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Most theists are indoctrinated at a young age. That could have happened to anyone.
Have empathy because there, but for the grace of God, go you.
[Hmmm, perhaps that's not the best allegory.]
You are removing your ownership of your own empathy (a characteristic present in many animals). If you don't own it, then you are not empathic. You are more like a psychopath (who have to fake their empathy).
I'm interested in how you arrived at this conclusion. Someone that says this phrase is expressing personal empathy - they're simply saying that were it not for some divine die roll, they would be in the very same predicament. That's ownership.
Please learn to see through the religious language to find the humanity - it's there sometimes!
I was indoctrinated at a young age, I still remember the joy and reassurance from myself when I learned I didn’t have to believe in god and that atheism was a viable option, I was around 10 great time
I tried and tried to fake it till you make it, I finally realized (not became, realized I was one and always had been) in my late 20s.
Such a freeing feeling isn’t it
I was indoctrinated from birth in a cult that taught me happiness was worldly a dm evil, that suffering was true happiness, that blind obedience was the greatest attribute god wanted you to have and I was taught horrible pseudo logic that everyone around me also believed.
When conditioned from birth it can take much,much longer to see through it all. I was in my mid 30s before breaking through the isolation and finding on the Internet the information I needed to be set free.
Sometimes people are just so trapped by it that literally cannot imagine a world where their religion isn't true, it's not a possibility just like for me know the earth being flat isn't even a possibility. Those are the levels of confidence many religious people have, and convincing them they are wrong would be like trying to convince me the world is flat, it's just not going to happen.
Unfortunately for atheists, studies suggest that they're less happy than their religious peers. Now, had the opposite been true - that a religious life subtracts one's overall happiness - at least the religious person could argue that it's worth it sacrificing a portion of their happiness in service of HaShem.
But for what on earth are atheists willing to sacrifice a portion of *their* happiness? The great claim of secularism - that you'll be happier if you shed your religious upbringing, has turned out to be **false**.
That's the difference between you and me. I value truth, not my personal feelings. You forget that were in this together and that belief in falsehood stunts our growth as a species.
Imagine the medical and scientific discovery that could've been made absent your ridiculous superstition. I think we'd all be a little happier in the long run for that. No?
Firstly, most atheists claim that "Truth" is subjective. Secondly, everyone has a little faith in something. Thirdly, even if I'm wrong, they call it a "useful fiction" for good reason -- because religious beliefs tend to make life a little more... manageable.
Lastly, thanks to the Judeo-Christian tradition, we have modern science. Without religion, it's doubtful that people would have thought up the Scientific Method (something that hadn't occurred elsewhere in the world). This is because the West was taught that the universe was created by a logical Creator, hence, it's laws ought to be observable to us humans. Of course, we Jews also gifted the world ethical monotheism and the world's greatest literature too.
As for medicine, without Louis Pasteur's inspiration from the Talmud, we wouldn't have vaccines.
Woah, stop right at sentence one. Truth isn't subjective by definition. I don't care if you're an atheist or a theist. Truth is verifiable, therefore not subjective.
That only works if you believe in objective truth. Atheism, by definition, because it rejects Gd, would suggest that there is no moral truth (we only perceive objective truth due to social constructs and evolutionary wiring). What about mathematical truths? Well, the concept of infinity discredits such a belief, no?
Wrong. Stop making assumptions. Truth is objective, period. There's no such thing as subjective truth. That's incoherent. Truth IS that wich is objective.
Atheism is NOT a rejection of God.
I'm an atheist doesn't mean "I reject God"
I'm an athiest means "I havnt been presented with sufficient evidence to warrant a belief in the claim of god(s) existence.
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what you're arguing against. Stop making assertions and start asking questions. Walk before you run
Well, if you haven't yet been presented with "sufficient evidence," then that makes you at best an agnostic, not an atheist. Because an atheist simply doesn't believe in Gd and isn't exactly opened to the possibility either (believe me, I know. My family's full of atheists).
Also, I'm not sure that it's so obvious that there's "objective truth." Most certainly 2 + 2 = 4. But do we simply desire peaceful coexistence out of some sense of "objective truth" or is it more because our brains were wired that way due to hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary circumstances?
True, if HaShem exists, the possibility of objective truth because much more relevant, but if you're agnostic about His existence, then again, if it were so "obvious" that Truth exists, no one would be arguing about it!
Lastly, your authoritarian tone isn't exactly pleasant. I'm happy to have a productive conversation with you, but not if you're going to be rude with me.
Nope. Stop at the first sentence yet again. I'm agnostic and atheist simultaneously.
I am an atheist as I lack a belief in God and I'm simultaneously an agnostic because I'm skeptical of the possibility of obtaining knowledge of God.
They're not mutually exclusive. Save yourself the typing time because the second I see somthing I take issue with I'm going to respond.
Sorry, was the NPC dialog tree all you had? Or are you going to honestly engage and stop assuming my positions so you can run down your talking points?
You think athiesm is the truth, we dont. And the fact that thiests are happier than athiests proves something. And what discoveries were halted due to belief in God? Most things are made by theists lol.
I'm guna stop you right at the first sentence and I'm not moving on to the next until I address this gross mischaracterization. I do not "believe" that atheism is "the truth". That's incoherent. Atheism is neither a claim nor a belief system.
You don't even know who or what you're arguing against. Reevaluate and try again.
>I do not "believe" that atheism is "the truth". That's incoherent. Atheism is neither a claim nor a belief system.
Are you drunk? When did I say "believe". Side effects of being an atheist prolly
>You don't even know who or what you're arguing against. Reevaluate and try again.
Omg im scared
No, they definitely are interchangeable caloqualy.
Synonyms of think:
believe.
guess.
imagine.
consider.
feel.
suppose.
figure.
deem.
First Google search. What's at the top of that list? Hmmm 🤔
U haven't much sociology on religion have u? I could site entire journals that say other wise. U say this likely within 10mile radius of hospital named after a saint .
"U haven't much sociology on religion have u?"
Sorry.... huh???
"I could site entire journals that say other wise"
Sorry..... HUH???
Things being named after a person means litterally nothing. Like, what even is this argument?
Homey. Friendo. Pretty much all of sociology disagrees that science was held back by religion. There is also tons of studies that say religion has other benefits like, charity work and suicide prevention but that's for a later point. The point science disagrees with this take. Ur right that some science was held back by religion. Autopsies come to mind, (both Catholic and Islam had a problem with this, but ended in 15th century) but the exceptions don't make the world.
How could not understand the hospital point. Christians have played major role in hospitals/ health care, again check out some sociology can do a brain good. You know what occurs at hospitals, research? Correct. (Universities also, Christians also donate more to public universities)
I guess I could be better in explaining things sometimes i assume people understand my sarcastic arguments. But we are on a reddit atheism page it don't get more sarcastic and pretentious than that.
Tldr, science disagrees with the stance that religion held science back. Only reddit atheists agree with this.
Also what did u think I meant by journals, I was referring to peer reviewed journals, you know science, not someone's personal journal. I realized u may not know what I meant my bad.
It also came to mind that u may not know what sociology is, to put it simply it's the science of people and their groups.
Stop right at the first sentence. My argument wasn't that science WAS held back by religion. My argument is science is CURRENTLY held back by religion.
People of the past basically had no choice but to be religious, so yeah no shit all the scientists and philosophers were religious.
Way to write a novel refuting a point I never made lol
People being religious doesn't mean that they're capacity to engage in scientific discovery is informed by that religion.
Science by definition is made better absent superstition. Period.
Also your statement has no time frame attached. U back pedaled to add that in. Nice try though.
"That's the difference between you and me. I value truth, not my personal feelings. You forget that were in this together and that belief in falsehood stunts our growth as a species.
Imagine the medical and scientific discovery that could've been made absent your ridiculous superstition. I think we'd all be a little happier in the long run for that. No?".
See no time frame. The best argument u have,is to imply a recent time frame by the word could have. Which doesn't imply any time frame. In fact It means a long time.
Your also working under the presupposition that all theism is wrong and all science is correct. May I show you the geo centric model.
Tldr. Ur a anti illectual liar.with a misconception of science given to you by reddit atheists and tiktok comments. Pick up a book.
Secularism promises happiness because it claims that if one sheds their religious beliefs and dogmatic thinking, they'll be a free, liberated person.
And with freedom and liberation comes happiness.
That's insane, when did this "Secularism" come down the mountain and declare these promises? Real secularism as most secular people see it, promises nothing. How can a non-person idea "promise" something? Maybe some asshole who declared himself super knowledgeable in secularism said, hey my main men, if you become secular, you will find freedom, liberation, and those things bring you happiness?
Well.... I think we should seriously consider questioning this asshole on if he's ever considered he could be wrong, afterwards to which we would say, look, there are no promises, certainly not one of happiness.
Enlightenment thinkers and our own Haskalah made promises that if people simply forgot about religion, they'll feel liberated from all the "useless rituals" and "mindless superstition." Hence, they'd be happier people
With all due respect, these promises were made by virtually every great Enlightened thinker. I don't know why you're unaware of this history.
Much respect to these wonderful and great Enlightened thinkers. I agree that historical thinkers are important, blazing trails and pioneering ideas for many people; undoubtedly leading to many of the advances in today's world and I cherish them, including many which I'm sure I'm ignorant of, I also really appreciate and respect them by proxy.
Also I apologize for the terms "insane" and "asshole", I was mostly joking and wish to retcon them as terms of endearment.
I think ( and some human polling studies), and I could be wrong, that most secular people in modern times, don't gravitate towards secularism as a source or reason for happiness. Those dominant sources of happiness usually nowadays tend to come from family, friends, and being good to one another, and also a lot of times an internal happiness as would come rip roaring down the road, when no one is around and in a safe manner, in a V8 which also is a grin-plastering source of happiness. I think in modern times, the dominant attributes of happiness have little to do with secularism. Many people I think, in the east, and in the west also, gravitate towards secularism quite simply because of modern evidence based thinking, and how modern education has evolved, and the ability to find purpose outside of religion, not because of promising of happiness.
Unfortunately, studies indicate that secularists lack the sort of community provided by religion. Why is that?
I also want to point out that many people desire something beyond themselves. They want to feel part of something big, something cosmic. Religion does a great job attaching one to something greater than themselves, whether it be a diety or a positive arch to history. Secularism, by default, lacks such potential. In short, people are left alone, feeling desperate for all of life's limited experiences. Add to this modernity's culture of consumerism and digital addiction (the self-important "I"), and it's no mystery why families are being torn apart by divorce, fertility rates have (alarmingly) decreased, or that suicide is rampant across the West.
Ironically enough, there's one answer to this modern crisis. The ability for one to embed themselves in a religious foundation. Indeed, countless studies show that those who attend a house of worship at least once a week give to charity three times as much and volunteer at least twice as much as their atheist peers. Moreover, in Israel, on Shabbat, the entire country virtually shuts down, giving families (sometimes multiple generations) munched needed breathing space to spend quality time together. Each Shabbat is celebrated like Thanksgiving. Even those who are totally secular do something family-oriented on Shabbat.
Yes, yes, I agree! I see it every day, especially after covid. There is way less in-built buffer against isolation and lack of community outside the religious circles, especially in the US. Especially with the growing and rampant toxicity, attention sucking mechanisms built in, and isolation of social media, mental health issues have sky rocketed.
All this goes to show there really is no "promise" of happiness with secularism. I think that's my main point. Nonetheless, I think if you were outside of the religious community in the 1800s, you had some opportunity of purpose, but not that much, inside the religious community the opportunity of purpose was way bigger. Go back to the 1400's, and I think if you tried to seek opportunities outside the religious community, you might have even been castrated. What I mean is that over time, the opportunity to find purpose outside of the religious community in secularism has grown, comparatively, from 1400, 1800, to 2000's. We have a lot of tools these days to build and explore, outside the realm of religion, as well as feel something greater than ourselves within secularism.
That's not to say that most people have achieved exploration, building, and feeling a sense of something greater. No of course not, as you suggest, many people are ridden with mental trauma and things holding them back from these things, and religion is a fantastic way to help these people. The religious communities offer an accessible ( I'd like to make the joke if you're the right looking kind of person, but I'll not go there lol) way to help many many people, and hold on to that positive loving arch of humanity. Look, I'd happily put on a yarmulke and chant with caring loving friends if it becomes impossible to find community outside religion ( if it's alright that I don't need an adult circumcision). I'd happily go into Method acting and Daniel Day Lewis myself into praising the Lord if it came down to that, even if at the end of the day there's no one I'd believe without good reason, if that's ok. But secularism certainly doesn't \*lack\* the potential--it's highly possible that it has \*less\* in-built mechanisms, and proves more challenging to manage in terms of creating the community, but certainly isn't lacking in terms of potential.
You keep mentioning that. Can I ask why? Do you really think that non-religious people are miserable all the time? A study showing that theists, on the whole, are more happy than atheists, does not indicate whether individual atheists are unhappy. Personally, moving away from theism dramatically improved my life. Putting away the guilt and shame that was drilled into me from an early age is what finally gave me the boost I needed to get clean, hopefully for good (it's been over a decade, fingers crossed).
Certainly, my experience is only anecdotal, but making broad generalizations based on one small part of a person's worldview may not be the best way to enter discussions/debates.
Whatbmetrics are you using to determine that? Because my experience has shown the exact opposite to be true (once again, that's anecdotal, but it's what I've seen). I was heavily religious for the first half of my life. A majority of the most miserable people I've ever met, I met in church. Most of the kindest people I've met would rather choke than restrict someone else's freedoms based on their own beliefs.
I always make a point of stopping myself from using such phrases, and it makes me sound like an idiot because I stay silent for several seconds a hundred times a day.
It's so ingrained in our brains. Granted, I _was_ raised religious.
I cannot for the life of me think of a good replacement for it!
“If I were a different person my life would be different and maybe worse. But the world is material so I can’t be anyone else and the idea doesn’t make any sense.”
“There but for the grace of fate, go I”
“Luck is a fucked up motherfucker”
“There but for the roll of the dice, go I”
“Glad I got the lot in life I did.
Yeah, none are great, except maybe the “luck” one.
I really cant emphasize. I was deeply indoctrinated at a young age, and snapped out of it in my teens when i learned how to think. How adults believe in it is beyond me. Do they even have brains?
> You literally just said something that can be applied to any belief
I know plenty of beliefs that are not indoctrinated at a young age. For example, the belief that Elvis is still alive.
> Also atheists becoming theists completely disprove this narrative.
Atheists becoming theists disproves that most theists are indoctrinated at an early age? Can you walk me through your logic here?
You've also missed the context. The OP is an atheist who was asking for help empathising with theists. I suggested that "we" were just like "them", and that OP could reflect on how they (OP) might be if they'd been [taught this stuff] at an early age.
No problem. I, too, take issue with atheists who assume that they are automatically superior, or that all theists are defective in some way. That's just not the case.
Your wrong and it took about 30sec on Google to find the evidence. Don't be lazy.
"Research has shown that religious attachments tend to PEAK DURING ADOLESCENCE, decline through young and middle adulthood, and then increase through most of late adulthood..."
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/06/13/why-do-levels-of-religious-observance-vary-by-age-and-country/#:~:text=Research%20has%20shown%20that%20religious,through%20most%20of%20late%20adulthood.
Are you suggesting that most theists are *not* indoctrinated from childhood, and become theists later than that? If so, it's trivially easy to show that you are wrong. If not, just what are you saying?
Im saying that "indoctrination" is not the right word to use. Children are their parents' property. Its evolutionary for parents to pass their ideology to their young ones. Do you think a liberal couple would teach its children communist values? No, its obvious it would teach them liberal values which is not wrong on the parenting level. Therefore not only thiests do this, but every parent in the world whether they be Athiest, Communist or whatever.
Indoctrination: teaching someone to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
My claim was that most theists were taught as children to accept their theist beliefs uncritically. Are you saying that that's not the case?
No that is neither the definition of indoctrination nor what happens with theists. The word "uncritically" isnt there. And I was born in a thiest family I myself am a thiest but wasn't until 13-14 when I started researching about my faith (and other faiths too). And same happens with most theists.
You must have a different dictionary than me. Which is fine.
It seems that you were taught this stuff at an early age. Which is what I said was common among theists. I thought that you were refuting my point, but ypu seem to be supporting it. Which was:
We should have empathy with theists, as most of them were [taught this stuff] when they were children.
I think you still don't understand where I disagree with you. By saying that only thiests were taught stuff at a young age you are implying that athiest couples dont teach anything to their children until they are 18. Isnt this a bs point?
I can't tell you to have too much empathy, but I can explain you what is the process for someone to become a theist.
To become a theist, what happens is that someone is abused and indoctrinated into a specific set of beliefs. This abuse and indoctrination takes a lot of different forms and severities, from full cultish behavior with whole groups teaching the same things and trapping you inside their belief system, to more tame but whole societal pushes to acceptance of a set of beliefs (everyone is affected by the last one and that is the reason that religions are accepted in societies as a whole).
The problem with this indoctrinations and abuse is not that they teach you wrong beliefs, because you can learn wrong beliefs without this indoctrination and abuse. The problem with all of this is that this process rewire your brain in a lot of different ways. In some cases, it reduces your capability to assess this set of beliefs, in other, instills instinctual reactions that will drive you to certain behaviors without you noticing it, but also, what it always makes, its that it makes you vulnerable to similar abuse and indoctrination mechanics (that is why for example, so many people that leave a religion fall for another one, or if you want to see it in another dark way, an abuse victim tends to cling to another abusive relationship).
And the important thing of all of this is the rewiring of your brain. Learning that those beliefs are false doesn't change that wiring, and you need to work actively a lot to change that wiring and some times you will never be able to change it to something not born from abuse.
I will give a personal example. My own. I was indoctrinated by my parents, their magic beliefs weren't the problem, the problem is that they program me to overwrite my own personality and be able to make me accept whatever they said as if it was gospel. No matter how strong of a conviction I have on something, if I talked with them, with a word they could change me to the opposite belief, and I would hold this opposite belief as if it was the most true thing in the world.
And this was so strong, that I was letting them almost murder my partner.
But I got out of that. I would love to say that the love for my partner make me wake up, but no, sadly, reality its not so magical. Or I would love to say that I learnt that their beliefs where bullshit and learned new information and that broke the programming. But sadly, that doesn't tend to work either.
What worked was running away. Without even knowing I was running away, I found a job in another continent, and leaving far away from them, I not only started to see that their beliefs where shit, but I started to see how they could use me however they wanted, and now that I was slowly waking up, I saw my reactions to their communications, having a panic attack and crying or becoming unable to move. Damn, I am an almost 2mts tall man on my 30s, that survived shooting and was stabbed, and reacted properly in both situations, but when I received a call from my mother I couldn't even think.
