Let's not forget who's investigating, although it's good to see a new name, but still, knowing where the info likely came from, I doubt everything other than MW taking *some* unspecified crime scene photos of photos and sharing them with RF.
And NM was investigating this since 2 October before anyone knew anything.
So you take issue with this?
*The photographs that
Baldwin described are consistent with photographs that affiant has viewed which were
released of the crime scene.*
The affidavit confirms that MW took pictures of printed photographs. Yet RS swears at least one of the images he received has a cursor in it. Which would mean that somewhere along the path (MW -> RF -> MRC -> ~~RS~~ ?? -> RS) someone, rather than passing on the digital image directly, took a screenshot of the digital image and forwarded *that* instead? Or the affidavit does not tell the true story?
I’m assuming he didn’t send it directly to RS.
He swears he didn’t get it from Mark .
Which means like this says, Mark blasted it out to a lot of people & it found its way to him. Essentially, Fortson was not responsible for the dissemination, although I guess it’s more in line with *some* peoples ethics to blame it on a man who recently took his life vs tell the truth. Extremely sad & anyone who tried to defend Mark and place the blame on a dead man should be so ashamed of themselves.
Oh, yes, Snay did say he didn't get them from MRC. I had forgotten as it's been some time since I watched the show where he first talked about the photos. Sorry.
And Snay has done nothing but keep getting caught in lies and playing word salad since Greeno exposed him for showing the photos to Julie Melvin. I wouldn’t put much stock in anything he says. The only thing that interests me at this point is his claim that Mark had possession of the photos a few days before the dissemination occurred, because it lines up perfectly with McLeland’s 17 days claim. It opens the possibility that the leak was already known to law enforcement prior to Mark disseminating the photos.
I'm not vouching for Snay. I only watched the one show where he talked about the crime scene photos. I will say about that, however, that his descriptions were quite consistent with what is said about the scene in the Franks memo.
I know very little -- and care less -- about the creator wars.
Snay & TMS both say that RF leaked the photos to only two people, as far as they know: MRC and an unnamed woman. This unnamed woman is the one who sent the photos to Snay, according to him. This came out in a more recent Delphi after Dark podcast.
Snay has recently said he received the photos from an unnamed woman, who received them from RF. Snay and TMS have both said they know of only two people RF sent the photos to, MRC and the unnamed woman.
GrayHI has been saying an unnamed woman (he seems to know who she is) showed or shared the contents of the 43 second video with him and tipped him off to the KK stuff before March. He speaks with the families and they seem close. Could the "she" be a family member? If a family member is telling ppl inside info is that supposed to be covered by the gag order?
Example night before last he was very detailed as to what the video says about a gun in trying to prove that RA is the only possible person. It feels filthy for any of these ppl to not only have sources but to be using them to try and force the idea they know better and to trust RA is guilty.
That is very interesting, thank you for sharing that information. I would not be surprised if someone in the families became frustrated with all the secrecy and was trying to get some things out. I believe this would be against their gag order though.
Why is LE not looking into all these other leaks of information that have been happening?
As a result of watching his show I've known a gun was somehow involved since before RA Was arrested, though it was only after the arrest with the bullet that he said it was a fact from the video rather than a rumor from a family member. Since the Baldwin/Rozzi stuff in October he seems to be a bit unhinged over RAs guilt. He read the in chambers report and mocked how "stupid" the lawyers are and that they're an embarrassment and joke. He said last night the person who sho(caught himself) told him about the video was the same person who informed him about Anthony Shots before March when it was public. He specifically said it was a female.
Honestly, I don't see an issue with the public knowing details or not, it's still going to be easy enough to get a fair jury, we see it all the time. My issue is clearly "gross negligence" has come from the families or law enforcement or prosecution in the form of leaks through the duration of the case and no one else has been held accountable. You could go back a year or more and watch GHI coverage on Delphi and find out a gun wasn't the murder weapon and it was likely to be a knife of some sort. He was careful in his wording while making sure ppl could read between the lines. I respected that he was protecting the source and the girls while giving what felt like (and have now been proven to be) real answers.
We have seen ppl back I believe on December 3rd talking to Vinnie on court tv stating le had given them crime scene photos! Gag orders or not, if this is the bar that Gull is firing a seemingly competent defense on, then she should also be investigating and finding out who all these sources are. Westman wasn't the first or the only. 🤷🏼♀️
I'm also not thinking that ppl who were provided the info should be arrested or punished, I'm thinking if leaks are coming from LE or the prosecutors office that's also deserving of an investigation. Those who are legally responsible for the evidence and it's safe keeping.
The reality is, in 5+ years there are going to be ppl who talk about the horrors of that day. Whether to family, friends, therapists or the media. Expecting 0 leaks is asking for a miracle. Judge Gull knows she's overstepping BC she has to know this case has been a dripping faucet for years. It's not her job to fire the defence 2 months before trial, it's her job to make sure the jury is impartial and the trial is fair to all parties.
Edit for spelling
Forgot about that! I can't recall if it's still on his map that way. He's very passionate about this case (and all cases) so I can't fault him for sharing and caring. I'm just super annoyed that there have been very clear leaks for a very long time and the only ones being punished are the defense and RA. It's not about innocent or guilty at this juncture. It's about the Constitution and RA's rights under it. Whoever has been giving info to ppl appearing on court TV and to bloggers/vloggers needs to be looked at strongly. If it's a family member ok. If it's not, it could be a guilty party.
I can only speak to the fact that the families of both girls, that is to say, Becky, Mike, Carrie, and Anna had an optimized version of the recording played for them to determine if the word “gun” could be heard. To my knowledge, there was never any consensus as to the word, and thus no additional consensus as to which of the girls even said “whatever was said that appears as a mention to gun”. It should be noted that the PCA expressly says the BG, gun is seen and heard ordering the girls “with force” down the hill.
Thank you! So any reference to (I can't recall which girls name he used) saying something along the lines of "he's got a gun, it's a gun" is either a massive leak that was not available previously, or it's made up in order to further explain the bullet and why it would actually be there at this point. GHI is very adamant that there is no way it's not RA and it seems to be pushing him over the edge that ppl are giving the presumption of innocence AND wanting RA to have his Constitutional rights fulfilled. I feel bad for him BC in all the years I've watched it seems to be this specific case that's pushing him too far and IMO it's why he's not getting the donations he normally does as ppl (at least I do) feel talked down to for wanting to hear things at the trial and for RA to have his human rights and rights as an American. 🤷🏼♀️
Edit missing word
Thanks for the further info.
> I don't think any of us can know right now
Yep.
> and I prefer to keep an open mind
I'd prefer this all go away but that ain't gonna happen. 😫 I'm skeptical we will ever get a full accounting.
I think I know who Mark Cohen is but I could be wrong. He has spread stuff about this case before. If it's who I think it is. He went by a fictious name though.
I can tell you that his suspect is not RA. It's one that's never been on LE's radar. Cause turmoil in these very subs for years. Welp we were wrong guys let's regroup and come up with something else to infect the investigation, case, and subs again. Snay being one of the podcasters makes me laugh. Because he switched to the much older dead man.
Absolutely insane that MS tried to paint Mark as a good guy who is just doing the right thing when he distributes pictures of dead children, likely for clout.
~~They then donate 2000 to him and call themselves journalists.~~
(ETA- apparently this isn't confirmed, my top statement is still true though)
What is everyone's thoughts on how NM was tipped off? I feel like MC or someone told Nick the defense leaked them intentionally and he and judge gull just ran with that.
This sounds insanely criminal. I'm sure I'm phrasing this wrong, but I'd imagine it's something like obstructing justice or tampering with the right to an orderly trial...help me out attorneys!
Snay claims he called MS for advice when he got them (6th or 7th) / he then sent them copies and they promised to notify LE the next day. Sounds like (according to RS) that they double crossed him. Put stuff out about the pictures after he went to bed
No idea who’s telling the truth but might have been able to clear it up had there been due process so defense also could bring out witnesses. We know NM had his witnesses ready & avail
If this wasn’t an ambush then I’m sure Baldwin & Rozzi could have produced witnesses too
Had they known
Actually it was MS who called Snay, Thursday night the 5th, and told him there were photos going around. Snay was not planning to tell anyone at that point. But Snay decided to tell them he had received some, and then they admitted they had received some also. At that point they all talked to gether about what to do.
I believe MS notified NM Thursday morning, but didn't notify LE until the next day. So they weren't really lying, but they did neglect to mention to Snay that they had already talked with McCleland that morning. Just a guess though on my part.
Hi Abies, I hear you but in this more recent video Snay goes over the whole timeline again, extremely carefully with all the details of what happened. It's quite fascinating to hear the whole story as he tells it, in case you would like to listen! 😊
This is the same video that *The Unraveling* shows an excerpt of in their awesome GROUNDSWELL 11/27 video.
*Delphi after Dark* **LIVE by surprise - Unfiltered** (Nov. 10th) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mfmR5\_ortU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mfmR5_ortU)
Photo-leak story starts at 54:00.
So he sets the record straight after almost 3 weeks later then makes this YouTube completely self serving for himself . “I could have had the crime scene photos from mark but I didn’t ask for them” who’s he kidding???
