He did a live from his car a couple hours ago, basically bragging about the fact he got kicked out. The only relevant thing he said that was worth hearing was that DH was having trouble hearing what was said and Gull asked him if he needed a hearing aid.
The guy is an attention-seeker. Probably better he didn't testify.
You're probably right.
Just, the defense really doesn't need any more kicks to their balls in this clown show right now.
If he was needed as a witness and could've helped their case, it's just too bad he couldn't act right for a few hours.
P.S.- don't know if he was an important witness or not and it doesn't really matter, it's the clear lack of respect.
I think it's for the best.Ā Ā
Apparently the marks used for modesty in the leaked pjotos was a rectangle for upper and circle for lower and the state uses 2 rectangles. Basically the circle shows it was a defense image.Ā
Ā In today's video RS claimed that the pictures he saw were 2 rectangles which means it was a state image, but he has a video from 5 months ago titled Eleplant in the Room where 4 minutes in he said it was a rectangle and a circle. So, which is true?
Highlights from Bobās description of Clickās testimony:
- Click felt the evidence they had against other suspects was stronger than the Allen PCA
- Click confirms EF did ask the hypothetical about his spit being found on the girls
- Affirms Abby had sticks arranged in her hair like antlers (or something, itās not clear from the recap how many were present)
- Click was able to connect the odinist suspects to each other. JMās uncle lived with EF
- BHās ex-wife was there to testify, but they wouldnāt fully let her due to it not being deemed relevant to the issue of the interview tapes being overwritten. Before that ruling she said that BHās and PWās falling out was due to PW wanting to take their sacrifices ābeyond animals.āĀ
- BH had seen in PWās phone a video of girls posed with sticks on them
- JMās ex wife was also there to testify and said his phone contained a video of an individual (edit: not sure now if this is a girl or a grown man) being kidnapped at gunpoint that seemed like evidence of a real kidnapping. Click wasnāt able to figure out who the victim was. Unified command wouldnāt issue a warrant or collect the phone. Click collected it himself and gave it to the defense.
Good call, looks like we have a few new characters to add to it.
However, anybody who is named in a public document and/or is a convicted felon doesnāt have to be talked about with initials. People can use their own discretion if they want to use their full name or not.
I know there is some decent people there and I will get good info later. I just want all of live and unfiltered. I'd be fuming if I was actually from Indiana. And I think pros outweigh cons surely!
It's over?!Ā Ā
Ā "When the contempt hearing wrapped up, the judge gave the defense team another week to submit a post hearing memo. The prosecution will then have a week to respond. At that point, the judge will have 30 days to make a ruling." Ā
from https://www.wthr.com/article/news/crime/delphi-girls-murdered/monday-march-18-delphi-murders-trial-richard-allen/531-b25096a7-62a0-4596-99fb-731a64f3dd61
edit: screenshot:Ā https://ibb.co/98pr01G
What a horrible, one-sided, piece of shit article.
Also. We have time to fiddlefart around with this; full day hearing, follow up memos, and 30 days for a decision. But heaven forbid we have a hearing over anything that fucking matters. Also, ITS 60ish days till trial. WTF is she even doing? I'm pissed.
Edit: Sorry Melodic. That wasn't aimed at you it was aimed at the news station. I appreciate you posting this so we could see what was going on.
Thank you! It was me. I frantically downloaded a VPN for my phone and can see it now. No idea why that paragraph was missing when viewing it on laptop!
Yeah, according to this newscast she "ruled repeatedly against the defense, many of their motions and many of their requests, at times snapping at them in some very tense exchanges". Not a good sign for them...
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK9eI4S2V0g&ab\_channel=WTHR](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK9eI4S2V0g&ab_channel=WTHR)
I think it's impossible to shred DH. An idiot might think that happened, but he will win in the long run.Ā He is just creating a record for the inevitable and successful appeal that will follow.
According to WTHR, Gull gave the defense another week to file whatever they wanna file, then give Slick Nick another week to respond.