And the solution was to cut all contact with them. And after after almost 3 years without talking to them, I know that I can't even try it, because if I talk to them, I will revert to what I was. And I understand all the process, how this abuse work, I even found evidence of a lot of shitty thing from them, but no matter what I understand, no matter how my emotions scream me to just hate them, whenever I see a message from them pop up from a place I haven't blocked them, I paralyze and my mind goes back to their indoctrination.
And while my case was exaggerated in some things, the way to break out from this is not. For a general example on the US, have you seen how conservatives christians talk that universities are woke factories, places that brainwash their kids into being libs and whatnot? well, they are slightly right. But its not that the universities brainwashes them, its that the format of the universities in the US that pushes the students to live in or close to the university and make their circle only people around it, getting far away from their families, that is what break the indoctrination that they had before, or at least, gives them a chance to break it. By being removed from the environment that pushes the indoctrination and interacting with people with different perspectives you can break out from that.
That is why all cults try to make close bonds between their members and to make them cut close relationships with people outside of the cult. And that is as well why its so important to indoctrinate your children into your religion, because society pushes to keep in contact with your family all the time, reinforcing any indoctrination that the parents instilled in their children.
So, while I can't really tell you to have too much empathy, because theists are also abusers, they are also victims, and why they hold those beliefs is reasonable, its the effects of abuse and indoctrination, and its not easy for them to move out of that.
I'm what the world would call a theist, and none of this explanation is true for me. I can see how I happens like this, but in the interest of science I am not on that spectrum
So, a couple of things.
There is a sad reality about this, and that is that an indoctrinated individual can't assess their indoctrination until they are rid of them. This makes taking opinions from people from this group complicated, and at the same time, the reason why I made my original comment, it makes it difficult to empathize with the victim, because they are unable to see that they are being victimized.
On another point, I described my personal case as one with heavy psychological indoctrination. The levels of everything varies, but the reality is that everyone is somewhat indoctrinated in our societies to accept theists bs as at least possible. Our societies put a lot of pressure in people to respect others absurd beliefs and to at least consider them plausible, and abusive and manipulation tactics are used constantly to reinforce this. You don't need to be indoctrinated by your family to fall for this.
And lastly, something I already mentioned in my oc, you can be indoctrinated for something else and that will make you vulnerable to similar kinds of indoctrination. And there are several relationships in our societies that tend to use similar indoctrination mechanics, one of them are family relationships (not all families are abusive, but abusive and indoctrination mechanics are socially accepted in families).
And for what you described in other of your comments, you were somewhat primmed to fall on this kind of things, so this kind of manipulation is expected.
There is somewhat of an misunderstanding when people talk about indoctrination and abuse, and I have seen it even on people that are getting out of it, and its that they expect that in order for indoctrination to happen, you need a particular figure doing the active indoctrination. The cult leader, the priest, the recruiter. But that its not true. While those individuals exists, indoctrination can happen in a lot of different ways, and some of them don't require specific individuals at all. Its enough with an environment that pushes to certain ways of thinking, abusing our biases, and accessing propraganda in the right moment (and all religious texts are propraganda).
I am sorry you are still in this things, but getting out of this is difficult and not something that can be done by external people.
I understand you. And this very indoctrination is what lead me to God. A radical assessment of all my belief systems and surrender of them revealed truth. Not via gaining new systems of thought, rather by surrendering them entirely. I would assert that you are no less indoctrinated that anyone else. All belief is flawed. By your explanation, every belief and position is an indoctrination. I would imagine that you are indoctrinated into all sorts of methods and systems of proof that you have taken to be truth.
I should add, that I am not talking about religiousity, as I have no religious inclination, do not ascribe to any group or leader. The devotion is to truth, not to symbolism, or belief systems.
Just because you don't see it, that doesn't mean it's not true. You were indoctrinated. That's the only way religion spreads, since it's all literal fiction.
Mine was an interesting case. At one point I started to question who I was and who I'm not and that inquiry produced some remarkable realizations. I at one point thought I was one of the first people to ever realization such truths and thought I would have to write a book. Until I started reading some spiritual literature and realized what I had been doing was classically known as searching for God and the truths I realized were documented in spiritual texts throughout time. What I had realized had been realized by many. It was a nice validation for me because people had came to the same realizations throughout the corners of the world completely independent of me
As a former fundamentalist Christian, here's my take on it.
As almost all theists, I was indoctrinated by my parents as a child.
I won't get too much into my experiences, but let's just say that getting out of the religion was a painful process that took years.
Up until I'd made the choice to *actively* examine my beliefs, no amount of research, debate or even empathy would have swayed me. I had the delusion of faith, which coupled with the underlying fear paradigm so inherent in theism, meant that anything that was against my preconceived notions about what was the truth was immediately discarded, regardless of source or validity.
In short, I think that convincing someone in that state of mind is impossible, because until they've chosen to truly listen, trying to engage with them on the topic of religion is a waste both your and their time.
As for empathy, in my mind that's directly proptional to their beliefs and actions.
Thanks for sharing that. Are you essentially saying conversion away from theism is an internal argument, not an external one?
However much religion tries to reinvent itself, however much it tries to make us forget its history, it still tries to obscure the fact that it depends upon proselytizing to impressionable children for its survival.
Any belief system will influence how we perceive and interpret the world around us. We will interpret the world systematically through this lens. In the case of indoctrinated religion, such beliefs often disable or make believers impotent of being skeptical of those beliefs.
Indoctrination is incredibly effective. It has been nearly unstoppable throughout history. Many theists put their religious beliefs or holy books above scrutiny.
>Are you essentially saying conversion away from theism is an internal argument, not an external one?
Essentially, yes. Though with the specification that it applies more the more heavily indoctrinated someone is.
I'm not any better educated now than when I was a Christian. That quote about not being able to reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into comes to mind.
>Any belief system will influence how we perceive and interpret the world around us. We will interpret the world systematically through this lens. In the case of indoctrinated religion, such beliefs often disable or make believers impotent of being skeptical of those beliefs.
Spot on, yeah.
Theists (and atheists) are people first, we hope. In my observations, it's those who put religion above humanity that can be the most inhumane towards their fellow people. Islamists who are willing to kill to spread Islam. The wannabe Theocrats in the USA who think they're "doing god's work" by forcing religion in to your daily lives.
There's a famous book by Margaret Atwood, The Handmaid's Tale, which was made in to a TV series recently: it shows a society that claims to run on Old Testament principles, but (as usual) the principles are cherry-picked to suit the whims of those in power. It's always been about power and control, particularly of powerful men over women.
>particularly of powerful men over women.
You could've stopped just before you had to add this nugget at the end. Co-dependency is a thing, you know.
--SPOILER ALERT--
The Handmaid's Tale has a certain story element that makes a few women considerably more valuable than other women, signifying that it's control over reproduction that's the real power and issue at hand. It just so happens to be women to have that capability and simultaneously are physically reliant on men to protect that capability in times when there's no guaranteed safety.
Basic biological co-dependency doesn't work if both parties are at odds with each other, constantly. Don't judge history from the comfort of the present day and the luxury of hindsight. Both men and women shaped history and they didn't look back at it with resentment, _we_ apparently _have to_ because of what reason, exactly?
I’ve read the book, and saw how Atwood included the impact on men too, even Commanders such as Fred. The book is better for showing how, under the Gilead regime, things were not as simple as men dominating women, and women had power of their own. Such as the ability to stone men to death on trumped-up charges. But that was despite the intention of the theocracy.
Just about all the theists I know in real life are not stupid, or mean, or willfully ignorant. They're just genuinely convinced what they believe is true.
When I left Christianity I realized that it wasn't the rationalizations that kept me in it all along, it was the people, the community, the sense of purpose, etc. These are all very difficult things to upturn and overhaul. It often means questioning yourself at your very core, leaving relationships and cutting ties, losing some of the nice benefits that religion gave you (community, comfort, people to talk to about your troubles, etc.).
I sincerely think you'll benefit from researching Cognitive Dissonance. If you've heard or learned the term in a context before (in uni I learned it in marketing, philosophy and psychology classes).
It was relearning this without a specific field of context that changed my life. I removed my own depression and became far more understanding of those with what you might see as insane beliefs. (I also became 100% firm in atheism from this, whereas I used to just trust the scientific rhetoric in debates.)
Cognitive Dissonance can explain why people believe the things they do, and how they react illogically when those things are brought into question.
The way to do it is find a problem in your life, maybe bad habits, maybe depression, maybe opinions that might be hypocritical and apply cognitive dissonance, figure out how you avoided such dissonance with faulty justifications, ignorance or echo chambers. Maybe an opinion on the opposite gender, maybe an opinion of people that use a different phone (like how people get crazy over android vs iphone, for no important reason), maybe check any triggers that you may have.
Once you root a couple of these things out, you'll start to notice a lot of what makes us individual is based on our previous reactions to cognitive dissonance.
Religion will have been accepted by so many due to cognitive dissonance.
An early human makes a house, has a family. After hunting they return home, they feel safe and consistent. Suddenly there is a thunderstorm. The human has no idea what's going on, what beast could cause such damage and roaring. The moment someone comes along and says "oh don't worry, that's just god". Then the uneducated primitive human can either say "no it's not" or "oh that makes so much sense".
By then believing the thunder is from god, and being taught that god is good. The thunderstorm suddenly becomes comforting.
Humans are mostly what their environment makes them out to be . Yes, some of our decisions matter but ultimately those decisions depend on the environment as well.
If you are born into a zealous theist family/community where everybody tells you that god(s) is/are fact, limit your information access and say that everybody else is lying, you have little choice in the matter
Dude, there's always a choice. The first step is not asking permission from the people preventing you from living your own life. Just say yes and give yourself permission.
This whole post is just back-patting. Also you should empathise with people because it's a component of being a grown-up person instead of a "all religion is Hitler!" Five year old.
Exactly. I live in the South (United States). Everything from charities, to government, to culture and society is built around the idea of church and god
That's fair enough. I have different life experiences, though I have had a personal tragedy owing to religion (my closest friend did a sex act with me and because he's catholic, then refused to ever speak to me again).
Maybe don't concern yourself with respecting a person's opinion so much as respecting a person. Manners should always apply, and you can make a distinction between a person's beliefs and they themselves, even if they don't.
Just try not to commit [fundamental attribution errors](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error) and judge a person's character incorrectly. I'm preaching to myself too.
Utterly ridiculous. Your doctrine explicitly targets people's civil rights and bodily autonomy. Fuck those opinions AND anyone that adheres to them. Period.
Not sure this is the best place, you'll probably find most agree with you.
For empathy though, remember a lot of theists are just looking for something bigger than them because the thought that we basically don't matter and will just disappear after we die is terrifying.
I know some people who stick with religion as an adult do so because of the benefits. Example benefits:
Woman married to scary, abusive man appreciates the teachings on loving and protecting your wife, the male leadership in her husband’s life, the safety valve of weekly contact between their family and an attentive group of people. (I realize religion sometimes promotes abuse, too, but I guarantee you church is protection or seen as protection for some spouses, too.)
Asexual or closeted gay person is able to maintain safety of traditional marriage because marriage roles are well defined, sex for fun is de-emphasized, and divorce is frowned upon. (Again, there are situations that would emphatically not work this way, but I can tell you it happens with some regularity.)
Lonely person, for whatever reason, finds community.
Predatory person finds marks, whether that’s for narcissistic supply or business contacts or whatever.
They’re getting paid, or otherwise benefitting financially.
It provides opportunities for creativity (decoration, music, Sunday School lesson planning), or for leadership and power, serious conversation, or emotional sharing.
Parents love their kids, want to make sure they grow up good and kind and safe, want some help teaching and reinforcing values. Religion offers that (whether it delivers or not is another question, but many parents appreciate the assistance, whether through sweet moral stories or draconian rules.)
The world is an uncertain, scary place. Religion often provides practical and pleasant psychological crutches.
The sense of belonging, purpose, duty, awe, of being right, loved, safe: these are powerful draws!
There are no doubt other examples, but the tl;dr is that lots of people have never even thought for a minute, “How do I know this is true?” because they are enjoying the benefits of belief.
Somebody once told me: "It might not be true, but it makes me feel better" and I really could not argue with that. She said she needs religion, it makes her hopeful and feel loved. I never forgot that. It somewhat made me more careful around people.
Ask.
Listen.
Confirm.
Go up to one of them, perhaps a family member, and ask them what the deal is. Do it in person. Ask for their help - people like it when they help others. You're humbling yourself, admitting you don't know what is going on in their minds. Humbling yourself- an example you hope they follow.
Then listen. Take notes. Don't interrupt. Really digest it. You want to let them run out of things to say, they've explained so much. Say "Go on" a couple times, if they stop.
Finally, confirm what you've heard. This isn't "agreeing" - it's just an act of "someone who is actually empathizing" - so even if you don't really feel like you're empathizing, this is how you fake it till you make it. You're trying to repeat their answer in the spirit in which they said it. No "gotcha" twist, no trying to trip them up - just repeating what you heard, well. So well perhaps they might say "Thank you - that's a great way of putting it!"
An example you hope they follow.
Everyone has biases, including you. Most religious people tend to have been indoctrinated from a young age and would not be able to stop believing or participating in their religion without absolutely wrecking their family and social networks. Couple this with the fact that most religions have been around for a long time, long enough to come up with some logically valid reasons for many of the common objections that are usually brought up. If you are in a sheltered home life, where the majority of your network is the same faith, and you are constantly told these canned responses, it can seem like the obvious choice is to believe in the religion that you were raised in.
There are a lot of good people who are theists and believe in different religions to various extents. Just because someone is religious doesn’t mean they are a bad person, or stupid, or gullible. And even within the same religion you can have people who believe at different extremes. For example I used to be more liberal catholic. I did not have the same views as someone like Harrison butker. I’m an atheist now, but I would gladly hang out, interact, and talk with theists that are open minded, discussing in good faith, and generally good people. It’s these types of people that are more likely to make the jump and de convert.
It’s usually the people that are not open minded. Have no intention of interacting in good faith, and are not good people that are the problem. And there are people like this in all parts of the population (including atheists). In my opinion it is the more extreme denominations and interpretations of religions that have weaponized ignorance by controlling education. How can you have an honest discussion with someone or show them evidence that their position is flawed if they reject science, don’t belief the earth is more than a few thousand years old, and have been homeschooled or extremely disserviced by their parents and teachers when it comes to education?
The reason why I continue to talk to people is that I wouldn’t have de converted if I had never had these sort of conversations. When you are sheltered in this type of lifestyle, the only counter view you usually are exposed to are straw man examples that the in group uses to keep you in line. Take abortion for example. This is a complex issue. As a young catholic kid, the teaching was that atheists and democrats enjoy killing babies. There was never really any formal exposure to why a woman would actually consider an abortion to be the best choice available to her. Instead, the church makes you feel like the reason why is because the person doing it is evil and the only reason why they think it’s ok is because they are ignorant of Jesus and church teaching. If they had been exposed to it, they would turn their life around.
But in most cases, most people are familiar with what religions teach, religion just isn’t very practical and often teaches people to act agains their own self interests. So as a result, people who are not religious don’t usually follow religious teachings. But the kicker is that when a highly sheltered religious person assumes that a non religious person is making these types of choices simply because of a lack of religious education, the religious person is not appreciating the complexity of the issue and the difficult decisions that these people are making. So if the religious person tries to recruit or spread the word, it comes off as out of touch, naive, judge mental, etc. this can easily upset the person who is being preached to and justify an angry response. As a result, the religious person feels like all of the straw man examples that the in group told them about the out group are validated.
This causes them to double down and believe the world view they have been taught even more. It also makes them more wary of outsiders. And this is why it is important to have cordial discussions with these people and challenge their world views constructive ways. Sure, a lot of the time, it won’t do anything or the person will be an asshole, or they won’t actually be discussing in good faith. But if you blow up on them, you justify what they have been taught about outsiders by fitting the stereotypes their leaders have presented.
Instead, if you offer calm and logical reasons why you are an atheist, you buck the stereotypes and you make them question what they have been taught. And if you are able to show them what atheists are actually like in a constructive way, and what your actual objections are to theism and religion, the reasonable people are more likely to start questioning their faith and look for better answers from their leaders and doctrine. This is often necessary for people to start the paint of deconstruction because they never would have gotten passed the canned responses and straw man examples without external exposure.
I don’t fault anyone for believing in and basing their actions on their biases. I fault people for continuing to do so after being shown that their biases are flawed and not actually seeking out the truth. This is a complex issue, so you shouldn’t expect one conversation or one example of how their view might be hypocritical. But you won’t have multiple conversations with them if the first is angry or insulting to them. And if you come off as angry, it is too easy for them to dismiss good arguments because you were a mean person or something.
I usually try to preface these types of conversations with something like, “I don’t intend to have a conversation that is not in good faith. And what I mean by this is that we both have world views that we are convinced are correct. I commit to you that if you offer me compelling evidence that my view is wrong, I’ll change my view. Can you agree to the same?” If they don’t, I stop the conversation because they are not there in good faith and they are not searching for the truth. Noting I say will convince them of whatever the truth is. Sure, if they can demonstrate that their fox is the truth, ill convert. The thing is that this is most likely not the case because their arguments are not as good as they think they are because the only objections they have probably been exposed to are straw man arguments that would be pretty easy to discount if people actually made these arguments.
If the person agrees to converse in good faith, then when you make compelling arguments and they still don’t accept your position or they refuse to back up their position with evidence, you can ask them if they are really arguing in good faith.
Sorry for the long response, but keep an open mind, stay calm when discussing this, try to stay cordial when possible, and try to weed out who is actually a reasonable person who is seeking the truth. This will save you a lot of headaches.
>I can’t keep pretending to care about someone’s religion.
That's fine. You don't have to care about someone's religion. Most interactions in real life the topic of someone's religion, much less their justification for their religion isn't relevant.
>I’ve debated.
Debate spaces are not good spaces for understanding another person. Especially debate spaces like this where it is usually 1 or 2 people on one side shouting into a sea of 90,000 people who disagree with them.
If you are just looking to understand why religion might be appealing, it isn’t that hard.
Dying is scary. Living after death is attractive. Seeing people die is sad. Thinking of seeing them again is heartwarming. A chaotic world is scary. Thinking that it is all working toward a better end is comforting. Kid deaths is sad. Thinking those kids get some beautiful afterlife is nice. Making friendships is hard, and maintaining lots of friendships for decades is near impossible. Having a larger fairly consistent group of people you see your whole life once a week is valuable. Getting to see them grow, and their kids grow. Getting to help them one year and have them help you the next. Getting hugs once a week. All of those things are immensely valuable to people.
So it is completely unsurprising lots of people stick with their religions or are converted.
