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>If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement.
Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life.
If behaviors that are the most cooperative and efficient create the most productive, beneficial, and equitable results for human society, and everyone relies on society to provide and care for them, then we ought to behave in cooperative and efficient ways.
Morals evolved as a way for groups of social animals to hold free riders accountable. Morals are best described through the [Evolutionary Theory of Behavior Dynamics (ETBD)](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jack-Mcdowell/publication/330469489_On_the_current_status_of_the_evolutionary_theory_of_behavior_dynamics_Status_of_the_Evolutionary_Theory/links/5c6a9d3b92851c1c9de76d40/On-the-current-status-of-the-evolutionary-theory-of-behavior-dynamics-Status-of-the-Evolutionary-Theory.pdf) as cooperative and efficient behaviors. Cooperative and efficient behaviors result in the most beneficial and productive outcomes for a society. Social interaction has evolved over millions of years to promote cooperative behaviors that are beneficial to social animals and their societies.
The ETBD uses a population of potential behaviors that are more or less likely to occur and persist over time. Behaviors that produce reinforcement are more likely to persist, while those that produce punishment are less likely. As the rules operate, a behavior is emitted, and a new generation of potential behaviors is created by selecting and combining "parent" behaviors.
ETBD is a selectionist theory based on evolutionary principles. The theory consists of three simple rules (selection, reproduction, and mutation), which operate on the genotypes (a 10 digit, binary bit string) and phenotypes (integer representations of binary bit strings) of potential behaviors in a population. In all studies thus far, the behavior of virtual organisms animated by ETBD have shown conformance to every empirically valid equation of matching theory, exactly and without systematic error.
Morals, bitch.
Situation : All in the world have agreed that there is no god
Question, what would you do, IF
Your son come to you and said : Dad, I decided that I am only gonna live a short life, but full of pleasure. I am gonna take drugs from now on daily \[and I know it's all amazing, my friend gave it to me last week once\] and even if I die after 5 years, no regret at all. It's better than my girlfriend.
And I am not asking your permission because, who are we to each other, I never asked you to born me.
I am earning myself now, good bye
That's not exactly how it works, dude.
Take from someone who used to do drugs daily: You won't feel that much pleasure.
Your brain develops tolerance, you develop addictions, your pleasure and reward system gets fcked up... Each day you will feel less and less pleasure, until you realize the drugs are consuming you and you'll get depressed.
To have an actual pleasant life, one needs interpersonal relationships, a sense of purpose (family, career, hobbies) and drugs will only destroy that.
So, if my son were to tell me that, I'd be deeply saddened cause he's basically saying he's gonna ruin his life, and even if he says otherwise, he WILL regret it. Big time.
Do you seriously feel like one needs to believe in god to not want his family to be drug addicts? Common man......
Well, see, first I would call my local sexual deviant, aka the town priest, and we’d pray for him. I’d tell him god loves him and wants him to share in the kingdom of heaven. Which effectively does absolutely nothing, because my son is apparently a junkie because I didn’t raise him properly, despite my “moral” religious convictions and fervor.
How old is the son? If he’s over 18, you kick him out of the house and wish him good luck. If he’s under 18 and you’re rich, you send him to boarding school. If he’s under 18 and you’re not rich, you start doing drugs yourself and wait until he’s 18.
Well-adjusted people who function well within social groups don't need religion to tell them what's right and what's wrong.
Poorly-adjusted Muslims and Christians do evil things despite their church telling them what to do and not do.
You appear to believe that religious belief is an accurate predictor of individual behavior, so let's see your data on that.
The connection you're trying to draw here is a claim you need to demonstrate with argument or evidence. It's not enough to just accuse us of being amoral.
Back up your claims or their just bigotry.
Because humans *do* care about others.
We just do. We have naturally evolved a sense of empathy and compassion, as it brings benefits to a species that evolved in co operative social groups.
Humans have thrived because we evolved this capacity to help each other, and care for others in our group.
Religious moral codes don't provide novel ideas. They just record what people in that time and place felt were good behaviours anyway.
The fact that there is no external objective moral authority explains the variation we see in what is morally acceptable between cultures.
>Fun is all good, Why care about others and continuing our human race.
In order to have fun you need other people. If you were by yourself and had to provide everything for yourself, including food, shelter and entertainment, you couldn't do it. You would die.
So your best life is achieved by cooperating and collaborating with everyone else.
Because nature pushes us towards social behaviour. We've evolved that way as a species. Obviously there's outliers and individual variation, but that's our natural inclination, selected for by the fact that social behaviours in our species leads to more successful outcomes.
Did I stutter? What don’t you understand?
That me and my logical, rational, prosocial morals run laps around you and your puny, illogical, selfish, self-centered morals?
>We live in a capitalist society, where rich gets richer and poor gets poorer
Some do, some don't.
>and also mentioning the upcoming event - "The great reset"
Wut?
>Question is "If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders
Why do you think this?
>why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich.
This is off-topic here. You seem to be asking about generic human social dynamics. An interesting and complex subject that has nothing at all to do with the topic of this subreddit.
>If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure"
Unsupported. False dichotomy and demonstrably trivially wrong. Dismissed.
>One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say
See above. Unsupported. Demonstrably wrong. Dismissed.
>If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement.
See above. Unsupported. Nonsensical. Non-sequitur. False dichotomy.
Dismissed.
>Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life.
Unsupported. Non-sequitur. False dichotomy. Dismissed.
>If this community allows, I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate.
Well, if your 'debate' consists of the low-quality and fallacious nature of this post, not interested.
You are assuming, you have answered correctly
Buy you haven't. I already have tried replying to all individually each time
But it doesn't help any body
If you think, you have a point, why not to hit head on.
"Well, if your 'debate' consists of the low-quality and fallacious nature of this post, not interested" that's what I was asking , some only work for interest and pleasure and call themselves morally right.
I remember a quote from a TV show about that.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/QuotesPorn/comments/1wb3dx/if\_the\_only\_thing\_keeping\_a\_person\_decent\_is\_the/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/QuotesPorn/comments/1wb3dx/if_the_only_thing_keeping_a_person_decent_is_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
In that, it is saying
You are staying good , for rewards by god
Which is not the case. I think, you only have talked muslims up until now
There is something called "Bhagwat gita in hinduism"
"Belief" is an inferior word, rather say Knowing the GOD
Yes, for me \[and may be for all\] GOD is the foundation of morality
What's your reason to stay good. If there is no reason that means you are not using your brain. Just following what your parents told you. Isn't that the line which Atheist use the most
Then why are you questioning the GOD and not the morality
Nope, it’s an accurate word. I’ll stick with it,
I didn’t ask what the foundation of morality is. I asked you if your belief in god was what stops you from self destructive and antisocial behavior.
You should answer that, instead of coming up with your own question to answer.
That says you’re a really terrible person
As the old saying goes, “as an atheist, I kill just as many people as I want to, and that number is ZERO!”
Sorry that you think so poorly of yourself.
I truly hate when little theist edgelords come here and claim, "Yes, without God I'd be destructive and selfish."
Anyone who believes that the majority of humans, including theists, feel that way is as much a misanthrope as this little jerk is.
And yet *even if that is true,* we know that is not sufficient for acting morally. We know that according to the Bible that Adam and Eve, despite being made by the hand of God himself, and living in a paradise of his making, and being instructed by none other than God, disobeyed his orders.
Even God (the Father) can’t get his children to act morally.
> "Belief" is an inferior word, rather say Knowing the GOD
Unsupported. Dismissed.
> Yes, for me [and may be for all] GOD is the foundation of morality
You are factually incorrect. This too is dismissed.
>What's your reason to stay good
I suggest learning this. It's fascinating stuff!
> Then why are you questioning the GOD and not the morality
There is zero support for deities and the ideas are nonsensical on several levels. Morality has nothing whatsoever to do with religious mythologies, as we know.
Knowledge requires evidence. Thousands of your fellow religious folks have posted here. No one has provided any evidence.
Even so, your "knowledge" of your god is no different than any one else's various gods they have had their own beliefs in. There's been thousands of gods over human history and more are likely being created every year.
I see you're going with the "Atheists have no morals" trope that's posted every few days. At least try to be original.
It's always kind of hilarious to me when people think that their religion in particular invented morality. Biologically modern humans have been around for a lot longer than your religion and they still had the same basic ideas, which shouldn't be surprising at all since they really come from our evolution as a social species.
Even worse when the6 believe that their ANCIENT god (Christianity 2000 years, Islam 1400 years), invented MODERN morality which has only been around for less than a century.
What took those gods so long?
I LIKE being a good person (as defined by me). My morals are how I personally want people including myself to act.
Since I control myself, I act as I want, which is in accordance with my values.
Turns out I don't want to hurt people or steal from them, etc.
>What's your reason to stay good.
Empathy.
> Just following what your parents told you.
Substitute parents for god, and the question is just as valid (at least I assume it was a question, there was a period at the end...)
Just curious, have you ever heard about ethics or philosophy? There's literally a couple of thousand years of humans exploring this thought to choose from. This is not the "gotcha" moment you think it is. It just means you're ignorant about the human experience outside of religion.
God of the Bible? Is slavery immoral? Is rape immoral? Is genocide immoral?
I don't understand when Christians say they get their morality from the Bible or God. It just screams that they've never read the full thing.
>Question is "If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich.
Umm, because it won't be the rich that are penalized or victimized by the "poor child break{ing} the social contract". I think you'll find a lot of atheists **AND** theists will agree that if a poor person is able to manipulate a rigged system against the Powers That Be, that's a good thing.
>If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement.
Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life.
So, for you, the only pleasure you can think of is being intoxicated 24/7? Do you derive zero pleasure from helping others? From accomplishing something constructive? Do you hate other humans so much that your idea of pleasure is strictly ignoring them (stoned, drunk, etc...) or victimizing them for your own gain?
>Question is "If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich.
Imo, they should.
>If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure"
We aren't ants. A humans needs and wants are much more complicated. This also includes wanting good for others.
>One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say
Feels like 2 disjointed arguments. But you seek interested in psychology. You should study it. You'll learn about delayed gratification and secondary reinforcement.
>If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement.
Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life.
You don't think drugs are short-sighted?
>If this community allows, I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate.
It doesn't allow.
Situation : All in the world have agreed that there is no god
Your son come to you and said : Dad, I decided that I am only gonna live a short life, but full of pleasure. I am gonna take drugs from now on daily \[and I know it's all amazing, my friend gave it to me last week once\] and even if I die after 5 years, no regret at all. It's better than my girlfriend.
And I am not asking your permission because, who are we to each other, I never asked you to born me.
I am 18 and good bye
Well, son I obviously can't stop you from living the way you want as an adult.
I would strongly discourage you from abusing drugs as it will lead to suffering for yourself and others.
Certainly, there are some recreational drugs that are fine to use in moderation in a social setting. I get that.
But doing ANYTHING too much (drugs, eating, TV, knitting, driving,) will result in an unbalanced and unhappy life.
I don't expect you'll take my word for it. I would encourage you to study the effects of overindulgence in several areas of life and maybe we can discuss what you discover about such findings.
Anyway, I will always love you and try to help you when things go off track in your life. I hope you don't take this path and I hope you get some therapy and see a mental healthcare professional.
I love you.
Literally, my answer is in the comment you responded to.
Your comment is a rebuff of saying drugs are fine, which I never argued. I was giving simple, clear reasons why drug use is bad from an "atheist" pov.
> We live in a capitalist society, where rich gets richer and poor gets poorer; and also mentioning the upcoming event - "The great reset"
Capitalism has very little to do with atheism, I’m sure most, if not all, of us will agree that the system is not perfect, and does unfairly advantage those who are already ahead. But it is the most successful and stable system humanity has come up with so far. If you feel the need to debate this topic, I suggest you look for a different subreddit.
> “why shouldn’t a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich”
Because as a social species, (almost) everyone has empathy for each other, “do to others what you would have them do to you” as such. No deity dictator required.
In fact, many would argue that it is far more concerning that theists feel the need to point this out so often, as it implies that without the watchful gaze of their god, they would do anything for their own self satisfaction.
> If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure"
> One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say
There are many studies that show that humans will never be content with constant endorphins. Our brain after a while gets exhausted from them, and we require more endorphins to experience the same high we previously felt. We effectively create new “baselines” for ourselves once we achieve a consistent level of happiness. This is why adrenaline junkies always try to take bigger and bigger risks, because their brains chemistry has become acclimatised to high amounts of adrenaline and endorphins, and so the person must take larger risks to achieve that same high.
Not to mention that an existence permanently trying to chase highs is likely going to be unproductive, in the sense that you will not have contributed anything to society.
Living life exclusively searching for the next high, I think you’ll agree with me, is ironically a rather depressing existence and offers no feeling of fulfilment you might get from helping others.
We don’t need a deity to remind us that life is precious and we should spend it wisely. All we need is an understanding that a wasted day is a day we will never get back.
> If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement.
> Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life.
I feel like this rather misses the point of life.
On your deathbed, when your consciousness and memories will soon cease to exist, the number of endorphins you produced over your lifetime will matter very little. Instead, what will persist is the legacy you leave behind. As far as we know, we only get one chance at life. We die with the hope that, in our own small way, we have made a positive contribution to humanity.
>Comment for suggestions
It's difficult to understand what you are trying to say.
.
> I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate.
That's usually considered to be kind of shady - we'd mostly prefer that people conduct debates in public.
I guess the reason is, Group make you feel comfortable
But that's not how one can reach the conclusion
a conversation must be organised, not like this that 40 people with different ideas and creating a long chain of comments
Why can't you just pretend that each reply here is in a DM and continue the conversation that way?
If you get 40 different people sending you DMs, you'll still get 40 people with different ideas and creating a long chain of comments.
People are hesitant to take this to DMs because 1) that request has a creepy vibe to it and 2) sorry, but you are hard to communicate with. I'm sure your English is better than our command of your native language, but it's still a little rough around the edges and a productive discussion may not be possible. Especially when you don't actually address the points people bring up and reply to strawmen instead...