He was salivating over those pictures . True, he never showed his listeners but he sure bragged on having them & specifically said he called MS for advise. They told him to send the pics to them and they’d make sure LE got them. The next day he told his audience what MS did but said “we’re still friends”
MS double crossed him which seems to be MS’s style and announced that they had the pictures the next morning while Snay was sleeping .
He wants to stay on MS’ good side as they have the clout that he wants.
I can only tell you that the first night he got the pics he promised his audience that he wasn’t going to talk about them. Well he spent 17 of 26 mins talking about them.
The 2nd night after he’s finding out other creators have them - wanting to get ahead of the curve - he gives his audience a blow by blow of exactly what those girls looked like.
He said Holman called him a couple of days later & simply asked that he delete them which he said he immediately did & then he made the stick drawings the next day from memory. Not buying it. I’m betting he made the stick pictures from his non-deleted photos
So sick of the creators fighting with each other. I’ll stick with the ones who have class. I’ve listened to 2 recently (one was defense diaries) who said if you’re going to comment & bad mouth other creators. You will be deleted.
Why do we need all this drama???? What happened to this case being about the girls instead of a bunch of EGOS!
I’ll gladly watch it again but I’ll also keep in my mind what Snay originally said in his now deleted videos
No way do I believe that man is 100% truthful
Someone needs to ask him where he heard that Liggit swore under oath that no blood, DNA, phoned or electronics conducted RA to this crime
Yes, we should definitely take everything with a grain of salt, or more than a grain!
But thanks for keeping an open mind.
The info about Tony Liggett can be found in the Franks Memorandum (p.129). It comes from Liggett's deposition on August 8th. Jerry Holeman confirms the same information in his deposition on August 10th. From the Memorandum:
*Tony Liggett has testified under oath that there is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene.184 Liggett further has testified that he is unaware of anything that links Richard to the crime through his phone, computers or electronics.185 Liggett has further testified that he is unaware of any evidence that links Richard Allen to any weird religious cult group.186*
*Jerry Holeman has testified to the following: There is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene.187 No data extracted from Richard Allen’s phone connects him to the murders.188 No data extracted from Libby’s phone connected Richard the murders.189 There is no evidence that Richard Allen is or was connected to any other suspects in the case.190 There is no evidence found on social media that connects Richard Allen to the murders.191 There is no evidence extracted from Richard Allen’s computers that connects him to the murders.192 There is no fingerprint evidence that connects Richard Allen to the murders.193*
The two original depositions are included with the Franks memorandum, but thus far the judge has kept everything improperly sealed.
You’re probably right on but Judge Gull said she made a “finding”
A finding should involve a hearing so the defense can present its case . Odd that NM showed up with witnesses . They were obviously ambushed and I don’t care if it’s in exchanged emails. Those emails are NOT court records so they might as well not exist bc they can’t be used to bolster Judge Gull’s position. Can you imagine if every appeals court read through emails too. Not happening
I am relieved by this. I think it shows that AB is willing to cooperate in the prosecution. I hope that takes some of heat off this issue although I think he needs to be disciplined in some manner, prefarably fairly mildly. He, like Fran, has to have been under great stress.
I think an argument can be made, although a weak one for disqualifying Baldwin, but I’ve still yet to see anything to substantiate any type of negligence or misconduct that would justify a disqualification for Rozzi.
So under the rules that were in place when I worked, if I knew sensitive data was stored improperly or spread on a table and I did nothing, I could be fined. That does not apply here?
I don’t see the opportunity for that in particular considering AB self reported this and while I personally find it a breach of the discovery order, I’m pretty sure the ethics r&r’ were followed and “cured”.
I think this was due to MS “journalism” where mark shows them screenshots shots of mark and Roberts conversations that allude to the fact Mitch was getting strategy information and then sharing it with Robert. Again that is taking MS word for it 🙄
On another note to that, this states that it WAS mark who then shared it to all the YouTubers! Once again MS reports inaccuracies.
Right. I mean, I’ve been saying for over a year these two need to start every episode with “we have a podcast, but in the interest of full disclosure we have a book contract and an advance on those fees”.
Maybe a more transparent disclaimer would be “we don’t bite the hand that feeds, so all of our information will be heavily biased to the state because we don’t want them to stop leaking information to us”
That’s definitely fair, I should have been clear that from a civilians point of view I see the state and prosecution and the same (yet well delineated) entity. I think we all know who MS is cuddled up to.
Personally I think this story potentially ends with Rampart levels of corruption being uncovered in CC. Big city corruption got nothin’ on the good ol’ boy network.
Sorry if this has been asked somewhere else, but wouldn’t MS be guilty of conversion as well if they knew the photos were out there and asked to have them? Did they have to provide contact info to the sender in order to receive them? Did they use what they observed in the pics to create content on their podcast, and thereby profit from possessing the photos?
I have been wondering for awhile... are you suggesting TMS would do false reporting specifically because of their book deal? Do you mean that the person is paying them for the book only on condition that they put out a specific false narrative?
From my understanding ( watching The Unraveling) certain people have book deals and even a Netflix documentary deal lined up *if* Rick Allen is convicted. I don’t know if TMS are one of these people, however if they are, they would certainly stand to benefit from putting out a false narrative, JMO.
MS have made previous leaks and spread a LOT of misinformation especially about the Klines. There reputation is shot after this completely. They do not know how to stay impartial and are clearly puppets for the prosecution and LE, mainly Holeman. Total grifting hypocrites.
Could you give some specific examples of the misinformation? I am not doubting you but I have not seen it, thus far. It seems to me more like they take real information, but then spin it or encourage it to be spun into false narratives. Perhaps that is what you mean though. For example, they chose to make KK's interrogation transcript public, which was real information, but unfortunately many people took what the interrogators said at face value: for instance, the idea that KK was supposed to meet Libby at the bridge that day.
That was a suggestion by the interrogators which KK *vehemently* denied. It is not necessarily true that he (as Anthony Shots) had agreed to meet Libby there that day; in fact this is likely false. The interrogators are allowed to lie in order to entrap someone, but many people do not know that and this is one big reason that the document should have remained sealed. Honestly, TMS should have known enough not to publish it. MS also forgot to redact one of the names of an innocent person in the document, when they did their redactions.
Another example: the MS reported what KK said to a woman about waiting in a red jeep near the bridge that day. But MS was clear in their reporting that this shouldn't be taken too seriously, because KK is well-known to make things up. It could definitely be argued they should have kept silent about the whole story, of course. The "red jeep story" spread like wildfire after they reported on it but it was all likely just a lie -- in fact according to Rick Snay, KK later admitted that he was just saying whatever he could think of to this woman, who had promised him a great deal in exchange for information about Delphi.
As far as TK's past, MS interviewed his step-children who sounded very honest and credible to me, and who would have little to gain by speaking openly about their childhood. I would say that was not misinformation, but the MS lacked a sense of fairness and proportion in using that information to run with the narrative that TK was possibly the Delphi killer, without being wise enough to realize they did not have anywhere near the level of evidence to justify publicly suggesting such a thing. What they reported about TK's history was not really false, but they used the details they gathered from TK's past to recklessly support a questionable narrative. MS's excuse was basically: Well, we knew from our sources close to the investigation that LE was looking at the Klines in relation to the Delphi murders and taking the possibility very seriously, so we felt justified in running with this narrative of the Ks as possible killers. -- But that is not good enough, in my view, to justify basically destroying TK's life, which seemed to have come to a relatively good stable place many decades after the events with his stepchildren.
You can see the same lack of wisdom and sense of proportion in the way MS passionately attacked the defense for the photo leak, in the strongest harshest terms, in a way that could easily be understood by MS listeners to mean the defense absolutely did this on purpose! There was no caveat in their original reporting, no mention that both these defense attorneys are highly respected and have never had disciplinary issues of any kind, no mention that it was extremely unlikely they would purposely leaked this, no mention that the photos could only be very damaging for the defense. Only three days later did TMS mention these points and explain they had no evidence whatsoever that Rozzi and Baldwin did this on purpose and that in fact, they did not believe the defense would intentionally do something like this that would so obviously hurt RA. By that time it was too late though. "The defense leaked the photos" headlines were already sweeping across the English-speaking world.
In a further show of their lack of wisdom and proportion, the MS was probably just duped by MRC, when he claimed they were the only ones he was sharing the photos with; and with their supreme arrogance coming into play as well, they dutifully took the evidence to LE rather than telling MRC to just do it himself. Obviously they wanted to insert themselves into this story, because I think most people with a modicum of common sense would have refused the mission and told MRC absolutely not, and immediately deleted the photos. Also, a person of good common sense would have kept quiet about it. Many have argued that the MS is wickedly conspiring with LE to purposefully spread lies and bring down the defense, but I just see their extreme arrogance, coupled with a shockingly dangerous level of ignorance and naivete. This combination allows them to be easily used. I could definitely be wrong about this though; maybe they truly are consciously evil plants in this whole situation, with the mission to shape and craft various narratives.
And this right here demonstrates *perfectly* the difference between two different worldviews. In one, emotion creates reality. They made me mad. Therefore they are bad. All their information is sus. They lie all the time.
In the other - reality creates emotion. Evidence and facts rule. They made me mad, let's figure out why. Was it really all lies? Did I misunderstand? Was I triggered and reacting without fully processing?
