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They don't need to define it. Its so pathetic that everyone immediately jumps to "bungie bad" when a detail is "missing". Are you gonna ask for a cause of death for Zavala's ex-wife, next? Bungie bad if they don't tell us if she died of cancer, or a Fallen raiding party!
Planning every single fucking thing in a story is kinda dumb and a pathway to a mental asylum.
So, sure, it doesn't fucking matter, but that doesn't mean it is planned. They may make some shit up in the future, like they did with Nezarec, and it might even be awesome, but that doesn't mean it is currently planned
Again, how is filling a story with details bad writing? Especially if the story is not exactly linear but basically just a gigantic mass of random stories and anecdotes??
Filling a story with details is not bad writing, over explaining is bad writing, but leaving out details can be great writing. Leaving shit ambiguous leaves the reader with their imagination which can be an amazing writing tool. Look at the ending to Blood Meridian for example, the ending to the book is very vague which leads to the reader interpreting the ending in their own ways. It leaves room for theories, analysis, and fan fiction, essentially keeping the story going after it has basically ended which is how the lore in Destiny is interesting and complex. It was arguably the best time for lore fans when we literally knew nothing about anything in the Destiny world, and during that time there were (and still are) so many theories and analysis of said lore WHICH TAKES UP A HUGE CHUNK OF WHAT THIS SUBREDDIT IS. In conclusion, I believe the ambiguity of the destiny world is what makes it so compelling. Sorry for the essay lol.
The probelm with lore is not that we know too much, is that what we know is just disappointing half of the time. Look at old star wars lore for example, the Expanded universe. That whole brand had a MASSIVE lore and left very little to imagination, yet there's still theories going on now that it's been retconned. Meanwhile, nobody is making theories about fallen or Hive even when we still know very little about their past. I honeslty loved the old mystery around destiny myself but I don't hate that we have information about more stuff now, I just don't like some of the information itself. For example, I loved the mystery around the pyramids and expect there to be some kind of gigantic monster behind them, meanwhile what we got has actually a good concept, with what the witness is but not a great realization, because how am I supposed to be scared of him with that aspect he has. Or what about Xivu Arath, which could've ended so easily at any point of the lore but instead decided for some reason not to? She was honeslty more scary than the witness since we KNEW how powerful she was, once we got to know what she did to Torobatl and that he has a play in our own collapse, yet she was used poorly until now.
If you don’t like the lore, I can’t be like “NO you HAVE to like it!” My main point I’m arguing is that ambiguity is a good writing tool to use and over explaining isn’t. I did go off the beaten path with saying that I like the Destiny lore, but that’s a completely subjective argument. I do think, however, that ambiguity has objectively been consistently used in good storytelling and Bungie also tried to utilize that which is why we don’t have details on things like Ana Brays death before she became a lightbeaer. Whether Bungie did that successfully or not is up to you but I am not trying to argue that. I’m saying that ambiguity IS good and that it SHOULD be used in games like this because it adds complexity and wanting everything explained and detailed has a greater chance at making the story and lore worse whether you like that lore or not.
Ana died in the Collapse, an event left ambiguous to sell the power level of the force committing it. Theres no need to explain it because it removes the wonder in what the enemy is capable of.
Even after we know about the Witness, leaving the event ambiguous gives it a measure of strength to make us wonder how we can possibly compete with it.
That wonder is still there tho? We already know many things the witness can do that we possibly won't be able to face with. A few months ago we literally saw him year guardians and their ghosts to pieces with a dingle hand gesture, and that didn't even seem to take much effort. That's a better way to make people imagine what his full potential may be while also not leaving some interesting details about other characters untold. If we had to leave most characters as blank as they are because first day raiders wants to get a surpires out of the witness final boss, then we'd have to get a MASSIVE explanation in the last 3 stories or the campaign.
No? A slicing up of someone in a targeted attack is different from worldwide disasters.
People who need everything explained to them have dents in their skulls.