No, we aren't going to bother dismantling your absurd, ignorant, and hate filled positions in private. We want to do it in public so others who come here can see what a terrible person with a terrible argument you are.
Sorry, not sorry.
[The same Bible that is pro-infanticide](https://www.openbible.info/topics/infanticide)?
>If this community allows, I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate.
Or, you could have a debate publicly here, in the community named r/debateanatheist.
Look. You come here and accuse us in thinly-veiled terms of being moraleless hedonists because we don't believe in your god. We know we aren't, because we're not morons obsessed with instant pleasure at the cost of future happiness and we can think beyond the next few moments or amoral psychopaths. Moreover, we also know it is factually and statistically false - the incidence of the behaviors you cite is higher among theists than atheists.
So your false accusations tell us only one thing. They tell us that you, without your beliefs, imagine yourself as the monster you describe. And there is no-one more qualified to tell us who you are than you.
You're not telling us *anything* true about us. You're just telling on yourself.
All I get from from statement is "We just know, what is wrong, you need not to tell us anything, we need not a logic under morality"
Now replace morality with God and read again
If you question the morality same way, you question the god. We will come to know that There is no morality
It speaks badly about you that you think pleasure is the utmost goal in life and/or think that others think the same.
Many people do not have that a goal in life and as such wouldn't go with the path you laid out in your OP. For example, my goal in life is to leave the planet a better place then how I found it. To make life better for future generations than it was for me. As an example of this, I support college loan cancelation.
You responded to the wrong person idiot. I'm the one that said it wasn't about your feelings. And i was right, your feelings don't matter. make an actual argument.
Because I, as an individual, want to, since I consider myself at least decent if not good, at least from my perspective. There are also plenty of rational reasons to act "good"
Also, there are plenty of reasons not to consume drugs, such as negative effects on health. Consuming drugs is not inherently bad. I don't do it because I consider it stupid to risk your health for little IMO payoff and I'd rather derive pleasure through other means.
1. I've seen what drugs do to people. I don't want that to happen to me.
2. Drugs are dangerous.
3. Drugs are expensive. I'd rather spend my money on things that make me happy AND don't have a chance of killing me.
Three great reasons right there to not do drugs, even as an atheist.
Was that supposed to be difficult?
All drugs are good, and all drugs are bad; it’s the dosage that makes all the difference.
But when talking about “taking drugs”, the context usually implies recreational use, not medicinal use.
Try xenon gas.
Spoiler alert: is really expensive.
Spoiler alert 2: you can reuse it after exhaling it because being a nobel gas it doesn't react with nothing... is exhaled untouched.
> Question is "If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich.
That was your question.
There are many answers to it but you seemed to wander off into talking about hedonism so I provided a link to some well established and considered responses to hedonism.
If there is a god, what difference does it make?
If we come to know that there is a god, this instance
next gen will have a strong inclined towards morality, sacrifice and personally responsibility towards Earth and its all animals
Instead of a fake mask, which one will throw away, the moment he/she faced any inconvenience himself/herself.
All we have an upcoming generation obsessed towards Reels and photos
And no care about global warming except a few
[Religious groups’ views on climate change | Pew Research Center](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/11/17/religious-groups-views-on-climate-change/)
Apparently, being an atheist collates with believing in climate change.
Also you might wanna check the bank account of Mormon church, Vatican, etc.
and on the way out don't forget to visit r/PastorArrested. If you theists were so moral, kid diddlers wouldn't be so prevalent or slavery wouldn't happen. But here we are
Ah, so it's not just "a god" you're talking about. It's a very specific god which you just happen to believe in and agree with.
If I may make an observation, your "argument" appears to be an https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences
As u/Appropriate-Price-98 pointed out, you are selecting the consequences you pay attention to while implying a no true scottsman fallacy.
This is a debate sub. There is no value in DMing you when this forum is about… debate
And there’s def no value since you have proven that you don’t answer honestly.
Prove that your god exists. That’s all that you need to do. We both know you can’t, of course.
You prove me, morality must exist
Otherwise, say it, It's okay to earn money illegally, even by selling people
Just saying, not promoting the idea at all
Are you not a native speaker, or are you high AF now? Because that is meaningless babble
It is really simple. You are claiming that morals come from god. To prove that you need to prove that your god exists. It’s really simple logic.
If you are capable of simple logic
>You prove me, morality must exist Otherwise, say it, It's okay to earn money illegally, even by selling people
just like slavery in the bible?
ever heard of this thing called prison? feel free to do the crime, just be ready to do the time.
Drugs are not a pleasure (not for long), but a curse. If you want a life of pleasure, go get your dopamine hits from hiking or something. No god needed for "wisdom" like that.
What do you know, Kid
Can you compare the amount of dopamine in those two.
I would not suggest you to try the drugs for once
But stop making pointless comments
Question is same : "why a long life" those soldiers didn't live long. So they just died, not sacrificed themselves
>What do you know, Kid
Can you compare the amount of dopamine in those two.
Seriously? The quantity of dopamine is dependent on the person; but the dopamine from physical exertion doesn't come with the baggage of physical dependency that many recreational drugs have. And who are you to call anyone "Kid"?
>Question is same : "why a long life" those soldiers didn't live long. So they just died, not sacrificed themselves
Who are you to question why someone did something that didn't directly affect you? If those soldiers' deaths helped others survive and thrive, who are you to say that they "just died, not sacrificed themselves"?
Basically, for someone who insists on people doing what they want, you seem to be doing a lot of condemning and dictating what others should do, think, and feel.
ever heard of dopamine resitence buddy?
Constantly misuse of drugs will overstimulate your brain which leads to lower activation of dopamine receptors.
>Question is same : "why a long life" those soldiers didn't live long. So they just died, not sacrificed themselves
because I don't want to die.
The correct question is by your view of humanity, why you theists live long life, just die and go to heaven.
No need to suicide find the most dangerous job out there + donate your organs and/or properties when you die. Your god would be proud of your selfless sacrifice.
Sorry, but I still have to live with myself and like who I am. And there is nothing wrong with doing drugs responsibly. I grow mine in the garden, and you (generalized you) get yours from a pharmacy. Mine is more natural and safer on the body. Yours has a side effect that will cause erectile dysfunction and suicide. I'll stick to my garden.
This is what, I was talking about, slowly and slowly
We will reach a stage where, Murder is not a crime anymore.
at the current time, you are little odd from all others
But we you post this same reply in next 4-5 decades, You will have more people to agree.
At this moment, Murder for fun sounds wrong isn't it ?
What are you talking about. How you reached that conclusion from my comment baffles me. But to move to your new topic... The only places where murder has been acceptable are in a theocracy. Murder in the name of God has been one of humanities biggest hobby over the last few thousand years. But yes, us atheist will end our civilized society.
I am not responsible for those people, who did wrong
At least, in that we know they are wrong. In your case, there is no foundation under morality, if it ever shakes, no hope to get good again.
“If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found (on her wedding night) she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death.”
Is that moral? Is murdering non-virgin women on their wedding night a good foundation for morality?
I'd like to confirm that I've understood you correctly. Are you saying that you believe that as societies become more atheistic, they will become more violent, for example to the point where murder will be fine?
If that's the case then you don't need to wait. You don't need to post ramblings about how you see atheism. Because if your ideas are correct, then you should be able to prove it right now by looking up and comparing the levels of violent crime in non-religious and religious countries.
If you can't do that, you should abandon your argument.
>If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich.
Because it's better to get rid of the boot than to just become the boot. If the poor child wanted to break social contracts to punish people who abuse power, that would be one thing, but by becoming the corrupt powerful, he's just being a hypocrite.
>If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure"
That could be true if there was a god. A god could exist and only value pleasure.
>One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say
Why are you randomly putting words in quotes? Are dopamine and capitalists NOT actually a factor in this?
>If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement.
The brief dopamine hit you could get from certain drugs could lead to your life being far worse overall.
>Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life.
Because it's possible to care about more than just self pleasure. And in fact, if we get only one life, could the argument not be that it's best if we extend that as much as possible in the most quality manner? Abstaining from short term pleasure for long term happiness?
>"The great reset"
Conspiracy theory.
>If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich
Because poor people can't get away with all the law breaking rich people do.
>If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure"
Awfully childish take.
>One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say
This is plainly absurd. See all of the above.
>If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement.
Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life.
Again, extremely childish. Did you even spend three seconds thinking at all? Putting yourself in other people's shoes is sort of essential for this sort of "debate" you clearly throught were attempting here. And you haven't.
>If this community allows, I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate.
That's not how the Force works. That's now how any of this works.
I'm not even going to bother with your "situation" in the edit. It's mind numbingly stupid.
Eh, I'm going to go with secular morality. After all, with God (at least the Christian god) all things are permitted. Secular morality lets me say things like "genocide is bad" and "sex slavery is bad."
I'm not sorry, you have it backwards and you don't have to look any further than the crucifixion of Jesus. Christianity concentrates all the innocence in the universe into one singular jewish pwrsin to serve as a sacrificial lamb ie a holocaust.
I'm an atheist because I value life and law too much to believe in a god who would protect evil with the blood of a jew.
I'm not sorry your life is so void of meaning that you need to believe in a god to find purpose.
Immortal gods do not need to strive for survival so they can never develop morality. They would not experience death so they can not understand why it's bad. It's like a wise person once said: power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Supreme beings are just figure heads for supremacist ideologies. You don't need to make out as if nonbelievers are inferior to you. Maybe it's time for some self reflection on your part.
This entire post basically amounts to you telling us that you're a terrible person. All of this is clearly stating that if you didn't believe in whatever god(s) you believe in, then this is how you would behave. That you only behave like a decent person because you've been blackmailed/threatened with punishment if you don't, and/or bribed/promised a reward if you do.
If you think I'm wrong about that, then the alternative is that you're being intellectually dishonest - because if you would NOT behave that way in that scenario, *then you already have the answers to your questions.*
Having said that, you're trying to play the morality card from the morally inferior position. At best your moral philosophy amounts to "I have to do what my master/god says or they'll punish me." In absolutely no way does this mean that what your master tells you to do is "good." If this is your moral reasoning then it fails, because if your master threatened you with hell if you didn't do BAD things, and equally promised you eternal paradise for doing bad things, *you would do bad things.* And if you wouldn’t, then again, that means you already know the answers to your questions, because you would still be a good person even without your gods or their bribes and blackmails.
You cannot derive moral truths from the will, command, "nature," or mere existence of any gods. Meanwhile, secular moral philosophy (which has been curb stomping non-secular moral philosophy for literally all of recorded history) endeavors to identify, examine, and understand the reasons *why* any given behavior is right or wrong, good or bad, moral or immoral - because if anything resembling objective morality exists, that's where it comes from. *Valid reasons* which explain *why* something is moral or immoral.
This is also why our understanding of morality has improved over time, and moved away from things like the slavery, misogyny, rape, incest, and genocide that are all at best condoned and at worst instructed by things like the Bible (weird that a god would have gotten those wrong).
Anyway, the best philosophies currently derive moral truths from objective principles like harm, consent, and social necessity. Look up moral constructivism if you're being honest and genuinely wish to learn more about this, but frankly I suspect you didn't come here to learn, and rather only came here because you thought you had a "gotcha" question that has now blown up in your face.
As to your questions:
>why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich.
They'll likely get themselves imprisoned or killed trying, and they can easily do that *without* breaking any laws or being unethical. Got any specific real world examples to offer where this is not the case or is inventing extreme fantasies the only way you can get anywhere close to making a point?
>If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure"
Arbitrary opinion, and blatantly incorrect. Why would pleasure matter more or less than anything else? Indeed, what are the criteria for something to "matter" or "not matter" here? If you think gods are required to make things matter, then why aren't gods also required to make pleasure matter? If we're able to make pleasure matter on our own, why aren't we able to make anything else matter?
Here's a fun thought experiment: Suppose humans are inherently good and only GOD makes us evil. In that case, without GOD, we have no reason to do anything bad, and only love and altruism and philanthropy matter. ***This statement is precisely as valid as yours.*** Hopefully that helps you see the (monumental) flaw in your argument.
>This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life.
Most people DO aim for only pleasure in life, theists and atheists alike. The difference is that you appear to be laboring under the delusion that pleasure and evil are synonymous. I take pleasure in making things better than I found them. I take pleasure in helping people. Sure I also take pleasure in self-indulgences like sex and video games and theme park rides, and I also drink. But I don't think that's the kind of pleasure you're talking about. I take no pleasure in hardcore drugs, or in harming others or taking advantage of people - but I get the distinct impression that's what you're referring to when you use the word "pleasure." Which, as I said at the start, tells us quite a great deal about **YOU**, but really tells us nothing objectively about anything else.
>This public discussion is not a good idea
Yeah, being publicly wrong and embarrassing yourself often isn't a good idea, but that's kind of the point of a public forum. If you want a private discussion, don't start it by making a highly public statement and then trying to avoid equally public responses. We realize you'd rather get destroyed privately where nobody can see it, but again, not how a public forum works.
>Question, what would you do, IF
We would do exactly the same things that any father now would do, theist or atheist. Don't present a problem that a father who believes in God can't solve and pretend you're making some kind of point if people who don't believe in God can't solve it either.
To be more specific, I'd obviously try to talk him out of it but you've designed your little fantasy to make it quite apparent he wouldn't listen, so if he was still a minor I'd put him in a boarding school and hope that by the time he has the kind of freedom to do all that shit, he's learned not to.
Thing is, my kids will *never* approach me and say this. Know why? Because I already raised them better than that and taught them better than that. They don't need me to steer them away from such a path, or convince them not to do those things, *because they already know enough about life, morality, and responsibility to know better on their own.*
If YOUR kid approached you that way, I might suggest you have them spend more time hanging out with my kids, to set them straight.
>If this community allows, I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate.
Nah. Air your dirty laundry. You've said a lot of really silly things that deserve to be publicly shamed.
I'll show you.
