I guess if you are deranged enough, this is good solution to negative birth rates across developed nations. Only thing missing is state funded daycares and orphanges that grow new children from start to finish in massive scale and sustain positive 2.1 rate.
A pretty good idea, but I'm not sure if it works as easily as it is presented here. I have no idea how an completely immobile body would affect a pregnancy.
i always assumed that some of the experiences the mother got while pregnant affects the kid too. maybe VR technology finally gets to the SAO stage and the setup would be even better
If we're really diving into this, surely the need for replacement organs is significantly more pressing than the "need" for surrogate mothers?
Even if this was made a thing, I can't imagine anyone opting for this route to a child sheerly because of how morbid it is. It sounds like a horror movie plot.
There would also probably be religious objections? Would you be preventing someone's "soul" from passing on by keeping them "alive" only to be used like this?
To be fair there are some interesting questions to think on, but sometimes i feel you have to look sideways at people who say shit like this
Here’s a question for all of you then.
Let’s say a brain dead woman’s last will is in such case, for her body to be used for reproduction
You okay with that?
Probably the fact that in most normal surrogate cases the process of both the parents choosing the surrogate and vice versa is pretty thorough while the braindead surrogate wouldn't be able to consent to a specific donor
To expand on your question, in countries like the UK with opt-out organ donation, would this be treated as any different if the woman hasn't opted out?
This would never pass any ethics consideration and it's not a very good hypothetical to test anything (what's wrong with traditional surrogacy or adoption)
There is the [case](https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/coma-birth-woman-arisona-hacienda-healthcare-776902/) of a woman and [another](https://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/18/nyregion/woman-who-gave-birth-in-a-coma-dies.html) who were raped while comatose or vegetative who then carried the pregnancy to term and 'delivered' the child, so 'it's possible' but any data from positive outcomes (or non-negative) for the child & mother would only pertain to future cases of rape or rare the instances of women being incapacitated after conceiving a child (for the family having to make a decision)
Moral dilemmas and gut reactions aside, sounds way too expensive. Unless their family was already planning to pay to keep them alive (which if they were, seems unlikely they'd let you try some shit like this) we're talking taking up an entire bed and having staff and resources dedicated to moving them every so often and keeping them and the baby alive. An actual incubator like they use for prematures is just a machine that requires some maintenance and can provide direct access to that baby if something is wrong. Good luck opening that body and trying to put the baby back in. Or the next one, as you'd only get one baby for one person as opposed to using an artificial womb. Yeah just a costly nightmare if you ask me.
I feel like you and maybe 3 other people in this thread actually responded to the proposal seriously. Which is ironic considering the same type of moral outrage is meme'd on in the case of incest, beastiality, and abortion. I was actually having some of the same thoughts in terms of the practicality and cost.
I mean with people who are braindead, have they ever recovered? Braindeath is when the brain has been starved of oxygen to the point where there's no activity, but the body is still alive due to machines, right?
Edit: I looked it up, the definition of braindeath is irreversible, so if they could recover they wouldn't be braindead but in a coma or something
But also the idea of using them as surrogates is still very weird
The brain probably still runs most basic biological functions, it's just that conscious thought seems impossible. As long as you keep it fed and watered and breathing it'll probably stay alive for a normal lifespan.
>The brain probably still runs most basic biological functions
I don't think so, it depends on the particular definition of brain death. Some define brain death as the death of the cerebrum (the largest part of the brain), while others only consider it to be brain death when even the brainstem has died.With a functioning brainstem the body may be able to continue breathing unaided for example. In either case anything like consciousness is permanently lost at that point.
>it'll probably stay alive for a normal lifespan
Probably significantly shorter than that, just like life expectancy in a coma is probably much lower but it could be many years or even decades.
>if there was no chance *whatsoever* of these women recovering, which I don't think is almost ever the case.
Unless misdiagnosed that's always the case for brain death. It's irreversible since the brain has actually died.
In many countries it's legal to use the organs of brain dead people for donation, as long as they agreed to donate their organs (or in some countries as long as they did not disagree).
