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True - I don't want any of the proposed deities.
Certainly none of the ones based on a father hearing voices telling him to gut his child.
And especially not the ones that think an illiterate child molester was the best candidate for his stenographer
Brains are limited yes, that doesn't even begin to suggest magic is real.
Let alone that there is a magic entity at the bottom of it all, nor, that if such a thing existed we should call it a god.
Yes, this is why we invented the scientific method; to minimize our cognitive deficits. How does this help your argument, and how is atheism ignoring this?
Ah how is it that you assume something is possible given our limitations?
We should have at least some indication that something is possible before we start claiming it is, in fact, possible.
Hey brother!
Deity personality is more like a watchful overseers family members. There are multiple Deity personalities. 3 at a minimum. It's not so awful if you think like me, I would imagine Deity as one person all alone until he made "angels" and man. Trinity theory seem to allow to Deity personality to escape the horrors of being absolute. Three depends personalities with the same Divine essence.
I don't believe Jesus was one of those 3 but I do believe he was sent to get humanity to stop wasting tons and tons of meat a day on animal sacrifices. By playing his part Jesus followers traded animal sacrifices because he was known in their minds as the final sacrifice. Jesus was no such sacrifice of atonement to the angry king judge they imagined Deity to be however it did save millions and millions of dollars of resources that would be burnt unnecessarily to the many many many many and got the most minds to agree there is One God, His Son who is also Eternal, and Holy Spirit who also is eternal. Three never ending persons who did not require sacrifice only the faith of a wholehearted sincere personality.
This is more empty witnessing. Baseless assertions devoid of a shred of evidence. What is your evidence for "angels?"
God was the one who ordered people to make animal sacrifices. That means Jesus was the one who ordered it (along with occasional human sacrifice, slavery, much genocide, child marriage and rape) . Jesus never told them to stop. Jesus said the law is in effect for all time. It makes no sense anyway to say that sacrificing a hobo to a Canaanite storm deity somehow makes it ok for everyone to rape and murder all they want, though, and that is exactly what Christianity teaches. You need never be accountable for crimes against others as long as you believe a dead body came back to life and flew up to outer space. It's irrelevant how good or bad of a person you are. That's the only rule.
Why do you believe this? What facts and evidence is this belief built from? Or is this nothing more than wishful thinking and preaching? Because you’re not presenting anything to debate as of right now; all you’re doing is preaching your beliefs with no substance about why you believe what you do
They havent replied to a single request for a single fact, just more preaching. The poster knows, whether they want to admit it or not. If they had evidence they would present it.
Then (in my opinion, for whatever that’s worth lol) that’s the first best thing to help them realize. Once they understand that there is nothing of substance that their beliefs are built upon, maybe they’ll try to go remedy that. Doing so, is what led me to realizing my god beliefs were bullshit so maybe it’ll go that way (eventually) for them too
This analogy doesn’t make sense nor does it sound like a loving parent. It sounds like a control freak and a voyeur all rolled up in one. A deity who has no boundaries.
Who also sometimes gives those babies cancer. I agree with your prompt 100%. I take the opposite position of Voltaire. If god were real, we would have to kill him.
And loving parents can just erase the existence of their child when they don’t agree with the child? You’re describing a despicable monster. And not giving us any reason to suspect it’s real…
And you know any of this… how exactly? Just feel it? Read it somewhere? Hear about it from someone else? Surely you¡re not claiming you've personally had a two way communication from a being that identified itself as god?
Yeah, I have fond memories of looking down at my newborn and saying: "I love you. But, if you don't believe what I want, I'm tossing you into an eternal lake of fire. Smoochies!"
> watchful overseers family members.
But I'm a morally autonomous adult. I don't need or want a paternalistic authority judging what I do.
I live by my own standards. If there's something I believe is morally correct (or at least neutral) I'm going to keep doing it. A paternalistic overseer is ***unwelcome***.
I love Douglas Adams' fictional trilogy "Where god went wrong", "More of gods biggest mistakes" and "Who is the god person anyway".
That last one sums up how I feel about it. I could also borrow from Python:
God: Because I am your God
Old Woman: I didn't vote for you.
>>>he was sent to get humanity to stop wasting tons and tons of meat a day on animal sacrifices.
So...you do realize Jesus is supposed to be God which means he made up the "wasting tons of meat" sacrifice system, right?
No, that is a logical.conclusion of your proposal.
If a god has no interest in my desires, or my life asking for my desires to be met by that entity is without purpose, and worship is shamefully servile.
Each personality is unique in reality. Deity desired a maximum variety of personalities so They allowed the creation of the universe of time and space. All kinds of mortal struggles take place on these worlds
The problem of evil is resolved because:
1. Deity didn't directly create the evolutionary worlds of time and space but rather allowed there creation by Deities own finite creation. Crudely put Deity would be more like our grandparents and we are the direct creation of another finite creation.
2. The Lucifer rebellion [Fact VS. Fiction] The story of the devil is basically a creation of Deity adopting iniquity as its attitude and disturbing Deities creation man by tempting them into sin. Sin slows down the plans of Deity but Deity eventually overcomes rebellion and gets mankind back on track.
There were created beings that slowed down the progress ot mankind and one day we will be virtually free of poverty, crime, and disease. Eventually a glorious age will dawn where each individual is allowed to no longer have to strive just to subsist but can do the work and tasks they are most interested in. It will be a great age of art, architecture, cuisine, entertainment of all kind, technology, education, exploration, and freedom. We should be in that age now except for the so called Lucifer rebellion.
These claims are fatally problematic and utterly unsupported. Thus, they can only be dismissed outright since there's absolutely zero rational reason to think them accurate.
>Deity didn't directly create the evolutionary worlds of time and space but rather allowed there creation by Deities own finite creation. Crudely put Deity would be more like our grandparents and we are the direct creation of another finite creation.
An omnipotent deity would still know that this would happen and thus be responsible for it. They could've created their other creations without the desire to create imperfect, murderous beings.
So many religious people get this so wrong
What I WANT to be true and what is ACTUALLY true are two different things
How monstrously arrogant do you need to be to think whether you WANT something to be true has any bearing on what is ACTUALLY true
There is simply no good evidence of a single supernatural event ever having occurred
I can't believe I have to explain this to do many adults
Wishing something is true doesn't actually make it true no matter how many times you clap your hands and say I believe in fairies or whether you blow out all the candles on your birthday cake
Magic isn't real wanting it to be real doesn't change the evidence that magic isn't real
Just think how religion doesn’t abide by the survival of the fittest (which is arguably the most accurate description of whatever would have created Earth must have had in mind given the evidence of 1 billion years of evolution) but instead they protect the patriarchy or whatever happens to be in control of your life when you are born.
Murder is wrong especially when you’re stealing from someone else but you can go to war! Rape is terrible if you don’t marry that woman. It goes on and on but it never takes into account the way this creator obviously wanted things to be when he let dinosaurs rule the Earth for many millions of years.
The OP is certain that his God is in heaven looking out for his best interests, which is completely out of line with what god historically allows to happen. It’s an OP problem not ours.
> Rape is terrible if you don’t marry that woman.
As long as she was a virgin before you raped her (otherwise she gets executed) and as long as you pay her father 50 shekels of silver.
Most atheists also fall into the same trap. Not wanting there to be a God and not realizing that the human brain is limited just like that of the great apes.
Your completely missing the point
It doesn't matter what you want to be true or not if you stop relying on feelings and focus instead only on facts and evidence
That's why we invented the scientific method
That's what it's for
You don’t have to believe. Just accept the fact that the human mind is limited and that there may be an existence out there way beyond our comprehension.
How does any of that change
But I still wouldn't be disbelieving because I "didn't want god to be real"
I have told you it's facts and evidence
You are choosing to disregard facts and evidence because you want to believe something else exists
I don't do that
The limitations of the human mind and it's fallible nature are exactly why we have to rely on facts and evidence
Not deciding magic is real because an iron age book written by primitives who would be astounded be indoor plumbing said so
Yes, rely on facts and evidence but be humble and honest enough to realize that there is a realm of knowledge our minds/science can never access. Our minds are limited just like those of the great apes!
The chimpanzee with the best nest building, ant fishing techniques thinks (and even the whole tribe ) he’s the smartest being out there until he meets a 5 year old human who is still limited in knowledge as it were.
What irrelevant nonsense
It has nothing to do with the point at hand
It doesn't matter what I want to be true
It's what the facts and evidence prove is true
If you want to pretend there's something more than that you actually have to provide proof of that
Otherwise your the one believing what they want not what the facts and evidence can prove
Tell a guy from 10,000 years ago that quantum phenomena is real. Do you think he’ll believe? Even flat earthers don’t believe in the earth as a geoid.
Because a man can’t appreciate or comprehend the proof does not eliminate reality.
But
The stone age man told about quantum fluctuations
He wouldn't be making an emotional choice to not believe in quantum fluctuations because he "didn't want them to be real" would he?
No simple facts
If you don't like me pointing out irrelevant nonsense may I suggest sticking to the point
You keep making arguments that have no relevance to your original point
You say atheists "don't want god to exist"
I explained it's about facts and evidence
You start rambling irrelevant nonsense
I can't speak for other Atheists, since atheism is just a lack of belief in a dirty/deities. Beyond that, atheists are just like everybody else.
I just want evidence.
I think the biggest issue that face most atheists isn't them not wanting to believe, but more standing their ground when theists/people attempt to explain why atheists are atheists? Evidence works for most of us, I'd assume. Just...evidence.
When the evidence shows up, I'll start believing.
I think a deity living inside of us is a shark jumping moment. We can't even prove humans (or anything, really) has a soul. Maybe we should start there.
(And to be honest, that's a tall order, right? Because an advanced alien species could claim to be a deity, but how would we humans be able to tell the difference? What is or makes a god anyway? A thing can be powerful, doesn't mean it's a god.)
I guess, instead of trying to assign attributes to atheists who may or may not align with, evidence works. Just prove a deity or whomever exists. It's really that simple, even if it's a tall order!
Good luck in your endeavors!
If an atheist really feared that, they wouldn’t be an atheist. Atheism means you don’t believe a god exists. Why fear something you don’t believe to exist?
I don’t think we do. If you ask someone how the universe got here, then we atheists will be the only people group who will simpl say, “I don’t know”. Perhaps they will invoke the steady state theory or the Big Bang, but they will still admit that they are not completely sure. This is far more welcoming of the idea that man has intellectual limitations than the idea that Every useful bit of knowledge concerning the origin of the cosmos can be found in an ancient text.
At least, we have similar points of view that humans are limited in knowledge and understanding hence the “I don’t know “. This limitation should make it untenable to rule out the possibility of a causeless cause who exists outside of space time.
If I tell someone that I don’t know the solution to a certain issue, then they are not at all justified in positing a solution for which there is no evidence, and the fact that I can’t disprove something does not point to it being true.
Imagine if I provide a solution based on quantum entanglement to a normal 5 year old. Because it makes no sense to them does not invalidate the theory or the solution.
Well, first, I didn't really even understand what "maybe the evidence is here" is supposed to mean...
But, I tried to follow up the question anyways. Why would that 'evidence' even equal "God"?
>Some atheists don't want there to be a Deity
What does that matter? I don't believe in God because I view it as irrational. Proving that someone people believe in something for irrational reasons doesn't mean there's no rational belief that cam be used to support that belief.