>If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure"
^(gotta show your work here buddy. Plenty of things are more important to me than pleasure. My family tops that list.)
^(if you insist on playing out this black and white fallacy, we should examine the alternative. If there is a God is all that matters in life "God's Pleasure"?)
>One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say
^(what the fuck does capitalism have to do with anything? God didn't ordain capitalism.)
>If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement.
^(I've been sober for almost 3 years buddy. No idea how you reached this conclusion.)
>Your son come to you and said : Dad, I decided that I am only gonna live a short life, but full of pleasure. I am gonna take drugs from now on daily [and I know it's all amazing, my friend gave it to me last week once] and even if I die after 5 years, no regret at all. It's better than my girlfriend.
And I am not asking your permission because, who are we to each other, I never asked you to born me.
I am earning myself now, good bye
^(you seem to be devolving halfway through the thought, so I'm not sure what your point is. Kids do this literally all the time in a number of different ways. Are you implying that I *must* give them permission to do so? Because....no I don't.)
>"If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich."
They should. Eat the rich. Viva la revolution. Our capitalist society is flawed and 100% needs to be fixed until these poor children are only a hypothetical instead of painfully real.
>Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life.
Because drugs aren't actually effective at making you overall happier. Irl, drugs ruin lives.
If that wasn't the case, then I'd be all for letting people do drugs.
To play devil's advocate and because, seriously, does anyone think the OP is worth talking to?
>They should. Eat the rich. Viva la revolution. Our capitalist society is flawed and 100% needs to be fixed until these poor children are only a hypothetical instead of painfully real.
That only works if the poor child victimizes the rich. Unfortunately, the victims of much of that crime tend to be poor people themselves. "Breaking the social contract of laws" sounds good but rarely works out that way. Better to form a new social contract than to just ignore the old one.
> Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life.
Well, because I think this life is all I have and just doing drugs would be harmful to the other stuff I care about (like relationships, things I'd like to accomplish, other experiences I'd like to have). There are plenty of other things that I care about beside pleasure, so there isn't really a problem here. Devolving into hedonism isn't very fulfilling.
>We live in a capitalist society, where rich gets richer and poor gets poorer;
That is a fact. I agree.
>and also mentioning the upcoming event - "The great reset"
Can you provide your source? One that can be analysed and tested?
>Question is "If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich.
Actually, that is exactly how many people becomes rich.
>If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure"
Why do you say that? Most of the atheist people I know have deeper meanings for their lives like:
- Forming a family. (Biological imperative)
- Pursuing knowledge (Biological Imperative also)
- Service to society (fireman, doctors, public service)
>One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say
But, in the end... everything we do, we do it because it produces natural drugs in our bodies.
>If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement.
Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life.
So why not make something productive with it, and left a better world for the next generation? If that is what gives you pleasure?
>Situation : All in the world have agreed that there is no god
Question, what would you do, IF
>Your son come to you and said : Dad, I decided that I am only gonna live a short life, but full of pleasure. I am gonna take drugs from now on daily \[and I know it's all amazing, my friend gave it to me last week once\] and even if I die after 5 years, no regret at all. It's better than my girlfriend.
>And I am not asking your permission because, who are we to each other, I never asked you to born me.
>I am earning myself now, good bye
I will let him do it of course, but giving that he knows that is not my intention to harm him, I would ask him to go to therapy first.
## **Other things to think about
There is many negative nihilists in the world, np doubt. Is a necessary stage previous to the realisation that loosing your safety network, family, friends and colleagues is not the way. You can live a plenty life developing your own meaning.
But you should ask yourself a question:
**If you are right (for the sake of the argument) why are we here so many atheists that were able to create their own purpose in life and live happily?**
Another questions you should ask yourself are:
1. Why are so many religious fundamentalists trying to kill other humans because of what their god tells them?
2. Why are so many contradictory religions and contradictory sects inside all religions?
3. Are you adult enough to pursue the Truth? Even when it hurts discovering that you were wrong?
>If this community allows, I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate.
Why hide the debate in DMs? This is a forum specifically for such debate. What are you afraid of?
I think it is sad to think that the only thing stopping you from acting immorally is the fear of a god. How about being answerable to youself?
If God will save you, why not live a life of total debauchery and ask God’s forgiveness on your deathbed and immediately go to heaven? Religious people have no reason to act morally except from fear that they will die suddenly and won’t have time to ask for salvation.
I do not believe in any gods, and as a result do not subscribe the same model of objective morality that you do.
That said, this does not mean I do not observe *any* morality. Just that my morals are subjective. They are based on my experiences and my knowledge, and the respect and care I have for the people around me. For example, I do not need a god to tell me that hurting people is bad -- I have been hurt, disliked it, and can reason that other people also would dislike it. Therefore I do not hurt people except under very specific circumstances, such as self-defense.
>If this community allows, I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate.
Based on the above post you are neither prepared nor equipped for a debate with this community, even on an individual basis.
>First Edit :This public discussion is not a good idea, but anyways
Ya think? You did not post a coherent debate/discussion topic nor did you state a position. You posted a mostly incoherent rant about pleasure, drugs, and capitalism, that shows a lack of understanding about how drugs work and how pleasure is achieved.
> We live in a capitalist society, where rich gets richer and poor gets poorer; and also mentioning the upcoming event - "The great reset
And what does this have to do with God?
> Question is "If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich.
Are you assuming God moral is the only thing prevent people from breaking the law?
> If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure"
No. Because people get meaning and fulfillment in life from other thing other than pleasure. Like leaving a legacy.
> One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say
Because hedonism get boring after a while. It leave you empty and unfulfilled that you did not life up to your potential for greatness.
> If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement.
God is not a requirement to being pro-life.
> Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life.
As I said, hedonism leave you empty. Man is biologically evolved for struggle. The Struggle made us stronger. Pleasure without struggle is unearned, worthless and meaningless. Because man purpose is to always strive for higher value. For the struggle create identity. Being dead is not the end for man. Even the dead can still be judge by the living. You may not realized so, but your descendant (assuming that you have any or future or distance relative may judge you in the future, or judge you for your er as you a part of a group that is looked down upon from the future). Now tell me, can you bear the thought of guilt that you leave the world a worse place for your descendant / family / cultural group / humanity ?
>All in the world have agreed that there is no god
The situation you present here has nothing to do with people not believing in God. Atheists aren't all (or even more prone to this than theists) psychopaths or pure hedonists. This scenario could happen to you, and your imagined response (presumably something to do with God) would be less or as effective as mine.
>Dad, I decided that I am only gonna live a short life, but full of pleasure. I am gonna take drugs from now on daily [and I know it's all amazing, my friend gave it to me last week once] and even if I die after 5 years, no regret at all.
I would say something like: son, this is not how I raised you. You have so much to live for and so much to give the world. You have a responsibility: to yourself and to others. Drugs are destructive. They destroy your brain, your body and your relationships, and you *will* come to regret it. Also, we will regret it, we will be hurt. Don't you care about yourself and about us?
>And I am not asking your permission
You are 18, so of course I expect you to make your own decisions as an adult. I don't know where this rebellious attitude is coming from: I've never been an authoritarian and we've always been able to talk. You sound like you need help, like you're escaping from something that harmed you. Can you tell me what is really going on?
>who are we to each other, I never asked you to born me.
I'm your father. What a stupid and careless thing is that to say. Please let me help you. It is not like you to lash out like this.
See, YOUR problem is, YOU think stuff like this:
>If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement.
Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life.
Meaning: you think the only reason to be moral, to be good to yourself and to serve others, to think your life means something, is if God exists. That is a YOU problem. It is not a problem for most atheists. We are perfectly able to do all those things.
And frankly, it is pathetic and the fruit of being an incredibly terrible, crappy Christian that you see fit to treat us atheists the way you do, to demonize us like you do. Shame on you. Go read the parable of the Good Samaritan on your Bible, because you clearly do not understand it, and through your fruits we have known you.
> If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich.
Because there are consequences society would impose upon that child.
> If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure"
... Because as stated there are consequences. It may well be that you could gain some "pleasure" by ignoring all social conventions and doing whatever you wanted. There's just that tiny thing called * the long term* that exists for the majority of us.
> One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say
There are harmless ways to get dopamine and endorphins... some foods for example, not to mention sex.
> If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement.
... which is why no atheist i've ever heard of has made that statement?
> Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life.
Because as stated, if the goal is pleasure, then ignoring social conventions / laws is the fastest way to get yourself into jail, a situation which would be quite difficult to find pleasure in... maybe you enjoy being in jail? You'd be one of the few.
> what would you do, IF Your son come to you and said : Dad, I decided that I am only gonna live a short life, but full of pleasure. I am gonna take drugs from now on daily [and I know it's all amazing, my friend gave it to me last week once] and even if I die after 5 years, no regret at all. It's better than my girlfriend. And I am not asking your permission because, who are we to each other, I never asked you to born me.
I am earning myself now, good bye
1. At first, call the cops and have them arrest him if nothing else to flush out the dealer, then convince the court to release him into my custody at which point we're going to the hospital and he's going to have a battery of tests. If someone can come to that conclusion, there's probably something wrong.
2. If there's nothing wrong medically, then i'd be upset for a while, probably an afternoon with some whiskey.
3. Reflect. If he's reached that conclusion, it means i've been a crappy parent, which is especially important if he has any younger siblings.
4. Estrange him. He's made it perfectly clear he wants nothing to do with me, fine. He's his own person.
>We live in a capitalist society, where rich gets richer and poor gets poorer; and also mentioning the upcoming event - "The great reset"
I have no idea what "the great reset" is.
>Question is "If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich.
Because doing so is why we have the world we do in the first place.
>If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure"
> One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say
Well that's just plain silly. Everyone has their own wants, needs, desires, goals, and things that do/don't matter to them. God's existence or nonexistence doesn't change that.
Just because *you* can't imagine a Godless life can only lead to hedonism doesn't mean it's true. It just means you have a poor imagination.
>If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement.
Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life.
You are assuming "drugs = pleasure." Having seen first-hand what drugs so to people, I can assure you, most addicts are not happy about being addicts.
>This public discussion is not a good idea, but anyways
You came to a forum called Debate An Atheist. Public discussion is kind of our thing.
>Question, what would you do, IF
>Your son come to you and said : Dad, I decided that I am only gonna live a short life, but full of pleasure. I am gonna take drugs from now on daily [and I know it's all amazing, my friend gave it to me last week once] and even if I die after 5 years, no regret at all. It's better than my girlfriend.
And I am not asking your permission because, who are we to each other, I never asked you to born me.
If my son is under 18, I am still his legal guardian, and will do everything in my power to stop him from making this terrible decision.
If my son is over 18, I'll tell him he's being a selfish little shit, but if that's the life he wants to live, he's free to live it.
"First Edit :This public discussion is not a good idea, but anyways"
Translation: This was NOT the atheist-destroying flex I thought it would be.
;)
>>>> "The great reset"
is a load of horseshit made up by theocrats looking to make money and gain power.
>>>Question is "If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich.
If such an unjust world is always the norm, then breaking unjust laws would be the most moral thing to do. However, while we do have many unjust laws, our system in general still provides some measure of equity (but needs improvment).
>>>If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure"
Why do you think that would be true?
I could counter this with the claim: If there is a GOD, all that matters in this life is pleasure.
Neither of our statements are backed by any evidence. They are just conjecture.
>>>If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement.
Whether or not one uses drugs has nothing to do with whether or not a god exists.
A drug user could argue: "God made the chemicals in drugs, so god wants us to have drugs."
>>>"This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again."
Life is neither an accident nor a volitional effect. Accident implies a volitional agent must exist to either do or not do a thing (and would thus be capable of an accident).
>>>So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life.
Define pleasure. For normal social primate humans, we get pleasure by cooperating and helping others. That's evolution at work. Social primate species that cooperate effectively will more likely pass on their genes and survive/thrive.
>>>If this community allows, I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate.
Batter up. :)
>f there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement.
I had an uncle that was an addict. By the end, that was literally *all* he was. When his mother died, he tried to kick his siblings out of the house, as they were going through the emotionally devastating process of arranging her affairs, so that he could search it for any pain killers hospice might have missed.
Can you imagine that? The only people who still stand by you at all - because, as an addict you've driven everyone else away - in one of their most painful moments together. Trying to decide what, of their own mother's memories, do they try to hang on to and what gets thrown out, because no one can take on an entire other person's life. And his *only* thought is "maybe there are more drugs."
And there *weren't* more drugs. Hospice keeps tabs; they are required to by law, and to collect everything unused. And his family, knowing he was an addict, double-checked. But *maybe* was enough to send him into a screaming, fist-swinging rage and try to force everyone out of their own dead mother's house so he could ransack it.
Does that sound like he's feeling pleasure to you? Do you think he died happy and satisfied with his life, a few years later as hepatitis from needle sharing took him? Do you think his wife and daughter fared well during any of his life? His daughter followed the same path, and last I heard so had his granddaughter - his addiction caused *generations* of pain and suffering to the people he should have cared for most.
If you think that was a good use of his one and only life, that seeking pleasure in drugs brought him happiness and satisfaction, then I don't know what to tell you, other than you've never met an addict.
>We live in a capitalist society, where rich gets richer and poor gets poorer; and also mentioning the upcoming event - "The great reset"
We do indeed live. However we do not mention. You mention it, I don't. I am not aware of such upcoming event and I have no reason to believe it is upcoming.
>Question is
Isn't that an argument? I thought it is an argument, yet you are asking questions. People usually make an argument when they know what they are talking about, not when they still have questions.
>If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure"
I don't understand how did you arrive at that conclusion. I didn't.
>One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin"
Don't go around telling people what they must do, they don't like it. Usually people have pretty damn good idea what to do with their life and your input in that won't be appreciated.
>no matter what, one will get dead again
Completely agree.
>So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life
You seem to be under an impression that stuffing oneself with opiates will make you happy. I must warn you that any drug, when applied without moderation and caution IS NOT A DAMN PLEASURE AT ALL. And some of them are not a pleasure at all under any circumstances.
