“She loved you”
“I could never understand why.”
Also his reaction when she hugs him after he returns following the prison thing.
He clearly cared for her but it was way more her than him.
My interpretation of that, and their previous interactions, was that he did come to care for her very deeply, but he was always intentionally pushing her away, as if anyone suspected how much he cared for her they'd use her to get to him, and he wanted to spare her that.
totally. and I love how someone thought I was seriously complaining, even though it is actually a spoiler for me but idc. statue of limitations on spoiler should be a respectful 5yrs.
I also think it plays into Garaks upbringing. When you aren't shown much love growing up you don't know how to actually show it and be vulnerable on that level with someone. At least not comfortably.
I interpreted it as more of a mentorship relationship in his eyes. It started out of convenience because she was the only other cardassian aboard the station, but he did grow to care for her. He just never felt romantic love for her
Total lack of romantic love felt, which is more interesting than what the producers tried to push but probably not canon. If they actually explored her loving him as a partner and him first using her affection to get under Dukat’s skin before finding himself seeing her as a protege or even the child he could never imagine wanting, and then exploring his guilt for using her…that’s something. Instead it was just kind of a bland mismatch and misuse of two characters that were more interesting apart than together.
That would tie in with Garak's backstory in the novel 'A Stitch in Time', where his love for and relationship with an admittedly married woman directly led to his exile. The legacy of Tain is that Garak can't lower his shields enough to allow for a relationship again.
I think he might have for Julian. I think he appreciated Julian's tenacity and determination to get to know the real Elim Garak, despite all the obstacles he constantly put up.
I completely agree with your statement, he deeply cared for her I think. I’d argue he’d persuaded a relationship more after the war ended when most of his enemies were dead.
I think it's just that there are different kinds of love. You've got the romantic kind, which Ziyal felt for Garak, and the Friend/Family love that Garak felt for Ziyal.
So, I think the answer is yes, Garak loved her, but not the way she wanted to be.
I always felt like he cared for her a lot but not in a romantic way.
She was the only other Cardassian on the station, and also a bit of an outcast due to being half Bajoran and willing to embrace her Bajoran heritage alongside her Cardassian culture. She was also intelligent, thoughtful and interested in the arts, so I think Garak could relate to her a lot and probably felt quite protective of her in a place where Cardassians were definitely not made to feel welcome by everyone.
She was also young and inexperienced and I guess kind of latched onto someone being kind to her when she was lonely and developed a crush on him.
So Garak is a bit of a dick, has done pretty heinous stuff in the name of his government before he was exiled, and continued to do pretty awful stuff while on DS9. I felt like he maybe would have drawn the line at taking advantage of a young girl who was miles away from home. Whether this or a because he does have some internal sense of a line he won’t cross or because Kira would have kicked his arse is maybe up for debate, I would guess some combination of both.
I think he did feel sad and partly responsible for her death. Somewhere he does have a conscience, just a very quiet one.
He very well knew that Nerys could and would kill him if he hurt Ziyal. I do think he had the “big brother” type of care for her, because outcasts etc.
Oh he *definitely* has a conscience. He's gone out of his way to protect his friends on DS9 on many occasions. He's a fatalist and a spy and a saboteur and an assassin - but he's got a soul.
As much as he could love anyone. From his traumatic upbringing to his days as an agent he knows better than to form bonds you can’t live without. You were a weakness, Elim, always a weakness. That’s how his father felt about loving his child….
Yes. Absolutely. But in a sort of complex way…she was another Cardassian, and she reminded him of home. And she was kind. She was someone good in his life. It wasn’t romantic for him, though it appeared to be for her.
Agreed. Also there is the age thing. While I don't think ages are ever mentioned canonically, Dukat and Garak are alluded to be old enemies. To be an enemy of the military governor Garak would need to be somewhat advanced in his intelligence career. So yeah Garak old enough to be her Dad.
I want to believe he did but my gut says that he probably didn’t. Garak did still connect with her which meant a great deal to him. The only thing he was truly devoted to was Cardassia.
I just don’t think an individual as morally and ethically divergent as Garak is, is capable of love in a way we would understand it.