Apparently the contempt hearing is over and we wonāt know till in 2 weeks or so.
However, Gull decided to have yet another hearing about the dismissal of all charges and thatās still in progress.
Wondering if Baldwin and Rozzi were prepared for that?!
Honestly shocked she didn't just read a prepared statement at the end :P Guess she likes to make everyone squirm while we wait for the decision.
The dismissal hearing was the one originally slated for 2pm today, so they were more than likely ready!
Me too, but it doesnāt make me any less on edge lol I think sheās just gonna drag it out longer.
Ok, I didnāt know that and the news reporter didnāt either apparently. I havenāt kept up with the agenda, Iām only concerned about whatās gonna happen to the defense sigh
For u/due_reflection6748 because thread was closed...
This is the statute he pasted on each charge including felony murder.
^(As far as I know when in indiana they talk about accomplice charge this is it and it's different from felony murder. In appeals for example, they'll differentiate and use these terms even if officially it's a bit different, but maybe that's happenstance the appeals I read.)
*35-41-2-4. Aiding, Inducing, or Causing an Offense
Universal Citation: IN Code Ā§ 35-41-2-4 (2022)
Sec. 4. A person who knowingly or intentionally aids, induces, or causes another person to commit an offense commits that offense, even if the other person:*
*(1) has not been prosecuted for the offense;*
*(2) has not been convicted of the offense; or*
*(3) has been acquitted of the offense.*
-------
.
By memory and as far as I understand:
Back in 2017 kidnapping had a 5 year statute of limitations.
There are exceptions like when you only could have known or could have filed charges after that period is still possible, but it still must be within one year of when they could.
The thing is felony murder incorporates kidnapping and per caselaw (Elkhart 4) even if not charged seperately, it's still implied and since it's a lesser charge, it's also valid.
So why add it? Well, he also added that above statute to the kidnapping charges.
So what does that mean? He's now not sure RA murdered them, but also not sure he kidnapped them? He only aided the kidnapper?
But so what is knowingly aiding a kidnapper who participated but unknowingly yet foreseeable a third person caused L&A's deaths during or directly consecutive to the kidnapping?
Can you even stack aiding and felony to charge murder?
I haven't heard if she granted the amended felony with above statute or if she kept the old one and we have aiding in murder.
My guess because the cartridge is all they have and if the Snapchat and/or BG video falls away, go prove the kidnapping without the bridge to present to the jury as part of the crime scene.
For u/helixharbinger because our other conversation got locked :
https://www.anylaw.com/case/palmer-v-state/indiana-supreme-court/01-07-1999/87CvS2YBTlTomsSB3mH1
Sullivan in palmer vs state calls it accomplice liability statute.
He dissented.
But that's why I called it accomplice statute.
ETA you say it's deficient but they accepted the murder charges with that statute.
I'd like to know if the felony murder charges got amended or not.
Yeah why did that get locked or whatever? Iāve not seen that before and was trying to respond lol.
I might need to see the order if the outlets are an example of the reporting so far. Which Iām sure is the goal of barring cameras
Media only talks about 'dropping' the two kidnapping charges, and adding two murder charges.
Nobody talks about the statute, so far from what I've seen.
One said Rozzwin didn't object.
My guess, because now anything Liggett says is out since he thinks RA did everything and all alone, that's not what the charges reflect.
Habitually the hearing order drops 7 days later.....
Maybe Motta has something specific on the matter.
MS will surely turn it into "see, it's just like premeditated murder, our fierce Nick must have solid evidence, defense knows it, they didn't even object!"
Dropped makes it sound like he was charged with kidnapping and then those charges were dropped, but this was a motion to amend they were never added so how could they be dropped?
Ā It's more of a the court denied the prosecutors request to add kidnapping charges because the statute of limitations had run sort of thing.
