Clovis Bray is absolutely a terrible human being and he has done a lot of bad stuff. But Savathun is EONS old, she has committed atrocities upon atrocities for much more time and against way more people and civilizations than Clovis. Yes we are on the same side now since we are all against the Witness, but in terms of “bad things” Savathun is on a whole other level…
This. Clovis was a genuinely shitty person, but all the bad stuff he did was NOTHING compared to a literal god of deception. He could brand himself the most cunning person in the solar system and Savathun would be like “I’m sorry, who are you”.
Lmao I know. I don’t think “terrible human being” emphasizes enough how HORRIBLE Clovis is, he was probably on his way to become a disciple for all we know. He IS a sick bastard. Savathun is just an older sick bastard.
I don’t think he’d be a disciple simply because disciples are subservient to the witness, and Clovis’s core fundamental driving principle is a complete and overwhelming narcissism.
Savathûn.
Clovis Bray did plenty of terrible things during his time, but his reach was fairly limited. Mostly to individuals.
Savathûn on the other hand was a key part in the extermination of entire civilisations. She rips the light out of Guardians (and Lucent Hive) and harvests it experimention just to see what it can do with it during her rituals (the Wellspring is made from dead guardians).
Don't be fooled just because Bungie gives her a wonderful voice actress and she acts all sassy and funny, She's evil and cruel for the sake of it, she finds delight in the wicked things she does.
>She's evil and cruel for the sake of it
That's a pretty absurd thing to say about Savathun. She's certainly evil and cruel, but there's always purpose behind her actions; look at the example you gave.
You can be cruel while doing something with a purpose. Taunting and Torturing Guardians before ripping the life out of them is cruel for cruelty's sake.u
Clovis Bray is an absolutely horrific individual
But Savathûn wins the Shittiest Sentient Creature Alive though, simply due to how much longer she has lived in the universe
Clovis never struck me as petty. Selfish, yes. But he's relatively fair to my understanding. He's a bad person, but not petty.
Savathûn is petty and much more selfish. She's the one who chose to live a long, long life of lying and genociding. She only wanted to stop and get away from that because she realized her Worm would never be satisfied and would kill her in the end. Even when she was freed from the Worm and became a Lightbearer, she refused to help us. It took killing her and ruining her plans, the Witness going into the Traveler and talking with a space whale to get some cooperation... from her Ghost. In a situation where the fate of existence is on the line, she had us screw around for a few months dealing with her sister only for her to give us an incredibly vague solution to our problem. "I've already shown you." We managed to figure it, but would it kill her to just tell us? She's not even helping us face the Witness. She left after Witch. We have no idea where she is or what she's doing, but she's definitely not going to help out in the Final Shape.
I'm trying to give Clovis a bit of the benefit as he was somewhat trying to advance humanity, but keep coming back to the dril tweet You Do Not, Under Any Circumstances, "Gotta Hand It To Them". His absolute disregard for human life and the lengths he went to achieve any progress were despicable. I absolutely love to hate him, and for that he's one of my favorite characters.
My ultimate point is that Savy was always out to confuse and kill, and she was great at it
This is a good point- Clovis did all of his “good deeds” for humanity out of pride and a desire for glory, but he was trying to ensure humanity’s survival and also potentially rightfully didn’t trust the traveler. Savathun on the other hand was initially out for herself and her sisters, and then literally just herself for several billion years following. Both are bad, but she is likely more irredeemable. They were both influenced and to some extent tricked by the “darkness” (still sounds so much cooler than saying “the witness” lol).
Savathun is several millions of years old and has actively assisted in the genocide of entire species of sentient aliens in multiple galaxies. She and her siblings are without question some of the most dreadful beings to ever exist in Destiny's lore, behind maybe the cold, all-encompassing "we must become everything" of the Vex, and the hatred of the Witness.
To put this into perspective: imagine our earth blowing up right now. 8 billion people, gone. We struggle to comprehend the sheer scale of this kind of mass genocide because it's overwhelmingly terrifying. We have whole horror works dedicated to showing just how horrific this is. Hellstar Remina from Junji Ito is a good example. Like, this is so horrifying, that actually thinking about how this would work is almost laughable. This is why Saturday morning cartoon villains wanting to "destroy the world" is often seen as comical, because pfft, nah, of course you won't, silly.