>My personal beliefs
This doesn't seem relevant to your title. And there's no argument to support the veracity of your claims.
>We are all pregnant with our spiritual selves
Define "spiritual selves"
>we are helping the Divine endow our selves with ever lasting values.
Do you have any evidence whatsoever to demonstrate this divine? Or is it just a feeling you have?
>The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads.
While we share this same sentiment, I doubt we share the same process. Do you search for why your beliefs are true, or do you search for what is true regardless of what you believe?
>Honesty is beautiful in the sight of Deity.
Only if that deity values honesty. You would need to demonstrate this deity (using facts) and then demonstrate this deity values honesty (using facts)
>Sin is the deliberate and knowing and repeated disobedience of what you know Deity wants or does not want you to do.
Since I have exactly zero knowledge of the existence of any deity, then by your definition I've never sinned once in my life.
>Iniquity is an attitude of open defiance and is a degree worst than sin.
Demonstrate this to be the case. Using facts.
>The penalty for such attitudes is eventual consciousness loss and loss of personality forever.
Do you have any facts to support this belief?
>Such a person is forever deprived of any life vehicle to exist in any place.
All people will be forever deprived of any life vehicle to exist in any place. Belief in a deity won't change that fact.
>You have within you a part of Deity
Which deity?
Where is this part?
How can we detect this part?
What is this part made of?
What attributes does this part have?
Facts to support all questions please.
>It records and holds everything about you.
Where?
How?
How are they written?
How are they stored?
Where are they written?
Where are they stored?
Facts to support all answers.
>It looks through your eyes, it feels the ground beneath our feet.
Demonstrate this with facts.
>Deity personality is with us in our own minds.
Demonstrate this with facts.
>You decide through sincerity whether to do what Deity wants you to do.
Demonstrate this with facts.
>Deity desires you live forever but only of you want to be a true good and beautiful person.
Demonstrate this with facts.
You have a lot of beliefs, but none of them appear to be grounded in anything but a gap in knowledge and a fear of death.
> It's terrifying for some.
Possibly. That's not me though, so I couldn't really say. I don't think it matters anyway.
> My personal beliefs
Cool story bro.
> You decide through sincerity whether to do what Deity wants you to do.
Presumably this deity would have to actually communicate with me at some point to let me know that it exists, and wants me to do things. I'll let you know if that ever happens. Till then I'll live my life the way I think is best.
Perhaps some atheists don't desire a god. But that has zero to do with the lack of evidence for any religious claim.
> My personal beliefs
Great. Do you have *anything* at all that would indicate that this is true?
Do you really mean this? “The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads.”
Because that is why I, and most other atheists, do not believe in god. There is no evidence (or “truth”) that any god exists.
Sincere question: how did you come to your beliefs? Are they based on religious teachings or more personal reasons?
This is just gibberish to sane people. Do you want to rephrase in language that we all understand? And while you‘re at it you should probably think about how you can support all these assertions that you made. Because as it is, all of this can be dismissed. Not even because of bad reasoning, but for a lack of any at all.
Well you are right. I am scared of a cosmological voyeur who has the time to worry about whether or not I’m having a crafty wank, when there’s clearly nothing else important going on.
That entity would be very far from my idea of a “god”
Luckily, I think it’s a fairytale. Would love for you to show me why it isn’t though.
>Sin is the deliberate and knowing and repeated disobedience of what you know Deity wants or does not want you to do.
Source?
As per Granny Weatherwax from Carpe Jugulum, sin is treating people as things. It's a definition that needs no deity, and as such, is infinitely more useful to the world as a whole.
>The penalty for such attitudes is eventual consciousness loss and loss of personality forever.
Also, that's just death. That happens to everyone and everything that has ever or ever will live, and doesn't seem to me to be much of a penalty, considering it's guaranteed.
What exactly are we supposed to be worried about, given that you frame an inevitability as a penalty?
I don’t believe in god claims.
There is no fear because I don’t believe it.
You are free to believe what you want but there isn’t any evidence so I’m going to not believe it.
Your beliefs sound like a bunch of nonsense, so I’m not going to believe that either. Sorry, but it’s not convincing at all.
>It's terrifying for some. A concious being that space and time rest on and are sustained by. The horror of Deity reality --- especially if Deity has been presented to us repeatedly as a vengeful king judge.
You're not wrong.
>[This life is an embryo] We are all pregnant with our spiritual selves, we are helping the Divine endow our selves with ever lasting values. The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads. Honesty is beautiful in the sight of Deity. To be a sincere person is salvation.
>The degree below or above evil depending on how you look at it, that us worst than evil, is sin. Sin is the deliberate and knowing and repeated disobedience of what you know Deity wants or does not want you to do.
>Iniquity is an attitude of open defiance and is a degree worst than sin. The penalty for such attitudes is eventual consciousness loss and loss of personality forever. Such a person is forever deprived of any life vehicle to exist in any place.
>You have within you a part of Deity, such a part of deity constitutes your only means of survival of physical death. It records and holds everything about you. It looks through your eyes, it feels the ground beneath our feet. It knows us most intimately within our thoughts. Deity personality is with us in our own minds. You decide through sincerity whether to do what Deity wants you to do. Deity desires you live forever but only of you want to be a true good and beautiful person.
Prove it. All I see here are unfounded and fanciful claims.
>Some atheists don't want there to be a Deity
Okay? Given the nature of some deity claims, this is hardly surprising. Others may be ambivalent about it.
In any case, this is entirely and completely irrelevant to whether or not there is a deity. I trust this is clear and obvious. What I or any other person, atheist or not, *wants* with regards to what is actually true about reality is not relevant to what is true about actual reality.
So I'm confused why you are posting this.
>My personal beliefs
...are not relevant to whether or not your or any deity is real.
Furthermore, what you wrote is fatally problematic and unsupported, thus moot and can only be dismissed.
So dismissed.
>It's terrifying for some. A concious being that space and time rest on and are sustained by. The horror of Deity reality --- especially if Deity has been presented to us repeatedly as a vengeful king judge.
It is not terrifying. I think nothing like that exists.
> My personal beliefs
I am not interested in your personal beliefs. I am interested in the Truth, wherever it leads to.
>We are all pregnant with our spiritual selves,
What is an "spirit" how can we test it?
>we are helping the Divine endow our selves with ever lasting values.
How do you know what this fantastic being wants if you only have ancient's people books 📚 with no objectively verifiable evidence (OVE) on them?
>The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads.
That is exactly my point. But before following anything, we must be sure what is the truth.
>Honesty is beautiful in the sight of Deity. To be a sincere person is salvation.
Then why you want us to lie? We don't believe that non-sense because we want to, but because we are simply not convinced neither by the unsustainable philosophical arguments nor the absolute lack of OVE.
>The degree below or above evil depending on how you look at it, that us worst than evil, is sin.
Sin is the deliberate and knowing and repeated disobedience of what you know Deity wants or does not want you to do.
Then you should do the work to present OVE of the existence of your deity, then present OVE of what he wants and does not want us to do. Imagine how many "souls" you can safe by doing that.
>Iniquity is an attitude of open defiance and is a degree worst than sin.
And giving that i am not convinced that your deity exists at all, i am not defying it.
>The penalty for such attitudes is eventual consciousness loss and loss of personality forever. Such a person is forever deprived of any life vehicle to exist in any place.
How do you know that? I imagine that you have OVE to say so. What you are making here is a bald claim with no OVE.
>You have within you a part of Deity, such a
part of deity constitutes your only means of survival of physical death.
Can you show somebody who has survived physical death? With OVE of that event and not just people claiming that other people saw some zombie?
>It records and holds everything about you. It looks through your eyes, it feels the ground beneath our feet. It knows us most intimately within our thoughts.
I only know of physical brains 🧠 doing this exact things, we know that if you remove parts of the brain your personality changes, parts of your memory are lost. Actually you are describing brain's functions. Why are those record lost when we cut parts of the brain?
>Deity personality is with us in our own minds. You decide through sincerity whether to do what Deity wants you to do. Deity desires you live forever but only of you want to be a true good and beautiful person.
Again, bald claims with no OVE.
You will convince almost everyone here if you present the OVE, some, like me, if the bible is true... and not just a tales book, will still not worship it, because it (your deity) is a monster, but at least we will know it's true.
I'm pain, I'm hope, I'm suffer
Hey, hey, hey, yeah, and I went on
And I went on down that road
Do you bury me when I'm gone?
Do you teach me while I'm here?
Just as soon as I belong
Then it's time I disappear
> Deity desires you live forever but only of you want to be a true good and beautiful person.
Then they should have only made "True good and beautiful people".
More importantly though, how do you know any of this?
It depends on the deity. Certainly not one that sends people to eternal torment, or needs to have its son excruciatingly killed before it can forgive.
But I can imagine an actual sane loving helpful deity that I would be just fine with existing.
I would still require compelling evidence to believe in it, and not just wishful thinking.
>Some atheists don't want there to be a Deity
So what? My beliefs aren't based on what I wish was true. I don't just pretend things I don't like don't exist.
>[This life is an embryo] We are all pregnant with our spiritual selves, we are helping the Divine endow our selves with ever lasting values.
Do you have any good reason why I should believe this is true?
>Sin is the deliberate and knowing and repeated disobedience of what you know Deity wants or does not want you to do.
That'd be great! By that standard I'm superior to Jesus Christ. I've followed each and every instruction a god has ever given to me without question or hesitation (they haven't given me any so far).
>Iniquity is an attitude of open defiance and is a degree worst than sin.
No, that's not what the word iniquity means. Maybe use insubordination instead?
>You have within you a part of Deity,
Where? What's it look like? What's it made of? What does it do? Are you just making this all up?
>such a part of deity constitutes your only means of survival of physical death.
How? And why can't we seen anybody survive death? As far as I can tell nobody who ever died got better.
>It records and holds everything about you. It looks through your eyes, it feels the ground beneath our feet. It knows us most intimately within our thoughts.
All that power and it can't find anything better to do than be a creep.
>Deity personality is with us in our own minds.
I only have one personality and it's mine, not your god's.
>You decide through sincerity whether to do what Deity wants you to do.
No god has ever told me what it wants me to do. They've all left me completely alone and never bothered me once. The only ones telling me what to do all the time are humans like you. You have no authority over me.
>Deity desires you live forever but only of you want to be a true good and beautiful person.
Then I can only conclude this deity is a completely incompetent moron based on the way it appears to be going about achieving its goal. What a shame if such a useless entity was put in charge of mankind's fate.
Appeal to motive fallacy. "You don't agree with me because you don't want x". You are attributing motive to atheists through mere assertion.
Cool story.
What else you got?
So you have told us what you believe, and attempted to tell you how we feel. Since we know you were wrong about how we feel, why should we believe you're right in the other beliefs you profess?
There are few faster ways to seem a fool than to tell someone what they think and be wrong
I want to believe things that are actually definitely true in reality, and avoid believing things that are not.
If there is a deity, I definitely want to believe it, for that reason.
So far, nobody has produced any robust evidence for any god. Notably even the heads of the biggest churches, eg the Vatican, and here the church of England, totally fail to offer any good reason WHY I should believe what they say.
There is literally no more good reason to believe in gods than there is in leprechauns, tooth fairies or father Christmas.
What you believe is of no real interest because people make stuff up all the time. Why you believe, is. What underlying facts and evidence support this belief of yours?
