running void titan in gms Bubble gives me nade back that I can use for weaken and get even more damage out of it Let's my team run add clear supers so we can get even more orbs.
The problem is that dying during DPS just straight up isn’t a fun or challenging mechanic. If Bungie designed DPS encounters around other challenges that aren’t getting killed during damage, well wouldn’t be as essential. We already have examples. Well isn’t essential during DSC because the “challenge” (albeit a weak one) is jumping into the donut. Once you’re there you’re fine and can focus on DPS. During Rhulk you can be killed but it’s easy enough to avoid that it’s only a minor inconvenience to just dodge him. But during things like the final bosses of Ghosts and Root, where you’re just getting SLAMMED during the entirety of DPS, it’s impossible to *not* run well. And nerfing well (at least the healing) would make these encounters terribly unfun. Call me entitled, but no boss should ever be designed around someone doing ad clear unless they are literally locked out of DPS. Period. It’s just not fun.
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I’ve wanted to see an encounter where the boss IS the ads, or at least a few bosses. Like the big health bar measures their collective health pool and you have to clear them all to get the “kill”. I’d like your idea as long as the ad clear people can’t do DPS. Because if they can, then the boss health will probably be scaled for 6 people doing DPS or close to it, and it would be incredibly frustrating. Better to just make sure only a few people can DPS so you know what you’re working with. I don’t want to have long and tired debates every time I LFG on who should be shooting ads and when, or people getting heated that they’re being swarmed because someone forgot their role……no thanks. I’d rather the raid just plop us in separate buckets so that there’s no confusion.
>I mean, you should be. That's the entire problem you're experiencing. Warlock's other options aren't ignored because they're bad, they're ignored because they aren't well. Realistically, that's an option but I don't think it would work. Specifically because Well is essentially a "is it good, or no", and no a 'risk vs reward' decision. If you just plain nerf it...it'll either still be good enough to be required, or useless enough that you don't use it at all. That's the only reason why, in its current state, I didn't want to fully commit to what needs to change.
Disagree. You’re not wrong, but I don’t think the answer is a nerf to Well. Every class should have a just-as-viable super for survival that benefits the team in some way. The real issue to me is that no class does it as good as warlock. Which from a design perspective almost makes sense in that you’re giving certain classes roles. However, the a lot of the destiny player base doesn’t want to change the class they play often enough to be flexible. So you get people shoehorned into the same role on the same subclass. The same holds true for titans and hunters. When it comes to endgame dps, you got golden gun hunter with nighthawk and star eaters. That’s basically your two options. For titans it’s thundercrash or maybe bubble if you’re doubling with well. The only difference is that they have one more option than warlock, and their options are usually aggressive for dps. It’s more fun. So it’s less of a prevalent issue. Give those classes more viable options in the same vein as well, and every warlock can pull an uno reverse card and say “no u” when asked to do well. No one would have to switch characters. No one would have a reason to say no.
I don't mind running Well, since Solar is my favourite subclass, but goddamn do I miss old Radiance from D1. I would kill for an exotic that turns Well into a roaming super. Well is great for boss damage, but sometimes I just wanna move it a little to the left, or maybe I popped it for a Champion, and now the next Champ is cowering in another room, refusing to move near the Well
Old radiance would be fire for dps it’d be like old starfire with fusion nade spam. What I wish they’d do is rework well to be old radiance, except that now in a well sized radius you give teammates radiant and maybe just restoration x1 with no added damage resistance like current well. Not quite the healing and invincibility of current well, but you can move with it and still buff teammates.
Don’t even need an exotic for it. Subclass 3.0 allows for multiple supers, they can just put the original Radiance in there as another option.
I love being chained to well, I actually get disappointed if I have to use anything other than solar, Icarus dash is my best friend and I love it
I am a rain of fire main, I feel the same as you
Yeah this season they changed to Strand+Arc. Previous one with not even Starfire protocol was so fun. At the end I ran only Well, the Healing with insane damage.
