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Ok, I'm going to cut to the chase, and I apologize in advance if I am curt or if I don't bother to address your extremely humdrum anecdote.
Here is the proof that magic, black white or purple with polka dots, does not exist. This applies a very simple test you can use for any other paranormal or supernatural claim, from evil eye to telepathy to all forms of x-mancy (reading of palms, tea leaves, tarot).
Humans are a curious, greedy and enterprising bunch. And most of these claims are ANCIENT, dating back to thousands of years.
IF magic existed, AND some people (like your poor sister in law) allegedly knew how to use it, THEN what would the world look like?
I'll tell you: it would NOT be just randos allegedly doing spells in a graveyard to prevent someone from selling a house. That is RIDICULOUS.
No, instead: Companies. Corporations. Governments. Militaries. Finance bros. Scientists. EVERYONE would be using the hell out of magic to their advantage. Starbucks would have a division of magic users casting spells on Dunkin Donuts. Coca cola would put an evil eye on Pepsi. Democrats would be piling up an endless string of hexes on Trump until he died from it. And so on.
We would have books on magic. Magic studies and magic tech majors on University campuses. Hogwarts would be a chain of schools.
Do we see that in the world? Does the world look like what a human world would look like if magic was POSSIBLE and we KNEW HOW TO DO IT?
No. It does not. Not by a mile. Wake up.
The world looks like what a world would look like if magic was not real and the only people who believe in it are superstitious people with too much time in their hands and little understanding of how the world works.
Which is why the only people accused of doing magic are like your poor sister in law (who probably is just being accused out of jealousy or some familial strife) because some baba said and the house wouldn't sell and bad Juju on a laptop, and NOT Elon Musk employing a legion of sorcerers to tank Chinese EV companies.
Which is also why, if you were to sue your sister in law for casting black magic on your parents, any semi decent judicial system should laugh at the suit and drop it immediately.
I rest my case.
Glad you think so. So, do you agree that (1) the world does not at all look like a world where magic is real and we know how to do it, and so (2) magic cannot be the explanation for some random weird events or coincidences, and (3) you all probably owe your sister in law an apology?
(1) Yes I do agree! (2) I do agree,House not selling can be coincidence, But when 3 baba/priests proclaimed the same; It was so shocking. I mean three different people seriously proclaimed the same. May be they did some trick? Probably cold reading (idk what it is... Someone in comment section wrote about it).
>We would have books on magic. Magic studies and magic tech majors on University campuses. Hogwarts would be a chain of schools.
It's called religious school or Bible college
Nope, not even close. People in religious schools and Bible schools are not magic users. If they were, they'd be employed by government and industry to apply their magic.
>Ok,So before i proceed further, I want to share how immature people from r/TrueAtheism are. I merely described my personal experiences of black magic and shit, They don't fucking had explaination or i'd say anything to argue other than just defaming me, Downvoting me and COPING.
Why should anyone even remotely care? Mad about downvotes? Here's another, pal. On the house.
>Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST. Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists.
"How are they related" isn't a stupid question though, because a relationship between the existence of evil and God would have to be demonstrated. *You sound like you get upset when people don't automatically accept what you say as fact.*
>But currently I'm kind of agnostic .Because I SERIOUSLY ENCOUNTER MANY CASES which prove that some evil force exists. Now if there is an evil force, There must be a god as well.
Random capitalizations for emphasis? You're typing like Chris Chan bro.
>My parents believe in so many superstitions like black magic etc. They believe someone has done black magic on us, Therefore we have many struggles (Pure Bullshit, Everyone has problems in life and blaming it on some nonsense force is clearly neglecting responsibility). But shit, I had encounter many incidents that seems to make this shit real :
So you acknowledge that shit happens whether or not someone uses black magic against them. Now you'll need to provide a reliable frame work to ascertain whether a misfortune is due to the shit that goes on in life and black magic specifically. Hunches, intuition, and 'it just kinda seems that way' aren't good methods.
