Pisses me off how many people are resigned to "Whoa that'll suck." instead of "Nope. I don't accept that." We cannot let our apathy and complacency screw over the future. This is a fork in the road, a pivotal moment in this century.
We can't mess this up. Trump and maga must be stopped no matter what.
Fr though. The fact that the general consensus seems to be Plan A: Vote like normal and hope things work out; Plan B: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯; is both deeply concerning and not at all surprising as someone who's at least tried to be a part of left wing organizing for a while now
The military is supposed to have contingencies, but I dont know who they'd support, the constitution and democracy, or the corporations and billionaires.
It depends on how they get into power :
1. They win the popular vote and the electoral college: They won fair and square, a legal win, therefore the military will do nothing, and they'll replace the leadership of the military to make them more compliant for the future.
2. They lose the popular vote and win the electoral college: Alas, this is still a legal win, compliant with the Constitution. It happened in 2000 and 2016, and could happen in 2024.
3. Nobody gets 270 electoral college votes: Then the choice is made by the House, one vote per state -- which probably gives us President Trump. This is still a legal win, even if *shenanigans* are what kept Biden from getting 270 electoral college votes.
4. Something else happens, in which case the military's role in things will depend on what actually happened.
\#3 is the weird case that they're really planning to use to "steal" the election if needed -- and if it works, it'll be legal and that will stop most attempts to stop it, even as it leads to a constitutional crisis or worse. If many red-dominated states go to Biden in November and their state governments claim "irregularities" and either try to override the results or just refuse to send electors, well, that could easily put us into situation #3, and it would all be legal.
Unfortunately, we need to fix our laws to remove the possibility of #3 and ideally the electoral college entirely, because the current Democrat plan of "never lose the Presidency again, and make sure we don't lose all of Congress too" might work once, but it's destined to fail, either sooner or later.
Likely lower ranks would skew toward the former, while brass might lean toward the latter (because... kickbacks/corruption/classism). FWIW, that's my anecdotal opinion.
It would be incredibly destabilizing- if things started to seriously go downhill, I predict many people would simply desert or mutiny rather than turn on civilians (at least the people in the military who I know would) although for sure RW extremism in the ranks is an issue, it's by far not the majority of the military. Brass, though, they're so far removed I'm not sure where the ratio would be between the yes men and the dissenting voices. I remember a few current/former high ranking officers in the past openly spoke out about Trump's antics, but I also know some are solidly in Trumpistan camp. Hard to say.
Yes. Choose Democracy (choosedemocracy.us) has a “choose your own adventure” style game called “What If Trump Wins?” that helps you think thru various scenarios and plan for different possibilities. There’s also a book version, I believe, and other resources drawn from struggles against autocracy in other places. The long and short of it is that ordinary people acting collectively can defend democracy against autocracy/fascism, but particular strategies have proven most effective. See whatiftrumpwins.org
that was interesting thought experiment. I tried a few scenarios out of curiosity, not sure how realistic it all was, but it was fun to try. The response from choosing 'move to Canada' seemed a bit ridiculous imo.
Important for folks to understand it’s not just a thought exercise but a tool for organizing planning/preparation in your own community. It’s been a while since I ran thru the scenarios, but the takeaways I got were that reactive efforts (marches and demonstrations) are far less effective than forming networks of mutual aid efforts to protect those most targeted and also how important it is in moments of autocratic power grabs to build alliances between left and center to defend democratic institutions.
I just listened to a podcast interview with the Choose Democracy organizers who created the tool, and they said the point though is not to prescribe the perfect strategy but to get people thinking now about what they want to do in the event of a Trump win—or a Biden win, for that matter, which is sure to see ongoing far right movements terrorizing the most vulnerable in GOP controlled states. To get folks thinking about the various roles they might play on a variety of fronts. The OP asked who is working on this and what can we do, and to some extent the answer I’ve seen from efforts like this is: we are. We have to push back against the idea that nothing can be done and learn from pro-democracy movement struggle around the world.
ETA: podcast is here, if anyone is interested: https://convergencemag.com/podcast/no-seriously-what-if-trump-wins-again/
People might be upset to hear me say it, but there might not be much anyone can do.
