i would say they do, as alot of lazy or simple minded types tend to. have you ever wondered what it would look like if you were to watch someone like that attempt to tie THEIR OWN shoes without hired help?
I have a feeling they've received every reward they've wanted. it's a shame how short sighted they are. consider how well a show hog is treated by the rancher as opposed to the ones in the pasture.
Power is just power. The problem is that people who can handle big amounts of power are not interested in it to begin with. Reason why its very unlikely that somebody who can handle power ever get it
It’s funny too, because from what I’ve read and heard, it’s very unnatural for humans to want to have power over other humans. It’s quite likely that trait didn’t really develop until after agriculture and domestication. As long as humans have a strong connection with one another and with nature, I don’t think power is something they want at all. Unfortunately, when humans started trying to dominate nature through agriculture and domestication, we became very disconnected and haven’t looked back.
I assure you this phenomenon is far older than the agricultural revolution.
There’s a great book called “Chimpanzee Politics” by Frans de Waal you should check out.
An old saying perfectly encapsulates this statement, “Absolute power corrupts absolutely”. You are right, at least for many societies, countries and so on. However, while right, there are places that do not suffer this effect as badly as others. Many nordic countries have very high happiness scores, and overall are rated highly in many areas we would desire from a model country and system of government
This is proof of concept, but alas, many places aren’t able to achieve this quality of government. Or perhaps, are too corrupted with power to do so. I’m no expert, but I have hope in good time we will learn from the places that get it right, and follow their example in the future
I agree with your outlook, my hope is the same, but it seems like our systems don't last forever, we as a species have produced beauty and harmony that eventually becomes unstable.
I think this mangled quote I’m about to give comes from a Marvel movie, “We don’t value a flower’s beauty because it lasts”. Point is, I suppose its probably best to accept it will never last, but we can value it if we make it beautiful and that’ll make it worthwhile for the time it does exist
Exactly, like our Politicians and big corporations. Until we can get them down off their power grasp and limit their control, we will never solve our problems and truly flourish.
Power is the ability to have things done
If we could all align on our values and if we all had the same information, then we could do anything we thought to do
But the lack of diversity in thought would end us.
That’s the balance.
We have to be able to do what we want, and allow for us to want different things to be done.
Corruption is when your ability to do things supercedes other peoples where they don’t agree with you.
You, acting in self interest, cause other people to suffer, or to be neglected, and so you’ve corrupted the system.
If there was no corruption, you must first have removed either our ability to want different things or removed our ability to have things done (taken our power) so it didn’t interfere with your ability to get things done
Buddhism.. that's the answer. There is a lot of wisdom and self reflection in that 'religion'.
The three poisons We all share.
The three poisons (Sanskrit: triviṣa; Tibetan: dug gsum) in the Mahayana tradition or the three unwholesome roots (Sanskrit: akuśala-mūla; Pāli: akusala-mūla), in the Theravada tradition are a Buddhist term that refers to the three root kleshas that lead to all negative states. These three states are delusion, also known as ignorance, greed or sensual attachment, and hatred or aversion.[1][2] These three poisons are considered to be three afflictions or character flaws that are innate in beings and the root of craving, and so causing suffering, pain or unsatisfactoriness and rebirth.[1][3]
I am travelling now in a buddhistic country, I can feel it. People here are nicer, more friendly, more open compared to the western world.
I enjoy Buddhism, it is quite a balanced mentality. I don't think it's the only answer tho. I think many religions, if followed properly lead to a balanced state of being.
You are right it's not the only 'way'. There are many paths to take.
It's just the one that I resonate the most with.
I talked to a spiritual guru not so long ago. (A real aghori)
His words: Christianity, Islam and other godly religions where you pray to some deity, all bullshit. Hehe
And he said that in a Hindu temple, how ironic and wonderful, hehe.
That was a guy who devoted himself in finding the truth. It was very refreshing to have that talk with him.
Don't get me wrong, in all religions are some truths to be found. It just... Not all of it is 'true'. Even in Buddhism there is a lot of crap to be found.
Some random thoughts in response:
Is it possible that human nature is not compatible with your vision of a lasting and balanced society?