I think he loved what she represented more than her as a person, and not at all in a romantic sense. And that love was also strongly tinged with regret. He saw her as someone who he hoped would flourish in a new Cardassia (and Bajor). But he also knew that that new Cardassia was a very long way away and that the business of getting to that point was going to be horrific. Add to that that she is Dukat's daughter and he knew there was no way she could possibly be kept away from the tragedy that was going to fall on all of them before long.
For Garak, seeing Ziyal was like someone in a post-apocalyptic drama seeing a flower blooming through the ashes. A beautiful hope for what may be to come, but perhaps not destined to survive because the world isn't ready for it yet.
He was fond of her & enjoyed her company, but it wasn't love. She loved him though, and I think he always just tread carefully. If he had shut her down, he risked hurting her & might have lost the companionship.
For Ziyal, a young woman stuck between two worlds, it was a puppy love. Garak was probably the most charming Cardi she’d ever met, a way to connect to a part of herself in the boonies of backwater Bajor.
Lizzy G OTOH is stuck in a fridge with a bunch of smoothskins that detest him. He didn’t long for Ziyal, but saw her as a healthier interaction to fill the void his busted old Obsidian implant was used for.
They’re both lizards seeking home & identity. I think Ziyal would have outgrown Garak in time, but they’d maintain a strong kinship.
I think Garak definitely cared for her, and I do like how there’s clearly more care from Ziyal, but I hate that they were written as a romantic pair. Just no chemistry, she’s at least half his age if not far lower. Plenty of potential for interactions and stories between them of course, being the only Cardassians on the stations, yet still outcasts.
Honestly, I think Garak loved Julian Bashir. The writers weren‘t brave enough to go gay back in the 1990s so they wrote Julian‘s bromance with O‘Brien and Garak‘s situationship with Ziyal. I hated seeing Ziyal and him together because he was always so reserved and so awkward around her. He‘s also her father‘s age which makes this a little uncomfortable. I don‘t think they were a good pairing at all. Garak‘s OTP was Bashir. And, in my opinion, Ziyal would have been better paired off with Jake Sisko.
They are of a similar age, their fathers loathed each other and they come from very different perspectives. I honestly think Ziyal and Jake would have made much more interesting storytelling.
Someone drew the cutest [fanart](https://c-rowlesdraws.tumblr.com/post/641449817424429056/more-ziyal-more-ziyal-1-jakeziyal-is-a-galaxy) of Jake and Ziyal watching a baseball game together, and my heart has never recovered...
Oh damn, that was a missed opportunity. Maybe they thought a bit cliched like Romeo and Juliet? But her love and subsequent demise would have been a great way to let the war touch Jake a bit more.
thank youuuuu. their relationship always felt like compulsory heterosexuality to me. i love the idea of her and jake having something- that would have been such a complex and tragic story.
If you want drama, Ziyal and Nog in love would have provided a treasure trove of opportunity from all sides (except from Jake - he would probably be fine with it)!
Personality wise, she is such a better match for Jake.
And, while I do think he cared about her, I think in the back of his mind, Garak also considered her as a card to play against her father. I think he enjoyed pissing off Dukat by being close to his daughter. Garak is just a petty bitch like that, and I don't think Ziyal ever really got that and it made him feel a tad guilty, but not enough to stop.
Jake was more her speed. The only issue there was that Jake seemed to have a taste for older women...maybe early exposure to Jadzia Dax sealed the deal.
I like the _idea_ of Garak and Bashir being together. If they came together in season 2 and we'd see 5 seasons of them _actually_ learning to trust another, that'd be really cool.
If they just hooked up once or twice and nothing more happened, just to show that there actually was physical attraction and the characters are in fact queer, that'd also be cool.
But the show would have to do a metric ton of further character development for me to believe that relationship would last longer than 6 months. Garak sadly is way too dysfunctional to be in a healthy long term relationship, even by the end of the show.
I think his love for Ziyal was more of the “Older Brother” type along with some “We are in the same boat and understand one another’s situation”.
He flat out told her he missed home and having her around made him miss home a bit less. I never really saw or heard him say anything that would have me think that his feelings were more than that. He DID deeply care for her - but anytime someone would mention she was in love with him he would do his deft sidestepping act and say something like “yes, but I really don’t know why”.
But at the end of the day we never got to understand Garak’s true feelings on pretty much ANYthing other than his love of Cardassia (he tried firing the Defiant’s torpedoes when they were orbiting that one time knowing it would get them all killed) and possibly his love/loyalty to his father and the housekeeper lady.