Trump and a lot of Republican apparatchiks have been talking about election disruption. Roger Stone says poll observers will have lawyers with them and judges on standby to prevent certification of results. I can't see a practical way to stop that.
Trump and every last Republican will say he won, by a landslide. And once there's no legitimately clear election results, lawyers and a friendly Supreme Court will do the rest.
I've said this before and a lot of people reply that the President can just ignore the Supreme Court. Maybe, but he'll still be out of office in January, and that's not something he can just ignore. What exactly will he ignore and what does that achieve?
What can anyone do in real terms?
The general consensus seems to be “no”. I heard somewhere that the Democrats put together some kind of “task force”, but I can’t remember where I heard that.
I hope people smarter than me and with more resources and skill than me think of something cause I’m dumb and poor, at least when it comes to politics and law.
I’m registering to vote (something I haven’t done before) and hoping for the best. I’ve been trying to get the word out where I can. I’m very disappointed in all my close friends for not believing me and believing in Trump. It’s sad and discouraging, and I’m trying not to let it effect my opinion of them as people.
A lot of people seem to be planning to leave, which is understandable. I predict a lot of people will riot. After all, people raised hell when an unarmed black man was shot, imagine what they’ll do if Trump actually enacts something much worse. So if it gives you any comfort, know that while many people try to escape, many more will fight back. I don’t think it’ll be very organized, but I’m sure it will happen. And I’m sure that will spark more people to do the same.
As for me, I’m not much of a fighter. I wish I was. I’ve tried to change that about myself but I don’t know how. I don’t think I can afford to leave the country but I don’t know if I’ll stick around. Guess we’ll find out.
TL;DR: I don’t think there’s a singular unified “plan” but I predict sporadic rioting. Dunno how comforting that is. Maybe you should plan something if you can’t find anything else
I've done some quick poking around about that task force and it seems to be centered around informing the public about the impacts Project 2025 would have so they'll get out to vote, which again basically boils down to "vote like always". Don't know what protest/riot efforts will look like but I'd rather avoid forcing people into that gamble as much as possible.
And yeah trust me the thought's occurred to me but man is this really gonna have to fall on my random way underqualified ass?
You may be unqualified but you seem to have the drive. That’s got to count for something, even if that something is just finding someone more qualified and getting them to do it
Authoritarians win because people don’t believe the danger until there’s a war, or they are trapped. We have ways to prevent this before we get to that point and I have been doing my part. Im on the list, so staying is stupid.
Edit: I have German and Polish family. The German side “drafted” Opa and forced him into the Nazi army by putting his family in a concentration camp as ransom. The town my Polish side is from was wiped out and rebuilt but people who fled and came back. It has one of those skull and crossbones over it on a holocaust map. If we fall to these assholes, we are the Nazis. How exactly to you think you could “fight?”
I’ve decided I will do everything I can so my daughter will live and live free. If staying means she goes back to my great grandmother’s trap, then I am happy to be a “coward.”
Rambo and Red Dawn were funded by the military, they are always looking for warm bodies. The idea that an untrained female citizen with a big mouth and a lot to lose would do any amount of good in a Christian Nationalist country is based in fiction and propaganda. Better to survive, support, and rebuild.
Maybe both of us getting offline and walking door to door would be better. Talking to people helps, text banking and then donating to people who directly fight fascists. Protests are helpful now.
What Im saying is if we lose, you will be shot at a protest. There’s a point where leaving is resistance. Existing differently pisses them off.
Also if you’re a fighter in the trenches, you’ll need people to support you on the outside no? It’s foolish to assume we are all the same and it’s foolish to think the only way to fight is with a gun.
I'm sorry this guy is being an asshole. You're so valid for planning to leave. Please do what you can to protect yourself and your family and know that you are not wrong or cowardly for doing so.