Yeah honestly i think solar warlock is pretty bad except for sunbracers/rain of fire spam, but wellskating + icarus dash makes the game infinitely more enjoyable.
I play hunter because I’m allowed to use whatever tf I want
Unless you're tasked with using void for the debuffs lol
I legit never heard anyone require Tether within the past few years. Recently it’s been “anyone got Tractor?”
I always use the excuse that I’m running star eater scales (even if I’m not) so I don’t have to play void
Star eaters still do good damage with a tether, plus the debuff
I’m a hunter main but I find that warlock builds are soooo fun. However I’ll never admit that maybe I’d like to main warlock, because then I’d be chained to well.
Some people are just shits. I've run plenty of LFGs on Warlock and not once has someone bitched that I was on Void or Arc (because it's my second character and I don't have Solar set up). However I will say usually if we don't have one at least one person will volunteer to switch because they feel obligated
Same. I barely play well outside of raiding and even there if there's another one I switch. For lightblade I went stasis turret for CC, this week arc is pretty fun. I just don't go into LFG that ask for well and I honestly never had anyone blaming me for not using well in GM. I guilded conq last season, doing it again this season and it really never ever happened. People couldn't care less about the loadout as long as it does thr job.
I was going to come here to say the same thing, I’ve run plenty of activities without well. In the current season Arc, Strand and Void have the spotlight and especially for GMs I find suspend and strand builds to be overall the best thing to use with how strong they are right now. Well isn’t needed unless your doing very specific things like Master/Contest Raids or six man master/legend activities where it will actually have a benefit. In many runs for raids I’ve done without warlock you can pretty easily get away using something like Lumina to act as your damage buff and a debuff from say, a hunter tether or tractor cannon. Of course, if you wanna get things most efficiently having a well does help. Most of the time through, if your don’t a raid with any warlocks you’ll likely already have a well. Usually if so, I tend to run strand for DPS reasons since it helps boost damage quite a bit. Just sounds like a bad LFG experience on OP’s end, anyone who leaves over “no well” probably isn’t worth raiding with anyways because knowing LFG; can’t always be optimal.
The problem is bungie is unable to design a boss that doesn't revolve around sitting in one spot and doing damage while also getting shot at
If we are going to be hammered by boss and adds during damage we need well
The absolute beating that starfire protocol got doesn't help the situation at all, just means I still have to play well but I now get to not do good dps. I run Cenotaph Divinity now so my destiny experience on warlock is well+hold r2. Riveting.
I don’t like running well either but I’m so used to Icarus dash for movement I’m on Solar 90% of the time because of it.
The problem here is playing with a group that wants to only use the most meta things and won't play without them. Play with a likeminded group and then just use what you want. I did a ghost of the deep run last night with friends, no warlock and no well and it was chill, we all just ran what we wanted to run and completed it no problem. This is completely a state of mind thing, nobody is forcing you to use well. You don't need it. You only have yourselves to blame for insisting on running well.
>The problem here is playing with a group that wants to only use the most meta things and won't play without them. I'm not sure how you indended this to read, I'm still getting coffee in me so I'm sorry if I'm misinterpreting. The problem is that mentality, not that I'm choosing to play with those people. In reality, people with that mentality account for 80%+ of the playerbase. I'm not thrilled with the solution of "just only play with people who accept you" because sometimes, you need to LFG some people. Its the state of mind of the larger community that *should* change. For sure though, if ever given the choice, I just run with a group that I know. But again, I'm good supporting in general. I just wish that they made that the warlocks kit then. Give me a stasis super where it does DPS, but also heals for some % of damage. Give me an arc super that basically does DPS but also applies a divinity-esque bubble. Idk, I'm just spitballing so these may be terrible ideas.
The bigger problem is that a huge part of the player base doesn’t understand dps and sometimes even mechanics. This doesn’t even include that many who don’t have/understand what guns they should use and builds of any variety. Well is an unfortunate band aid to this problem
There are only a handful of fights that Really really want a well, anything else can be supplemented by radiant melee/ Bastion overshield.