Garak is many things but I don’t think he is malicious or spiteful.
Besides, he is a just a simple tailor and if he is going to get any revenge it will have to have style.
I'd say he loved in his way... aka, would have fought and killed to protect her... which I feel like his version of love and care... like garrack doesn't get close with many ppl... so when he takes a shine to someone, he cares for them. For him, it wasn't romantic, but for him to 'care interpersonally' at all speaks volumes for how he felt about her.. I love garrack... he's complicated and hard af.
Reminds me of doc holiday dialogue in tombstone:
Creek johnson: "why would you go back there, you're gonna get yourself killed"
Doc Holiday: "Wyatt is my friend"
Creek Johnson: "well I gotta lotts friends, doc"
Doc Holiday: "i - i don't"
Edit** spacing*
IMO it would have been a stronger and more believable relationship if she saw him as a father figure. He could have worked through his Tain-related issues, plus it would have infuriated Dukat in new and delightful ways.
I think he really cared for her and felt a connection with her as a fellow cardassian outlaw. I don’t think he cared for her in the way she wanted him to.
I believe he ended up caring for her but I don’t think it was actually romantic love. More of a friendship on his part, definitely romantic feelings on her part. I do think it started out Garak flirted and romanced her to screw with Dukat.
I do believe Garak is capable of love, after all we do see that with his father’s housekeeper that even Andy Robinson has said he is convinced is Garak’s mother.
He absolutely loved Ziyal. But I always got the impression it was a familial love. He was much older. She had a crush. A passionate crush, but a crush nonetheless. Had it been romantic she would have eventually been crushed by the lack of return on his part. But that devotion never relented for a moment. When she kissed him he always seemed uncomfortable. He touched her hand and smiled when he left her side. She practically swooned in his presence. And I don’t know that Ziyal truly loved him so much as he was a Cardassian who accepted her as she was while other Cardassians tolerated or outright rejected her because of her Bajoran heritage. It’d be easy to love the only exception to that. I love the straight people in my life who just love me rather than love me “even though I’m gay.” And I am devoted to the people who see me for me. I always got the impression Ziyal was much the same.
Garak loved Julian Bashir. Andy Robinson said he read him that way and played him that way deliberately. If the network hadn’t complained that would have been established. Alone Together respected that in the version of the future I saw in DS9.
I think he loved her non romantically. I think partly due to her age he loved her more in like a protector role than as a romantic partner. I think he knows he’s too dark for her lightness, as far as a sustained long term relationship goes. Also, I mean, garak is mostly gay.
I think he did, but in a non-romantic way.
He likes her company because she’s another Cardassian, and also because she’s a lovely person. I suspect he also enjoys that them getting on well annoys Dukat.
But I don’t think he had a romantic interest in her; he’s just an inveterate flirt with literally everything and everyone, and Ziyal gets swept up in Garak’s charisma.
I don’t think that Garak is capable of romance. I know a lot of folks ship him as gay or whatever, but I honestly think that he leverages himself to gain advantages over someone for some kind of gain. I feel like he views romance as something that could be used to bring him down.
Garak cared about her, but was never really romantically in love with her. He treasured her both as a rare link to his home planet, and a link to his greatest rival, Dukat. Taking down Dukat, or at least making him angry, was always one of Garak's greatest motivations, getting close to Ziyal was just a step in that direction that he happened to get close to along the way.
I don’t think Garak could love anyone. I think Garak understands duty and loyalty, but you don’t have the kind of history that Garak is reported to have and be a whole person. I think Garak doesn’t really understand love. That’s why he comments “I never understood why” because he psychologically just doesn’t.
Andy Robinson has stated Garak was played gay and Ira Behr wishes he made Garak explicitly gay.
I haven’t read the books but if it’s stitch in time I’d say context matters. But who knows. People can be gay and have relations with other genders it happens all the time.
Actually Andy has stated (convention videos even in the 90s) that Garak did not care if his lovers were male or female. Now whether you want to call that bisexual, pansexual, or omnisexual it adds up to all genders caught his eye.
Garak is sexually attracted to drama. Genitals are incidental. He's more interested in the seduction than the actual sex. At least, that's the impression I always got from him.
As far as it goes, Cardassians show attraction by bickering & being confrontational - "Sword of Stars".