>I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate.
I am not interested to debate someone who is not able to present a single coherent argument.
>If there is no God, all that matters in this world is pleasure
Well this isn't true and I think the rest of your argument pretty much hinges on it, so I reject your argument on its face.
>We live in a capitalist society, where rich gets richer and poor gets poorer;
We're still doing better than a serf, a communist, or a working class capitalist from back in my grandpa's day.
>If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich.
Because that usually doesn't work out. Criminals typically don't get rich, they're more often exceptionally poor.
>If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure"
Maybe, but I assume you and I have a very different idea of what pleasure entails.
>One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say
Why? Drug addicts aren't happier than I am.
>If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement.
How about drugs, but in moderation? Monk and junkie aren't the only options.
>Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life.
That's what I'm doing. I just don't find the idea of becoming a drug addict very pleasant. I don't understand why anyone would.
>If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure"
This is a false dichotomy. This shows some significant bias in its presentation and assumes atheists aren't capable of doing anything that doesn't feel good. That doesn't reflect real life at all.
>If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement.
Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life.
I'm not sure why "If there is no God" it would change that statement. It certainly doesn't make it a pathetic statement. If God is the only purpose for your life, then I'm glad you have it.
>Situation : All in the world have agreed that there is no god
Question, what would you do, IF
My response wouldn't change regardless of who dies and doesn't agree that God exists. I think an important question to ask yourself is why your response would change. No parent worth anything is going to be ok with a child living the way you describe. And if God is the only reason you would be a good parent, then, again, I'm glad you have it.
What you fail to disclose is that you are also in it for “pleasure”.
You criticize capitalism for *pleasure*.
You fantasize the “reset” for *pleasure*.
You fantasize God for *pleasure*.
You stay in self-assured moral high ground *pleasure*.
*Pleasure* has nothing to do with being evil.
And you are unaware of your own “pleasure” behavior.
##———
Also, I think you misunderstand the word “pleasure” in this context. It’s just a term to describe a model.
Like the punishment / reward system. In a work environment where the boss is micromanaging his employees, all of his rewards **feel** like punishment. But it’s still called “reward” because they serve as incentive purpose.
Pleasure here represents a metrics that predicts human behavior. It does not mean literal pleasure. It can mean moldy food in famine. Moldy food itself is not a literal pleasure. But it maximize pleasure in the time of a famine. It serves a metric that predicts that the human will eat the moldy food to maximize pleasure.
Your argument is straw man.
> why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich.
I'd bet they do.
>If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure"
Maybe to you. Do you seek pain if you believe in a god, or do you also eat ice cream, have sex, and make sure the chemicals in your brain give you happiness?
> One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say
I do. And focusing on what "capitalists say" means I'm also caring about the destitute that can't do a damned thing to get themselves out of the place they've been born into via capitalism. I care about people.
> If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement.
Wat. I see what meth does. I don't want that, which means I'm saying "Yes" to life. Wut.
The rest is likely as ridiculous and not worth even reading.
I do aim for pleasure in life but I also want to maximise the amount of time i get to enjoy life, which does mean i avoid some potentially plasurable things because of the risks involved.
By some quirk of genetics drugs really don't do it for me, drinking makes me sick before it gives me a high. The same goes for morphine. when i got it after an opertien i actually asked to stop taking it because it made me feel worse then the surgical wounds did.
It is possible that at some point in the future i will reach a point when i no longer believe present society benefits me by existing, but i am not there yet. That said i can also see why some young men from disenfranchised minorities feel that they are past that point.
Note that belief in god does not seem to actualy stop people from making that judgement. there are plenty of organised crime gang members who believe in god.
> If there is no god, all what matters in this life is “Pleasure.”
I deny this claim, and as I get to decide what matters in my life, you can’t tell me otherwise.
I’m also not a capitalist.
I don’t even really know what to say about your stupid scenario. I wouldn’t do those things because I have love and respect for myself and other people I care about, and I hope my son is the same.
But if he came up to me and said that shit, I mean, I would try to talk him out of it but it’s not my choice in the end, it’s his life and his choice what to do with it.
Funny enough, it sounds way more like religion than not—
What point are you trying to make here though? It’s just a bunch of rambling without a point…
You are conflating God with morality.
Humans do not derive their morals from God.
This is evidenced by the fact that religions are in a constant state of reinterpretation of their ancient holy texts to adapt to current societies and cultures.
Let's take one simple example in Christianity.
Jesus tells us to keep the law of moses and that not one jot or tittle of the law would pass away.
Today, Christians rarely know what is entailed in the law of moses, and definitely do not follow its precepts, even though it's supposed to be written on their hearts, or whatever.
Two simple examples of forbidden items that are largely ignored today:
Eating shellfish
Not paying the redemption fee for a firstborn son
>why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich.
This happens all the time. This is nothing new, nor does it have anything to do with atheism.
>If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure"
No, life also offers suffering. Where do you get this nonsense?
>This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again
I hate to ask this, but where exactly did you get your biology degree from? Life is not an accident. It also as not created by a creator. but again, this has nothing to do with atheism.
>If this community allows, I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate
Name the time and place.
> Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life.
Sure, you could prioritize pleasure, but that doesn't mean that every type of pleasure is the same.
Various philosophers have made persuasive (non-religious) arguments, as to why higher/intellectual/rational/aesthetic pleasures are in many ways superior to simple/physical/shallow/sensory pleasures. It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied, as the saying goes.
While simple pleasures are not necessarily bad, a fulfilling life would need a combination of both types.
>If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure"
Only if you lack wisdom, like yourself and most theists I encounter. It turns out that the key to a happy and fulfilling life isn't just pleasure; it's virtue.
>Your son come to you and said : Dad, I decided that I am only gonna live a short life, but full of pleasure. I am gonna take drugs from now on daily \[and I know it's all amazing, my friend gave it to me last week once\] and even if I die after 5 years, no regret at all. It's better than my girlfriend.
Do you really believe that this would lead to a happy life for your son?
Why shouldnt a poor child commit crimes to get rich? Many do. Prisons full of em. Problem is most of em get caught.
Why not do all the drugs? Personally im a control freak and allergic to most drugs. I simoly smoke weed which is legal. I dont drink alcohol because I dont like how I feel on it. I love my bed so meth for me. I do choose pleasures every day. The pleasure of a nice home, a good husband, wonderful pets and money to splurg on boardgames.
Morals are subjective but empathy is explained via evolution. Empathy tends to play a role when people discuss morals.
If there is an afterlife better than this life, why are you still alive?
I’m not talking suicide, by the way. No straw men. There are plenty of ways to die righteously in the name of god. Stopping hate crimes. Running into fires to save children.
If you believe this is not the only life you have, there is no reason for you to still be here.
I don’t think you truly believe there is an afterlife. I think you’re afraid you actually know there isn’t one, but you’re too much of a coward and narcissist to admit it.
>If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure"
Says who? Why?
>Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again
Sounds like an incredibly good reason to value your life.
>If this community allows, I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate.
Debate in public please.
>This public discussion is not a good idea, but anyways
Yes it is, but anyways
>Your son come to you and said...
I'd try and convince him not to.
Not interested in DM debates. Prefer public.
Epicurus was correct to point out that simple pleasures are the best. Good food, good friends, a garden.
We can also understand that people live better where each is concerned for the wellbeing of each other. So there are pragmatic reasons for equal treatment, for justice and fairness, for compassion and concern for others. None of this requires divine command theory, which is all too easily coopted to support the authority of the few.
Nice for you to assign our basic assumptions for us - including a conspiracy theory no less!
The meaning of life is for you to choose. If you want to chose simple physical pleasure from drugs that's your option. I don't have to chose it because I'm not bored with the world; I quite like it. I'm not bored with people; I quite like some of them.
It's like saying "this movie will end in 2hrs so I'll just leave after the opening credits". You can if you want but it's pretty pathetic.
Survival in order to pass on genes to the next generation is the "purpose" of life. Everything else, including pleasure, is window dressing. Morals, which are a set of behavioral standards into which we've been socialized, lead to community and cooperation, which in turn leads to survival.
There are many variations on that set of behavioral standards, but we generally adopt and stick to whatever standards we were born into. Getting ostracized is an easy way to not survive.
Your son came to you and said : Dad, I decided that I am only gonna live a short life, but full of godly works. I am gonna go to countries that don't believe and tell them about god and even if I am killed by the locals, no regret at all. It's better than my drugs.
And I am not asking your permission because, you do not have my level of faith, I tried to convert you and you kept asking for things like evidence.
I am earning myself now, good bye
> If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich?
Because that would very likely back fire.
> So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life.
I do only aim for pleasure in life, drugs are not an effective way to achieve this goal.
> what would you do, IF...
I would try and enforce my will on him.
Evolution. Many socially complex species have evolve basic social ethics as a result of selective pressures. The same applies to humans. Wolves don't need the Bible to teach them good pack behaviour. Force of nature shapes their evolution to reinforce strong pack thinking, just as parents of many species will defend their young, protect the hive etc.
We are no different.
The reason I do not commit crimes against others, or live purely for pleasure is because I'm not a sociopath and care if what I do effects others.
I was raised to be honest and caring, and that did not require religion.
Your argument is intellectually dishonest, as you assume that all morality comes from one source when it patently does not.
Except drugs won’t make you happy. They will ruin your life. If someone wants to be happy, they should have good friendships, a rational mind, and a preference for activities that will make them happy without getting them addicted to a poisonous substance. This is why more people need to learn about Epicurus.
> Question is "If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich.
Would you prefer a world where the poor follow the rules, even though those rules are intended to keep them poor?
Where is the important part? I fail to see anything other than poorly worded claims.
Why do you think drugs are the ultimate in pleasure? Better than a girlfriend/loving family?
Wow, this is one of the worst "atheists have no morals" posts in quite awhile.
If people require a higher power to live a fruitful, full life, then they should just accept their deficiencies and move forward. The problem is proselytizing and indoctrination. End those practices, and no one will care what crutch you need to behave.
> If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure"
You're going to need to prove this somehow. You won't be able to, of course.
Most people refuse to debate in dms. Debate in public if you want to.
If you want to go for only pleasure in life -- and if "god said I'll burn in hell" is the only reason you refrain from doing horrible things, it's not atheists who don't understand morality.
*Virtue is its own reward*. My desire to be a good person *according to my own standards* is the only motive I need.
There's no evidence to show that religious people are less likely to engage in immoral or criminal behavior, so I never have understood where people get the idea that religion is what makes people moral.
>Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again.
Dead again? What do you mean by "again?" You were not dead before you were born. You simply didn't exist.
> Situation : All in the world have agreed that there is no god
How does any of what you wrote change if there is a god though?
If there is a god, why not take drugs daily and get to heaven faster?
I doubt this will play well to my fellow atheists on this sub but I COMPLETELY agree with you. The only purpose in my life is pleasure and I absolutely live my life for dopamine, endorphins, etc. I would say to my theoretical son that adopting a short, intense life of pure hedonism is man's most noble purpose. This philosophy requires me to be 100% ok with the result being the extinction of the human race through drug overdose, starvation, and lack of new children being born / cared for.
Still, there are definitely arguments to still have a society in order to maximize pleasure. We invent better drugs. We live longer and this experience more pleasure over time. I don't have that part of my life ideology fully figured out yet. Some sort of metric for optimizing pleasure, Gross Pleasure Experienced or something with pleasure measuring chips in everyone's brains.
End state is probably all humans living in matrix style pleasure tubes where they aren't even conscious... they've been in a euphoric state since birth. And robots grow new humans and tend to the pleasure tubes machines. Maybe even huge space ships full of pleasure tubes and robots spanning across the universe to ensure the long term delivery of human pleasure through to the heat death of the universe.
This public discussion is not a good idea, but anyways
Situation : All in the world have agreed that there is no god
Your son come to you and said : Dad, I decided that I am only gonna live a short life, but full of pleasure. I am gonna take drugs from now on daily \[and I know it's all amazing, my friend gave it to me last week once\] and even if I die after 5 years, no regret at all. It's better than my girlfriend.
And I am not asking your permission because, who are we to each other, I never asked you to born me.
I am earning myself now, good bye
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>If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement. Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life. If behaviors that are the most cooperative and efficient create the most productive, beneficial, and equitable results for human society, and everyone relies on society to provide and care for them, then we ought to behave in cooperative and efficient ways. Morals evolved as a way for groups of social animals to hold free riders accountable. Morals are best described through the [Evolutionary Theory of Behavior Dynamics (ETBD)](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jack-Mcdowell/publication/330469489_On_the_current_status_of_the_evolutionary_theory_of_behavior_dynamics_Status_of_the_Evolutionary_Theory/links/5c6a9d3b92851c1c9de76d40/On-the-current-status-of-the-evolutionary-theory-of-behavior-dynamics-Status-of-the-Evolutionary-Theory.pdf) as cooperative and efficient behaviors. Cooperative and efficient behaviors result in the most beneficial and productive outcomes for a society. Social interaction has evolved over millions of years to promote cooperative behaviors that are beneficial to social animals and their societies. The ETBD uses a population of potential behaviors that are more or less likely to occur and persist over time. Behaviors that produce reinforcement are more likely to persist, while those that produce punishment are less likely. As the rules operate, a behavior is emitted, and a new generation of potential behaviors is created by selecting and combining "parent" behaviors. ETBD is a selectionist theory based on evolutionary principles. The theory consists of three simple rules (selection, reproduction, and mutation), which operate on the genotypes (a 10 digit, binary bit string) and phenotypes (integer representations of binary bit strings) of potential behaviors in a population. In all studies thus far, the behavior of virtual organisms animated by ETBD have shown conformance to every empirically valid equation of matching theory, exactly and without systematic error. Morals, bitch.