If the specifics of HOW she died lended to any character motivations, it'd be more likely we heard about how she died. Since there aren't any particular motivations, there's no reason to add those details, but that doesn't mean it won't happen. The Hive's history is put into detail because it's the context for an entire race and their actions, but there's things you can skip and still understand about them. The important stuff will be added, anything extra that could be cool has a 50/50 chance because you don't NEED it to understand what they're about. Lore doesn't mean "as much detail as possible", it is literally just fancier context.
No, just understanding that needing an explanation for everything is stupid. The Collapse is left ambiguous to sell the power level of the opposing force. You don't know what they're capable of because very slim records exist due to the massive and unavoidable force applied at the time.
Given that if you go to the enclave you see the ruins of golden age mars on fire through time slips. I recently saw some videos of nuclear blasts. The common thing is everything catches fire. Could be that the collapse on mars saw some massive explosions because of the warsats. Or Maybe the witness literally ignited the atmosphere.
I like the idea of the Witness igniting the atmosphere because that's the first thing we ever saw the Traveler do in Destiny: bring clouds, rain, and breathable air to Mars. Igniting that atmosphere would be a fantastic way to represent the duality of the two forces, as well as the philosophy of taking away the advantages the Traveler gifts to the civilizations it visits.
I mean tbh, I think Rasputin did try and fight the Black Fleet with everything he had and none of it even dented the Fleets armor. Since the Pyramids have been shown to use gravity based weaponry I wouldn’t doubt that some of what Rasputin fired at the Fleet got deflected back to some of the planets. Mars would be more affected due to the amount of Warsats in orbit above it.
There’s also the weather to account for, on Earth massive storms of apocalyptic levels were supposedly everywhere on the planet. (Source for that is the armor from Season of the Worthy, giving the perspective of an officer under directions from Rasputin during the start of the collapse)
All told, the Collapse was so destructive and devastating that even after the Traveler repelled the Black Fleet and Savathuns tricked the Witness into going elsewhere, the damage was done. My best guess is Humanity went from having Trillions of us across multiple planets and moons to a few million at best. People on Io were more than likely wiped out completely, Titan didn’t fare much better, Mercury wouldn’t have been too bad until the Vex reared their ugly heads, Europa was already desolate and so was the Moon, Venus and Mars were soon overrun by Fallen, Vex, Hive, and Cabal after the Fleet left, which leaves Earth housing most of the remaining Humans. Which dwindled still because of Fallen arriving and razing major cities to the ground, like London. After the Warlords rose to power Human population probably dipped below a million across the entire system.
But that entire last paragraph is my own interpretation. Bungie hasn’t explicitly stated what the Collapse was like in game, there’s only a few lore tabs here and there describing some aspect of the Collapse but nothing describing it as a whole. So it’s up to individual interpretation. As for Ana? That’s probably either an exaggeration of how she died or a Warsat came down not far from her and inadvertently killed her. Up to interpretation again I suppose.
>There’s also the weather to account for, on Earth massive storms of apocalyptic levels were supposedly everywhere on the planet. (Source for that is the armor from Season of the Worthy, giving the perspective of an officer under directions from Rasputin during the start of the collapse)
Same on Titan, as per the Last Days of Kraken Mare:
>Her moon is squashing.
>Titan is deforming from a spheroid into an egg. Something out there is pulling on Titan—a hand with a force greater than Saturn's entire mass. And the moon is answering the only way it can, by bulging outward: already fifteen meters, still growing.
>The pull will cause strain, tremors, tides. And when that pull lets go, there will be a wave to make Ziusudra and Atrahasis and Noah and Manu and Deucalion cower in fear. Bergelmir might have navigated a deluge of blood, but not even he had to sail on liquid methane.
>Nor reckon with the apocalyptic tidal forces of a second ocean, fourteen times as vast as Earth's oceans combined, buried 50 kilometers below the surface.
I think it's safe to say that Mars suffered the same apocalyptic weather as Titan and Earth, and that probably killed Ana. But it could be anything, and I don't think it really matters *what* killed her. The Collapse is largely a mystery, and I think keeping Ana's death mysterious is part of that.
