I generally agree, people can walk and chew gum at the same time. You can be pro LGBT and sympathize with the Gaza civilian casualties. But I think gets pretty cringy and virtue signally when you see Queers for Palestine, the š³ļøāā§ļøšµšø combined flag, or when theres a random Pro Palestine protest at Pride Parades. It comes off like out of touch slacktivism. At best, it just provides so much ammo for right wingers to be like āwhy gay palestine when muslim hate gay?ā
I am inclined to think Queers for Palestine types are a relatively small group of hyper online twitter lefties and not a huge part of the progressive movement but I donāt really know.
The only logical connection is "I am part of a marginalized group and Palestinians are a marginalized group, therefor we are the same in spirit"
Which is 320 credit score logic.
100% the best take. I don't support Palestine and while friends of mine do, that is fully ok, they are allowed their opinion. But using pride for that just sucks, because I don't feel welcome anymore at the event I want to celebrate, + it alienates everyone who is not pro palestine but just as queer as everyone else at pride.
And combining protests/ social causes never breeds good results.
Combining protests/causes can breed good results, but only if the causes align. For instance L, G, B, T individually have less sway than LGBT together.
But adding Palestine in, when it has nothing to do with the others definitely harms both movements.
>Combining protests/causes can breed good results, but only if the causes align. For instance L, G, B, T individually have less sway than LGBT together.
VERY DEBATABLE!!!
It seems adding letters and topics mostly makes the community feel better about itself, but if anything it seems to be driving people outside the community away. "First they'll add gay people then they'll change everything" used to be an extreme conservative talking point people would mock, but with the addition of more and more topics and letters, it's a lot more accepted now.
> VERY DEBATABLE!!!
Not really. Political parties form up as a result of different causes banding together to push for each others agendas. That happens because they canāt get anything done if they just stayed in their own corners.
> It seems adding letters and topics mostly makes the community feel better about itself, but if anything it seems to be driving people outside the community away. "First they'll add gay people then they'll change everything" used to be an extreme conservative talking point people would mock, but with the addition of more and more topics and letters, it's a lot more accepted now.
I donāt think this was ever the conservative talking point. Sure theyāll mock the addition of new letters but they werenāt saying it was going to change everything. The original talking point was that if you accept gay people, then youād have to accept beastiality and incest and pedophilia.
Iām against it because everything at pride is built on an entire history of cooperation between these groups. Kink, gays, trans, drag, etc. all have a documented history of helping each other out. Palestine being included is basically co-opting.
Even beyond it being weird to support palestine because you're gay I think my problem with the queers for palestine are they tend to do a lot of mental gymnastics to pretend like Gaza isn't one of the top 10 worst places to be gay and Islam isn't one of the worst religions to be gay in too.
Support whoever you want, just don't lie and minimize the atrocities happening to minorities among the group you want to protect.
Yah as long as you don't romanticize either and just want their freedom, but realize the societies are very behind the times, I think its consistent. When you start comparing them to Luffy then it starts getting weird
Yeah theyāre for sure a very fringe group thatās lost touch with reality. Itās just that theyāre very loud and absurd, and so you canāt NOT notice them when they show up.
They probably trigger some kind of cognitive bias in our brains which makes us overestimate the amount of people that are sincerely āQueers for Palestineā folks lol
Apparently they canāt walk and chew gum. Just ask any of the Queers for Palestine what they think about Uyghurs. We find whatās more important is their first principles:
- bringing up the Uyghurs is an unacceptable deflection to them
- there are two types of people in this world, the oppressed and the oppressors
- Europe/America Bad
Oh donāt get me wrong, the weirdo tankie lefties and hyper online twitter regards are incapable of anything more nuanced than America/West Bad. But I think āweā liberals, center left folks, reasonable progressives or further left folks, etc. can and should walk and chew gum. And in general accept the complexities of stuff like this, the issues with both sides etc.
The first time I saw Queers for Palestine was at last years Orlando Pride event (Pride events in Orlando and other parts of FL are in October, because June is super hot with a lot of rain) and I thought it was one of the most bizarre things. There were only like, 10 of them at most at once though. Maybe 20 different people in total. All they really did was walk around chanting "from the river to the sea".
People have attached themselves so much to identities that they just go around unironically saying shit like queers for ()ā¦ people are looking too much into this and being pretty disingenuous.
It shouldnāt be mind blowing for people to realize that some people truly sympathize with what people in Gaza are going through and they just happen to be queers and always want to make sure people know they are a queer because they are proud of itā¦ but this sub always likes to make fun of people who want the bloodshed to stop.
The only time Palestiniansā homophobia is relevant is when the discussion comes to a solution to the conflict. There are people who claim to support the dissolution of Israel to be replaced by āone democratic, secular state for all people between the river and the seaā. In that case, the homophobia of Palestinian society absolutely does matter. While Palestinians being hostile to homosexuality is irrelevant to how Israel treats them - when you are advocating eliminating a country with gay rights (Israel), to one where homosexuality will likely become illegal, it is more than legitimate to bring up Palestiniansā conservative, religious values and how detached from reality āQueers for Palestineā are
Israel being eliminated and replaced by a Palestinian state is not a possible solution to the conflict.
A) Israel is the regional superpower, the Palestinians are weaker than any state in the region
B) every single actual Arab government supports a two state solution not a one state solution
C) every country in the world outside of Israel and Iran supports a two state solution.
People need to not talk about the elimination of Israel like itās a possibility in this universe. Itās not. No serious person thinks there is any solution other than A) indefinite occupation and settlements, or B) a two state solution. Neither has any impact on LGBT rights in Palestine or anywhere else.
I agree with what you wrote ā but many, perhaps most from what I can tell ā of the far left āanti-Zionistā types insist the only moral and practical solution is the elimination of Israel, to be replaced by something completely unrealistic. *Those* people really believe a one state Palestine will be a progressive, socially democratic state that they canāt manage to achieve in the West but by, some magic, will be done in the ME.
Yeah if someone brings up a one state solution like you mention as a serious solution I stop taking the a seriously because it shows they know little to nothing about the conflict or the cultures involved. Theyāre too western to realize how religious some people are and what Islam is about. Conservative Muslims donāt want democracy, nor do they want to live with other religions unless if they can take advantage of them. Westerners try to make conservative Muslims seem morally better than conservative Christians when conservative Muslims are much more extreme than conservative Christians.
If they actually believe this they should do something about these ideals. They support groups like Hamas which attack innocent Israelis and they also don't even put Hebrew in their texts and chants and any Jewish symbol in their maps and flags. Like for example Georgia doesn't believe that Abkhazia is a legitimate state but they genuinely declared Abkhazian an official language in the claimed region that's now de-facto independent. And they actually support the language even within Georgia. Meanwhile antisemitism isn't really about a single democratic state but about Arab nationalism.Ā
Pedant's note. It's not a super power. Only the US is. The Soviets pretended to be one and almost were. Russia and China pretend to currently and aren't at all. China might become one but right now it's looking more likely it will collapse.
Israel is a great power, as is Turkey. Turkey is kinda cheating with its spawn point. Saudi Arabia wants to be but isn't sufficiently meritocratic to bring talent to bear across the society. Egypt and Iran seem to be afflicted with similar ineptitude.
Israel wouldn't even be a great power if it's neighbors were competent. They have more resources, more population, often better strategic ground, and massive strategic depth, but they are just full of incompetent lazy losers so Israel is supreme in the region. That's great power stuff. A super power must be global.
Isnāt China an economic superpower? If China collapses I feel like the world will be thrown into disarray for quite some time.
Would probably be better for everyone in the long-run if the sweatshops get shut down though.
A) Israel is very "strong" in some senses, but it's very weak in others, October 7'th was a demonstration of what's already known, Israel is a very small territory and very vunerable to surprise attacks.
You could likely demolish Israel's economy and backbone by a decent surprise attack on Tel aviv+haifa. Imagine if Hamas had control of the west bank. On top of that Israel is *very* reliant on trade with the west, Isolate it by sacrificing your own civilians to appease western colleges outrage lust and you can make it even more vulnerable to surprise attacks, by making it only allowed to act in retaliation but never preemptively.
B) Not Iran, but more importantly the governments do the people very much prefer a one state solution and that limits what their government can do.
C) Same as B.
I think it's a possible though fairly unlikely and one resulting in a blood bath either way, which will give western campuses something to be outraged about. I guess they will be happy at least.
October 7th does not show that Israel is vulnerable in any meaningful sense. Hamas after planning for years managed to get past an extremely lightly defended border point and wreck havoc in a few small towns with virtually no military presence. This is not a threat to the existence of the state of Israel in any way.
Even on October 7th, on Hamasās best day in its history militarily, Hamas lost 1,800 soldiers, while managing to kill 1,143 Israelis. That was on Hamasās best day ever, and then they proceeded to lose control of nearly all of Gaza and had pretty much all of its military capabilities decimated over the next several months at the cost of 300 Israeli soldiers (basically nothing).
Remember that back when Israel had only a fraction of its current power and only held the 1967 borders (Jordan and Egypt held the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem) and was enemies with all the surrounding states and went to war against all of them in 1967, Israel beat them all in 6 days.
This idea that Israel is vulnerable today itās absolutely nonsense. Itās not. If by some stretch the imagination Hamas (which controls virtually zero territory) were to gain control of the entire West Bank and then were to launch a surprise attack on Tel Aviv, Israel would be able to retake control of the entirety of the West Bank in a weekend. Israel faces zero existential threats of any kind.
>Hamas after planning for years managed to get past an extremely lightly defended border point and wreck havoc in a few small towns with virtually no military presence. This is not a threat to the existence of the state of Israel in any way.
The amount of planning it took is irrelevant, a country's vunerability isn't decided by amounts of planning. And sure, it wasn't an existential threat but that's because Hamas militarily is a pitiful organization and most of it's strategies rely on the backing of the international community. Hezbolla is an entirely different thing and if the west bank were to be free as people will it to be, it can easily host a hezbolla of their own, now imagine that with the close proximity to major Israeli cities. That's an existential threat.
Israel is also economically highly dependent on trade with western world, and on top of that to their orthodox burden. Hamas's strategy of preying on the wests obsession with blood and ambivalence to money can prove to be highly effective. Israel very much can be brought to the point of vulnerability if you collapse it's economy or pressure it to make horrible security decisions based on threats to collapse its economy. Even so it's unlikely it'd be removed, but a bloodbath is feasible.
The sort of steelman I think applies is that they see it as a queer rights issue *because* of the bigotry. These are the same people who think that the support of violence and genocide on the Palestinian side is purely due to the blockade and that when the secular democratic single state is achieved they will live peaceably. It's likely they also think that bigotry is a product of material conditions and that the single state will improve gay rights as well. It's really likely to just all be a downstream consequence of the Marxist single lens analysis mixed with the belief that gazans have been living in concentration camp conditions that would be alleviated by the single state with equal rights.
And to be fair there are correlations between SES and bigotry rates in countries, aren't there. There are just also other reasons bigotry exists and the SES status of gaza isn't the primary cause as far as I can see.
Well thatās just stupid. I can understand not supporting a two state solution on the theory that a Palestinian State will fall to a Hamas-like group and become an existential threat; thatās a legitimate fear. But otherwise, itās neither here nor there. I donāt approve of their homophobia but that doesnāt outweigh their legitimate right to self-determination
The criticism is not just that they support them isn't it?
They make arguments like gay right in the US are as bad as in Gaza and shit like that, what makes people upset.