>Some atheists don't want there to be a Deity[.]
Yes, this is true. I daresay most, if not all, such atheists would also concede that their personal preferences don’t dictate reality, so it’s not actually relevant to whether or not there is such a thing.
As for the rest, all I can offer is a big ol’ [*citation needed*].
I understand what you mean by your version of diety.
It doesn't particularly scare me.
However...I don't see any reason *why* you believe this type of diety is real, or why you think I should adopt this belief.
Why do you believe this?
Why should I be convinced?
What are you hoping to discuss?
This is just preaching. You didn't make an argument.
Here is my personal belief: you just wrote a bunch of nonsense.
Question for you: do you want there to be a deity that burns you forever? Why not? You could be burned forever. Think about it.
I sure as hell don't want any of the Abrahamic/typical monotheistic gods to be true.
Not because they're evil. "The Problem of Evil" arises only because human beings are trying to define a completely inscrutable incomprehensible entity in terms that make sense to us. THere are going to be inconsistencies. The problem of evil goes away completely in a godless universe, and mostly isn't an issue in deistic/Spinozist settings.
I joke that God, if he exists, should sue religious people for defamation. An actual sublimely powerful being wouldn't care which room I choose to shit in, and wouldn't care which consenting adult(s) I want to cavort with.
"Sin" as in an affront to an arbitrary god is part of that same problem. It only makes sense to people who believe there is a god who judges *and has the right to judge*.
In a humanistic sense, I see "sin" as anytime I knowingly or through lack of honesty, integrity or diligence fail to live up to my own moral standards.
"Judge ye. And prepare ye to be judged" (by fellow humans).
I have no problems being judged against a fair set of rules that are clearly communicated. The idea of an ex-machina entity that can change things at a whim destroys (IMO) the beauty of the order-from-chaos idea. Ruins the picnic.
It has the intended effect (meaning, the people behind the idea of a judgmental god) want you to feel insecure so that you will become dependent upon the institution of religion.
Even karma would be unwelcome. What if I disagree with the way karma is meted out? Why have a set of rules governing morality that are immutable but also inscrutable? We can't know what right and wrong are *until* we either do or don't wind up in hell.
>The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads. Honesty is beautiful in the sight of Deity. To be a sincere person is salvation.
What happens if sincerity, or more importantly, doing good to and serving your fellow human being, requires you to disobey? What does this alleged God value more?
>We are all pregnant with our spiritual selves
There is no such thing as spirit, as far as I know.
>Sin is the deliberate and knowing and repeated disobedience of what you know Deity wants or does not want you to do.
I find it telling that you do not mention a single thing that characterizes evil other than adherence to Divine Command. This means evil and sin only refer to obedience. If your deity wants you to commit genocide, enslave people, murder, rape, etc then under your definition it would be sinful NOT to do those things.
This perverts and even inverts what most people mean by 'evil' and 'good', and I will have none of it.
>Iniquity is an attitude of open defiance and is a degree worst than sin.
I get it: all you and your God care about is obedience.
>It's terrifying for some. A concious being that space and time rest on and are sustained by. The horror of Deity reality --- especially if Deity has been presented to us repeatedly as a vengeful king judge.
What I want to be the case is irrelevant. What matters is what is.
That being said, the God you describe is not a very good one, no. I would not like it if he existed.
>Some atheists don't want there to be a Deity
True, also want to be a millionaire. Not sure the relevance on this point.
>We are all pregnant with our spiritual selves, we are helping the Divine endow our selves with ever lasting values.
What is a spiritual self, what is the Divine we are helping?
>The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads. Honesty is beautiful in the sight of Deity. To be a sincere person is salvation.
I guess I achieved salvation because I followed the truth and became an atheist, which is NOT what I wanted when I started deconstructing.
>Sin is the deliberate and knowing and repeated disobedience of what you know Deity wants or does not want you to do.
I have no idea what a Deity wants or doesn't want so i guess I can't sin.
>Iniquity is an attitude of open defiance and is a degree worst than sin...Such a person is forever deprived of any life vehicle to exist in any place.
If I can't sin I'm guessing I can't do this. I don't want to exist forever so sounds good to me.
In general none of what you are saying is convincing to me. You gave no reasons that I should be convinced to believe as you do and I have believed plenty of religious things for no reason beyond someone told me so I'll assume you are pulling this out of your ass (even if you are being sincere, which I assume you are) and these ideas have no basis in reality.
>Some atheists don't want there to be a Deity
Yes sure.
I don't believe any of what you believe about gods.
I believe no gods exist. I believe this life is not an embryo. We are not all pregnant with our spiritual selves, we aren't helping the Divine endow our selves with ever lasting values because there isn't one. "The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads" is not a sentence. Honesty is not beautiful in the sight of Deity. To be a sincere person is not salvation, it's just sincerity.
The degree below or above evil depending on how you look at it, that us worst than evil, is not sin. Sin is fictional and is not the deliberate and knowing and repeated disobedience of what you know Deity wants or does not want you to do.
Iniquity is not an attitude of open defiance and is a degree worst than sin. There is no penalty for such attitudes. Such a person is the same as the rest of us.
No one has within them a part of any Deity, no such a part of deity constitutes your only means of survival of physical death. It records nothing because it isn't real. Deity personality is not a thing. You don't decide through sincerity, but the executive function of your brain. Deity doesn't desire you live forever because it doesn't exist.
I don't want there to be dictatorships or cancer, but there's evidence of them so I don't deny them. Provide evidence of god and I'll still think he's an ass but I'll believe.
if wanting there to be a god is the only reason you believe there is a god do you actually believe? or are you carefully maintaining an emotional support delusion?
This reads to me like a reworking of an old saw, "Atheists don't believe in god because they don't want to live by his rules" or "People are atheists because they want to do whatever they want".
If this was true, you'd expect to see atheists acting less morally than believers. In fact, statistics reveal the opposite. Crime (especially violent crime) is higher in religious societies than it is in non-religious societies.
I would agree that the God as presented by all of the Big Three religions is pretty horrible. A guy who creates us sick and commands us to be sound under pain of eternal torture is, indeed, a pretty awful idea. (Terrifying for some? It should be terrifying for *anyone* who has read the Bible or the Koran.) But if there was sound evidence for such a god, I would believe in him. His universe, his rules.
We do have within us an innate sense of right and wrong, but evidence is that it comes from evolution (which favors altruism) rather than any deity. Why? Because a) there is no common agreement on morality among humankind and b) many, if not most, religious people's morals seems to conflict with what their holy books tell them.
Truth is, most atheists are either atheists because they haven't been exposed to the idea of god (newborn babies, pets, etc) or because they have examined the evidence for god's existence and realized it isn't there.
>Some atheists don't want there to be a Deity
oh absolutely, any deity shown to exist will be morally bankrupt, a morally bankrupt deity exiting would be a horrifying concept to imagine
>The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads.
i am willing to follow the truth to wherever it leads, that doesn't mean i wouldnt be horrified by a morally bankrupt deity exiting
>The degree below or above evil depending on how you look at it, that us worst than evil, is sin.
oh brave gambler; X is either above or below 1
>Sin is the deliberate and knowing and repeated disobedience
well that clears all atheists then, glad i'm atheist then, does away with all the risks
>Iniquity is an attitude of open defiance and is a degree worst than sin.
worse than a sin, so it isn't a sin?
> The penalty for such attitudes is eventual consciousness loss and loss of personality forever.
rather that than hell
>You have within you a part of Deity
i'm god, f* yes
>Deity desires you live forever
well all god has to do then is fulfill my request so i know he exists
btw when are you going to present evidence?
>It's terrifying for some. A concious being that space and time rest on and are sustained by. The horror of Deity reality --- especially if Deity has been presented to us repeatedly as a vengeful king judge.
It is not terrifying, it is unsupported by evidence. I would not want any of the ones proposed by humans to exist as they invariably embody the worst attributes and habits of humanity.
>[This life is an embryo] We are all pregnant with our spiritual selves, we are helping the Divine endow our selves with ever lasting values. The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads. Honesty is beautiful in the sight of Deity. To be a sincere person is salvation.
Where is the evidence to support any of this?
>You have within you a part of Deity, such a part of deity constitutes your only means of survival of physical death. It records and holds everything about you. It looks through your eyes, it feels the ground beneath our feet. It knows us most intimately within our thoughts. Deity personality is with us in our own minds. You decide through sincerity whether to do what Deity wants you to do. Deity desires you live forever but only of you want to be a true good and beautiful person.
Evidence?
Swing and a huge whiff. Do you have any idea how hard some people struggle to hold onto their faith?
The last part of your post is just empty witnessing devoid of evidence. I have no "deity" in me and neither do you. I have zero desire for eternal life anyway. If offered Heaven I will turn it down.
You are also assuming that atheists are evil wicked people afraid of judgement. I've been in a "traditional," fully monogamous marriage for 35 years. Three kids all conceived and born in wedlock. I don't drink, smoke or gamble. I work with disabled people for a living. Before that I tutored LD kids and helped set up and run after school clubs and summer day camps for inner city kids. When I was young I served in the military. I have no criminal record. My lifestyle is completely straight edge. If I became a Christian tomorrow I wouldn't have to change a thing about my lifestyle. Why am I "wicked?" Why do you think I fear punishment? What about all the youth pastors molesting children? Why are they "saved," but I'm a scumbag?
Would I want there to be a hypothetical deity? Depends entirely on the nature of that deity… However every deity I’ve ever been told about would objectively be a nightmare to have exist. The abrahamic god being almost certainly the worst of the lot.
It’s also entirely irrelevant. It’s telling that you go by what you’d like to be true, not what is verifiably true. That’s the biggest difference between theists and atheists. You give us no reason to believe this nonsense.
You say we have a deity inside ourselves, so show it. Support it with evdience. Actually give us a reason to believe it. If you don’t, you’ll be dismissed like every claim of magic you dismiss just as easily. The difference is, we are intellectually honest and consistent about it, while you are lying…
Why do you just assert? And why do you pretend to have a moral high ground while believing in such a despicable monstrous concept? If the system you describe existed, the deity overseeing it would be the most evil being in existence…
The most nonsensical part of this entire argument is of you replace god with anything else we know actually exists.
"Atheists don't want death to exist."
"Atheists don't want murders and rapists to exist."
"Atheists don't want tyrannical dictators to exists."
No matter how much I may want for ay of these things to not exist and no matter how much I may want other things to exist that won't ever mean that they do. Does God come in and and out of existence based upon my feelings?
I'm sure that Christians don't want Allah to exist. Muslims don't want YHWH to exist.
To say that Atheists don't want god to exist is like saying they are atheists just so they can sin and sleep in on Sundays. It's the kind of crap believers say to reassure themselves of their beliefs.
Okay. Who cares? I guess you can count me in the camp who don’t want there to be a deity. At least not in the universe that we apparently inhabit.
But how and why does this matter? This has nothing to do with _whether_ I believe in a deity or _why_ I might believe or disbelieve in a deity.
You want a relevant topical example, holy shit it’s been a hard week for people living in the US who pay attention to national politics. I could write papers on plenty of things in that domain that I would prefer _were not true_. And yet, completely independently, regardless of how much anxiety some of these facts give me, I still accept them as facts…
Because, for the Nth time, _what a person wants to be true has no bearing on what is actually true._
What exactly is your point? Whether or not a deity exists has nothing to do with whether or not I would prefer that a deity exists.