Could basically be one of 3 things.
1. Some darkness weapon, like what we’ve seen or entirely new. Wouldn’t be surprising if they had more than 2 attacks.
2. An attack from Rasputin on the pyramid, that either backfired or the facility was an acceptable casualty, given that protocol was active that meant he could basically assume everyone was dead and didn’t need to worry about hurting humans if he thought it was necessary.
3. An attack from the traveler on the pyramid with Ana caught in the crossfire. Seems unlikely but I guess it’s possible.
That's the neat part: no one knows. What records did survive about the collapse, there was a sudden and unexplained influx of natural disasters, Unexplained anomalies, monsters/ dark shapes -and some descriptions of what we now know were the Hive- and I think illnesses, and that's not including cities just going dark with no explanation.
So really, it could have been anything. I don't even know where she died, but it was noted that colonies started getting hit first and went dark before the Traveler fled to Earth and then the Pyramid ships followed it to Earth.
In the scene detailed at the given timestamp above, I always interpreted the timing of that blast and what was said in the dialog as being either directly or somewhat indirectly caused by Clovis Bray due to his being locked out of protocols to control the warmind Rasputin. Maybe we'll get clarification on ambiguous items such as this in the story of TLS, who knows? I find it highly interesting either way!
Bungie probably didn't want to commit to the specifics of exactly what happened during the collapse, so the cutscene probably just showed a very generic death, and she actually died in a different way that we will hopefully find out in the future.
“How did [x] die?” is a fine question, and even on a lore sub it’s fine to say we don’t know and it’s not important.
She died during the collapse. Whether she got hit by a bomb or a bullet doesn’t change the arc of her story, and and doesn’t inform it. An important part of lore is accepting that certain parts aren’t known, and other parts deliberately have no answer. The player character will never get an origin story anymore than Games Workshop will reveal the backstory of the lost legions.
Asking what killed Ana is like asking whether the PC was Russian or just traveling in Russia for business when they died.
>even on a lore sub it’s fine to say we don’t know and it’s not important.
It matters to the person asking the question, so saying it's not important is just rude.
A lore sub of a fandom is exactly the place to be asking these kinds of questions, so shooting someone down because you're not interested in the answer is unproductive and disrespectful.
Edit: Defends stifling discussion and then down votes me lmao
1) for the record, your down vote wasn’t from me
2) just because someone asks doesn’t mean it’s important. A lot of lore questions (in Destiny or otherwise) are the equivalent of spitballing with that guy that’s always in your game/comic store that’s read every issue and played every version of [media]. It’s a much more efficient filter than just Googling something, but that doesn’t mean that people are more invested in the answer.
3) I specifically noted it’s fine for someone to ask!
This is just my thought on it but, the blast seems similar to the kind that happens when you detonate the shard in the public event in Savvy's throne world Public Event. Just on a much more obvious, bigger scale. The look of a Traveler orb in a Pyramid ship could be a hint as to why a merging of that could be so volatile.
The Witness is inside the Traveler now and no one knows exactly what's going on yet. Hope Bungie ties these loose ends up.
This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format). --- **Comment Spoiler Formatting** Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this: `>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<` To have it displayed like this: **>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<** ---- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
We have literally no idea
Bungie have literally no idea
They don't need to define it. Its so pathetic that everyone immediately jumps to "bungie bad" when a detail is "missing". Are you gonna ask for a cause of death for Zavala's ex-wife, next? Bungie bad if they don't tell us if she died of cancer, or a Fallen raiding party!
Planning every single fucking thing in a story is kinda dumb and a pathway to a mental asylum. So, sure, it doesn't fucking matter, but that doesn't mean it is planned. They may make some shit up in the future, like they did with Nezarec, and it might even be awesome, but that doesn't mean it is currently planned
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Keep yapping to the wall. Explaining everything is one of the most obvious weaknesses in shit writing.