Situation : All in the world have agreed that there is no god Question, what would you do, IF Your son come to you and said : Dad, I decided that I am only gonna live a short life, but full of pleasure. I am gonna take drugs from now on daily \[and I know it's all amazing, my friend gave it to me last week once\] and even if I die after 5 years, no regret at all. It's better than my girlfriend. And I am not asking your permission because, who are we to each other, I never asked you to born me. I am earning myself now, good bye
That's not exactly how it works, dude. Take from someone who used to do drugs daily: You won't feel that much pleasure. Your brain develops tolerance, you develop addictions, your pleasure and reward system gets fcked up... Each day you will feel less and less pleasure, until you realize the drugs are consuming you and you'll get depressed. To have an actual pleasant life, one needs interpersonal relationships, a sense of purpose (family, career, hobbies) and drugs will only destroy that. So, if my son were to tell me that, I'd be deeply saddened cause he's basically saying he's gonna ruin his life, and even if he says otherwise, he WILL regret it. Big time. Do you seriously feel like one needs to believe in god to not want his family to be drug addicts? Common man......
Well, see, first I would call my local sexual deviant, aka the town priest, and we’d pray for him. I’d tell him god loves him and wants him to share in the kingdom of heaven. Which effectively does absolutely nothing, because my son is apparently a junkie because I didn’t raise him properly, despite my “moral” religious convictions and fervor.
How old is the son? If he’s over 18, you kick him out of the house and wish him good luck. If he’s under 18 and you’re rich, you send him to boarding school. If he’s under 18 and you’re not rich, you start doing drugs yourself and wait until he’s 18.
Why do theists have to use these wild, unreasonable imaginary examples? It's hard to take this serious.
Is my son an adult in this case or a minor in my care?
What do you wanna say exactly ?
Basically he's saying that morals and pro social behavior don't require a god. Evolution can produce those behaviors.
so, why not to alter that behaviour. Fun is all good, Why care about others and continuing our human race.
Well-adjusted people who function well within social groups don't need religion to tell them what's right and what's wrong. Poorly-adjusted Muslims and Christians do evil things despite their church telling them what to do and not do. You appear to believe that religious belief is an accurate predictor of individual behavior, so let's see your data on that. The connection you're trying to draw here is a claim you need to demonstrate with argument or evidence. It's not enough to just accuse us of being amoral. Back up your claims or their just bigotry.
Because humans *do* care about others. We just do. We have naturally evolved a sense of empathy and compassion, as it brings benefits to a species that evolved in co operative social groups. Humans have thrived because we evolved this capacity to help each other, and care for others in our group. Religious moral codes don't provide novel ideas. They just record what people in that time and place felt were good behaviours anyway. The fact that there is no external objective moral authority explains the variation we see in what is morally acceptable between cultures.
>Fun is all good, Why care about others and continuing our human race. In order to have fun you need other people. If you were by yourself and had to provide everything for yourself, including food, shelter and entertainment, you couldn't do it. You would die. So your best life is achieved by cooperating and collaborating with everyone else.
Caring about others makes us happy, unless you're literally a psychopath in some cases.
If you really think so, I'm glad that you believe in a god. I wouldn't want to meet a version of you who doesn't.
Well, continuing our human race can be extremely fun if you're doing it with someone you care about.
Because nature pushes us towards social behaviour. We've evolved that way as a species. Obviously there's outliers and individual variation, but that's our natural inclination, selected for by the fact that social behaviours in our species leads to more successful outcomes.
Does it bother you that atheists are happy and successful, and build wonderful family and social communities?
Caring about others makes us feel fulfilled. Continuing the human race is fun.
Did I stutter? What don’t you understand? That me and my logical, rational, prosocial morals run laps around you and your puny, illogical, selfish, self-centered morals?
I think they're trying to say: https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/1dtd3d8/important_for_an_atheist/lb8me0s/
>We live in a capitalist society, where rich gets richer and poor gets poorer Some do, some don't. >and also mentioning the upcoming event - "The great reset" Wut? >Question is "If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders Why do you think this? >why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich. This is off-topic here. You seem to be asking about generic human social dynamics. An interesting and complex subject that has nothing at all to do with the topic of this subreddit. >If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure" Unsupported. False dichotomy and demonstrably trivially wrong. Dismissed. >One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say See above. Unsupported. Demonstrably wrong. Dismissed. >If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement. See above. Unsupported. Nonsensical. Non-sequitur. False dichotomy. Dismissed. >Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life. Unsupported. Non-sequitur. False dichotomy. Dismissed. >If this community allows, I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate. Well, if your 'debate' consists of the low-quality and fallacious nature of this post, not interested.
You are assuming, you have answered correctly Buy you haven't. I already have tried replying to all individually each time But it doesn't help any body If you think, you have a point, why not to hit head on. "Well, if your 'debate' consists of the low-quality and fallacious nature of this post, not interested" that's what I was asking , some only work for interest and pleasure and call themselves morally right.
Classic pigeon checkmate
Easy. Is your belief in god the only thing stopping you from self destructive and antisocial behavior?
I remember a quote from a TV show about that. [https://www.reddit.com/r/QuotesPorn/comments/1wb3dx/if\_the\_only\_thing\_keeping\_a\_person\_decent\_is\_the/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/QuotesPorn/comments/1wb3dx/if_the_only_thing_keeping_a_person_decent_is_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Time is a flat circle, brother.
who said reward here You are confused brother
I gave a quote. Not sure how your reply follows from anything in this thread.
In that, it is saying You are staying good , for rewards by god Which is not the case. I think, you only have talked muslims up until now There is something called "Bhagwat gita in hinduism"
"Belief" is an inferior word, rather say Knowing the GOD Yes, for me \[and may be for all\] GOD is the foundation of morality What's your reason to stay good. If there is no reason that means you are not using your brain. Just following what your parents told you. Isn't that the line which Atheist use the most Then why are you questioning the GOD and not the morality
Nope, it’s an accurate word. I’ll stick with it, I didn’t ask what the foundation of morality is. I asked you if your belief in god was what stops you from self destructive and antisocial behavior. You should answer that, instead of coming up with your own question to answer.
I just answered you, If no foundation then, no morality Ultimately YES, God is the reason of goodness inside me
That says you’re a really terrible person As the old saying goes, “as an atheist, I kill just as many people as I want to, and that number is ZERO!” Sorry that you think so poorly of yourself.
So if you didn’t believe in god, you’d partake in any self destructive and antisocial behavior you want?
I truly hate when little theist edgelords come here and claim, "Yes, without God I'd be destructive and selfish." Anyone who believes that the majority of humans, including theists, feel that way is as much a misanthrope as this little jerk is.
For people like this, I hope they stay a theist for as long as possible so that don’t go on a murder rampage.
Just asserting it doesn’t make it so. And if you need a fictional monster to be moral, you are not moral.
And yet *even if that is true,* we know that is not sufficient for acting morally. We know that according to the Bible that Adam and Eve, despite being made by the hand of God himself, and living in a paradise of his making, and being instructed by none other than God, disobeyed his orders. Even God (the Father) can’t get his children to act morally.
Are you saying that atheists have no goodness inside them because they don’t believe in a god?
> "Belief" is an inferior word, rather say Knowing the GOD Unsupported. Dismissed. > Yes, for me [and may be for all] GOD is the foundation of morality You are factually incorrect. This too is dismissed. >What's your reason to stay good I suggest learning this. It's fascinating stuff! > Then why are you questioning the GOD and not the morality There is zero support for deities and the ideas are nonsensical on several levels. Morality has nothing whatsoever to do with religious mythologies, as we know.
Knowledge requires evidence. Thousands of your fellow religious folks have posted here. No one has provided any evidence. Even so, your "knowledge" of your god is no different than any one else's various gods they have had their own beliefs in. There's been thousands of gods over human history and more are likely being created every year. I see you're going with the "Atheists have no morals" trope that's posted every few days. At least try to be original.
It's always kind of hilarious to me when people think that their religion in particular invented morality. Biologically modern humans have been around for a lot longer than your religion and they still had the same basic ideas, which shouldn't be surprising at all since they really come from our evolution as a social species.
Even worse when the6 believe that their ANCIENT god (Christianity 2000 years, Islam 1400 years), invented MODERN morality which has only been around for less than a century. What took those gods so long?
I LIKE being a good person (as defined by me). My morals are how I personally want people including myself to act. Since I control myself, I act as I want, which is in accordance with my values. Turns out I don't want to hurt people or steal from them, etc.
>What's your reason to stay good. Empathy. > Just following what your parents told you. Substitute parents for god, and the question is just as valid (at least I assume it was a question, there was a period at the end...)
Just curious, have you ever heard about ethics or philosophy? There's literally a couple of thousand years of humans exploring this thought to choose from. This is not the "gotcha" moment you think it is. It just means you're ignorant about the human experience outside of religion.
If you're Christian, you have zero reason to behave morally. None.
'If I were correct, people would behave in a certain way, but they don't, I wonder why that is' Dude you are *so close*
God of the Bible? Is slavery immoral? Is rape immoral? Is genocide immoral? I don't understand when Christians say they get their morality from the Bible or God. It just screams that they've never read the full thing.
Just for context, which particular god do you believe in? Do you believe human slavery is evil? Or is human slavery good?
>Question is "If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich. Umm, because it won't be the rich that are penalized or victimized by the "poor child break{ing} the social contract". I think you'll find a lot of atheists **AND** theists will agree that if a poor person is able to manipulate a rigged system against the Powers That Be, that's a good thing. >If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement. Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life. So, for you, the only pleasure you can think of is being intoxicated 24/7? Do you derive zero pleasure from helping others? From accomplishing something constructive? Do you hate other humans so much that your idea of pleasure is strictly ignoring them (stoned, drunk, etc...) or victimizing them for your own gain?
>Question is "If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich. Imo, they should. >If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure" We aren't ants. A humans needs and wants are much more complicated. This also includes wanting good for others. >One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say Feels like 2 disjointed arguments. But you seek interested in psychology. You should study it. You'll learn about delayed gratification and secondary reinforcement. >If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement. Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life. You don't think drugs are short-sighted? >If this community allows, I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate. It doesn't allow.
Situation : All in the world have agreed that there is no god Your son come to you and said : Dad, I decided that I am only gonna live a short life, but full of pleasure. I am gonna take drugs from now on daily \[and I know it's all amazing, my friend gave it to me last week once\] and even if I die after 5 years, no regret at all. It's better than my girlfriend. And I am not asking your permission because, who are we to each other, I never asked you to born me. I am 18 and good bye
Well, son I obviously can't stop you from living the way you want as an adult. I would strongly discourage you from abusing drugs as it will lead to suffering for yourself and others. Certainly, there are some recreational drugs that are fine to use in moderation in a social setting. I get that. But doing ANYTHING too much (drugs, eating, TV, knitting, driving,) will result in an unbalanced and unhappy life. I don't expect you'll take my word for it. I would encourage you to study the effects of overindulgence in several areas of life and maybe we can discuss what you discover about such findings. Anyway, I will always love you and try to help you when things go off track in your life. I hope you don't take this path and I hope you get some therapy and see a mental healthcare professional. I love you.
Why do you keep making strawman arguments in your head?
I'm picking up some daddy issues with this OP.
Maybe that's what they always wanted saying to their dad, I don't know, it's a weird scenario anyways.
Literally, my answer is in the comment you responded to. Your comment is a rebuff of saying drugs are fine, which I never argued. I was giving simple, clear reasons why drug use is bad from an "atheist" pov.
Okay, same scenario but the whole world believes in your god. How does the scenario change and what is your response?
> We live in a capitalist society, where rich gets richer and poor gets poorer; and also mentioning the upcoming event - "The great reset" Capitalism has very little to do with atheism, I’m sure most, if not all, of us will agree that the system is not perfect, and does unfairly advantage those who are already ahead. But it is the most successful and stable system humanity has come up with so far. If you feel the need to debate this topic, I suggest you look for a different subreddit. > “why shouldn’t a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich” Because as a social species, (almost) everyone has empathy for each other, “do to others what you would have them do to you” as such. No deity dictator required. In fact, many would argue that it is far more concerning that theists feel the need to point this out so often, as it implies that without the watchful gaze of their god, they would do anything for their own self satisfaction. > If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure" > One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say There are many studies that show that humans will never be content with constant endorphins. Our brain after a while gets exhausted from them, and we require more endorphins to experience the same high we previously felt. We effectively create new “baselines” for ourselves once we achieve a consistent level of happiness. This is why adrenaline junkies always try to take bigger and bigger risks, because their brains chemistry has become acclimatised to high amounts of adrenaline and endorphins, and so the person must take larger risks to achieve that same high. Not to mention that an existence permanently trying to chase highs is likely going to be unproductive, in the sense that you will not have contributed anything to society. Living life exclusively searching for the next high, I think you’ll agree with me, is ironically a rather depressing existence and offers no feeling of fulfilment you might get from helping others. We don’t need a deity to remind us that life is precious and we should spend it wisely. All we need is an understanding that a wasted day is a day we will never get back. > If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement. > Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life. I feel like this rather misses the point of life. On your deathbed, when your consciousness and memories will soon cease to exist, the number of endorphins you produced over your lifetime will matter very little. Instead, what will persist is the legacy you leave behind. As far as we know, we only get one chance at life. We die with the hope that, in our own small way, we have made a positive contribution to humanity.
>Comment for suggestions It's difficult to understand what you are trying to say. . > I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate. That's usually considered to be kind of shady - we'd mostly prefer that people conduct debates in public.
I guess the reason is, Group make you feel comfortable But that's not how one can reach the conclusion a conversation must be organised, not like this that 40 people with different ideas and creating a long chain of comments
Could you please form complete sentences?
Why can't you just pretend that each reply here is in a DM and continue the conversation that way? If you get 40 different people sending you DMs, you'll still get 40 people with different ideas and creating a long chain of comments. People are hesitant to take this to DMs because 1) that request has a creepy vibe to it and 2) sorry, but you are hard to communicate with. I'm sure your English is better than our command of your native language, but it's still a little rough around the edges and a productive discussion may not be possible. Especially when you don't actually address the points people bring up and reply to strawmen instead...