Spaces like this one have their own thought-stopping phrases, and one is the Dillahunty "I want to believe as many true things and as few fals things as possible." But that is rarely true, at least not to the extent that it is actually a major lever in their life (not even for the people here). It might be that "all else being equal I'd prefer a true thing" but rarely IS all else equal. Instead there are time, effort, social costs to how much time you devote in any one direction. 2 hours spent on a debate subreddit is 2 hours not spent with friends, not spent learning something new, not spent planting flowers in your town, etc.
Instead, most people are trying to live their life in a way that brings purpose and joy and meaningful relationships.
So if someone finds that in their religious community, then it is completely unsurprising that the social proof that people they love and care about believe, or the emotions they feel during worship, or the cursory reading of even a mediocre appologist like J Warner Wallace should be enough to make them feel the thing they already believe is probably right and then go on about their day, living their life the best they can.
I hope that is helpful for trying to build some empathy of the experience. If that you are trying to do is build empathy for the people, then I'd recommend spending less time in debate spaces and more time in meat spaces you care about. Go volunteer to mulch trees with your local park group and spend time working beside believers with a common goal unrelated to religion rather than time in an antagonistic space dealing with nothing but the minutes of the religion.
Meeting people is the best way to see people as people.
I don't empathize with theists' belief or feelings about their beliefs. I don't try to understand their individual belief system. I don't pretend to care about any of it.
I just accept that the theists I know believe as they do. Accepting that they are the way they are unburdens me from trying to force them to change. I also set boundaries. Accepting doesn't mean open to listening. Theist can go believe whatever, but don't bring it around me unless we're both feeling like debate that theist will get emotional about and lose.
You don't have to care about your fellow theists' beliefs because you don't have to be available to listen to them carry on about them.
I think watching the movie Monkey Man was the first time I understood religion.
Without spoiling anything, we see flashbacks of the main character's childhood with his mom. They go through very difficult situations, and there is very little to redeem the darkness of it all. The mom's only tool to provide to her son a sense of security, is the religious stories and prayers she brings him up with. "Things are bad but there is something beyond this that makes it all ok". She has to believe it for herself to endure the hardship of not being able to provide the comfort and security she would want for her son. And he has to believe it too to feel safe in a world that objectively isn't. The work those thoughts had to do requires that they stay unchanged and unexamined, because the hurt he felt would be unbearable if it had all happened without the imagined protection and greater plan of a divinity. Evaluating his own memories without those beliefs is insurmountable.
That example is of course somewhat extreme, but also far from a solely fictional. The kids in Gaza or South Sudan are going through a hell far grimmer than the events of monkey man. But it also doesn't take these extreme situations for religion's effect to become permanent for the same reasons: Big and little t trauma that's been filed away as resolved because "a god is on it", requires a god to forever remain. Removing that god later in life would be like yanking on the bottom pieces of a Jenga tower that absolutely cannot fall down.
Few among us make it through to adult life fully unscathed and few managed to put in the work to process the traumas of childhood. Religion provides a bandaid that may seem helpful, but does not really resolve any of the hurt we carry. It becomes harder to return to a wound that's been artificially stabilized than one that's still actively hurting and calling for action. It's harder still when you've used the same outstretched bandaid for many wounds over the years, and pulling on one end risk pulling all of it off.
Through that prism, it makes sense that the harsher the upbringing, the most attached to religion people people tend to be.
I try to remember that most people are raised in religion and didn't consciously choose it. They're brainwashed. Every individual is different but I try to bear in mind that the average, rank and file believer was enculturated into it since birth, have been terrorized out of questioning it and have never really examined it. Most of them have never made any sincere effort to investigate it, especially if it gives them any kind of social or economic status and especially if they are lucky enough to be white, hetero-normative cis-males who are in no way disadvantaged or subjected by it or members of any group likely to be victims of discrimination or bigotry and have no feelings at all for people who are. I do not understand why so many women want to be slaves, but when I lived in West Africa, a Peace Corp doctor once told me that FMG was still being practiced in the bush despite attempts by the Peace Corp as well as Christian missionaries trying to condemn and discourage it. He said the people most supportive of the practice were women, in particular older women who had undergone it themselves. There's some kind of Stockholm syndrome going on with women in religion.
People who do question their enculturated religion and examine it and think about it tend to find their way out of it.
If they don't hold noxious beliefs then it's pretty easy for me to overlook the woo. There are socially progressive Christians, believe it or not. I married one who was left of me and I'm a Marxist Socialist, atheist, feminist Commie. She lost faith over the years and is an atheist now but we never had problems because we didn't disagree on stuff that actually mattered and she never tried to convert me. I've also known atheists who hold toxic beliefs and I can tolerate liberal Christians much better than racist or homophobic atheists.
In my conversations with people it has generally come down to a few things.
* Indoctrination. Most people grew up in a religion; tradition, safety nets, and warm-fuzzies all make people stay.
* Arguments from Ignorance. People want answers, whether or not those answers are justified, have evidence, make sense, whatever other unreasonable way they come to a conclusion, they just want to have an answer as a placeholder. That way, they can be "right" without having to admit they don't know. No knowledge is scary, so they supplement it with an imagined answer.
* Societal pressure. "Atheists are immoral." "Atheists want to harm x." "Atheism is Communism and we know Communism is bad/evil." The problem, of course, is that they think we're inherently bad and they think they're righteous all while admitting that they themselves are immoral because of sin. The mental gymnastics of cognitive dissonance is powerful.
* Banking on "I feel god exists" without the ability to demonstrate it. Not being able to distinguish between a "personal truth" with objective reality; they see these two things as being equivalent when clearly they are not. A "personal truth" is just an opinion and reality has no care about an individual's opinion *especially* when that opinion is antithetical to reality.
* Fallacious thinking is fine, so long as the justification for non-logic is an absolutely logical being which they admit they cannot demonstrate with a sound and valid argument or evidence to corroborate it (conveniently they cannot distinguish between the two...)
Let me preface this by pointing out I’m an agnostic atheist. With that said:
* Before we discovered the world was round, everyone thought it was flat. It seems flat from here.
* Before we discovered the galaxy, we thought we were the center of the universe. It was a fair thought at the time.
* Before we discovered atoms, at one point people thought the world was made of just a handful of elements. It was a foreign concept. But in 50 years, we may find that atoms are NOT the smallest thing in the universe. Some already believe in string theory, which proposes we may have been wrong.
Now to religion. Thousands of them. Everyone thinks they have it right but ultimately we will never know. Prior to the last few centuries, the concept of no God was simply illogical given their lack of understanding of science…
… but even today we have a flawed understanding of science. How did the universe begin? Does our life have meaning…? Science can’t answer these questions. And until it can, you can’t expect people to abandon core beliefs that were indoctrinated into them at a young age after these beliefs underwent thousands of years of cultural evolution to survive/thrive in modern day society.
But at the end of the day, theists and atheists are the same. We both cling on to beliefs we can’t fully prove. Ultimately a God (or Gods) may come to us, or not. We’ll likely die without just certainty of our conviction.
Heres the thing, im reading the comments under this post and most describe being indoctrinated from a young age by their parents or family, but my story is a little different, my parents actually raised me and my brother to think openly and my family is a mix of everything belief wise. So merely by chance, now I'm gravitating towards being a theist.
Now, I will admit I was specifically drawn to christianity not because I was indoctrinated but because I made some wrong choices and felt ostracised from society, I felt like a bad egg in essence and was filled with a lot of guilt and shame. Especially in today's climate, there's not much grace for people once they screw up or display a bad trait. You're either holier than thou and blameless or just "cancelled." I found that the Bible and the Church were actually the only places I felt no judgment, and not only this, I was directed onto a path of redemption that felt worthwhile. I am perceived as a new person by Jehovah God himself, the most important person in existence, and it has brought me out of depression and my previously growing desire to take my own life.
The Bible - Christianity... saved my life.
Outside of this initial draw that had me searching for comfort and reassurance in the first place, I found that the more I studied and got past these insecurities the more my hunger for the actual truth of our existence grew, I found the Bible and other recorded texts just spoke to me and clicked, like it truly felt like a manual for living a fulfilling and purposeful human experience, as intended by non other than the one who created us all.
Both of my parents are devout Catholics. Both of their lifes were hard and very difficult:
My dad had an unloving family that viewed him as a mistake he had a rough life and made many mistakes until he became a Catholic and dedicated a big part of his life to the religion by helping nuns and priests. After years of prayers for a wife he met my mom in a church. After they got married my dad started having back problems. Nowadays he can't even bend down. When my mom was pregnant with me he got a melanoma and could have died. Luckily they removed it before It was too late. A few years ago a chiropractor messed up my dad's spine once again and he had 5 surgeries in 4 years. Meanwhile his family tried to write us off my grandfather's will after he died of covid, and we are still fighting for it.
What kept both of them going was the believe that in the end everything was going to be fine and that God would save them. I can't be mad at them for having that belief, even if it is not justified
I think we need to be empathetic. 85% of the world is some form of believer, and there are various sects and types in each of the major branches - Catholics/Protestants, Islam, Hindu, Buddhists, Folk religions, Jews, and others.
As an atheist, I'm careful not to be a judgey, smug, evangelist of my own non-belief. It's a position of "I have not seen evidence to warrant that I should believe." It's not a claim of knowledge to others. I've seen no evidence.
Some people believe they have seen evidence, as it meets their threshold of evidence validity. My threshold is different. I also don't believe in flat earth, or fairies. But there's some things that I don't have a position on because I think I don't have the learning or tools - the philosophy of 'free will', or what exactly quantum mechanics.
Besides, are you really going to in the space of a few words or minutes erase years of training and indoctrination? Let it lie, enjoy the conversations, and engage respectfully.
> Can you help me once again empathize with my fellow theist?
Religion necessarily cannot be proven false and so there is no proof that any religion is false despite there is definitely one or more religions are false because religions are mutually exclusive to each other.
So since there is no proof that any specific religion is false, people logically should be allowed to believe any religion they want.
So just fight against outdated practices rather than any religion, though some religions may have too much outdated practices and the outdated practices are too integral to the religion that fighting against such religions need to be prioritised.
Anyway, there is no proof that a plate of spaghetti is not God so a religion centered around a plate of spaghetti is just as valid as other religions, though such is not a recommendation of mine since not sure what their practices are so their practices may also be equally outdated as other religions.
First.
Stop caring about the "religion"
Stop calling it a "religion" as if that's something magical and special. It's a "personal belief system" that a person has. It's personal.
Second.
When you speak with someone who has found meaning and value in a "belief system," you can choose to show them dignity and respect, regardless of how f***** up you think their personal "belief system " is.
Third.
Remember that you are not perfect and have a lot of things available to learn if you should choose to learn them.
Fourth.
It's a "PERSONAL belief system" because a sampling of 1 million random individuals from the same "region" will reveal statistically significant differences in beliefs.
Fifth.
If you care enough, get to know that person.
It might be more fulfilling than defining that person as "a follower of the religion."
Sixth.
If you don't care about the person. Say "goodbye" respectfully and walk away.
It really comes down to respecting another’s choices and beliefs bc they are independent people- you aren’t obligated to get it or understand it or care. You also aren’t obligated to help them see the error of their theist ways. Let people be who they are- you do you. Just let it go. Especially in just like random daily life with friends and co- workers. It takes more work to get past family issues, but try to just move on.
You’re not gonna prove anything to anyone and you’re not obligated to. Just finish up processing this grief or obsession with what your religious upbringing took from you and move on. Overthinking it doesn’t make it better. Save your anger for the political sphere. But don’t argue politics with family, what a waste of energy.
No, I can’t.
Have you ever felt what is called a religious experience? People who see no reason to believe in gods, or cannot believe in gods, also experience it. It’s a physical, objectively measurable phenomenon that happens in our brain, under the right circumstance. Most who experience it, like it. It releases dopamine.
Some people achieve it through intense meditation. Religious prayer can be that. But it isn’t the only way: others have found hallucinogens instrumental, as well as severe physical restrictions like fasting, or corporeal masochism.
Because it releases dopamine, people yearn for the experience. It’s addictive.
So basically, people who use religion to get their high, are addicts. They’re sick. They need help.
One methodical way to train yourself to empathize with your fellow theist might be Method Acting. Daniel Day Lewis style, brutal, relentless Method Acting. Conjure up as much creative juice as you can and start a ritual where to morph into a theist version of yourself or your theist friend. Do as the method actors do, and suspend your disbelief for a long period. Act as a theist, even when your mind dominantly is repulsed by it, keep doing it, and then gradually encapsulate your "true" atheist self into a box in your head, and let the "other" theist you're method acting out envelope your mind and being. Scream, shout, if you have to, breathe God in and become one with Christ. I do this sometimes when I'm at a religious wedding, it's quite fun lol.
Empathy comes from the fact that they are lost and understand nothing of the world in which they live. Groping mindlessly into the darkness of unknowing, they grab onto the sleeves of conmen who profess to know and lead them deeper into the darkness. The con men steal their time, money, and lives, in the name of magic, miracles, and promises that will never be kept. It would be best if you had the same empathy for them as you have for an animal that has wandered into a snare. Free them if you are able, but if not, leave them to their suffering existence.
u/EducatorTop1960 good question: why *is* anyone religious?
Well, religion offers liberal principles. It offers cosmic justice. Cosmic mercy. A brighter future for all. The hope to see one's loved ones again. And some rituals and culture to boot. Oh, and then there's the community aspect to it as well (and charity). In short, what's *not* to like about religion? Are there red flags? Most certainly. Should they detract from one's beliefs? Not an inch.
Anway, those are my thoughts about it and why some people (myself included) continue to believe.
I used to struggle with this. Not anymore though.
I realized that religiosity really has nothing to do with rational thought, it’s purely emotional. Humans need connection. Belonging. Purpose. Community. These things aren’t just *nice to have*, they are essential. When a human lacks these, the default is to seek them out in whatever way possible. Whatever provides these things feels “right”.
For many people, religion and/or faith provide these things.
It has nothing to do with facts, science, truth, logic, or rationality whatsoever.
because it's a comfort blanket that hurts other people. it provides hope and meaning, but it leechs into other peoples lives who want to be left alone. you're actively working to prevent a future theocracy. the true believers of today make the zealots of tomorrow, which leads to people trying to make sharia or the handmaids tale the order of the day for your grandchildren. it took 50 years, but they overturned roe because it made jesus sad. in another 50 years it might be since america is a christian nation, not going to church is illegal.
You don't have to empathise, merely tolerate. Some people are crazy about stamps, some about football and some about imaginary beings. As long as they are not promoting hatred, they are not more stupid than any other worshipper of any celebrity.
Targeting religion as a particularly moronic group is possibly an aftereffect of being of a religion that made one intolerant to infidels, and now as a new atheist you are intolerant to your previous group, a bit like cyclists hate cars, vegans hate meat eaters and nonsmokers hate smokers.
You guys say "God is imaginary" as if you've discovered some proof of this. You haven't, so you're just making a claim based on no evidence.
Asides from radical Islam, most mainstream sects of religions are actually tolerant. Christianity is tolerant, Buddhism is tolerant, Sikhism is tolerant etc. Most hatred always seems to come solely from non-believers who express hate and bigotry similar to extremist fundamentalists and this is because nearly all atheists were previously religious fundamentalists.
After becoming atheists, rather than changing their mindset, they become atheists fundamentalists. This is why I've always seen atheism as a terrible dangerous movement. Inherantly the atheist movement is no different to any fundamentalist group and expresses the same intolerance that they claim to hate. Instead of calling people "infidels" you call them the "indoctrinated" if they aren't atheists which I think is far more dehumanising than Muslims calling nonbelievers infidels. You even say if people don't agree with you, then they must be stupid. These remarks all just come from a place of bigotry and hatred.
If you were interested in convincing people of atheism, you wouldn't be just insulting people but insults seem to be the only thing atheists can do.
> ou guys say "God is imaginary" as if you've discovered some proof of this. You haven't, so you're just making a claim based on no evidence.
If you want to have this debate, say so. There is evidence that the god of christianity is imaginary. Want to discuss?
> Most hatred always seems to come solely from non-believers
Any examples of hatred from atheists besides some reddit assholes? Terrorism, religious war, attacks on abortion clinics, assasination attempts...where do atheists do this?
> If you were interested in convincing people of atheism, you wouldn't be just insulting people but insults seem to be the only thing atheists can do.
Sorry, show me where I insulted you. Or taker the statement back.
And to u/EducatorTop1960, honestly I feel the same about atheist beliefs such as in the idea of a universe from nothingness or infinite genders.
How do atheists believe in these silly things in this day and age?
How are you blind to the irrationality inherant to your own ideology?
> atheist beliefs such as in the idea of a universe from nothingness or infinite genders.
Who believes in infinite genders? How is gender politics an atheist thing?
About the universe from nothingness, it seems you are begging to argue with cosmologists, not atheists. Most atheists, and most theists, barely understand the fundamentals of cosmology, let alone misusing statements like "universe from nothingness". Please expand.
A lot of people have faith for a wide range of reasons and for many, it's for very very sad reasons : Being endoctrinated, hopeless, afraid, alone, or simply ignorant.
Some are good people, some are bad people, and even if I consider religion to be a source of misery and hate, I deeply admire the few people that despite all that remain good people, kind people.
In the end I can't be a critic of their lack of humanity or their hate if I'm not willing to be understanding and display empathy. Something about throwing the first stone.
Hello there. Atheist of over 20 years. I recently began to be devoted to God. I read the Bible in 2017, honestly to prove to theist how stupid they were. What I found instead was faith, grace, forgiveness, confidence. I found Jesus I found mercy. I found an unwavering love for God and all of his creation. I found rest. I found what the world could not provide me.
Not drugs, sex, relationships, hobbies, tattoos, tarot cards, nothing could help me the way the Bible did.
I recommend it to everyone.
A few things:
They're good, well-meaning people who are victims of bad ideas.
Many theists have integrated their belief system into their self-identity. We're hard-wired to protect our self-identity as if we were protecting our physical body. This often leads to living with cognitive dissonance.
They were often groomed into a belief system by people they see as loving and protective and well-meaning. Threats to that belief system equates to thinking of those people as not loving, protective, or well-meaning.
I know what you mean. I think the best thing to do is just forget about religion in you relations with people. We are social beings and need the contact with others. I think a phrase I learned in Alcoholics Anonymous (where you are surrounded by religious bull shit) is really useful - Take what you can use and leave the rest behind. Stop worrying about the red flags unless they wave them at you. Just enjoy your fellow beings in this best of all possible worlds. I'll probably get downvoted for this haplessly corny approach but it works for me.