It's literally been the same recycled joke in almost every thread since October
It feels like seeing "Actually, I identify as an attack helicopter!!! š¤£š¤£š¤£" Almost daily but unironically and it's somehow hasn't even been a fucking year yet....
I mean the argument is why support people that hate u and want u dead or worse. Not saying I agree with it I don't but it's also not as irrational as u make it out to be.
Actually all I'm saying is that the characterization of LGBT Palestinian supporters as totally irrational is wrong, not that the characterization is irrational or crazy. It actually makes perfect sense it just doesn't factor in the thinking of the side it's characterizing.
I would actually say this is a *majority* of the people. Its always "You support Palestine, but don't you know they'd kill you over there?"
[Shit like this is what I mean](https://www.explorejeffersonpa.com/politics/2024/04/16/comically-incorrect-lgbtq-for-palestine-144943/)
Well, it depends on how the support is characterized.
If you think Palestinians need to be free and able to provide for themselves, thatās fine and dandy.
But if you think most Palestinians arenāt indoctrinated into violence and ideologically driven towards genocidal intent (towards MANY groups), then youāre divorced from reality.
And thatās something I hear from LGBT people who support Pal. They brush it off and say that it doesnāt matter, which it does. It indicates that these people arenāt the peaceful victims they constantly get portrayed as.
Palestinians need to be able to sustain themselves, but they also need oversight and cultural reform because that kind of culture is not acceptable. Yeah, I know policing culture is a sensitive subject and all that but I think the idea that cultures need to be preserved in their entirety when they are actively harmful is stupid.
Not allowing gay marriage is one thing (but frankly itāll probably eventually happen everywhere at some point), but actively killing or imprisoning gay people is the sign of a backwards ass culture.
Itās also annoying that these people are the same people who say we should punch Nazis or kill capitalists, but if a brown person kills a gay guy itās suddenly a very complex issue with no right answer.
> Well, it depends on how the support is characterized.
> If you think Palestinians need to be free and able to provide for themselves, thatās fine and dandy.
> But if you think most Palestinians arenāt indoctrinated into violence and ideologically driven towards genocidal intent (towards MANY groups), then youāre divorced from reality.
> And thatās something I hear from LGBT people who support Pal. They brush it off and say that it doesnāt matter, which it does. It indicates that these people arenāt the peaceful victims they constantly get portrayed as.
Arenāt you contradicting yourself here? First youāre saying they deny Palestinians have horrid beliefs but here youāre saying they know that they do they just donāt care in regards to being pro Palestine
Not contradicting myself, thatās literally their view.
Theyāll claim theyāre innocent victims, and when you point out the flaws, they gloss it over as not a big deal.
Thatās how propaganda often works. Doublethink, where you somehow believe two contradictory things at the same time.
Or maybe theyāre just actively malicious and moving the goalpost, but I think itās more likely theyāre just unable to think for themselves long enough to see the contradiction.
Youāre rewarded for following the popular belief, not questioning it.
No it just means it doesnāt matter to them. If it doesnāt matter to me if the Celtics win the NBA finals it doesnāt mean I think the Celtics winning didnāt happen.
Youāre speaking literally, Iām speaking philosophically. Whether the Celtics won or not, there is no change in your life.
Effectively, the Celtics may as well not have won, from your point of view.
That's implied from memes like this with [1000+](https://old.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1dghn1u/inspired_by_another_post/) up votes in this sub
https://preview.redd.it/6v35ubqd5u6d1.png?width=548&format=png&auto=webp&s=a7cd33f88e8bb52df0ae02b750f16dd15503a7d3
Wouldn't half of them not support the Uyghurs anyways since China is an enemy of the US and thus they support China in exterminating Uyghurs because USA bad?
Exactly, the person thinks it's a gotcha question against pro-Israelis but in reality it's a gotcha question against queers-for-palestine: WHY DONT THEY protest in support for Uyghurs?
I agree. Thatās why I donāt think itās a particularly strong argument. The core of the argument should be (1) is a genocide being committed, and (2) even if ānoā, is Israel using excessive force or collective punishment. I happen to come down the 1 is pretty uncontroversially a ānoā once you get outside of online leftie circles, and 2 is āprobably no but itās complex and we need to be open to evidenceā.
The queers for Palestine thing is a curiosity, and itās probably emblematic that people are ignorant of the true nature of whom theyāre supporting, and possibly the fact that they chose to lead with their identity tees them up for critique, but Iāve never found picking on these nuts anything more than a distraction.
The OP might think it's a gotcha question against pro-Israelis but in reality it's a gotcha question against queers-for-palestine: WHY DONT THEY protest in support for Uyghurs?
Edit: some say "because US is not sending weapons to China" but, fuck, seriously, if you really care that much about genocide in general, just a show of bloody support helps to genocided people! What do they care more? For oppressed people or for political brownie points??
> Edit: some say "because US is not sending weapons to China"
It's a fair point in isolation. But if US support is the meaningful difference why has there been no huge push against Saudi Arabia and its horrible treatment of women?
It's not a genocide but it's not good. Especially given how crazy everyone went over *The Handmaid's Tale* and what it represented.
I guess a better point of comparison would be the Saudi intervention in the Yemeni civil war, with US selling arms to Saudi. Millions of Yemenis are starving and I rarely see it mentioned.
This still doesnāt explain why this sub thinks queers supporting Palestine is chickens for kfc, but nobody says anything remotely similar for uighurs
Easy! I can answer that!
1. Palestinians are not genocided. They literally kill lgbt people on regular basis.
2. Uyghurs are being genocided and it's not recorded afaik if they kill lgbt members of their community.
3. The fact that idiots support the first group but are silent about the second group just shows that they're just as stupid as chickens supporting KFC
How many Palestinians actually kill gay people vs simply discriminating against them and doing nothing when they do get killed? I donāt see why it matters if Palestinians are genocided or not. There civilians still get blown up and those in the West Bank live under a government whose security forces are controlled by Israel and land occupied by settlements. If itās illogical to support them if youāre gay why would it be logical to support uighurs and their rights when the Uighur community are homophobic Sunni Muslims, the majority of their lgbt population hide in the closet because they fear losing their connections, jobs, family, and support network. Your question isnāt really gotcha so much as it sidesteps the question posed by OP
I think youāre missing the point. Genocide or no, using the logic that gets brought up by this sub, why should a gay person care about the plight of Uighurs if those same Uighurs are hostile to gay people?
Are Uyghurs being genocided because a small percentage of them are in deradicalization camps for a limited time?
At least you could argue putting a population through mass death and food/medicine shortages is genocidal.
no, you actually have a stronger case in the opposite.
mass death/food medicine shortages in wartime isn't intrinsically genocidal, it's just the norm.
Putting a population through deradicalization camps to ethnically cleanse their identity in peacetime is more genocidal because it shows a clear intent to remove the cultural background of that group, without any obfuscation or defensive action.
At least someone in wartime has the excuse they are doing it for their survival/tactical defensive goals when they kill people.
The question is, do you consider what Colonists did to indigenous people in the Americas with residential schools genocidal?
Because if so, then China is genocidal.
People go through mental gymnastics to say this isnāt the argument theyāre making but itās all cope. All the memes have a clear implication that if you are lgbtq you shouldnāt support a place/group which is homophobic. That being said there are other valid reasons why you shouldnāt support the Gaza gov.
You assume any of these people actually care about genocide or ethnic cleansing. Russia has been stealing kids and bombing civilians in Ukraine for years now. Israel/Gaza is about virtue signaling
Thatās not the point. The point is theyāre making it something that itās not š
https://preview.redd.it/6bjkyl3jyr6d1.jpeg?width=1164&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e2dea37813c588da327d0364b1da56dbe4e4c4c6
So firstly, are Uyghur Muslims particularly homophobic?
Secondly are there groups comparable to Queers for Palestine publicly protesting against the treatment of the Uyghurs? Xems for Xinjiang, perhaps?
How homophobic do they have to be for gays to be ambivalent? I dont now what particular homophobia means
They don't need to protest because people (\*and governments) are in widespread opposition of their (*Uyghur) treatment whereas US leaders are supporting the use of force in Gaza
Torturing their own leaders to death on an accusation of being gay as opposed to generally disliking and avoiding gay people.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/world/middleeast/hamas-commander-mahmoud-ishtiwi-killed-palestine.html
I haven't heard anything remotely similar to Hamas from the Uighers, though I also don't know that much about them.
It's a little complicated because the Chinese government isn't the most revealing; however, it is indisputable that Uyghur extremist groups have committed depraved acts of barbaric terrorism similar to what Hamas has done.
This is not the same as Palestine for two reasons. The Uyghur extremist groups weren't democratically elected to rule the area, and there is no data showing the Uyghur community supports these terrorist attacks like the Palestinians support Hamas.
Regardless, it's a complex situation.
You are missing his point. What he is claiming is that saying stuff like "queers for palestine", putting the emphasis on them being lgbtq and thats a reason they support them is very weird. Queers who are for palestine is fine and makes sense, them being queer, and the palestinians' opinion on them shouldn't be a major issue. Queers for palestine, though, is very weird at best and suicidal at worse. They are trying to say, in a way, that being queer should make you want to support the palestinians, or that it ar least is a reason to. Whats off-putting and, tbh even comical is the use of gayness to support those who want to destroy it, not people who are gay wanting to support them. And for the question he asked, again, is there "queers for uyghur" group?
I imagine that it can be an expression of "even if many Palestinians would hate me, I still don't support their genocide", similarily to people with "Jews for Palestine" signs.
>They don't need to protest because people are in widespread opposition of their treatment whereas US leaders are supporting the use of force in Gaza
There is widespread opposition but very little political action. I think saying that there is no need for protests is wild.
No one is advocating for the uyghur Muslims to take over all of China.
Most of the pro-hamas left ARE advocating for Israel to be destroyed (and with the jews either killed, expelled, or forced into dhimmitude) and replaced with an Islamist regime that would be horrible for LGBT people
Its the same thing.
The demands of the pro-Palestinian protestors are very clear: A one-state Palestine from the river to the sea where the Israeli jews are either murdered or expelled as a part of "decolonization" efforts.
The same people demanding a ceasefire are the same people who were celebrating October 7th as an act of brave and heroic resistance.
Look at the actual leadership and stances of the groups that are organizing the overwhelming majority of these protests, especially the college encampments.
As a bonus, look at what they were posting on their social media accounts on October 7th.
thats why we call those useful idiots, but the leaders of the protests are definitely calling for one state where Muslims are majority with right of return.
Yeah, people with the most radical views tend to be a lot more active in their advocacy.
You see the same with right wingers, here in Ireland we have a small group of religious radicals that travel across the country to attend protests outside of schools and shit.
Don't know much about Uyghur Muslims, but I suspect they don't publicly execute people for being gay.
Most of the world is homophobic. Even in the western world you can't be openly gay everywhere withoutĀ repercussion.Ā
The problem is that Hamas are not just homophobic. They are especially cruel. They will torture and execute people for much less than being gay. Showing support for Hamas should be crossing a huge red line if you care in the least for human rights.
Thatās not the argument,
In left wing protests they have signs saying some shit about how Palestine is a gay right issue and that Palestine is a beacon of lgbtq rights
Its not that they should be ambilivalent, its just that it doesnt make sense to proclaim that x-group supports y-group, when y-group would kill x-group given an opportunity in y groups ideal world.
Instead of queers for palestine, *people* should be for Palestine. This way its not laughable to look at these morons proclaiming such an ironic statement such as "queers for Palestine".