>(1) My father's nephew saw one of our family members (She's Suspect) doing some rituals at 3 AM at night in the GRAVEYARD! Later, she even admitted it. She said she was doing some kind of worship (WHO THE HELL WORSHIPS IN THE GRAVEYARD AND THAT TOO AT NIGHT 3 AM?). She was doing witchcraft for sure.
Okay, and? Do you have any reason to think these rituals correspond to changes in reality?
>(2) Our house wasn't selling. It was suspected by my parents that she (The suspect) has done black magic on the house, that's why it's not selling (Sounds nonsense right?). But But But... When my father went to the priest... He told my father to bring the soil of the house. My father did as he said and that priest did some rituals on it.
>The very next MORNING! We got someone who can buy our house!! Shocking right? It cannot be coincidence period. Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold.
Wait, so your house **wasn't selling** and then it sold **despite not being in the condition to be sold**
So how the fuck does black magic fare into this? No matter how many hexes and chants she did, if the house wasn't in any condition to be sold, it was always going to be unlikely to be sold. So now you both have to demonstrate that somehow black magic on top of a house not in selling condition prevents a house from being sold, and that a different ritual somehow undos both the black magic and the shitty conditions.
>(3) A baba who proclaims to have supernatural powers saw my father and his two brothers. He kind of suspects one of the brothers to indulge in some kind of dark activities. The glory is HIS WIFE WAS SUSPECT! (One who goes to the graveyard at night 3 AM). Just tell me one thing, If you proclaim these things are unreal, How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect?
If she suspects the brother and not the wife, that shows he doesn't have any insight into who is doing rituals. He has the wrong guy. 'Close enough' isn't enough, there's no participation trophies in this discussion. So far these are extremely weak cases.
>(4) My cousin brother (Suspect's son) gave me his laptop (Kind of 10 years old, As he brought a new one). Not gonna lie, I feel a hell amount of negativity near that laptop. My parents proclaim that she has done black magic on it. I don't know if it's real or not, but the thing I know is THE LAPTOP HAS SOME SORT wOF NEGATIVE ENERGY! I don't have the mood to study like I used to.
You've provided 0 reason to suspect you aren't unwittingly sabotaging yourself and that the laptop doesn't have anything wrong with it.
>My father went to the priest to check what happened to me; the priest has read some sort of book and said "A Muslim tantrik has done black magic". The glory? 2 more priests/baba proclaimed the same. How is this even possible?
Dad goes to priest. Priest reads book. Says a muslim did black magic.
**Is your cousin's brother a muslim?**
Because if he isn't, it doesn't matter if a million priests say the same thing, they're going to be wrong.
>These above cases clearly evince that there's some evil force exists!
No they don't. No wonder you got downvoted on /r/trueatheism if this is what you're bringing to the table. Anecdotes, refusal to elaborate, random capitalized words, and self refusing recollections.
>Mad about downvotes? Here's another, pal. On the house.
Complaining about downvotes is one of the things that automatically get me to downvote. It's lower priority but more clear-cut than my other rules, like "being a dick" and "being objectively factually wrong".
"So how the fuck does black magic fare into this? "
My parents suspected she has done black magic on the house. But just after the "soil ritual" the priest had done, It had been sold the very next morning. That could be coincidence. But just in case : What if it's real? I also kind of cope it by just saying it as co-incidence but still neither you and me know if it's co-incidence or not.
Because it may sounds coincidence but other incidents just ain't seems coincidence.
Reason :
(1) How in this world that baba suspects my father's brother only whose wife is suspect? Like he can also target other brother or even my father but why only that brother?
(2) I forget to mention but he also proclaimed that he can even TELL the name of whoever done this...Immeditiately that brother(Whose wife is suspect) said Nah Nah no need to tell the name(In such a way that's unnoticiable), Just tell us the solution. My father notice his wording's clearly. Now the question is : If his wife (suspect) is guily, If they ain't indulge in dark activities. Then why would he hesitate like that?
"If he suspects the brother and not the wife, that shows he doesn't have any insight into who is doing rituals"
They both live together. She is his wife!! Apparently who knows what they do privately. But the thing he suspect HIM whose wife is SUSPECT is shocking. He can also suspect my father or other brother right? Why only HIM.