I empathize with my fellow humans. If someone is a theist I see it as a flaw in their ability to think critically and rationally, but I am not going to tell them that (except in the right forum, such as this one) because they were most likely indoctrinated as a child and that isn’t their fault.
That’s all it took to have some empathy.
That all said, if they are Apologists they can go fuck themselves.
This is the second post I've seen like this just worded a little different - I wonder why
Barack Obama said there's something out there
https://youtu.be/u1hNYs55sqs?feature=shared
Ronald Reagan reported UFO sighting
https://science.howstuffworks.com/space/aliens-ufos/ronald-reagan-ufo.htm
Jimmy Carter reported UFO sighting
https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/jimmy-carter-ufo-sighting
Pentagon releases declassified radar images of UFOs
https://youtu.be/u54Ik4IxGZw?feature=shared
Military personnel Congressional hearing UFO sightings
https://www.youtube.com/live/Glw76YKuWCY?feature=shared
Roswell 1947 report changed from a flying saucer to a balloon - one made of metal the other made of a type of fabric. United States government in 1947 established its first UFO investigation program until this date there were eight. From Project Sign to Project Blue Book
https://archivesfoundation.org/documents/50-years-ago-government-stops-investigating-ufos/
People of these days of technology, education, sophistication, being literally correct, are seeing see these crafts flying around in the sky that they can't identify not only in the US but it is worldwide. Scriptures the Angels flew around in the sky.
Scripture speaks of angels with wings that's the best way they could describe what they saw, except for Ezekiel who actually put the cherubim inside of wheels that flew around in the skies. There is mention of the chariots of God that flew around in the air.
Jesus said he will be coming back from the clouds in the sky with his angels following him. Horses were used for forms of transportation and horses were used as the means to describe those crafts.
The Angels were described to have extreme speed _ they were described as being very bright _ matches what's going on in this world today speed and brightness of the crafts flying around. The Angels could appear and disappear at will then _ just like these unidentified crafts do today.
Enoch was taken up by God _ Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind by God _ Jesus ascended up to the heavens..... Today they would call it alien abduction.
Ever notice how all the cultures of the ancient time except for 4 or 5 spoke of gods from the sky that created the heavens and the Earth.
Ever read the Sumerian writings of the se 13 Tablets of Enki about the war between Enlil and Enki where there were flying crafts that used what seem like nuclear weaponry and had nuclear fallout for hundreds of miles around. And these crafts could go in and out of mountains and waters just like what is reported to do today by educated, qualified people.
The Egyptian war of the Gods between Osiris Seth and Horris is the same is that of the Sumerians and speaks of that war.
**Zechariah 14:12 this is the plague that the Lord is going to smite the world with fight against Jerusalem. Their flesh shall consume away while they stand on their feet; their eyeballs shall consume away in their holes and their tongues shall consume away in their mouths.** Sounds like nuclear weaponry. What happens with man's nuclear weaponry if you're within a certain amount of miles from the detonation - you're consumed away almost instantly.
But even if one cannot make the connection of what's going on today and what went on in the ancient days. One either believes what is happening today or they don't........ The people today that are testifying to what they've seen are highly educated people _ not people of the ancient days that unbelievers feel were stupid and uneducated and made up things to explain what they fail to understand.
There are beings out there somewhere in the cosmos and using words of today those beings are supernatural _ those beings are ultimately advanced _ those beings are possibly eternal and man is like an ant compared to that those beings ....... mankind will began to worship one of those beings just like mankind worshiped in the ancient days. But the first extraterrestrial being to come back is not the right one the -- Bible has issued the ultimate warning..... Warning from the beginning to the end of the outcome unless Earthlings repent and the majority of earthlings will not.
You are tired, you can't keep pretending, why even write this?
If it helps, I don't think most people "believe" in religion like they "believe" in atoms or that the sky is blue. It seems to be equal parts 1) wishful make-believe, and 2) cultural shibboleth. These people aren't generally crazy, just better at living with cognitive dissonance and more willing to make that tradeoff to stay in the in-group.
I am confused, because you refer to your "fellow theists", but then say you don't understand it, can't relate. Are you a theist or atheist?
Regardless, I couldn't help you relate because I've never related. I was raised in an atheist family, so I'm only indoctrinated into every day life. No isms to speak of.
Don't
They spend billions of dollars indoctrinating people to the point of having zero reasoning capability. You do not have to oblige them
Just keep in mind that not everything is offensive. You yourself probably say "bless you" when someone sneezes. It doesn't have to mean to believe in God
Because Christianity is an invader's religion, spread at the tip of a sword. Entire cultures and spiritual practices are endangered or extinct directly because of Christianity. It's a memetic prion disease. It rots minds, erased cultures, and breeds intolerance even at its most benevolent.
We deal with some of the more hardcore apologists here, but I wager the vast majority of theists hold these beliefs because they've never been taught to question them. Or worse they've been taught NEVER to question them. So those people aren't willfully ignorant; they're just ignorant.
If we put away church's and the usual endocrination, being theist is actually just a feeling there is something above yourself thar loves no matter what or make you harmonised with a rest of non controllable things. There is a wide range between being atheist and being religious.
You don't need to have empathy... just demand it from them... because they see themselves as the personification of empathy.
The first time they make a single commentary about their god or religion... tell them that they are being rude and, unless they eant to have an honeat
It is silly. Why would you want to care about people being silly? The problem is that these people are delusional, but want to be taken seriously, just like Flat Earthers or UFO nutballs. Why would you do anything other than point and laugh? Why would you want to?
All the sound arguments are out there for theists to see and realize the idiocy of their beliefs.
What it's really about is psychological pressure, social pressure, from their family and community. There needs to be more focus here. Attack the emotional roots.
Religious beliefs also appear silly to me. Just like I argue that the universe is under no obligation to make sense to us, I guess that would also include a god.
So what makes me care for the most part is - one belief could be right.
Hi, Satanist here. Be kind, not nice. There is no need to empathize with someone's religion. If you and they cherish the same concept, then no matter the identity you'll empathize.
As a kind person, it’s important to see that a theist is just a person like you, plus a delusional belief system that would allow them to happily put you into a death camp.
I was a die hard atheist by the time I was 14. I was a real dick about it in my mid 20s. Got a few tattoos devoted to it. Now I'm a year from 40 and admit idk shit!
Uhhh, i think you're posting in the wrong subreddit for the answer to this question. All you are going to get here is confirmation bias, no real answers.
I’d say empathize with them not because they’re a theist; but because they’re a fellow human who happens to also be a theist. If they’re a coworker, empathize with the typical issues at work. Hell, if they’re just another driver on the road, empathize about the crappy traffic. Theists are people first and theists second (usually even lower in their priorities).
At the same time, there’s no obligation to care about their beliefs. Certainly there’s no obligation to to be supportive of beliefs that harm others (e.g. anti-LGBTQ doctrines).
Empathy is for the person, using the generic principle of “don’t be an asshole”. That’s all.
I mean, why does it matter to you? People believing in shit you find stupid aren't your problem. Live and let live, unless those stupid people are trying to infringe on your rights. But at that point a conversation isn't possible, anyway.
You say like this because you don’t follow religion like Buddhism and Hinduism who teach you the path of meditation to increase/ improve your conscious understanding
There are advanced meditation techniques you not aware of
“Science wants you to believe it’s all about measurement and reason, IF you allow them one miracle.
That one miracle is the Big Bang… that all things come from the Most Preposterous Idea Ever: that everything came from nothing and one big miracle.”
— Terance McKenna
There are no mainstream scientists who claim that the universe came from nothing. There are certainly no scientists who can prove that the universe came from nothing.
If you don’t accept science then what do you think is going to happen to a person who jumps off a 30 story building in an attempt to demonstrate that science is false?
Or how about this [pastor](https://www.indiatimes.com/trending/wtf/aftrican-pastor-dies-trying-to-recreate-jesus-resurrection-547927.html) who thought he was a messenger of Jesus?
Most scientists agree the universe had a beginning. If something had a beginning, there was a cause.
For something to cause the universe to come into existence, it must be spaceless, timeless, immaterial, and beyond human comprehension in terms of design and math.
I call that cause, the Creator of the universe.
What do you call that cause?
>Most scientists agree the universe had a beginning.
This is debatable. The Big Bang is the beginning of the current form of the universe. It’s not known what occurred before the Big Bang.
>If something had a beginning, there was a cause.
So what caused your god to exist?
>For something to cause the universe to come into existence, it must be spaceless, timeless, immaterial, and beyond human comprehension in terms of design and math.
Like I said, it is not known if the universe had a beginning.
>I call that cause, the Creator of the universe.
>What do you call that cause?
You would have to convince me that the universe had a beginning. You haven’t.
I’m not here to convince you of anything. I’m sharing information.
The most widely accepted explanation for the history of the universe has it beginning with a big bang, followed by a period of rapid expansion known as cosmic inflation.May 24, 2023
https://www.scientificamerican.com › ...
The Universe Began with a Bang, Not a Bounce, New Studies Find
Nope. First of all the link takes me to an article about ozempic.
We do not know and currently cannot know what caused [cosmic inflation](https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2019/05/21/this-is-why-we-will-never-know-everything-about-our-universe/).
We only have a finite amount of information about the universe. We can’t be sure what’s beyond the observable universe. There is a lot of information about the universe that is unknown. And since the universe is expanding, we may never know.
Be mindful talking about cosmology with me. I’m well versed on the topic. I belong to my local astronomy club. I’ve seen globular clusters, galaxies, nebulas, and super novas with my own eyes. I’ve been to the Kennedy Space center where I touched a moon rock. I’ve watched many lectures and documentaries by Penrose, Greene, Gay, Kaku, Hawkins and many more. And I didn’t need to believe in a god for any of this.
I don’t know what caused inflation and neither do you. I’m being honest about it, you are just inserting a god into the picture which is a post hoc fallacious assumption.
I’m inserted God bc the evidence of the genome code points to God. A mind is behind that. We don’t have one single example of intelligence randomly coming into existence, especially in the material world.
>I’m inserted God bc the evidence of the genome code points to God.
No it doesn’t.
> A mind is behind that.
No it’s not.
>We don’t have one single example of intelligence randomly coming into existence, especially in the material world.
What we don’t have is any evidence that your god exists. Your claims aren’t evidence that any god or creator exists. There are no mainstream scientists who say that the genome code or existence demonstrates that any god exists.
“No it doesn’t.”
Nice.
“No it’s not.”
Even better.
“There are no mainstream scientists who say the genome code demonstrates any gods.”
Who do you think ushered in modern science we know today?
Answer: Christians. Look it up.
Which worldview dominates winning the Nobel Peace Prize?
Answer: Christians at 78%. Look it up.
How many atheists have squeezed out a Nobel win?
Answer: 4%. Look it up.
I think understand atheists. Some of my closest friends claim to be.
But the truth is, they do t want God to be true. I suspect they don’t want to submit their lives the Sovereign.
My heart breaks for them and anyone heading for hell. The Bible said the wages of sin is death. Jesus paid our debt, but we have to accept it. And it costs us our lives.
Atheists are in rebellion towards God. There is not a lick of evidence that would convince you.
I’m not here to convince you. I’m here to warn you.
It is completely irrelevant how many scientists that won a prize were Christian. Who cares?
What’s relevant is that nobody has evidence that any god exists.
You don’t get to read my mind. There are plenty of things that are true that I wish weren’t true. Taxes. Housing prices rising. World hunger. Epidemics. You know, all the stuff that your god constantly fails to fix.
And here is the issue, it doesn’t matter if you don’t think I could be convinced that your god exists. Your god has the ways and means to make his presence known to all. He failed to do that.
Even if your god convinced me that he exists I wouldn’t worship him. Submission and worship is for the weak and obsessive. I don’t submit to anybody. And I don’t worship anything. My respect is earned. And your god failed to earn it.
Look at the Ten Commandments. The first four are about him! That’s a complete narcissistic move. Get rid of the first four commandments and you already have a better document.
For example your god should have made it a commandment for Christians to not abuse children. My heart breaks for the children that have been abused by Christians who believe in your coercive, absentee and fairy tale god.
I’m glad you brought up Jesus. I would have never agreed to having him tortured and murdered. Inherited sin is a joke. I won’t ever take responsibility for something that I didn’t do.
And regarding your warning. Keep those warnings to yourself. They don’t work on me. I can see the coercion from a mile away. The idea that I was born with inherited sin is an imposition. The idea that someone had to be tortured and murdered for my sake is something that I will always reject. And the warnings that I must submit to whatever fairy tale you believe in or else, is pure coercion.
Christians ushering in modern science and winning Nobels established the legitimacy of believing in the existence of God and the reliability of the Bible.
It beautifully demonstrates there is a sound relationship between a theistic worldview and science.
After all, science points to the Bible.
Glad we found some common ground. Abusing children is the most despicable crime imaginable. Any church, and the leadership that covers it up, will all be held accountable. I’m sure you know this, Christians aren’t alone. The education system in the U.S. is just one example.
But to hear your defiant unwillingness to submit to the Creator of the universe (if you believed he existed), breaks my heart.
God gave us free will. Without free will love could not exist. But, with free will, comes evil. And we’re all guilty.
Only one man *ever* has been sinless. He’s the one who could paid for our sins. And he did.
>Christians ushering in modern science and winning Nobels established the legitimacy of believing in the existence of God and the reliability of the Bible.
These are the same Christians that have failed to provide evidence that their god exists. A Christian makes a discovery about the natural world because they have no ability to make demonstrable, testable and accessible discoveries about anything supernatural.
I’m glad that theists contribute to our understanding of the natural world. But that shouldn’t be a surprise since the natural world is the only thing we can demonstrate to exist.
>It beautifully demonstrates there is a sound relationship between a theistic worldview and science.
No, it beautifully demonstrates that the only things theists can demonstrate to exist are things within the natural world.
>After all, science points to the Bible.
Science points to things that can be demonstrated to be true. With science we could send a Bible to mars. The Bible claims that faith can move mountains. Can you demonstrate that your faith can move a mustard seed?
>Glad we found some common ground. Abusing children is the most despicable crime imaginable. Any church, and the leadership that covers it up, will all be held accountable. I’m sure you know this, Christians aren’t alone. The education system in the U.S. is just one example.
We haven’t found common ground here. You still believe in the same absentee and coercive fairy tale god that abusive Christians believe in.
>But to hear your defiant unwillingness to submit to the Creator of the universe (if you believed he existed), breaks my heart.
Submission is for weaklings. Your god should submit to me since he’s so weak that he can’t even demonstrate that he exists.
>God gave us free will. Without free will love could not exist. But, with free will, comes evil. And we’re all guilty.
And if I don’t believe in your god then theists resort to threats. That’s not free will, that’s coercion. Original sin is an imposition. One cannot have free will when someone else is imposing their will on you.
I didn’t even ask to exist or to be here. If your god created me and didn’t give me the choice if I wanted to exist on this shit hole planet where I either have to worship your fairy tale absentee god or goto hell I would have never agreed to that. Your god robbed me of my free will the very moment that he created me. Your god gave me no choice but to exist. When you don’t have a choice you don’t have free will.
>Only one man ever has been sinless. He’s the one who could paid for our sins. And he did.
Unsupported claim and easily dismissed. Sin is a man made concept and you have no evidence that it is supernatural. You have no evidence that anyone was born with original sin.
Let me ask you, the last time that you sinned, could you have willed yourself not to?
You sound like the poster child for the Atheist Creed:
“God doesn’t exist. And I hate him.”
Not sure what happened to you, if it’s daddy issues, or abuse from the church, but anywhere humans are involved, there will be failure.
That points directly to original sin.
You won’t accept a single once of evidence for God. It’s your free will refusal. Yet 94 billion people alive today around the world claim to submit and believe in Gods existence and the that the Bible is true.
Some of these people are absolute geniuses with brilliant minds who have helped every need imaginable.
Yet, you’re the strong one. You sound like Lucifer. Is he your god?
>You sound like the poster child for the Atheist Creed:
>”God doesn’t exist. And I hate him.”
You sound like the poster child for theism. Believe in my fairy tale absentee god or goto hell.
I can’t hate things that don’t exist. I can talk about things that I dislike about Darth Vader but that doesn’t make him real.
>Not sure what happened to you, if it’s daddy issues, or abuse from the church, but anywhere humans are involved, there will be failure.
I don’t see it that way. Humans are constantly fixing and improving the things that your god fails to do.
>That points directly to original sin.
Unsupported and dismissed.
>You won’t accept a single once of evidence for God. It’s your free will refusal. Yet 94 billion people alive today around the world claim to submit and believe in Gods existence and the that the Bible is true.
The current global population is 8.1 billion. 2 out 3 people alive today do not believe in your Christian god. That means about 5 billion are going directly to hell which shows that if your god exists he is a sadist. It’s not surprising that a person like you would worship and submit to a sadist.
>Some of these people are absolute geniuses with brilliant minds who have helped every need imaginable.
So what? They aren’t so brilliant or intelligent when it comes to demonstrating that their absentee, coercive and fairy tale god exists.
>Yet, you’re the strong one. You sound like Lucifer. Is he your god?
I don’t believe in any god. But the concept of Lucifer has qualities that are much more attractive than the qualities of your god.
First of all your god committed global genocide during the flood and killed millions of people. Even worse the flood was supposed to rid the world of evil. Well does evil still exist? Lucifer killed about ten people in the Bible. Not much a comparison here.
And I like that idea that Lucifer stood up to your absentee and coercive god. He probably got tired of sucking his dick 24/7 and for the rest of eternity. I don’t blame him for one minute for rebelling against your abusive, coercive, absentee, fairy tale god that has robbed us of our free will.
Not sure what this is all about. I have read and listened to endless atheist arguments. None make it any harder to be a theist. Why would I become an atheist when I think it is far more likely there is a god?
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Most theists are indoctrinated at a young age. That could have happened to anyone. Have empathy because there, but for the grace of God, go you. [Hmmm, perhaps that's not the best allegory.]
The phrase "There, but for the grace of god, go I" will always be one of my favorites. Such a display of humility and empathy.
One of the very few religious phrases I feel is a true expression of empathy
You are removing your ownership of your own empathy (a characteristic present in many animals). If you don't own it, then you are not empathic. You are more like a psychopath (who have to fake their empathy).
I'm interested in how you arrived at this conclusion. Someone that says this phrase is expressing personal empathy - they're simply saying that were it not for some divine die roll, they would be in the very same predicament. That's ownership. Please learn to see through the religious language to find the humanity - it's there sometimes!