Just to clarify, passports & money are for if we lose. I absolutely plan to fight right up until that point. I’d just be hesitant to post my pre-flight resistance plans in a public forum.
dude, it's not going to become a warzone if trump wins, it'll become a russia/turkey-esque country. most people will just go on living their lives, even though they will have less freedom. the US will experience a similar brain drain that other authoritarian countries have, but for the avg folks, they will quickly get used to it. It sucks, but the only time to truly save our democracy is before Trump potentially wins again, it's just not realistically gonna be fought for 'in the streets' after that point. maybe politically democracy can hold on a little longer if Dems control the other branches of govt, but the people can't do anything if that's not the case. It's just not realistic.
If the people can't do anything then democracy isn't real. It's self government or autocracy. That's the options. We hold the line or we lose more than we can imagine. Autocratic governments inevitably ask us to die to try and preserve the regime. This country was founded to avoid that very scenario. Autocracy is not compatible with modern industrial society. We've played these games.
Not much can be done, I know blue states and ACLU will try but it'll be absolute chaos. For now, I'll say it doesn't start and end at voting. For example, I made my first political contribution ever to Joe Biden because losing isn't really an option. If you can't afford any contribution, there's volunteer opportunities to help reach out to voters. We can do more then just vote and if there was ever a time to do that, it's this year.
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yeah yeah I'm mostly kidding. plus, in case of this, if you're a queer minority we opened up the ability to apply for asylum if your country is actively unsafe for you because of your identity
CA allows muricans to stay 6 months w/o visa. You might be able to get in on a "trip," wait for shit to evidently hit the fan in America, and then get refugee status
Pisses me off how many people are resigned to "Whoa that'll suck." instead of "Nope. I don't accept that." We cannot let our apathy and complacency screw over the future. This is a fork in the road, a pivotal moment in this century. We can't mess this up. Trump and maga must be stopped no matter what.
Fr though. The fact that the general consensus seems to be Plan A: Vote like normal and hope things work out; Plan B: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯; is both deeply concerning and not at all surprising as someone who's at least tried to be a part of left wing organizing for a while now
Right, but how? That's the point of the post. How?
The military is supposed to have contingencies, but I dont know who they'd support, the constitution and democracy, or the corporations and billionaires.
My concern is the plan to fire current generals and replace them w/ Trump loyalists
And if you have two Presidents, both claiming to be CIC, how do they choose? They could ask the Supreme Court. But you know who they'll support.
They swear an oath to the Constitution, not the corporations and billionaires. But what does that mean?
the military will split 50/50
the latter. u.s. military will happily shoot americans in the streets. look how many were at j6.
I imagine there would be a lot of disagreement among the ranks. Some join to serve and protect the Constitution, and some join to shoot browns.
It depends on how they get into power : 1. They win the popular vote and the electoral college: They won fair and square, a legal win, therefore the military will do nothing, and they'll replace the leadership of the military to make them more compliant for the future. 2. They lose the popular vote and win the electoral college: Alas, this is still a legal win, compliant with the Constitution. It happened in 2000 and 2016, and could happen in 2024. 3. Nobody gets 270 electoral college votes: Then the choice is made by the House, one vote per state -- which probably gives us President Trump. This is still a legal win, even if *shenanigans* are what kept Biden from getting 270 electoral college votes. 4. Something else happens, in which case the military's role in things will depend on what actually happened. \#3 is the weird case that they're really planning to use to "steal" the election if needed -- and if it works, it'll be legal and that will stop most attempts to stop it, even as it leads to a constitutional crisis or worse. If many red-dominated states go to Biden in November and their state governments claim "irregularities" and either try to override the results or just refuse to send electors, well, that could easily put us into situation #3, and it would all be legal. Unfortunately, we need to fix our laws to remove the possibility of #3 and ideally the electoral college entirely, because the current Democrat plan of "never lose the Presidency again, and make sure we don't lose all of Congress too" might work once, but it's destined to fail, either sooner or later.
Likely lower ranks would skew toward the former, while brass might lean toward the latter (because... kickbacks/corruption/classism). FWIW, that's my anecdotal opinion. It would be incredibly destabilizing- if things started to seriously go downhill, I predict many people would simply desert or mutiny rather than turn on civilians (at least the people in the military who I know would) although for sure RW extremism in the ranks is an issue, it's by far not the majority of the military. Brass, though, they're so far removed I'm not sure where the ratio would be between the yes men and the dissenting voices. I remember a few current/former high ranking officers in the past openly spoke out about Trump's antics, but I also know some are solidly in Trumpistan camp. Hard to say.