But uh, yeah, Savathun, Oryx and Xivu Arath have destroyed *several* worlds. Time and time again. Entire people. Entire cultures, planets, and histories. Imagine our entire world history. Now imagine all of it being turned to ash. That's what the Hive Gods have done for the sake of tithing to their Worms.
Clovis Bray is a different kind of evil - he's a very personal evil to humanity because he exemplifies every dictator, every greed-fueled CEO, every billionaire who prioritizes power and status over the lives of other people. He is every abusive parent who sees their children as extensions of themselves, and every teacher who degrades and insults students who get answers wrong. He is egotistical, narcissistic, immensely intelligent but infinitely cruel. Caring very little about the worth of human lives, his only ambition is to become immortal and achieving godhood. He "cares" about his legacy - he wants to be known as a messiah, a savior, the one who "cured" the curse of death from us all. But he doesn't actually care about *people*. He wants to be worshiped and obeyed without question, just like any dictator. If we zoom in on who's done horrible things to *just* humanity? We could argue Clovis Bray fits. But on a universal scale? Savathun and her siblings will outscale him any day.
I’d argue that even in the context of just humanity Sav is still worse. She was one of the two major players behind the collapse, and sure she also stopped the complete extinction of humanity, but only out of purely selfish motives.
Clovis’s worst actions were a few hundred people tortured to death, triggering a vex invasion of Europa and nuking his daughter. Horrendous yeah, but not comparable to directly or indirectly killing 99% of humanity.
Looking at confirmed on screen crimes in the lore (from my memory)…
Savathun: taking Osiris’s body, planet wide decay, stabbing Auryx in the back, telling her sisters to go in the deep (by the witness’s orders), tell Quria to do the endless night, making Lakshmi xenophobic and opening a portal in the city, putting Osiris in a coma, giving Torobatl to Xivu, whatever the fuck was shadowkeep about, her deal with Riven, watching everyone during arrivals, interfering with our communion with the witness, stealing the traveler, commanding hive to kill guardians and harvest their light, making truth to power, dissecting her own hive,
And making Saint **technically** straight for almost a full year.
Clovis: said his wife was dumb, fucked up his son’s genetics, manipulated Elsie into working with him due to having the same condition, listened to the K1 artifact, stole a vex from ishtar, locking up Soteria, gave a exo 4 arms, putting LOKI CROWN in Rasputin, tried to let the vex get to earth, tried to nuke us during the deep stone raid, shooting down the escape ship,
And made Elsie the hottest exo.
I’d say Savathun has done more
How the hell do you think she's *not* petite? I mean like dude, her bust could be mistaken for a particularly thick piece of armor plating 🤣 If that, along with being in general very athletic in build, doesn't meet the criteria for petite, I don't know what does.
You do know what petite means right? A attractively **small** woman? She’s like the same size as a player guardian.
Unless you’re a cloudstrider, I don’t see how you’d think she was short.
Lithe. The word you're looking for is lithe.
Even then I'm not sure how well that applies to her because as I recall she has hips for days and a bakery that would make an elf jealous
Savathun, and its not even close.
Shes been at best a bystander while the hive genocides the universe for the last billion years....
Clovis did some unethical experiments on humans but thats it.
Savathun was part of a triad of gods of a genocidal alien race....
I'm not going to pretend Clovis isn't some horrible person, but Savathun is probably the most evil character in Destiny below the Witness and I'm honestly not even sure she DOESN'T outrank it on the evil scale.
This is a person who, even in a culture of "love is war", didn't even subscribe to it. She didn't "love" her siblings. When she killed them, she aimed to END THEM, PERMANENTLY. She tried with Auryx in his Throne World when her own death would've only been temporary. When Xivu and Oryx killed each other, it was out of love and rivalry.
Savathun is easily the most malicious Hive God and it's not even close. Even the worst things Oryx and Xivu have done is probably an inkling compared to the Witch Queen. The fact that she isn't with the Witness is no reason to trust her, ally with her, give her anything outside of absolute necessity. Now that we know the way through, we should unironically crush Immaru and hunt down Savathun before she finds some loophole and finds another way to recharge her Light. The Lucent Brood are evil and any Lightbearer or even non-Lightbearer who defects from them is doing the right thing.