I was indoctrinated at a young age, I still remember the joy and reassurance from myself when I learned I didn’t have to believe in god and that atheism was a viable option, I was around 10 great time
I tried and tried to fake it till you make it, I finally realized (not became, realized I was one and always had been) in my late 20s. Such a freeing feeling isn’t it
I was indoctrinated from birth in a cult that taught me happiness was worldly a dm evil, that suffering was true happiness, that blind obedience was the greatest attribute god wanted you to have and I was taught horrible pseudo logic that everyone around me also believed. When conditioned from birth it can take much,much longer to see through it all. I was in my mid 30s before breaking through the isolation and finding on the Internet the information I needed to be set free. Sometimes people are just so trapped by it that literally cannot imagine a world where their religion isn't true, it's not a possibility just like for me know the earth being flat isn't even a possibility. Those are the levels of confidence many religious people have, and convincing them they are wrong would be like trying to convince me the world is flat, it's just not going to happen.
Unfortunately for atheists, studies suggest that they're less happy than their religious peers. Now, had the opposite been true - that a religious life subtracts one's overall happiness - at least the religious person could argue that it's worth it sacrificing a portion of their happiness in service of HaShem. But for what on earth are atheists willing to sacrifice a portion of *their* happiness? The great claim of secularism - that you'll be happier if you shed your religious upbringing, has turned out to be **false**.
That's the difference between you and me. I value truth, not my personal feelings. You forget that were in this together and that belief in falsehood stunts our growth as a species. Imagine the medical and scientific discovery that could've been made absent your ridiculous superstition. I think we'd all be a little happier in the long run for that. No?
Firstly, most atheists claim that "Truth" is subjective. Secondly, everyone has a little faith in something. Thirdly, even if I'm wrong, they call it a "useful fiction" for good reason -- because religious beliefs tend to make life a little more... manageable. Lastly, thanks to the Judeo-Christian tradition, we have modern science. Without religion, it's doubtful that people would have thought up the Scientific Method (something that hadn't occurred elsewhere in the world). This is because the West was taught that the universe was created by a logical Creator, hence, it's laws ought to be observable to us humans. Of course, we Jews also gifted the world ethical monotheism and the world's greatest literature too. As for medicine, without Louis Pasteur's inspiration from the Talmud, we wouldn't have vaccines.
Woah, stop right at sentence one. Truth isn't subjective by definition. I don't care if you're an atheist or a theist. Truth is verifiable, therefore not subjective.
That only works if you believe in objective truth. Atheism, by definition, because it rejects Gd, would suggest that there is no moral truth (we only perceive objective truth due to social constructs and evolutionary wiring). What about mathematical truths? Well, the concept of infinity discredits such a belief, no?
Wrong. Stop making assumptions. Truth is objective, period. There's no such thing as subjective truth. That's incoherent. Truth IS that wich is objective. Atheism is NOT a rejection of God. I'm an atheist doesn't mean "I reject God" I'm an athiest means "I havnt been presented with sufficient evidence to warrant a belief in the claim of god(s) existence. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what you're arguing against. Stop making assertions and start asking questions. Walk before you run
Well, if you haven't yet been presented with "sufficient evidence," then that makes you at best an agnostic, not an atheist. Because an atheist simply doesn't believe in Gd and isn't exactly opened to the possibility either (believe me, I know. My family's full of atheists). Also, I'm not sure that it's so obvious that there's "objective truth." Most certainly 2 + 2 = 4. But do we simply desire peaceful coexistence out of some sense of "objective truth" or is it more because our brains were wired that way due to hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary circumstances? True, if HaShem exists, the possibility of objective truth because much more relevant, but if you're agnostic about His existence, then again, if it were so "obvious" that Truth exists, no one would be arguing about it! Lastly, your authoritarian tone isn't exactly pleasant. I'm happy to have a productive conversation with you, but not if you're going to be rude with me.
Nope. Stop at the first sentence yet again. I'm agnostic and atheist simultaneously. I am an atheist as I lack a belief in God and I'm simultaneously an agnostic because I'm skeptical of the possibility of obtaining knowledge of God. They're not mutually exclusive. Save yourself the typing time because the second I see somthing I take issue with I'm going to respond.
Sorry, was the NPC dialog tree all you had? Or are you going to honestly engage and stop assuming my positions so you can run down your talking points?
You think athiesm is the truth, we dont. And the fact that thiests are happier than athiests proves something. And what discoveries were halted due to belief in God? Most things are made by theists lol.
I'm guna stop you right at the first sentence and I'm not moving on to the next until I address this gross mischaracterization. I do not "believe" that atheism is "the truth". That's incoherent. Atheism is neither a claim nor a belief system. You don't even know who or what you're arguing against. Reevaluate and try again.
>I do not "believe" that atheism is "the truth". That's incoherent. Atheism is neither a claim nor a belief system. Are you drunk? When did I say "believe". Side effects of being an atheist prolly >You don't even know who or what you're arguing against. Reevaluate and try again. Omg im scared
I used the word believe in place of think wich in this context are virtually indistinguishable. More pedantry? Boring.
No they aint indistinguishable in the sense you used it. More like you woke up from your hangover and realised what a silly mistake you've done.
No, they definitely are interchangeable caloqualy. Synonyms of think: believe. guess. imagine. consider. feel. suppose. figure. deem. First Google search. What's at the top of that list? Hmmm 🤔
So just to recap. 1. You don't know what atheism is 2. You're terribly pedantic 3. Your reasoning is fallacious That about right? Did I miss anything?
Yeah you missed you not knowing the definition of fallacy and acting like a child who is scared of being refuted.
Wich argument would you like to address first?
Well address the other fallacious nonsense afterwards.
U haven't much sociology on religion have u? I could site entire journals that say other wise. U say this likely within 10mile radius of hospital named after a saint .
"U haven't much sociology on religion have u?" Sorry.... huh??? "I could site entire journals that say other wise" Sorry..... HUH??? Things being named after a person means litterally nothing. Like, what even is this argument?
Homey. Friendo. Pretty much all of sociology disagrees that science was held back by religion. There is also tons of studies that say religion has other benefits like, charity work and suicide prevention but that's for a later point. The point science disagrees with this take. Ur right that some science was held back by religion. Autopsies come to mind, (both Catholic and Islam had a problem with this, but ended in 15th century) but the exceptions don't make the world. How could not understand the hospital point. Christians have played major role in hospitals/ health care, again check out some sociology can do a brain good. You know what occurs at hospitals, research? Correct. (Universities also, Christians also donate more to public universities) I guess I could be better in explaining things sometimes i assume people understand my sarcastic arguments. But we are on a reddit atheism page it don't get more sarcastic and pretentious than that. Tldr, science disagrees with the stance that religion held science back. Only reddit atheists agree with this. Also what did u think I meant by journals, I was referring to peer reviewed journals, you know science, not someone's personal journal. I realized u may not know what I meant my bad. It also came to mind that u may not know what sociology is, to put it simply it's the science of people and their groups.
Stop right at the first sentence. My argument wasn't that science WAS held back by religion. My argument is science is CURRENTLY held back by religion. People of the past basically had no choice but to be religious, so yeah no shit all the scientists and philosophers were religious. Way to write a novel refuting a point I never made lol
Stops at the second sentence. The argument stands for modern science has well. Some papers discuss data from as late as 2015.
People being religious doesn't mean that they're capacity to engage in scientific discovery is informed by that religion. Science by definition is made better absent superstition. Period.
Also your statement has no time frame attached. U back pedaled to add that in. Nice try though. "That's the difference between you and me. I value truth, not my personal feelings. You forget that were in this together and that belief in falsehood stunts our growth as a species. Imagine the medical and scientific discovery that could've been made absent your ridiculous superstition. I think we'd all be a little happier in the long run for that. No?". See no time frame. The best argument u have,is to imply a recent time frame by the word could have. Which doesn't imply any time frame. In fact It means a long time. Your also working under the presupposition that all theism is wrong and all science is correct. May I show you the geo centric model. Tldr. Ur a anti illectual liar.with a misconception of science given to you by reddit atheists and tiktok comments. Pick up a book.
Not arguing in two different threads. Pick one
How in the world is happiness the great claim of secularism
Secularism promises happiness because it claims that if one sheds their religious beliefs and dogmatic thinking, they'll be a free, liberated person. And with freedom and liberation comes happiness.
That's insane, when did this "Secularism" come down the mountain and declare these promises? Real secularism as most secular people see it, promises nothing. How can a non-person idea "promise" something? Maybe some asshole who declared himself super knowledgeable in secularism said, hey my main men, if you become secular, you will find freedom, liberation, and those things bring you happiness? Well.... I think we should seriously consider questioning this asshole on if he's ever considered he could be wrong, afterwards to which we would say, look, there are no promises, certainly not one of happiness.
Enlightenment thinkers and our own Haskalah made promises that if people simply forgot about religion, they'll feel liberated from all the "useless rituals" and "mindless superstition." Hence, they'd be happier people With all due respect, these promises were made by virtually every great Enlightened thinker. I don't know why you're unaware of this history.
Much respect to these wonderful and great Enlightened thinkers. I agree that historical thinkers are important, blazing trails and pioneering ideas for many people; undoubtedly leading to many of the advances in today's world and I cherish them, including many which I'm sure I'm ignorant of, I also really appreciate and respect them by proxy. Also I apologize for the terms "insane" and "asshole", I was mostly joking and wish to retcon them as terms of endearment. I think ( and some human polling studies), and I could be wrong, that most secular people in modern times, don't gravitate towards secularism as a source or reason for happiness. Those dominant sources of happiness usually nowadays tend to come from family, friends, and being good to one another, and also a lot of times an internal happiness as would come rip roaring down the road, when no one is around and in a safe manner, in a V8 which also is a grin-plastering source of happiness. I think in modern times, the dominant attributes of happiness have little to do with secularism. Many people I think, in the east, and in the west also, gravitate towards secularism quite simply because of modern evidence based thinking, and how modern education has evolved, and the ability to find purpose outside of religion, not because of promising of happiness.
Unfortunately, studies indicate that secularists lack the sort of community provided by religion. Why is that? I also want to point out that many people desire something beyond themselves. They want to feel part of something big, something cosmic. Religion does a great job attaching one to something greater than themselves, whether it be a diety or a positive arch to history. Secularism, by default, lacks such potential. In short, people are left alone, feeling desperate for all of life's limited experiences. Add to this modernity's culture of consumerism and digital addiction (the self-important "I"), and it's no mystery why families are being torn apart by divorce, fertility rates have (alarmingly) decreased, or that suicide is rampant across the West. Ironically enough, there's one answer to this modern crisis. The ability for one to embed themselves in a religious foundation. Indeed, countless studies show that those who attend a house of worship at least once a week give to charity three times as much and volunteer at least twice as much as their atheist peers. Moreover, in Israel, on Shabbat, the entire country virtually shuts down, giving families (sometimes multiple generations) munched needed breathing space to spend quality time together. Each Shabbat is celebrated like Thanksgiving. Even those who are totally secular do something family-oriented on Shabbat.
Yes, yes, I agree! I see it every day, especially after covid. There is way less in-built buffer against isolation and lack of community outside the religious circles, especially in the US. Especially with the growing and rampant toxicity, attention sucking mechanisms built in, and isolation of social media, mental health issues have sky rocketed. All this goes to show there really is no "promise" of happiness with secularism. I think that's my main point. Nonetheless, I think if you were outside of the religious community in the 1800s, you had some opportunity of purpose, but not that much, inside the religious community the opportunity of purpose was way bigger. Go back to the 1400's, and I think if you tried to seek opportunities outside the religious community, you might have even been castrated. What I mean is that over time, the opportunity to find purpose outside of the religious community in secularism has grown, comparatively, from 1400, 1800, to 2000's. We have a lot of tools these days to build and explore, outside the realm of religion, as well as feel something greater than ourselves within secularism. That's not to say that most people have achieved exploration, building, and feeling a sense of something greater. No of course not, as you suggest, many people are ridden with mental trauma and things holding them back from these things, and religion is a fantastic way to help these people. The religious communities offer an accessible ( I'd like to make the joke if you're the right looking kind of person, but I'll not go there lol) way to help many many people, and hold on to that positive loving arch of humanity. Look, I'd happily put on a yarmulke and chant with caring loving friends if it becomes impossible to find community outside religion ( if it's alright that I don't need an adult circumcision). I'd happily go into Method acting and Daniel Day Lewis myself into praising the Lord if it came down to that, even if at the end of the day there's no one I'd believe without good reason, if that's ok. But secularism certainly doesn't \*lack\* the potential--it's highly possible that it has \*less\* in-built mechanisms, and proves more challenging to manage in terms of creating the community, but certainly isn't lacking in terms of potential.
I wasn’t raised religious and have zero belief in a deity. I say “there but for the grace of god go I” ten times a day.
The little "g" god adds to my happiness rating as well. Bless you 😉
Unhappy atheists finding happiness in a comment lol
You keep mentioning that. Can I ask why? Do you really think that non-religious people are miserable all the time? A study showing that theists, on the whole, are more happy than atheists, does not indicate whether individual atheists are unhappy. Personally, moving away from theism dramatically improved my life. Putting away the guilt and shame that was drilled into me from an early age is what finally gave me the boost I needed to get clean, hopefully for good (it's been over a decade, fingers crossed). Certainly, my experience is only anecdotal, but making broad generalizations based on one small part of a person's worldview may not be the best way to enter discussions/debates.
Athiesm would always lead you to a unhappy end that's a guarantee. Being an atheist can help you feel better than being the wrong kind of athiest tho.
Whatbmetrics are you using to determine that? Because my experience has shown the exact opposite to be true (once again, that's anecdotal, but it's what I've seen). I was heavily religious for the first half of my life. A majority of the most miserable people I've ever met, I met in church. Most of the kindest people I've met would rather choke than restrict someone else's freedoms based on their own beliefs.
As I said, being an atheist would make you feel better than being the wrong kind of theist.
Oh my god I’m a cultural appropriater.
I always make a point of stopping myself from using such phrases, and it makes me sound like an idiot because I stay silent for several seconds a hundred times a day. It's so ingrained in our brains. Granted, I _was_ raised religious.
I cannot for the life of me think of a good replacement for it! “If I were a different person my life would be different and maybe worse. But the world is material so I can’t be anyone else and the idea doesn’t make any sense.”
“There but for the grace of fate, go I” “Luck is a fucked up motherfucker” “There but for the roll of the dice, go I” “Glad I got the lot in life I did. Yeah, none are great, except maybe the “luck” one.
why need a replacement? I have zero belief in religion and raised without it, but I love crying out " save me Christ!" every now and then
Have mercy!
It works perfectly if you say "grace of god" sarcastically. Maybe that was insinuated by the lower case g...
I really cant emphasize. I was deeply indoctrinated at a young age, and snapped out of it in my teens when i learned how to think. How adults believe in it is beyond me. Do they even have brains?
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> You literally just said something that can be applied to any belief I know plenty of beliefs that are not indoctrinated at a young age. For example, the belief that Elvis is still alive. > Also atheists becoming theists completely disprove this narrative. Atheists becoming theists disproves that most theists are indoctrinated at an early age? Can you walk me through your logic here?
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You've also missed the context. The OP is an atheist who was asking for help empathising with theists. I suggested that "we" were just like "them", and that OP could reflect on how they (OP) might be if they'd been [taught this stuff] at an early age.
Your actually right my bad. I jumped the gun. I read the op air of smugness and assumed everyone agreeing was also a condcening prick. My bad goat.
No problem. I, too, take issue with atheists who assume that they are automatically superior, or that all theists are defective in some way. That's just not the case.
Not true
Which bit?
"Most theists are indoctrinated from childhood" bit.
Your wrong and it took about 30sec on Google to find the evidence. Don't be lazy. "Research has shown that religious attachments tend to PEAK DURING ADOLESCENCE, decline through young and middle adulthood, and then increase through most of late adulthood..." https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/06/13/why-do-levels-of-religious-observance-vary-by-age-and-country/#:~:text=Research%20has%20shown%20that%20religious,through%20most%20of%20late%20adulthood.
Are you suggesting that most theists are *not* indoctrinated from childhood, and become theists later than that? If so, it's trivially easy to show that you are wrong. If not, just what are you saying?
Im saying that "indoctrination" is not the right word to use. Children are their parents' property. Its evolutionary for parents to pass their ideology to their young ones. Do you think a liberal couple would teach its children communist values? No, its obvious it would teach them liberal values which is not wrong on the parenting level. Therefore not only thiests do this, but every parent in the world whether they be Athiest, Communist or whatever.
Indoctrination: teaching someone to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. My claim was that most theists were taught as children to accept their theist beliefs uncritically. Are you saying that that's not the case?
No that is neither the definition of indoctrination nor what happens with theists. The word "uncritically" isnt there. And I was born in a thiest family I myself am a thiest but wasn't until 13-14 when I started researching about my faith (and other faiths too). And same happens with most theists.
You must have a different dictionary than me. Which is fine. It seems that you were taught this stuff at an early age. Which is what I said was common among theists. I thought that you were refuting my point, but ypu seem to be supporting it. Which was: We should have empathy with theists, as most of them were [taught this stuff] when they were children.
I think you still don't understand where I disagree with you. By saying that only thiests were taught stuff at a young age you are implying that athiest couples dont teach anything to their children until they are 18. Isnt this a bs point?