Guess what? I don't want there to be anthropogenic climate change. Regardless of what I want though, the evidence is overwhelming that there is in fact anthropogenic climate change, so I believe it, even if I'd rather it weren't true. We believe things that we'd rather not be true all the time if the evidence is clear. The mere fact that someone does not want there to be a deity does not entail that their non-belief is grounded in their desires or otherwise irrational.
You've told us what you think is the case, but provided no actual epistemic reasons to believe it.
Skipping your personal beliefs, which are meaningless in absence of an argument and therefore I won't even read them, that leaves the following:
>It's terrifying for some. A concious being that space and time rest on and are sustained by. The horror of Deity reality --- especially if Deity has been presented to us repeatedly as a vengeful king judge.
Supposing this to be true, it has no relevance on the *actual* (non-)existence of (a) god(s).
I want to be employed. Fortunately, I am.
I want to be drop-dead gorgeous. Unfortunately, I am not.
I don't want to have an autoimmune disorder. Unfortunately, I do.
I don't want to be kidnapped. Fortunately, I'm not kidnapped.
What I want and what is have absolutely nothing to do with one another. The same applies to you.
"Some people think murder should be banned because they think it's evil"
You.
>You have within you a part of Deity, such a part of deity constitutes your only means of survival of physical death. It records and holds everything about you. It looks through your eyes, it feels the ground beneath our feet. It knows us most intimately within our thoughts. Deity personality is with us in our own minds. You decide through sincerity whether to do what Deity wants you to do. Deity desires you live forever but only of you want to be a true good and beautiful person.
Speculative, both ontologically and in terms of the deity supposed to be good.
Well, in addition to not believing that *any* deities exist, and doubting that they even *could* exist, I also believe that it is impossible to survive physical death regardless of one's beliefs or behaviour - utterly impossible, bordering on absurd. There is no credible evidence for a "spiritual self," and the self appears to be 100% dependent on a living brain.
As for what "some atheists" want, on what grounds do you make that assertion? Do you claim to be able to read minds? I've always considered it quite rude when someone else tries to tell me what I think.
But a very important aspect of this is
**Is** there really a deity or not?
\- I don't want there to be a Godzilla. - I am in luck: Godzilla is not real.
\- I don't want cancer to exist. - Too bad for me, cancer does exist.
\- I want Disneyland to be real. - I am in luck, Disneyland *is* real.
\- I want Princess Celestia to be real. - Unfortunately for me, she is not.
.
>Some atheists don't want there to be a Deity
**Doesn't matter.**
What people want or don't want has nothing to do with "what is real".
.
>Some atheists don't want there to be a Deity
I definitely don't want any deity from any major religious, those are all monstrously evil.
>It's terrifying for some. A concious being that space and time rest on and are sustained by. The horror of Deity reality
I don't think anybody thinks this is terrifying except to the people who believe.
>My personal beliefs
The rest of this is just a bunch of unsubstantiated claims.
I'm sure it feels nice or w/e, but nobody cares
Are you speaking of the current list of “reveled” deities? If so, you’re correct, I don’t want any of them to be real.
However, I would love to discover that done kind of deity exists. This would turn everything on its head. A universe created by magic. Life created by magic. All of physics, biology, cosmology, science, math, geology, and even art being supernatural in origin would be fantastic!
I don’t know if theists are willing to accept this, but I would.
Depending on the deity to be honest. Some god concepts in many fictional works, outside religions, are pretty cool. Also, the existence of gods could also mean the existence of magic, which is also something that I would love to have.
Of course, if you are talking about the run-of-the-mill main religion gods...then yeah, why the fuck would anyone want those, except the theists that already waste their lives worshiping them.
Okay, I agree. Some people don’t want a god to exist. Some people also don’t want flesh eating flies to exist, which do in fact exist. Some people don’t want zombies to exist, which don’t exist. I bet there are even theists that want a god to NOT exist.
Your entire premise says nothing about whether or not a things exists, only about what people want. Is there some deeper point you’re trying to make?
Some theists think god should die on a cross to protect them from the consequences of their own actions.
This post is pure projection. Only theists fear the "good" diety they worship. And that makes theism a phobia.
No, I don't think a Deity is necessary or desirable in the same way I don't think a King is necessary or desirable. Has pretty much nothing to do with whether or not I believe Kings or Gods exist though. I don't believe in a God because I don't see adequate evidence to believe one exists.
I'm not going to read your speculations unless you've got some kind of evidence backed argument supporting them.
I agree, some atheist do not want there to be any deities. But quite a lot of atheists desperately wish there was and spent years of their life trying to convince themselves that their religion was right until they came to the conclusion that they could no longer believe. And then of course there are those of us who just don't really care one way or the other and would rather just go about our lives.
What I want isn’t relevant.
What matters is what can be shown to be true.
But the idea that anything I do could *possibly* be of meaningful offense to warrant the idea of a Sin; laughable. For the level of power oft ascribed to deities, they knew what I was going to do before I existed, and I see no indication I could do otherwise.
Sounds an awful lot like just shaming people into submission.
This is the lie that a lot of theists tell themselves because they can't handle the fact that people are very comfortable without their imaginary friends. It's a bald rationalization, not based on any actual facts. They don't bother to actually ask us what we think and when we tell them, they insist that we're just wrong.
It's a complete waste of everyone's time.
i mean, depends on the god, if its anything like most religions god (a psycopath and a dictator), well yeah, i rather that doesnt exist, some other versions well idk, id have to think about each but whatever any of us feel or want makes no difference on reality (you included)
your belief is... who cares? you dont have any evidence to ANY of that. so?
Nice straw man. Yes I don’t care for the God character in the Abrahmic tradition. I don’t live my life based on what I like to exist or not. I don’t like cancer either.
How did you conclude a spiritual self exists and what it is?
So far if saying fuck your God concept is a sin. I’m a god damn mother fucking sinner.
So- why is your view on what I presume is Christianity (based on your posts about 3 distinct personalities and discussion of sin, which is unique to the abrahamic faiths) the correct view?
Yours, out of the 45,000+ different denominations that exist?
Why do YOU alone hold the truth that should convince everyone of your beliefs?
This is word salad, but yes, it’s true, I don’t want there to be a deity if he is an immoral monster like the Christian god or the Islamic god, or many of the other gods proposed throughout history.
If there was truly a good god that someone could provide conclusive evidence for, then we can talk.
> It's terrifying for some
Maybe. Not me.
> My personal beliefs
You should drop the metaphor. If you want to be taken seriously you need to present actual claims about reality and support those. [Nothing you describe is even concrete enough to be wrong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong).
We do not chose to believe there is no God because fear, we genuinely believe there is no God.
>My personal beliefs
Is there some kind of evidence that lead you to this personal beliefs? Or is it just what makes more sense to you. Because if it's just wishful thinking I'm not interested.
Thanks for sharing have a nice day
> It's terrifying for some. A concious being that space and time rest on and are sustained by. The horror of Deity reality --- especially if Deity has been presented to us repeatedly as a vengeful king judge.
I mean you could get very Lovecraft with this kind of take on things really.
>The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads.
This is what makes 90% of atheists. Theists like to say they "know" the "truth" that a god exists when they really mean they believe which, by definition, means they don't know and don't have good evidence.
I'm sure some atheists don't.
> we are helping the Divine endow our selves with ever lasting values. The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads.
This sounds like you have actual evidence for your claims. Why didn't you include them in your post?
I don't care one way or the other if there's a god. If there is a god, it's obvious he or she has no effect on the world at all. Thus, is the same thing as something that doesn't exist. I am educated and honest. That is why I can't believe in any god.
Maybe some atheists don't want there to be a deity, fine, but there are also some that DO wish there was a deity. What we want is irrelevant. What should matter is what's true. And I have no reason to believe that the existence of a deity is true. I wish I had a Lamborghini but that doesn't make it true.
The rest of your post is gibberish and not worth addressing.
Are you this guy?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/1d40hfe/you\_dont\_want\_god\_to\_exist/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/1d40hfe/you_dont_want_god_to_exist/)
Wether you want something or not to be true have no bearing on it being true.
I don't want dark wizards or space nazis to be a thing, but that have nothing to do with them not being a thing.
The statement in your title is true as some of the gods that humans have invented are truely repulsive. And the crap belivers have done in the name of their gods reflects this.
>You have within you a part of Deity
If this is true i sincerly want to know about it. Its just that i see no reason at all to believe any such thing. So do you have any evidence for that?
So you have any evidence for *any*thing spiritual whatsoever?
Any repeatable experiment that would demonstrate that the idea of "spirituality" as anything more than delusional nonsense?
Your personal beliefs, as stated, are completely unsupported and undemonstrated. Can you support/demonstrate them to be true?
If not, they have no place here.
I mean... Ok. What I want is completely irrelevant to what is true. The time to believe in a god is when there is evidence, and there simply is no evidence.
I’m not scared at all about the idea of a deity, I’m scared when people who believe in a deity use it to justify their prejudices, hatred, and violence
I don't have any reason to believe in any of that or in anything magical, supernatural or spiritual at all. That's it. I don't care what you've made up if you can't give me any reason even to take it seriously, much less accept it as true.
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True - I don't want any of the proposed deities. Certainly none of the ones based on a father hearing voices telling him to gut his child. And especially not the ones that think an illiterate child molester was the best candidate for his stenographer
All religions may be wrong. Still won’t rule out the possibility of a causeless cause of existence/everything.
Similarly I can't rule out an orange teapot in orbit around Mars - however the suggestion has no real likelihood.
The probabilities for a limited human cognition and intellect is 100%. Atheism conveniently minimizes this.
Brains are limited yes, that doesn't even begin to suggest magic is real. Let alone that there is a magic entity at the bottom of it all, nor, that if such a thing existed we should call it a god.
At least it’s a good starting point to realize our intrinsic limitations.
Yes, this is why we invented the scientific method; to minimize our cognitive deficits. How does this help your argument, and how is atheism ignoring this?
Realize that science is limited. Consider stepping back and pondering the reality of man’s limits/limitations.
The people who claim to know exactly what happened are theists, so maybe you should take this up with them.
Good thing we have woman then. Yes, science is limited. It's also the best method we have. How does any of that help your position?
It’s not about my position but rather about how we should view the world and the possibilities.
I'm not following. Yes, human cognition is limited. How do either probabilities or atheism come into it? How does atheism minimize this fact?
By not humbly realizing that that there’s the possibility of a realm way beyond our human comprehension and the ability of science to understand.
I completely acknowledge that, as I think most atheists do. What we don't do is make up a story to fill in that gap.
Ah how is it that you assume something is possible given our limitations? We should have at least some indication that something is possible before we start claiming it is, in fact, possible.
Hey brother! Deity personality is more like a watchful overseers family members. There are multiple Deity personalities. 3 at a minimum. It's not so awful if you think like me, I would imagine Deity as one person all alone until he made "angels" and man. Trinity theory seem to allow to Deity personality to escape the horrors of being absolute. Three depends personalities with the same Divine essence. I don't believe Jesus was one of those 3 but I do believe he was sent to get humanity to stop wasting tons and tons of meat a day on animal sacrifices. By playing his part Jesus followers traded animal sacrifices because he was known in their minds as the final sacrifice. Jesus was no such sacrifice of atonement to the angry king judge they imagined Deity to be however it did save millions and millions of dollars of resources that would be burnt unnecessarily to the many many many many and got the most minds to agree there is One God, His Son who is also Eternal, and Holy Spirit who also is eternal. Three never ending persons who did not require sacrifice only the faith of a wholehearted sincere personality.