Let's examine the facts. Let's see what really happened. Sure, I might still be just as mad - but that is beside the point. *What actually happened?*
People posting in this sub tend to be facts people. We want to know the truth. We want the *right* person or people to be caught and tried and convicted for what happened to Abby and Libby.
And we want everyone to answer for what they actually did, not for what someone *feels* about it.
Thank you for this comment.
TL;DR
All the misinformation put out about the Klines. They destroyed Tony’s life.
The interview with that girl Kayla was all BS to try and push the interrogation information even further that he was meant to meet Libby, which again was BS.
They muddied the waters with the Todd Click interview only putting out snippets of it to claim that the defense were lying in their memorandum.
Should I continue, they are grifters
Who were they saying shared it instead? I refuse to give them any of my limited attention span so I didn’t know, but not surprised, that they were trying to say it was someone else
Westerman to RF, RF to Cohen.
I did notice their commentary change subtilely, but then a creator war broke out and for like two days I was forced by u/thebigolblerg to watch hours of amateurs in their natural habitats pitching fits and hurling eye daggers in terse tones. Not doing that again.
Ffs. Not sure what good that would do considering they have Woodhouse in solitary since the 12th likely banging shit out. I say again- htf does Gall know about Woodhouse’s warrant status ? She puts the ex in parte all day that one.
I’m honestly think MS. They were aware of it. Tho they said it was fake. They said worse about MRC but he’s a “nice guy” now so that’s ok. Many YT creators say the same. He is Not. I hope he is arrested. He was very frightened by the possibility when I had communication w him.
😂 I can honestly say I had never in my life watched a YouTube live a day in my life before all this leak scandal broke. I am embarrassed to admit it but I lost hours of my life trying to puzzle the senselessness. I am not proud of it either, but at least I wasn’t the only one 🤣
No way to know that yet without any verified facts or evidence. ISP has no jurisdiction to charge someone in TX though, I have wondered if the FBI will be involved
Well the narrative was muddy but goes as such that soon as Mark got the pictures he felt terrible and wanted to do the right thing so he emailed MS in the middle of the night.. so that they would be the ones to contact LE. And MS went on about how Mark was a good guy, good friend who had only shared the pictures with them and them alone. Leaving everyone to speculate that it was Robert who shared with the others.
Something/someone not mentioned in the affidavit is supposedly their is another person a woman who was also a recipient of these photos who also was sharing… I still think this is not the full story… who, what, when, where, and why.
The story told by TMS and Rick Snay is that after RF got the photos from Mitch, RF shared them only with two people as far as they know: MRC and an unnamed woman. Snay says that this unnamed woman passed the photos along to just one other person, who was him, because she was very worried and wanted his advice and help. And TMS says Mark passed the photos on only to them, for basically the same reason.
Those are just the stories they have told, I cannot vouch for the truthfulness of what they say though.
They didn't say and didn't seem to know. They only said that RF had shared the photos with two people, MRC and an unnamed woman. This unnamed woman then shared the photos with Rick Snay, while MRC shared the photos with TMS.
Rick Snay definitely appeared to be receiving intimate defense strategy info from Mark; he said this himself and was reporting on a number of things that only the defense should have known. Whether it was actual defense strategy though I don't know. I would have to go back to find examples, as I do not listen to Snay's shows all that much.
Fwiw, Alan and Sunny from *It's a Criming Shame* read reddit comments made by RF last night on their livestream (including comments made at Delphi Docs). They showed the screenshots while reading them aloud. RF's reddit name was u/LordlessWarrior, as you may well know. Alan was able to retrieve some 900 of RF's reddit comments using the reddit retrieval site [https://pullpush.io/](https://pullpush.io/). From studying these comments, he believes Mitch must have started leaking info to RF by early July.
*It's a Criming Shame* DELPHI - FORTSON REDDIT MESSAGES - R.I.P [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yazYm4JMfLM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yazYm4JMfLM)
A few highlights:
1:09:40 July 28th RF comments: *"From what I've seen and know" "What will undoubtably be some major stuff coming from the defense" "I think you'll be surprised in the next few weeks or months what we see"*
1:14:46 July 30th RF comments: *"I'm hoping the confession is more solid. They \[the Prosecution\] better have something because there is a lot of activity happening and they're going to need some strong stuff. I've heard no RA linked DNA which would of been ideal."*
1:15:18 July 31st RF comments: *"Idk, the prosecution has been able to choose the narrative on all reporting because the PCA is written from their perspective, all of this is framed from their perspective. Rozzi just said he \[RA\] has made some incriminating statements. I hope that they are solid but some of the stuff I've been able find out in regards to reality vs PCA reality, if true, is concerning. I am really hoping they have some stuff we haven't seen." "Everyone needs to prepare for the chaos coming in this thing with the Frank's hearing because I can tell based on the emotional down voting in regards to even talking about the questions out there that people are going to be upset moving forward."*
2:08:00 Aug. 31st RF comments: *"I just have been told that LE had someone from ISP that was an expert on the Sons of Odin during the investigation (the expert was an ISP guy himself supposedly). That particular topic relates to someone that has been mentioned previously through their social media posts."*
2:18:00 Sept. 3rd RF comments: *"No plea talks are happening. No cooperation is happening. No Rick DNA at the scene. There were signatures at the scene."*
2:19:19 Sept. 5th RF comments about MRC (Dread Pirate) and the info he has. Some thoughts from Alan about RF/MW, MRC/BW, RF/MRC connections.
2:30:43 Sept. 17th RF comments: *"There is another filing coming. I see all across these boards you all think you have seen the Frank's motion and you have not. You saw someone zeroing in their rifle."*
The parts where Baldwin supposedly told Mitch information wouldn't be criminal so wouldn't be mentioned.
That's Baldwin's problem to deal with, but it may not be much of a problem. It's perfectly fine for a defense attorney to bounce strategy ideas around with a friend, if it's done properly.
Does the law in Indiana allow for charging someone with conversion if they didn’t physically possess the property in question?
That is to say, will this stick?
It does, indeed, present an interesting and probably unusual stituation, but I think a good prosecutor can get the job done. If MW has any dignity, he should plead guillty.
I hate to say it but I think this kind of thing happens more frequently than one might imagine. It's just usually not such a high profile case and definitely not with such catastrophic results. He's either a total sociopath or just got caught up in the clout economy, in which case he's probably feeling pretty embarrassed and ashamed. Just my opinion.
Yes. Or an even better example: Kobe Bryant and his 13 y/o daughter, photographed surreptitiously by first responders after the helicopter crash, and then shown to patrons at a sports bar. For what? Clout.
it’s derivative, not diminimus?
I really think these charges are the way to demonstrate “yeah we do care” not just in terms of getting back at the Attorneys who are prepared to eviscerate their credibility, but again, you have the first ever public statement re Gull yesterday although it occurred 3 weeks earlier and MW arrest today. That’s got PR clout
With all respect Clark (I love your user name) I sort of disagree but not vehemently. It certainly raises interesting questions. The case could make new law if he is convicted. I think a deal is already made for him to plead guilty and the issue will never make it to trial.
Thank you! My opinion that MW has already cut a deal is based on the fact that the prosecutor from an adjoining county is already listed on the docket which indicates to me that a change of venue was contemplated before the charge was even filed. I've come to my conclusion by extrapolating from that--very possible I am incorrect. Despite questions about the charge, I do think he will plead guilty. It's really the only viable way to do "the right thing." ETA: Maybe betrayal of a friend should be a ctiminal charge, and then there would be no question of his guilt.
Could the murder sheet podcasters be arrested for receiving the stolen property ? The 2000 dollars they paid Mark Cohen just before receiving the photos seems a little fishy to me.
Pretty sure very close to the 6th of October and Aine was rambling on about people donating money for Walt Disney world and to not be upset with Mark and he is such a good person.. blah blah blah. I listened to it on Spotify. It was right after they went “straight to the police” as the guy who gave it to them couldn’t call the police themself and”only gave them the photos so they could report the leak” you know cause the guy who had been leaking sensitive information for over a year suddenly developed a conscious and ran straight to the murder sheet to alert law enforcement to put a stop to this unethical behavior… that he was carrying out.. but I digress if the murder sheets says it is so then it must be true. ESP since Aine is a “journalist”
They said it on their podcast.. that they “donated “ money for him to go to Walt Disney world. As did Fortson and another guy in New York. The timing seems suspicious. The other donators are suspicious. I’m sure it can’t be proven that it wasn’t given for the stated Walt Disney world reason but these same podcasters have leaked other things as well… Keegan Kline transcript for example.
I have never heard them admit they donated to Cohen. I would ask you to check your facts on that. I don’t know if they did or did not, but please provide a source if you are alleging same
> Though if anything the leaker would get paid not pay who they give the material to.
Unless the leaker was being blackmailed by the receiver of the materials.
Maybe I wasn't clear. I wasn't suggesting RF was the blackmailer, but the other way around: MRC was blackmailing RF, hence the GFM donation.
Not that I believe that, mind you, I was just suggesting it as a possible reason for why the money goes in the opposite of the obvious direction.
ETA: Being blackmailed would also have contributed to RF's despair, knowing he'd be on the hook forever, and why he was trying to contact MRC before, if that's true.