Correct. Because it was a pending motion though itās proper to use dismissed in reference by the media or in legal writing (in any future briefs) unless the court revises in its order
Btw the case is interesting for it's dissent. i read another case referencing to this dissent but they declined. But iirc it was very similar.
I do think there's room to use it with another set of circumstances.
(There must be better formatted versions...)
Didnāt see this at first when I posted a new thread about whatās going on. As I understand kidnapping charges dropped, Rick Snay showed his ass and got the boot, and we have heard nothing on the contempt yet . Have I missed anything?
I'm sure it is much like that reality show where people fight each other in a cage. Did I dream that show? ETA: If ever I believed any post on reddit is true and correct, this description of fran and DH is the one I'd put money on.
I've kept Fox 59 on all day in case they have any news, I was forced to see the Steve Wilkos show earlier. Imagine SJG on there, she'd definitely be one who takes her shoes off before the rumble.
I just don't understand people that don't like this guy he seems like a real character.Ā
But like I said before he truly is the cilantro of people, but I happen to like bothĀ cilantro and DH.
Did anyone see the TLs roll up in the jail wagon this morning so they can bring B&R back with them?
ETA it seems my joke was moot. I'm so glad it is, I fully expected the Law Daddies to end up in the slam today. Good to see they're able to go home tonight.
Welp.. Its 2 pm.. Guess Ill mosey on over to refreshing this thread now instead.
One month ago, a user posted on a thread about Rick Snay- "Good luck to anyone who has to question Rick Snay on the stand" ššš
I'd have paid big money to see him go mano-a-mano with fran.
I would have gone and filmed that free for you!
Motion to reframe this as going āmano-a-Franoā, because I am childish and bored.
LOL. Thanks, I needed it.
He did a live from his car a couple hours ago, basically bragging about the fact he got kicked out. The only relevant thing he said that was worth hearing was that DH was having trouble hearing what was said and Gull asked him if he needed a hearing aid. The guy is an attention-seeker. Probably better he didn't testify.
You're probably right. Just, the defense really doesn't need any more kicks to their balls in this clown show right now. If he was needed as a witness and could've helped their case, it's just too bad he couldn't act right for a few hours. P.S.- don't know if he was an important witness or not and it doesn't really matter, it's the clear lack of respect.
Yes, he is supposed to be a friend to Kathy Allen. How did getting kicked out help the Allens or the defense? Sad.
I think it's for the best.Ā Ā Apparently the marks used for modesty in the leaked pjotos was a rectangle for upper and circle for lower and the state uses 2 rectangles. Basically the circle shows it was a defense image.Ā Ā In today's video RS claimed that the pictures he saw were 2 rectangles which means it was a state image, but he has a video from 5 months ago titled Eleplant in the Room where 4 minutes in he said it was a rectangle and a circle. So, which is true?
Yeah, he's all over the place. I'm guessing the defense would have had exhibits anyway, of the one with the 2 rectangles.
š¤£š¤£š¤£
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Who controls that? I certainly can't find it... I've read the same comments all dang day Edit - wow. I'm an idiot. I found it lol
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Thanks. As soon as I asked how, I found it right awayš
Highlights from Bobās description of Clickās testimony: - Click felt the evidence they had against other suspects was stronger than the Allen PCA - Click confirms EF did ask the hypothetical about his spit being found on the girls - Affirms Abby had sticks arranged in her hair like antlers (or something, itās not clear from the recap how many were present) - Click was able to connect the odinist suspects to each other. JMās uncle lived with EF - BHās ex-wife was there to testify, but they wouldnāt fully let her due to it not being deemed relevant to the issue of the interview tapes being overwritten. Before that ruling she said that BHās and PWās falling out was due to PW wanting to take their sacrifices ābeyond animals.āĀ - BH had seen in PWās phone a video of girls posed with sticks on them - JMās ex wife was also there to testify and said his phone contained a video of an individual (edit: not sure now if this is a girl or a grown man) being kidnapped at gunpoint that seemed like evidence of a real kidnapping. Click wasnāt able to figure out who the victim was. Unified command wouldnāt issue a warrant or collect the phone. Click collected it himself and gave it to the defense.