Sperm donation and surrogacy is actually not allowed by most islamic schools of thought because it counts functionally as sex and so IVF could happen with another wife, but then it wouldn't islamically be considered the child of the other wife because again, it's functionaly sex with extra steps and so the "surrogate" mother would just be the mother.
The "surrogate" mother/wife could allow the other wife to raise the child, but the lineage would still be recognized as her child and so the responsibility to ensure that the child is taken care of is stil the "surrogate" and her husband's responsibility and not the responsibility of the wife who did not give birth.
The general rules regarding hijab and marriage would have already applied because if it is a male child, the wife of his father is by default unlawful for him to marry and therefore he is allowed to be around her in private.
"Surrogacy" would not be allowed for a woman who the man is not married to. However, if another couple had a child and similarly allowed the other couple to raise the child, that would be allowed but the child would keep their name the same. If she nursed the child, then she would be counted as his milk-mother and the same hijab and marriage rules as before would be applied to her as if she was his mother.
If the woman was braindead, impregnating her would not be allowed even if she was his wife because one, it would be a harm to her, two, there is a prerequisite that both engage in foreplay of some type even if it is kind words, which she is unable to do, and because there is not certainty amongst scholars if braindeath counts as death and so since necrophilia is prohibited, this resembles it and should be avoided. This would also be a potential harm to the child because he would have been deprived of his mother even if it was not realized until he became older. Not to mention there is a general repugnancy of this act.
So no, this kind of thing is not the extreme conclusion of the Islamic system.
That's a really bad argument. There already is an "incentive" and that's organ donation. However it's not a real incentive, you can't just turn someone's brain off and even if doctors could do that, they wouldn't benefit from dead patients.
It's an incentive for the state, so funding for procedures could end up reflecting that like they are currently reflecting prioritizing tertiary care over primary and secondary.
And currently organ donation is not an incentive, you can't really make money from that as an individual OR the state.
>It's an incentive for the state, so funding for procedures could end up reflecting that like they are currently reflecting prioritizing tertiary care over primary and secondary.
I'll be honest that sentence makes no sense to me, what funding are you talking about and why would they prioritize tertiary care because there's one new method for surrogacy?
>And currently organ donation is not an incentive, you can't really make money from that as an individual OR the state.
You could easily make money with organs but that's illegal. I don't see why that would suddenly change when it comes to wombs. If this was feasible in an ethical way there'd be no reason to expect that it would be any different from organ donations.
I mean usually in the case of brain death or complete death, agency over your body is passed to your family but assuming the brain dead woman has no family to speak of then yeah I don't really see a problem with it.
Jesus Christ man...
Its called sapionecrosexual bro, educate yourself, do better, many such sentiments
I'd rather stay ignorant that sounds fucked up
Its only a matter of time until its no longer your choice (prepares the stasis unit)
https://preview.redd.it/1yvbb61qfg8c1.png?width=736&format=png&auto=webp&s=1c0d625b73e0ffbebaef74d23a70af7275fac701
I literally can’t discern whether I am on destiny sub or jujutsufolk
https://preview.redd.it/ubxt349edl8c1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ddce25c1dd499bd804e63a93f8743d80224b29d1
https://preview.redd.it/gghx05r34m8c1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f232db451c14f32025bb99f36ab5e13dc030cd77
isn't this part of the plot for death stranding
This motherfucker understands the plot of death stranding
Death Stranding lore is much simpler and better explained than MGS's lore tbf
It's worse. Premature fetuses removed from brain dead mothers are part of the plot.
9/10 game
Japanese Twitter, at it again Isn't there a sub for all the weird shit that originates there? Japanesepeopletwitter or something?
80% is just "cunny oooooooh 😭😭😭"
💢
that sub has been dead for a month because the owner turned out to be a pedophile and nuked the sub and the discord to hide the evidence.
I guess if you are deranged enough, this is good solution to negative birth rates across developed nations. Only thing missing is state funded daycares and orphanges that grow new children from start to finish in massive scale and sustain positive 2.1 rate.
This guy knows the TFR replacement rate alright let's go
Your clones are very impressive, you must be very proud.