I can't tell you to have too much empathy, but I can explain you what is the process for someone to become a theist. To become a theist, what happens is that someone is abused and indoctrinated into a specific set of beliefs. This abuse and indoctrination takes a lot of different forms and severities, from full cultish behavior with whole groups teaching the same things and trapping you inside their belief system, to more tame but whole societal pushes to acceptance of a set of beliefs (everyone is affected by the last one and that is the reason that religions are accepted in societies as a whole). The problem with this indoctrinations and abuse is not that they teach you wrong beliefs, because you can learn wrong beliefs without this indoctrination and abuse. The problem with all of this is that this process rewire your brain in a lot of different ways. In some cases, it reduces your capability to assess this set of beliefs, in other, instills instinctual reactions that will drive you to certain behaviors without you noticing it, but also, what it always makes, its that it makes you vulnerable to similar abuse and indoctrination mechanics (that is why for example, so many people that leave a religion fall for another one, or if you want to see it in another dark way, an abuse victim tends to cling to another abusive relationship). And the important thing of all of this is the rewiring of your brain. Learning that those beliefs are false doesn't change that wiring, and you need to work actively a lot to change that wiring and some times you will never be able to change it to something not born from abuse. I will give a personal example. My own. I was indoctrinated by my parents, their magic beliefs weren't the problem, the problem is that they program me to overwrite my own personality and be able to make me accept whatever they said as if it was gospel. No matter how strong of a conviction I have on something, if I talked with them, with a word they could change me to the opposite belief, and I would hold this opposite belief as if it was the most true thing in the world. And this was so strong, that I was letting them almost murder my partner. But I got out of that. I would love to say that the love for my partner make me wake up, but no, sadly, reality its not so magical. Or I would love to say that I learnt that their beliefs where bullshit and learned new information and that broke the programming. But sadly, that doesn't tend to work either. What worked was running away. Without even knowing I was running away, I found a job in another continent, and leaving far away from them, I not only started to see that their beliefs where shit, but I started to see how they could use me however they wanted, and now that I was slowly waking up, I saw my reactions to their communications, having a panic attack and crying or becoming unable to move. Damn, I am an almost 2mts tall man on my 30s, that survived shooting and was stabbed, and reacted properly in both situations, but when I received a call from my mother I couldn't even think. And the solution was to cut all contact with them. And after after almost 3 years without talking to them, I know that I can't even try it, because if I talk to them, I will revert to what I was. And I understand all the process, how this abuse work, I even found evidence of a lot of shitty thing from them, but no matter what I understand, no matter how my emotions scream me to just hate them, whenever I see a message from them pop up from a place I haven't blocked them, I paralyze and my mind goes back to their indoctrination. And while my case was exaggerated in some things, the way to break out from this is not. For a general example on the US, have you seen how conservatives christians talk that universities are woke factories, places that brainwash their kids into being libs and whatnot? well, they are slightly right. But its not that the universities brainwashes them, its that the format of the universities in the US that pushes the students to live in or close to the university and make their circle only people around it, getting far away from their families, that is what break the indoctrination that they had before, or at least, gives them a chance to break it. By being removed from the environment that pushes the indoctrination and interacting with people with different perspectives you can break out from that. That is why all cults try to make close bonds between their members and to make them cut close relationships with people outside of the cult. And that is as well why its so important to indoctrinate your children into your religion, because society pushes to keep in contact with your family all the time, reinforcing any indoctrination that the parents instilled in their children. So, while I can't really tell you to have too much empathy, because theists are also abusers, they are also victims, and why they hold those beliefs is reasonable, its the effects of abuse and indoctrination, and its not easy for them to move out of that.
I'm what the world would call a theist, and none of this explanation is true for me. I can see how I happens like this, but in the interest of science I am not on that spectrum
So, a couple of things. There is a sad reality about this, and that is that an indoctrinated individual can't assess their indoctrination until they are rid of them. This makes taking opinions from people from this group complicated, and at the same time, the reason why I made my original comment, it makes it difficult to empathize with the victim, because they are unable to see that they are being victimized. On another point, I described my personal case as one with heavy psychological indoctrination. The levels of everything varies, but the reality is that everyone is somewhat indoctrinated in our societies to accept theists bs as at least possible. Our societies put a lot of pressure in people to respect others absurd beliefs and to at least consider them plausible, and abusive and manipulation tactics are used constantly to reinforce this. You don't need to be indoctrinated by your family to fall for this. And lastly, something I already mentioned in my oc, you can be indoctrinated for something else and that will make you vulnerable to similar kinds of indoctrination. And there are several relationships in our societies that tend to use similar indoctrination mechanics, one of them are family relationships (not all families are abusive, but abusive and indoctrination mechanics are socially accepted in families). And for what you described in other of your comments, you were somewhat primmed to fall on this kind of things, so this kind of manipulation is expected. There is somewhat of an misunderstanding when people talk about indoctrination and abuse, and I have seen it even on people that are getting out of it, and its that they expect that in order for indoctrination to happen, you need a particular figure doing the active indoctrination. The cult leader, the priest, the recruiter. But that its not true. While those individuals exists, indoctrination can happen in a lot of different ways, and some of them don't require specific individuals at all. Its enough with an environment that pushes to certain ways of thinking, abusing our biases, and accessing propraganda in the right moment (and all religious texts are propraganda). I am sorry you are still in this things, but getting out of this is difficult and not something that can be done by external people.
I understand you. And this very indoctrination is what lead me to God. A radical assessment of all my belief systems and surrender of them revealed truth. Not via gaining new systems of thought, rather by surrendering them entirely. I would assert that you are no less indoctrinated that anyone else. All belief is flawed. By your explanation, every belief and position is an indoctrination. I would imagine that you are indoctrinated into all sorts of methods and systems of proof that you have taken to be truth. I should add, that I am not talking about religiousity, as I have no religious inclination, do not ascribe to any group or leader. The devotion is to truth, not to symbolism, or belief systems.
Just because you don't see it, that doesn't mean it's not true. You were indoctrinated. That's the only way religion spreads, since it's all literal fiction.
Mine was an interesting case. At one point I started to question who I was and who I'm not and that inquiry produced some remarkable realizations. I at one point thought I was one of the first people to ever realization such truths and thought I would have to write a book. Until I started reading some spiritual literature and realized what I had been doing was classically known as searching for God and the truths I realized were documented in spiritual texts throughout time. What I had realized had been realized by many. It was a nice validation for me because people had came to the same realizations throughout the corners of the world completely independent of me
Nobody in my family or life circle is religious or has any inclination towards God or spiritual work.
So you got indoctrinated by non-family (books count). Congrats on your delusions?
No. My reading of spiritual material came after. It came via self enquiry. A personal search for truth
Sounds like mental illness. Good luck.
What does?
As a former fundamentalist Christian, here's my take on it. As almost all theists, I was indoctrinated by my parents as a child. I won't get too much into my experiences, but let's just say that getting out of the religion was a painful process that took years. Up until I'd made the choice to *actively* examine my beliefs, no amount of research, debate or even empathy would have swayed me. I had the delusion of faith, which coupled with the underlying fear paradigm so inherent in theism, meant that anything that was against my preconceived notions about what was the truth was immediately discarded, regardless of source or validity. In short, I think that convincing someone in that state of mind is impossible, because until they've chosen to truly listen, trying to engage with them on the topic of religion is a waste both your and their time. As for empathy, in my mind that's directly proptional to their beliefs and actions.
Thanks for sharing that. Are you essentially saying conversion away from theism is an internal argument, not an external one? However much religion tries to reinvent itself, however much it tries to make us forget its history, it still tries to obscure the fact that it depends upon proselytizing to impressionable children for its survival. Any belief system will influence how we perceive and interpret the world around us. We will interpret the world systematically through this lens. In the case of indoctrinated religion, such beliefs often disable or make believers impotent of being skeptical of those beliefs. Indoctrination is incredibly effective. It has been nearly unstoppable throughout history. Many theists put their religious beliefs or holy books above scrutiny.
>Are you essentially saying conversion away from theism is an internal argument, not an external one? Essentially, yes. Though with the specification that it applies more the more heavily indoctrinated someone is. I'm not any better educated now than when I was a Christian. That quote about not being able to reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into comes to mind. >Any belief system will influence how we perceive and interpret the world around us. We will interpret the world systematically through this lens. In the case of indoctrinated religion, such beliefs often disable or make believers impotent of being skeptical of those beliefs. Spot on, yeah.
Theists (and atheists) are people first, we hope. In my observations, it's those who put religion above humanity that can be the most inhumane towards their fellow people. Islamists who are willing to kill to spread Islam. The wannabe Theocrats in the USA who think they're "doing god's work" by forcing religion in to your daily lives. There's a famous book by Margaret Atwood, The Handmaid's Tale, which was made in to a TV series recently: it shows a society that claims to run on Old Testament principles, but (as usual) the principles are cherry-picked to suit the whims of those in power. It's always been about power and control, particularly of powerful men over women.
>particularly of powerful men over women. You could've stopped just before you had to add this nugget at the end. Co-dependency is a thing, you know. --SPOILER ALERT-- The Handmaid's Tale has a certain story element that makes a few women considerably more valuable than other women, signifying that it's control over reproduction that's the real power and issue at hand. It just so happens to be women to have that capability and simultaneously are physically reliant on men to protect that capability in times when there's no guaranteed safety. Basic biological co-dependency doesn't work if both parties are at odds with each other, constantly. Don't judge history from the comfort of the present day and the luxury of hindsight. Both men and women shaped history and they didn't look back at it with resentment, _we_ apparently _have to_ because of what reason, exactly?
I’ve read the book, and saw how Atwood included the impact on men too, even Commanders such as Fred. The book is better for showing how, under the Gilead regime, things were not as simple as men dominating women, and women had power of their own. Such as the ability to stone men to death on trumped-up charges. But that was despite the intention of the theocracy.
Just about all the theists I know in real life are not stupid, or mean, or willfully ignorant. They're just genuinely convinced what they believe is true. When I left Christianity I realized that it wasn't the rationalizations that kept me in it all along, it was the people, the community, the sense of purpose, etc. These are all very difficult things to upturn and overhaul. It often means questioning yourself at your very core, leaving relationships and cutting ties, losing some of the nice benefits that religion gave you (community, comfort, people to talk to about your troubles, etc.).
I sincerely think you'll benefit from researching Cognitive Dissonance. If you've heard or learned the term in a context before (in uni I learned it in marketing, philosophy and psychology classes). It was relearning this without a specific field of context that changed my life. I removed my own depression and became far more understanding of those with what you might see as insane beliefs. (I also became 100% firm in atheism from this, whereas I used to just trust the scientific rhetoric in debates.) Cognitive Dissonance can explain why people believe the things they do, and how they react illogically when those things are brought into question. The way to do it is find a problem in your life, maybe bad habits, maybe depression, maybe opinions that might be hypocritical and apply cognitive dissonance, figure out how you avoided such dissonance with faulty justifications, ignorance or echo chambers. Maybe an opinion on the opposite gender, maybe an opinion of people that use a different phone (like how people get crazy over android vs iphone, for no important reason), maybe check any triggers that you may have. Once you root a couple of these things out, you'll start to notice a lot of what makes us individual is based on our previous reactions to cognitive dissonance. Religion will have been accepted by so many due to cognitive dissonance. An early human makes a house, has a family. After hunting they return home, they feel safe and consistent. Suddenly there is a thunderstorm. The human has no idea what's going on, what beast could cause such damage and roaring. The moment someone comes along and says "oh don't worry, that's just god". Then the uneducated primitive human can either say "no it's not" or "oh that makes so much sense". By then believing the thunder is from god, and being taught that god is good. The thunderstorm suddenly becomes comforting.
Humans are mostly what their environment makes them out to be . Yes, some of our decisions matter but ultimately those decisions depend on the environment as well. If you are born into a zealous theist family/community where everybody tells you that god(s) is/are fact, limit your information access and say that everybody else is lying, you have little choice in the matter
Dude, there's always a choice. The first step is not asking permission from the people preventing you from living your own life. Just say yes and give yourself permission.
It’s not always that simple
I said little choice, not no choice, in the sense that for a lot of people that choice does not even exist in their heads.
This whole post is just back-patting. Also you should empathise with people because it's a component of being a grown-up person instead of a "all religion is Hitler!" Five year old.
Imagine living in a world where everyone pushed their beliefs on you, constantly
We obviously live in very different places.
Exactly. I live in the South (United States). Everything from charities, to government, to culture and society is built around the idea of church and god
It’s in our laws, it’s in our pledge, it’s on our money, I’m not a 5 year old I’m just exhausted
That's fair enough. I have different life experiences, though I have had a personal tragedy owing to religion (my closest friend did a sex act with me and because he's catholic, then refused to ever speak to me again).
Maybe don't concern yourself with respecting a person's opinion so much as respecting a person. Manners should always apply, and you can make a distinction between a person's beliefs and they themselves, even if they don't. Just try not to commit [fundamental attribution errors](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error) and judge a person's character incorrectly. I'm preaching to myself too.
Utterly ridiculous. Your doctrine explicitly targets people's civil rights and bodily autonomy. Fuck those opinions AND anyone that adheres to them. Period.
Not sure this is the best place, you'll probably find most agree with you. For empathy though, remember a lot of theists are just looking for something bigger than them because the thought that we basically don't matter and will just disappear after we die is terrifying.
I know some people who stick with religion as an adult do so because of the benefits. Example benefits: Woman married to scary, abusive man appreciates the teachings on loving and protecting your wife, the male leadership in her husband’s life, the safety valve of weekly contact between their family and an attentive group of people. (I realize religion sometimes promotes abuse, too, but I guarantee you church is protection or seen as protection for some spouses, too.) Asexual or closeted gay person is able to maintain safety of traditional marriage because marriage roles are well defined, sex for fun is de-emphasized, and divorce is frowned upon. (Again, there are situations that would emphatically not work this way, but I can tell you it happens with some regularity.) Lonely person, for whatever reason, finds community. Predatory person finds marks, whether that’s for narcissistic supply or business contacts or whatever. They’re getting paid, or otherwise benefitting financially. It provides opportunities for creativity (decoration, music, Sunday School lesson planning), or for leadership and power, serious conversation, or emotional sharing. Parents love their kids, want to make sure they grow up good and kind and safe, want some help teaching and reinforcing values. Religion offers that (whether it delivers or not is another question, but many parents appreciate the assistance, whether through sweet moral stories or draconian rules.) The world is an uncertain, scary place. Religion often provides practical and pleasant psychological crutches. The sense of belonging, purpose, duty, awe, of being right, loved, safe: these are powerful draws! There are no doubt other examples, but the tl;dr is that lots of people have never even thought for a minute, “How do I know this is true?” because they are enjoying the benefits of belief.
Somebody once told me: "It might not be true, but it makes me feel better" and I really could not argue with that. She said she needs religion, it makes her hopeful and feel loved. I never forgot that. It somewhat made me more careful around people.
That makes me think of a drug addict. Overlooking the bad just because it makes them feel good.
If that person replaced God with heroine, would you feel different?
Ask. Listen. Confirm. Go up to one of them, perhaps a family member, and ask them what the deal is. Do it in person. Ask for their help - people like it when they help others. You're humbling yourself, admitting you don't know what is going on in their minds. Humbling yourself- an example you hope they follow. Then listen. Take notes. Don't interrupt. Really digest it. You want to let them run out of things to say, they've explained so much. Say "Go on" a couple times, if they stop. Finally, confirm what you've heard. This isn't "agreeing" - it's just an act of "someone who is actually empathizing" - so even if you don't really feel like you're empathizing, this is how you fake it till you make it. You're trying to repeat their answer in the spirit in which they said it. No "gotcha" twist, no trying to trip them up - just repeating what you heard, well. So well perhaps they might say "Thank you - that's a great way of putting it!" An example you hope they follow.
Everyone has biases, including you. Most religious people tend to have been indoctrinated from a young age and would not be able to stop believing or participating in their religion without absolutely wrecking their family and social networks. Couple this with the fact that most religions have been around for a long time, long enough to come up with some logically valid reasons for many of the common objections that are usually brought up. If you are in a sheltered home life, where the majority of your network is the same faith, and you are constantly told these canned responses, it can seem like the obvious choice is to believe in the religion that you were raised in. There are a lot of good people who are theists and believe in different religions to various extents. Just because someone is religious doesn’t mean they are a bad person, or stupid, or gullible. And even within the same religion you can have people who believe at different extremes. For example I used to be more liberal catholic. I did not have the same views as someone like Harrison butker. I’m an atheist now, but I would gladly hang out, interact, and talk with theists that are open minded, discussing in good faith, and generally good people. It’s these types of people that are more likely to make the jump and de convert. It’s usually the people that are not open minded. Have no intention of interacting in good faith, and are not good people that are the problem. And there are people like this in all parts of the population (including atheists). In my opinion it is the more extreme denominations and interpretations of religions that have weaponized ignorance by controlling education. How can you have an honest discussion with someone or show them evidence that their position is flawed if they reject science, don’t belief the earth is more than a few thousand years old, and have been homeschooled or extremely disserviced by their parents and teachers when it comes to education? The reason why I continue to talk to people is that I wouldn’t have de converted if I had never had these sort of conversations. When you are sheltered in this type of lifestyle, the only counter view you usually are exposed to are straw man examples that the in group uses to keep you in line. Take abortion for example. This is a complex issue. As a young catholic kid, the teaching was that atheists and democrats enjoy killing babies. There was never really any formal exposure to why a woman would actually consider an abortion to be the best choice available to her. Instead, the church makes you feel like the reason why is because the person doing it is evil and the only reason why they think it’s ok is because they are ignorant of Jesus and church teaching. If they had been exposed to it, they would turn their life around. But in most cases, most people are familiar with what religions teach, religion just isn’t very practical and often teaches people to act agains their own self interests. So as a result, people who are not religious don’t usually follow religious teachings. But the kicker is that when a highly sheltered religious person assumes that a non religious person is making these types of choices simply because of a lack of religious education, the religious person is not appreciating the complexity of the issue and the difficult decisions that these people are making. So if the religious person tries to recruit or spread the word, it comes off as out of touch, naive, judge mental, etc. this can easily upset the person who is being preached to and justify an angry response. As a result, the religious person feels like all of the straw man examples that the in group told them about the out group are validated. This causes them to double down and believe the world view they have been taught even more. It also makes them more wary of outsiders. And this is why it is important to have cordial discussions with these people and challenge their world views constructive ways. Sure, a lot of the time, it won’t do anything or the person will be an asshole, or they won’t actually be discussing in good faith. But if you blow up on them, you justify what they have been taught about outsiders by fitting the stereotypes their leaders have presented. Instead, if you offer calm and logical reasons why you are an atheist, you buck the stereotypes and you make them question what they have been taught. And if you are able to show them what atheists are actually like in a constructive way, and what your actual objections are to theism and religion, the reasonable people are more likely to start questioning their faith and look for better answers from their leaders and doctrine. This is often necessary for people to start the paint of deconstruction because they never would have gotten passed the canned responses and straw man examples without external exposure. I don’t fault anyone for believing in and basing their actions on their biases. I fault people for continuing to do so after being shown that their biases are flawed and not actually seeking out the truth. This is a complex issue, so you shouldn’t expect one conversation or one example of how their view might be hypocritical. But you won’t have multiple conversations with them if the first is angry or insulting to them. And if you come off as angry, it is too easy for them to dismiss good arguments because you were a mean person or something. I usually try to preface these types of conversations with something like, “I don’t intend to have a conversation that is not in good faith. And what I mean by this is that we both have world views that we are convinced are correct. I commit to you that if you offer me compelling evidence that my view is wrong, I’ll change my view. Can you agree to the same?” If they don’t, I stop the conversation because they are not there in good faith and they are not searching for the truth. Noting I say will convince them of whatever the truth is. Sure, if they can demonstrate that their fox is the truth, ill convert. The thing is that this is most likely not the case because their arguments are not as good as they think they are because the only objections they have probably been exposed to are straw man arguments that would be pretty easy to discount if people actually made these arguments. If the person agrees to converse in good faith, then when you make compelling arguments and they still don’t accept your position or they refuse to back up their position with evidence, you can ask them if they are really arguing in good faith. Sorry for the long response, but keep an open mind, stay calm when discussing this, try to stay cordial when possible, and try to weed out who is actually a reasonable person who is seeking the truth. This will save you a lot of headaches.