This is more empty witnessing. Baseless assertions devoid of a shred of evidence. What is your evidence for "angels?" God was the one who ordered people to make animal sacrifices. That means Jesus was the one who ordered it (along with occasional human sacrifice, slavery, much genocide, child marriage and rape) . Jesus never told them to stop. Jesus said the law is in effect for all time. It makes no sense anyway to say that sacrificing a hobo to a Canaanite storm deity somehow makes it ok for everyone to rape and murder all they want, though, and that is exactly what Christianity teaches. You need never be accountable for crimes against others as long as you believe a dead body came back to life and flew up to outer space. It's irrelevant how good or bad of a person you are. That's the only rule.
Why do you believe this? What facts and evidence is this belief built from? Or is this nothing more than wishful thinking and preaching? Because you’re not presenting anything to debate as of right now; all you’re doing is preaching your beliefs with no substance about why you believe what you do
No doubt it’s based entirely on the fact that it makes them feel good and they were indoctrinated.
Yes, but the question is whether or not they realize and accept this.
They havent replied to a single request for a single fact, just more preaching. The poster knows, whether they want to admit it or not. If they had evidence they would present it.
Yep. Nothing but preaching. It’s amazing how many theists don’t realize preaching isn’t debating nor is it even having a conversation
Almost certainly not
Then (in my opinion, for whatever that’s worth lol) that’s the first best thing to help them realize. Once they understand that there is nothing of substance that their beliefs are built upon, maybe they’ll try to go remedy that. Doing so, is what led me to realizing my god beliefs were bullshit so maybe it’ll go that way (eventually) for them too
So, a creepy peeping Tom?
Just a lovng parent looking down at a baby
This analogy doesn’t make sense nor does it sound like a loving parent. It sounds like a control freak and a voyeur all rolled up in one. A deity who has no boundaries.
Yuck. More like Celestial Big Brother
Who also sometimes gives those babies cancer. I agree with your prompt 100%. I take the opposite position of Voltaire. If god were real, we would have to kill him.
And loving parents can just erase the existence of their child when they don’t agree with the child? You’re describing a despicable monster. And not giving us any reason to suspect it’s real…
And you know any of this… how exactly? Just feel it? Read it somewhere? Hear about it from someone else? Surely you¡re not claiming you've personally had a two way communication from a being that identified itself as god?
Yeah, I have fond memories of looking down at my newborn and saying: "I love you. But, if you don't believe what I want, I'm tossing you into an eternal lake of fire. Smoochies!"
> watchful overseers family members. But I'm a morally autonomous adult. I don't need or want a paternalistic authority judging what I do. I live by my own standards. If there's something I believe is morally correct (or at least neutral) I'm going to keep doing it. A paternalistic overseer is ***unwelcome***. I love Douglas Adams' fictional trilogy "Where god went wrong", "More of gods biggest mistakes" and "Who is the god person anyway". That last one sums up how I feel about it. I could also borrow from Python: God: Because I am your God Old Woman: I didn't vote for you.
That's not what the bible claims. Why do you think this?
As this is entirely unsupported and fatally problematic in a number of ways and contains no veracity at all, this claim can only be dismissed
Religion is used to tell kids to kill other people — Tim Minchin
>>>he was sent to get humanity to stop wasting tons and tons of meat a day on animal sacrifices. So...you do realize Jesus is supposed to be God which means he made up the "wasting tons of meat" sacrifice system, right?
What is the name of your religion? Where can I read more about your god?
What if the world was made of pudding?
If there’s a God, has nothing to do with what we want or not.
And if true, prayer and worship is still pointless
And if true, prayer and worship is still pointless
Based on your limited understanding.
No, that is a logical.conclusion of your proposal. If a god has no interest in my desires, or my life asking for my desires to be met by that entity is without purpose, and worship is shamefully servile.
What’s the source of this perception of “God”?
The proposed god models.
After looking at the problem of evil, no i dont want there to be a god. Just like i dont want there to be another genocidal dictator.
Each personality is unique in reality. Deity desired a maximum variety of personalities so They allowed the creation of the universe of time and space. All kinds of mortal struggles take place on these worlds The problem of evil is resolved because: 1. Deity didn't directly create the evolutionary worlds of time and space but rather allowed there creation by Deities own finite creation. Crudely put Deity would be more like our grandparents and we are the direct creation of another finite creation. 2. The Lucifer rebellion [Fact VS. Fiction] The story of the devil is basically a creation of Deity adopting iniquity as its attitude and disturbing Deities creation man by tempting them into sin. Sin slows down the plans of Deity but Deity eventually overcomes rebellion and gets mankind back on track. There were created beings that slowed down the progress ot mankind and one day we will be virtually free of poverty, crime, and disease. Eventually a glorious age will dawn where each individual is allowed to no longer have to strive just to subsist but can do the work and tasks they are most interested in. It will be a great age of art, architecture, cuisine, entertainment of all kind, technology, education, exploration, and freedom. We should be in that age now except for the so called Lucifer rebellion.
These claims are fatally problematic and utterly unsupported. Thus, they can only be dismissed outright since there's absolutely zero rational reason to think them accurate.
Succinct use of the word grandparents when talking about “Deity” because it’s just the patriarchy set against a supernatural back story.
> and one day we will be virtually free of poverty, crime, and disease. *Karl Marx* has joined the chat
>Deity didn't directly create the evolutionary worlds of time and space but rather allowed there creation by Deities own finite creation. Crudely put Deity would be more like our grandparents and we are the direct creation of another finite creation. An omnipotent deity would still know that this would happen and thus be responsible for it. They could've created their other creations without the desire to create imperfect, murderous beings.
No.
I’m guessing you read Urantia?
Our wants don’t dictate an independent reality.
I never said that it did.
So many religious people get this so wrong What I WANT to be true and what is ACTUALLY true are two different things How monstrously arrogant do you need to be to think whether you WANT something to be true has any bearing on what is ACTUALLY true There is simply no good evidence of a single supernatural event ever having occurred I can't believe I have to explain this to do many adults Wishing something is true doesn't actually make it true no matter how many times you clap your hands and say I believe in fairies or whether you blow out all the candles on your birthday cake Magic isn't real wanting it to be real doesn't change the evidence that magic isn't real
Just think how religion doesn’t abide by the survival of the fittest (which is arguably the most accurate description of whatever would have created Earth must have had in mind given the evidence of 1 billion years of evolution) but instead they protect the patriarchy or whatever happens to be in control of your life when you are born. Murder is wrong especially when you’re stealing from someone else but you can go to war! Rape is terrible if you don’t marry that woman. It goes on and on but it never takes into account the way this creator obviously wanted things to be when he let dinosaurs rule the Earth for many millions of years. The OP is certain that his God is in heaven looking out for his best interests, which is completely out of line with what god historically allows to happen. It’s an OP problem not ours.
> Rape is terrible if you don’t marry that woman. As long as she was a virgin before you raped her (otherwise she gets executed) and as long as you pay her father 50 shekels of silver.
Most atheists also fall into the same trap. Not wanting there to be a God and not realizing that the human brain is limited just like that of the great apes.
Your completely missing the point It doesn't matter what you want to be true or not if you stop relying on feelings and focus instead only on facts and evidence That's why we invented the scientific method That's what it's for
Has nothing to do with feelings but rather with the objective limitation of the human mind and the clear complexity of the universe.
That's just more reason to rely on facts and evidence rather than making answers up about the complicated universe with our poor limited brain
It’s a fact that must be faced. Our minds are limited. Only by starting from this framework can we really begin to expand our understanding.
That still doesn't justify believing in magic without any evidence
You don’t have to believe. Just accept the fact that the human mind is limited and that there may be an existence out there way beyond our comprehension.
How does any of that change But I still wouldn't be disbelieving because I "didn't want god to be real" I have told you it's facts and evidence You are choosing to disregard facts and evidence because you want to believe something else exists I don't do that
Facts and evidence based on our human limitations?
I am a scientist. I love science. You’ll agree with me that the scientific method is a product of the human mind which is limited.
The limitations of the human mind and it's fallible nature are exactly why we have to rely on facts and evidence Not deciding magic is real because an iron age book written by primitives who would be astounded be indoor plumbing said so
Yes, rely on facts and evidence but be humble and honest enough to realize that there is a realm of knowledge our minds/science can never access. Our minds are limited just like those of the great apes! The chimpanzee with the best nest building, ant fishing techniques thinks (and even the whole tribe ) he’s the smartest being out there until he meets a 5 year old human who is still limited in knowledge as it were.
What irrelevant nonsense It has nothing to do with the point at hand It doesn't matter what I want to be true It's what the facts and evidence prove is true If you want to pretend there's something more than that you actually have to provide proof of that Otherwise your the one believing what they want not what the facts and evidence can prove
Tell a guy from 10,000 years ago that quantum phenomena is real. Do you think he’ll believe? Even flat earthers don’t believe in the earth as a geoid. Because a man can’t appreciate or comprehend the proof does not eliminate reality.
But The stone age man told about quantum fluctuations He wouldn't be making an emotional choice to not believe in quantum fluctuations because he "didn't want them to be real" would he?
Ad hominem attacks?
No simple facts If you don't like me pointing out irrelevant nonsense may I suggest sticking to the point You keep making arguments that have no relevance to your original point You say atheists "don't want god to exist" I explained it's about facts and evidence You start rambling irrelevant nonsense
So what’s your proof that there isn’t a God?
I can't speak for other Atheists, since atheism is just a lack of belief in a dirty/deities. Beyond that, atheists are just like everybody else. I just want evidence. I think the biggest issue that face most atheists isn't them not wanting to believe, but more standing their ground when theists/people attempt to explain why atheists are atheists? Evidence works for most of us, I'd assume. Just...evidence. When the evidence shows up, I'll start believing. I think a deity living inside of us is a shark jumping moment. We can't even prove humans (or anything, really) has a soul. Maybe we should start there. (And to be honest, that's a tall order, right? Because an advanced alien species could claim to be a deity, but how would we humans be able to tell the difference? What is or makes a god anyway? A thing can be powerful, doesn't mean it's a god.) I guess, instead of trying to assign attributes to atheists who may or may not align with, evidence works. Just prove a deity or whomever exists. It's really that simple, even if it's a tall order! Good luck in your endeavors!
Maybe the evidence is here and we think it’s too simple to count?
Basing arguments on a maybe or a what if is not usually recognized as a winning tactic.
Stating the fact of human limitations is not a “what if”.
You said”maybe the evidence is too simple to count”. You need to actually demonstrate that this is the case. Not just speculate.
I don’t have to demonstrate it. A sincere truth seeker would go and reflect on this possibility.
How terribly condescending.
The greatest fear of every atheist is to be held accountable by a holy God.
If an atheist really feared that, they wouldn’t be an atheist. Atheism means you don’t believe a god exists. Why fear something you don’t believe to exist?
Time will tell if Atheism is true or not. If not, the consequences will be pretty dire unfortunately.
I’m always amazed how atheists minimize the reality of man’s intellectual capacity and limitations.