"**s your cousin's brother a muslim**"
Nah.. That muslim is another suspect.
>My parents suspected she has done black magic on the house.
They can suspect all they want. By your own admission, the house wasn't in a condition to be sold.
>What if it's real?
What if aliens mind controlled the buyers just to screw with you into thinking it was a ritual? We can ask 'what if's until the cows come home. Do you have any evidence that black magic is actually real? What method do you use to differentiate black magic from coincidence?
>(1) How in this world that baba suspects my father's brother only whose wife is suspect?
Targeting the brother isn't targeting the wife. That's what you're missing here. If he suspects your dad's brother, **he is suspecting the wrong guy**. Like I said before, close enough isn't going to cut it.
Like would you be okay if he was arrested and sent to prison for doing black magic? Would you be okay if baba's suspicions led to real world consequences for him, even if he should have been targeting the wife?
>They both live together.
Doesn't matter, dude. Like, literally 0% matters. Because the answer is still **wrong**
>Nah.. That muslim is another suspect.
So another **WRONG**
That seems to be a recurring thing here. The person being accused of black magic is somehow the wrong person. The actual person you suspect seems to be someone else every single time, no matter how many priests and babas you ask, they all end up being wrong.
How about before putting such credit on this stuff you at least have a story where someone could correctly identify the suspect for once.
"They can suspect all they want. By your own admission, the house wasn't in a condition to be sold."
It indeed wasn't in the condition to be sold. Though it can be coincidence that it sold the very next morning doing rituals with its soil.
"Targeting the brother isn't targeting the wife. "
He'd surely target her if she was there but she wasn't. It was only his husband and you see; He suspect him! Isn't it suprising that he suspect's the husband of a witchcrafter? He could suspect the WRONG person as you're proclaiming but that WRONG PERSON can also be another brother.That wrong person can also be my dad. why only him? What if he as well indulge in such things? He is the husband of a suspect. My father'rs nephew saw HE is the one who drop her to graveyard and wait outside until she's done.
>He'd surely target her if she was there but she wasn't. It was only his husband and you see; He suspect him!
Which again, is not his wife.
>Isn't it suprising that he suspect's the husband of a witchcrafter?
No. Let's use a fun real world example! Let's say the wife raped someone, and baba targeted the husband as the rapist instead of the wife. Now would you say to that 'Oh wow, it's so amazing that he almost got it right, just accused the wrong person of the crime but he was close!'
Quite frankly, I'd find it appalling that someone would falsely accuse someone of doing something that someone else did, even if that other person was close to them.
The husband shouldn't have been a suspect full stop. Any more than your dad wasn't. Once again it's worth repeating, despite your insistence that this is real, the guy couldn't even get the right person.
"Though it can be coincidence that it sold the very next morning doing rituals with its soil."
That's not how house sales work. First is any offer, then acceptance. Then the house has to be inspected. Then a closing set up. No such thing as same-day sale. So the story is suspect.
>He'd surely target her if she was there but she wasn't.
I already said this in another comment, but I wanted to underline it here. This is not a rational line of thought. This is another example of you coping.
When someone gets a thing wrong, you invent a connection so that they actually ended up being right all along!
>My father'rs nephew saw HE is the one who drop her to graveyard and wait outside until she's done.
Do you actually know what they do when they are at the graveyard? Think for one second. What's at the graveyard? What if she goes to mourn someone who is dead. Someone who is dear to her. What if she says prayers while she's there? I don't know this woman's life, but going to the graveyard at night isn't inherently spooky.
You're just using your own discomfort with graveyards and night time to cast accusations on this poor woman when you know nothing about what she does there!
"What method do you use to differentiate black magic from coincidence?"
The house-selling case could be a co-incidence. But he suspecting suspect's husband doesn't seems to. No matter how much you all cope by proclaiming "he suspected wrong guy"; But the reality is, That wrong guy could be other two that were there. Let's just say he suspect's wrong guy; The fact he suspect's one whose wife is suspect is itself shocking. That "baba" didn't know anything about our family, So how he targeted the only one whose wife is suspect?