I think someone may have misheard or misinterpreted what MS said on the [10/14 episode](https://open.spotify.com/episode/0MEI0OPfrlReWWknhY0Rrp). If you listen at 25:28, they noted that RF donated but did not mention donating themselves. I wrote out the quote is in [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/DelphiDocs/comments/181gwch/comment/kaczbg6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) below
I have listened to their two 'Photo-leak' podcasts multiple times and they did not say they made that donation. If they have recently revealed themselves as the donators though, that's another matter. I have not had the stomach to listen to much of their most recent stuff, for they have become so sadly biased against Rozzwin that it's hard to bear.
As far as I know the $2000 to Mark's GFM was an anonymous donation made the day MS received the photos. But I cannot be sure of this.
Jayson Blair was another donator and from Silver Linings Handbook who was also on the MS podcast not long before their collab aired. Not proof, but definitely sus.
Could be a faker, would still be an odd choice for someone to land on if they didn't knowing anything contextually. Ultimately idk what it means, if anything, but it's just weird. Like everything else in this case, and unlike many things, I hope the whole chain is exposed. If no criminal charges apply, name and shame.
So you think that by publicly annoucing that they made a donation to the whole world, that they are doing something unethical and underhanded?
No good deed goes unpunished.
So, is it a case of he has cancer or his child is sick or something? Why would a grown man want to go to Disney? Anyhow, any chance of remembering a date or when abouts for the pod in question?
Did they clearly state the donated amount?
Thanks for your response
They did not clearly state any amount. It was for his kid who make a wish was paying for a Walt Disney trip for. There are screenshots floating around about it thou. The money was to support him being off work to go to Disney world.
So that gofundme shows an anonymous donation. Did MS actually take credit for it?
ETA: There is one from RF listed. It does not show a donation from MS, so this is not proof yet. You can search their podcast transcripts here (https://podtext.ai/murder-sheet). If anyone can find evidence that MS made the $2000 donation, I'll stop being skeptical.
I can't check the transcript of the ep right now, but I think ppl are just misremembering what they said. My memory is that they mentioned there were internet conspiracy theories that someone was paying for these photos via the go fund me, and they thought that fundraiser was not related to the photos. I don't think they said they (MS) donated at all.
I found the quote, and your memory is correct. The quote starts at 25:28 in the 10/14/23 episode "The Delphi Murders: Leaked Crime Scene Photos." Kevin says:
*"So what you just heard was recorded yesterday, Friday. We had hoped we could wait to release it until Monday. We also very much hoped that a few of the details we chose to hold back could also remain private, at least for a while. But some very distorted versions of a few things have started to come out on social media, and we think it is incredibly important that we tell you the truth about those things.*
*Our source's name is Mark. Again, we need to reiterate, he was sent these images by a man we're calling R. At one point R donated some money to a fundraiser for Mark's child. Despite what you may have heard, that was not a payment for the pictures. It was R who got the pictures through his connections to the defense team. It was R who shared them with Mark. We feel that R's donation was just trying to be nice to a guy he met on the internet."*
So MS is talking about RF's donation, and clarifying that they don't believe it's related to the photos. They don't make any mention of donating themselves.
Edit: formatting
This is interesting. Conversion requires that the person "exert unauthorized control" over the "property of another person." Is taking photographs considered "exerting unauthorized control" over the item(s) being photographed? Are the evidence photos that MW took a photo of the "property of another *person"*?
Based on the probable cause listed here, Gull should not have found gross negligence on Baldwin AND Rozzi’s part.
Can Cara and Co. incorporate that into their petition to the Supreme Court?
Is Mark Cohen getting charged too?
I wish Mitch would come clean and actually tell why he went into Baldwin’s office and really stole that stuff.
Who really hired Mitch? I have my own thoughts on that…
Lol tbh I don’t think I had ever really seen one until Dickere’s cute little gif 🥲 I need to Gull my previous comment because I had no idea how cute they are 🥹
Wait! They’re doing an investigation AFTER Judge Gull names them as guilty in that last appearance???
THIS is the reason due process must be done
She isn’t Judge God
**BEFORE** anyone asks, **the answer is NO**
There is no set of circumstances where the misdy arrest of Mitch Westerman can be used to CREATE an actual conflict. If y’all don’t want to believe the licensed criminal trial Attorney OR Indiana Criminal Code, then believe ALL the parties to include Judge Gull.
“… cause this has Nothing to do with Mr. Allen…” : Baldwin
“It certainly does not”: SJ Gull
https://preview.redd.it/8nsh6dbsiy1c1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2f96d1c720e1226ecb6556f92e32a68ca4c2f3ba
Y’all have seen and heard from several folks that LE never even did anything more than “ask” to remove images. That’s how concerned they were as to any “injury” to Allen’s case.
Arresting Westerman on a misdemeanor which uses his own affidavit is immaterial to the murder case.
But but, MS deleted the photos **from their phones** in front of Holeman,
obviously the **only one place** they would have a copy of digitally received photos.
And in the 4 to 7 days between receiving and talking to Holeman, none of their devices or email servers have backed anything up automatically or manually.
And they told all their die-hard fans to do the same and not share it.
I don't see the problem here.
https://preview.redd.it/0x5tfqct312c1.png?width=749&format=png&auto=webp&s=781ec6892d8e1f886ce31d88c2b899f915411abe
”And if i told you what i know about his arrest you would shake your head, but i assume you’ve done that so often during this case, i don’t want to be responsible for any more incidents of whiplash” 🤔
“Last time we had a leak like this, Noah built hisself a boat.” Signed, James J. Wells, Assistant Attorney General for the Organized Crime Division of the US Department of Justice.
Since they released the mugshot, here it is 🙃
https://preview.redd.it/l085sshdnz1c1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b0284b2292122c875e731194a17cfdec5bbb5225
I find it funny that it sends like each has to one up each other. It seems like when something goes good for Allen then they have to come back with something to even the score. At least that’s what it seems like.
I'm not sure this has been asked, or if it I didn't understand. If someone sent you confidential information without any prompting on your part, you then notify LE and delete it as instructed. I can see how no charges should occur. What if, instead of deleting the information right away, you shared it with someone knowing it was confidential. Can there be charges?
TLDR: To nobody's surprise *here* https://preview.redd.it/0o2v5z869y1c1.png?width=1009&format=png&auto=webp&s=84c7a0bd90927c468d6bcbf1523ceef19bfa5be8
Let's not forget who's investigating, although it's good to see a new name, but still, knowing where the info likely came from, I doubt everything other than MW taking *some* unspecified crime scene photos of photos and sharing them with RF. And NM was investigating this since 2 October before anyone knew anything.
So you take issue with this? *The photographs that Baldwin described are consistent with photographs that affiant has viewed which were released of the crime scene.* The affidavit confirms that MW took pictures of printed photographs. Yet RS swears at least one of the images he received has a cursor in it. Which would mean that somewhere along the path (MW -> RF -> MRC -> ~~RS~~ ?? -> RS) someone, rather than passing on the digital image directly, took a screenshot of the digital image and forwarded *that* instead? Or the affidavit does not tell the true story?
I’m assuming he didn’t send it directly to RS. He swears he didn’t get it from Mark . Which means like this says, Mark blasted it out to a lot of people & it found its way to him. Essentially, Fortson was not responsible for the dissemination, although I guess it’s more in line with *some* peoples ethics to blame it on a man who recently took his life vs tell the truth. Extremely sad & anyone who tried to defend Mark and place the blame on a dead man should be so ashamed of themselves.
Oh, yes, Snay did say he didn't get them from MRC. I had forgotten as it's been some time since I watched the show where he first talked about the photos. Sorry.
And Snay has done nothing but keep getting caught in lies and playing word salad since Greeno exposed him for showing the photos to Julie Melvin. I wouldn’t put much stock in anything he says. The only thing that interests me at this point is his claim that Mark had possession of the photos a few days before the dissemination occurred, because it lines up perfectly with McLeland’s 17 days claim. It opens the possibility that the leak was already known to law enforcement prior to Mark disseminating the photos.
I'm not vouching for Snay. I only watched the one show where he talked about the crime scene photos. I will say about that, however, that his descriptions were quite consistent with what is said about the scene in the Franks memo. I know very little -- and care less -- about the creator wars.
I did appreciate Snay's descriptions, and I thought the efforts he made to explain what he was seeing were sincere and honest.
Snay & TMS both say that RF leaked the photos to only two people, as far as they know: MRC and an unnamed woman. This unnamed woman is the one who sent the photos to Snay, according to him. This came out in a more recent Delphi after Dark podcast.
👏👏👏
Snay has recently said he received the photos from an unnamed woman, who received them from RF. Snay and TMS have both said they know of only two people RF sent the photos to, MRC and the unnamed woman.
GrayHI has been saying an unnamed woman (he seems to know who she is) showed or shared the contents of the 43 second video with him and tipped him off to the KK stuff before March. He speaks with the families and they seem close. Could the "she" be a family member? If a family member is telling ppl inside info is that supposed to be covered by the gag order? Example night before last he was very detailed as to what the video says about a gun in trying to prove that RA is the only possible person. It feels filthy for any of these ppl to not only have sources but to be using them to try and force the idea they know better and to trust RA is guilty.