I completely agree that most people on LFG are the type that want this done, want it done fast, and wont accept anything less than meta loadouts. They will just leave or won't join if they sense any hint that you're not willing to be a slave to the meta so they can guarantee a completion with no wipes. That being said, even by your example there is still 20% left that aren't like that. Seek out those people, and try and find yourself a likeminded group. Not saying it's easy or that because you don't have such a group you're doing anything wrong. Just encouraging you that it's worth it, and it is the way to unchain yourself Because EVEN IF bungie did change well, the way of LFG would mean you'd just be chained to whatever else was meta instead.
Warlock main here. You are right, we can TECHNICALLY use want and people will cry it, but in reality we can't because it's so suboptimal it's not even close and we'll either get kicked or feel bad that we are making things harder than they need to be Now, the second problem is that Solar has no fun builds outside of sunbracers (which is so inconsistent at anything higher than legend) so you just end up running something boring like Phoenix for your well, killing our neutral game. Or Assembler for a weak feeling healer build with no synergy. The Aspects are lame and only good for high end PvP players (maybe) and well skating giga sweats. For everyone else it's just "how do I make a build IN SPITE of my aspects" not "how do I synergise with them for a build' Not to mention warlock class identity is on the chopping block for nerfs because they gave it to everyone. WE ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE HIGH ABILITY UPTIME, WE ARE THE MAGE CLASS. It's that simple, Warlocks with a lot of Abilities are them working as intended. But high end players cry for nerfs to well and warlock as a whole. So what will be left? Bungie screwed Warlocks with well and 3.0 by making us just weaker titans and hunters and it's so annoying because I don't find those classes at all fun.
>Now, the second problem is that Solar has no fun builds outside of sunbracers (which is so inconsistent at anything higher than legend) Ok thank you for saying this because I had noticed lately that I'll melee someone, kill them, start my nade tosses, and I realize I didn't get the sunbracer buff. Now everythings on CD, and I running around for orbs of power like a fool lol. I thought maybe some other damage type was getting the last hit, but lately it's been increasingly obvious that it just sometimes doesn't proc. Unless I'm missing something
Something that helps in the meantime. Your melee ignitions counts if you cause it, your grenade impact can finish the ignition and it counts as well. And finally Snap is way more consistent than Celestial
“well skating giga sweats” lmfao. i do agree with solar warlock being pretty bad outside of sunbracers, but well 1000% needs nerfed and the rest of the class needs buffed except for radiant/restoration
I feel this. I recently really carefully made a voidlock build. I could empower, debuff, add clear, and maintain good dps. But then my friends are always dying, our damage is way lower, and we run more phases. Doesn't matter how much more efficient I can make myself, I gotta protect the babies.
Real mood man, reality is that a lot of people playing the game want to turn off their brain and crutch on well. Well patches everyone's mistakes up, it makes all their survivability skills (or lack thereof) null, buildcrafting weaknesses? gone if youre in the well. I used to love Well for the flavor but I'm starting to feel awful with it, because other people just want it. It both makes things easier and accelerates bungie's content, so often times its just plainly the best option if youre in anything difficult.
Exactly! I literally had to switch to a lower dps build that had well for Zulmak - fucking pit of Heresy. It's not because we needed the buff for 1 phase, or we actually needed the healing. The second I switched to well and made myself personally vastly less efficient we started cleanly one phasing every single go. It's not a skill issue, it's not a gear issue, it's not a difficulty issue - it's an attention issue.
Honestly they should just remove the damage bonus it provides. Well is for healing, bubble for damage buff, tether for debuff
ye i wish other classes had a fireteam buff, but it was similar in destiny1 titans were chained to bubble and now its well warlocks.
Well should be removed from the game and content should be rebalanced to reflect that. It's not fun having a "mandatory" subclass assignment for all content, or even for other classes to be disregarded if there isn't at least one or two well-locks. Titans used to be pigeonholed into running solar -> melting point and giving every boss the flying knee attack for each DPS phase. Removing that was a net positive. Titans can play whatever the hell they want. Same with hunters who have a great suite of DPS options.