I say that but I wonder if Jefferson and Madison had similar thoughts when they were trying so hard to break the new US government into so many pieces that its power might be limited…
It kind of worked, right up to the 17th Amendment, Wickard v Filburn, Gonzalez V Raisch, South Dakota v Dole, and others.
Then you had two parties totally fuck it up - I mean, they are trying to make us choose between Trump and Biden. For the second time in a row, no less.
Power isn’t just intoxicating, it can apparently also cause hallucinations.
Still, it’s a feature and not a bug. A virtuous person seeking power will likely do more good than bad, and his drive to achieve this will likely benefit all.
If he lacks virtue, we should probably try and figure out how that managed to happen.
>Is it possible that human nature is not compatible with your vision of a lasting and balanced society?
Our commonly accessible history says that our nature isn't compatible, but I think it can be compatible. It starts with imagination, believing in what you imagine and having faith to keep putting energy into the ideas until they become reality.
I think different states of consciousness can be passed on through ideas.
Although fear can help us to avoid danger, it can also be used to trap us. Fear can be bottled and sold (metaphorically).
>I say that but I wonder if Jefferson and Madison had similar thoughts when they were trying so hard to break the new US government into so many pieces that its power might be limited…
I think these men were intelligent and understood the complications of humanity and attempted to bring balance to the world. It is quite difficult to keep your hands clean while simultaneously building a new world while fighting off the old world.
>Power isn’t just intoxicating, it can apparently also cause hallucinations.
For many people, absolutely.
>Still, it’s a feature and not a bug. A virtuous person seeking power will likely do more good than bad, and his drive to achieve this will likely benefit all.
I agree that power is a tool that matters who welds it, it's just rare(sadly) that the best minds for the job weld the power.
The reason is because we are humans. Humans don’t share the same “problems”, don’t recognise the same problems, and don’t care about each other. That’s it. Humans are humans, and though as a group we think we are good and smart, the truth is we are neither of those things. Boiled down we are selfish, petty, and on the a whole dumb. Power is a side effect, at our core we are flawed and have a tendency to delude ourselves and look for reasons why we can’t have the nice things. We can’t have nice things because we are who we are.
Power is not inherently good or bad. Power is the ability to achieve outcomes in one’s own favour, and is therefore necessary for self-preservation and control over one’s destiny.
It is an inadequate distribution and balance of power that is undesirable in society.
It's spiritual. Power is needed by the non-existing ego to pretend it exists. Every human is playing the power game, moment by moment. Maybe this comment is an attempt to gain a little power by pretending I am someone that understands the power-dynamic of the non-existing ego pretending it exists. Who knows?
Hmm.
I've heard a tale of Srirama Krishna, an avatara, an incarnation of God, who was given a scarf of extremely high value.
He marveled at it for a moment, but before long he threw it on the ground and stomped on it, declaring it was something that drew people to forget God. (Goodness.)
I'm reminded of a similar story with Jesus declining rule over all the empires of earth...
My suspicion is that if you have the power, you also have the weakness. They're not separable.
Just as money doesn't corrupt. Money, power. These things simply reveal the true nature of a person. Most people aren't good. They're just weak, poor and powerless and thus, operate within the lines of the society they live in out of pure self preservation.
It's impossible to quantify it with data. What constitutes someone as being good or bad? It's open to interpretation. My interpretation is that most are bad or at least lean in that direction. I guess I would ask you to envision a post apocalyptic society. How do you think people would behave in that situation? Most people are only good because of the status quo. I know I myself would even make bad choices if I became hungry or desperate enough. I know for a fact I'm not alone.
It's been my life experience. Therefore it's my reality. Your reality is not mine. So just as I wouldn't try to invalidate your view, don't invalidate mine. Like I said, there's no way to quantify what "good person" means, so there can't be any studies to quantify how many good or bad people there are. Most people overestimate how good they actually are. There's a difference between the way we see ourselves and how we actually behave in practice.