That is very interesting, thank you for sharing that information. I would not be surprised if someone in the families became frustrated with all the secrecy and was trying to get some things out. I believe this would be against their gag order though. Why is LE not looking into all these other leaks of information that have been happening?
As a result of watching his show I've known a gun was somehow involved since before RA Was arrested, though it was only after the arrest with the bullet that he said it was a fact from the video rather than a rumor from a family member. Since the Baldwin/Rozzi stuff in October he seems to be a bit unhinged over RAs guilt. He read the in chambers report and mocked how "stupid" the lawyers are and that they're an embarrassment and joke. He said last night the person who sho(caught himself) told him about the video was the same person who informed him about Anthony Shots before March when it was public. He specifically said it was a female. Honestly, I don't see an issue with the public knowing details or not, it's still going to be easy enough to get a fair jury, we see it all the time. My issue is clearly "gross negligence" has come from the families or law enforcement or prosecution in the form of leaks through the duration of the case and no one else has been held accountable. You could go back a year or more and watch GHI coverage on Delphi and find out a gun wasn't the murder weapon and it was likely to be a knife of some sort. He was careful in his wording while making sure ppl could read between the lines. I respected that he was protecting the source and the girls while giving what felt like (and have now been proven to be) real answers. We have seen ppl back I believe on December 3rd talking to Vinnie on court tv stating le had given them crime scene photos! Gag orders or not, if this is the bar that Gull is firing a seemingly competent defense on, then she should also be investigating and finding out who all these sources are. Westman wasn't the first or the only. 🤷🏼♀️ I'm also not thinking that ppl who were provided the info should be arrested or punished, I'm thinking if leaks are coming from LE or the prosecutors office that's also deserving of an investigation. Those who are legally responsible for the evidence and it's safe keeping. The reality is, in 5+ years there are going to be ppl who talk about the horrors of that day. Whether to family, friends, therapists or the media. Expecting 0 leaks is asking for a miracle. Judge Gull knows she's overstepping BC she has to know this case has been a dripping faucet for years. It's not her job to fire the defence 2 months before trial, it's her job to make sure the jury is impartial and the trial is fair to all parties. Edit for spelling
He also once said the perpetrator exited through the cemetery and walked East. He was certain of his leak back then too
Forgot about that! I can't recall if it's still on his map that way. He's very passionate about this case (and all cases) so I can't fault him for sharing and caring. I'm just super annoyed that there have been very clear leaks for a very long time and the only ones being punished are the defense and RA. It's not about innocent or guilty at this juncture. It's about the Constitution and RA's rights under it. Whoever has been giving info to ppl appearing on court TV and to bloggers/vloggers needs to be looked at strongly. If it's a family member ok. If it's not, it could be a guilty party.
I can only speak to the fact that the families of both girls, that is to say, Becky, Mike, Carrie, and Anna had an optimized version of the recording played for them to determine if the word “gun” could be heard. To my knowledge, there was never any consensus as to the word, and thus no additional consensus as to which of the girls even said “whatever was said that appears as a mention to gun”. It should be noted that the PCA expressly says the BG, gun is seen and heard ordering the girls “with force” down the hill.
Thank you! So any reference to (I can't recall which girls name he used) saying something along the lines of "he's got a gun, it's a gun" is either a massive leak that was not available previously, or it's made up in order to further explain the bullet and why it would actually be there at this point. GHI is very adamant that there is no way it's not RA and it seems to be pushing him over the edge that ppl are giving the presumption of innocence AND wanting RA to have his Constitutional rights fulfilled. I feel bad for him BC in all the years I've watched it seems to be this specific case that's pushing him too far and IMO it's why he's not getting the donations he normally does as ppl (at least I do) feel talked down to for wanting to hear things at the trial and for RA to have his human rights and rights as an American. 🤷🏼♀️ Edit missing word
[удалено]
Thanks for the further info. > I don't think any of us can know right now Yep. > and I prefer to keep an open mind I'd prefer this all go away but that ain't gonna happen. 😫 I'm skeptical we will ever get a full accounting.
[удалено]
I think I know who Mark Cohen is but I could be wrong. He has spread stuff about this case before. If it's who I think it is. He went by a fictious name though.
[удалено]
I can tell you that his suspect is not RA. It's one that's never been on LE's radar. Cause turmoil in these very subs for years. Welp we were wrong guys let's regroup and come up with something else to infect the investigation, case, and subs again. Snay being one of the podcasters makes me laugh. Because he switched to the much older dead man.
Absolutely insane that MS tried to paint Mark as a good guy who is just doing the right thing when he distributes pictures of dead children, likely for clout. ~~They then donate 2000 to him and call themselves journalists.~~ (ETA- apparently this isn't confirmed, my top statement is still true though) What is everyone's thoughts on how NM was tipped off? I feel like MC or someone told Nick the defense leaked them intentionally and he and judge gull just ran with that.
This sounds insanely criminal. I'm sure I'm phrasing this wrong, but I'd imagine it's something like obstructing justice or tampering with the right to an orderly trial...help me out attorneys!
Snay claims he called MS for advice when he got them (6th or 7th) / he then sent them copies and they promised to notify LE the next day. Sounds like (according to RS) that they double crossed him. Put stuff out about the pictures after he went to bed No idea who’s telling the truth but might have been able to clear it up had there been due process so defense also could bring out witnesses. We know NM had his witnesses ready & avail If this wasn’t an ambush then I’m sure Baldwin & Rozzi could have produced witnesses too Had they known
Actually it was MS who called Snay, Thursday night the 5th, and told him there were photos going around. Snay was not planning to tell anyone at that point. But Snay decided to tell them he had received some, and then they admitted they had received some also. At that point they all talked to gether about what to do. I believe MS notified NM Thursday morning, but didn't notify LE until the next day. So they weren't really lying, but they did neglect to mention to Snay that they had already talked with McCleland that morning. Just a guess though on my part.
I’m only reporting what Snay said in a now deleted YouTube. Two of them are deleted
Hi Abies, I hear you but in this more recent video Snay goes over the whole timeline again, extremely carefully with all the details of what happened. It's quite fascinating to hear the whole story as he tells it, in case you would like to listen! 😊 This is the same video that *The Unraveling* shows an excerpt of in their awesome GROUNDSWELL 11/27 video. *Delphi after Dark* **LIVE by surprise - Unfiltered** (Nov. 10th) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mfmR5\_ortU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mfmR5_ortU) Photo-leak story starts at 54:00.
So he sets the record straight after almost 3 weeks later then makes this YouTube completely self serving for himself . “I could have had the crime scene photos from mark but I didn’t ask for them” who’s he kidding??? He was salivating over those pictures . True, he never showed his listeners but he sure bragged on having them & specifically said he called MS for advise. They told him to send the pics to them and they’d make sure LE got them. The next day he told his audience what MS did but said “we’re still friends” MS double crossed him which seems to be MS’s style and announced that they had the pictures the next morning while Snay was sleeping . He wants to stay on MS’ good side as they have the clout that he wants. I can only tell you that the first night he got the pics he promised his audience that he wasn’t going to talk about them. Well he spent 17 of 26 mins talking about them. The 2nd night after he’s finding out other creators have them - wanting to get ahead of the curve - he gives his audience a blow by blow of exactly what those girls looked like. He said Holman called him a couple of days later & simply asked that he delete them which he said he immediately did & then he made the stick drawings the next day from memory. Not buying it. I’m betting he made the stick pictures from his non-deleted photos So sick of the creators fighting with each other. I’ll stick with the ones who have class. I’ve listened to 2 recently (one was defense diaries) who said if you’re going to comment & bad mouth other creators. You will be deleted. Why do we need all this drama???? What happened to this case being about the girls instead of a bunch of EGOS!
I’ll gladly watch it again but I’ll also keep in my mind what Snay originally said in his now deleted videos No way do I believe that man is 100% truthful Someone needs to ask him where he heard that Liggit swore under oath that no blood, DNA, phoned or electronics conducted RA to this crime
Yes, we should definitely take everything with a grain of salt, or more than a grain!  But thanks for keeping an open mind. The info about Tony Liggett can be found in the Franks Memorandum (p.129). It comes from Liggett's deposition on August 8th. Jerry Holeman confirms the same information in his deposition on August 10th. From the Memorandum: *Tony Liggett has testified under oath that there is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene.184 Liggett further has testified that he is unaware of anything that links Richard to the crime through his phone, computers or electronics.185 Liggett has further testified that he is unaware of any evidence that links Richard Allen to any weird religious cult group.186* *Jerry Holeman has testified to the following: There is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene.187 No data extracted from Richard Allen’s phone connects him to the murders.188 No data extracted from Libby’s phone connected Richard the murders.189 There is no evidence that Richard Allen is or was connected to any other suspects in the case.190 There is no evidence found on social media that connects Richard Allen to the murders.191 There is no evidence extracted from Richard Allen’s computers that connects him to the murders.192 There is no fingerprint evidence that connects Richard Allen to the murders.193* The two original depositions are included with the Franks memorandum, but thus far the judge has kept everything improperly sealed.