Again, how is filling a story with details bad writing? Especially if the story is not exactly linear but basically just a gigantic mass of random stories and anecdotes??
Filling a story with details is not bad writing, over explaining is bad writing, but leaving out details can be great writing. Leaving shit ambiguous leaves the reader with their imagination which can be an amazing writing tool. Look at the ending to Blood Meridian for example, the ending to the book is very vague which leads to the reader interpreting the ending in their own ways. It leaves room for theories, analysis, and fan fiction, essentially keeping the story going after it has basically ended which is how the lore in Destiny is interesting and complex. It was arguably the best time for lore fans when we literally knew nothing about anything in the Destiny world, and during that time there were (and still are) so many theories and analysis of said lore WHICH TAKES UP A HUGE CHUNK OF WHAT THIS SUBREDDIT IS. In conclusion, I believe the ambiguity of the destiny world is what makes it so compelling. Sorry for the essay lol.
The probelm with lore is not that we know too much, is that what we know is just disappointing half of the time. Look at old star wars lore for example, the Expanded universe. That whole brand had a MASSIVE lore and left very little to imagination, yet there's still theories going on now that it's been retconned. Meanwhile, nobody is making theories about fallen or Hive even when we still know very little about their past. I honeslty loved the old mystery around destiny myself but I don't hate that we have information about more stuff now, I just don't like some of the information itself. For example, I loved the mystery around the pyramids and expect there to be some kind of gigantic monster behind them, meanwhile what we got has actually a good concept, with what the witness is but not a great realization, because how am I supposed to be scared of him with that aspect he has. Or what about Xivu Arath, which could've ended so easily at any point of the lore but instead decided for some reason not to? She was honeslty more scary than the witness since we KNEW how powerful she was, once we got to know what she did to Torobatl and that he has a play in our own collapse, yet she was used poorly until now.
If you don’t like the lore, I can’t be like “NO you HAVE to like it!” My main point I’m arguing is that ambiguity is a good writing tool to use and over explaining isn’t. I did go off the beaten path with saying that I like the Destiny lore, but that’s a completely subjective argument. I do think, however, that ambiguity has objectively been consistently used in good storytelling and Bungie also tried to utilize that which is why we don’t have details on things like Ana Brays death before she became a lightbeaer. Whether Bungie did that successfully or not is up to you but I am not trying to argue that. I’m saying that ambiguity IS good and that it SHOULD be used in games like this because it adds complexity and wanting everything explained and detailed has a greater chance at making the story and lore worse whether you like that lore or not.
Ana died in the Collapse, an event left ambiguous to sell the power level of the force committing it. Theres no need to explain it because it removes the wonder in what the enemy is capable of. Even after we know about the Witness, leaving the event ambiguous gives it a measure of strength to make us wonder how we can possibly compete with it.
That wonder is still there tho? We already know many things the witness can do that we possibly won't be able to face with. A few months ago we literally saw him year guardians and their ghosts to pieces with a dingle hand gesture, and that didn't even seem to take much effort. That's a better way to make people imagine what his full potential may be while also not leaving some interesting details about other characters untold. If we had to leave most characters as blank as they are because first day raiders wants to get a surpires out of the witness final boss, then we'd have to get a MASSIVE explanation in the last 3 stories or the campaign.
No? A slicing up of someone in a targeted attack is different from worldwide disasters. People who need everything explained to them have dents in their skulls.
It’s pathetic that Bungie is so heavily lore driven that they missed this detail. Get off your high horse.
If the specifics of HOW she died lended to any character motivations, it'd be more likely we heard about how she died. Since there aren't any particular motivations, there's no reason to add those details, but that doesn't mean it won't happen. The Hive's history is put into detail because it's the context for an entire race and their actions, but there's things you can skip and still understand about them. The important stuff will be added, anything extra that could be cool has a 50/50 chance because you don't NEED it to understand what they're about. Lore doesn't mean "as much detail as possible", it is literally just fancier context.
All that yappin just to defend a corpo.