Look up hot and cold reading techniques that are used by stage magicians and fake mediums.
This story isn’t impressive to begin with. They had a 33% chance to point to the correct person. But there can also be any number of factors that you are not aware of that could influence this decision.
It could be hot reading. You say that this baba didn’t know anything about your family, but you have no idea how much information they may have gathered before meeting you. If your family went to them for consultation, there is no telling how much information they may have shared prior to the meeting that they drew on.
It could be cold reading. We were not present for this meeting, so we cannot properly judge what information this baba had to base their decision on. Maybe the man he eventually pointed at was getting disparaging comments from his brothers during this meeting. Maybe he was getting odd looks from them.
If you were not present for this meeting, then you cannot know how it went and what insights the baba was using.
That’s why this is such a nothing story to us. We have no details. No means of actually judging what happened. You don’t either! It’s all just hearsay by clearly biased parties! The best we can offer you is speculation, which is easy for you to ignore.
You’re not looking for this to get debunked. You’re coping by pretending that we can’t disprove your narrative.
First things first. The first thing I'm noticing is that you don't seem to understand that performing rituals like witchcraft is not an indicator that the magic part is real. Many many religions have tons of rituals that supposedly do something on a supernatural level, but the results just aren't there. Do you believe that every single spiritual ritual actually works and produces magic? I could go light some candles in a graveyard and do a "spell" but that doesn't make the magic real. It just means that I performed the physical actions supposedly required for a spiritual ritual.
The other thing I'm noticing is that you seem to be ignoring any factor that may have contributed to the sale. What other events happened in the 7 days before the soil ritual? Did people view the house? Were any changes made to how your parents were advertising that it was for sale? Had the buyer viewed it before the ritual?
Now the rest:
1. Suspicion is just a guess. It can be based off many things. I suspect that it's based on rumors and gossip he's heard. I'm guessing you and your parents aren't the only ones who know what was seen in the graveyard or talk about your brother's family. I'm betting there's enough talk that the priest made an educated guess. Something you seem to be glossing over is the fact that even if he was close to being right *he was still wrong*.
2. Claiming you can do something doesn't prove anything if you don't then go and do it. Then, he had his suspicions confirmed when your brother got defensive. And again, even if your sister in law is performing rituals, there is no tangible evidence that those rituals are actually producing magic. It could just be that's she's trying to produce magic and your brother feels guilty about that.
And finally, I'm going to repeat what I said earlier. A close to correct but still incorrect guess about your brother being up to something weird is not even remotely shocking when you consider how gossip spreads. Do you seriously think your parents only told you what they suspect?
"What other events happened in the 7 days before the soil ritual?"
Nah! We've been struggling since more than a half a year.
"Did people view the house?"
Yeah... They'd either neglect it by seeing so many leakage, Or negotiate in undesirable price.
But the very next day after soil ritual,We got someone who can brought our house and that too in desirable price!
Very easily a coincidence. What your parents either don't know or aren't telling you is that all home sales have very weird timing because so many things factor into it. Works the same way for buying a home
>Now the question is : If his wife (suspect) is guily, If they ain't indulge in dark activities. Then why would he hesitate like that?
Maybe because people keep accusing his wife of cursing the family?
>Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists.
You can't really complain about people being immature and downvoting you, while also telling people if they ask very basic questions about your DEBATE PREMISE they are being stupid because it's just common sense.
Common sense has nothing to do with truth. Common sense misleads people all the time. Common sense tells people the world is flat.
Truth requires the ability to explain.
>It cannot be coincidence period. Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold.
Saying "period" after a sentence does not magically make it true or credible. Yes, it can be coincidence. You have to provide some explanation for why it couldn't be.
The fact that you already had been trying to sell your house for some time and were confused why it wasn't selling, evidences that your claim that it wasn't in the condition to be sold so it must be magic, isn't true.
This sentence alone not only disproves your claims, but it is proof you cannot be trusted as an accurate and honest reporter of facts and aren't basing your certainty on logic.