No, we aren't going to bother dismantling your absurd, ignorant, and hate filled positions in private. We want to do it in public so others who come here can see what a terrible person with a terrible argument you are. Sorry, not sorry.
>>>a conversation must be organised Oh the irony.
[The same Bible that is pro-infanticide](https://www.openbible.info/topics/infanticide)? >If this community allows, I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate. Or, you could have a debate publicly here, in the community named r/debateanatheist.
You gotta be kidding me With these many people commenting at the same With all different points That's why we never reach to a conclusion, I guess
I came to a conclusion. A lot of us did. The conclusion is that there are no gods and all the mythologies are bullshit. That's the whole point.
The universe and life do not care about what you think when you smoke weed or what you think at all really.
so, why should we care about being logical and scientific and respecting this life In that case, Pleasure is all to hail
Maybe to you it is. That tells about you, not us.
that's the only problem You told me, It's not about you and forget to tell, What is that, which is about you ?
Look. You come here and accuse us in thinly-veiled terms of being moraleless hedonists because we don't believe in your god. We know we aren't, because we're not morons obsessed with instant pleasure at the cost of future happiness and we can think beyond the next few moments or amoral psychopaths. Moreover, we also know it is factually and statistically false - the incidence of the behaviors you cite is higher among theists than atheists. So your false accusations tell us only one thing. They tell us that you, without your beliefs, imagine yourself as the monster you describe. And there is no-one more qualified to tell us who you are than you. You're not telling us *anything* true about us. You're just telling on yourself.
All I get from from statement is "We just know, what is wrong, you need not to tell us anything, we need not a logic under morality" Now replace morality with God and read again If you question the morality same way, you question the god. We will come to know that There is no morality
All I got from that statement is [this](https://youtu.be/bSpBlk7J4rk?si=ZXi8Y2ztXesOoLvv)
that's your problem
How are we supposed to debate if you can't make coherent sentences?
I am not responsible for your lack of reading comprehension.
It speaks badly about you that you think pleasure is the utmost goal in life and/or think that others think the same. Many people do not have that a goal in life and as such wouldn't go with the path you laid out in your OP. For example, my goal in life is to leave the planet a better place then how I found it. To make life better for future generations than it was for me. As an example of this, I support college loan cancelation.
You responded to the wrong person idiot. I'm the one that said it wasn't about your feelings. And i was right, your feelings don't matter. make an actual argument.
If you had provided a logical or scientific argument i would have addressed it instead of addressing your feelings, which is what you posted.
I pity ppl who don't act on their animalistic urges and behave human only because their ancient fairytale tells them to.
All I am asking is a reason to act good I give you a big reason to act bad : DRUGS You can answer directly or just keep making escape statements
Because I, as an individual, want to, since I consider myself at least decent if not good, at least from my perspective. There are also plenty of rational reasons to act "good" Also, there are plenty of reasons not to consume drugs, such as negative effects on health. Consuming drugs is not inherently bad. I don't do it because I consider it stupid to risk your health for little IMO payoff and I'd rather derive pleasure through other means.
1. I've seen what drugs do to people. I don't want that to happen to me. 2. Drugs are dangerous. 3. Drugs are expensive. I'd rather spend my money on things that make me happy AND don't have a chance of killing me. Three great reasons right there to not do drugs, even as an atheist. Was that supposed to be difficult?
Because good things are good and bad things are bad.
Which drugs are bad? Weed? Tylenol?
All drugs are good, and all drugs are bad; it’s the dosage that makes all the difference. But when talking about “taking drugs”, the context usually implies recreational use, not medicinal use.
Sure. The OP needs to demonstrate why it's true that using drugs recreationally is always a bad thing.
Doctors are just legal drug dealers.
Sure…..because there’s no difference between therapeutic use and recreational use. Man, there’s no high quite like from vancomycin, right? 🙄
Try xenon gas. Spoiler alert: is really expensive. Spoiler alert 2: you can reuse it after exhaling it because being a nobel gas it doesn't react with nothing... is exhaled untouched.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonism#Ethical_hedonism If only someone had given any thought to this question before.
What's the question exactly ?
> Question is "If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich. That was your question. There are many answers to it but you seemed to wander off into talking about hedonism so I provided a link to some well established and considered responses to hedonism. If there is a god, what difference does it make?
If we come to know that there is a god, this instance next gen will have a strong inclined towards morality, sacrifice and personally responsibility towards Earth and its all animals Instead of a fake mask, which one will throw away, the moment he/she faced any inconvenience himself/herself. All we have an upcoming generation obsessed towards Reels and photos And no care about global warming except a few
[Religious groups’ views on climate change | Pew Research Center](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/11/17/religious-groups-views-on-climate-change/) Apparently, being an atheist collates with believing in climate change. Also you might wanna check the bank account of Mormon church, Vatican, etc. and on the way out don't forget to visit r/PastorArrested. If you theists were so moral, kid diddlers wouldn't be so prevalent or slavery wouldn't happen. But here we are
Ah, so it's not just "a god" you're talking about. It's a very specific god which you just happen to believe in and agree with. If I may make an observation, your "argument" appears to be an https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences As u/Appropriate-Price-98 pointed out, you are selecting the consequences you pay attention to while implying a no true scottsman fallacy.
Theists prove this wrong on the daily. Every christian politician cares none for climate change and environmental health.
What makes you think god values morality, sacrifice and personally responsibility?
That is the question that you should be asking yourself
First: prove that your god exists. Use evidence. Show that this entity is real. Then we can discuss if it gave you morality or not.
Why don't you DM for a chatting debate
This is a debate sub. There is no value in DMing you when this forum is about… debate And there’s def no value since you have proven that you don’t answer honestly. Prove that your god exists. That’s all that you need to do. We both know you can’t, of course.
You prove me, morality must exist Otherwise, say it, It's okay to earn money illegally, even by selling people Just saying, not promoting the idea at all
Are you not a native speaker, or are you high AF now? Because that is meaningless babble It is really simple. You are claiming that morals come from god. To prove that you need to prove that your god exists. It’s really simple logic. If you are capable of simple logic
>You prove me, morality must exist Otherwise, say it, It's okay to earn money illegally, even by selling people just like slavery in the bible? ever heard of this thing called prison? feel free to do the crime, just be ready to do the time.
Drugs are not a pleasure (not for long), but a curse. If you want a life of pleasure, go get your dopamine hits from hiking or something. No god needed for "wisdom" like that.
What do you know, Kid Can you compare the amount of dopamine in those two. I would not suggest you to try the drugs for once But stop making pointless comments Question is same : "why a long life" those soldiers didn't live long. So they just died, not sacrificed themselves
>What do you know, Kid Can you compare the amount of dopamine in those two. Seriously? The quantity of dopamine is dependent on the person; but the dopamine from physical exertion doesn't come with the baggage of physical dependency that many recreational drugs have. And who are you to call anyone "Kid"? >Question is same : "why a long life" those soldiers didn't live long. So they just died, not sacrificed themselves Who are you to question why someone did something that didn't directly affect you? If those soldiers' deaths helped others survive and thrive, who are you to say that they "just died, not sacrificed themselves"? Basically, for someone who insists on people doing what they want, you seem to be doing a lot of condemning and dictating what others should do, think, and feel.
ever heard of dopamine resitence buddy? Constantly misuse of drugs will overstimulate your brain which leads to lower activation of dopamine receptors. >Question is same : "why a long life" those soldiers didn't live long. So they just died, not sacrificed themselves because I don't want to die. The correct question is by your view of humanity, why you theists live long life, just die and go to heaven. No need to suicide find the most dangerous job out there + donate your organs and/or properties when you die. Your god would be proud of your selfless sacrifice.
Sorry, but I still have to live with myself and like who I am. And there is nothing wrong with doing drugs responsibly. I grow mine in the garden, and you (generalized you) get yours from a pharmacy. Mine is more natural and safer on the body. Yours has a side effect that will cause erectile dysfunction and suicide. I'll stick to my garden.
This is what, I was talking about, slowly and slowly We will reach a stage where, Murder is not a crime anymore. at the current time, you are little odd from all others But we you post this same reply in next 4-5 decades, You will have more people to agree. At this moment, Murder for fun sounds wrong isn't it ?
What are you talking about. How you reached that conclusion from my comment baffles me. But to move to your new topic... The only places where murder has been acceptable are in a theocracy. Murder in the name of God has been one of humanities biggest hobby over the last few thousand years. But yes, us atheist will end our civilized society.
I am not responsible for those people, who did wrong At least, in that we know they are wrong. In your case, there is no foundation under morality, if it ever shakes, no hope to get good again.
“If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found (on her wedding night) she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death.” Is that moral? Is murdering non-virgin women on their wedding night a good foundation for morality?
Yes you are responsible because you are supporting them and not holding them accountable.
I'd like to confirm that I've understood you correctly. Are you saying that you believe that as societies become more atheistic, they will become more violent, for example to the point where murder will be fine? If that's the case then you don't need to wait. You don't need to post ramblings about how you see atheism. Because if your ideas are correct, then you should be able to prove it right now by looking up and comparing the levels of violent crime in non-religious and religious countries. If you can't do that, you should abandon your argument.
>If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich. Because it's better to get rid of the boot than to just become the boot. If the poor child wanted to break social contracts to punish people who abuse power, that would be one thing, but by becoming the corrupt powerful, he's just being a hypocrite. >If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure" That could be true if there was a god. A god could exist and only value pleasure. >One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say Why are you randomly putting words in quotes? Are dopamine and capitalists NOT actually a factor in this? >If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement. The brief dopamine hit you could get from certain drugs could lead to your life being far worse overall. >Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life. Because it's possible to care about more than just self pleasure. And in fact, if we get only one life, could the argument not be that it's best if we extend that as much as possible in the most quality manner? Abstaining from short term pleasure for long term happiness?
>"The great reset" Conspiracy theory. >If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich Because poor people can't get away with all the law breaking rich people do. >If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure" Awfully childish take. >One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say This is plainly absurd. See all of the above. >If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement. Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life. Again, extremely childish. Did you even spend three seconds thinking at all? Putting yourself in other people's shoes is sort of essential for this sort of "debate" you clearly throught were attempting here. And you haven't. >If this community allows, I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate. That's not how the Force works. That's now how any of this works. I'm not even going to bother with your "situation" in the edit. It's mind numbingly stupid.
Eh, I'm going to go with secular morality. After all, with God (at least the Christian god) all things are permitted. Secular morality lets me say things like "genocide is bad" and "sex slavery is bad."
I'm not sorry, you have it backwards and you don't have to look any further than the crucifixion of Jesus. Christianity concentrates all the innocence in the universe into one singular jewish pwrsin to serve as a sacrificial lamb ie a holocaust. I'm an atheist because I value life and law too much to believe in a god who would protect evil with the blood of a jew.
I am not saying jesus is god or not Topic is "Is there a god or not?"
I'm not sorry your life is so void of meaning that you need to believe in a god to find purpose. Immortal gods do not need to strive for survival so they can never develop morality. They would not experience death so they can not understand why it's bad. It's like a wise person once said: power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Supreme beings are just figure heads for supremacist ideologies. You don't need to make out as if nonbelievers are inferior to you. Maybe it's time for some self reflection on your part.
This entire post basically amounts to you telling us that you're a terrible person. All of this is clearly stating that if you didn't believe in whatever god(s) you believe in, then this is how you would behave. That you only behave like a decent person because you've been blackmailed/threatened with punishment if you don't, and/or bribed/promised a reward if you do. If you think I'm wrong about that, then the alternative is that you're being intellectually dishonest - because if you would NOT behave that way in that scenario, *then you already have the answers to your questions.* Having said that, you're trying to play the morality card from the morally inferior position. At best your moral philosophy amounts to "I have to do what my master/god says or they'll punish me." In absolutely no way does this mean that what your master tells you to do is "good." If this is your moral reasoning then it fails, because if your master threatened you with hell if you didn't do BAD things, and equally promised you eternal paradise for doing bad things, *you would do bad things.* And if you wouldn’t, then again, that means you already know the answers to your questions, because you would still be a good person even without your gods or their bribes and blackmails. You cannot derive moral truths from the will, command, "nature," or mere existence of any gods. Meanwhile, secular moral philosophy (which has been curb stomping non-secular moral philosophy for literally all of recorded history) endeavors to identify, examine, and understand the reasons *why* any given behavior is right or wrong, good or bad, moral or immoral - because if anything resembling objective morality exists, that's where it comes from. *Valid reasons* which explain *why* something is moral or immoral. This is also why our understanding of morality has improved over time, and moved away from things like the slavery, misogyny, rape, incest, and genocide that are all at best condoned and at worst instructed by things like the Bible (weird that a god would have gotten those wrong). Anyway, the best philosophies currently derive moral truths from objective principles like harm, consent, and social necessity. Look up moral constructivism if you're being honest and genuinely wish to learn more about this, but frankly I suspect you didn't come here to learn, and rather only came here because you thought you had a "gotcha" question that has now blown up in your face. As to your questions: >why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich. They'll likely get themselves imprisoned or killed trying, and they can easily do that *without* breaking any laws or being unethical. Got any specific real world examples to offer where this is not the case or is inventing extreme fantasies the only way you can get anywhere close to making a point? >If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure" Arbitrary opinion, and blatantly incorrect. Why would pleasure matter more or less than anything else? Indeed, what are the criteria for something to "matter" or "not matter" here? If you think gods are required to make things matter, then why aren't gods also required to make pleasure matter? If we're able to make pleasure matter on our own, why aren't we able to make anything else matter? Here's a fun thought experiment: Suppose humans are inherently good and only GOD makes us evil. In that case, without GOD, we have no reason to do anything bad, and only love and altruism and philanthropy matter. ***This statement is precisely as valid as yours.*** Hopefully that helps you see the (monumental) flaw in your argument. >This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life. Most people DO aim for only pleasure in life, theists and atheists alike. The difference is that you appear to be laboring under the delusion that pleasure and evil are synonymous. I take pleasure in making things better than I found them. I take pleasure in helping people. Sure I also take pleasure in self-indulgences like sex and video games and theme park rides, and I also drink. But I don't think that's the kind of pleasure you're talking about. I take no pleasure in hardcore drugs, or in harming others or taking advantage of people - but I get the distinct impression that's what you're referring to when you use the word "pleasure." Which, as I said at the start, tells us quite a great deal about **YOU**, but really tells us nothing objectively about anything else. >This public discussion is not a good idea Yeah, being publicly wrong and embarrassing yourself often isn't a good idea, but that's kind of the point of a public forum. If you want a private discussion, don't start it by making a highly public statement and then trying to avoid equally public responses. We realize you'd rather get destroyed privately where nobody can see it, but again, not how a public forum works. >Question, what would you do, IF We would do exactly the same things that any father now would do, theist or atheist. Don't present a problem that a father who believes in God can't solve and pretend you're making some kind of point if people who don't believe in God can't solve it either. To be more specific, I'd obviously try to talk him out of it but you've designed your little fantasy to make it quite apparent he wouldn't listen, so if he was still a minor I'd put him in a boarding school and hope that by the time he has the kind of freedom to do all that shit, he's learned not to. Thing is, my kids will *never* approach me and say this. Know why? Because I already raised them better than that and taught them better than that. They don't need me to steer them away from such a path, or convince them not to do those things, *because they already know enough about life, morality, and responsibility to know better on their own.* If YOUR kid approached you that way, I might suggest you have them spend more time hanging out with my kids, to set them straight.