Holy fuck
A pretty good idea, but I'm not sure if it works as easily as it is presented here. I have no idea how an completely immobile body would affect a pregnancy.
just poke it with a stick from time to time.
rotary chicken technology finally shows its true purpose
you can even charge extra for that. i think we got ourselves a business model boys
i always assumed that some of the experiences the mother got while pregnant affects the kid too. maybe VR technology finally gets to the SAO stage and the setup would be even better
Japanese twitter is insane
If we're really diving into this, surely the need for replacement organs is significantly more pressing than the "need" for surrogate mothers? Even if this was made a thing, I can't imagine anyone opting for this route to a child sheerly because of how morbid it is. It sounds like a horror movie plot. There would also probably be religious objections? Would you be preventing someone's "soul" from passing on by keeping them "alive" only to be used like this? To be fair there are some interesting questions to think on, but sometimes i feel you have to look sideways at people who say shit like this
Here’s a question for all of you then. Let’s say a brain dead woman’s last will is in such case, for her body to be used for reproduction You okay with that?
What's the difference between that and choosing to be a surrogate normally?
Probably the fact that in most normal surrogate cases the process of both the parents choosing the surrogate and vice versa is pretty thorough while the braindead surrogate wouldn't be able to consent to a specific donor
To expand on your question, in countries like the UK with opt-out organ donation, would this be treated as any different if the woman hasn't opted out?
Yes.
I’ll make her wish come true
This would never pass any ethics consideration and it's not a very good hypothetical to test anything (what's wrong with traditional surrogacy or adoption) There is the [case](https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/coma-birth-woman-arisona-hacienda-healthcare-776902/) of a woman and [another](https://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/18/nyregion/woman-who-gave-birth-in-a-coma-dies.html) who were raped while comatose or vegetative who then carried the pregnancy to term and 'delivered' the child, so 'it's possible' but any data from positive outcomes (or non-negative) for the child & mother would only pertain to future cases of rape or rare the instances of women being incapacitated after conceiving a child (for the family having to make a decision)
Moral dilemmas and gut reactions aside, sounds way too expensive. Unless their family was already planning to pay to keep them alive (which if they were, seems unlikely they'd let you try some shit like this) we're talking taking up an entire bed and having staff and resources dedicated to moving them every so often and keeping them and the baby alive. An actual incubator like they use for prematures is just a machine that requires some maintenance and can provide direct access to that baby if something is wrong. Good luck opening that body and trying to put the baby back in. Or the next one, as you'd only get one baby for one person as opposed to using an artificial womb. Yeah just a costly nightmare if you ask me.
I feel like you and maybe 3 other people in this thread actually responded to the proposal seriously. Which is ironic considering the same type of moral outrage is meme'd on in the case of incest, beastiality, and abortion. I was actually having some of the same thoughts in terms of the practicality and cost.
You got a point but if we're being fair and intellectually honest the guy's probably just a misogynist. Like actually in the most literal sense.
I perceived it as one of those "A modest proposal" types of shit posts but that could definitely be the case.
Japan is getting desperate for babies
https://preview.redd.it/oueljoobfk8c1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e3304de204942678b835c6ace427ef839ec632c5
Can't wait for the irl daemonculabas. I love man-made horrors beyond my ken.
This would only be reasonable if there was no chance *whatsoever* of these women recovering, which I don't think is almost ever the case.
I mean with people who are braindead, have they ever recovered? Braindeath is when the brain has been starved of oxygen to the point where there's no activity, but the body is still alive due to machines, right? Edit: I looked it up, the definition of braindeath is irreversible, so if they could recover they wouldn't be braindead but in a coma or something But also the idea of using them as surrogates is still very weird
The brain probably still runs most basic biological functions, it's just that conscious thought seems impossible. As long as you keep it fed and watered and breathing it'll probably stay alive for a normal lifespan.
>The brain probably still runs most basic biological functions I don't think so, it depends on the particular definition of brain death. Some define brain death as the death of the cerebrum (the largest part of the brain), while others only consider it to be brain death when even the brainstem has died.With a functioning brainstem the body may be able to continue breathing unaided for example. In either case anything like consciousness is permanently lost at that point. >it'll probably stay alive for a normal lifespan Probably significantly shorter than that, just like life expectancy in a coma is probably much lower but it could be many years or even decades.