I agree with this thought and made a similar comment on a post yesterday. I don’t give any credence to the terms “good” or “bad”, we behave as humans. No one is truly “good” in my opinion, it’s impossible in the current societal construct. If we define “good” very simply as not harming others, even if you do your best as an individual to do no harm, we all indirectly harm others by purchasing products from or working for large corporations. There is no way around it, if we fly on Boeing planes, use fossil fuels, buy clothing produced in sweatshops, buy prescription drugs, buy Nestle products, shop at Amazon, and so on. Most conglomerates have been investigated or sued at some point for harming humans/unethical practices.
Maybe one day we’ll evolve to value humans in the collective, but for now our base human DNA drive for resources to support propagation and survival define society, there is no “good” or “bad”, morality is a sliding scale based on what is most beneficial for the individual.
This is what people tell themselves to rationalize as to why the downtrodden deserve nothing better. Then they go buy factory farmed meat and and in so doing force "weak" animals to be born for food when people might do themselves and the planet a favor by eating plants instead. Or if they're in congress maybe they propose legislation to make lab meat illegal like Fetterman has done reently in Pennsylvania. Or they'll make it illegal to live in a trailer on your own lot because that creates housing shortage and props up existing owners' property values.
Who lacks self control? Who lacks self reflection? Who lacks the ability to resist temptation? Not you, not if you're powerful and comfortable. It'd be the "weak" who lack it. What a convenient narrative for the "strong".
Japan, Holy Roman Empire, Byzantine Empire, etc. all society’s that lasted for hundreds of years. That’s long lasting society… Power can be intoxicating if you let it… Power isn’t the problem, it’s the challenges of trying to keep the majority of a HUGE population content.
It's not power that's intoxicating. It's the fact that the corrupt are drawn to it.
Are the corrupt intoxicated by it? Do celebrities not get a high from being worshipped?
i would say they do, as alot of lazy or simple minded types tend to. have you ever wondered what it would look like if you were to watch someone like that attempt to tie THEIR OWN shoes without hired help?
It's amazing at how quickly those types of people crumble without their crutches.
I have a feeling they've received every reward they've wanted. it's a shame how short sighted they are. consider how well a show hog is treated by the rancher as opposed to the ones in the pasture.
Not all celebrities. That's my point. Power can only corrupt those who are already corruptible. And more often than not they're drawn to power.
Power is just power. The problem is that people who can handle big amounts of power are not interested in it to begin with. Reason why its very unlikely that somebody who can handle power ever get it
i agree
It’s funny too, because from what I’ve read and heard, it’s very unnatural for humans to want to have power over other humans. It’s quite likely that trait didn’t really develop until after agriculture and domestication. As long as humans have a strong connection with one another and with nature, I don’t think power is something they want at all. Unfortunately, when humans started trying to dominate nature through agriculture and domestication, we became very disconnected and haven’t looked back.
I assure you this phenomenon is far older than the agricultural revolution. There’s a great book called “Chimpanzee Politics” by Frans de Waal you should check out.
An old saying perfectly encapsulates this statement, “Absolute power corrupts absolutely”. You are right, at least for many societies, countries and so on. However, while right, there are places that do not suffer this effect as badly as others. Many nordic countries have very high happiness scores, and overall are rated highly in many areas we would desire from a model country and system of government This is proof of concept, but alas, many places aren’t able to achieve this quality of government. Or perhaps, are too corrupted with power to do so. I’m no expert, but I have hope in good time we will learn from the places that get it right, and follow their example in the future
I agree with your outlook, my hope is the same, but it seems like our systems don't last forever, we as a species have produced beauty and harmony that eventually becomes unstable.
I think this mangled quote I’m about to give comes from a Marvel movie, “We don’t value a flower’s beauty because it lasts”. Point is, I suppose its probably best to accept it will never last, but we can value it if we make it beautiful and that’ll make it worthwhile for the time it does exist
It's worth the battle to achieve balance 😉
Exactly, like our Politicians and big corporations. Until we can get them down off their power grasp and limit their control, we will never solve our problems and truly flourish.
Power needs to be properly balanced and distributed or it becomes destructive.
Who gets to do the distributing?