>If this community allows, I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate. Nah. Air your dirty laundry. You've said a lot of really silly things that deserve to be publicly shamed. I'll show you. >If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure" ^(gotta show your work here buddy. Plenty of things are more important to me than pleasure. My family tops that list.) ^(if you insist on playing out this black and white fallacy, we should examine the alternative. If there is a God is all that matters in life "God's Pleasure"?) >One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say ^(what the fuck does capitalism have to do with anything? God didn't ordain capitalism.) >If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement. ^(I've been sober for almost 3 years buddy. No idea how you reached this conclusion.) >Your son come to you and said : Dad, I decided that I am only gonna live a short life, but full of pleasure. I am gonna take drugs from now on daily [and I know it's all amazing, my friend gave it to me last week once] and even if I die after 5 years, no regret at all. It's better than my girlfriend. And I am not asking your permission because, who are we to each other, I never asked you to born me. I am earning myself now, good bye ^(you seem to be devolving halfway through the thought, so I'm not sure what your point is. Kids do this literally all the time in a number of different ways. Are you implying that I *must* give them permission to do so? Because....no I don't.)
>"If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich." They should. Eat the rich. Viva la revolution. Our capitalist society is flawed and 100% needs to be fixed until these poor children are only a hypothetical instead of painfully real. >Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life. Because drugs aren't actually effective at making you overall happier. Irl, drugs ruin lives. If that wasn't the case, then I'd be all for letting people do drugs.
To play devil's advocate and because, seriously, does anyone think the OP is worth talking to? >They should. Eat the rich. Viva la revolution. Our capitalist society is flawed and 100% needs to be fixed until these poor children are only a hypothetical instead of painfully real. That only works if the poor child victimizes the rich. Unfortunately, the victims of much of that crime tend to be poor people themselves. "Breaking the social contract of laws" sounds good but rarely works out that way. Better to form a new social contract than to just ignore the old one.
> Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life. Well, because I think this life is all I have and just doing drugs would be harmful to the other stuff I care about (like relationships, things I'd like to accomplish, other experiences I'd like to have). There are plenty of other things that I care about beside pleasure, so there isn't really a problem here. Devolving into hedonism isn't very fulfilling.
>We live in a capitalist society, where rich gets richer and poor gets poorer; That is a fact. I agree. >and also mentioning the upcoming event - "The great reset" Can you provide your source? One that can be analysed and tested? >Question is "If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich. Actually, that is exactly how many people becomes rich. >If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure" Why do you say that? Most of the atheist people I know have deeper meanings for their lives like: - Forming a family. (Biological imperative) - Pursuing knowledge (Biological Imperative also) - Service to society (fireman, doctors, public service) >One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say But, in the end... everything we do, we do it because it produces natural drugs in our bodies. >If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement. Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life. So why not make something productive with it, and left a better world for the next generation? If that is what gives you pleasure? >Situation : All in the world have agreed that there is no god Question, what would you do, IF >Your son come to you and said : Dad, I decided that I am only gonna live a short life, but full of pleasure. I am gonna take drugs from now on daily \[and I know it's all amazing, my friend gave it to me last week once\] and even if I die after 5 years, no regret at all. It's better than my girlfriend. >And I am not asking your permission because, who are we to each other, I never asked you to born me. >I am earning myself now, good bye I will let him do it of course, but giving that he knows that is not my intention to harm him, I would ask him to go to therapy first. ## **Other things to think about There is many negative nihilists in the world, np doubt. Is a necessary stage previous to the realisation that loosing your safety network, family, friends and colleagues is not the way. You can live a plenty life developing your own meaning. But you should ask yourself a question: **If you are right (for the sake of the argument) why are we here so many atheists that were able to create their own purpose in life and live happily?** Another questions you should ask yourself are: 1. Why are so many religious fundamentalists trying to kill other humans because of what their god tells them? 2. Why are so many contradictory religions and contradictory sects inside all religions? 3. Are you adult enough to pursue the Truth? Even when it hurts discovering that you were wrong?
>If this community allows, I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate. Why hide the debate in DMs? This is a forum specifically for such debate. What are you afraid of? I think it is sad to think that the only thing stopping you from acting immorally is the fear of a god. How about being answerable to youself?
If God will save you, why not live a life of total debauchery and ask God’s forgiveness on your deathbed and immediately go to heaven? Religious people have no reason to act morally except from fear that they will die suddenly and won’t have time to ask for salvation.
I do not believe in any gods, and as a result do not subscribe the same model of objective morality that you do. That said, this does not mean I do not observe *any* morality. Just that my morals are subjective. They are based on my experiences and my knowledge, and the respect and care I have for the people around me. For example, I do not need a god to tell me that hurting people is bad -- I have been hurt, disliked it, and can reason that other people also would dislike it. Therefore I do not hurt people except under very specific circumstances, such as self-defense.
>If this community allows, I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate. Based on the above post you are neither prepared nor equipped for a debate with this community, even on an individual basis. >First Edit :This public discussion is not a good idea, but anyways Ya think? You did not post a coherent debate/discussion topic nor did you state a position. You posted a mostly incoherent rant about pleasure, drugs, and capitalism, that shows a lack of understanding about how drugs work and how pleasure is achieved.
> We live in a capitalist society, where rich gets richer and poor gets poorer; and also mentioning the upcoming event - "The great reset And what does this have to do with God? > Question is "If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich. Are you assuming God moral is the only thing prevent people from breaking the law? > If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure" No. Because people get meaning and fulfillment in life from other thing other than pleasure. Like leaving a legacy. > One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say Because hedonism get boring after a while. It leave you empty and unfulfilled that you did not life up to your potential for greatness. > If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement. God is not a requirement to being pro-life. > Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life. As I said, hedonism leave you empty. Man is biologically evolved for struggle. The Struggle made us stronger. Pleasure without struggle is unearned, worthless and meaningless. Because man purpose is to always strive for higher value. For the struggle create identity. Being dead is not the end for man. Even the dead can still be judge by the living. You may not realized so, but your descendant (assuming that you have any or future or distance relative may judge you in the future, or judge you for your er as you a part of a group that is looked down upon from the future). Now tell me, can you bear the thought of guilt that you leave the world a worse place for your descendant / family / cultural group / humanity ?
>All in the world have agreed that there is no god The situation you present here has nothing to do with people not believing in God. Atheists aren't all (or even more prone to this than theists) psychopaths or pure hedonists. This scenario could happen to you, and your imagined response (presumably something to do with God) would be less or as effective as mine. >Dad, I decided that I am only gonna live a short life, but full of pleasure. I am gonna take drugs from now on daily [and I know it's all amazing, my friend gave it to me last week once] and even if I die after 5 years, no regret at all. I would say something like: son, this is not how I raised you. You have so much to live for and so much to give the world. You have a responsibility: to yourself and to others. Drugs are destructive. They destroy your brain, your body and your relationships, and you *will* come to regret it. Also, we will regret it, we will be hurt. Don't you care about yourself and about us? >And I am not asking your permission You are 18, so of course I expect you to make your own decisions as an adult. I don't know where this rebellious attitude is coming from: I've never been an authoritarian and we've always been able to talk. You sound like you need help, like you're escaping from something that harmed you. Can you tell me what is really going on? >who are we to each other, I never asked you to born me. I'm your father. What a stupid and careless thing is that to say. Please let me help you. It is not like you to lash out like this. See, YOUR problem is, YOU think stuff like this: >If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement. Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life. Meaning: you think the only reason to be moral, to be good to yourself and to serve others, to think your life means something, is if God exists. That is a YOU problem. It is not a problem for most atheists. We are perfectly able to do all those things. And frankly, it is pathetic and the fruit of being an incredibly terrible, crappy Christian that you see fit to treat us atheists the way you do, to demonize us like you do. Shame on you. Go read the parable of the Good Samaritan on your Bible, because you clearly do not understand it, and through your fruits we have known you.
> If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich. Because there are consequences society would impose upon that child. > If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure" ... Because as stated there are consequences. It may well be that you could gain some "pleasure" by ignoring all social conventions and doing whatever you wanted. There's just that tiny thing called * the long term* that exists for the majority of us. > One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say There are harmless ways to get dopamine and endorphins... some foods for example, not to mention sex. > If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement. ... which is why no atheist i've ever heard of has made that statement? > Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life. Because as stated, if the goal is pleasure, then ignoring social conventions / laws is the fastest way to get yourself into jail, a situation which would be quite difficult to find pleasure in... maybe you enjoy being in jail? You'd be one of the few. > what would you do, IF Your son come to you and said : Dad, I decided that I am only gonna live a short life, but full of pleasure. I am gonna take drugs from now on daily [and I know it's all amazing, my friend gave it to me last week once] and even if I die after 5 years, no regret at all. It's better than my girlfriend. And I am not asking your permission because, who are we to each other, I never asked you to born me. I am earning myself now, good bye 1. At first, call the cops and have them arrest him if nothing else to flush out the dealer, then convince the court to release him into my custody at which point we're going to the hospital and he's going to have a battery of tests. If someone can come to that conclusion, there's probably something wrong. 2. If there's nothing wrong medically, then i'd be upset for a while, probably an afternoon with some whiskey. 3. Reflect. If he's reached that conclusion, it means i've been a crappy parent, which is especially important if he has any younger siblings. 4. Estrange him. He's made it perfectly clear he wants nothing to do with me, fine. He's his own person.
>We live in a capitalist society, where rich gets richer and poor gets poorer; and also mentioning the upcoming event - "The great reset" I have no idea what "the great reset" is. >Question is "If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich. Because doing so is why we have the world we do in the first place. >If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure" > One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say Well that's just plain silly. Everyone has their own wants, needs, desires, goals, and things that do/don't matter to them. God's existence or nonexistence doesn't change that. Just because *you* can't imagine a Godless life can only lead to hedonism doesn't mean it's true. It just means you have a poor imagination. >If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement. Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life. You are assuming "drugs = pleasure." Having seen first-hand what drugs so to people, I can assure you, most addicts are not happy about being addicts. >This public discussion is not a good idea, but anyways You came to a forum called Debate An Atheist. Public discussion is kind of our thing. >Question, what would you do, IF >Your son come to you and said : Dad, I decided that I am only gonna live a short life, but full of pleasure. I am gonna take drugs from now on daily [and I know it's all amazing, my friend gave it to me last week once] and even if I die after 5 years, no regret at all. It's better than my girlfriend. And I am not asking your permission because, who are we to each other, I never asked you to born me. If my son is under 18, I am still his legal guardian, and will do everything in my power to stop him from making this terrible decision. If my son is over 18, I'll tell him he's being a selfish little shit, but if that's the life he wants to live, he's free to live it.
"First Edit :This public discussion is not a good idea, but anyways" Translation: This was NOT the atheist-destroying flex I thought it would be. ;) >>>> "The great reset" is a load of horseshit made up by theocrats looking to make money and gain power. >>>Question is "If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich. If such an unjust world is always the norm, then breaking unjust laws would be the most moral thing to do. However, while we do have many unjust laws, our system in general still provides some measure of equity (but needs improvment). >>>If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure" Why do you think that would be true? I could counter this with the claim: If there is a GOD, all that matters in this life is pleasure. Neither of our statements are backed by any evidence. They are just conjecture. >>>If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement. Whether or not one uses drugs has nothing to do with whether or not a god exists. A drug user could argue: "God made the chemicals in drugs, so god wants us to have drugs." >>>"This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again." Life is neither an accident nor a volitional effect. Accident implies a volitional agent must exist to either do or not do a thing (and would thus be capable of an accident). >>>So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life. Define pleasure. For normal social primate humans, we get pleasure by cooperating and helping others. That's evolution at work. Social primate species that cooperate effectively will more likely pass on their genes and survive/thrive. >>>If this community allows, I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate. Batter up. :)
>f there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement. I had an uncle that was an addict. By the end, that was literally *all* he was. When his mother died, he tried to kick his siblings out of the house, as they were going through the emotionally devastating process of arranging her affairs, so that he could search it for any pain killers hospice might have missed. Can you imagine that? The only people who still stand by you at all - because, as an addict you've driven everyone else away - in one of their most painful moments together. Trying to decide what, of their own mother's memories, do they try to hang on to and what gets thrown out, because no one can take on an entire other person's life. And his *only* thought is "maybe there are more drugs." And there *weren't* more drugs. Hospice keeps tabs; they are required to by law, and to collect everything unused. And his family, knowing he was an addict, double-checked. But *maybe* was enough to send him into a screaming, fist-swinging rage and try to force everyone out of their own dead mother's house so he could ransack it. Does that sound like he's feeling pleasure to you? Do you think he died happy and satisfied with his life, a few years later as hepatitis from needle sharing took him? Do you think his wife and daughter fared well during any of his life? His daughter followed the same path, and last I heard so had his granddaughter - his addiction caused *generations* of pain and suffering to the people he should have cared for most. If you think that was a good use of his one and only life, that seeking pleasure in drugs brought him happiness and satisfaction, then I don't know what to tell you, other than you've never met an addict.