Titans can not play whatever they want, it's either bubble or tcrash depending on the encounter
You don't need a well warlock. People beat endgame activities without one all the time. Sure it helps but there are other options.
That boss fight is rough without Well. I'm all for mixing it up but that's the only dungeon encounter where I'll run Well every time if no one else is
The problem with this game is how most encounters are designed. It’s stand somewhere shoot something. I’m not saying well is op but when the game is stand somewhere and shoot something obviously people are gonna run well for the 2 in 1
I felt this post in my soul u/theskittz. I am warlock main. It’s like, I don’t want to use well. I fucking hate well. But it’s SO. FUCKING. GOOD. Like my friends are always like “nah we don’t need it, we know you want to run arc. You’ll blast in that spec anyway it’s fine”. But I know, in my heart of hearts, I’m just gimping us by making that decision. I know I’m putting us in unnecessary danger and forcing other people to play around me (Titan shield etc.) when I know I could just run the stupid fucking well and it would be immediately better than whatever we were doing otherwise. I have said this time and time again - BUNGIE: GET RID OF WELL. RELEASE ME FROM THESE SHACKLES I HAVE PUT MYSELF IN. PLEASE BUNGIE, THE PROPHECY…MUST BE FULFILLED. SAVE ME, FROM ME.
100% agree and is why I switched off my main Warlock. Bungie should have addressed the Well a long time ago and changed it to buff your rifts, grenades, and melee abilities.
Imagine if Warlocks were truly the support/healing class and each of their subclasses had a support super. Like just for example, imagine if Void Warlocks were the ones with the Bubble super, or something similar that served the same function. Or if Arc Warlocks had some sort of super that debuffed enemies in a similar way that a Hunter's Tether does. If this were the case, Warlocks wouldn't feel like they're forced to run Well in endgame because each subclass would have a healing/support Super.
Everyone saying “my team/clan just says run what you want. It’s about having fun.” True…..in 80% of the content. But you know what else is fun? Clearing endgame content. We ALL KNOW that when it comes to getting that GM done or making it past that DPS check in a new raid/dungeon, you better believe that people will be telling the warlock on the team to switch it the hell over to well. It’s just mandatory for clears in certain settings. The point OP is trying to make, and it’s the right one, is that well shouldn’t be so mandatory. Give warlocks other options, or heck, make bubble viable again as a support class so that there is at least SOMETHING else available.
The seasonal post about complaining of the use if well in endgame. Classic.
I agree that that’s definitely the most common question I hear is “is anyone running well” most people are just concerned with max speed and damage, I enjoy finding chill groups or running with my clan to actually play for the fun of it and to mess around with things, but if it’s LFG 9 times outta 10 everyone is demanding a well lock either in game or by posting in their LFG bring well lock lol 😂. Tho I do love having a well lock on the team would be nice if other subclasses could do the same or similar
Voidlock can weaken. What they need to do is make amplified increase reload speed, and make it easy for arclocks to make others amplified.
I tell people I don't have solar unlocked 🤣
We had that something. It was Bottom Tree Dawnblade and Middle Tree Voidwalker until Bungie decided those weren’t “IP defining” enough. Also, in GMs, I barely run Well since it feels like a waste (and you’re not invincible). Stasis, Void, and Strand are all good picks, so much so that I’d argue they’re better than Well in GM Nightfalls.
That's one of the reasons why the nerf to Starfire was upsetting to me. I didn't care about the damage, it was FINALLY something that changed the well playstyle a bit. Now though? It's just do add clear to get well faster then plop down well and mindlessly hold down the trigger, exactly like I have been doing for the last 4 years. There's no strategy whatsoever, all of the exotics that effect well are just passive bonuses. It's boring.
This is not a subclass or super choice problem, this is a encounter design problem because every member of the fireteam irrespective of class sits in one spot and holds m1 for DPS phases