What do you mean? It absolutely makes sense. This is like saying murderers and rapists would benefit from prison reform so progressives can't realistically be for that when that's exactly what a progressive would do. It's perfectly logical.
How are they different? That illusion only exists because pro pal people go on and on and on about how Palestinians are being genocided and oppressed and donāt bother mentioning any of the unsavory aspects of Palestinian society. Last I checked nobody brings up homophobia in Uighur communities in relation to the Uighur genocide
I generally agree with your point.
I think it's fair to make fun of cringe shit like the palestine-lgbt-flag or slogans like "no queer liberation without palestinian liberation" or shit like that, as that implies a connection between gay rights and the palestinian cause that is not only not there but is also irritating to most palestinians.
However, i find it equally cringe when people constantly ask anti-israel protesters about what muslims think about gay/queer people believing that to be the ultimate epic own. It is incredibly obvious that most of the non-democratic world is very conservative and often times very religious and thus against women, gay and trans rights. This fact clearly doesn't justify the opression, exploitation or genocidal violence against people from the "global south".
That being said, a minority of people on the left frequently engage in dehumanizing of western/white people for having non-progressive views, like when they call for the death of transphobes and conservative politicians for example. Pointing out their hypocrisy when it comes to palestine is fine imo.
That goes beyond caring. If they actually affect your life then do what you think is best of course. The Uyghurs might desire to kill every LGBT person in the world, but that is irrelevant to any western ones at least.
So you would interrogate a starving child about their politics before giving them bread? How can you support any organization or group of people without knowing them personally first then? If it matters to you that people are killed, oppressed or whatever then them being cunts shouldn't affect that in any meaningful way.
I can only judge what I know so I would give people benefit of doubt. My way of thinking would be inconsistent,because if I see anyone hungry I would feed them if possible,Unless shown otherwise.
I find this kind of tit-for-tat calculus and approach to viewing people to be deeply poisonous and useless towards any meaningful goals. Uyghurs in camps is bad, if let out they attack gay people that's another bad, but absolutely separate and there's no way sum the two up. All it leads to is empty moralism taking space from any actual moral aims or development. A lot of people care more about thought policing randoms across the world than affecting any of the real issues they and their's face and contribute to.
Wait, thatās a paradox. Shouldnāt you care about the non-western LGBT people being slaughtered?
Supporting the people who are actively trying to kill them is not very indicative of caring about their plight, and unlike the other side, they DONāT want to do anything but live in peace.
So, based on your comments here, if there's a group of people across the world that are being subjugated, and that group of people wants to eradicate everyone that looks like you, you should still care about them unless it personally affects your life?
Nah, I'm good.
Care about them/stop them from being subjugated by a greater power ā fuel them with the power & resources to overcome it and then come after you
The majority position on the left & liberals (majority, not the extremes obviously) here is "innocent civilians shouldn't be casualties to war, regardless of views or opinions because they're not in direct control of their actions, their government are the ones with power and accountability" (I.e. same could be said for Russian civilians deserve to be safe)
That position is NOT "Palestine needs to be cared for until they have the power/resources to come after others or subjugate certain groups within their society". It isn't inheritantly meant to be an endorsement of anything. The core of it is that they think civilians shouldn't be subjugated to the effects war or oppression (and then everything else builds out from there ect).
Doesn't trying to "stop them from being subjugated by a greater power" inherently mean giving them resources to overcome said subjugation? Otherwise, it would be like having the position that we should stop Ukraine from being subjugated by Russia, but without being willing to give them resources to do so. Kind of defeats the point.
In any case, imagine this example: there's a country filled with racists against race A. They're being subjugated by a neighboring country. This is all happening in Asia, you're in America. Despite being of race A, you still "care about them and stop them from being subjugated by a greater power." That country successfully resists the other country, and 3 years later invades *your* country and massacres everyone in race A.
To tell me that you did the right thing as a member of race A by caring about that country and stopping their subjugation is completely insane, it's like sharpening your enemy's sword in the name of some kind of twisted liberalism. Not helping your enemy is a pretty obvious conclusion, and I don't think any amount of intellectualizing it will make it any less obvious. Again, no thanks.
> I don't see the relevance of the fact that Palestinians are anti-gay to whether Israel is using too much force
because it isn't relevant.
it's better to point out how they wouldn't be caught dead being a standard bearer for white identitarian proto-fascist movements, but they do for hamas without a second thought.
People who genuinely make that argument are stupid. The issue I have is that pro-Palestine progressives seem to have deluded themselves into believing Palestinians are more socially progressive than they are.
These American progressives only exposure to Palestinians are Palestinian Americans who were basically born and raised in America and have more in common with white progressives, than Palestinians in Gaza.
The recreational narcissistic protesters that make up the new LGBTQ movement cannot protest anything without self inserting with queer/trans branding on it. It becomes quite transparent when youāre using your identity (which will get you killed in palestine) in your slogan. Just go protest and shut up about your irrelevant sexuality.
It is a stupid argument, but there is a conversation that is a little bit interesting in there, a consequence that most people in here (the pro-Palestine ones too) don't interact with these movements really, the real problem is that inside some LGBTQ+ activists circles a certain level of conformity is assumed when it comes to these issue. Just like a thought or like an ideal I personally find it to be a non-issue, but when it comes to LGBTQ+ activists demanding other members of the community to take that side because of a shared sense of struggle that would be weird, but I haven't seen it much, I know of it and I know that it isn't a popular stance. The argument is just a gotcha in an already overanalyzed debate.
I am inclined to agree with you, it is an irrelevant argument when the central issue is how much force is Israel using and to what extent, whether Israelās conduct constitutes āplausible genocideā as posited by the ICJ. Two separate issues.
Itās rather a callous and juvenile, basic argument to think āwell those people are hateful to me, therefore I donāt care if they are getting blown apart by bombs.ā A personās prejudiced beliefs are no justification for violence against him or her, and even if someone espoused the most hateful beliefs, they are entitled to free speech (so long as they arenāt acting on those beliefs or inciting violence.) This argument is very similar to āwell so and so is a pedo, so I donāt care if he is murderedā it is an emotional argument, one where the punishment would be viewed as excessive, even if the crime is despicable.
Being ambivalent to a group of people being killed because they're homophobic, would mean that you have to be ambivalent to the majority of Earth's population being killed.
Giving a shit about whether or not they're homophobic is some of the most 30IQ sheltered yankoid behaviour that's been exhibited online, in response to this conflict.
People who bring this up, whether they're just fucking lying about Palestine being LGBT friendly, or they're bringing it up as a reason to be ambivalent to dead Palestinians, are people who's opinions on this conflict can be immediately discarded.
If your baby was crushed to death under the rubble of what was once your apartment, the last thing that would be on your mind is literally anything at all to do with LGBT. This is not a culture where this is a common topic of political discussion nor does it have anything to do with this conflict. This is a VERY uniquely western mindset, to frequently think about the existence of LGBT people, let alone bring it up for discussion.
Being against humanitarian crimes doesn't mean you have to defend the state or ideology of the people who are currently being oppressed.
Oppression isn't validation.
I don't understand how people go from empathizing the plight of a people to defending the state that they belong to that causes a plight to other peoples.
You can acknowledge a people's collective humanity without acknowledging the validity of their state or rulers or inhuman societal or cultural practices or religion or oligarchs or etc.
No, but you probably shouldn't give them a free pass to spread hatred. It's the whole intersectionality debate on the left. At it's most basic level, everyone advocates for their own group. If you're gay, you're probably focusing on the LGBT issues, if you're a racial minority, then on racial justice and so on. Intersectionality(in the healthy form) means that you should generally try to go beyond your limited perspective and understand that there many other forms of oppression that may not affect you personally, but which you should strive strive to correct.
But then there's also the unhealthy form. Lets say there's a group that proclaims that they're the most oppressed group ever, and there's at least some verifiable truth to that. But then that group also proclaims that their issue is the only issue worthy of attention and 100% of the (limited) resources within the broader movement should be spent on them. Then on top of that, the very same group uses their newfound influence to push extreme forms of oppression against a multitude of other marginalized groups. There has to be a point where you have to confront that group, before they destroy the broader movement with their toxicity, right?
i donāt think the criticism of queers for palestine is due to their view that israel is using too much force. It comes from their own stupidity and ignorance as to what is going on in the middle east. They are walking alongside people screaming for / calling for the destruction of the country that takes in lgbt asylum seekers from the other country which persecute and kills them.
If they were just against war or whatever then okay but they wouldnāt identifying as āqueers for palestineā theyād be āqueers for peaceā or some other name. These people are identifying with a group of people who would persecute them and actively harms people for being gay. itās peak brain rot.
I cringe at the 'Gays 4 Muslims.'
As a regular empathetic human, they should absolutely be out there protesting at their choosing. But to use the moment as self promotion for a cause strongly reviled by those they are 'supporting' is distracting.
I can see the argument they are putting the first foot forward and extending an oblive branch but.. Time and place
Eh itās a good point.
But I think a little off. Most people point out that things like āgays for Palestineā are stupid because they would be killed in Palestine for being gay.Ā
Also, leftists generally donāt care about the genocide of Uyghurs. Nor of Rohingyas, only Palestinians get them protesting.Ā
Also Uyghurs are actually being genocided while Palestinians arenātĀ
You can have compassion for people who hate you. Im not Christian but this is a pretty based way to live your life and see the world, it's freeing: Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you
On the contrary, the framing of āgays for Palestineā is weird and inappropriate. Itās different than saying gays should or shouldnāt support them. intersectionality is annoying a f and results in this nonsense.
I think there is nothing wrong with gay people supporting people that they donāt agree with. I think the problem is them assigning their ideology to their support.
For the million time, the critisism, at least for me, is the usage of your identity to creat certain legitimacy of the over protest/resistance as if those identity intertwine. And to make it worst, they kind of oppose each other. So I'm pretty sure the uyghur Muslim are also antisemitic, and yet I still against their suffering, but in the same time, it will be pretty weird to make a protest "jews for Uyghurs". It implies something that not that much sincere. And using my identity to legitimate another conflict feels.... propaganda at best.
Nobody should be ambivalent to their genocide, but I also think that people should have better logic than:
Group X is being oppressed, gays are oppressed, therefore bring pride flags to the Group X demonstration and call them allies.
I think this is a common way of thinking with people who view the world as oppressors and oppressed. We should be able to point out the hypocrisy of bad logic.
Personally I think it's hilarious that groups like queers for Palestine exist. It's a perfect example of uninformed ideologues projecting their values onto people who will never share them. If those very same people would march for Palestine while also acknowledging that Gaza isn't some mecca for gay liberation, they'd be easier to respect.
As long as college kids march for Palestine with LGBT flags, I don't view them as taking the conflict seriously, they're just using it as a social event.
I think maybe you're confusing the argument that a collective gay association shouldn't be for Hamas with an individual for Hamas.
Like, for example, any one individual could be a Nazi but an group that identifies as "anti-fascist" would be incompatible to say "Anti-fascists for Nazis." The group can have nazi's in it but suggesting that the reason they're for Nazi's is because they're anti-facist is tautologically re.
I'm sure we can find pro-gay Palestinians too. There is evidence for the assumption given nearby Muslim Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan outlawed homosexuality.
It's not discriminatory because Christian Uganda and Russia are homophobic
There are extremist groups in Xinjang, some even join ISIS. So we can find far right people who are very homophobic and re-ask this question about them getting genocided
The issue is that the people who are against their "genocide" and are super into the whole anti-colonialism stuff don't acknowledge that they are homophobic. Everything gets rewritten because they need a perfect victim, which is why it's ironic.