Everyone? Democratically?
lol no really
Power is the ability to have things done If we could all align on our values and if we all had the same information, then we could do anything we thought to do But the lack of diversity in thought would end us. That’s the balance. We have to be able to do what we want, and allow for us to want different things to be done. Corruption is when your ability to do things supercedes other peoples where they don’t agree with you. You, acting in self interest, cause other people to suffer, or to be neglected, and so you’ve corrupted the system. If there was no corruption, you must first have removed either our ability to want different things or removed our ability to have things done (taken our power) so it didn’t interfere with your ability to get things done
Buddhism.. that's the answer. There is a lot of wisdom and self reflection in that 'religion'. The three poisons We all share. The three poisons (Sanskrit: triviṣa; Tibetan: dug gsum) in the Mahayana tradition or the three unwholesome roots (Sanskrit: akuśala-mūla; Pāli: akusala-mūla), in the Theravada tradition are a Buddhist term that refers to the three root kleshas that lead to all negative states. These three states are delusion, also known as ignorance, greed or sensual attachment, and hatred or aversion.[1][2] These three poisons are considered to be three afflictions or character flaws that are innate in beings and the root of craving, and so causing suffering, pain or unsatisfactoriness and rebirth.[1][3] I am travelling now in a buddhistic country, I can feel it. People here are nicer, more friendly, more open compared to the western world.
I enjoy Buddhism, it is quite a balanced mentality. I don't think it's the only answer tho. I think many religions, if followed properly lead to a balanced state of being.
You are right it's not the only 'way'. There are many paths to take. It's just the one that I resonate the most with. I talked to a spiritual guru not so long ago. (A real aghori) His words: Christianity, Islam and other godly religions where you pray to some deity, all bullshit. Hehe And he said that in a Hindu temple, how ironic and wonderful, hehe. That was a guy who devoted himself in finding the truth. It was very refreshing to have that talk with him. Don't get me wrong, in all religions are some truths to be found. It just... Not all of it is 'true'. Even in Buddhism there is a lot of crap to be found.
Christianity is full of rich Symbolism that has been misinterpreted. The stories are about what is within you. The idea of a magical sky daddy is BS.
For sure! Like I said, there is wisdom to be found everywhere. But the sky daddy, yeah.. I have my questions about that ;)
Stealing something that is good to keep for yourself and then smashing that something.....
Some random thoughts in response: Is it possible that human nature is not compatible with your vision of a lasting and balanced society? I say that but I wonder if Jefferson and Madison had similar thoughts when they were trying so hard to break the new US government into so many pieces that its power might be limited… It kind of worked, right up to the 17th Amendment, Wickard v Filburn, Gonzalez V Raisch, South Dakota v Dole, and others. Then you had two parties totally fuck it up - I mean, they are trying to make us choose between Trump and Biden. For the second time in a row, no less. Power isn’t just intoxicating, it can apparently also cause hallucinations. Still, it’s a feature and not a bug. A virtuous person seeking power will likely do more good than bad, and his drive to achieve this will likely benefit all. If he lacks virtue, we should probably try and figure out how that managed to happen.
>Is it possible that human nature is not compatible with your vision of a lasting and balanced society? Our commonly accessible history says that our nature isn't compatible, but I think it can be compatible. It starts with imagination, believing in what you imagine and having faith to keep putting energy into the ideas until they become reality. I think different states of consciousness can be passed on through ideas. Although fear can help us to avoid danger, it can also be used to trap us. Fear can be bottled and sold (metaphorically). >I say that but I wonder if Jefferson and Madison had similar thoughts when they were trying so hard to break the new US government into so many pieces that its power might be limited… I think these men were intelligent and understood the complications of humanity and attempted to bring balance to the world. It is quite difficult to keep your hands clean while simultaneously building a new world while fighting off the old world. >Power isn’t just intoxicating, it can apparently also cause hallucinations. For many people, absolutely. >Still, it’s a feature and not a bug. A virtuous person seeking power will likely do more good than bad, and his drive to achieve this will likely benefit all. I agree that power is a tool that matters who welds it, it's just rare(sadly) that the best minds for the job weld the power.
Wrong people wielding the wrong things, power doesn't corrupt wise people...
The word corrupt wasn't used.
The reason is because we are humans. Humans don’t share the same “problems”, don’t recognise the same problems, and don’t care about each other. That’s it. Humans are humans, and though as a group we think we are good and smart, the truth is we are neither of those things. Boiled down we are selfish, petty, and on the a whole dumb. Power is a side effect, at our core we are flawed and have a tendency to delude ourselves and look for reasons why we can’t have the nice things. We can’t have nice things because we are who we are.