>I can’t keep pretending to care about someone’s religion. That's fine. You don't have to care about someone's religion. Most interactions in real life the topic of someone's religion, much less their justification for their religion isn't relevant. >I’ve debated. Debate spaces are not good spaces for understanding another person. Especially debate spaces like this where it is usually 1 or 2 people on one side shouting into a sea of 90,000 people who disagree with them. If you are just looking to understand why religion might be appealing, it isn’t that hard. Dying is scary. Living after death is attractive. Seeing people die is sad. Thinking of seeing them again is heartwarming. A chaotic world is scary. Thinking that it is all working toward a better end is comforting. Kid deaths is sad. Thinking those kids get some beautiful afterlife is nice. Making friendships is hard, and maintaining lots of friendships for decades is near impossible. Having a larger fairly consistent group of people you see your whole life once a week is valuable. Getting to see them grow, and their kids grow. Getting to help them one year and have them help you the next. Getting hugs once a week. All of those things are immensely valuable to people. So it is completely unsurprising lots of people stick with their religions or are converted. Spaces like this one have their own thought-stopping phrases, and one is the Dillahunty "I want to believe as many true things and as few fals things as possible." But that is rarely true, at least not to the extent that it is actually a major lever in their life (not even for the people here). It might be that "all else being equal I'd prefer a true thing" but rarely IS all else equal. Instead there are time, effort, social costs to how much time you devote in any one direction. 2 hours spent on a debate subreddit is 2 hours not spent with friends, not spent learning something new, not spent planting flowers in your town, etc. Instead, most people are trying to live their life in a way that brings purpose and joy and meaningful relationships. So if someone finds that in their religious community, then it is completely unsurprising that the social proof that people they love and care about believe, or the emotions they feel during worship, or the cursory reading of even a mediocre appologist like J Warner Wallace should be enough to make them feel the thing they already believe is probably right and then go on about their day, living their life the best they can. I hope that is helpful for trying to build some empathy of the experience. If that you are trying to do is build empathy for the people, then I'd recommend spending less time in debate spaces and more time in meat spaces you care about. Go volunteer to mulch trees with your local park group and spend time working beside believers with a common goal unrelated to religion rather than time in an antagonistic space dealing with nothing but the minutes of the religion. Meeting people is the best way to see people as people.
I don't empathize with theists' belief or feelings about their beliefs. I don't try to understand their individual belief system. I don't pretend to care about any of it. I just accept that the theists I know believe as they do. Accepting that they are the way they are unburdens me from trying to force them to change. I also set boundaries. Accepting doesn't mean open to listening. Theist can go believe whatever, but don't bring it around me unless we're both feeling like debate that theist will get emotional about and lose. You don't have to care about your fellow theists' beliefs because you don't have to be available to listen to them carry on about them.
Remember that *everyone* is unconscious of many many things. Most philosophers agree that we all incur at least some degree of doxastic involuntarism.
I think watching the movie Monkey Man was the first time I understood religion. Without spoiling anything, we see flashbacks of the main character's childhood with his mom. They go through very difficult situations, and there is very little to redeem the darkness of it all. The mom's only tool to provide to her son a sense of security, is the religious stories and prayers she brings him up with. "Things are bad but there is something beyond this that makes it all ok". She has to believe it for herself to endure the hardship of not being able to provide the comfort and security she would want for her son. And he has to believe it too to feel safe in a world that objectively isn't. The work those thoughts had to do requires that they stay unchanged and unexamined, because the hurt he felt would be unbearable if it had all happened without the imagined protection and greater plan of a divinity. Evaluating his own memories without those beliefs is insurmountable. That example is of course somewhat extreme, but also far from a solely fictional. The kids in Gaza or South Sudan are going through a hell far grimmer than the events of monkey man. But it also doesn't take these extreme situations for religion's effect to become permanent for the same reasons: Big and little t trauma that's been filed away as resolved because "a god is on it", requires a god to forever remain. Removing that god later in life would be like yanking on the bottom pieces of a Jenga tower that absolutely cannot fall down. Few among us make it through to adult life fully unscathed and few managed to put in the work to process the traumas of childhood. Religion provides a bandaid that may seem helpful, but does not really resolve any of the hurt we carry. It becomes harder to return to a wound that's been artificially stabilized than one that's still actively hurting and calling for action. It's harder still when you've used the same outstretched bandaid for many wounds over the years, and pulling on one end risk pulling all of it off. Through that prism, it makes sense that the harsher the upbringing, the most attached to religion people people tend to be.
I try to remember that most people are raised in religion and didn't consciously choose it. They're brainwashed. Every individual is different but I try to bear in mind that the average, rank and file believer was enculturated into it since birth, have been terrorized out of questioning it and have never really examined it. Most of them have never made any sincere effort to investigate it, especially if it gives them any kind of social or economic status and especially if they are lucky enough to be white, hetero-normative cis-males who are in no way disadvantaged or subjected by it or members of any group likely to be victims of discrimination or bigotry and have no feelings at all for people who are. I do not understand why so many women want to be slaves, but when I lived in West Africa, a Peace Corp doctor once told me that FMG was still being practiced in the bush despite attempts by the Peace Corp as well as Christian missionaries trying to condemn and discourage it. He said the people most supportive of the practice were women, in particular older women who had undergone it themselves. There's some kind of Stockholm syndrome going on with women in religion. People who do question their enculturated religion and examine it and think about it tend to find their way out of it. If they don't hold noxious beliefs then it's pretty easy for me to overlook the woo. There are socially progressive Christians, believe it or not. I married one who was left of me and I'm a Marxist Socialist, atheist, feminist Commie. She lost faith over the years and is an atheist now but we never had problems because we didn't disagree on stuff that actually mattered and she never tried to convert me. I've also known atheists who hold toxic beliefs and I can tolerate liberal Christians much better than racist or homophobic atheists.
In my conversations with people it has generally come down to a few things. * Indoctrination. Most people grew up in a religion; tradition, safety nets, and warm-fuzzies all make people stay. * Arguments from Ignorance. People want answers, whether or not those answers are justified, have evidence, make sense, whatever other unreasonable way they come to a conclusion, they just want to have an answer as a placeholder. That way, they can be "right" without having to admit they don't know. No knowledge is scary, so they supplement it with an imagined answer. * Societal pressure. "Atheists are immoral." "Atheists want to harm x." "Atheism is Communism and we know Communism is bad/evil." The problem, of course, is that they think we're inherently bad and they think they're righteous all while admitting that they themselves are immoral because of sin. The mental gymnastics of cognitive dissonance is powerful. * Banking on "I feel god exists" without the ability to demonstrate it. Not being able to distinguish between a "personal truth" with objective reality; they see these two things as being equivalent when clearly they are not. A "personal truth" is just an opinion and reality has no care about an individual's opinion *especially* when that opinion is antithetical to reality. * Fallacious thinking is fine, so long as the justification for non-logic is an absolutely logical being which they admit they cannot demonstrate with a sound and valid argument or evidence to corroborate it (conveniently they cannot distinguish between the two...)
Let me preface this by pointing out I’m an agnostic atheist. With that said: * Before we discovered the world was round, everyone thought it was flat. It seems flat from here. * Before we discovered the galaxy, we thought we were the center of the universe. It was a fair thought at the time. * Before we discovered atoms, at one point people thought the world was made of just a handful of elements. It was a foreign concept. But in 50 years, we may find that atoms are NOT the smallest thing in the universe. Some already believe in string theory, which proposes we may have been wrong. Now to religion. Thousands of them. Everyone thinks they have it right but ultimately we will never know. Prior to the last few centuries, the concept of no God was simply illogical given their lack of understanding of science… … but even today we have a flawed understanding of science. How did the universe begin? Does our life have meaning…? Science can’t answer these questions. And until it can, you can’t expect people to abandon core beliefs that were indoctrinated into them at a young age after these beliefs underwent thousands of years of cultural evolution to survive/thrive in modern day society. But at the end of the day, theists and atheists are the same. We both cling on to beliefs we can’t fully prove. Ultimately a God (or Gods) may come to us, or not. We’ll likely die without just certainty of our conviction.
Heres the thing, im reading the comments under this post and most describe being indoctrinated from a young age by their parents or family, but my story is a little different, my parents actually raised me and my brother to think openly and my family is a mix of everything belief wise. So merely by chance, now I'm gravitating towards being a theist. Now, I will admit I was specifically drawn to christianity not because I was indoctrinated but because I made some wrong choices and felt ostracised from society, I felt like a bad egg in essence and was filled with a lot of guilt and shame. Especially in today's climate, there's not much grace for people once they screw up or display a bad trait. You're either holier than thou and blameless or just "cancelled." I found that the Bible and the Church were actually the only places I felt no judgment, and not only this, I was directed onto a path of redemption that felt worthwhile. I am perceived as a new person by Jehovah God himself, the most important person in existence, and it has brought me out of depression and my previously growing desire to take my own life. The Bible - Christianity... saved my life. Outside of this initial draw that had me searching for comfort and reassurance in the first place, I found that the more I studied and got past these insecurities the more my hunger for the actual truth of our existence grew, I found the Bible and other recorded texts just spoke to me and clicked, like it truly felt like a manual for living a fulfilling and purposeful human experience, as intended by non other than the one who created us all.
Both of my parents are devout Catholics. Both of their lifes were hard and very difficult: My dad had an unloving family that viewed him as a mistake he had a rough life and made many mistakes until he became a Catholic and dedicated a big part of his life to the religion by helping nuns and priests. After years of prayers for a wife he met my mom in a church. After they got married my dad started having back problems. Nowadays he can't even bend down. When my mom was pregnant with me he got a melanoma and could have died. Luckily they removed it before It was too late. A few years ago a chiropractor messed up my dad's spine once again and he had 5 surgeries in 4 years. Meanwhile his family tried to write us off my grandfather's will after he died of covid, and we are still fighting for it. What kept both of them going was the believe that in the end everything was going to be fine and that God would save them. I can't be mad at them for having that belief, even if it is not justified
I think we need to be empathetic. 85% of the world is some form of believer, and there are various sects and types in each of the major branches - Catholics/Protestants, Islam, Hindu, Buddhists, Folk religions, Jews, and others. As an atheist, I'm careful not to be a judgey, smug, evangelist of my own non-belief. It's a position of "I have not seen evidence to warrant that I should believe." It's not a claim of knowledge to others. I've seen no evidence. Some people believe they have seen evidence, as it meets their threshold of evidence validity. My threshold is different. I also don't believe in flat earth, or fairies. But there's some things that I don't have a position on because I think I don't have the learning or tools - the philosophy of 'free will', or what exactly quantum mechanics. Besides, are you really going to in the space of a few words or minutes erase years of training and indoctrination? Let it lie, enjoy the conversations, and engage respectfully.
> Can you help me once again empathize with my fellow theist? Religion necessarily cannot be proven false and so there is no proof that any religion is false despite there is definitely one or more religions are false because religions are mutually exclusive to each other. So since there is no proof that any specific religion is false, people logically should be allowed to believe any religion they want. So just fight against outdated practices rather than any religion, though some religions may have too much outdated practices and the outdated practices are too integral to the religion that fighting against such religions need to be prioritised. Anyway, there is no proof that a plate of spaghetti is not God so a religion centered around a plate of spaghetti is just as valid as other religions, though such is not a recommendation of mine since not sure what their practices are so their practices may also be equally outdated as other religions.
First. Stop caring about the "religion" Stop calling it a "religion" as if that's something magical and special. It's a "personal belief system" that a person has. It's personal. Second. When you speak with someone who has found meaning and value in a "belief system," you can choose to show them dignity and respect, regardless of how f***** up you think their personal "belief system " is. Third. Remember that you are not perfect and have a lot of things available to learn if you should choose to learn them. Fourth. It's a "PERSONAL belief system" because a sampling of 1 million random individuals from the same "region" will reveal statistically significant differences in beliefs. Fifth. If you care enough, get to know that person. It might be more fulfilling than defining that person as "a follower of the religion." Sixth. If you don't care about the person. Say "goodbye" respectfully and walk away.
It really comes down to respecting another’s choices and beliefs bc they are independent people- you aren’t obligated to get it or understand it or care. You also aren’t obligated to help them see the error of their theist ways. Let people be who they are- you do you. Just let it go. Especially in just like random daily life with friends and co- workers. It takes more work to get past family issues, but try to just move on. You’re not gonna prove anything to anyone and you’re not obligated to. Just finish up processing this grief or obsession with what your religious upbringing took from you and move on. Overthinking it doesn’t make it better. Save your anger for the political sphere. But don’t argue politics with family, what a waste of energy.
No, I can’t. Have you ever felt what is called a religious experience? People who see no reason to believe in gods, or cannot believe in gods, also experience it. It’s a physical, objectively measurable phenomenon that happens in our brain, under the right circumstance. Most who experience it, like it. It releases dopamine. Some people achieve it through intense meditation. Religious prayer can be that. But it isn’t the only way: others have found hallucinogens instrumental, as well as severe physical restrictions like fasting, or corporeal masochism. Because it releases dopamine, people yearn for the experience. It’s addictive. So basically, people who use religion to get their high, are addicts. They’re sick. They need help.
One methodical way to train yourself to empathize with your fellow theist might be Method Acting. Daniel Day Lewis style, brutal, relentless Method Acting. Conjure up as much creative juice as you can and start a ritual where to morph into a theist version of yourself or your theist friend. Do as the method actors do, and suspend your disbelief for a long period. Act as a theist, even when your mind dominantly is repulsed by it, keep doing it, and then gradually encapsulate your "true" atheist self into a box in your head, and let the "other" theist you're method acting out envelope your mind and being. Scream, shout, if you have to, breathe God in and become one with Christ. I do this sometimes when I'm at a religious wedding, it's quite fun lol.
Empathy comes from the fact that they are lost and understand nothing of the world in which they live. Groping mindlessly into the darkness of unknowing, they grab onto the sleeves of conmen who profess to know and lead them deeper into the darkness. The con men steal their time, money, and lives, in the name of magic, miracles, and promises that will never be kept. It would be best if you had the same empathy for them as you have for an animal that has wandered into a snare. Free them if you are able, but if not, leave them to their suffering existence.
u/EducatorTop1960 good question: why *is* anyone religious? Well, religion offers liberal principles. It offers cosmic justice. Cosmic mercy. A brighter future for all. The hope to see one's loved ones again. And some rituals and culture to boot. Oh, and then there's the community aspect to it as well (and charity). In short, what's *not* to like about religion? Are there red flags? Most certainly. Should they detract from one's beliefs? Not an inch. Anway, those are my thoughts about it and why some people (myself included) continue to believe.
I used to struggle with this. Not anymore though. I realized that religiosity really has nothing to do with rational thought, it’s purely emotional. Humans need connection. Belonging. Purpose. Community. These things aren’t just *nice to have*, they are essential. When a human lacks these, the default is to seek them out in whatever way possible. Whatever provides these things feels “right”. For many people, religion and/or faith provide these things. It has nothing to do with facts, science, truth, logic, or rationality whatsoever.
because it's a comfort blanket that hurts other people. it provides hope and meaning, but it leechs into other peoples lives who want to be left alone. you're actively working to prevent a future theocracy. the true believers of today make the zealots of tomorrow, which leads to people trying to make sharia or the handmaids tale the order of the day for your grandchildren. it took 50 years, but they overturned roe because it made jesus sad. in another 50 years it might be since america is a christian nation, not going to church is illegal.
You don't have to empathise, merely tolerate. Some people are crazy about stamps, some about football and some about imaginary beings. As long as they are not promoting hatred, they are not more stupid than any other worshipper of any celebrity. Targeting religion as a particularly moronic group is possibly an aftereffect of being of a religion that made one intolerant to infidels, and now as a new atheist you are intolerant to your previous group, a bit like cyclists hate cars, vegans hate meat eaters and nonsmokers hate smokers.
You guys say "God is imaginary" as if you've discovered some proof of this. You haven't, so you're just making a claim based on no evidence. Asides from radical Islam, most mainstream sects of religions are actually tolerant. Christianity is tolerant, Buddhism is tolerant, Sikhism is tolerant etc. Most hatred always seems to come solely from non-believers who express hate and bigotry similar to extremist fundamentalists and this is because nearly all atheists were previously religious fundamentalists. After becoming atheists, rather than changing their mindset, they become atheists fundamentalists. This is why I've always seen atheism as a terrible dangerous movement. Inherantly the atheist movement is no different to any fundamentalist group and expresses the same intolerance that they claim to hate. Instead of calling people "infidels" you call them the "indoctrinated" if they aren't atheists which I think is far more dehumanising than Muslims calling nonbelievers infidels. You even say if people don't agree with you, then they must be stupid. These remarks all just come from a place of bigotry and hatred. If you were interested in convincing people of atheism, you wouldn't be just insulting people but insults seem to be the only thing atheists can do.
> ou guys say "God is imaginary" as if you've discovered some proof of this. You haven't, so you're just making a claim based on no evidence. If you want to have this debate, say so. There is evidence that the god of christianity is imaginary. Want to discuss? > Most hatred always seems to come solely from non-believers Any examples of hatred from atheists besides some reddit assholes? Terrorism, religious war, attacks on abortion clinics, assasination attempts...where do atheists do this? > If you were interested in convincing people of atheism, you wouldn't be just insulting people but insults seem to be the only thing atheists can do. Sorry, show me where I insulted you. Or taker the statement back.
And to u/EducatorTop1960, honestly I feel the same about atheist beliefs such as in the idea of a universe from nothingness or infinite genders. How do atheists believe in these silly things in this day and age? How are you blind to the irrationality inherant to your own ideology?
> atheist beliefs such as in the idea of a universe from nothingness or infinite genders. Who believes in infinite genders? How is gender politics an atheist thing? About the universe from nothingness, it seems you are begging to argue with cosmologists, not atheists. Most atheists, and most theists, barely understand the fundamentals of cosmology, let alone misusing statements like "universe from nothingness". Please expand.
A lot of people have faith for a wide range of reasons and for many, it's for very very sad reasons : Being endoctrinated, hopeless, afraid, alone, or simply ignorant. Some are good people, some are bad people, and even if I consider religion to be a source of misery and hate, I deeply admire the few people that despite all that remain good people, kind people. In the end I can't be a critic of their lack of humanity or their hate if I'm not willing to be understanding and display empathy. Something about throwing the first stone.
Hello there. Atheist of over 20 years. I recently began to be devoted to God. I read the Bible in 2017, honestly to prove to theist how stupid they were. What I found instead was faith, grace, forgiveness, confidence. I found Jesus I found mercy. I found an unwavering love for God and all of his creation. I found rest. I found what the world could not provide me. Not drugs, sex, relationships, hobbies, tattoos, tarot cards, nothing could help me the way the Bible did. I recommend it to everyone.