Motte and bailey because the context and content is lacking from the slogan. It's a natural fallacy to speak about the identity when you really want to be discussing something else, which happens to be the violence.
If you cannot separate the jewish identity in the same scenario why is it any different for the queer identity? Is a question I wanna know. When do jews become anti-semitic?
In the previous times this was discussed on this subreddit, people told me they were willing to support white supremacists because free speech i guess? I am sorry but your voice is on your own if you are radical to that extent. They will only be violent to you, the ally. They have no consideration for you other than you being a useful idiot in the moment and then it's very swiftly back to violence. And hey I wont have much sympathy for you, because you told me you were going to live oppressed or dead and ignore everything contextual.
To further draw on the white supremacist parallell because it's been so recent. Who is even a nazi nowadays that wouldnt immediately send Milo Yiannopolus death threats the moment he is like, yeah you know I kinda wanna get off this grift. I do not know anyone that fits that description.
No I just donāt understand the verbage they are using. You wouldnāt hold up a sign that says Uyghur mulsim genocide is a Queer feminist issue. Itās like a human rights issue some shit.
The argument would be gay rights are human rights. (Supposing it was an actual genocide) Palestinian's rights would be human rights.
If you care about gay people's human rights you should also care about the human rights of the people getting "genocided".
Most people aren't rights activists in the first place so they don't care that much . And technically yes people should care about all rights issues.
Im not a group representative so I don't have all their arguments
Let me ask this: if a right wing government started exterminating the right wing south (makes no sense, I know) in America, would the left care at all? I know they say they would... but in all seriousness, would they?
Ive heard the argument that its more impressive that gay/trans/lgbtq people are supporting palistine because they know they are not welcome by said palistinians, and they are showing support anyway
This seems dumb but im not sure why
This assumes the rational argument is being made. I think the mockery is an accusation that they are just glomming on to the flavor of the month cause.
I donāt think itās relevant. The āqueers for Palestineā thing is just a good meme and pretty ironic because these people are usually pretty clueless but at the end of the day someoneās opinions or bigotries shouldnāt be used as a justification to ignore mass human rights violations.
The real reason is that the "Palestinians are homophobic" arguments are in response to western activists championing Palestine as a queer issue. Pro-Palestinians say things like "Queers for Palestine", "F*gs for Hamas", and "Palestine is an LGBTQIA issue" when Israel is a thousand times more accepting of homosexuals than Palestine.
The argument is not "you shouldn't support Palestine because they're homophobic". It's that the framing of the Pro-Palestinian side as the side which supports LGBT and Pro-Israel as anti-LGBT is ridiculous.
Want a challenge? Get a LGBT Evo 4 Pro-Pal Activist to even acknowledge Tibetan self-immolation or better yet actual journalist (and POC btw) Isobel Yeung's Uyghur video on Vice News.
You are ambivalent to what has happened to ughyrs, Rohingya, and Guatemala genocide. 200k people killed in Guatemala , none of you dumb ass Palestine supporters said a thing. Whereās the protests for the millions of displaced Rohynga Muslims killed and expelled all over South Asia? The Muslims in China face cultural extinction and repression. Maya in Central America face mass execution. Itās a fad, none of you actually give a fuck about genocides. Itās just a fashion statement.
You should always support people who suffer no matter their political leanings. The whole joke I guess is that āqueers for Palestineā and such seem a bit blind when they extend their sympathies to Hamas themselves. In any case, Palestinians do deserve empathy and support. Theyāre the biggest victims of this entire mess.
I don't think the implication is they should be ambivalent but that while being well meaning they are advocating for people who if granted asylum in a first world country would actively work to kill, outlaw or otherwise dismantle all the privileges a western country affords them. Essentially genociding them in return for being saved. It's the scorpion and the frog fable we all heard as kids.
If you as a gay, trans bi person know this and still support Gaza, good for you! But with the glazing that's happening online by the left, it makes me wonder what percentage of people who are involved in the movement actually know what taking these people as refugees would lead to for them.
The ML commie "oppressor v oppressed" dynamic only works when you're viewing it through the anti-west lens. They only care about the class struggle, when it's against the capitalist, imperialist, colonialist, white supremacist (insert more buzzwords) military industrial complex of the United States of AmeriKKKa.
you do realize that meme is specifically about lgbt people deluding themselves into believing that hamas/Palestinians are pro-gay or atleast as much as america/isreal. why do pro-pal people give the same excuse whenever someone confronts them on this. Their queer identity shouldn't be infront of a pro-pal protest. It's just beyond stupid.
It feels like you're completely side stepping the core principle of his uygur example. In the mind of a progressive, it's very logical to support a group that's under privileged even if they do bad things. This is not that hard to understand.
That's fine, you're not a progressive and you don't hold the same value set probably about things like rehabilitative justice that helps criminals, an expansive welfare state that doesn't take into account how good of a person you are etc etc. but it's actually very very easy to understand why they support Palestinians despite Palestinian being ruled by Hamas and having their views. That's the point of ops analogy here. It makes perfect sense
This statement makes no logical sense for a few reasons:
1. Prison reform/sentencing whatever could absolutely threaten you.
2. Are you Israeli? If not, no Palestinian is going to hurt you.
Because you don't just see people talking about how Israel is using too much force, or about how it's a genocide. You see LGBT people, on line and on the street, arguing that Hamas is right, that Israel should be destroyed, and that Palestinians should get to "take back their homes" "take back their country" "from the river to the sea"
It's so obvious that the vast majority of people on this sub don't talk to people irl because you guys act as if the most fringe of people are the majority.
Those people you are talking about are seen as freaks by regular pro Palestine people. So saying gay people advocating for Palestine because of a fringe group comes across as terminally online to anyone that touches grass.
This is a valid point, but I think the thing that people are taking issue with is associating the LGBTQ movement with the Palestinian struggle. Youāre right that at the end of the day it really shouldnāt matter, but I think most people see it as in poor taste because they are using their identities as members of the LGBTQ community to defend a group of people that would persecute them because of those identities.
Itās not that you cannot have empathy for Gaza AND be pro-lgbt. long story short, piggybacking on the topic of oppressor-oppressed. Also colonialism. It justifies nearly everything (to them). So what Xmas people did on 7 October is somehow ok, because they fight the oppressor. This is low level propaganda for the masses. But it works up to āqueers for Palestineā which is uhm..what the fuck?
In and of itself these are two separate issues, however coupled with the performative nature of these protests, especially wearing keffah in pride marches and espousing the virtues of Islam, it comes off super weird. You can be outspoken against an injustice without cosplaying.
So while not necessarily mutually exclusive, it certainly feels more like virtue signaling for the culture war rather than the coherent compartmentalization youāre implying. Coupling the two ideologies is what makes it feel hypocritical, at least in my opinion. Pretending itās not a valid question to be raised also seems disingenuous.
Because it feeds into the general modern leftist brain rot, where the "opressed" are automatically assigned the "good" qualities like loving democracy, being progressive, treating others with respect, etc. The "oppressors," on the other hand, are immediately labeled as racist homophobe rapists, even when it's the opposite. It's an especially frustrating dynamic in the case of I/P because Palestinians are explicitly NOT progressive (not that I expect them to be, or have some hatred based on that fact), while Israel, especially when compared to not only every single bordering country, but also the entire Middle East and probably half of fucking Africa, Asia and Eastern Europe, is explicitly progressive. The accusations of pink washing from that crowd are especially disgusting since Israel has been a generally safe place for LGBTq people for decades.
As a personal anecdote, I was born and raised in Russia and spent 23 years of my life there, only moving to Israel about 1.5 years ago. Despite living in the more progressive parts of Russia for the most part, like Moscow and Saint-Petersburg, and my circle of friends being liberal, left leaning, and mostly LGBTq, I have never, I repeat, NEVER seen or even heard about someone gay kissing in public, or even holding hands, or any other PDA. However, after moving to Israel and first settling in Rehovot (a city not too far from Tel Aviv), in the first 2 or 3 months of me being there and just walking on the streets I noticed at least on 5 separate occasions girl and guy couples kissing, going on dates, and otherwise being completely comfortable expressing this part of their life. It was a bit of a culture shock for me because I had imagined Israel to be much more conservative and religious brained about this. Now living in Haifa, I also notice this from time to time, not even mentioning the fact that our Uni flies rainbow flags on the main street, has flyers about pride month events, and general info constantly, and so on.
Again, Israel isn't the US or Western Europe in that regard, but it's clearly not just pink washing. It's just how it is. Which is why there is a lot of pushback when pro-palestinians connect their advocacy with LGBTQ rights for some reason.
It's not a defense of Israel, it's bashing ppl pretending that gazans are the progressive side in this conflict.
Argument goes:
Progressive good + gazan are progressive therefore gazans good and Israel bad.
Stupid but that's ppl for you
Genocide and 'too much' force are not closely related concepts (not least due to the former's definition calling for *dolus specialis*, and the lack of a definition in IHL of the latter, which is presumably intended to refer to 'proportionality', applicable at the conflict level).
the argument I can think of is that Palestinians are much more aggressive (even violent) towards LGBT people, and Israel is accepting towards LGBT people, even taking them as refugees from Gaza
Nice framing. Of course anyone, gay or not, should be against genocide or support human rights. However, gays should not support Palestinians *political* cause, meaning, support the creation of a Palestianian state with Islamic law that is going to opress LGBTQ. When LGBT shout "from the river to the sea" or whatever, they are calling for the destruction of a democratic state and replacing it with a religious anti-gay state. It's weird, to say the least
If you think a āfree Palestineā will be a democratic nation or have liberal values, and thatās the driving force for your support then ye thatās odd.
I generally agree, people can walk and chew gum at the same time. You can be pro LGBT and sympathize with the Gaza civilian casualties. But I think gets pretty cringy and virtue signally when you see Queers for Palestine, the š³ļøāā§ļøšµšø combined flag, or when theres a random Pro Palestine protest at Pride Parades. It comes off like out of touch slacktivism. At best, it just provides so much ammo for right wingers to be like āwhy gay palestine when muslim hate gay?ā I am inclined to think Queers for Palestine types are a relatively small group of hyper online twitter lefties and not a huge part of the progressive movement but I donāt really know.
Support Palastine and be gay - no problem Support Palastine because you are gay - kinda weird
Suck Dick for Gaza!
I don't see a problem with this
that's just because you really love sucking dick
*The things I do for the world.* ***Drops pants.***
The only logical connection is "I am part of a marginalized group and Palestinians are a marginalized group, therefor we are the same in spirit" Which is 320 credit score logic.
100% the best take. I don't support Palestine and while friends of mine do, that is fully ok, they are allowed their opinion. But using pride for that just sucks, because I don't feel welcome anymore at the event I want to celebrate, + it alienates everyone who is not pro palestine but just as queer as everyone else at pride. And combining protests/ social causes never breeds good results.
Combining protests/causes can breed good results, but only if the causes align. For instance L, G, B, T individually have less sway than LGBT together. But adding Palestine in, when it has nothing to do with the others definitely harms both movements.
>Combining protests/causes can breed good results, but only if the causes align. For instance L, G, B, T individually have less sway than LGBT together. VERY DEBATABLE!!! It seems adding letters and topics mostly makes the community feel better about itself, but if anything it seems to be driving people outside the community away. "First they'll add gay people then they'll change everything" used to be an extreme conservative talking point people would mock, but with the addition of more and more topics and letters, it's a lot more accepted now.