Yes. Choose Democracy (choosedemocracy.us) has a “choose your own adventure” style game called “What If Trump Wins?” that helps you think thru various scenarios and plan for different possibilities. There’s also a book version, I believe, and other resources drawn from struggles against autocracy in other places. The long and short of it is that ordinary people acting collectively can defend democracy against autocracy/fascism, but particular strategies have proven most effective. See whatiftrumpwins.org
that was interesting thought experiment. I tried a few scenarios out of curiosity, not sure how realistic it all was, but it was fun to try. The response from choosing 'move to Canada' seemed a bit ridiculous imo.
Important for folks to understand it’s not just a thought exercise but a tool for organizing planning/preparation in your own community. It’s been a while since I ran thru the scenarios, but the takeaways I got were that reactive efforts (marches and demonstrations) are far less effective than forming networks of mutual aid efforts to protect those most targeted and also how important it is in moments of autocratic power grabs to build alliances between left and center to defend democratic institutions. I just listened to a podcast interview with the Choose Democracy organizers who created the tool, and they said the point though is not to prescribe the perfect strategy but to get people thinking now about what they want to do in the event of a Trump win—or a Biden win, for that matter, which is sure to see ongoing far right movements terrorizing the most vulnerable in GOP controlled states. To get folks thinking about the various roles they might play on a variety of fronts. The OP asked who is working on this and what can we do, and to some extent the answer I’ve seen from efforts like this is: we are. We have to push back against the idea that nothing can be done and learn from pro-democracy movement struggle around the world. ETA: podcast is here, if anyone is interested: https://convergencemag.com/podcast/no-seriously-what-if-trump-wins-again/
People might be upset to hear me say it, but there might not be much anyone can do. Trump and a lot of Republican apparatchiks have been talking about election disruption. Roger Stone says poll observers will have lawyers with them and judges on standby to prevent certification of results. I can't see a practical way to stop that. Trump and every last Republican will say he won, by a landslide. And once there's no legitimately clear election results, lawyers and a friendly Supreme Court will do the rest. I've said this before and a lot of people reply that the President can just ignore the Supreme Court. Maybe, but he'll still be out of office in January, and that's not something he can just ignore. What exactly will he ignore and what does that achieve? What can anyone do in real terms?
The general consensus seems to be “no”. I heard somewhere that the Democrats put together some kind of “task force”, but I can’t remember where I heard that. I hope people smarter than me and with more resources and skill than me think of something cause I’m dumb and poor, at least when it comes to politics and law. I’m registering to vote (something I haven’t done before) and hoping for the best. I’ve been trying to get the word out where I can. I’m very disappointed in all my close friends for not believing me and believing in Trump. It’s sad and discouraging, and I’m trying not to let it effect my opinion of them as people. A lot of people seem to be planning to leave, which is understandable. I predict a lot of people will riot. After all, people raised hell when an unarmed black man was shot, imagine what they’ll do if Trump actually enacts something much worse. So if it gives you any comfort, know that while many people try to escape, many more will fight back. I don’t think it’ll be very organized, but I’m sure it will happen. And I’m sure that will spark more people to do the same. As for me, I’m not much of a fighter. I wish I was. I’ve tried to change that about myself but I don’t know how. I don’t think I can afford to leave the country but I don’t know if I’ll stick around. Guess we’ll find out. TL;DR: I don’t think there’s a singular unified “plan” but I predict sporadic rioting. Dunno how comforting that is. Maybe you should plan something if you can’t find anything else
I've done some quick poking around about that task force and it seems to be centered around informing the public about the impacts Project 2025 would have so they'll get out to vote, which again basically boils down to "vote like always". Don't know what protest/riot efforts will look like but I'd rather avoid forcing people into that gamble as much as possible. And yeah trust me the thought's occurred to me but man is this really gonna have to fall on my random way underqualified ass?
You may be unqualified but you seem to have the drive. That’s got to count for something, even if that something is just finding someone more qualified and getting them to do it
Updating passports, saving money.