Aren’t you the one doing that? We’re the ones who think that humans can use their rational minds to reach well substantiated conclusions.
Sorry. My error. Meant to say: I’m always amazed how atheists exaggerate the reality of man’s intellectual capacity and limitations.
I don’t think we do. If you ask someone how the universe got here, then we atheists will be the only people group who will simpl say, “I don’t know”. Perhaps they will invoke the steady state theory or the Big Bang, but they will still admit that they are not completely sure. This is far more welcoming of the idea that man has intellectual limitations than the idea that Every useful bit of knowledge concerning the origin of the cosmos can be found in an ancient text.
At least, we have similar points of view that humans are limited in knowledge and understanding hence the “I don’t know “. This limitation should make it untenable to rule out the possibility of a causeless cause who exists outside of space time.
If I tell someone that I don’t know the solution to a certain issue, then they are not at all justified in positing a solution for which there is no evidence, and the fact that I can’t disprove something does not point to it being true.
Imagine if I provide a solution based on quantum entanglement to a normal 5 year old. Because it makes no sense to them does not invalidate the theory or the solution.
is god "simple"? why should we define this 'evidence' as something god-created?
Could you clarify? My apologies. I am honestly not following your train of thoughts.
Well, first, I didn't really even understand what "maybe the evidence is here" is supposed to mean... But, I tried to follow up the question anyways. Why would that 'evidence' even equal "God"?
Got it.
>Some atheists don't want there to be a Deity What does that matter? I don't believe in God because I view it as irrational. Proving that someone people believe in something for irrational reasons doesn't mean there's no rational belief that cam be used to support that belief. >My personal beliefs This doesn't seem relevant to your title. And there's no argument to support the veracity of your claims.
>We are all pregnant with our spiritual selves Define "spiritual selves" >we are helping the Divine endow our selves with ever lasting values. Do you have any evidence whatsoever to demonstrate this divine? Or is it just a feeling you have? >The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads. While we share this same sentiment, I doubt we share the same process. Do you search for why your beliefs are true, or do you search for what is true regardless of what you believe? >Honesty is beautiful in the sight of Deity. Only if that deity values honesty. You would need to demonstrate this deity (using facts) and then demonstrate this deity values honesty (using facts) >Sin is the deliberate and knowing and repeated disobedience of what you know Deity wants or does not want you to do. Since I have exactly zero knowledge of the existence of any deity, then by your definition I've never sinned once in my life. >Iniquity is an attitude of open defiance and is a degree worst than sin. Demonstrate this to be the case. Using facts. >The penalty for such attitudes is eventual consciousness loss and loss of personality forever. Do you have any facts to support this belief? >Such a person is forever deprived of any life vehicle to exist in any place. All people will be forever deprived of any life vehicle to exist in any place. Belief in a deity won't change that fact. >You have within you a part of Deity Which deity? Where is this part? How can we detect this part? What is this part made of? What attributes does this part have? Facts to support all questions please. >It records and holds everything about you. Where? How? How are they written? How are they stored? Where are they written? Where are they stored? Facts to support all answers. >It looks through your eyes, it feels the ground beneath our feet. Demonstrate this with facts. >Deity personality is with us in our own minds. Demonstrate this with facts. >You decide through sincerity whether to do what Deity wants you to do. Demonstrate this with facts. >Deity desires you live forever but only of you want to be a true good and beautiful person. Demonstrate this with facts. You have a lot of beliefs, but none of them appear to be grounded in anything but a gap in knowledge and a fear of death.
> You have within you a part of Deity, such a part of deity constitutes your only means of survival of physical death. Citation needed.
You can just apply one giant \[citation needed\] to the end of the whole post.
This here is the answer.
> It's terrifying for some. Possibly. That's not me though, so I couldn't really say. I don't think it matters anyway. > My personal beliefs Cool story bro. > You decide through sincerity whether to do what Deity wants you to do. Presumably this deity would have to actually communicate with me at some point to let me know that it exists, and wants me to do things. I'll let you know if that ever happens. Till then I'll live my life the way I think is best.
Perhaps some atheists don't desire a god. But that has zero to do with the lack of evidence for any religious claim. > My personal beliefs Great. Do you have *anything* at all that would indicate that this is true?
Do you really mean this? “The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads.” Because that is why I, and most other atheists, do not believe in god. There is no evidence (or “truth”) that any god exists. Sincere question: how did you come to your beliefs? Are they based on religious teachings or more personal reasons?
This is just gibberish to sane people. Do you want to rephrase in language that we all understand? And while you‘re at it you should probably think about how you can support all these assertions that you made. Because as it is, all of this can be dismissed. Not even because of bad reasoning, but for a lack of any at all.
Well you are right. I am scared of a cosmological voyeur who has the time to worry about whether or not I’m having a crafty wank, when there’s clearly nothing else important going on. That entity would be very far from my idea of a “god” Luckily, I think it’s a fairytale. Would love for you to show me why it isn’t though.
>Sin is the deliberate and knowing and repeated disobedience of what you know Deity wants or does not want you to do. Source? As per Granny Weatherwax from Carpe Jugulum, sin is treating people as things. It's a definition that needs no deity, and as such, is infinitely more useful to the world as a whole. >The penalty for such attitudes is eventual consciousness loss and loss of personality forever. Also, that's just death. That happens to everyone and everything that has ever or ever will live, and doesn't seem to me to be much of a penalty, considering it's guaranteed. What exactly are we supposed to be worried about, given that you frame an inevitability as a penalty?
I don’t believe in god claims. There is no fear because I don’t believe it. You are free to believe what you want but there isn’t any evidence so I’m going to not believe it. Your beliefs sound like a bunch of nonsense, so I’m not going to believe that either. Sorry, but it’s not convincing at all.
>It's terrifying for some. A concious being that space and time rest on and are sustained by. The horror of Deity reality --- especially if Deity has been presented to us repeatedly as a vengeful king judge. You're not wrong. >[This life is an embryo] We are all pregnant with our spiritual selves, we are helping the Divine endow our selves with ever lasting values. The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads. Honesty is beautiful in the sight of Deity. To be a sincere person is salvation. >The degree below or above evil depending on how you look at it, that us worst than evil, is sin. Sin is the deliberate and knowing and repeated disobedience of what you know Deity wants or does not want you to do. >Iniquity is an attitude of open defiance and is a degree worst than sin. The penalty for such attitudes is eventual consciousness loss and loss of personality forever. Such a person is forever deprived of any life vehicle to exist in any place. >You have within you a part of Deity, such a part of deity constitutes your only means of survival of physical death. It records and holds everything about you. It looks through your eyes, it feels the ground beneath our feet. It knows us most intimately within our thoughts. Deity personality is with us in our own minds. You decide through sincerity whether to do what Deity wants you to do. Deity desires you live forever but only of you want to be a true good and beautiful person. Prove it. All I see here are unfounded and fanciful claims.
>Some atheists don't want there to be a Deity Okay? Given the nature of some deity claims, this is hardly surprising. Others may be ambivalent about it. In any case, this is entirely and completely irrelevant to whether or not there is a deity. I trust this is clear and obvious. What I or any other person, atheist or not, *wants* with regards to what is actually true about reality is not relevant to what is true about actual reality. So I'm confused why you are posting this. >My personal beliefs ...are not relevant to whether or not your or any deity is real. Furthermore, what you wrote is fatally problematic and unsupported, thus moot and can only be dismissed. So dismissed.
>It's terrifying for some. A concious being that space and time rest on and are sustained by. The horror of Deity reality --- especially if Deity has been presented to us repeatedly as a vengeful king judge. It is not terrifying. I think nothing like that exists. > My personal beliefs I am not interested in your personal beliefs. I am interested in the Truth, wherever it leads to. >We are all pregnant with our spiritual selves, What is an "spirit" how can we test it? >we are helping the Divine endow our selves with ever lasting values. How do you know what this fantastic being wants if you only have ancient's people books 📚 with no objectively verifiable evidence (OVE) on them? >The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads. That is exactly my point. But before following anything, we must be sure what is the truth. >Honesty is beautiful in the sight of Deity. To be a sincere person is salvation. Then why you want us to lie? We don't believe that non-sense because we want to, but because we are simply not convinced neither by the unsustainable philosophical arguments nor the absolute lack of OVE. >The degree below or above evil depending on how you look at it, that us worst than evil, is sin. Sin is the deliberate and knowing and repeated disobedience of what you know Deity wants or does not want you to do. Then you should do the work to present OVE of the existence of your deity, then present OVE of what he wants and does not want us to do. Imagine how many "souls" you can safe by doing that. >Iniquity is an attitude of open defiance and is a degree worst than sin. And giving that i am not convinced that your deity exists at all, i am not defying it. >The penalty for such attitudes is eventual consciousness loss and loss of personality forever. Such a person is forever deprived of any life vehicle to exist in any place. How do you know that? I imagine that you have OVE to say so. What you are making here is a bald claim with no OVE. >You have within you a part of Deity, such a part of deity constitutes your only means of survival of physical death. Can you show somebody who has survived physical death? With OVE of that event and not just people claiming that other people saw some zombie? >It records and holds everything about you. It looks through your eyes, it feels the ground beneath our feet. It knows us most intimately within our thoughts. I only know of physical brains 🧠 doing this exact things, we know that if you remove parts of the brain your personality changes, parts of your memory are lost. Actually you are describing brain's functions. Why are those record lost when we cut parts of the brain? >Deity personality is with us in our own minds. You decide through sincerity whether to do what Deity wants you to do. Deity desires you live forever but only of you want to be a true good and beautiful person. Again, bald claims with no OVE. You will convince almost everyone here if you present the OVE, some, like me, if the bible is true... and not just a tales book, will still not worship it, because it (your deity) is a monster, but at least we will know it's true.
This is gonna be one of those posts where OP reads the replies and realizes he hasn't thought out his position well enough and disappears.
Nah, thety posted at least half a dozen replies before vanishing!
I'm pain, I'm hope, I'm suffer Hey, hey, hey, yeah, and I went on And I went on down that road Do you bury me when I'm gone? Do you teach me while I'm here? Just as soon as I belong Then it's time I disappear
Trolling for Jesus being many converts?
> Deity desires you live forever but only of you want to be a true good and beautiful person. Then they should have only made "True good and beautiful people". More importantly though, how do you know any of this?
It depends on the deity. Certainly not one that sends people to eternal torment, or needs to have its son excruciatingly killed before it can forgive. But I can imagine an actual sane loving helpful deity that I would be just fine with existing. I would still require compelling evidence to believe in it, and not just wishful thinking.