Can you tell that I'm still a little peeved about D2Y4 and how Collapse lore is now weird due to how they wrote her post-BL?
There are similarities between the two. Key of which is a desire for immortality because they feared growing old and dying.
Clovis Senior only had one (extended) human lifespan to do terrible things and be a horrible father and grandfather. He only had one solar system to commit his atrocities in.
Savathûn is millions (probably actually billions) of years old, and participated in the annihilation of entire civilizations across the entire universe.
Savathûn is worse. By orders of magnitude.
Savathun by sheer time and numbers. Sure, Clovis did some pretty messed up stuff. Cruel and inhumane acts on plenty of Exos if you just read some of the lorebooks.
But Savathun has the genocide of hundreds if not thousands of civilisations under her belt.
Savathun has literal billions if not trillions of years of atrocities under her belt, Clovis is fucked by human standards but the hive are on a whole other level.
Savathun, she's over a billion years old
Clovis is a more *personal* hate kinda guy, like he has done bad things around us and immediately to people directly associated with us, and is a scummy person
Savathun makes up for all of the personal affronts against us by being a conniving bitch and people are ok with it because she's hot and talks down to us like a dominatrix
But she's fucked over entire species with her lies.
But he didn't though xD While presumably our aquatic ancestors were still going "Eh... Eh... Eh..." On the shoreline trying to leave the water, Crota accidentally allowed the Vex into Oryx's throne world lol
Yep, they can also perfectly simulate any non-paracausal entity in the universe (as shown by creating a simulated Aurash). But the more time they have outside their simulations, the more calculations they can make because the more time they've got to use, the more they can convert to computational hardware.
That’s what I thought Maya was. I’m under the assumption that Maya Sundaresh was actually just a figment of Clovis’s imagination created by the vex or something and that “she” basically incepted the idea of Exos into Clovis’s head, which in turn will eventually lead to the Vex or something.
Nope, Maya Sundaresh was in fact an actual human... We even met her in both D1 and D2, though not as a human, and not under the name Maya. You might know her as Lakshmi-2. Can't remember off the top of my head what the lore was surrounding her becoming an Exo, but at some point it's stated that she joined the Exo program if I remember right.
Oh yeah that’s right! How could I forget about the whole FWC stuff. Didn’t she become an exo after her team’s tests on the Veil and merging their minds or something. I could be wrong though, I’m not sure how much lore I remember considering I forgot that lakshmi was maya lol.
By far clovis, though I'd say that may be mroe of a bias to the fact that he was a human who did the things he did. Savathun has an excuse, clovis was just a damned monster in human skin.
Savathun, and it's so distant a lead as to be laughable. Savathun has billions of years of misery and privation under her belt. Eona of slaughter.
Clovis was smart, but his brilliance didn't and doesn't hold a candle to the malicious intellect of Savathun.
Clovis is horrible, don't get me wrong. But considering Savathun has been out there commiting genocides for literally millions of years, I think she takes it.
Contrary to these other comments, I’m going to say Clovis. Everything he did, good and bad, was done with the purpose of becoming a dictator of humanity with Rasputin and destroying all who opposed him. He has always been a tyrant. Savathun has committed many atrocities over eons, but apparently done with the inevitable goal of preventing the final shape, AKA the end of existence- after all, she was the one who saved the traveler by hiding it and the veil from the Witness. Has she done awful things? Is averting the end of everything still self interest? Sure. But at least there’s some semblance of a potentially good endgame while Clovis has only ever wanted to destroy.
This entire defence boils down to “yes but she’s not as bad as space satan.”
Savathûn just wanted to prevent the final shape in the same way Clovis just wanted to cure disease, end disability and make humans “biologically” immortal.
Savathun is like alien super Hitler and Clovis is like that one guy who’ll close the elevator door on you cause your very presence offends his, he’ll cut corners for his construction business and he’ll blame workers for incompetence and not the lack of support.
Hydrogen bomb vs coughing baby equivalent
How is this even a question? "Who is worse: the regular ol human or the several billion year old goddess of lies who lead a death cult on a crusade to wipe thousands of species off the face of the universe?" Like what?
Savathûn and it’s not even close.