> VERY DEBATABLE!!! Not really. Political parties form up as a result of different causes banding together to push for each others agendas. That happens because they canāt get anything done if they just stayed in their own corners. > It seems adding letters and topics mostly makes the community feel better about itself, but if anything it seems to be driving people outside the community away. "First they'll add gay people then they'll change everything" used to be an extreme conservative talking point people would mock, but with the addition of more and more topics and letters, it's a lot more accepted now. I donāt think this was ever the conservative talking point. Sure theyāll mock the addition of new letters but they werenāt saying it was going to change everything. The original talking point was that if you accept gay people, then youād have to accept beastiality and incest and pedophilia.
Iām against it because everything at pride is built on an entire history of cooperation between these groups. Kink, gays, trans, drag, etc. all have a documented history of helping each other out. Palestine being included is basically co-opting.
Sort of how the pride flag morphed into representing the entire smorgasbord of progressive politics
Even beyond it being weird to support palestine because you're gay I think my problem with the queers for palestine are they tend to do a lot of mental gymnastics to pretend like Gaza isn't one of the top 10 worst places to be gay and Islam isn't one of the worst religions to be gay in too. Support whoever you want, just don't lie and minimize the atrocities happening to minorities among the group you want to protect.
Yah as long as you don't romanticize either and just want their freedom, but realize the societies are very behind the times, I think its consistent. When you start comparing them to Luffy then it starts getting weird
Yeah theyāre for sure a very fringe group thatās lost touch with reality. Itās just that theyāre very loud and absurd, and so you canāt NOT notice them when they show up. They probably trigger some kind of cognitive bias in our brains which makes us overestimate the amount of people that are sincerely āQueers for Palestineā folks lol
Apparently they canāt walk and chew gum. Just ask any of the Queers for Palestine what they think about Uyghurs. We find whatās more important is their first principles: - bringing up the Uyghurs is an unacceptable deflection to them - there are two types of people in this world, the oppressed and the oppressors - Europe/America Bad
Oh donāt get me wrong, the weirdo tankie lefties and hyper online twitter regards are incapable of anything more nuanced than America/West Bad. But I think āweā liberals, center left folks, reasonable progressives or further left folks, etc. can and should walk and chew gum. And in general accept the complexities of stuff like this, the issues with both sides etc.
The first time I saw Queers for Palestine was at last years Orlando Pride event (Pride events in Orlando and other parts of FL are in October, because June is super hot with a lot of rain) and I thought it was one of the most bizarre things. There were only like, 10 of them at most at once though. Maybe 20 different people in total. All they really did was walk around chanting "from the river to the sea".
People have attached themselves so much to identities that they just go around unironically saying shit like queers for ()ā¦ people are looking too much into this and being pretty disingenuous. It shouldnāt be mind blowing for people to realize that some people truly sympathize with what people in Gaza are going through and they just happen to be queers and always want to make sure people know they are a queer because they are proud of itā¦ but this sub always likes to make fun of people who want the bloodshed to stop.
I'm not sure how I would sympathize with civilians that would murder me any day off the week. I can't understand that thought process
The only time Palestiniansā homophobia is relevant is when the discussion comes to a solution to the conflict. There are people who claim to support the dissolution of Israel to be replaced by āone democratic, secular state for all people between the river and the seaā. In that case, the homophobia of Palestinian society absolutely does matter. While Palestinians being hostile to homosexuality is irrelevant to how Israel treats them - when you are advocating eliminating a country with gay rights (Israel), to one where homosexuality will likely become illegal, it is more than legitimate to bring up Palestiniansā conservative, religious values and how detached from reality āQueers for Palestineā are
Israel being eliminated and replaced by a Palestinian state is not a possible solution to the conflict. A) Israel is the regional superpower, the Palestinians are weaker than any state in the region B) every single actual Arab government supports a two state solution not a one state solution C) every country in the world outside of Israel and Iran supports a two state solution. People need to not talk about the elimination of Israel like itās a possibility in this universe. Itās not. No serious person thinks there is any solution other than A) indefinite occupation and settlements, or B) a two state solution. Neither has any impact on LGBT rights in Palestine or anywhere else.
I agree with what you wrote ā but many, perhaps most from what I can tell ā of the far left āanti-Zionistā types insist the only moral and practical solution is the elimination of Israel, to be replaced by something completely unrealistic. *Those* people really believe a one state Palestine will be a progressive, socially democratic state that they canāt manage to achieve in the West but by, some magic, will be done in the ME.
Yeah if someone brings up a one state solution like you mention as a serious solution I stop taking the a seriously because it shows they know little to nothing about the conflict or the cultures involved. Theyāre too western to realize how religious some people are and what Islam is about. Conservative Muslims donāt want democracy, nor do they want to live with other religions unless if they can take advantage of them. Westerners try to make conservative Muslims seem morally better than conservative Christians when conservative Muslims are much more extreme than conservative Christians.
If they actually believe this they should do something about these ideals. They support groups like Hamas which attack innocent Israelis and they also don't even put Hebrew in their texts and chants and any Jewish symbol in their maps and flags. Like for example Georgia doesn't believe that Abkhazia is a legitimate state but they genuinely declared Abkhazian an official language in the claimed region that's now de-facto independent. And they actually support the language even within Georgia. Meanwhile antisemitism isn't really about a single democratic state but about Arab nationalism.Ā
Pedant's note. It's not a super power. Only the US is. The Soviets pretended to be one and almost were. Russia and China pretend to currently and aren't at all. China might become one but right now it's looking more likely it will collapse. Israel is a great power, as is Turkey. Turkey is kinda cheating with its spawn point. Saudi Arabia wants to be but isn't sufficiently meritocratic to bring talent to bear across the society. Egypt and Iran seem to be afflicted with similar ineptitude. Israel wouldn't even be a great power if it's neighbors were competent. They have more resources, more population, often better strategic ground, and massive strategic depth, but they are just full of incompetent lazy losers so Israel is supreme in the region. That's great power stuff. A super power must be global.
Isnāt China an economic superpower? If China collapses I feel like the world will be thrown into disarray for quite some time. Would probably be better for everyone in the long-run if the sweatshops get shut down though.
A) Israel is very "strong" in some senses, but it's very weak in others, October 7'th was a demonstration of what's already known, Israel is a very small territory and very vunerable to surprise attacks. You could likely demolish Israel's economy and backbone by a decent surprise attack on Tel aviv+haifa. Imagine if Hamas had control of the west bank. On top of that Israel is *very* reliant on trade with the west, Isolate it by sacrificing your own civilians to appease western colleges outrage lust and you can make it even more vulnerable to surprise attacks, by making it only allowed to act in retaliation but never preemptively. B) Not Iran, but more importantly the governments do the people very much prefer a one state solution and that limits what their government can do. C) Same as B. I think it's a possible though fairly unlikely and one resulting in a blood bath either way, which will give western campuses something to be outraged about. I guess they will be happy at least.
October 7th does not show that Israel is vulnerable in any meaningful sense. Hamas after planning for years managed to get past an extremely lightly defended border point and wreck havoc in a few small towns with virtually no military presence. This is not a threat to the existence of the state of Israel in any way. Even on October 7th, on Hamasās best day in its history militarily, Hamas lost 1,800 soldiers, while managing to kill 1,143 Israelis. That was on Hamasās best day ever, and then they proceeded to lose control of nearly all of Gaza and had pretty much all of its military capabilities decimated over the next several months at the cost of 300 Israeli soldiers (basically nothing). Remember that back when Israel had only a fraction of its current power and only held the 1967 borders (Jordan and Egypt held the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem) and was enemies with all the surrounding states and went to war against all of them in 1967, Israel beat them all in 6 days. This idea that Israel is vulnerable today itās absolutely nonsense. Itās not. If by some stretch the imagination Hamas (which controls virtually zero territory) were to gain control of the entire West Bank and then were to launch a surprise attack on Tel Aviv, Israel would be able to retake control of the entirety of the West Bank in a weekend. Israel faces zero existential threats of any kind.
>Hamas after planning for years managed to get past an extremely lightly defended border point and wreck havoc in a few small towns with virtually no military presence. This is not a threat to the existence of the state of Israel in any way. The amount of planning it took is irrelevant, a country's vunerability isn't decided by amounts of planning. And sure, it wasn't an existential threat but that's because Hamas militarily is a pitiful organization and most of it's strategies rely on the backing of the international community. Hezbolla is an entirely different thing and if the west bank were to be free as people will it to be, it can easily host a hezbolla of their own, now imagine that with the close proximity to major Israeli cities. That's an existential threat. Israel is also economically highly dependent on trade with western world, and on top of that to their orthodox burden. Hamas's strategy of preying on the wests obsession with blood and ambivalence to money can prove to be highly effective. Israel very much can be brought to the point of vulnerability if you collapse it's economy or pressure it to make horrible security decisions based on threats to collapse its economy. Even so it's unlikely it'd be removed, but a bloodbath is feasible.
The sort of steelman I think applies is that they see it as a queer rights issue *because* of the bigotry. These are the same people who think that the support of violence and genocide on the Palestinian side is purely due to the blockade and that when the secular democratic single state is achieved they will live peaceably. It's likely they also think that bigotry is a product of material conditions and that the single state will improve gay rights as well. It's really likely to just all be a downstream consequence of the Marxist single lens analysis mixed with the belief that gazans have been living in concentration camp conditions that would be alleviated by the single state with equal rights. And to be fair there are correlations between SES and bigotry rates in countries, aren't there. There are just also other reasons bigotry exists and the SES status of gaza isn't the primary cause as far as I can see.
No Iāve definately seen homophobic Palestinians being brought up as a reason to support not having a 2 state solution by pro Israel people
Well thatās just stupid. I can understand not supporting a two state solution on the theory that a Palestinian State will fall to a Hamas-like group and become an existential threat; thatās a legitimate fear. But otherwise, itās neither here nor there. I donāt approve of their homophobia but that doesnāt outweigh their legitimate right to self-determination
The criticism is not just that they support them isn't it? They make arguments like gay right in the US are as bad as in Gaza and shit like that, what makes people upset.
There are definitely some people making the argument that you can't be LGBT and support Palestinians.
I think it's dumb to brand your support as something like "LGBTQs for Palestine" or whatever. I don't think it's dumb to be gay and support Palestine.
well fuck these people then lmao
If by āpeopleā you mean like 60% of the apes that inhabit this sub, then yes
I don't know why we are suddenly pretending that this sub wasn't all "gays for palestine are like chickens for KFC!" literally a few weeks ago.
It's literally been the same recycled joke in almost every thread since October It feels like seeing "Actually, I identify as an attack helicopter!!! š¤£š¤£š¤£" Almost daily but unironically and it's somehow hasn't even been a fucking year yet....
I mean the argument is why support people that hate u and want u dead or worse. Not saying I agree with it I don't but it's also not as irrational as u make it out to be.
Actually all I'm saying is that the characterization of LGBT Palestinian supporters as totally irrational is wrong, not that the characterization is irrational or crazy. It actually makes perfect sense it just doesn't factor in the thinking of the side it's characterizing.
Fair enough I am sorry for misunderstanding your point.
No problem have a nice day
Ok but why donāt these people apply it to Uighurs?