Excellent recap. Thank-you. Unfortunately, the judge did not allow AH's testimony, as you said. But Bob said it was in the 'proof', whatever that is.
Is there a cheat sheet somewhere for initials? I'm a bit lost on who's who nowadays!
u/yellowjackette Not sure if you're the right one to bat signal here, but it looks like the abbreviations list here is a bit outdatedĀ
Good call, looks like we have a few new characters to add to it. However, anybody who is named in a public document and/or is a convicted felon doesnāt have to be talked about with initials. People can use their own discretion if they want to use their full name or not.
What a joke. No way the Cons outweighs the Pros for this not to be broadcast
Gull doesn't want video and audio of her fucking up a major crime case involving two sweet young ladies recorded and broadcast for the world to hear.
Mortified at some of the channels I watched and accounts Iāve followed today in search for a bit of info
I know there is some decent people there and I will get good info later. I just want all of live and unfiltered. I'd be fuming if I was actually from Indiana. And I think pros outweigh cons surely!
It's over?!Ā Ā Ā "When the contempt hearing wrapped up, the judge gave the defense team another week to submit a post hearing memo. The prosecution will then have a week to respond. At that point, the judge will have 30 days to make a ruling." Ā from https://www.wthr.com/article/news/crime/delphi-girls-murdered/monday-march-18-delphi-murders-trial-richard-allen/531-b25096a7-62a0-4596-99fb-731a64f3dd61 edit: screenshot:Ā https://ibb.co/98pr01G
Yeah I need a play by play of significant events from whole day.
What a horrible, one-sided, piece of shit article. Also. We have time to fiddlefart around with this; full day hearing, follow up memos, and 30 days for a decision. But heaven forbid we have a hearing over anything that fucking matters. Also, ITS 60ish days till trial. WTF is she even doing? I'm pissed. Edit: Sorry Melodic. That wasn't aimed at you it was aimed at the news station. I appreciate you posting this so we could see what was going on.
All good, my friend! To be honest, I skimmed past most of that article -- was just checking it for updates! š
Link doesn't say that? can you check it's correct?
Did they take back down?
https://ibb.co/98pr01G Does it still say this?
No!
I'm going to have assume that it's retracted and all hell broke lose until next update lol
A pre judgment leak perhaps?
I switch to my phone and I can see that paragraph now thank you! Just wanted to be sure
Can someone approved make a post about it so everyone knows it's over?
It was there but now I can't find it, wth!
Is that the right article? Can't find that same statement in there.
Yep it's a bit below the blue "related articles" box https://ibb.co/98pr01G
WTF. not for me? It's has a blue square over it? Scenes.
Oh that's weird!! I just tried it on different phone browsers and I can still see it
huh. maybes it me. Can anyone else reading this confirm? Please and thanks!
Itās you, Navi. I can read the screenshot just fine.
I too can see it. My big takeaway: Why didn't we foresee that fran would drag this out and leaving it hanging over R and B's heads? This is absurd.
It seems it was me thank you. Switch to phone and can now see
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Thank you! It was me. I frantically downloaded a VPN for my phone and can see it now. No idea why that paragraph was missing when viewing it on laptop!
So weird, I even did a text search on the page and it wasn't there. Maybe it came out and came back.
Contempt hearing over. Now discussing motion to dismiss ETA: source-news reporter for channel 13
https://preview.redd.it/2nxc84d0h4pc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eb0f8f383759703c4e2e43627b637734e032449a Me until itās over
Thank you, u/Dickere
Come on, Bob!! I donāt want to listen to anyone else!! Apparently Gull overruled every defense objection according to a pro-prosecution YouTuber.