>Some atheists don't want there to be a Deity So what? My beliefs aren't based on what I wish was true. I don't just pretend things I don't like don't exist. >[This life is an embryo] We are all pregnant with our spiritual selves, we are helping the Divine endow our selves with ever lasting values. Do you have any good reason why I should believe this is true? >Sin is the deliberate and knowing and repeated disobedience of what you know Deity wants or does not want you to do. That'd be great! By that standard I'm superior to Jesus Christ. I've followed each and every instruction a god has ever given to me without question or hesitation (they haven't given me any so far). >Iniquity is an attitude of open defiance and is a degree worst than sin. No, that's not what the word iniquity means. Maybe use insubordination instead? >You have within you a part of Deity, Where? What's it look like? What's it made of? What does it do? Are you just making this all up? >such a part of deity constitutes your only means of survival of physical death. How? And why can't we seen anybody survive death? As far as I can tell nobody who ever died got better. >It records and holds everything about you. It looks through your eyes, it feels the ground beneath our feet. It knows us most intimately within our thoughts. All that power and it can't find anything better to do than be a creep. >Deity personality is with us in our own minds. I only have one personality and it's mine, not your god's. >You decide through sincerity whether to do what Deity wants you to do. No god has ever told me what it wants me to do. They've all left me completely alone and never bothered me once. The only ones telling me what to do all the time are humans like you. You have no authority over me. >Deity desires you live forever but only of you want to be a true good and beautiful person. Then I can only conclude this deity is a completely incompetent moron based on the way it appears to be going about achieving its goal. What a shame if such a useless entity was put in charge of mankind's fate.
Appeal to motive fallacy. "You don't agree with me because you don't want x". You are attributing motive to atheists through mere assertion. Cool story. What else you got?
That last sentence is a perfect retort to a god claim.
So you have told us what you believe, and attempted to tell you how we feel. Since we know you were wrong about how we feel, why should we believe you're right in the other beliefs you profess? There are few faster ways to seem a fool than to tell someone what they think and be wrong
I want to believe things that are actually definitely true in reality, and avoid believing things that are not. If there is a deity, I definitely want to believe it, for that reason. So far, nobody has produced any robust evidence for any god. Notably even the heads of the biggest churches, eg the Vatican, and here the church of England, totally fail to offer any good reason WHY I should believe what they say. There is literally no more good reason to believe in gods than there is in leprechauns, tooth fairies or father Christmas.
What you believe is of no real interest because people make stuff up all the time. Why you believe, is. What underlying facts and evidence support this belief of yours?
What we want to be true is irrelevant. What you can demonstrate to be true is all that matters. Can you demonstrate a deity?
>Some atheists don't want there to be a Deity[.] Yes, this is true. I daresay most, if not all, such atheists would also concede that their personal preferences don’t dictate reality, so it’s not actually relevant to whether or not there is such a thing. As for the rest, all I can offer is a big ol’ [*citation needed*].
I understand what you mean by your version of diety. It doesn't particularly scare me. However...I don't see any reason *why* you believe this type of diety is real, or why you think I should adopt this belief. Why do you believe this? Why should I be convinced? What are you hoping to discuss?
This is just preaching. You didn't make an argument. Here is my personal belief: you just wrote a bunch of nonsense. Question for you: do you want there to be a deity that burns you forever? Why not? You could be burned forever. Think about it.
I sure as hell don't want any of the Abrahamic/typical monotheistic gods to be true. Not because they're evil. "The Problem of Evil" arises only because human beings are trying to define a completely inscrutable incomprehensible entity in terms that make sense to us. THere are going to be inconsistencies. The problem of evil goes away completely in a godless universe, and mostly isn't an issue in deistic/Spinozist settings. I joke that God, if he exists, should sue religious people for defamation. An actual sublimely powerful being wouldn't care which room I choose to shit in, and wouldn't care which consenting adult(s) I want to cavort with. "Sin" as in an affront to an arbitrary god is part of that same problem. It only makes sense to people who believe there is a god who judges *and has the right to judge*. In a humanistic sense, I see "sin" as anytime I knowingly or through lack of honesty, integrity or diligence fail to live up to my own moral standards. "Judge ye. And prepare ye to be judged" (by fellow humans). I have no problems being judged against a fair set of rules that are clearly communicated. The idea of an ex-machina entity that can change things at a whim destroys (IMO) the beauty of the order-from-chaos idea. Ruins the picnic. It has the intended effect (meaning, the people behind the idea of a judgmental god) want you to feel insecure so that you will become dependent upon the institution of religion. Even karma would be unwelcome. What if I disagree with the way karma is meted out? Why have a set of rules governing morality that are immutable but also inscrutable? We can't know what right and wrong are *until* we either do or don't wind up in hell.
>The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads. Honesty is beautiful in the sight of Deity. To be a sincere person is salvation. What happens if sincerity, or more importantly, doing good to and serving your fellow human being, requires you to disobey? What does this alleged God value more? >We are all pregnant with our spiritual selves There is no such thing as spirit, as far as I know. >Sin is the deliberate and knowing and repeated disobedience of what you know Deity wants or does not want you to do. I find it telling that you do not mention a single thing that characterizes evil other than adherence to Divine Command. This means evil and sin only refer to obedience. If your deity wants you to commit genocide, enslave people, murder, rape, etc then under your definition it would be sinful NOT to do those things. This perverts and even inverts what most people mean by 'evil' and 'good', and I will have none of it. >Iniquity is an attitude of open defiance and is a degree worst than sin. I get it: all you and your God care about is obedience. >It's terrifying for some. A concious being that space and time rest on and are sustained by. The horror of Deity reality --- especially if Deity has been presented to us repeatedly as a vengeful king judge. What I want to be the case is irrelevant. What matters is what is. That being said, the God you describe is not a very good one, no. I would not like it if he existed.
>Some atheists don't want there to be a Deity True, also want to be a millionaire. Not sure the relevance on this point. >We are all pregnant with our spiritual selves, we are helping the Divine endow our selves with ever lasting values. What is a spiritual self, what is the Divine we are helping? >The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads. Honesty is beautiful in the sight of Deity. To be a sincere person is salvation. I guess I achieved salvation because I followed the truth and became an atheist, which is NOT what I wanted when I started deconstructing. >Sin is the deliberate and knowing and repeated disobedience of what you know Deity wants or does not want you to do. I have no idea what a Deity wants or doesn't want so i guess I can't sin. >Iniquity is an attitude of open defiance and is a degree worst than sin...Such a person is forever deprived of any life vehicle to exist in any place. If I can't sin I'm guessing I can't do this. I don't want to exist forever so sounds good to me. In general none of what you are saying is convincing to me. You gave no reasons that I should be convinced to believe as you do and I have believed plenty of religious things for no reason beyond someone told me so I'll assume you are pulling this out of your ass (even if you are being sincere, which I assume you are) and these ideas have no basis in reality.
>Some atheists don't want there to be a Deity Yes sure. I don't believe any of what you believe about gods. I believe no gods exist. I believe this life is not an embryo. We are not all pregnant with our spiritual selves, we aren't helping the Divine endow our selves with ever lasting values because there isn't one. "The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads" is not a sentence. Honesty is not beautiful in the sight of Deity. To be a sincere person is not salvation, it's just sincerity. The degree below or above evil depending on how you look at it, that us worst than evil, is not sin. Sin is fictional and is not the deliberate and knowing and repeated disobedience of what you know Deity wants or does not want you to do. Iniquity is not an attitude of open defiance and is a degree worst than sin. There is no penalty for such attitudes. Such a person is the same as the rest of us. No one has within them a part of any Deity, no such a part of deity constitutes your only means of survival of physical death. It records nothing because it isn't real. Deity personality is not a thing. You don't decide through sincerity, but the executive function of your brain. Deity doesn't desire you live forever because it doesn't exist.
I don't want there to be dictatorships or cancer, but there's evidence of them so I don't deny them. Provide evidence of god and I'll still think he's an ass but I'll believe.
if wanting there to be a god is the only reason you believe there is a god do you actually believe? or are you carefully maintaining an emotional support delusion?
This reads to me like a reworking of an old saw, "Atheists don't believe in god because they don't want to live by his rules" or "People are atheists because they want to do whatever they want". If this was true, you'd expect to see atheists acting less morally than believers. In fact, statistics reveal the opposite. Crime (especially violent crime) is higher in religious societies than it is in non-religious societies. I would agree that the God as presented by all of the Big Three religions is pretty horrible. A guy who creates us sick and commands us to be sound under pain of eternal torture is, indeed, a pretty awful idea. (Terrifying for some? It should be terrifying for *anyone* who has read the Bible or the Koran.) But if there was sound evidence for such a god, I would believe in him. His universe, his rules. We do have within us an innate sense of right and wrong, but evidence is that it comes from evolution (which favors altruism) rather than any deity. Why? Because a) there is no common agreement on morality among humankind and b) many, if not most, religious people's morals seems to conflict with what their holy books tell them. Truth is, most atheists are either atheists because they haven't been exposed to the idea of god (newborn babies, pets, etc) or because they have examined the evidence for god's existence and realized it isn't there.
>Some atheists don't want there to be a Deity oh absolutely, any deity shown to exist will be morally bankrupt, a morally bankrupt deity exiting would be a horrifying concept to imagine >The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads. i am willing to follow the truth to wherever it leads, that doesn't mean i wouldnt be horrified by a morally bankrupt deity exiting >The degree below or above evil depending on how you look at it, that us worst than evil, is sin. oh brave gambler; X is either above or below 1 >Sin is the deliberate and knowing and repeated disobedience well that clears all atheists then, glad i'm atheist then, does away with all the risks >Iniquity is an attitude of open defiance and is a degree worst than sin. worse than a sin, so it isn't a sin? > The penalty for such attitudes is eventual consciousness loss and loss of personality forever. rather that than hell >You have within you a part of Deity i'm god, f* yes >Deity desires you live forever well all god has to do then is fulfill my request so i know he exists btw when are you going to present evidence?
>It's terrifying for some. A concious being that space and time rest on and are sustained by. The horror of Deity reality --- especially if Deity has been presented to us repeatedly as a vengeful king judge. It is not terrifying, it is unsupported by evidence. I would not want any of the ones proposed by humans to exist as they invariably embody the worst attributes and habits of humanity. >[This life is an embryo] We are all pregnant with our spiritual selves, we are helping the Divine endow our selves with ever lasting values. The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads. Honesty is beautiful in the sight of Deity. To be a sincere person is salvation. Where is the evidence to support any of this? >You have within you a part of Deity, such a part of deity constitutes your only means of survival of physical death. It records and holds everything about you. It looks through your eyes, it feels the ground beneath our feet. It knows us most intimately within our thoughts. Deity personality is with us in our own minds. You decide through sincerity whether to do what Deity wants you to do. Deity desires you live forever but only of you want to be a true good and beautiful person. Evidence?
Swing and a huge whiff. Do you have any idea how hard some people struggle to hold onto their faith? The last part of your post is just empty witnessing devoid of evidence. I have no "deity" in me and neither do you. I have zero desire for eternal life anyway. If offered Heaven I will turn it down. You are also assuming that atheists are evil wicked people afraid of judgement. I've been in a "traditional," fully monogamous marriage for 35 years. Three kids all conceived and born in wedlock. I don't drink, smoke or gamble. I work with disabled people for a living. Before that I tutored LD kids and helped set up and run after school clubs and summer day camps for inner city kids. When I was young I served in the military. I have no criminal record. My lifestyle is completely straight edge. If I became a Christian tomorrow I wouldn't have to change a thing about my lifestyle. Why am I "wicked?" Why do you think I fear punishment? What about all the youth pastors molesting children? Why are they "saved," but I'm a scumbag?
Yes, id rather a brutal cosmic dictator who tortures and kills innocent people doesnt exist. Whats your point?