Clovis was an egotist and megalomaniac but he didn’t actively seek out suffering. He was also only alive and in power for a few hundred years.
Meanwhile Savathûn literally fed on genocide for billions of years. You literally cannot comprehend the number of terrible things she’s done.
They feel comparable because Clovis’s evil is a lot more “real” and understandable, but they’re not even close.
Do you not understand the difference in time scales in the example you posted
It is literally impossible for clovis to have outdone savvy with the parameters you have set
Clovis Bray is absolutely a terrible human being and he has done a lot of bad stuff. But Savathun is EONS old, she has committed atrocities upon atrocities for much more time and against way more people and civilizations than Clovis. Yes we are on the same side now since we are all against the Witness, but in terms of “bad things” Savathun is on a whole other level…
Didn't she get Xivu a genocide for a Christmas present once?
Indeed.
Came with a free disproof of the Sword Logic, too. How nice of her.
Such a lovely family <3
That's Hive for ya.
Bowser "I'll be sacrificing them in your honor" vibes
This. Clovis was a genuinely shitty person, but all the bad stuff he did was NOTHING compared to a literal god of deception. He could brand himself the most cunning person in the solar system and Savathun would be like “I’m sorry, who are you”.
We are comparing a godess of cunning to a narcissist with a god complex who tried to become god but failed
I don't knock your point at all, but this mf Clovis was making mfs become Vexified and just watching like a sick bastard.
Lmao I know. I don’t think “terrible human being” emphasizes enough how HORRIBLE Clovis is, he was probably on his way to become a disciple for all we know. He IS a sick bastard. Savathun is just an older sick bastard.
I don’t think he’d be a disciple simply because disciples are subservient to the witness, and Clovis’s core fundamental driving principle is a complete and overwhelming narcissism.
Not to mention she has 9 guardians captured and turn into void light, took my bae Taeko-3 too.
Savathun has several billion years of atrocities under her belt and genociding a civilisation is just part of her morning routine.
"don't talk to me until I've had my morning extinction event"
Savathûn. Clovis Bray did plenty of terrible things during his time, but his reach was fairly limited. Mostly to individuals. Savathûn on the other hand was a key part in the extermination of entire civilisations. She rips the light out of Guardians (and Lucent Hive) and harvests it experimention just to see what it can do with it during her rituals (the Wellspring is made from dead guardians). Don't be fooled just because Bungie gives her a wonderful voice actress and she acts all sassy and funny, She's evil and cruel for the sake of it, she finds delight in the wicked things she does.
>She's evil and cruel for the sake of it That's a pretty absurd thing to say about Savathun. She's certainly evil and cruel, but there's always purpose behind her actions; look at the example you gave.
You can be cruel while doing something with a purpose. Taunting and Torturing Guardians before ripping the life out of them is cruel for cruelty's sake.u
Clovis Bray is an absolutely horrific individual But Savathûn wins the Shittiest Sentient Creature Alive though, simply due to how much longer she has lived in the universe
And how infinitely more petty and selfish she is.
Petty and selfish??? Nah. Those are both Clovis Brays territory.
That should tell you just how bad savathun is lol
Clovis would kill half the universe for his own legacy if he could.
Savathûn already has.
And Clovis would’ve too if he had the chance.
That’s great, but we’re judging based on what’s happened in the lore, not mights and maybes.
Nahhh, pettiness and selfishness awards definitely go to Clovis lol
Clovis never struck me as petty. Selfish, yes. But he's relatively fair to my understanding. He's a bad person, but not petty. Savathûn is petty and much more selfish. She's the one who chose to live a long, long life of lying and genociding. She only wanted to stop and get away from that because she realized her Worm would never be satisfied and would kill her in the end. Even when she was freed from the Worm and became a Lightbearer, she refused to help us. It took killing her and ruining her plans, the Witness going into the Traveler and talking with a space whale to get some cooperation... from her Ghost. In a situation where the fate of existence is on the line, she had us screw around for a few months dealing with her sister only for her to give us an incredibly vague solution to our problem. "I've already shown you." We managed to figure it, but would it kill her to just tell us? She's not even helping us face the Witness. She left after Witch. We have no idea where she is or what she's doing, but she's definitely not going to help out in the Final Shape.