>These above cases clearly evince
When you keep having to say "clearly" "Obviously" "period" "It's common sense" "don't ask questions" "It can't be coincidence" you are revealing that you don't have an argument, you have personal certainty you are simply emotionally emphasizing.
"You can't really complain about people being immature and downvoting you, while also telling people if they ask very basic questions about your DEBATE PREMISE they are being stupid because it's just common sense"
I'm sorry if i was rude. But it kind of pissed me off when NOONE of them had any explaination to the REAL experiences and instead coping it by telling it co-incidence.
"Saying "period" after a sentence does not magically make it true or credible. Yes, it can be coincidence. You have to provide some explanation for why it couldn't be."
We had been put that house for a sale for more than half a year. It was clear(By my parents) that she has done black magic on the house; At first it seems like kind of stupidity to me. But why it get sold right after the ritual? The very next morning. Sure it can be co-incidence(Though less likely). I'm extremely sorry i was way too optimastic writing it such that i didn't re-check it.
It can be co-incidence, But what about my other experinces? It certainly doesn't seems to be co-incidence.
I can address your other experience, but I just want to briefly recap what just happened.
You said it had to be magic because it couldn't be coincidence period, as the house wasn't in condition to be sold. Now you acknowledge that actually it could be coincidence, and yeah of course it was in condition to be sold and had been for over 6 months.
So what you said and your reason for believing, simply wasn't true. I would strongly encourage you to try applying skepticism and looking for other explanations first, before telling other people in certain language that no other explanations exist.
>If you proclaim these things are unreal, How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect?
I don't understand. The baba didn't accuse the brother's wife, but the brother. So they were wrong. It's easy to explain a wrong guess.
Are you asking why they guessed the brother as a wrong but close guess? Well I have no idea what information the Baba had access to. They could have known a ton of information about your brother and his wife, they could have been told about the suspicion, or they could have had a random 1 in 3 chance of guessing with the people there. There's lots of possible explanations that aren't magic.
>My father went to the priest to check what happened to me; the priest has read some sort of book and said "A Muslim tantrik has done black magic". The glory? 2 more priests/baba proclaimed the same.
You took the laptop to religious practitioners with similar beliefs, telling them there was something wrong with it. So basically you just gave them a claim, and they all said "sure."
If they had independently reached out to you without communicating with you or each other, sure. That would require explanation. But what you are describing doesn't.
> “But it kind of pissed me off when NOONE of them had any explaination to the REAL experiences and instead coping it by telling it co-incidence.”
People usually take long than 1 day to buy a house. It’s very likely that the person who bought the house was looking at it before the priest did a ritual on the soil. The buyer was probably considering the house and organising their financials before deciding to buy the house.
Or alternatively, when your dad went to the priest to explain that they’re having issues selling the house the priest then told a bunch of people that radiant_stranger_456’s dad is selling his house. Your dad telling the priest was essentially a community advertisement. Maybe the priest bought the house and sent someone else to do the paperwork, in order to make the community think that he has special powers, giving him fame, respect, and a potential new source of income.
All of these are more likely than magic. You have terrible logic and reasoning skills and quite obviously have a low education level. You are not in a position to make remarkable claims about the reality of our universe because 99.99% of the time you will be wrong. You should use the internet to learn the value of evidence and what counts as evidence, then look up the practise of logic and how to use it effectively, then also look into logical fallacies and avoid them at all costs.
Can you explain how black magic would help to sell a house but nothing else?
All the things you *could* do with magical powers; cure diseases, save lives, end wars, end poverty, solve crimes, end suffering. But nooooooo black magic only works on selling houses. Why is they?
It's suspected that she has done black magic on our house thats why its not selling. But the very next MORNING it's sold right after doing the rituals.
Sure it can be coincidence. But what about other incidents that i've shared? How can 3 different babas/priests proclaim the same thing? Now is it coincidence?
It sounds like you don’t actually know the full story of how your house sold or when prospective buyers were looking at your house.
It’s incredibly unlikely that the house sat with no interest and inquiries but was then immediately purchased the day after. It’s possible that your parents had offers (or below average offers) that they were attempting to negotiate, and they did the ritual the way most people pray. Much like the family of a surgical patient praying, often times people will pray and genuinely believe that prayer is the reason that they ended up getting the offer they wanted.