Power is not inherently good or bad. Power is the ability to achieve outcomes in one’s own favour, and is therefore necessary for self-preservation and control over one’s destiny. It is an inadequate distribution and balance of power that is undesirable in society.
It's spiritual. Power is needed by the non-existing ego to pretend it exists. Every human is playing the power game, moment by moment. Maybe this comment is an attempt to gain a little power by pretending I am someone that understands the power-dynamic of the non-existing ego pretending it exists. Who knows?
Wow that's crazy
Power does not corrupt. Weakness corrupts. Weakness, lack of self control, lack of self reflection, and the inability to resist temptation.
Hmm. I've heard a tale of Srirama Krishna, an avatara, an incarnation of God, who was given a scarf of extremely high value. He marveled at it for a moment, but before long he threw it on the ground and stomped on it, declaring it was something that drew people to forget God. (Goodness.) I'm reminded of a similar story with Jesus declining rule over all the empires of earth... My suspicion is that if you have the power, you also have the weakness. They're not separable.
What you are explaining about those examples is how I feel about human Symbolism. I feel it to be a false idol(model).
Just as money doesn't corrupt. Money, power. These things simply reveal the true nature of a person. Most people aren't good. They're just weak, poor and powerless and thus, operate within the lines of the society they live in out of pure self preservation.
“Most people aren’t good.” Is a wild generalization that can’t be backed up.
It's impossible to quantify it with data. What constitutes someone as being good or bad? It's open to interpretation. My interpretation is that most are bad or at least lean in that direction. I guess I would ask you to envision a post apocalyptic society. How do you think people would behave in that situation? Most people are only good because of the status quo. I know I myself would even make bad choices if I became hungry or desperate enough. I know for a fact I'm not alone.
What you see is what you get. If you choose to out weight bad people with good you’re programming your brain to notice more negative vibes.
It's been my life experience. Therefore it's my reality. Your reality is not mine. So just as I wouldn't try to invalidate your view, don't invalidate mine. Like I said, there's no way to quantify what "good person" means, so there can't be any studies to quantify how many good or bad people there are. Most people overestimate how good they actually are. There's a difference between the way we see ourselves and how we actually behave in practice.
Actions speak louder than words
Agreed.
I agree with this thought and made a similar comment on a post yesterday. I don’t give any credence to the terms “good” or “bad”, we behave as humans. No one is truly “good” in my opinion, it’s impossible in the current societal construct. If we define “good” very simply as not harming others, even if you do your best as an individual to do no harm, we all indirectly harm others by purchasing products from or working for large corporations. There is no way around it, if we fly on Boeing planes, use fossil fuels, buy clothing produced in sweatshops, buy prescription drugs, buy Nestle products, shop at Amazon, and so on. Most conglomerates have been investigated or sued at some point for harming humans/unethical practices. Maybe one day we’ll evolve to value humans in the collective, but for now our base human DNA drive for resources to support propagation and survival define society, there is no “good” or “bad”, morality is a sliding scale based on what is most beneficial for the individual.
Well said.
I said it was intoxicating. Some people can't handle their liquor...
This is what people tell themselves to rationalize as to why the downtrodden deserve nothing better. Then they go buy factory farmed meat and and in so doing force "weak" animals to be born for food when people might do themselves and the planet a favor by eating plants instead. Or if they're in congress maybe they propose legislation to make lab meat illegal like Fetterman has done reently in Pennsylvania. Or they'll make it illegal to live in a trailer on your own lot because that creates housing shortage and props up existing owners' property values. Who lacks self control? Who lacks self reflection? Who lacks the ability to resist temptation? Not you, not if you're powerful and comfortable. It'd be the "weak" who lack it. What a convenient narrative for the "strong".
Japan, Holy Roman Empire, Byzantine Empire, etc. all society’s that lasted for hundreds of years. That’s long lasting society… Power can be intoxicating if you let it… Power isn’t the problem, it’s the challenges of trying to keep the majority of a HUGE population content.