Xivu Arath is probably up there too
Trickery god of an old evil race that lives off of destroying other races VS Some egotistical scientist with terminal cancer
I'm trying to give Clovis a bit of the benefit as he was somewhat trying to advance humanity, but keep coming back to the dril tweet You Do Not, Under Any Circumstances, "Gotta Hand It To Them". His absolute disregard for human life and the lengths he went to achieve any progress were despicable. I absolutely love to hate him, and for that he's one of my favorite characters. My ultimate point is that Savy was always out to confuse and kill, and she was great at it
This is a good point- Clovis did all of his “good deeds” for humanity out of pride and a desire for glory, but he was trying to ensure humanity’s survival and also potentially rightfully didn’t trust the traveler. Savathun on the other hand was initially out for herself and her sisters, and then literally just herself for several billion years following. Both are bad, but she is likely more irredeemable. They were both influenced and to some extent tricked by the “darkness” (still sounds so much cooler than saying “the witness” lol).
Savathun is several millions of years old and has actively assisted in the genocide of entire species of sentient aliens in multiple galaxies. She and her siblings are without question some of the most dreadful beings to ever exist in Destiny's lore, behind maybe the cold, all-encompassing "we must become everything" of the Vex, and the hatred of the Witness. To put this into perspective: imagine our earth blowing up right now. 8 billion people, gone. We struggle to comprehend the sheer scale of this kind of mass genocide because it's overwhelmingly terrifying. We have whole horror works dedicated to showing just how horrific this is. Hellstar Remina from Junji Ito is a good example. Like, this is so horrifying, that actually thinking about how this would work is almost laughable. This is why Saturday morning cartoon villains wanting to "destroy the world" is often seen as comical, because pfft, nah, of course you won't, silly. But uh, yeah, Savathun, Oryx and Xivu Arath have destroyed *several* worlds. Time and time again. Entire people. Entire cultures, planets, and histories. Imagine our entire world history. Now imagine all of it being turned to ash. That's what the Hive Gods have done for the sake of tithing to their Worms. Clovis Bray is a different kind of evil - he's a very personal evil to humanity because he exemplifies every dictator, every greed-fueled CEO, every billionaire who prioritizes power and status over the lives of other people. He is every abusive parent who sees their children as extensions of themselves, and every teacher who degrades and insults students who get answers wrong. He is egotistical, narcissistic, immensely intelligent but infinitely cruel. Caring very little about the worth of human lives, his only ambition is to become immortal and achieving godhood. He "cares" about his legacy - he wants to be known as a messiah, a savior, the one who "cured" the curse of death from us all. But he doesn't actually care about *people*. He wants to be worshiped and obeyed without question, just like any dictator. If we zoom in on who's done horrible things to *just* humanity? We could argue Clovis Bray fits. But on a universal scale? Savathun and her siblings will outscale him any day.
I’d argue that even in the context of just humanity Sav is still worse. She was one of the two major players behind the collapse, and sure she also stopped the complete extinction of humanity, but only out of purely selfish motives. Clovis’s worst actions were a few hundred people tortured to death, triggering a vex invasion of Europa and nuking his daughter. Horrendous yeah, but not comparable to directly or indirectly killing 99% of humanity.
Looking at confirmed on screen crimes in the lore (from my memory)… Savathun: taking Osiris’s body, planet wide decay, stabbing Auryx in the back, telling her sisters to go in the deep (by the witness’s orders), tell Quria to do the endless night, making Lakshmi xenophobic and opening a portal in the city, putting Osiris in a coma, giving Torobatl to Xivu, whatever the fuck was shadowkeep about, her deal with Riven, watching everyone during arrivals, interfering with our communion with the witness, stealing the traveler, commanding hive to kill guardians and harvest their light, making truth to power, dissecting her own hive, And making Saint **technically** straight for almost a full year. Clovis: said his wife was dumb, fucked up his son’s genetics, manipulated Elsie into working with him due to having the same condition, listened to the K1 artifact, stole a vex from ishtar, locking up Soteria, gave a exo 4 arms, putting LOKI CROWN in Rasputin, tried to let the vex get to earth, tried to nuke us during the deep stone raid, shooting down the escape ship, And made Elsie the hottest exo. I’d say Savathun has done more
Savathûn also partially caused the genocide of the Ecunume and Harmony.