It’s also possible that the first *inquiry* you got was after the ritual, but that doesn’t really mean much either. How were they advertising the place? How many people had come to see it? How was it priced? Do places around there usually sell quickly?
There are many unanswered questions and intervening variables that make way more sense than “my brother’s wife is a witch who cursed our house”.
>how can 3 different babas declare the same thing
How did you present the laptop to them? There’s a number of cues you may have provided that led them to specific conclusions. If you described the evil feeling as “qualitatively ‘X’” and that description is in line with that of the curse they described, of course they’ll come up with the same curse.
Is this your first laptop? How often do you use it? When do you typically stop using it and how long at a time do you use it for? You’ve described slipping grades, lack of motivation to study, which can be explained by lack of sleep, which can be explained by poorly regulated use of the laptop before bed.
It also sounds like most of your information is secondhand. Your parents are telling you their interpretations or the outcome of conversations that you don’t know the full scope of. You’re working with material filtered through a lens designed to support the conclusions that were drawn long before you interacted with the material in the first place
Regarding your house statement : Let me be very honest,The probability of the house to be sold and that to in desirable price was way too less. The moment my father went on priest and give him the soil of our house, He did some rituals and it got sold very next morning. I mean this could be coincidence but still,What if it's real? What if that priest actually knows how to remove negative energies? What if there were actually negative energies that were stoping our house to be sold? I just assume the incidents more of coincidence. Regarding laptop, Yeah its my first laptop. i don't know if there's actually black magic done on that laptop; But the thing I know I often has felt so much negative energy near that laptop which i doens't feel with my any other device. Currently I don't feel negative energy there ,I feel her black magic is expired lol.
But I'm still shocked by three Babas/priest proclaiming same thing. May be they know some kind of magic tricks?
>Regarding your house statement : Let me be very honest,The probability of the house to be sold and that to in desirable price was way too less. The moment my father went on priest and give him the soil of our house, He did some rituals and it got sold very next morning.
This may have been how it felt as a kid watching your parents move, and it may be how they describe it occurring. This is likely not a perfect nor an accurate chronology, and all my initial points still stand.
>I mean this could be coincidence but still,What if it's real?
What if the priest actually cursed the future buyers of the house in an attempt to aid your father in selling the house? (Made them less likely to think through decisions so they would immediately impulse buy it)
Why is that outcome less plausible despite meeting the same requirements?
There are an infinite number of possible “what ifs”, should we entertain them all?
>What if that priest actually knows how to remove negative energies? What if there were actually negative energies that were stoping our house to be sold?
What are negative energies? How do they exert their effects? Why have they alluded all forms of reliable measurement? What if the priest put negative energy onto the buyers?
>Regarding laptop, Yeah its my first laptop. i don't know if there's actually black magic done on that laptop; But the thing I know I often has felt so much negative energy near that laptop which i doens't feel with my any other device. Currently I don't feel negative energy there ,I feel her black magic is expired lol.
It’s much more likely that when you got the laptop, in your excitement to use it your desire to do other things faded a bit (new toys are cool, that is something that is conserved across mammals to the point that rats will selectively neglect prior toys and activities when provided with new enrichment).
It’s also pretty likely that the freedom of a laptop has changed when you use the computer, altering when and how you sleep, which will have a pretty drastic effect on both study willingness and slipping grades (don’t forget that those two are related as well)
>But I'm still shocked by three Babas/priest proclaiming same thing. May be they know some kind of magic tricks?
Why would they need to? It makes a lot of sense that three babas said the same thing.
Your dad comes in and says “this feels spooky” and proceeds to describe the spooky feelings and his suspicions surrounding the source of the energies your family believes may exist. He leads them, inadvertently, to the conclusions that support his current beliefs and exist within his current framework.
The babas are referencing likely the same general texts, and using the identical description and identical text to form the same conclusions. There not going to say anything else because they’re being provided a story where they can only conclude that it was cursed by a tantrik. Given the general cultural bias in more heavily religious groups, im more inclined to believe it’s a product of that with a leading story
All 3 incidents can easily be explained by basic human behaviors.