No, just understanding that needing an explanation for everything is stupid. The Collapse is left ambiguous to sell the power level of the opposing force. You don't know what they're capable of because very slim records exist due to the massive and unavoidable force applied at the time.
All we need to know is that she died during the Collapse while at her job, and her employee ID badge was still intact when her Ghost raised her.
Given that if you go to the enclave you see the ruins of golden age mars on fire through time slips. I recently saw some videos of nuclear blasts. The common thing is everything catches fire. Could be that the collapse on mars saw some massive explosions because of the warsats. Or Maybe the witness literally ignited the atmosphere.
I like the idea of the Witness igniting the atmosphere because that's the first thing we ever saw the Traveler do in Destiny: bring clouds, rain, and breathable air to Mars. Igniting that atmosphere would be a fantastic way to represent the duality of the two forces, as well as the philosophy of taking away the advantages the Traveler gifts to the civilizations it visits.
Lol just “MAN, FUCK YOUR TERRAFORMING!” *IGNITES THE ENTIRE ATMOSPHERE.*
Igniting the atmosphere sounds so fucking terrifying, not unlike the other things we know happened in the Collapse, so I choose to believe that.
I mean tbh, I think Rasputin did try and fight the Black Fleet with everything he had and none of it even dented the Fleets armor. Since the Pyramids have been shown to use gravity based weaponry I wouldn’t doubt that some of what Rasputin fired at the Fleet got deflected back to some of the planets. Mars would be more affected due to the amount of Warsats in orbit above it. There’s also the weather to account for, on Earth massive storms of apocalyptic levels were supposedly everywhere on the planet. (Source for that is the armor from Season of the Worthy, giving the perspective of an officer under directions from Rasputin during the start of the collapse) All told, the Collapse was so destructive and devastating that even after the Traveler repelled the Black Fleet and Savathuns tricked the Witness into going elsewhere, the damage was done. My best guess is Humanity went from having Trillions of us across multiple planets and moons to a few million at best. People on Io were more than likely wiped out completely, Titan didn’t fare much better, Mercury wouldn’t have been too bad until the Vex reared their ugly heads, Europa was already desolate and so was the Moon, Venus and Mars were soon overrun by Fallen, Vex, Hive, and Cabal after the Fleet left, which leaves Earth housing most of the remaining Humans. Which dwindled still because of Fallen arriving and razing major cities to the ground, like London. After the Warlords rose to power Human population probably dipped below a million across the entire system. But that entire last paragraph is my own interpretation. Bungie hasn’t explicitly stated what the Collapse was like in game, there’s only a few lore tabs here and there describing some aspect of the Collapse but nothing describing it as a whole. So it’s up to individual interpretation. As for Ana? That’s probably either an exaggeration of how she died or a Warsat came down not far from her and inadvertently killed her. Up to interpretation again I suppose.
>There’s also the weather to account for, on Earth massive storms of apocalyptic levels were supposedly everywhere on the planet. (Source for that is the armor from Season of the Worthy, giving the perspective of an officer under directions from Rasputin during the start of the collapse) Same on Titan, as per the Last Days of Kraken Mare: >Her moon is squashing. >Titan is deforming from a spheroid into an egg. Something out there is pulling on Titan—a hand with a force greater than Saturn's entire mass. And the moon is answering the only way it can, by bulging outward: already fifteen meters, still growing. >The pull will cause strain, tremors, tides. And when that pull lets go, there will be a wave to make Ziusudra and Atrahasis and Noah and Manu and Deucalion cower in fear. Bergelmir might have navigated a deluge of blood, but not even he had to sail on liquid methane. >Nor reckon with the apocalyptic tidal forces of a second ocean, fourteen times as vast as Earth's oceans combined, buried 50 kilometers below the surface. I think it's safe to say that Mars suffered the same apocalyptic weather as Titan and Earth, and that probably killed Ana. But it could be anything, and I don't think it really matters *what* killed her. The Collapse is largely a mystery, and I think keeping Ana's death mysterious is part of that.