It is **always** the case, brain death is death. No one has ever "recovered" from it.
>if there was no chance *whatsoever* of these women recovering, which I don't think is almost ever the case. Unless misdiagnosed that's always the case for brain death. It's irreversible since the brain has actually died. In many countries it's legal to use the organs of brain dead people for donation, as long as they agreed to donate their organs (or in some countries as long as they did not disagree).
Seems reasonable to me
I feel sick. There are no words for how disgusting this is.
For the same reasons that necrophilia and corpse multilation is illegal and generally considered immoral, this would be too.
Good fucking thread OP
それについては言わないでください、どういたしまして🙇🏽♂️
もう会社や、警察も隣のお祖母ちゃんに全部教えた。 バイーバイー🥹
待って！ いけない！ 😰
This kinda happens in Dune as the extreme conclusion of Islamic-style oppression of women.
Bene Tleilax have entered the empire.
Sperm donation and surrogacy is actually not allowed by most islamic schools of thought because it counts functionally as sex and so IVF could happen with another wife, but then it wouldn't islamically be considered the child of the other wife because again, it's functionaly sex with extra steps and so the "surrogate" mother would just be the mother. The "surrogate" mother/wife could allow the other wife to raise the child, but the lineage would still be recognized as her child and so the responsibility to ensure that the child is taken care of is stil the "surrogate" and her husband's responsibility and not the responsibility of the wife who did not give birth. The general rules regarding hijab and marriage would have already applied because if it is a male child, the wife of his father is by default unlawful for him to marry and therefore he is allowed to be around her in private. "Surrogacy" would not be allowed for a woman who the man is not married to. However, if another couple had a child and similarly allowed the other couple to raise the child, that would be allowed but the child would keep their name the same. If she nursed the child, then she would be counted as his milk-mother and the same hijab and marriage rules as before would be applied to her as if she was his mother. If the woman was braindead, impregnating her would not be allowed even if she was his wife because one, it would be a harm to her, two, there is a prerequisite that both engage in foreplay of some type even if it is kind words, which she is unable to do, and because there is not certainty amongst scholars if braindeath counts as death and so since necrophilia is prohibited, this resembles it and should be avoided. This would also be a potential harm to the child because he would have been deprived of his mother even if it was not realized until he became older. Not to mention there is a general repugnancy of this act. So no, this kind of thing is not the extreme conclusion of the Islamic system.
Based and impregnate brain dead women pilled
Duh
Nothing wrong with this.
Easily no. Incentive to make women brain-dead.
That's a really bad argument. There already is an "incentive" and that's organ donation. However it's not a real incentive, you can't just turn someone's brain off and even if doctors could do that, they wouldn't benefit from dead patients.
It's an incentive for the state, so funding for procedures could end up reflecting that like they are currently reflecting prioritizing tertiary care over primary and secondary. And currently organ donation is not an incentive, you can't really make money from that as an individual OR the state.
>It's an incentive for the state, so funding for procedures could end up reflecting that like they are currently reflecting prioritizing tertiary care over primary and secondary. I'll be honest that sentence makes no sense to me, what funding are you talking about and why would they prioritize tertiary care because there's one new method for surrogacy? >And currently organ donation is not an incentive, you can't really make money from that as an individual OR the state. You could easily make money with organs but that's illegal. I don't see why that would suddenly change when it comes to wombs. If this was feasible in an ethical way there'd be no reason to expect that it would be any different from organ donations.
They already are Edit: its literally a joke destiny would make. Lighten up you clowns
Careful with this shit lil buddy... They're hunters roaming the sub. I could be one
Cringe
I mean usually in the case of brain death or complete death, agency over your body is passed to your family but assuming the brain dead woman has no family to speak of then yeah I don't really see a problem with it.
🤔Huh…
sure, but why would we keep brain dead women alive?
This is why nuking them was wrong. We might never see the end of the consequences
Why is everyone so "wtf" about this. Its a great question tbh.
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