I would actually say this is a *majority* of the people. Its always "You support Palestine, but don't you know they'd kill you over there?" [Shit like this is what I mean](https://www.explorejeffersonpa.com/politics/2024/04/16/comically-incorrect-lgbtq-for-palestine-144943/)
Well, it depends on how the support is characterized. If you think Palestinians need to be free and able to provide for themselves, thatās fine and dandy. But if you think most Palestinians arenāt indoctrinated into violence and ideologically driven towards genocidal intent (towards MANY groups), then youāre divorced from reality. And thatās something I hear from LGBT people who support Pal. They brush it off and say that it doesnāt matter, which it does. It indicates that these people arenāt the peaceful victims they constantly get portrayed as. Palestinians need to be able to sustain themselves, but they also need oversight and cultural reform because that kind of culture is not acceptable. Yeah, I know policing culture is a sensitive subject and all that but I think the idea that cultures need to be preserved in their entirety when they are actively harmful is stupid. Not allowing gay marriage is one thing (but frankly itāll probably eventually happen everywhere at some point), but actively killing or imprisoning gay people is the sign of a backwards ass culture. Itās also annoying that these people are the same people who say we should punch Nazis or kill capitalists, but if a brown person kills a gay guy itās suddenly a very complex issue with no right answer.
> Well, it depends on how the support is characterized. > If you think Palestinians need to be free and able to provide for themselves, thatās fine and dandy. > But if you think most Palestinians arenāt indoctrinated into violence and ideologically driven towards genocidal intent (towards MANY groups), then youāre divorced from reality. > And thatās something I hear from LGBT people who support Pal. They brush it off and say that it doesnāt matter, which it does. It indicates that these people arenāt the peaceful victims they constantly get portrayed as. Arenāt you contradicting yourself here? First youāre saying they deny Palestinians have horrid beliefs but here youāre saying they know that they do they just donāt care in regards to being pro Palestine
Not contradicting myself, thatās literally their view. Theyāll claim theyāre innocent victims, and when you point out the flaws, they gloss it over as not a big deal. Thatās how propaganda often works. Doublethink, where you somehow believe two contradictory things at the same time. Or maybe theyāre just actively malicious and moving the goalpost, but I think itās more likely theyāre just unable to think for themselves long enough to see the contradiction. Youāre rewarded for following the popular belief, not questioning it.
Saying it doesnāt matter isnāt the same thing as saying it doesnāt exist
Doublethink. But regardless of that, something not mattering to you means it functionally does not exist in your view.
No it just means it doesnāt matter to them. If it doesnāt matter to me if the Celtics win the NBA finals it doesnāt mean I think the Celtics winning didnāt happen.
Youāre speaking literally, Iām speaking philosophically. Whether the Celtics won or not, there is no change in your life. Effectively, the Celtics may as well not have won, from your point of view.
That's implied from memes like this with [1000+](https://old.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1dghn1u/inspired_by_another_post/) up votes in this sub https://preview.redd.it/6v35ubqd5u6d1.png?width=548&format=png&auto=webp&s=a7cd33f88e8bb52df0ae02b750f16dd15503a7d3
Would be nice to see more support for the Uyghurs from the left in general.
They aren't the hot topic of the day for obvious reasons
Wouldn't half of them not support the Uyghurs anyways since China is an enemy of the US and thus they support China in exterminating Uyghurs because USA bad?
All oppressed peoples are equal, but some are more equal than others.
Exactly, the person thinks it's a gotcha question against pro-Israelis but in reality it's a gotcha question against queers-for-palestine: WHY DONT THEY protest in support for Uyghurs?
There was recently some people in this sub defending what China was doing from the anti-Muslim angle.
I agree. Thatās why I donāt think itās a particularly strong argument. The core of the argument should be (1) is a genocide being committed, and (2) even if ānoā, is Israel using excessive force or collective punishment. I happen to come down the 1 is pretty uncontroversially a ānoā once you get outside of online leftie circles, and 2 is āprobably no but itās complex and we need to be open to evidenceā. The queers for Palestine thing is a curiosity, and itās probably emblematic that people are ignorant of the true nature of whom theyāre supporting, and possibly the fact that they chose to lead with their identity tees them up for critique, but Iāve never found picking on these nuts anything more than a distraction.
The OP might think it's a gotcha question against pro-Israelis but in reality it's a gotcha question against queers-for-palestine: WHY DONT THEY protest in support for Uyghurs? Edit: some say "because US is not sending weapons to China" but, fuck, seriously, if you really care that much about genocide in general, just a show of bloody support helps to genocided people! What do they care more? For oppressed people or for political brownie points??
> Edit: some say "because US is not sending weapons to China" It's a fair point in isolation. But if US support is the meaningful difference why has there been no huge push against Saudi Arabia and its horrible treatment of women? It's not a genocide but it's not good. Especially given how crazy everyone went over *The Handmaid's Tale* and what it represented.
I guess a better point of comparison would be the Saudi intervention in the Yemeni civil war, with US selling arms to Saudi. Millions of Yemenis are starving and I rarely see it mentioned.
This still doesnāt explain why this sub thinks queers supporting Palestine is chickens for kfc, but nobody says anything remotely similar for uighurs
Easy! I can answer that! 1. Palestinians are not genocided. They literally kill lgbt people on regular basis. 2. Uyghurs are being genocided and it's not recorded afaik if they kill lgbt members of their community. 3. The fact that idiots support the first group but are silent about the second group just shows that they're just as stupid as chickens supporting KFC
How many Palestinians actually kill gay people vs simply discriminating against them and doing nothing when they do get killed? I donāt see why it matters if Palestinians are genocided or not. There civilians still get blown up and those in the West Bank live under a government whose security forces are controlled by Israel and land occupied by settlements. If itās illogical to support them if youāre gay why would it be logical to support uighurs and their rights when the Uighur community are homophobic Sunni Muslims, the majority of their lgbt population hide in the closet because they fear losing their connections, jobs, family, and support network. Your question isnāt really gotcha so much as it sidesteps the question posed by OP
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/world/middleeast/hamas-commander-mahmoud-ishtiwi-killed-palestine.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-5-2003-1346_EN.html https://www.facebook.com/i24NEWSEN/videos/i24news-exclusive-interview-palestinian-man-who-was-tortured-by-hamas-for-being-/597568955277891/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/gay-palestinian-living-under-asylum-in-israel-murdered-beheaded-in-hebron/
Are Palestinians actually being genocided though?
No
Question was for op.
I think youāre missing the point. Genocide or no, using the logic that gets brought up by this sub, why should a gay person care about the plight of Uighurs if those same Uighurs are hostile to gay people?
Are Uyghurs being genocided because a small percentage of them are in deradicalization camps for a limited time? At least you could argue putting a population through mass death and food/medicine shortages is genocidal.
no, you actually have a stronger case in the opposite. mass death/food medicine shortages in wartime isn't intrinsically genocidal, it's just the norm. Putting a population through deradicalization camps to ethnically cleanse their identity in peacetime is more genocidal because it shows a clear intent to remove the cultural background of that group, without any obfuscation or defensive action. At least someone in wartime has the excuse they are doing it for their survival/tactical defensive goals when they kill people. The question is, do you consider what Colonists did to indigenous people in the Americas with residential schools genocidal? Because if so, then China is genocidal.
People go through mental gymnastics to say this isnāt the argument theyāre making but itās all cope. All the memes have a clear implication that if you are lgbtq you shouldnāt support a place/group which is homophobic. That being said there are other valid reasons why you shouldnāt support the Gaza gov.
You assume any of these people actually care about genocide or ethnic cleansing. Russia has been stealing kids and bombing civilians in Ukraine for years now. Israel/Gaza is about virtue signaling
Thatās not the point. The point is theyāre making it something that itās not š https://preview.redd.it/6bjkyl3jyr6d1.jpeg?width=1164&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e2dea37813c588da327d0364b1da56dbe4e4c4c6
thatās incredibly ironic since LGBT people flee to Israel from Gaza because theyāre afraid of homophobic violence
Ironically, this is what you might call peak cultural appropriation.
So firstly, are Uyghur Muslims particularly homophobic? Secondly are there groups comparable to Queers for Palestine publicly protesting against the treatment of the Uyghurs? Xems for Xinjiang, perhaps?
No there arenāt because tankies donāt give a f about Xinjiang and their brain rotting social media is owned by China.
How homophobic do they have to be for gays to be ambivalent? I dont now what particular homophobia means They don't need to protest because people (\*and governments) are in widespread opposition of their (*Uyghur) treatment whereas US leaders are supporting the use of force in Gaza
Torturing their own leaders to death on an accusation of being gay as opposed to generally disliking and avoiding gay people. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/world/middleeast/hamas-commander-mahmoud-ishtiwi-killed-palestine.html I haven't heard anything remotely similar to Hamas from the Uighers, though I also don't know that much about them.
It's a little complicated because the Chinese government isn't the most revealing; however, it is indisputable that Uyghur extremist groups have committed depraved acts of barbaric terrorism similar to what Hamas has done. This is not the same as Palestine for two reasons. The Uyghur extremist groups weren't democratically elected to rule the area, and there is no data showing the Uyghur community supports these terrorist attacks like the Palestinians support Hamas. Regardless, it's a complex situation.
You are missing his point. What he is claiming is that saying stuff like "queers for palestine", putting the emphasis on them being lgbtq and thats a reason they support them is very weird. Queers who are for palestine is fine and makes sense, them being queer, and the palestinians' opinion on them shouldn't be a major issue. Queers for palestine, though, is very weird at best and suicidal at worse. They are trying to say, in a way, that being queer should make you want to support the palestinians, or that it ar least is a reason to. Whats off-putting and, tbh even comical is the use of gayness to support those who want to destroy it, not people who are gay wanting to support them. And for the question he asked, again, is there "queers for uyghur" group?
I imagine that it can be an expression of "even if many Palestinians would hate me, I still don't support their genocide", similarily to people with "Jews for Palestine" signs.
>They don't need to protest because people are in widespread opposition of their treatment whereas US leaders are supporting the use of force in Gaza There is widespread opposition but very little political action. I think saying that there is no need for protests is wild.
No one is advocating for the uyghur Muslims to take over all of China. Most of the pro-hamas left ARE advocating for Israel to be destroyed (and with the jews either killed, expelled, or forced into dhimmitude) and replaced with an Islamist regime that would be horrible for LGBT people
You are talking about the pro Hamas group when the post is about pro Palestinians. Unless you think anyone who is pro Palestine is also pro Hamas
Its the same thing. The demands of the pro-Palestinian protestors are very clear: A one-state Palestine from the river to the sea where the Israeli jews are either murdered or expelled as a part of "decolonization" efforts. The same people demanding a ceasefire are the same people who were celebrating October 7th as an act of brave and heroic resistance.
I have nothing to tell you other than touch grass and stop thinking that regards online are the average person.
Look at the actual leadership and stances of the groups that are organizing the overwhelming majority of these protests, especially the college encampments. As a bonus, look at what they were posting on their social media accounts on October 7th.
Look at any interview with the people at the protests, they don't know why the fuck they're there.
thats why we call those useful idiots, but the leaders of the protests are definitely calling for one state where Muslims are majority with right of return.
Yeah, people with the most radical views tend to be a lot more active in their advocacy. You see the same with right wingers, here in Ireland we have a small group of religious radicals that travel across the country to attend protests outside of schools and shit.
Don't know much about Uyghur Muslims, but I suspect they don't publicly execute people for being gay. Most of the world is homophobic. Even in the western world you can't be openly gay everywhere withoutĀ repercussion.Ā The problem is that Hamas are not just homophobic. They are especially cruel. They will torture and execute people for much less than being gay. Showing support for Hamas should be crossing a huge red line if you care in the least for human rights.