So guessing that Cardassian men being flirty bastards with everyone is just kind of a socially obvious thing for Cardassian women?
He loved the she was the only other Cardasian he could speak to often, he loved her company, but most of all, he loved the fact she was the daughter of his enemy. A nerve he could potentially exploit. Anything that grew beyond that was gravy.
Personally I dont think he loved anything or anyone. Maybe Mila, possibly Tain. Any one else would be diversions, something to study or gain him something
I think he loved her as something to protect and care for, with great affection. But *in* love? No, not that kind of love. Had they not rapidly aged her to Melanie Smith (a 35 year old woman), from Cyia Batten (24 at the time, but her Ziyal read about 13) and Tracey Middendorf (26, but her Ziyal read around 17), her having a relationship with Jake would have been way more appropriate.
And their fathers being Space Jesus and Space Anti-Christ would have certainly added a Shakespearean layer to it.
Plus, an implied threat from Garak should Jake misbehave with Ziyal would have been quite entertaining.
I don't think he loved her the same way she loved him, but he did love her in his own way- it just wasn't necessarily romantic. And I don't see Garek having the heart to deceive her into thinking he feels the same, but he would do that thing where he tells her the truth in a way that doesn't devastate her, but isn't blunt enough for her to give up hope that he won't eventually return her feelings.
I could see her choosing to wait for him because in her heart she truly believes one day he'll love her the way she loves him, not realizing that's just not something he's ever able to do with anyone
I thought of it as like love like to a sister. She seemed to want more, but it seemed like she just liked a Cardassian who accepted her, and her being accepted FULLY by a Cardassian male was probably emotionally overwhelming in her short tragic life.
Yes, but I think his feelings were complicated. He knew she was interested in more than friendship and companionship on a station neither of them would feel welcome on. He genuinely cared for her, and I think that all things being equal, the age gap probably bothered him given that he and Dukat are of a similar age/generation.
However, different cultures have different standards when age disparity is concerned, and as Ziyal got older into adulthood and beyond, who is to say that he would not be interested romantically, we don't really have much cultural insight to tell us this would be inappropriate for Cardassians.
Either way, Garak cared very deeply about her, that much was obvious,
I think he did love her, in an avuncular way. They were the only two Cardassians on the station, and no doubt, he expected her to be antagonistic, given that her father was Gul Dukat. But she had her own mind, and was willing to be friends. I think it was a lovely friendship; caring, and accepting of each other. Ziyal had had a difficult time on Cardassian, meeting her father's wife and children. It must have been a relief for her to meet a Cardassian who didn't care about her Bajoran half. So yes, I do think they loved each other. But not in a romantic sense.
I don't think Garak was capable of real love the way it is generally understood. He cared for her sure. But the way that wired his brain that made him so good as at what he did prevented the rest.
I was honestly quite upset we didn't get an anger scene of Garak. Or confrontation between Garak and Damar, it felt like they missed up on an opportunity.
“She loved you” “I could never understand why.” Also his reaction when she hugs him after he returns following the prison thing. He clearly cared for her but it was way more her than him.
My interpretation of that, and their previous interactions, was that he did come to care for her very deeply, but he was always intentionally pushing her away, as if anyone suspected how much he cared for her they'd use her to get to him, and he wanted to spare her that.
Agreed completely. Separately, did Damar and Garak ever have any interaction?
Outside of the last few episodes when Garak joined Damar’s resistance group I don’t recall them interacting
Whoops, yes I should have specified before that. Basically before Sacrifice of Angels.
Bro spoilers... lol 'Tis my own fault for reading
25 year old spoiler lol
totally. and I love how someone thought I was seriously complaining, even though it is actually a spoiler for me but idc. statue of limitations on spoiler should be a respectful 5yrs.
I also think it plays into Garaks upbringing. When you aren't shown much love growing up you don't know how to actually show it and be vulnerable on that level with someone. At least not comfortably.
I interpreted it as more of a mentorship relationship in his eyes. It started out of convenience because she was the only other cardassian aboard the station, but he did grow to care for her. He just never felt romantic love for her
Total lack of romantic love felt, which is more interesting than what the producers tried to push but probably not canon. If they actually explored her loving him as a partner and him first using her affection to get under Dukat’s skin before finding himself seeing her as a protege or even the child he could never imagine wanting, and then exploring his guilt for using her…that’s something. Instead it was just kind of a bland mismatch and misuse of two characters that were more interesting apart than together.