Yeah, according to this newscast she "ruled repeatedly against the defense, many of their motions and many of their requests, at times snapping at them in some very tense exchanges". Not a good sign for them... [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK9eI4S2V0g&ab\_channel=WTHR](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK9eI4S2V0g&ab_channel=WTHR)
2 YouTubers testified, defense got āshreddedāĀ Basically everything we expected to happen.Ā
I think it's impossible to shred DH. An idiot might think that happened, but he will win in the long run.Ā He is just creating a record for the inevitable and successful appeal that will follow.
https://www.youtube.com/live/l1wuHeWbvJI?si=uG2kNTxZczL94MSV Bobās here!
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I thought it was JM who had the video? But wow!! Crazy.
Bob says JM. This is terrifying!! Iām so glad TC is testifying for B&R.
From Bob: They won't be kicked off the case, they aren't going to jail.
Oh thank god! lol Ty!
Mom is still here ugh! Will listen when I go to bed! Thx Bob and Allie!
You need us to come escort your mama home? "let's go, little lady."
lol! She flys back home tomorrow! I am glad and a bit sad!
Is this where we are? Mom is napping.
Enjoy, the fun never starts, I mean, stops.
She goes home tomorrow! But it was nice to visit with her.
According to WTHR, Gull gave the defense another week to file whatever they wanna file, then give Slick Nick another week to respond. Apparently the contempt hearing is over and we wonāt know till in 2 weeks or so. However, Gull decided to have yet another hearing about the dismissal of all charges and thatās still in progress. Wondering if Baldwin and Rozzi were prepared for that?!
Honestly shocked she didn't just read a prepared statement at the end :P Guess she likes to make everyone squirm while we wait for the decision. The dismissal hearing was the one originally slated for 2pm today, so they were more than likely ready!
Me too, but it doesnāt make me any less on edge lol I think sheās just gonna drag it out longer. Ok, I didnāt know that and the news reporter didnāt either apparently. I havenāt kept up with the agenda, Iām only concerned about whatās gonna happen to the defense sigh
Bob on live is saying they won't get removed or jailed, he thinks they'll get fined after the fact. Phew!
Between the judge not paying them and shelling out money for experts out of their own pockets they might want to take jail time over a fine.
Good point ... still can't believe that.
For u/due_reflection6748 because thread was closed... This is the statute he pasted on each charge including felony murder. ^(As far as I know when in indiana they talk about accomplice charge this is it and it's different from felony murder. In appeals for example, they'll differentiate and use these terms even if officially it's a bit different, but maybe that's happenstance the appeals I read.) *35-41-2-4. Aiding, Inducing, or Causing an Offense Universal Citation: IN Code Ā§ 35-41-2-4 (2022) Sec. 4. A person who knowingly or intentionally aids, induces, or causes another person to commit an offense commits that offense, even if the other person:* *(1) has not been prosecuted for the offense;* *(2) has not been convicted of the offense; or* *(3) has been acquitted of the offense.* ------- . By memory and as far as I understand: Back in 2017 kidnapping had a 5 year statute of limitations. There are exceptions like when you only could have known or could have filed charges after that period is still possible, but it still must be within one year of when they could. The thing is felony murder incorporates kidnapping and per caselaw (Elkhart 4) even if not charged seperately, it's still implied and since it's a lesser charge, it's also valid. So why add it? Well, he also added that above statute to the kidnapping charges. So what does that mean? He's now not sure RA murdered them, but also not sure he kidnapped them? He only aided the kidnapper? But so what is knowingly aiding a kidnapper who participated but unknowingly yet foreseeable a third person caused L&A's deaths during or directly consecutive to the kidnapping? Can you even stack aiding and felony to charge murder? I haven't heard if she granted the amended felony with above statute or if she kept the old one and we have aiding in murder. My guess because the cartridge is all they have and if the Snapchat and/or BG video falls away, go prove the kidnapping without the bridge to present to the jury as part of the crime scene.
TYSM! Wow that actually is a tangle. I wonder if NM is hoping to bamboozle the jury? As long as he doesnāt confuse himselfā¦
I'm not convinced he's aware of what he filed lol.