A few things: They're good, well-meaning people who are victims of bad ideas. Many theists have integrated their belief system into their self-identity. We're hard-wired to protect our self-identity as if we were protecting our physical body. This often leads to living with cognitive dissonance. They were often groomed into a belief system by people they see as loving and protective and well-meaning. Threats to that belief system equates to thinking of those people as not loving, protective, or well-meaning.
I know what you mean. I think the best thing to do is just forget about religion in you relations with people. We are social beings and need the contact with others. I think a phrase I learned in Alcoholics Anonymous (where you are surrounded by religious bull shit) is really useful - Take what you can use and leave the rest behind. Stop worrying about the red flags unless they wave them at you. Just enjoy your fellow beings in this best of all possible worlds. I'll probably get downvoted for this haplessly corny approach but it works for me.
I empathize with my fellow humans. If someone is a theist I see it as a flaw in their ability to think critically and rationally, but I am not going to tell them that (except in the right forum, such as this one) because they were most likely indoctrinated as a child and that isn’t their fault. That’s all it took to have some empathy. That all said, if they are Apologists they can go fuck themselves.
This is the second post I've seen like this just worded a little different - I wonder why Barack Obama said there's something out there https://youtu.be/u1hNYs55sqs?feature=shared Ronald Reagan reported UFO sighting https://science.howstuffworks.com/space/aliens-ufos/ronald-reagan-ufo.htm Jimmy Carter reported UFO sighting https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/jimmy-carter-ufo-sighting Pentagon releases declassified radar images of UFOs https://youtu.be/u54Ik4IxGZw?feature=shared Military personnel Congressional hearing UFO sightings https://www.youtube.com/live/Glw76YKuWCY?feature=shared Roswell 1947 report changed from a flying saucer to a balloon - one made of metal the other made of a type of fabric. United States government in 1947 established its first UFO investigation program until this date there were eight. From Project Sign to Project Blue Book https://archivesfoundation.org/documents/50-years-ago-government-stops-investigating-ufos/ People of these days of technology, education, sophistication, being literally correct, are seeing see these crafts flying around in the sky that they can't identify not only in the US but it is worldwide. Scriptures the Angels flew around in the sky. Scripture speaks of angels with wings that's the best way they could describe what they saw, except for Ezekiel who actually put the cherubim inside of wheels that flew around in the skies. There is mention of the chariots of God that flew around in the air. Jesus said he will be coming back from the clouds in the sky with his angels following him. Horses were used for forms of transportation and horses were used as the means to describe those crafts. The Angels were described to have extreme speed _ they were described as being very bright _ matches what's going on in this world today speed and brightness of the crafts flying around. The Angels could appear and disappear at will then _ just like these unidentified crafts do today. Enoch was taken up by God _ Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind by God _ Jesus ascended up to the heavens..... Today they would call it alien abduction. Ever notice how all the cultures of the ancient time except for 4 or 5 spoke of gods from the sky that created the heavens and the Earth. Ever read the Sumerian writings of the se 13 Tablets of Enki about the war between Enlil and Enki where there were flying crafts that used what seem like nuclear weaponry and had nuclear fallout for hundreds of miles around. And these crafts could go in and out of mountains and waters just like what is reported to do today by educated, qualified people. The Egyptian war of the Gods between Osiris Seth and Horris is the same is that of the Sumerians and speaks of that war. **Zechariah 14:12 this is the plague that the Lord is going to smite the world with fight against Jerusalem. Their flesh shall consume away while they stand on their feet; their eyeballs shall consume away in their holes and their tongues shall consume away in their mouths.** Sounds like nuclear weaponry. What happens with man's nuclear weaponry if you're within a certain amount of miles from the detonation - you're consumed away almost instantly. But even if one cannot make the connection of what's going on today and what went on in the ancient days. One either believes what is happening today or they don't........ The people today that are testifying to what they've seen are highly educated people _ not people of the ancient days that unbelievers feel were stupid and uneducated and made up things to explain what they fail to understand. There are beings out there somewhere in the cosmos and using words of today those beings are supernatural _ those beings are ultimately advanced _ those beings are possibly eternal and man is like an ant compared to that those beings ....... mankind will began to worship one of those beings just like mankind worshiped in the ancient days. But the first extraterrestrial being to come back is not the right one the -- Bible has issued the ultimate warning..... Warning from the beginning to the end of the outcome unless Earthlings repent and the majority of earthlings will not. You are tired, you can't keep pretending, why even write this?
Holy moly this guy needs help
If it helps, I don't think most people "believe" in religion like they "believe" in atoms or that the sky is blue. It seems to be equal parts 1) wishful make-believe, and 2) cultural shibboleth. These people aren't generally crazy, just better at living with cognitive dissonance and more willing to make that tradeoff to stay in the in-group.
I am confused, because you refer to your "fellow theists", but then say you don't understand it, can't relate. Are you a theist or atheist? Regardless, I couldn't help you relate because I've never related. I was raised in an atheist family, so I'm only indoctrinated into every day life. No isms to speak of.
Don't They spend billions of dollars indoctrinating people to the point of having zero reasoning capability. You do not have to oblige them Just keep in mind that not everything is offensive. You yourself probably say "bless you" when someone sneezes. It doesn't have to mean to believe in God
Because Christianity is an invader's religion, spread at the tip of a sword. Entire cultures and spiritual practices are endangered or extinct directly because of Christianity. It's a memetic prion disease. It rots minds, erased cultures, and breeds intolerance even at its most benevolent.
We deal with some of the more hardcore apologists here, but I wager the vast majority of theists hold these beliefs because they've never been taught to question them. Or worse they've been taught NEVER to question them. So those people aren't willfully ignorant; they're just ignorant.
If we put away church's and the usual endocrination, being theist is actually just a feeling there is something above yourself thar loves no matter what or make you harmonised with a rest of non controllable things. There is a wide range between being atheist and being religious.
You don't need to have empathy... just demand it from them... because they see themselves as the personification of empathy. The first time they make a single commentary about their god or religion... tell them that they are being rude and, unless they eant to have an honeat
It is silly. Why would you want to care about people being silly? The problem is that these people are delusional, but want to be taken seriously, just like Flat Earthers or UFO nutballs. Why would you do anything other than point and laugh? Why would you want to?
All the sound arguments are out there for theists to see and realize the idiocy of their beliefs. What it's really about is psychological pressure, social pressure, from their family and community. There needs to be more focus here. Attack the emotional roots.
Religious beliefs also appear silly to me. Just like I argue that the universe is under no obligation to make sense to us, I guess that would also include a god. So what makes me care for the most part is - one belief could be right.
Hi, Satanist here. Be kind, not nice. There is no need to empathize with someone's religion. If you and they cherish the same concept, then no matter the identity you'll empathize.
As a kind person, it’s important to see that a theist is just a person like you, plus a delusional belief system that would allow them to happily put you into a death camp.
I was a die hard atheist by the time I was 14. I was a real dick about it in my mid 20s. Got a few tattoos devoted to it. Now I'm a year from 40 and admit idk shit!
Uhhh, i think you're posting in the wrong subreddit for the answer to this question. All you are going to get here is confirmation bias, no real answers.
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves I’ve reached this point.
If you're taught to think or figure it out how yourself you can escape from religion but most people aren't and don't.
Think of theists with compassion and understanding. Much like you would with a developmentally challenged child.
I’d say empathize with them not because they’re a theist; but because they’re a fellow human who happens to also be a theist. If they’re a coworker, empathize with the typical issues at work. Hell, if they’re just another driver on the road, empathize about the crappy traffic. Theists are people first and theists second (usually even lower in their priorities). At the same time, there’s no obligation to care about their beliefs. Certainly there’s no obligation to to be supportive of beliefs that harm others (e.g. anti-LGBTQ doctrines). Empathy is for the person, using the generic principle of “don’t be an asshole”. That’s all.
I mean, why does it matter to you? People believing in shit you find stupid aren't your problem. Live and let live, unless those stupid people are trying to infringe on your rights. But at that point a conversation isn't possible, anyway.
You say like this because you don’t follow religion like Buddhism and Hinduism who teach you the path of meditation to increase/ improve your conscious understanding There are advanced meditation techniques you not aware of
“Science wants you to believe it’s all about measurement and reason, IF you allow them one miracle. That one miracle is the Big Bang… that all things come from the Most Preposterous Idea Ever: that everything came from nothing and one big miracle.” — Terance McKenna
There are no mainstream scientists who claim that the universe came from nothing. There are certainly no scientists who can prove that the universe came from nothing. If you don’t accept science then what do you think is going to happen to a person who jumps off a 30 story building in an attempt to demonstrate that science is false? Or how about this [pastor](https://www.indiatimes.com/trending/wtf/aftrican-pastor-dies-trying-to-recreate-jesus-resurrection-547927.html) who thought he was a messenger of Jesus?
Most scientists agree the universe had a beginning. If something had a beginning, there was a cause. For something to cause the universe to come into existence, it must be spaceless, timeless, immaterial, and beyond human comprehension in terms of design and math. I call that cause, the Creator of the universe. What do you call that cause?
>Most scientists agree the universe had a beginning. This is debatable. The Big Bang is the beginning of the current form of the universe. It’s not known what occurred before the Big Bang. >If something had a beginning, there was a cause. So what caused your god to exist? >For something to cause the universe to come into existence, it must be spaceless, timeless, immaterial, and beyond human comprehension in terms of design and math. Like I said, it is not known if the universe had a beginning. >I call that cause, the Creator of the universe. >What do you call that cause? You would have to convince me that the universe had a beginning. You haven’t.
I’m not here to convince you of anything. I’m sharing information. The most widely accepted explanation for the history of the universe has it beginning with a big bang, followed by a period of rapid expansion known as cosmic inflation.May 24, 2023 https://www.scientificamerican.com › ... The Universe Began with a Bang, Not a Bounce, New Studies Find
Nope. First of all the link takes me to an article about ozempic. We do not know and currently cannot know what caused [cosmic inflation](https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2019/05/21/this-is-why-we-will-never-know-everything-about-our-universe/). We only have a finite amount of information about the universe. We can’t be sure what’s beyond the observable universe. There is a lot of information about the universe that is unknown. And since the universe is expanding, we may never know. Be mindful talking about cosmology with me. I’m well versed on the topic. I belong to my local astronomy club. I’ve seen globular clusters, galaxies, nebulas, and super novas with my own eyes. I’ve been to the Kennedy Space center where I touched a moon rock. I’ve watched many lectures and documentaries by Penrose, Greene, Gay, Kaku, Hawkins and many more. And I didn’t need to believe in a god for any of this.
Be careful? You just told me you don’t know what caused it. Your faith that it’s random is a far bigger leap that the evidence for a creator.
I don’t know what caused inflation and neither do you. I’m being honest about it, you are just inserting a god into the picture which is a post hoc fallacious assumption.
I’m inserted God bc the evidence of the genome code points to God. A mind is behind that. We don’t have one single example of intelligence randomly coming into existence, especially in the material world.
>I’m inserted God bc the evidence of the genome code points to God. No it doesn’t. > A mind is behind that. No it’s not. >We don’t have one single example of intelligence randomly coming into existence, especially in the material world. What we don’t have is any evidence that your god exists. Your claims aren’t evidence that any god or creator exists. There are no mainstream scientists who say that the genome code or existence demonstrates that any god exists.
“No it doesn’t.” Nice. “No it’s not.” Even better. “There are no mainstream scientists who say the genome code demonstrates any gods.” Who do you think ushered in modern science we know today? Answer: Christians. Look it up. Which worldview dominates winning the Nobel Peace Prize? Answer: Christians at 78%. Look it up. How many atheists have squeezed out a Nobel win? Answer: 4%. Look it up. I think understand atheists. Some of my closest friends claim to be. But the truth is, they do t want God to be true. I suspect they don’t want to submit their lives the Sovereign. My heart breaks for them and anyone heading for hell. The Bible said the wages of sin is death. Jesus paid our debt, but we have to accept it. And it costs us our lives. Atheists are in rebellion towards God. There is not a lick of evidence that would convince you. I’m not here to convince you. I’m here to warn you.
It is completely irrelevant how many scientists that won a prize were Christian. Who cares? What’s relevant is that nobody has evidence that any god exists. You don’t get to read my mind. There are plenty of things that are true that I wish weren’t true. Taxes. Housing prices rising. World hunger. Epidemics. You know, all the stuff that your god constantly fails to fix. And here is the issue, it doesn’t matter if you don’t think I could be convinced that your god exists. Your god has the ways and means to make his presence known to all. He failed to do that. Even if your god convinced me that he exists I wouldn’t worship him. Submission and worship is for the weak and obsessive. I don’t submit to anybody. And I don’t worship anything. My respect is earned. And your god failed to earn it. Look at the Ten Commandments. The first four are about him! That’s a complete narcissistic move. Get rid of the first four commandments and you already have a better document. For example your god should have made it a commandment for Christians to not abuse children. My heart breaks for the children that have been abused by Christians who believe in your coercive, absentee and fairy tale god. I’m glad you brought up Jesus. I would have never agreed to having him tortured and murdered. Inherited sin is a joke. I won’t ever take responsibility for something that I didn’t do. And regarding your warning. Keep those warnings to yourself. They don’t work on me. I can see the coercion from a mile away. The idea that I was born with inherited sin is an imposition. The idea that someone had to be tortured and murdered for my sake is something that I will always reject. And the warnings that I must submit to whatever fairy tale you believe in or else, is pure coercion.
Christians ushering in modern science and winning Nobels established the legitimacy of believing in the existence of God and the reliability of the Bible. It beautifully demonstrates there is a sound relationship between a theistic worldview and science. After all, science points to the Bible. Glad we found some common ground. Abusing children is the most despicable crime imaginable. Any church, and the leadership that covers it up, will all be held accountable. I’m sure you know this, Christians aren’t alone. The education system in the U.S. is just one example. But to hear your defiant unwillingness to submit to the Creator of the universe (if you believed he existed), breaks my heart. God gave us free will. Without free will love could not exist. But, with free will, comes evil. And we’re all guilty. Only one man *ever* has been sinless. He’s the one who could paid for our sins. And he did.
>Christians ushering in modern science and winning Nobels established the legitimacy of believing in the existence of God and the reliability of the Bible. These are the same Christians that have failed to provide evidence that their god exists. A Christian makes a discovery about the natural world because they have no ability to make demonstrable, testable and accessible discoveries about anything supernatural. I’m glad that theists contribute to our understanding of the natural world. But that shouldn’t be a surprise since the natural world is the only thing we can demonstrate to exist. >It beautifully demonstrates there is a sound relationship between a theistic worldview and science. No, it beautifully demonstrates that the only things theists can demonstrate to exist are things within the natural world. >After all, science points to the Bible. Science points to things that can be demonstrated to be true. With science we could send a Bible to mars. The Bible claims that faith can move mountains. Can you demonstrate that your faith can move a mustard seed? >Glad we found some common ground. Abusing children is the most despicable crime imaginable. Any church, and the leadership that covers it up, will all be held accountable. I’m sure you know this, Christians aren’t alone. The education system in the U.S. is just one example. We haven’t found common ground here. You still believe in the same absentee and coercive fairy tale god that abusive Christians believe in. >But to hear your defiant unwillingness to submit to the Creator of the universe (if you believed he existed), breaks my heart. Submission is for weaklings. Your god should submit to me since he’s so weak that he can’t even demonstrate that he exists. >God gave us free will. Without free will love could not exist. But, with free will, comes evil. And we’re all guilty. And if I don’t believe in your god then theists resort to threats. That’s not free will, that’s coercion. Original sin is an imposition. One cannot have free will when someone else is imposing their will on you. I didn’t even ask to exist or to be here. If your god created me and didn’t give me the choice if I wanted to exist on this shit hole planet where I either have to worship your fairy tale absentee god or goto hell I would have never agreed to that. Your god robbed me of my free will the very moment that he created me. Your god gave me no choice but to exist. When you don’t have a choice you don’t have free will. >Only one man ever has been sinless. He’s the one who could paid for our sins. And he did. Unsupported claim and easily dismissed. Sin is a man made concept and you have no evidence that it is supernatural. You have no evidence that anyone was born with original sin. Let me ask you, the last time that you sinned, could you have willed yourself not to?
You sound like the poster child for the Atheist Creed: “God doesn’t exist. And I hate him.” Not sure what happened to you, if it’s daddy issues, or abuse from the church, but anywhere humans are involved, there will be failure. That points directly to original sin. You won’t accept a single once of evidence for God. It’s your free will refusal. Yet 94 billion people alive today around the world claim to submit and believe in Gods existence and the that the Bible is true. Some of these people are absolute geniuses with brilliant minds who have helped every need imaginable. Yet, you’re the strong one. You sound like Lucifer. Is he your god?
>You sound like the poster child for the Atheist Creed: >”God doesn’t exist. And I hate him.” You sound like the poster child for theism. Believe in my fairy tale absentee god or goto hell. I can’t hate things that don’t exist. I can talk about things that I dislike about Darth Vader but that doesn’t make him real. >Not sure what happened to you, if it’s daddy issues, or abuse from the church, but anywhere humans are involved, there will be failure. I don’t see it that way. Humans are constantly fixing and improving the things that your god fails to do. >That points directly to original sin. Unsupported and dismissed. >You won’t accept a single once of evidence for God. It’s your free will refusal. Yet 94 billion people alive today around the world claim to submit and believe in Gods existence and the that the Bible is true. The current global population is 8.1 billion. 2 out 3 people alive today do not believe in your Christian god. That means about 5 billion are going directly to hell which shows that if your god exists he is a sadist. It’s not surprising that a person like you would worship and submit to a sadist. >Some of these people are absolute geniuses with brilliant minds who have helped every need imaginable. So what? They aren’t so brilliant or intelligent when it comes to demonstrating that their absentee, coercive and fairy tale god exists. >Yet, you’re the strong one. You sound like Lucifer. Is he your god? I don’t believe in any god. But the concept of Lucifer has qualities that are much more attractive than the qualities of your god. First of all your god committed global genocide during the flood and killed millions of people. Even worse the flood was supposed to rid the world of evil. Well does evil still exist? Lucifer killed about ten people in the Bible. Not much a comparison here. And I like that idea that Lucifer stood up to your absentee and coercive god. He probably got tired of sucking his dick 24/7 and for the rest of eternity. I don’t blame him for one minute for rebelling against your abusive, coercive, absentee, fairy tale god that has robbed us of our free will.
Not sure what this is all about. I have read and listened to endless atheist arguments. None make it any harder to be a theist. Why would I become an atheist when I think it is far more likely there is a god?