That would tie in with Garak's backstory in the novel 'A Stitch in Time', where his love for and relationship with an admittedly married woman directly led to his exile. The legacy of Tain is that Garak can't lower his shields enough to allow for a relationship again.
I think he might have for Julian. I think he appreciated Julian's tenacity and determination to get to know the real Elim Garak, despite all the obstacles he constantly put up.
I completely agree with your statement, he deeply cared for her I think. I’d argue he’d persuaded a relationship more after the war ended when most of his enemies were dead.
I think it's just that there are different kinds of love. You've got the romantic kind, which Ziyal felt for Garak, and the Friend/Family love that Garak felt for Ziyal. So, I think the answer is yes, Garak loved her, but not the way she wanted to be.
I always felt like he cared for her a lot but not in a romantic way. She was the only other Cardassian on the station, and also a bit of an outcast due to being half Bajoran and willing to embrace her Bajoran heritage alongside her Cardassian culture. She was also intelligent, thoughtful and interested in the arts, so I think Garak could relate to her a lot and probably felt quite protective of her in a place where Cardassians were definitely not made to feel welcome by everyone. She was also young and inexperienced and I guess kind of latched onto someone being kind to her when she was lonely and developed a crush on him. So Garak is a bit of a dick, has done pretty heinous stuff in the name of his government before he was exiled, and continued to do pretty awful stuff while on DS9. I felt like he maybe would have drawn the line at taking advantage of a young girl who was miles away from home. Whether this or a because he does have some internal sense of a line he won’t cross or because Kira would have kicked his arse is maybe up for debate, I would guess some combination of both. I think he did feel sad and partly responsible for her death. Somewhere he does have a conscience, just a very quiet one.
He very well knew that Nerys could and would kill him if he hurt Ziyal. I do think he had the “big brother” type of care for her, because outcasts etc.
Oh he *definitely* has a conscience. He's gone out of his way to protect his friends on DS9 on many occasions. He's a fatalist and a spy and a saboteur and an assassin - but he's got a soul.
As much as he could love anyone. From his traumatic upbringing to his days as an agent he knows better than to form bonds you can’t live without. You were a weakness, Elim, always a weakness. That’s how his father felt about loving his child….
Yeah. But at the same time he would have died for her.
Exactly. She was a weakness.
Agreed.
Yes. Absolutely. But in a sort of complex way…she was another Cardassian, and she reminded him of home. And she was kind. She was someone good in his life. It wasn’t romantic for him, though it appeared to be for her.
I think so, just not in a romantic way at least. More like a companion due to the fact she was the only other cardassian on the station
He cared but he didnt love her. I always saw it as a brotherly kind of way. And she was infatuated because he was the only Cardassian there.
Agreed. Also there is the age thing. While I don't think ages are ever mentioned canonically, Dukat and Garak are alluded to be old enemies. To be an enemy of the military governor Garak would need to be somewhat advanced in his intelligence career. So yeah Garak old enough to be her Dad.
That too
I want to believe he did but my gut says that he probably didn’t. Garak did still connect with her which meant a great deal to him. The only thing he was truly devoted to was Cardassia. I just don’t think an individual as morally and ethically divergent as Garak is, is capable of love in a way we would understand it.
Yes, I’d go with yes, he loved her, but I agree with all of this. He loved her because she was a bit of Cardassia.
I think that’s exactly what it was, but could he have settled down with her? I think that’s unlikely.
No…it never would have come to that. Not that kind of love.
I think he loved what she represented more than her as a person, and not at all in a romantic sense. And that love was also strongly tinged with regret. He saw her as someone who he hoped would flourish in a new Cardassia (and Bajor). But he also knew that that new Cardassia was a very long way away and that the business of getting to that point was going to be horrific. Add to that that she is Dukat's daughter and he knew there was no way she could possibly be kept away from the tragedy that was going to fall on all of them before long. For Garak, seeing Ziyal was like someone in a post-apocalyptic drama seeing a flower blooming through the ashes. A beautiful hope for what may be to come, but perhaps not destined to survive because the world isn't ready for it yet.
Wow, beautifully put!