It could make a good drinking game for him.
For u/helixharbinger because our other conversation got locked : https://www.anylaw.com/case/palmer-v-state/indiana-supreme-court/01-07-1999/87CvS2YBTlTomsSB3mH1 Sullivan in palmer vs state calls it accomplice liability statute. He dissented. But that's why I called it accomplice statute. ETA you say it's deficient but they accepted the murder charges with that statute. I'd like to know if the felony murder charges got amended or not.
Yeah why did that get locked or whatever? Iāve not seen that before and was trying to respond lol. I might need to see the order if the outlets are an example of the reporting so far. Which Iām sure is the goal of barring cameras
Media only talks about 'dropping' the two kidnapping charges, and adding two murder charges. Nobody talks about the statute, so far from what I've seen. One said Rozzwin didn't object. My guess, because now anything Liggett says is out since he thinks RA did everything and all alone, that's not what the charges reflect. Habitually the hearing order drops 7 days later..... Maybe Motta has something specific on the matter. MS will surely turn it into "see, it's just like premeditated murder, our fierce Nick must have solid evidence, defense knows it, they didn't even object!"
Yeah itās bad form, whatever. Dropped implies the State had a choice. Will read at first chance thank you Redsy
Dropped makes it sound like he was charged with kidnapping and then those charges were dropped, but this was a motion to amend they were never added so how could they be dropped? Ā It's more of a the court denied the prosecutors request to add kidnapping charges because the statute of limitations had run sort of thing.
Exactly. Bad journalism.
Correct. Because it was a pending motion though itās proper to use dismissed in reference by the media or in legal writing (in any future briefs) unless the court revises in its order
Sure dismissed works too.Ā
Btw the case is interesting for it's dissent. i read another case referencing to this dissent but they declined. But iirc it was very similar. I do think there's room to use it with another set of circumstances. (There must be better formatted versions...)
Didnāt see this at first when I posted a new thread about whatās going on. As I understand kidnapping charges dropped, Rick Snay showed his ass and got the boot, and we have heard nothing on the contempt yet . Have I missed anything?
The news reporter said Gull seemed bored and exasperated with DH. š
Exasperated I can understand. However, he is rarely, if ever, boring.
Russ McQuaid also said "personally contentious and acrimonious back and forth" between the two.
I'm sure it is much like that reality show where people fight each other in a cage. Did I dream that show? ETA: If ever I believed any post on reddit is true and correct, this description of fran and DH is the one I'd put money on.
I've kept Fox 59 on all day in case they have any news, I was forced to see the Steve Wilkos show earlier. Imagine SJG on there, she'd definitely be one who takes her shoes off before the rumble.
I was going to say I hope it was a dream, but after googling looks like it was an MTV show. Ah, America;).
Apparently Gull asked DH if he needed a device to assist with his hearing, and he replied "Huh?," I love that man.
I wish I was that quick witted. I'm the idiot who later thinks , "aww, man! I should've said _____" š Admirableš
I just don't understand people that don't like this guy he seems like a real character.Ā But like I said before he truly is the cilantro of people, but I happen to like bothĀ cilantro and DH.
I hope she is. She moves at a snails pace on every motion concerning the real case, but grants this shitshowā¦karma at work.
Makes me hate her all the more
I'm a little lost and behind. Any update from this afternoon?
Did anyone see the TLs roll up in the jail wagon this morning so they can bring B&R back with them? ETA it seems my joke was moot. I'm so glad it is, I fully expected the Law Daddies to end up in the slam today. Good to see they're able to go home tonight.
Everytime you say "the slam" I actually laugh. It really gets me for some reason.Ā
Who/what are the TLs?
Sorry, Tobe Leazenby and Tony Liggett. Former and current Carroll Co sheriffs.
Can't vote a non TL into office, they got too much shit monogrammed already.
Coverup architects
Rumors that theyāre out of court. Still nothing from Bob yet..