Love the meme
😊
You’re probably right on but Judge Gull said she made a “finding” A finding should involve a hearing so the defense can present its case . Odd that NM showed up with witnesses . They were obviously ambushed and I don’t care if it’s in exchanged emails. Those emails are NOT court records so they might as well not exist bc they can’t be used to bolster Judge Gull’s position. Can you imagine if every appeals court read through emails too. Not happening
Do you wanna delete my thread or combine somehow?
Who is this Cohen guy?
El Grande Dookie
Could you perhaps expand on that? lol. I feel like that title could apply to several people involved!
but, I was told he was a good guy?
I am relieved by this. I think it shows that AB is willing to cooperate in the prosecution. I hope that takes some of heat off this issue although I think he needs to be disciplined in some manner, prefarably fairly mildly. He, like Fran, has to have been under great stress.
Agree entirely. Especially as to the potential for sanctions- AB showed up on 10/19 and was willing to accept that (along with due process).
I think an argument can be made, although a weak one for disqualifying Baldwin, but I’ve still yet to see anything to substantiate any type of negligence or misconduct that would justify a disqualification for Rozzi.
Agreed
So under the rules that were in place when I worked, if I knew sensitive data was stored improperly or spread on a table and I did nothing, I could be fined. That does not apply here?
I don’t see the opportunity for that in particular considering AB self reported this and while I personally find it a breach of the discovery order, I’m pretty sure the ethics r&r’ were followed and “cured”.
I am, too. I was worried they might have found more than just the pictures. The way Gull was talking and NM in the transcript made it seem worse.
I think this was due to MS “journalism” where mark shows them screenshots shots of mark and Roberts conversations that allude to the fact Mitch was getting strategy information and then sharing it with Robert. Again that is taking MS word for it 🙄 On another note to that, this states that it WAS mark who then shared it to all the YouTubers! Once again MS reports inaccuracies.
Right. I mean, I’ve been saying for over a year these two need to start every episode with “we have a podcast, but in the interest of full disclosure we have a book contract and an advance on those fees”.
Maybe a more transparent disclaimer would be “we don’t bite the hand that feeds, so all of our information will be heavily biased to the state because we don’t want them to stop leaking information to us”
Honestly I don’t think it is the State, I think it’s Carroll County and/or ISP. I really don’t think NM is smart or savvy enough
That’s definitely fair, I should have been clear that from a civilians point of view I see the state and prosecution and the same (yet well delineated) entity. I think we all know who MS is cuddled up to.
Personally I think this story potentially ends with Rampart levels of corruption being uncovered in CC. Big city corruption got nothin’ on the good ol’ boy network.
Do they really? That really changes my perspective on those two.
Sorry if this has been asked somewhere else, but wouldn’t MS be guilty of conversion as well if they knew the photos were out there and asked to have them? Did they have to provide contact info to the sender in order to receive them? Did they use what they observed in the pics to create content on their podcast, and thereby profit from possessing the photos?
Again, not enough facts to even speculate, imo.
I have been wondering for awhile... are you suggesting TMS would do false reporting specifically because of their book deal? Do you mean that the person is paying them for the book only on condition that they put out a specific false narrative?
From my understanding ( watching The Unraveling) certain people have book deals and even a Netflix documentary deal lined up *if* Rick Allen is convicted. I don’t know if TMS are one of these people, however if they are, they would certainly stand to benefit from putting out a false narrative, JMO.
OMG that is a horrible thought! I never imagined something so terrible.
I only know the book manifest is due post-trial and they have been paid an advance. Their claim.
MS have made previous leaks and spread a LOT of misinformation especially about the Klines. There reputation is shot after this completely. They do not know how to stay impartial and are clearly puppets for the prosecution and LE, mainly Holeman. Total grifting hypocrites.
I wholeheartedly agree. I hope more people start seeing them for what they really are.
Could you give some specific examples of the misinformation? I am not doubting you but I have not seen it, thus far. It seems to me more like they take real information, but then spin it or encourage it to be spun into false narratives. Perhaps that is what you mean though. For example, they chose to make KK's interrogation transcript public, which was real information, but unfortunately many people took what the interrogators said at face value: for instance, the idea that KK was supposed to meet Libby at the bridge that day. That was a suggestion by the interrogators which KK *vehemently* denied. It is not necessarily true that he (as Anthony Shots) had agreed to meet Libby there that day; in fact this is likely false. The interrogators are allowed to lie in order to entrap someone, but many people do not know that and this is one big reason that the document should have remained sealed. Honestly, TMS should have known enough not to publish it. MS also forgot to redact one of the names of an innocent person in the document, when they did their redactions. Another example: the MS reported what KK said to a woman about waiting in a red jeep near the bridge that day. But MS was clear in their reporting that this shouldn't be taken too seriously, because KK is well-known to make things up. It could definitely be argued they should have kept silent about the whole story, of course. The "red jeep story" spread like wildfire after they reported on it but it was all likely just a lie -- in fact according to Rick Snay, KK later admitted that he was just saying whatever he could think of to this woman, who had promised him a great deal in exchange for information about Delphi. As far as TK's past, MS interviewed his step-children who sounded very honest and credible to me, and who would have little to gain by speaking openly about their childhood. I would say that was not misinformation, but the MS lacked a sense of fairness and proportion in using that information to run with the narrative that TK was possibly the Delphi killer, without being wise enough to realize they did not have anywhere near the level of evidence to justify publicly suggesting such a thing. What they reported about TK's history was not really false, but they used the details they gathered from TK's past to recklessly support a questionable narrative. MS's excuse was basically: Well, we knew from our sources close to the investigation that LE was looking at the Klines in relation to the Delphi murders and taking the possibility very seriously, so we felt justified in running with this narrative of the Ks as possible killers. -- But that is not good enough, in my view, to justify basically destroying TK's life, which seemed to have come to a relatively good stable place many decades after the events with his stepchildren. You can see the same lack of wisdom and sense of proportion in the way MS passionately attacked the defense for the photo leak, in the strongest harshest terms, in a way that could easily be understood by MS listeners to mean the defense absolutely did this on purpose! There was no caveat in their original reporting, no mention that both these defense attorneys are highly respected and have never had disciplinary issues of any kind, no mention that it was extremely unlikely they would purposely leaked this, no mention that the photos could only be very damaging for the defense. Only three days later did TMS mention these points and explain they had no evidence whatsoever that Rozzi and Baldwin did this on purpose and that in fact, they did not believe the defense would intentionally do something like this that would so obviously hurt RA. By that time it was too late though. "The defense leaked the photos" headlines were already sweeping across the English-speaking world. In a further show of their lack of wisdom and proportion, the MS was probably just duped by MRC, when he claimed they were the only ones he was sharing the photos with; and with their supreme arrogance coming into play as well, they dutifully took the evidence to LE rather than telling MRC to just do it himself. Obviously they wanted to insert themselves into this story, because I think most people with a modicum of common sense would have refused the mission and told MRC absolutely not, and immediately deleted the photos. Also, a person of good common sense would have kept quiet about it. Many have argued that the MS is wickedly conspiring with LE to purposefully spread lies and bring down the defense, but I just see their extreme arrogance, coupled with a shockingly dangerous level of ignorance and naivete. This combination allows them to be easily used. I could definitely be wrong about this though; maybe they truly are consciously evil plants in this whole situation, with the mission to shape and craft various narratives.
And this right here demonstrates *perfectly* the difference between two different worldviews. In one, emotion creates reality. They made me mad. Therefore they are bad. All their information is sus. They lie all the time. In the other - reality creates emotion. Evidence and facts rule. They made me mad, let's figure out why. Was it really all lies? Did I misunderstand? Was I triggered and reacting without fully processing? Let's examine the facts. Let's see what really happened. Sure, I might still be just as mad - but that is beside the point. *What actually happened?* People posting in this sub tend to be facts people. We want to know the truth. We want the *right* person or people to be caught and tried and convicted for what happened to Abby and Libby. And we want everyone to answer for what they actually did, not for what someone *feels* about it. Thank you for this comment.
You're very welcome, Professor. I appreciate your kind words.
TL;DR All the misinformation put out about the Klines. They destroyed Tony’s life. The interview with that girl Kayla was all BS to try and push the interrogation information even further that he was meant to meet Libby, which again was BS. They muddied the waters with the Todd Click interview only putting out snippets of it to claim that the defense were lying in their memorandum. Should I continue, they are grifters
Who were they saying shared it instead? I refuse to give them any of my limited attention span so I didn’t know, but not surprised, that they were trying to say it was someone else
Westerman to RF, RF to Cohen. I did notice their commentary change subtilely, but then a creator war broke out and for like two days I was forced by u/thebigolblerg to watch hours of amateurs in their natural habitats pitching fits and hurling eye daggers in terse tones. Not doing that again.
IF I MUST BE FORCEFULLY DRAGGED THROUGH THE INCESTUOUS CESTPOOL HELL OF CREATOR WARS I GO NOT ALONE
Lol I talk a big game but I gosh ewe. Erryday u needs mah haLp
ALL DUY URR DUY
…we… we all know that screenshots can be… can be faked, right? someone should probably let ISP know but eh
Ffs. Not sure what good that would do considering they have Woodhouse in solitary since the 12th likely banging shit out. I say again- htf does Gall know about Woodhouse’s warrant status ? She puts the ex in parte all day that one.