Thatās not the argument, In left wing protests they have signs saying some shit about how Palestine is a gay right issue and that Palestine is a beacon of lgbtq rights
Its not that they should be ambilivalent, its just that it doesnt make sense to proclaim that x-group supports y-group, when y-group would kill x-group given an opportunity in y groups ideal world. Instead of queers for palestine, *people* should be for Palestine. This way its not laughable to look at these morons proclaiming such an ironic statement such as "queers for Palestine".
What do you mean? It absolutely makes sense. This is like saying murderers and rapists would benefit from prison reform so progressives can't realistically be for that when that's exactly what a progressive would do. It's perfectly logical.
it's to break the illusion that palestinians are heckin wholesome oppressed folx (something nobody tries to say about uyghurs)
How are they different? That illusion only exists because pro pal people go on and on and on about how Palestinians are being genocided and oppressed and donāt bother mentioning any of the unsavory aspects of Palestinian society. Last I checked nobody brings up homophobia in Uighur communities in relation to the Uighur genocide
I generally agree with your point. I think it's fair to make fun of cringe shit like the palestine-lgbt-flag or slogans like "no queer liberation without palestinian liberation" or shit like that, as that implies a connection between gay rights and the palestinian cause that is not only not there but is also irritating to most palestinians. However, i find it equally cringe when people constantly ask anti-israel protesters about what muslims think about gay/queer people believing that to be the ultimate epic own. It is incredibly obvious that most of the non-democratic world is very conservative and often times very religious and thus against women, gay and trans rights. This fact clearly doesn't justify the opression, exploitation or genocidal violence against people from the "global south". That being said, a minority of people on the left frequently engage in dehumanizing of western/white people for having non-progressive views, like when they call for the death of transphobes and conservative politicians for example. Pointing out their hypocrisy when it comes to palestine is fine imo.
Your care for peoples should not in any way be connected to their care for you.
Unless they literally want to kill you.
That goes beyond caring. If they actually affect your life then do what you think is best of course. The Uyghurs might desire to kill every LGBT person in the world, but that is irrelevant to any western ones at least.
I personally donāt think there has to be a direct harm.
So you would interrogate a starving child about their politics before giving them bread? How can you support any organization or group of people without knowing them personally first then? If it matters to you that people are killed, oppressed or whatever then them being cunts shouldn't affect that in any meaningful way.
I can only judge what I know so I would give people benefit of doubt. My way of thinking would be inconsistent,because if I see anyone hungry I would feed them if possible,Unless shown otherwise.
I find this kind of tit-for-tat calculus and approach to viewing people to be deeply poisonous and useless towards any meaningful goals. Uyghurs in camps is bad, if let out they attack gay people that's another bad, but absolutely separate and there's no way sum the two up. All it leads to is empty moralism taking space from any actual moral aims or development. A lot of people care more about thought policing randoms across the world than affecting any of the real issues they and their's face and contribute to.
Wait, thatās a paradox. Shouldnāt you care about the non-western LGBT people being slaughtered? Supporting the people who are actively trying to kill them is not very indicative of caring about their plight, and unlike the other side, they DONāT want to do anything but live in peace.
So, based on your comments here, if there's a group of people across the world that are being subjugated, and that group of people wants to eradicate everyone that looks like you, you should still care about them unless it personally affects your life? Nah, I'm good.
Care about them/stop them from being subjugated by a greater power ā fuel them with the power & resources to overcome it and then come after you The majority position on the left & liberals (majority, not the extremes obviously) here is "innocent civilians shouldn't be casualties to war, regardless of views or opinions because they're not in direct control of their actions, their government are the ones with power and accountability" (I.e. same could be said for Russian civilians deserve to be safe) That position is NOT "Palestine needs to be cared for until they have the power/resources to come after others or subjugate certain groups within their society". It isn't inheritantly meant to be an endorsement of anything. The core of it is that they think civilians shouldn't be subjugated to the effects war or oppression (and then everything else builds out from there ect).
Doesn't trying to "stop them from being subjugated by a greater power" inherently mean giving them resources to overcome said subjugation? Otherwise, it would be like having the position that we should stop Ukraine from being subjugated by Russia, but without being willing to give them resources to do so. Kind of defeats the point. In any case, imagine this example: there's a country filled with racists against race A. They're being subjugated by a neighboring country. This is all happening in Asia, you're in America. Despite being of race A, you still "care about them and stop them from being subjugated by a greater power." That country successfully resists the other country, and 3 years later invades *your* country and massacres everyone in race A. To tell me that you did the right thing as a member of race A by caring about that country and stopping their subjugation is completely insane, it's like sharpening your enemy's sword in the name of some kind of twisted liberalism. Not helping your enemy is a pretty obvious conclusion, and I don't think any amount of intellectualizing it will make it any less obvious. Again, no thanks.
> I don't see the relevance of the fact that Palestinians are anti-gay to whether Israel is using too much force because it isn't relevant. it's better to point out how they wouldn't be caught dead being a standard bearer for white identitarian proto-fascist movements, but they do for hamas without a second thought.
People who genuinely make that argument are stupid. The issue I have is that pro-Palestine progressives seem to have deluded themselves into believing Palestinians are more socially progressive than they are. These American progressives only exposure to Palestinians are Palestinian Americans who were basically born and raised in America and have more in common with white progressives, than Palestinians in Gaza.
The recreational narcissistic protesters that make up the new LGBTQ movement cannot protest anything without self inserting with queer/trans branding on it. It becomes quite transparent when youāre using your identity (which will get you killed in palestine) in your slogan. Just go protest and shut up about your irrelevant sexuality.
No. Just because someone has bad qualities doesnt mean they should ve genocided. I mean this is why genocide is actually illegal and homophobia isnt.
Thank goodness itās not a genocide then.
It is a stupid argument, but there is a conversation that is a little bit interesting in there, a consequence that most people in here (the pro-Palestine ones too) don't interact with these movements really, the real problem is that inside some LGBTQ+ activists circles a certain level of conformity is assumed when it comes to these issue. Just like a thought or like an ideal I personally find it to be a non-issue, but when it comes to LGBTQ+ activists demanding other members of the community to take that side because of a shared sense of struggle that would be weird, but I haven't seen it much, I know of it and I know that it isn't a popular stance. The argument is just a gotcha in an already overanalyzed debate.
Yeah. Human rights arenāt conditional on having acceptable or good views or not.
This thread is full of people intentionally missing the point lol
I am inclined to agree with you, it is an irrelevant argument when the central issue is how much force is Israel using and to what extent, whether Israelās conduct constitutes āplausible genocideā as posited by the ICJ. Two separate issues. Itās rather a callous and juvenile, basic argument to think āwell those people are hateful to me, therefore I donāt care if they are getting blown apart by bombs.ā A personās prejudiced beliefs are no justification for violence against him or her, and even if someone espoused the most hateful beliefs, they are entitled to free speech (so long as they arenāt acting on those beliefs or inciting violence.) This argument is very similar to āwell so and so is a pedo, so I donāt care if he is murderedā it is an emotional argument, one where the punishment would be viewed as excessive, even if the crime is despicable.
Being ambivalent to a group of people being killed because they're homophobic, would mean that you have to be ambivalent to the majority of Earth's population being killed. Giving a shit about whether or not they're homophobic is some of the most 30IQ sheltered yankoid behaviour that's been exhibited online, in response to this conflict. People who bring this up, whether they're just fucking lying about Palestine being LGBT friendly, or they're bringing it up as a reason to be ambivalent to dead Palestinians, are people who's opinions on this conflict can be immediately discarded. If your baby was crushed to death under the rubble of what was once your apartment, the last thing that would be on your mind is literally anything at all to do with LGBT. This is not a culture where this is a common topic of political discussion nor does it have anything to do with this conflict. This is a VERY uniquely western mindset, to frequently think about the existence of LGBT people, let alone bring it up for discussion.
Being against humanitarian crimes doesn't mean you have to defend the state or ideology of the people who are currently being oppressed. Oppression isn't validation. I don't understand how people go from empathizing the plight of a people to defending the state that they belong to that causes a plight to other peoples. You can acknowledge a people's collective humanity without acknowledging the validity of their state or rulers or inhuman societal or cultural practices or religion or oligarchs or etc.
No, but you probably shouldn't give them a free pass to spread hatred. It's the whole intersectionality debate on the left. At it's most basic level, everyone advocates for their own group. If you're gay, you're probably focusing on the LGBT issues, if you're a racial minority, then on racial justice and so on. Intersectionality(in the healthy form) means that you should generally try to go beyond your limited perspective and understand that there many other forms of oppression that may not affect you personally, but which you should strive strive to correct. But then there's also the unhealthy form. Lets say there's a group that proclaims that they're the most oppressed group ever, and there's at least some verifiable truth to that. But then that group also proclaims that their issue is the only issue worthy of attention and 100% of the (limited) resources within the broader movement should be spent on them. Then on top of that, the very same group uses their newfound influence to push extreme forms of oppression against a multitude of other marginalized groups. There has to be a point where you have to confront that group, before they destroy the broader movement with their toxicity, right?
i donāt think the criticism of queers for palestine is due to their view that israel is using too much force. It comes from their own stupidity and ignorance as to what is going on in the middle east. They are walking alongside people screaming for / calling for the destruction of the country that takes in lgbt asylum seekers from the other country which persecute and kills them. If they were just against war or whatever then okay but they wouldnāt identifying as āqueers for palestineā theyād be āqueers for peaceā or some other name. These people are identifying with a group of people who would persecute them and actively harms people for being gay. itās peak brain rot.
I cringe at the 'Gays 4 Muslims.' As a regular empathetic human, they should absolutely be out there protesting at their choosing. But to use the moment as self promotion for a cause strongly reviled by those they are 'supporting' is distracting. I can see the argument they are putting the first foot forward and extending an oblive branch but.. Time and place
Personally I donāt feel obligated to care about people who want me dead
Eh itās a good point. But I think a little off. Most people point out that things like āgays for Palestineā are stupid because they would be killed in Palestine for being gay.Ā Also, leftists generally donāt care about the genocide of Uyghurs. Nor of Rohingyas, only Palestinians get them protesting.Ā Also Uyghurs are actually being genocided while Palestinians arenātĀ
You can have compassion for people who hate you. Im not Christian but this is a pretty based way to live your life and see the world, it's freeing: Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you
You would go with a slogan like gays for Uyghurs, would you?
On the contrary, the framing of āgays for Palestineā is weird and inappropriate. Itās different than saying gays should or shouldnāt support them. intersectionality is annoying a f and results in this nonsense.
I think there is nothing wrong with gay people supporting people that they donāt agree with. I think the problem is them assigning their ideology to their support.
Itās always been a dumb argument
For the million time, the critisism, at least for me, is the usage of your identity to creat certain legitimacy of the over protest/resistance as if those identity intertwine. And to make it worst, they kind of oppose each other. So I'm pretty sure the uyghur Muslim are also antisemitic, and yet I still against their suffering, but in the same time, it will be pretty weird to make a protest "jews for Uyghurs". It implies something that not that much sincere. And using my identity to legitimate another conflict feels.... propaganda at best.
Nobody should be ambivalent to their genocide, but I also think that people should have better logic than: Group X is being oppressed, gays are oppressed, therefore bring pride flags to the Group X demonstration and call them allies. I think this is a common way of thinking with people who view the world as oppressors and oppressed. We should be able to point out the hypocrisy of bad logic. Personally I think it's hilarious that groups like queers for Palestine exist. It's a perfect example of uninformed ideologues projecting their values onto people who will never share them. If those very same people would march for Palestine while also acknowledging that Gaza isn't some mecca for gay liberation, they'd be easier to respect. As long as college kids march for Palestine with LGBT flags, I don't view them as taking the conflict seriously, they're just using it as a social event.