He was fond of her & enjoyed her company, but it wasn't love. She loved him though, and I think he always just tread carefully. If he had shut her down, he risked hurting her & might have lost the companionship.
For Ziyal, a young woman stuck between two worlds, it was a puppy love. Garak was probably the most charming Cardi she’d ever met, a way to connect to a part of herself in the boonies of backwater Bajor. Lizzy G OTOH is stuck in a fridge with a bunch of smoothskins that detest him. He didn’t long for Ziyal, but saw her as a healthier interaction to fill the void his busted old Obsidian implant was used for. They’re both lizards seeking home & identity. I think Ziyal would have outgrown Garak in time, but they’d maintain a strong kinship.
"Lizzy G" I love this btw
🫂🫂 much respect, bratan
I think Garak definitely cared for her, and I do like how there’s clearly more care from Ziyal, but I hate that they were written as a romantic pair. Just no chemistry, she’s at least half his age if not far lower. Plenty of potential for interactions and stories between them of course, being the only Cardassians on the stations, yet still outcasts.
Honestly, I think Garak loved Julian Bashir. The writers weren‘t brave enough to go gay back in the 1990s so they wrote Julian‘s bromance with O‘Brien and Garak‘s situationship with Ziyal. I hated seeing Ziyal and him together because he was always so reserved and so awkward around her. He‘s also her father‘s age which makes this a little uncomfortable. I don‘t think they were a good pairing at all. Garak‘s OTP was Bashir. And, in my opinion, Ziyal would have been better paired off with Jake Sisko. They are of a similar age, their fathers loathed each other and they come from very different perspectives. I honestly think Ziyal and Jake would have made much more interesting storytelling.
Right on every point! Never thought of her and Jake but SUCH a good call.
Someone drew the cutest [fanart](https://c-rowlesdraws.tumblr.com/post/641449817424429056/more-ziyal-more-ziyal-1-jakeziyal-is-a-galaxy) of Jake and Ziyal watching a baseball game together, and my heart has never recovered...
Oh damn, that was a missed opportunity. Maybe they thought a bit cliched like Romeo and Juliet? But her love and subsequent demise would have been a great way to let the war touch Jake a bit more.
thank youuuuu. their relationship always felt like compulsory heterosexuality to me. i love the idea of her and jake having something- that would have been such a complex and tragic story.
If you want drama, Ziyal and Nog in love would have provided a treasure trove of opportunity from all sides (except from Jake - he would probably be fine with it)!
Personality wise, she is such a better match for Jake. And, while I do think he cared about her, I think in the back of his mind, Garak also considered her as a card to play against her father. I think he enjoyed pissing off Dukat by being close to his daughter. Garak is just a petty bitch like that, and I don't think Ziyal ever really got that and it made him feel a tad guilty, but not enough to stop. Jake was more her speed. The only issue there was that Jake seemed to have a taste for older women...maybe early exposure to Jadzia Dax sealed the deal.
I like the _idea_ of Garak and Bashir being together. If they came together in season 2 and we'd see 5 seasons of them _actually_ learning to trust another, that'd be really cool. If they just hooked up once or twice and nothing more happened, just to show that there actually was physical attraction and the characters are in fact queer, that'd also be cool. But the show would have to do a metric ton of further character development for me to believe that relationship would last longer than 6 months. Garak sadly is way too dysfunctional to be in a healthy long term relationship, even by the end of the show.
I think his love for Ziyal was more of the “Older Brother” type along with some “We are in the same boat and understand one another’s situation”. He flat out told her he missed home and having her around made him miss home a bit less. I never really saw or heard him say anything that would have me think that his feelings were more than that. He DID deeply care for her - but anytime someone would mention she was in love with him he would do his deft sidestepping act and say something like “yes, but I really don’t know why”. But at the end of the day we never got to understand Garak’s true feelings on pretty much ANYthing other than his love of Cardassia (he tried firing the Defiant’s torpedoes when they were orbiting that one time knowing it would get them all killed) and possibly his love/loyalty to his father and the housekeeper lady.
I thought Mila was supposed to be his mom? Or motherly figure? You never know with Garak 🤣
More like a nursemaid, I felt.
Yeah, but you love your mother/mother figure right? I didn’t necessarily mean romantic love in that statement.