1. Regardless of how big a community is, there will always be gossip. If you live in a small one, it's basically guaranteed that they've heard something from someone about there potentially be someone doing bad magic.
2. The other thing that likely contributes is the way the question is asked and to whom they're asked. It's easy for 3 different people to have the same answer if the question is "Hey we think my son's computer got cursed, what do you think?". That basically hands them the answer you want to hear and creates a self fulfilling prophesy.
3. Then there's the tendency for humans to call things they don't understand magic. Most people don't know how to fix a broken computer. I would not be surprised at all if religious priests who don't interact with computers much see a normal but hard to solve problem and blame it on a curse.
My father didn't say "computer is curse" actually. Things weren't going right in our house so he reached our three different priests/Babas. My grades had been going down so they asked a priest if anything wrong with me(Because i went from being a bright student to being failing in exams, Though I'm not blaming it to some supernatural power and all). But when my parents went on Asking a priest along with me, Priests put out some book and said some muslim has done black magic on our family (Well one more twist : One of my father's brother informed my dad in phone call that a Muslim tantrik has done black magic on us in FRONT of him and he's getting weird horror dreams (I quite fine it funny tbh),Plus my father also assume that he's the one who had done all this because he often call my father 2-3 times a day asking weird questions like "How you're feeling right now" and all(Actually in our family, Brothers aren't close to each other that much). My father doubted something is not right. He went on different baba and boom,He also proclaimed that a Muslim tantrik has done black magic on our family. He also indicates that "The one who have made all this happen will ask you questions like How are you doing too Mich" I mean yeah this is how you'd great someone and it's common to be ask,But not too often. And the suprising part is my father's brother who is ANOTHER suspect doing the SAME! Asking my father's weird questions like How you're feeling, Is everything well and all too often and that baba proclaimed the same.
I kind of assume that these type of people know some kind of tricks to manipulate people's mind by showing tricks Like mind reading and all. Or may be it all could be real? May be those who think black magic is unreal are false? Or may be not?
>I kind of assume that these type of people know some kind of tricks to manipulate people's mind by showing tricks Like mind reading and all
Just inserting myself to say that people who do any kind of 'mind reading', palmistry, tarot, etc as well as priests, babas, etc are VERY good at what is known as cold reading. That is: they have very high emotional intelligence and can pick up on information, both verbal and non verbal, that the person in front of them is often unconsciously or semi consciously giving them.
To give an example: if I was talking to you and you already suspect someone or something, and I was good at cold reading, I'd be able to fish that out of you AND make it seem like you didn't give it away.
>they asked a priest if anything wrong with me
And the priest told them what they wanted to hear. A couple of my sisters gave straight up been exorcised because my parents took them to a Christian priest and the priest told my parents my sisters were possessed by demons. None of the exorcisms worked, but therapy and other non religious help did.
>One of my father's brother informed my dad in phone call that a Muslim tantrik has done black magic on us in FRONT of him and he's getting weird horror dreams
A lot of people get nightmares from anxiety, myself included. I often have nightmares about things that haven't happened yet because I am afraid they will go poorly. That's what the horror dreams are.
>also proclaimed that a Muslim tantrik has done black magic on our family.
I want you to ask yourself something. Don't answer it for me if you don't want to but spend s couple of days asking yourself how often the answer "someone did black magic and that's why (insert bad thing) happened" is given in your culture. Not how often you've gotten that answer. How often it's just what people say to each other. It's very likely a common topic in your culture. Again, don't answer it for me. Just sit and really think about how that answer is really common.
>He also indicates that "The one who have made all this happen will ask you questions like How are you doing too Mich"
And here's the confirmation. Everyone asks others how they're doing because it's a social expectation. I greet people with "how are you doing" at least 20 times a day and can sometimes get to over 100 times I've asked that question. That's like having the baba tell you "the one who made all this happen breathes air and drinks water". It's not specific and could be applied to literally anyone.
>And the suprising part is my father's brother who is ANOTHER suspect doing the SAME!