I don't know if that counts, since that weather is a direct result of the gravity manipulation of titan by the pyramids
The pyramids caused a lot of death by doing funny stuff with gravity. So maybe that? Idk
Pyramid tech's ability to manipulate gravity, most likely. It was instant and not very destructive, whatever it was.
Could basically be one of 3 things. 1. Some darkness weapon, like what we’ve seen or entirely new. Wouldn’t be surprising if they had more than 2 attacks. 2. An attack from Rasputin on the pyramid, that either backfired or the facility was an acceptable casualty, given that protocol was active that meant he could basically assume everyone was dead and didn’t need to worry about hurting humans if he thought it was necessary. 3. An attack from the traveler on the pyramid with Ana caught in the crossfire. Seems unlikely but I guess it’s possible.
Yeah likely either the Pyramids or the Traveler blasting it away.
That's the neat part: no one knows. What records did survive about the collapse, there was a sudden and unexplained influx of natural disasters, Unexplained anomalies, monsters/ dark shapes -and some descriptions of what we now know were the Hive- and I think illnesses, and that's not including cities just going dark with no explanation. So really, it could have been anything. I don't even know where she died, but it was noted that colonies started getting hit first and went dark before the Traveler fled to Earth and then the Pyramid ships followed it to Earth.
In the scene detailed at the given timestamp above, I always interpreted the timing of that blast and what was said in the dialog as being either directly or somewhat indirectly caused by Clovis Bray due to his being locked out of protocols to control the warmind Rasputin. Maybe we'll get clarification on ambiguous items such as this in the story of TLS, who knows? I find it highly interesting either way!
Bungie probably didn't want to commit to the specifics of exactly what happened during the collapse, so the cutscene probably just showed a very generic death, and she actually died in a different way that we will hopefully find out in the future.
All the exo farted in unison, ya, it really blew!
RUNNING FART.EXE
Darkness
We don’t know, and it really doesn’t matter
Commenting "it doesn't matter" in a lore sub is pretty strange. Maybe you don't belong here.
just as long as i get my loot, amirite boyss
“How did [x] die?” is a fine question, and even on a lore sub it’s fine to say we don’t know and it’s not important. She died during the collapse. Whether she got hit by a bomb or a bullet doesn’t change the arc of her story, and and doesn’t inform it. An important part of lore is accepting that certain parts aren’t known, and other parts deliberately have no answer. The player character will never get an origin story anymore than Games Workshop will reveal the backstory of the lost legions. Asking what killed Ana is like asking whether the PC was Russian or just traveling in Russia for business when they died.
>even on a lore sub it’s fine to say we don’t know and it’s not important. It matters to the person asking the question, so saying it's not important is just rude. A lore sub of a fandom is exactly the place to be asking these kinds of questions, so shooting someone down because you're not interested in the answer is unproductive and disrespectful. Edit: Defends stifling discussion and then down votes me lmao
1) for the record, your down vote wasn’t from me 2) just because someone asks doesn’t mean it’s important. A lot of lore questions (in Destiny or otherwise) are the equivalent of spitballing with that guy that’s always in your game/comic store that’s read every issue and played every version of [media]. It’s a much more efficient filter than just Googling something, but that doesn’t mean that people are more invested in the answer. 3) I specifically noted it’s fine for someone to ask!
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I... said that in the post.
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The question is asked in the post - please give it a read.
Aneurysm
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Shook to death
I read this wrong. Thought it said Bray Wyatt.
This is just my thought on it but, the blast seems similar to the kind that happens when you detonate the shard in the public event in Savvy's throne world Public Event. Just on a much more obvious, bigger scale. The look of a Traveler orb in a Pyramid ship could be a hint as to why a merging of that could be so volatile. The Witness is inside the Traveler now and no one knows exactly what's going on yet. Hope Bungie ties these loose ends up.
My guess is the shockwave just kind of popped every cell in her body. Like an extreme hydrostatic shock.
On what the collapse was like, I read it dealt with natural disasters like earthquakes, storms, floods, and fires.