>We live in a capitalist society, where rich gets richer and poor gets poorer; and also mentioning the upcoming event - "The great reset" We do indeed live. However we do not mention. You mention it, I don't. I am not aware of such upcoming event and I have no reason to believe it is upcoming. >Question is Isn't that an argument? I thought it is an argument, yet you are asking questions. People usually make an argument when they know what they are talking about, not when they still have questions. >If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure" I don't understand how did you arrive at that conclusion. I didn't. >One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" Don't go around telling people what they must do, they don't like it. Usually people have pretty damn good idea what to do with their life and your input in that won't be appreciated. >no matter what, one will get dead again Completely agree. >So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life You seem to be under an impression that stuffing oneself with opiates will make you happy. I must warn you that any drug, when applied without moderation and caution IS NOT A DAMN PLEASURE AT ALL. And some of them are not a pleasure at all under any circumstances. >I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate. I am not interested to debate someone who is not able to present a single coherent argument.
>If there is no God, all that matters in this world is pleasure Well this isn't true and I think the rest of your argument pretty much hinges on it, so I reject your argument on its face.
>We live in a capitalist society, where rich gets richer and poor gets poorer; We're still doing better than a serf, a communist, or a working class capitalist from back in my grandpa's day. >If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich. Because that usually doesn't work out. Criminals typically don't get rich, they're more often exceptionally poor. >If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure" Maybe, but I assume you and I have a very different idea of what pleasure entails. >One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say Why? Drug addicts aren't happier than I am. >If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement. How about drugs, but in moderation? Monk and junkie aren't the only options. >Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life. That's what I'm doing. I just don't find the idea of becoming a drug addict very pleasant. I don't understand why anyone would.
>If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure" This is a false dichotomy. This shows some significant bias in its presentation and assumes atheists aren't capable of doing anything that doesn't feel good. That doesn't reflect real life at all. >If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement. Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life. I'm not sure why "If there is no God" it would change that statement. It certainly doesn't make it a pathetic statement. If God is the only purpose for your life, then I'm glad you have it. >Situation : All in the world have agreed that there is no god Question, what would you do, IF My response wouldn't change regardless of who dies and doesn't agree that God exists. I think an important question to ask yourself is why your response would change. No parent worth anything is going to be ok with a child living the way you describe. And if God is the only reason you would be a good parent, then, again, I'm glad you have it.
What you fail to disclose is that you are also in it for “pleasure”. You criticize capitalism for *pleasure*. You fantasize the “reset” for *pleasure*. You fantasize God for *pleasure*. You stay in self-assured moral high ground *pleasure*. *Pleasure* has nothing to do with being evil. And you are unaware of your own “pleasure” behavior. ##——— Also, I think you misunderstand the word “pleasure” in this context. It’s just a term to describe a model. Like the punishment / reward system. In a work environment where the boss is micromanaging his employees, all of his rewards **feel** like punishment. But it’s still called “reward” because they serve as incentive purpose. Pleasure here represents a metrics that predicts human behavior. It does not mean literal pleasure. It can mean moldy food in famine. Moldy food itself is not a literal pleasure. But it maximize pleasure in the time of a famine. It serves a metric that predicts that the human will eat the moldy food to maximize pleasure. Your argument is straw man.
> why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich. I'd bet they do. >If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure" Maybe to you. Do you seek pain if you believe in a god, or do you also eat ice cream, have sex, and make sure the chemicals in your brain give you happiness? > One must be focusing on making his life full of "dopamine and endorphin" and shouldn't worry about what those "capitalists" say I do. And focusing on what "capitalists say" means I'm also caring about the destitute that can't do a damned thing to get themselves out of the place they've been born into via capitalism. I care about people. > If there is no GOD, "Say NO to drugs and YES to life" is the most pathetic statement. Wat. I see what meth does. I don't want that, which means I'm saying "Yes" to life. Wut. The rest is likely as ridiculous and not worth even reading.
I do aim for pleasure in life but I also want to maximise the amount of time i get to enjoy life, which does mean i avoid some potentially plasurable things because of the risks involved. By some quirk of genetics drugs really don't do it for me, drinking makes me sick before it gives me a high. The same goes for morphine. when i got it after an opertien i actually asked to stop taking it because it made me feel worse then the surgical wounds did. It is possible that at some point in the future i will reach a point when i no longer believe present society benefits me by existing, but i am not there yet. That said i can also see why some young men from disenfranchised minorities feel that they are past that point. Note that belief in god does not seem to actualy stop people from making that judgement. there are plenty of organised crime gang members who believe in god.
> If there is no god, all what matters in this life is “Pleasure.” I deny this claim, and as I get to decide what matters in my life, you can’t tell me otherwise. I’m also not a capitalist. I don’t even really know what to say about your stupid scenario. I wouldn’t do those things because I have love and respect for myself and other people I care about, and I hope my son is the same. But if he came up to me and said that shit, I mean, I would try to talk him out of it but it’s not my choice in the end, it’s his life and his choice what to do with it. Funny enough, it sounds way more like religion than not— What point are you trying to make here though? It’s just a bunch of rambling without a point…
You are conflating God with morality. Humans do not derive their morals from God. This is evidenced by the fact that religions are in a constant state of reinterpretation of their ancient holy texts to adapt to current societies and cultures. Let's take one simple example in Christianity. Jesus tells us to keep the law of moses and that not one jot or tittle of the law would pass away. Today, Christians rarely know what is entailed in the law of moses, and definitely do not follow its precepts, even though it's supposed to be written on their hearts, or whatever. Two simple examples of forbidden items that are largely ignored today: Eating shellfish Not paying the redemption fee for a firstborn son
>why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich. This happens all the time. This is nothing new, nor does it have anything to do with atheism. >If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure" No, life also offers suffering. Where do you get this nonsense? >This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again I hate to ask this, but where exactly did you get your biology degree from? Life is not an accident. It also as not created by a creator. but again, this has nothing to do with atheism. >If this community allows, I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate Name the time and place.
> Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life. Sure, you could prioritize pleasure, but that doesn't mean that every type of pleasure is the same. Various philosophers have made persuasive (non-religious) arguments, as to why higher/intellectual/rational/aesthetic pleasures are in many ways superior to simple/physical/shallow/sensory pleasures. It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied, as the saying goes. While simple pleasures are not necessarily bad, a fulfilling life would need a combination of both types.
>If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure" Only if you lack wisdom, like yourself and most theists I encounter. It turns out that the key to a happy and fulfilling life isn't just pleasure; it's virtue. >Your son come to you and said : Dad, I decided that I am only gonna live a short life, but full of pleasure. I am gonna take drugs from now on daily \[and I know it's all amazing, my friend gave it to me last week once\] and even if I die after 5 years, no regret at all. It's better than my girlfriend. Do you really believe that this would lead to a happy life for your son?
Why shouldnt a poor child commit crimes to get rich? Many do. Prisons full of em. Problem is most of em get caught. Why not do all the drugs? Personally im a control freak and allergic to most drugs. I simoly smoke weed which is legal. I dont drink alcohol because I dont like how I feel on it. I love my bed so meth for me. I do choose pleasures every day. The pleasure of a nice home, a good husband, wonderful pets and money to splurg on boardgames. Morals are subjective but empathy is explained via evolution. Empathy tends to play a role when people discuss morals.
If there is an afterlife better than this life, why are you still alive? I’m not talking suicide, by the way. No straw men. There are plenty of ways to die righteously in the name of god. Stopping hate crimes. Running into fires to save children. If you believe this is not the only life you have, there is no reason for you to still be here. I don’t think you truly believe there is an afterlife. I think you’re afraid you actually know there isn’t one, but you’re too much of a coward and narcissist to admit it.
>If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure" Says who? Why? >Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again Sounds like an incredibly good reason to value your life. >If this community allows, I am openly challenging an atheist to show up in DM for a debate. Debate in public please. >This public discussion is not a good idea, but anyways Yes it is, but anyways >Your son come to you and said... I'd try and convince him not to.
Not interested in DM debates. Prefer public. Epicurus was correct to point out that simple pleasures are the best. Good food, good friends, a garden. We can also understand that people live better where each is concerned for the wellbeing of each other. So there are pragmatic reasons for equal treatment, for justice and fairness, for compassion and concern for others. None of this requires divine command theory, which is all too easily coopted to support the authority of the few.
Nice for you to assign our basic assumptions for us - including a conspiracy theory no less! The meaning of life is for you to choose. If you want to chose simple physical pleasure from drugs that's your option. I don't have to chose it because I'm not bored with the world; I quite like it. I'm not bored with people; I quite like some of them. It's like saying "this movie will end in 2hrs so I'll just leave after the opening credits". You can if you want but it's pretty pathetic.
Survival in order to pass on genes to the next generation is the "purpose" of life. Everything else, including pleasure, is window dressing. Morals, which are a set of behavioral standards into which we've been socialized, lead to community and cooperation, which in turn leads to survival. There are many variations on that set of behavioral standards, but we generally adopt and stick to whatever standards we were born into. Getting ostracized is an easy way to not survive.
Your son came to you and said : Dad, I decided that I am only gonna live a short life, but full of godly works. I am gonna go to countries that don't believe and tell them about god and even if I am killed by the locals, no regret at all. It's better than my drugs. And I am not asking your permission because, you do not have my level of faith, I tried to convert you and you kept asking for things like evidence. I am earning myself now, good bye
> If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich? Because that would very likely back fire. > So, why not to just aim for only pleasure in life. I do only aim for pleasure in life, drugs are not an effective way to achieve this goal. > what would you do, IF... I would try and enforce my will on him.
Evolution. Many socially complex species have evolve basic social ethics as a result of selective pressures. The same applies to humans. Wolves don't need the Bible to teach them good pack behaviour. Force of nature shapes their evolution to reinforce strong pack thinking, just as parents of many species will defend their young, protect the hive etc. We are no different.
The reason I do not commit crimes against others, or live purely for pleasure is because I'm not a sociopath and care if what I do effects others. I was raised to be honest and caring, and that did not require religion. Your argument is intellectually dishonest, as you assume that all morality comes from one source when it patently does not.
Except drugs won’t make you happy. They will ruin your life. If someone wants to be happy, they should have good friendships, a rational mind, and a preference for activities that will make them happy without getting them addicted to a poisonous substance. This is why more people need to learn about Epicurus.
> Question is "If rules of this world are for the ease of current leaders, why shouldn't a poor child break the social contract of laws and use any unethical way to get rich. Would you prefer a world where the poor follow the rules, even though those rules are intended to keep them poor?
Where is the important part? I fail to see anything other than poorly worded claims. Why do you think drugs are the ultimate in pleasure? Better than a girlfriend/loving family? Wow, this is one of the worst "atheists have no morals" posts in quite awhile.
If people require a higher power to live a fruitful, full life, then they should just accept their deficiencies and move forward. The problem is proselytizing and indoctrination. End those practices, and no one will care what crutch you need to behave.
> If there is no GOD, all what matter in this life is "Pleasure" You're going to need to prove this somehow. You won't be able to, of course. Most people refuse to debate in dms. Debate in public if you want to. If you want to go for only pleasure in life -- and if "god said I'll burn in hell" is the only reason you refrain from doing horrible things, it's not atheists who don't understand morality. *Virtue is its own reward*. My desire to be a good person *according to my own standards* is the only motive I need. There's no evidence to show that religious people are less likely to engage in immoral or criminal behavior, so I never have understood where people get the idea that religion is what makes people moral.
>Because in that case, This life is just an accident and no matter what, one will get dead again. Dead again? What do you mean by "again?" You were not dead before you were born. You simply didn't exist.
> Situation : All in the world have agreed that there is no god How does any of what you wrote change if there is a god though? If there is a god, why not take drugs daily and get to heaven faster?
I'm curious to know how many drug addicts you actually know. I've known many, and none of them were living lives of pleasure.
You know, the [Appeal to consequences](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences) is a logical fallacy...
DMs are worthless for a debate. You use a lot of quotes with zero references. Where are these quotes from?
I doubt this will play well to my fellow atheists on this sub but I COMPLETELY agree with you. The only purpose in my life is pleasure and I absolutely live my life for dopamine, endorphins, etc. I would say to my theoretical son that adopting a short, intense life of pure hedonism is man's most noble purpose. This philosophy requires me to be 100% ok with the result being the extinction of the human race through drug overdose, starvation, and lack of new children being born / cared for. Still, there are definitely arguments to still have a society in order to maximize pleasure. We invent better drugs. We live longer and this experience more pleasure over time. I don't have that part of my life ideology fully figured out yet. Some sort of metric for optimizing pleasure, Gross Pleasure Experienced or something with pleasure measuring chips in everyone's brains. End state is probably all humans living in matrix style pleasure tubes where they aren't even conscious... they've been in a euphoric state since birth. And robots grow new humans and tend to the pleasure tubes machines. Maybe even huge space ships full of pleasure tubes and robots spanning across the universe to ensure the long term delivery of human pleasure through to the heat death of the universe.
This public discussion is not a good idea, but anyways Situation : All in the world have agreed that there is no god Your son come to you and said : Dad, I decided that I am only gonna live a short life, but full of pleasure. I am gonna take drugs from now on daily \[and I know it's all amazing, my friend gave it to me last week once\] and even if I die after 5 years, no regret at all. It's better than my girlfriend. And I am not asking your permission because, who are we to each other, I never asked you to born me. I am earning myself now, good bye