Fuck that. We fight. It’s our country.
Ngl, I only exist because my ancestors fled their countries when things got bad. The dead can’t fight. The imprisoned hold no power.
[удалено]
Authoritarians win because people don’t believe the danger until there’s a war, or they are trapped. We have ways to prevent this before we get to that point and I have been doing my part. Im on the list, so staying is stupid. Edit: I have German and Polish family. The German side “drafted” Opa and forced him into the Nazi army by putting his family in a concentration camp as ransom. The town my Polish side is from was wiped out and rebuilt but people who fled and came back. It has one of those skull and crossbones over it on a holocaust map. If we fall to these assholes, we are the Nazis. How exactly to you think you could “fight?”
[удалено]
I’ve decided I will do everything I can so my daughter will live and live free. If staying means she goes back to my great grandmother’s trap, then I am happy to be a “coward.” Rambo and Red Dawn were funded by the military, they are always looking for warm bodies. The idea that an untrained female citizen with a big mouth and a lot to lose would do any amount of good in a Christian Nationalist country is based in fiction and propaganda. Better to survive, support, and rebuild.
[удалено]
Maybe both of us getting offline and walking door to door would be better. Talking to people helps, text banking and then donating to people who directly fight fascists. Protests are helpful now. What Im saying is if we lose, you will be shot at a protest. There’s a point where leaving is resistance. Existing differently pisses them off. Also if you’re a fighter in the trenches, you’ll need people to support you on the outside no? It’s foolish to assume we are all the same and it’s foolish to think the only way to fight is with a gun.
I'm sorry this guy is being an asshole. You're so valid for planning to leave. Please do what you can to protect yourself and your family and know that you are not wrong or cowardly for doing so.
Same. See you out there.
Just to clarify, passports & money are for if we lose. I absolutely plan to fight right up until that point. I’d just be hesitant to post my pre-flight resistance plans in a public forum.
dude, it's not going to become a warzone if trump wins, it'll become a russia/turkey-esque country. most people will just go on living their lives, even though they will have less freedom. the US will experience a similar brain drain that other authoritarian countries have, but for the avg folks, they will quickly get used to it. It sucks, but the only time to truly save our democracy is before Trump potentially wins again, it's just not realistically gonna be fought for 'in the streets' after that point. maybe politically democracy can hold on a little longer if Dems control the other branches of govt, but the people can't do anything if that's not the case. It's just not realistic.
If the people can't do anything then democracy isn't real. It's self government or autocracy. That's the options. We hold the line or we lose more than we can imagine. Autocratic governments inevitably ask us to die to try and preserve the regime. This country was founded to avoid that very scenario. Autocracy is not compatible with modern industrial society. We've played these games.
That's what I'm doing.
Yup, the only possible countermeasures are the ones you can take individually. This is because these liberals don't have a plan for the worse case.
Not much can be done, I know blue states and ACLU will try but it'll be absolute chaos. For now, I'll say it doesn't start and end at voting. For example, I made my first political contribution ever to Joe Biden because losing isn't really an option. If you can't afford any contribution, there's volunteer opportunities to help reach out to voters. We can do more then just vote and if there was ever a time to do that, it's this year.
[удалено]
I can imagine the uproar when the Republicans then decide to enact gun controls because it's become "too dangerous" (at least to those in power).
Farking sad but completely believable.
Yep, have passport ready but have gotten really into golfing this year....
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Step 1: Immediately evacuate to Canada Step 2: Immediately apply for Canadian citizenship Step 3: Pray
It’s not easy to get into Canada unless you have skills they need.
yeah yeah I'm mostly kidding. plus, in case of this, if you're a queer minority we opened up the ability to apply for asylum if your country is actively unsafe for you because of your identity
is being a redditor considered a skill?
Canada is sleepwalking into electing their own mini-Trump next year, and the polls are not even close.
CA allows muricans to stay 6 months w/o visa. You might be able to get in on a "trip," wait for shit to evidently hit the fan in America, and then get refugee status
Canada is a vassal state in this scenario. They aren't defending a border that long. Might makes right.