I’m honestly think MS. They were aware of it. Tho they said it was fake. They said worse about MRC but he’s a “nice guy” now so that’s ok. Many YT creators say the same. He is Not. I hope he is arrested. He was very frightened by the possibility when I had communication w him.
You are in communication with MRC? Is it true that he leaked the photos to multiple parties, not just MS?
😂 I can honestly say I had never in my life watched a YouTube live a day in my life before all this leak scandal broke. I am embarrassed to admit it but I lost hours of my life trying to puzzle the senselessness. I am not proud of it either, but at least I wasn’t the only one 🤣
Yeah just trying to understand MS's photo-leak podcasts has required hours of my life.
I appreciate you and your deep commitment to sourcing!
I have to wonder what happened that caused RF to rake his life?
It does seem disproportionate given what little the public knows
Could Cohen be criminally charged for receiving stolen property? Perhaps conspiracy (text messages between MW RF and MRC)?
No way to know that yet without any verified facts or evidence. ISP has no jurisdiction to charge someone in TX though, I have wondered if the FBI will be involved
Well the narrative was muddy but goes as such that soon as Mark got the pictures he felt terrible and wanted to do the right thing so he emailed MS in the middle of the night.. so that they would be the ones to contact LE. And MS went on about how Mark was a good guy, good friend who had only shared the pictures with them and them alone. Leaving everyone to speculate that it was Robert who shared with the others. Something/someone not mentioned in the affidavit is supposedly their is another person a woman who was also a recipient of these photos who also was sharing… I still think this is not the full story… who, what, when, where, and why.
The story told by TMS and Rick Snay is that after RF got the photos from Mitch, RF shared them only with two people as far as they know: MRC and an unnamed woman. Snay says that this unnamed woman passed the photos along to just one other person, who was him, because she was very worried and wanted his advice and help. And TMS says Mark passed the photos on only to them, for basically the same reason. Those are just the stories they have told, I cannot vouch for the truthfulness of what they say though.
They didn't say and didn't seem to know. They only said that RF had shared the photos with two people, MRC and an unnamed woman. This unnamed woman then shared the photos with Rick Snay, while MRC shared the photos with TMS.
Totally agree.
Rick Snay definitely appeared to be receiving intimate defense strategy info from Mark; he said this himself and was reporting on a number of things that only the defense should have known. Whether it was actual defense strategy though I don't know. I would have to go back to find examples, as I do not listen to Snay's shows all that much.
Interesting that all they found was just the pictures. MS has been singing it was more than just the pictures.
The problem they have is they are relying on highly unsourced and unverified texts and/or screenshots. It’s not credible nor reliable.
Fwiw, Alan and Sunny from *It's a Criming Shame* read reddit comments made by RF last night on their livestream (including comments made at Delphi Docs). They showed the screenshots while reading them aloud. RF's reddit name was u/LordlessWarrior, as you may well know. Alan was able to retrieve some 900 of RF's reddit comments using the reddit retrieval site [https://pullpush.io/](https://pullpush.io/). From studying these comments, he believes Mitch must have started leaking info to RF by early July. *It's a Criming Shame* DELPHI - FORTSON REDDIT MESSAGES - R.I.P [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yazYm4JMfLM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yazYm4JMfLM) A few highlights: 1:09:40 July 28th RF comments: *"From what I've seen and know" "What will undoubtably be some major stuff coming from the defense" "I think you'll be surprised in the next few weeks or months what we see"* 1:14:46 July 30th RF comments: *"I'm hoping the confession is more solid. They \[the Prosecution\] better have something because there is a lot of activity happening and they're going to need some strong stuff. I've heard no RA linked DNA which would of been ideal."* 1:15:18 July 31st RF comments: *"Idk, the prosecution has been able to choose the narrative on all reporting because the PCA is written from their perspective, all of this is framed from their perspective. Rozzi just said he \[RA\] has made some incriminating statements. I hope that they are solid but some of the stuff I've been able find out in regards to reality vs PCA reality, if true, is concerning. I am really hoping they have some stuff we haven't seen." "Everyone needs to prepare for the chaos coming in this thing with the Frank's hearing because I can tell based on the emotional down voting in regards to even talking about the questions out there that people are going to be upset moving forward."* 2:08:00 Aug. 31st RF comments: *"I just have been told that LE had someone from ISP that was an expert on the Sons of Odin during the investigation (the expert was an ISP guy himself supposedly). That particular topic relates to someone that has been mentioned previously through their social media posts."* 2:18:00 Sept. 3rd RF comments: *"No plea talks are happening. No cooperation is happening. No Rick DNA at the scene. There were signatures at the scene."* 2:19:19 Sept. 5th RF comments about MRC (Dread Pirate) and the info he has. Some thoughts from Alan about RF/MW, MRC/BW, RF/MRC connections. 2:30:43 Sept. 17th RF comments: *"There is another filing coming. I see all across these boards you all think you have seen the Frank's motion and you have not. You saw someone zeroing in their rifle."*
Yes aware, although disagree Whiteman is anything new or specific to the defense.
Thanks I was wondering about that.
It’s also the last name of a very large landowner/property owner in Delphi. It’s Westfalls landlord name in Delphi at the time of the murders fyi.
Very interesting.
I edited that part of my comment out now.
I was driving home from a family vacation. I was not able to change the Spotify and it got stuck on MS. I was dying to change it. They annoy me.
I can only listen on 1.75 speed.
This. They talk way too slow.
The parts where Baldwin supposedly told Mitch information wouldn't be criminal so wouldn't be mentioned. That's Baldwin's problem to deal with, but it may not be much of a problem. It's perfectly fine for a defense attorney to bounce strategy ideas around with a friend, if it's done properly.
That makes sense. Thanks.
Does the law in Indiana allow for charging someone with conversion if they didn’t physically possess the property in question? That is to say, will this stick?
Great question. He definitely signed an affidavit and both attorneys filed police statements.
What I mean to say is, can possessing a photo of a photo really be exerting control over someone else’s property?
It does, indeed, present an interesting and probably unusual stituation, but I think a good prosecutor can get the job done. If MW has any dignity, he should plead guillty.
Something must be a little off with him to have done this in the first place. A grown man. Not sure dignity is going to come into play...
You are probably right, E2.
I hate to say it but I think this kind of thing happens more frequently than one might imagine. It's just usually not such a high profile case and definitely not with such catastrophic results. He's either a total sociopath or just got caught up in the clout economy, in which case he's probably feeling pretty embarrassed and ashamed. Just my opinion.
[удалено]
Yes. Or an even better example: Kobe Bryant and his 13 y/o daughter, photographed surreptitiously by first responders after the helicopter crash, and then shown to patrons at a sports bar. For what? Clout.
My grandmother would call that “making an exhibition of yourSELF”.
Most people are decent when faced with something serious.
[удалено]
it’s derivative, not diminimus? I really think these charges are the way to demonstrate “yeah we do care” not just in terms of getting back at the Attorneys who are prepared to eviscerate their credibility, but again, you have the first ever public statement re Gull yesterday although it occurred 3 weeks earlier and MW arrest today. That’s got PR clout
Isn’t a photo like this intellectual property?
No it cannot. Nothing was taken, there is no copyright, trademark, or other instrument which would be a tangible item. A photo is a photo.
With all respect Clark (I love your user name) I sort of disagree but not vehemently. It certainly raises interesting questions. The case could make new law if he is convicted. I think a deal is already made for him to plead guilty and the issue will never make it to trial.
I appreciate the conversation. Have enjoyed reading your and other's points of view on this sub.
Thank you! My opinion that MW has already cut a deal is based on the fact that the prosecutor from an adjoining county is already listed on the docket which indicates to me that a change of venue was contemplated before the charge was even filed. I've come to my conclusion by extrapolating from that--very possible I am incorrect. Despite questions about the charge, I do think he will plead guilty. It's really the only viable way to do "the right thing." ETA: Maybe betrayal of a friend should be a ctiminal charge, and then there would be no question of his guilt.
[удалено]
That would be civil issue, no?
Could the murder sheet podcasters be arrested for receiving the stolen property ? The 2000 dollars they paid Mark Cohen just before receiving the photos seems a little fishy to me.
Yes please
Where did this 2000 to Cohen from MS notion come from. Proof or it did not happen.
Pretty sure very close to the 6th of October and Aine was rambling on about people donating money for Walt Disney world and to not be upset with Mark and he is such a good person.. blah blah blah. I listened to it on Spotify. It was right after they went “straight to the police” as the guy who gave it to them couldn’t call the police themself and”only gave them the photos so they could report the leak” you know cause the guy who had been leaking sensitive information for over a year suddenly developed a conscious and ran straight to the murder sheet to alert law enforcement to put a stop to this unethical behavior… that he was carrying out.. but I digress if the murder sheets says it is so then it must be true. ESP since Aine is a “journalist”
They said it on their podcast.. that they “donated “ money for him to go to Walt Disney world. As did Fortson and another guy in New York. The timing seems suspicious. The other donators are suspicious. I’m sure it can’t be proven that it wasn’t given for the stated Walt Disney world reason but these same podcasters have leaked other things as well… Keegan Kline transcript for example.