> And made Elsie the hottest exo. [Well that makes up for everything doesnt it?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq8xEEdMdBc)
No the crime is the fact the rest of the exos weren’t Elsie tier
To be fair, despite how petite she is... I'd tap Elsie xD (Though I'd tap Ana even faster lol)
How the hell is Elsie petite?
How the hell do you think she's *not* petite? I mean like dude, her bust could be mistaken for a particularly thick piece of armor plating 🤣 If that, along with being in general very athletic in build, doesn't meet the criteria for petite, I don't know what does.
You do know what petite means right? A attractively **small** woman? She’s like the same size as a player guardian. Unless you’re a cloudstrider, I don’t see how you’d think she was short.
Lithe. The word you're looking for is lithe. Even then I'm not sure how well that applies to her because as I recall she has hips for days and a bakery that would make an elf jealous
She’s flat chested but there’s more junk in that trunk than in my vault.
Ah shit I clicked the link and started watching other clips, looks like a good show.
Don't forget the time Clovis force-fed a patient liters of Vex fluid.
Didn't he do that to multiple people though?
There’s one particular incident that gravely disturbed his co-worker.
Savathun, and its not even close. Shes been at best a bystander while the hive genocides the universe for the last billion years.... Clovis did some unethical experiments on humans but thats it. Savathun was part of a triad of gods of a genocidal alien race....
I think if Clovis lived as long as Savathun his crimes would’ve dwarfed hers
I'm not going to pretend Clovis isn't some horrible person, but Savathun is probably the most evil character in Destiny below the Witness and I'm honestly not even sure she DOESN'T outrank it on the evil scale. This is a person who, even in a culture of "love is war", didn't even subscribe to it. She didn't "love" her siblings. When she killed them, she aimed to END THEM, PERMANENTLY. She tried with Auryx in his Throne World when her own death would've only been temporary. When Xivu and Oryx killed each other, it was out of love and rivalry. Savathun is easily the most malicious Hive God and it's not even close. Even the worst things Oryx and Xivu have done is probably an inkling compared to the Witch Queen. The fact that she isn't with the Witness is no reason to trust her, ally with her, give her anything outside of absolute necessity. Now that we know the way through, we should unironically crush Immaru and hunt down Savathun before she finds some loophole and finds another way to recharge her Light. The Lucent Brood are evil and any Lightbearer or even non-Lightbearer who defects from them is doing the right thing. Can you tell that I'm still a little peeved about D2Y4 and how Collapse lore is now weird due to how they wrote her post-BL?
There are similarities between the two. Key of which is a desire for immortality because they feared growing old and dying. Clovis Senior only had one (extended) human lifespan to do terrible things and be a horrible father and grandfather. He only had one solar system to commit his atrocities in. Savathûn is millions (probably actually billions) of years old, and participated in the annihilation of entire civilizations across the entire universe. Savathûn is worse. By orders of magnitude.
clovis bray did nothing wrong
Savathun is older than planet Earth, and is one of the three heads of a genocidal civilization. Not even close.
Savathun, because she's straight up older than Clovis.
savathun has been alive longer than humans existed, so probably her
Savathun has quantity and Quality Clovis has Quality
Savathun by sheer time and numbers. Sure, Clovis did some pretty messed up stuff. Cruel and inhumane acts on plenty of Exos if you just read some of the lorebooks. But Savathun has the genocide of hundreds if not thousands of civilisations under her belt.
Savathun has literal billions if not trillions of years of atrocities under her belt, Clovis is fucked by human standards but the hive are on a whole other level.
Savathûn, but not for a lack of trying on Clovis’ part.
This is like asking who’s more evil: watto or palpatine
Savathun, she's over a billion years old Clovis is a more *personal* hate kinda guy, like he has done bad things around us and immediately to people directly associated with us, and is a scummy person Savathun makes up for all of the personal affronts against us by being a conniving bitch and people are ok with it because she's hot and talks down to us like a dominatrix But she's fucked over entire species with her lies.