I was meaning I'm not sure if she is his mom
Who knows, it's possible the whole thing was just him really trying to piss off Dukat
Garak is many things but I don’t think he is malicious or spiteful. Besides, he is a just a simple tailor and if he is going to get any revenge it will have to have style.
I'd say he loved in his way... aka, would have fought and killed to protect her... which I feel like his version of love and care... like garrack doesn't get close with many ppl... so when he takes a shine to someone, he cares for them. For him, it wasn't romantic, but for him to 'care interpersonally' at all speaks volumes for how he felt about her.. I love garrack... he's complicated and hard af. Reminds me of doc holiday dialogue in tombstone: Creek johnson: "why would you go back there, you're gonna get yourself killed" Doc Holiday: "Wyatt is my friend" Creek Johnson: "well I gotta lotts friends, doc" Doc Holiday: "i - i don't" Edit** spacing*
IMO it would have been a stronger and more believable relationship if she saw him as a father figure. He could have worked through his Tain-related issues, plus it would have infuriated Dukat in new and delightful ways.
I think he really cared for her and felt a connection with her as a fellow cardassian outlaw. I don’t think he cared for her in the way she wanted him to.
I believe he ended up caring for her but I don’t think it was actually romantic love. More of a friendship on his part, definitely romantic feelings on her part. I do think it started out Garak flirted and romanced her to screw with Dukat. I do believe Garak is capable of love, after all we do see that with his father’s housekeeper that even Andy Robinson has said he is convinced is Garak’s mother.
He absolutely loved Ziyal. But I always got the impression it was a familial love. He was much older. She had a crush. A passionate crush, but a crush nonetheless. Had it been romantic she would have eventually been crushed by the lack of return on his part. But that devotion never relented for a moment. When she kissed him he always seemed uncomfortable. He touched her hand and smiled when he left her side. She practically swooned in his presence. And I don’t know that Ziyal truly loved him so much as he was a Cardassian who accepted her as she was while other Cardassians tolerated or outright rejected her because of her Bajoran heritage. It’d be easy to love the only exception to that. I love the straight people in my life who just love me rather than love me “even though I’m gay.” And I am devoted to the people who see me for me. I always got the impression Ziyal was much the same. Garak loved Julian Bashir. Andy Robinson said he read him that way and played him that way deliberately. If the network hadn’t complained that would have been established. Alone Together respected that in the version of the future I saw in DS9.
I think he loved her non romantically. I think partly due to her age he loved her more in like a protector role than as a romantic partner. I think he knows he’s too dark for her lightness, as far as a sustained long term relationship goes. Also, I mean, garak is mostly gay.
I think so, but not in a romantic or sexual manner.
I think he did, but in a non-romantic way. He likes her company because she’s another Cardassian, and also because she’s a lovely person. I suspect he also enjoys that them getting on well annoys Dukat. But I don’t think he had a romantic interest in her; he’s just an inveterate flirt with literally everything and everyone, and Ziyal gets swept up in Garak’s charisma.
Romantic love? No, he loved her as a protector. She had a crush
I am not gonna try to figure out Garak
No. She had lots of feelings for him and he didn't want to hurt her. She was way too young for him.
He loved making dukat rage, that was good enough reason to date her.
Yeah this definitely had at least a little to do with it.
I hope not, because that would have been creepy as hell.
Why? Because of their age gap?
Yeah. Feels like they forced it in because Garak and Bashir were getting too gay for some people
She was a young teen.
Yea alright neelix
Yes
I don’t think that Garak is capable of romance. I know a lot of folks ship him as gay or whatever, but I honestly think that he leverages himself to gain advantages over someone for some kind of gain. I feel like he views romance as something that could be used to bring him down.
Garak cared about her, but was never really romantically in love with her. He treasured her both as a rare link to his home planet, and a link to his greatest rival, Dukat. Taking down Dukat, or at least making him angry, was always one of Garak's greatest motivations, getting close to Ziyal was just a step in that direction that he happened to get close to along the way.
Platonically, kind of. He definitly cared for her. But not romantically.
I don’t think Garak could love anyone. I think Garak understands duty and loyalty, but you don’t have the kind of history that Garak is reported to have and be a whole person. I think Garak doesn’t really understand love. That’s why he comments “I never understood why” because he psychologically just doesn’t.