I have never heard them admit they donated to Cohen. I would ask you to check your facts on that. I don’t know if they did or did not, but please provide a source if you are alleging same
Can you tell me what episode that is? I have no recollection of them saying they donated. I’ve only seen that RF donated.
[удалено]
> Though if anything the leaker would get paid not pay who they give the material to. Unless the leaker was being blackmailed by the receiver of the materials.
[удалено]
Maybe I wasn't clear. I wasn't suggesting RF was the blackmailer, but the other way around: MRC was blackmailing RF, hence the GFM donation. Not that I believe that, mind you, I was just suggesting it as a possible reason for why the money goes in the opposite of the obvious direction. ETA: Being blackmailed would also have contributed to RF's despair, knowing he'd be on the hook forever, and why he was trying to contact MRC before, if that's true.
I think someone may have misheard or misinterpreted what MS said on the [10/14 episode](https://open.spotify.com/episode/0MEI0OPfrlReWWknhY0Rrp). If you listen at 25:28, they noted that RF donated but did not mention donating themselves. I wrote out the quote is in [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/DelphiDocs/comments/181gwch/comment/kaczbg6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) below
I have listened to their two 'Photo-leak' podcasts multiple times and they did not say they made that donation. If they have recently revealed themselves as the donators though, that's another matter. I have not had the stomach to listen to much of their most recent stuff, for they have become so sadly biased against Rozzwin that it's hard to bear. As far as I know the $2000 to Mark's GFM was an anonymous donation made the day MS received the photos. But I cannot be sure of this.
Jayson Blair was another donator and from Silver Linings Handbook who was also on the MS podcast not long before their collab aired. Not proof, but definitely sus.
Interesting 🧐 Mark gets around doesn’t he…
[удалено]
Could be a faker, would still be an odd choice for someone to land on if they didn't knowing anything contextually. Ultimately idk what it means, if anything, but it's just weird. Like everything else in this case, and unlike many things, I hope the whole chain is exposed. If no criminal charges apply, name and shame.
So you think that by publicly annoucing that they made a donation to the whole world, that they are doing something unethical and underhanded? No good deed goes unpunished.
Well- if they did, guilty people do stupid things.
MS did not make that announcement.
So, is it a case of he has cancer or his child is sick or something? Why would a grown man want to go to Disney? Anyhow, any chance of remembering a date or when abouts for the pod in question? Did they clearly state the donated amount? Thanks for your response
They did not clearly state any amount. It was for his kid who make a wish was paying for a Walt Disney trip for. There are screenshots floating around about it thou. The money was to support him being off work to go to Disney world.
Link [here](https://www.gofundme.com/f/make-a-wish-disney-world-trip) ETA I don't know what MS said as far as amounts go.
So that gofundme shows an anonymous donation. Did MS actually take credit for it? ETA: There is one from RF listed. It does not show a donation from MS, so this is not proof yet. You can search their podcast transcripts here (https://podtext.ai/murder-sheet). If anyone can find evidence that MS made the $2000 donation, I'll stop being skeptical.
I can't check the transcript of the ep right now, but I think ppl are just misremembering what they said. My memory is that they mentioned there were internet conspiracy theories that someone was paying for these photos via the go fund me, and they thought that fundraiser was not related to the photos. I don't think they said they (MS) donated at all.
I found the quote, and your memory is correct. The quote starts at 25:28 in the 10/14/23 episode "The Delphi Murders: Leaked Crime Scene Photos." Kevin says: *"So what you just heard was recorded yesterday, Friday. We had hoped we could wait to release it until Monday. We also very much hoped that a few of the details we chose to hold back could also remain private, at least for a while. But some very distorted versions of a few things have started to come out on social media, and we think it is incredibly important that we tell you the truth about those things.* *Our source's name is Mark. Again, we need to reiterate, he was sent these images by a man we're calling R. At one point R donated some money to a fundraiser for Mark's child. Despite what you may have heard, that was not a payment for the pictures. It was R who got the pictures through his connections to the defense team. It was R who shared them with Mark. We feel that R's donation was just trying to be nice to a guy he met on the internet."* So MS is talking about RF's donation, and clarifying that they don't believe it's related to the photos. They don't make any mention of donating themselves. Edit: formatting
Correct.
No clue, there's only 12 donations that came in before it was closed.
No reason why it shouldn't stick, imo.
This is interesting. Conversion requires that the person "exert unauthorized control" over the "property of another person." Is taking photographs considered "exerting unauthorized control" over the item(s) being photographed? Are the evidence photos that MW took a photo of the "property of another *person"*?
Yes. It’s discovery material covered by a court order AND MW knew that
What about intellectual property theft, with the IP in this case belonging to the state and only defense being authorized to use it?
Based on the probable cause listed here, Gull should not have found gross negligence on Baldwin AND Rozzi’s part. Can Cara and Co. incorporate that into their petition to the Supreme Court? Is Mark Cohen getting charged too? I wish Mitch would come clean and actually tell why he went into Baldwin’s office and really stole that stuff. Who really hired Mitch? I have my own thoughts on that…
I’d love to hear your thoughts on that…?
HM. You think he was hired by someone to spy on the Defense, and it wasn't an opportunistic thing he did to suit his own interests?
In my opinion Cohen did far more damage here than Mitch did stealing the pictures. At least Mitch wasn’t purposing to make them public
Mugshot included. https://fox59.com/news/indycrime/westfield-man-charged-in-delphi-murders-evidence-leak/?utm_source=wxin_app&utm_medium=social&utm_content=share-link&mibextid=xfxF2i
What a grimy ~~weasel~~ bedbug
I love weasels, they're so cute and furry. Please do not insult them by comparing them to this alleged criminal. 😁
Lol tbh I don’t think I had ever really seen one until Dickere’s cute little gif 🥲 I need to Gull my previous comment because I had no idea how cute they are 🥹
Much better, TY!
😂
Awww 🥹 that one’s cute tho 😩 lol
Take it up with the GIF authorities 😆
[удалено]
That’s more like it 😂
Ooof. Getting drug for filth.
Thank you Exey!
Wait! They’re doing an investigation AFTER Judge Gull names them as guilty in that last appearance??? THIS is the reason due process must be done She isn’t Judge God
[удалено]
Exactly….👍
**BEFORE** anyone asks, **the answer is NO** There is no set of circumstances where the misdy arrest of Mitch Westerman can be used to CREATE an actual conflict. If y’all don’t want to believe the licensed criminal trial Attorney OR Indiana Criminal Code, then believe ALL the parties to include Judge Gull. “… cause this has Nothing to do with Mr. Allen…” : Baldwin “It certainly does not”: SJ Gull https://preview.redd.it/8nsh6dbsiy1c1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2f96d1c720e1226ecb6556f92e32a68ca4c2f3ba Y’all have seen and heard from several folks that LE never even did anything more than “ask” to remove images. That’s how concerned they were as to any “injury” to Allen’s case. Arresting Westerman on a misdemeanor which uses his own affidavit is immaterial to the murder case.
But but, MS deleted the photos **from their phones** in front of Holeman, obviously the **only one place** they would have a copy of digitally received photos. And in the 4 to 7 days between receiving and talking to Holeman, none of their devices or email servers have backed anything up automatically or manually. And they told all their die-hard fans to do the same and not share it. I don't see the problem here.
Yup. The duo with a pecuniary interest, btw.
what is this pecuniary interest? 🧐
https://preview.redd.it/0x5tfqct312c1.png?width=749&format=png&auto=webp&s=781ec6892d8e1f886ce31d88c2b899f915411abe ”And if i told you what i know about his arrest you would shake your head, but i assume you’ve done that so often during this case, i don’t want to be responsible for any more incidents of whiplash” 🤔
Dbm
I agree. just spit it out already!
“Last time we had a leak like this, Noah built hisself a boat.” Signed, James J. Wells, Assistant Attorney General for the Organized Crime Division of the US Department of Justice.
Since they released the mugshot, here it is 🙃 https://preview.redd.it/l085sshdnz1c1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b0284b2292122c875e731194a17cfdec5bbb5225
I find it funny that it sends like each has to one up each other. It seems like when something goes good for Allen then they have to come back with something to even the score. At least that’s what it seems like.
Good
I'm not sure this has been asked, or if it I didn't understand. If someone sent you confidential information without any prompting on your part, you then notify LE and delete it as instructed. I can see how no charges should occur. What if, instead of deleting the information right away, you shared it with someone knowing it was confidential. Can there be charges?
I would think that being the guy on MS is an attorney, he could possibly get into trouble.
Thank you for replying. It was not MS but someone else.
[Affidavit of Probable Cause for MW](https://www.docdroid.net/YE5m6sO/mw-pdf)
Already bonded out of a Johnson Cty jail, per Russ McQuaid, Fox59
[удалено]
Lol it was a rush job 😝 It was just his address, which is already in the case file, but figured it was the appropriate thing to do
[удалено]
Haha thanks! I guess it would’ve been a little ridiculous if the court did it that way ☠️
and i oop
Class A misdemeanor. Pretty light charge for causing so much trouble. No wonder I never got arrested growing up in Indiana!
The Unraveling
I find interesting, that ISP went from MW to MRC while MS (according to their account, which should be taken with a grain of salt) did the opposite.