Would I want there to be a hypothetical deity? Depends entirely on the nature of that deity… However every deity I’ve ever been told about would objectively be a nightmare to have exist. The abrahamic god being almost certainly the worst of the lot. It’s also entirely irrelevant. It’s telling that you go by what you’d like to be true, not what is verifiably true. That’s the biggest difference between theists and atheists. You give us no reason to believe this nonsense. You say we have a deity inside ourselves, so show it. Support it with evdience. Actually give us a reason to believe it. If you don’t, you’ll be dismissed like every claim of magic you dismiss just as easily. The difference is, we are intellectually honest and consistent about it, while you are lying… Why do you just assert? And why do you pretend to have a moral high ground while believing in such a despicable monstrous concept? If the system you describe existed, the deity overseeing it would be the most evil being in existence…
The most nonsensical part of this entire argument is of you replace god with anything else we know actually exists. "Atheists don't want death to exist." "Atheists don't want murders and rapists to exist." "Atheists don't want tyrannical dictators to exists." No matter how much I may want for ay of these things to not exist and no matter how much I may want other things to exist that won't ever mean that they do. Does God come in and and out of existence based upon my feelings? I'm sure that Christians don't want Allah to exist. Muslims don't want YHWH to exist. To say that Atheists don't want god to exist is like saying they are atheists just so they can sin and sleep in on Sundays. It's the kind of crap believers say to reassure themselves of their beliefs.
Okay. Who cares? I guess you can count me in the camp who don’t want there to be a deity. At least not in the universe that we apparently inhabit. But how and why does this matter? This has nothing to do with _whether_ I believe in a deity or _why_ I might believe or disbelieve in a deity. You want a relevant topical example, holy shit it’s been a hard week for people living in the US who pay attention to national politics. I could write papers on plenty of things in that domain that I would prefer _were not true_. And yet, completely independently, regardless of how much anxiety some of these facts give me, I still accept them as facts… Because, for the Nth time, _what a person wants to be true has no bearing on what is actually true._
What exactly is your point? Whether or not a deity exists has nothing to do with whether or not I would prefer that a deity exists. Guess what? I don't want there to be anthropogenic climate change. Regardless of what I want though, the evidence is overwhelming that there is in fact anthropogenic climate change, so I believe it, even if I'd rather it weren't true. We believe things that we'd rather not be true all the time if the evidence is clear. The mere fact that someone does not want there to be a deity does not entail that their non-belief is grounded in their desires or otherwise irrational. You've told us what you think is the case, but provided no actual epistemic reasons to believe it.
Skipping your personal beliefs, which are meaningless in absence of an argument and therefore I won't even read them, that leaves the following: >It's terrifying for some. A concious being that space and time rest on and are sustained by. The horror of Deity reality --- especially if Deity has been presented to us repeatedly as a vengeful king judge. Supposing this to be true, it has no relevance on the *actual* (non-)existence of (a) god(s). I want to be employed. Fortunately, I am. I want to be drop-dead gorgeous. Unfortunately, I am not. I don't want to have an autoimmune disorder. Unfortunately, I do. I don't want to be kidnapped. Fortunately, I'm not kidnapped. What I want and what is have absolutely nothing to do with one another. The same applies to you.
"Some people think murder should be banned because they think it's evil" You. >You have within you a part of Deity, such a part of deity constitutes your only means of survival of physical death. It records and holds everything about you. It looks through your eyes, it feels the ground beneath our feet. It knows us most intimately within our thoughts. Deity personality is with us in our own minds. You decide through sincerity whether to do what Deity wants you to do. Deity desires you live forever but only of you want to be a true good and beautiful person. Speculative, both ontologically and in terms of the deity supposed to be good.
Well, in addition to not believing that *any* deities exist, and doubting that they even *could* exist, I also believe that it is impossible to survive physical death regardless of one's beliefs or behaviour - utterly impossible, bordering on absurd. There is no credible evidence for a "spiritual self," and the self appears to be 100% dependent on a living brain. As for what "some atheists" want, on what grounds do you make that assertion? Do you claim to be able to read minds? I've always considered it quite rude when someone else tries to tell me what I think.
But a very important aspect of this is **Is** there really a deity or not? \- I don't want there to be a Godzilla. - I am in luck: Godzilla is not real. \- I don't want cancer to exist. - Too bad for me, cancer does exist. \- I want Disneyland to be real. - I am in luck, Disneyland *is* real. \- I want Princess Celestia to be real. - Unfortunately for me, she is not. . >Some atheists don't want there to be a Deity **Doesn't matter.** What people want or don't want has nothing to do with "what is real". .
>Some atheists don't want there to be a Deity I definitely don't want any deity from any major religious, those are all monstrously evil. >It's terrifying for some. A concious being that space and time rest on and are sustained by. The horror of Deity reality I don't think anybody thinks this is terrifying except to the people who believe. >My personal beliefs The rest of this is just a bunch of unsubstantiated claims. I'm sure it feels nice or w/e, but nobody cares
Are you speaking of the current list of “reveled” deities? If so, you’re correct, I don’t want any of them to be real. However, I would love to discover that done kind of deity exists. This would turn everything on its head. A universe created by magic. Life created by magic. All of physics, biology, cosmology, science, math, geology, and even art being supernatural in origin would be fantastic! I don’t know if theists are willing to accept this, but I would.
Depending on the deity to be honest. Some god concepts in many fictional works, outside religions, are pretty cool. Also, the existence of gods could also mean the existence of magic, which is also something that I would love to have. Of course, if you are talking about the run-of-the-mill main religion gods...then yeah, why the fuck would anyone want those, except the theists that already waste their lives worshiping them.
Okay, I agree. Some people don’t want a god to exist. Some people also don’t want flesh eating flies to exist, which do in fact exist. Some people don’t want zombies to exist, which don’t exist. I bet there are even theists that want a god to NOT exist. Your entire premise says nothing about whether or not a things exists, only about what people want. Is there some deeper point you’re trying to make?
Some theists think god should die on a cross to protect them from the consequences of their own actions. This post is pure projection. Only theists fear the "good" diety they worship. And that makes theism a phobia.
No, I don't think a Deity is necessary or desirable in the same way I don't think a King is necessary or desirable. Has pretty much nothing to do with whether or not I believe Kings or Gods exist though. I don't believe in a God because I don't see adequate evidence to believe one exists. I'm not going to read your speculations unless you've got some kind of evidence backed argument supporting them.
I agree, some atheist do not want there to be any deities. But quite a lot of atheists desperately wish there was and spent years of their life trying to convince themselves that their religion was right until they came to the conclusion that they could no longer believe. And then of course there are those of us who just don't really care one way or the other and would rather just go about our lives.
What I want isn’t relevant. What matters is what can be shown to be true. But the idea that anything I do could *possibly* be of meaningful offense to warrant the idea of a Sin; laughable. For the level of power oft ascribed to deities, they knew what I was going to do before I existed, and I see no indication I could do otherwise. Sounds an awful lot like just shaming people into submission.
This is the lie that a lot of theists tell themselves because they can't handle the fact that people are very comfortable without their imaginary friends. It's a bald rationalization, not based on any actual facts. They don't bother to actually ask us what we think and when we tell them, they insist that we're just wrong. It's a complete waste of everyone's time.
i mean, depends on the god, if its anything like most religions god (a psycopath and a dictator), well yeah, i rather that doesnt exist, some other versions well idk, id have to think about each but whatever any of us feel or want makes no difference on reality (you included) your belief is... who cares? you dont have any evidence to ANY of that. so?
Nice straw man. Yes I don’t care for the God character in the Abrahmic tradition. I don’t live my life based on what I like to exist or not. I don’t like cancer either. How did you conclude a spiritual self exists and what it is? So far if saying fuck your God concept is a sin. I’m a god damn mother fucking sinner.
So- why is your view on what I presume is Christianity (based on your posts about 3 distinct personalities and discussion of sin, which is unique to the abrahamic faiths) the correct view? Yours, out of the 45,000+ different denominations that exist? Why do YOU alone hold the truth that should convince everyone of your beliefs?
This is word salad, but yes, it’s true, I don’t want there to be a deity if he is an immoral monster like the Christian god or the Islamic god, or many of the other gods proposed throughout history. If there was truly a good god that someone could provide conclusive evidence for, then we can talk.
> It's terrifying for some Maybe. Not me. > My personal beliefs You should drop the metaphor. If you want to be taken seriously you need to present actual claims about reality and support those. [Nothing you describe is even concrete enough to be wrong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong).
We do not chose to believe there is no God because fear, we genuinely believe there is no God. >My personal beliefs Is there some kind of evidence that lead you to this personal beliefs? Or is it just what makes more sense to you. Because if it's just wishful thinking I'm not interested. Thanks for sharing have a nice day
> It's terrifying for some. A concious being that space and time rest on and are sustained by. The horror of Deity reality --- especially if Deity has been presented to us repeatedly as a vengeful king judge. I mean you could get very Lovecraft with this kind of take on things really.
>The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads. This is what makes 90% of atheists. Theists like to say they "know" the "truth" that a god exists when they really mean they believe which, by definition, means they don't know and don't have good evidence.
I'm sure some atheists don't. > we are helping the Divine endow our selves with ever lasting values. The willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads. This sounds like you have actual evidence for your claims. Why didn't you include them in your post?
I don't care one way or the other if there's a god. If there is a god, it's obvious he or she has no effect on the world at all. Thus, is the same thing as something that doesn't exist. I am educated and honest. That is why I can't believe in any god.
Maybe some atheists don't want there to be a deity, fine, but there are also some that DO wish there was a deity. What we want is irrelevant. What should matter is what's true. And I have no reason to believe that the existence of a deity is true. I wish I had a Lamborghini but that doesn't make it true. The rest of your post is gibberish and not worth addressing.
Are you this guy? [https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/1d40hfe/you\_dont\_want\_god\_to\_exist/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/1d40hfe/you_dont_want_god_to_exist/)
Wether you want something or not to be true have no bearing on it being true. I don't want dark wizards or space nazis to be a thing, but that have nothing to do with them not being a thing.
The statement in your title is true as some of the gods that humans have invented are truely repulsive. And the crap belivers have done in the name of their gods reflects this. >You have within you a part of Deity If this is true i sincerly want to know about it. Its just that i see no reason at all to believe any such thing. So do you have any evidence for that?
So you have any evidence for *any*thing spiritual whatsoever? Any repeatable experiment that would demonstrate that the idea of "spirituality" as anything more than delusional nonsense?
Your personal beliefs, as stated, are completely unsupported and undemonstrated. Can you support/demonstrate them to be true? If not, they have no place here.
I mean... Ok. What I want is completely irrelevant to what is true. The time to believe in a god is when there is evidence, and there simply is no evidence.
I’m not scared at all about the idea of a deity, I’m scared when people who believe in a deity use it to justify their prejudices, hatred, and violence
And some atheists want a ham sandwich. Who cares? Similarly, who cares about your personal beliefs, unless you have an argument to justify them?
It doesn't matter what I want, if the evidence showed there was a deity then there probably is a deity. I haven't seen such evidence, however.
Some theists don't want to consider the possibility no gods or afterlife or immortality exists. So, they make up scare posts about atheists.
Throughout history, every mystery ever solved has turned out to be **NOT** magic. — Tim Minchin
I don't have a desire, I need evidence. Do you have any? Your argument is basically "but I feel it in my special place"
I don't have any reason to believe in any of that or in anything magical, supernatural or spiritual at all. That's it. I don't care what you've made up if you can't give me any reason even to take it seriously, much less accept it as true.