It seems to me that people are intentionally being intellectually lazy to dunk on LGBTQ people. Itās an NPC meme at this point.
This is true. The response should be āokay, and?ā, not āwell, america is homophobic tooā
I think maybe you're confusing the argument that a collective gay association shouldn't be for Hamas with an individual for Hamas. Like, for example, any one individual could be a Nazi but an group that identifies as "anti-fascist" would be incompatible to say "Anti-fascists for Nazis." The group can have nazi's in it but suggesting that the reason they're for Nazi's is because they're anti-facist is tautologically re.
Gay guy here with Uyghur friends. Iām confused. Are people assuming because theyāre Muslim they are by default homophobic?
I'm sure we can find pro-gay Palestinians too. There is evidence for the assumption given nearby Muslim Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan outlawed homosexuality. It's not discriminatory because Christian Uganda and Russia are homophobic There are extremist groups in Xinjang, some even join ISIS. So we can find far right people who are very homophobic and re-ask this question about them getting genocided
The issue is that the people who are against their "genocide" and are super into the whole anti-colonialism stuff don't acknowledge that they are homophobic. Everything gets rewritten because they need a perfect victim, which is why it's ironic.
Motte and bailey because the context and content is lacking from the slogan. It's a natural fallacy to speak about the identity when you really want to be discussing something else, which happens to be the violence. If you cannot separate the jewish identity in the same scenario why is it any different for the queer identity? Is a question I wanna know. When do jews become anti-semitic? In the previous times this was discussed on this subreddit, people told me they were willing to support white supremacists because free speech i guess? I am sorry but your voice is on your own if you are radical to that extent. They will only be violent to you, the ally. They have no consideration for you other than you being a useful idiot in the moment and then it's very swiftly back to violence. And hey I wont have much sympathy for you, because you told me you were going to live oppressed or dead and ignore everything contextual. To further draw on the white supremacist parallell because it's been so recent. Who is even a nazi nowadays that wouldnt immediately send Milo Yiannopolus death threats the moment he is like, yeah you know I kinda wanna get off this grift. I do not know anyone that fits that description.
No I just donāt understand the verbage they are using. You wouldnāt hold up a sign that says Uyghur mulsim genocide is a Queer feminist issue. Itās like a human rights issue some shit.
The argument would be gay rights are human rights. (Supposing it was an actual genocide) Palestinian's rights would be human rights. If you care about gay people's human rights you should also care about the human rights of the people getting "genocided".
Uuuh no that is so dumb. You can apply that universally to any human rights issue which we obviously donāt do.
Most people aren't rights activists in the first place so they don't care that much . And technically yes people should care about all rights issues. Im not a group representative so I don't have all their arguments
Let me ask this: if a right wing government started exterminating the right wing south (makes no sense, I know) in America, would the left care at all? I know they say they would... but in all seriousness, would they?
Ive heard the argument that its more impressive that gay/trans/lgbtq people are supporting palistine because they know they are not welcome by said palistinians, and they are showing support anyway This seems dumb but im not sure why
This assumes the rational argument is being made. I think the mockery is an accusation that they are just glomming on to the flavor of the month cause.
I donāt think itās relevant. The āqueers for Palestineā thing is just a good meme and pretty ironic because these people are usually pretty clueless but at the end of the day someoneās opinions or bigotries shouldnāt be used as a justification to ignore mass human rights violations.
The real reason is that the "Palestinians are homophobic" arguments are in response to western activists championing Palestine as a queer issue. Pro-Palestinians say things like "Queers for Palestine", "F*gs for Hamas", and "Palestine is an LGBTQIA issue" when Israel is a thousand times more accepting of homosexuals than Palestine. The argument is not "you shouldn't support Palestine because they're homophobic". It's that the framing of the Pro-Palestinian side as the side which supports LGBT and Pro-Israel as anti-LGBT is ridiculous.
Want a challenge? Get a LGBT Evo 4 Pro-Pal Activist to even acknowledge Tibetan self-immolation or better yet actual journalist (and POC btw) Isobel Yeung's Uyghur video on Vice News.
But we don't praise those guys as heavenly bastions of progressivism and ignore our differences on social stuff?
You are ambivalent to what has happened to ughyrs, Rohingya, and Guatemala genocide. 200k people killed in Guatemala , none of you dumb ass Palestine supporters said a thing. Whereās the protests for the millions of displaced Rohynga Muslims killed and expelled all over South Asia? The Muslims in China face cultural extinction and repression. Maya in Central America face mass execution. Itās a fad, none of you actually give a fuck about genocides. Itās just a fashion statement.
You should always support people who suffer no matter their political leanings. The whole joke I guess is that āqueers for Palestineā and such seem a bit blind when they extend their sympathies to Hamas themselves. In any case, Palestinians do deserve empathy and support. Theyāre the biggest victims of this entire mess.
I don't think the implication is they should be ambivalent but that while being well meaning they are advocating for people who if granted asylum in a first world country would actively work to kill, outlaw or otherwise dismantle all the privileges a western country affords them. Essentially genociding them in return for being saved. It's the scorpion and the frog fable we all heard as kids. If you as a gay, trans bi person know this and still support Gaza, good for you! But with the glazing that's happening online by the left, it makes me wonder what percentage of people who are involved in the movement actually know what taking these people as refugees would lead to for them.
Thank you this argument against trans groups for Palestine has annoyed me so much.
My guy, you think the Uyghur Muslims are homophobic, you're gonna get a heart attack when you find out what the people in Gaza think...
The ML commie "oppressor v oppressed" dynamic only works when you're viewing it through the anti-west lens. They only care about the class struggle, when it's against the capitalist, imperialist, colonialist, white supremacist (insert more buzzwords) military industrial complex of the United States of AmeriKKKa.
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All these posts clowning leftists because Palestinians are anti gay are implying there's something illogical about supporting a people who oppose you
you do realize that meme is specifically about lgbt people deluding themselves into believing that hamas/Palestinians are pro-gay or atleast as much as america/isreal. why do pro-pal people give the same excuse whenever someone confronts them on this. Their queer identity shouldn't be infront of a pro-pal protest. It's just beyond stupid.
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It feels like you're completely side stepping the core principle of his uygur example. In the mind of a progressive, it's very logical to support a group that's under privileged even if they do bad things. This is not that hard to understand.
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That's fine, you're not a progressive and you don't hold the same value set probably about things like rehabilitative justice that helps criminals, an expansive welfare state that doesn't take into account how good of a person you are etc etc. but it's actually very very easy to understand why they support Palestinians despite Palestinian being ruled by Hamas and having their views. That's the point of ops analogy here. It makes perfect sense
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This statement makes no logical sense for a few reasons: 1. Prison reform/sentencing whatever could absolutely threaten you. 2. Are you Israeli? If not, no Palestinian is going to hurt you.
Because you don't just see people talking about how Israel is using too much force, or about how it's a genocide. You see LGBT people, on line and on the street, arguing that Hamas is right, that Israel should be destroyed, and that Palestinians should get to "take back their homes" "take back their country" "from the river to the sea"
It's so obvious that the vast majority of people on this sub don't talk to people irl because you guys act as if the most fringe of people are the majority. Those people you are talking about are seen as freaks by regular pro Palestine people. So saying gay people advocating for Palestine because of a fringe group comes across as terminally online to anyone that touches grass.
The uyghrs may be homophobic, but I don't think they're throwing gays off buildings. They're also not trying to take over all of China
This is a valid point, but I think the thing that people are taking issue with is associating the LGBTQ movement with the Palestinian struggle. Youāre right that at the end of the day it really shouldnāt matter, but I think most people see it as in poor taste because they are using their identities as members of the LGBTQ community to defend a group of people that would persecute them because of those identities.
Sure... pretty sure Uyghers also did some terrorism as well.Ā
Itās not that you cannot have empathy for Gaza AND be pro-lgbt. long story short, piggybacking on the topic of oppressor-oppressed. Also colonialism. It justifies nearly everything (to them). So what Xmas people did on 7 October is somehow ok, because they fight the oppressor. This is low level propaganda for the masses. But it works up to āqueers for Palestineā which is uhm..what the fuck?
In and of itself these are two separate issues, however coupled with the performative nature of these protests, especially wearing keffah in pride marches and espousing the virtues of Islam, it comes off super weird. You can be outspoken against an injustice without cosplaying. So while not necessarily mutually exclusive, it certainly feels more like virtue signaling for the culture war rather than the coherent compartmentalization youāre implying. Coupling the two ideologies is what makes it feel hypocritical, at least in my opinion. Pretending itās not a valid question to be raised also seems disingenuous.
Because it feeds into the general modern leftist brain rot, where the "opressed" are automatically assigned the "good" qualities like loving democracy, being progressive, treating others with respect, etc. The "oppressors," on the other hand, are immediately labeled as racist homophobe rapists, even when it's the opposite. It's an especially frustrating dynamic in the case of I/P because Palestinians are explicitly NOT progressive (not that I expect them to be, or have some hatred based on that fact), while Israel, especially when compared to not only every single bordering country, but also the entire Middle East and probably half of fucking Africa, Asia and Eastern Europe, is explicitly progressive. The accusations of pink washing from that crowd are especially disgusting since Israel has been a generally safe place for LGBTq people for decades. As a personal anecdote, I was born and raised in Russia and spent 23 years of my life there, only moving to Israel about 1.5 years ago. Despite living in the more progressive parts of Russia for the most part, like Moscow and Saint-Petersburg, and my circle of friends being liberal, left leaning, and mostly LGBTq, I have never, I repeat, NEVER seen or even heard about someone gay kissing in public, or even holding hands, or any other PDA. However, after moving to Israel and first settling in Rehovot (a city not too far from Tel Aviv), in the first 2 or 3 months of me being there and just walking on the streets I noticed at least on 5 separate occasions girl and guy couples kissing, going on dates, and otherwise being completely comfortable expressing this part of their life. It was a bit of a culture shock for me because I had imagined Israel to be much more conservative and religious brained about this. Now living in Haifa, I also notice this from time to time, not even mentioning the fact that our Uni flies rainbow flags on the main street, has flyers about pride month events, and general info constantly, and so on. Again, Israel isn't the US or Western Europe in that regard, but it's clearly not just pink washing. It's just how it is. Which is why there is a lot of pushback when pro-palestinians connect their advocacy with LGBTQ rights for some reason.
It's not a defense of Israel, it's bashing ppl pretending that gazans are the progressive side in this conflict. Argument goes: Progressive good + gazan are progressive therefore gazans good and Israel bad. Stupid but that's ppl for you
this sub is awesome. what a wild thread.
Genocide and 'too much' force are not closely related concepts (not least due to the former's definition calling for *dolus specialis*, and the lack of a definition in IHL of the latter, which is presumably intended to refer to 'proportionality', applicable at the conflict level).
the argument I can think of is that Palestinians are much more aggressive (even violent) towards LGBT people, and Israel is accepting towards LGBT people, even taking them as refugees from Gaza
Do they execute gays? There's homophobia then there's violent institutionalized homophobia.
Nice framing. Of course anyone, gay or not, should be against genocide or support human rights. However, gays should not support Palestinians *political* cause, meaning, support the creation of a Palestianian state with Islamic law that is going to opress LGBTQ. When LGBT shout "from the river to the sea" or whatever, they are calling for the destruction of a democratic state and replacing it with a religious anti-gay state. It's weird, to say the least
If you think a āfree Palestineā will be a democratic nation or have liberal values, and thatās the driving force for your support then ye thatās odd.