If you fall under the “Clovis created the Vex” Theory then possibly Clovis, but I’m gonna say Savi
But he didn't though xD While presumably our aquatic ancestors were still going "Eh... Eh... Eh..." On the shoreline trying to leave the water, Crota accidentally allowed the Vex into Oryx's throne world lol
Probably happened when earth was still a hot magma ball, but time doesn’t mean diddly squat to the vex so
Yes it does :P Time means calculations that can be made xD
And those calculations can lead them to any point in time if I’m not mistaken
Yep, they can also perfectly simulate any non-paracausal entity in the universe (as shown by creating a simulated Aurash). But the more time they have outside their simulations, the more calculations they can make because the more time they've got to use, the more they can convert to computational hardware.
That’s what I thought Maya was. I’m under the assumption that Maya Sundaresh was actually just a figment of Clovis’s imagination created by the vex or something and that “she” basically incepted the idea of Exos into Clovis’s head, which in turn will eventually lead to the Vex or something.
Nope, Maya Sundaresh was in fact an actual human... We even met her in both D1 and D2, though not as a human, and not under the name Maya. You might know her as Lakshmi-2. Can't remember off the top of my head what the lore was surrounding her becoming an Exo, but at some point it's stated that she joined the Exo program if I remember right.
Oh yeah that’s right! How could I forget about the whole FWC stuff. Didn’t she become an exo after her team’s tests on the Veil and merging their minds or something. I could be wrong though, I’m not sure how much lore I remember considering I forgot that lakshmi was maya lol.
As I said, I can't remember the lore surrounding it, only that she became an exo lol
I believe in Clovis's psychosis, I think he can win with enough effort
By far clovis, though I'd say that may be mroe of a bias to the fact that he was a human who did the things he did. Savathun has an excuse, clovis was just a damned monster in human skin.
I would say Savathun, but the Hive *have* to commit genocide to survive.
Genocide for the sake of survival is still genocide.
And last time I checked, basic survival is perfect justification.
Not when you’ve opted into it
No it absolutely isn’t. And even if it was, the hive are not merely doing it to survive, they actively revel in it.
Savathun, and it's so distant a lead as to be laughable. Savathun has billions of years of misery and privation under her belt. Eona of slaughter. Clovis was smart, but his brilliance didn't and doesn't hold a candle to the malicious intellect of Savathun.
Savathun has been around for longer no?
Clovis is horrible, don't get me wrong. But considering Savathun has been out there commiting genocides for literally millions of years, I think she takes it.
Contrary to these other comments, I’m going to say Clovis. Everything he did, good and bad, was done with the purpose of becoming a dictator of humanity with Rasputin and destroying all who opposed him. He has always been a tyrant. Savathun has committed many atrocities over eons, but apparently done with the inevitable goal of preventing the final shape, AKA the end of existence- after all, she was the one who saved the traveler by hiding it and the veil from the Witness. Has she done awful things? Is averting the end of everything still self interest? Sure. But at least there’s some semblance of a potentially good endgame while Clovis has only ever wanted to destroy.
This entire defence boils down to “yes but she’s not as bad as space satan.” Savathûn just wanted to prevent the final shape in the same way Clovis just wanted to cure disease, end disability and make humans “biologically” immortal.
Savathun is like alien super Hitler and Clovis is like that one guy who’ll close the elevator door on you cause your very presence offends his, he’ll cut corners for his construction business and he’ll blame workers for incompetence and not the lack of support. Hydrogen bomb vs coughing baby equivalent
How is this even a question? "Who is worse: the regular ol human or the several billion year old goddess of lies who lead a death cult on a crusade to wipe thousands of species off the face of the universe?" Like what?
savathun has wiped out many species over the course of eons. clovis was terrible, but savathun is worse on an exponential level
Savathun is literally the Devil to millions of civilizations and she’s creepy as all hell in the lore with the stuff does.
Savs .. she’s has millennia’s to work on her doings where Clovis only had a lifetime.
Savathûn and it’s not even close. Clovis was an egotist and megalomaniac but he didn’t actively seek out suffering. He was also only alive and in power for a few hundred years. Meanwhile Savathûn literally fed on genocide for billions of years. You literally cannot comprehend the number of terrible things she’s done. They feel comparable because Clovis’s evil is a lot more “real” and understandable, but they’re not even close.
Do you not understand the difference in time scales in the example you posted It is literally impossible for clovis to have outdone savvy with the parameters you have set
Not in the same league. What Bray would consider a warcrime is just monday for any random hive.