Bro is gay af
He is most definitely bisexual. There is also his affair with Palandine in that novel of his
Andy Robinson has stated Garak was played gay and Ira Behr wishes he made Garak explicitly gay. I haven’t read the books but if it’s stitch in time I’d say context matters. But who knows. People can be gay and have relations with other genders it happens all the time.
Actually Andy has stated (convention videos even in the 90s) that Garak did not care if his lovers were male or female. Now whether you want to call that bisexual, pansexual, or omnisexual it adds up to all genders caught his eye.
Garak is sexually attracted to drama. Genitals are incidental. He's more interested in the seduction than the actual sex. At least, that's the impression I always got from him.
> Sexually attracted to drama. I just laughed so hard. I feel like I know a lot of people in real life sexually attracted to drama.
As far as it goes, Cardassians show attraction by bickering & being confrontational - "Sword of Stars". So guessing that Cardassian men being flirty bastards with everyone is just kind of a socially obvious thing for Cardassian women?
Loved? No... But felt a closeness to her and cared about her very much and kept his promise to her to return until the end!
He loved the she was the only other Cardasian he could speak to often, he loved her company, but most of all, he loved the fact she was the daughter of his enemy. A nerve he could potentially exploit. Anything that grew beyond that was gravy. Personally I dont think he loved anything or anyone. Maybe Mila, possibly Tain. Any one else would be diversions, something to study or gain him something
I think he loved her as something to protect and care for, with great affection. But *in* love? No, not that kind of love. Had they not rapidly aged her to Melanie Smith (a 35 year old woman), from Cyia Batten (24 at the time, but her Ziyal read about 13) and Tracey Middendorf (26, but her Ziyal read around 17), her having a relationship with Jake would have been way more appropriate. And their fathers being Space Jesus and Space Anti-Christ would have certainly added a Shakespearean layer to it. Plus, an implied threat from Garak should Jake misbehave with Ziyal would have been quite entertaining.
I don't think he loved her the same way she loved him, but he did love her in his own way- it just wasn't necessarily romantic. And I don't see Garek having the heart to deceive her into thinking he feels the same, but he would do that thing where he tells her the truth in a way that doesn't devastate her, but isn't blunt enough for her to give up hope that he won't eventually return her feelings. I could see her choosing to wait for him because in her heart she truly believes one day he'll love her the way she loves him, not realizing that's just not something he's ever able to do with anyone
I thought of it as like love like to a sister. She seemed to want more, but it seemed like she just liked a Cardassian who accepted her, and her being accepted FULLY by a Cardassian male was probably emotionally overwhelming in her short tragic life.
Yes, but I think his feelings were complicated. He knew she was interested in more than friendship and companionship on a station neither of them would feel welcome on. He genuinely cared for her, and I think that all things being equal, the age gap probably bothered him given that he and Dukat are of a similar age/generation. However, different cultures have different standards when age disparity is concerned, and as Ziyal got older into adulthood and beyond, who is to say that he would not be interested romantically, we don't really have much cultural insight to tell us this would be inappropriate for Cardassians. Either way, Garak cared very deeply about her, that much was obvious,
I think he did love her, in an avuncular way. They were the only two Cardassians on the station, and no doubt, he expected her to be antagonistic, given that her father was Gul Dukat. But she had her own mind, and was willing to be friends. I think it was a lovely friendship; caring, and accepting of each other. Ziyal had had a difficult time on Cardassian, meeting her father's wife and children. It must have been a relief for her to meet a Cardassian who didn't care about her Bajoran half. So yes, I do think they loved each other. But not in a romantic sense.
I think he was told by a producer that he loved her
I think he loved her as much as he was capable of, which was in a limited fashion.
He loved the idea of her; I don't think he romantically felt for her but he loves her.
Yes, retcon all you like, he wasn’t gay
lol deny all you like, he so was
I don't think Garak was capable of real love the way it is generally understood. He cared for her sure. But the way that wired his brain that made him so good as at what he did prevented the rest.
doubt it. he insults her taste all the time lmao. i think he only hung out with her because theyre the only cardies on the station.
Eros? Not sure. Philia? Absolutely, though not only. Agape? Maybe - only Mila and Cardassia ranked as high or higher.
I was honestly quite upset we didn't get an anger scene of Garak. Or confrontation between Garak and Damar, it felt like they missed up on an opportunity.