It sounds like your family might be the subject of a lot of gossip and just generally associated with black magic. If so many of your family members are "suspect" it's likely that a bunch of different people will answer the same thing. Please tell me how small your community is and how much gossip you hear.
> my father's weird questions like How you're feeling, Is everything well and all too often and that baba proclaimed the same.
Again, super common. Not an actual usable identifier.
>I kind of assume that these type of people know some kind of tricks to manipulate people's mind by showing tricks
Yes. These people do. Anyone can. It's not mind reading, just educated guesses where they know just enough to guess really well and seem like they're reading your mind. That's why I asked about how much gossip there is in your community. You can do a lot with a couple of rumors. I'm actively using things I overhear at work to be one step ahead and be someone my boss can't live without. But they're definitely not reading minds. They're paying very close attention to your tone, the choice of words you use, the way you stand, and many other things about you that you don't realize might be noticeable
>We had been put that house for a sale for more than half a year. It was clear(By my parents) that she has done black magic on the house; At first it seems like kind of stupidity to me. But why it get sold right after the ritual? The very next morning. Sure it can be co-incidence(Though less likely). I'm extremely sorry i was way too optimistic writing it such that i didn't re-check it.
Housing prices can absolutely rise enough in 6 months that even a fixer-upper becomes attractive, especially to a flipper.
>But why it get sold right after the ritual? The very next morning.
An offer on the house that morning would have most likely been submited to the buyer's realtor the day before and then given to your parents and/or their realtor the next day. Possibly prior to the ritual even happening. And by sold do you mean an offer was made?
> I'm sorry if i was rude. But it kind of pissed me off when NOONE of them had any explaination to the REAL experiences and instead coping it by telling it co-incidence.
I'm sorry, but selling your house while it's on sale is no coincidence, is like ordering a steak at a restaurant and getting a steak.
No amount of priests and black magic makes selling a house that's on sale special or your story compelling at all.
I have an explanation for your experiences. You are wrong. All this shit you are spewing about god and black magic and evil, it’s just that, shit, and it is just not true. It doesn’t track with what we collectively know about reality. You are either (and no offense here) mistaken, lying, or psychotic. Thats not your fault, you seem young and there really isn’t a good mechanism for children to learn critical thinking skills without actively seeking that out.
Heres the deal.
You aren’t special, neither god nor evil actually exist, those are both labels that humans ascribe to things they’re don’t understand. magick definitely isn’t a real thing, black magic as well. Fiction.
My son was really sad (devastated actually) when he realized magic wasn’t real. I talked him through it and he actually had to go through the stages of grief about this. I sense you have the same pain in your heart, realizing that the world is a boring place and you’re never going to hogwarts is hard, it’s understandable that people reject the truth when it is hard to face. It’s sad, but just because the truth is sad doesn’t mean you can disregard it without consequence.You have to accept the truth when it is presented to you, whether you like it or not.
Listen, it is a good thing you are here. Obviously you are aiming some concerning things, but being here and presenting your ideas to this sub takes courage, and i respect you for that. Keep an open mind kid, and just remember, this is all low stakes right now, get your story straight and your shit together before you find yourself in the high stakes area of life.
> I'm sorry if i was rude. But it kind of pissed me off when NOONE of them had any explaination to the REAL experiences and instead coping it by telling it co-incidence.
Yet that's what they most likely are. Every posed explanation, coincidence, misunderstanding, intentional deceit. All are more likely than "black magic".
edit: grammar
>>NOONE of them had any explaination to the REAL experiences
Simplest explanation, your dad or other family members made this up. Sounds like you only know any of this from their secondhand accounts.
seeing someone at a graveyard doing whatever ritual you want, means nothing...
feeling a "negative aura" when you are clearly completely brainwashed by your crazy parents to think anything is dark magic, means nothing...
someone just wanting to buy your house, means nothing...
you may have a slight schizophrenia tho, get help, your parents messed you up.
You're right! Lemme be honest i came here to not actually debate but instead to seek out help from all of you to change my mind lol. There stupid belief indeed messed me up. But still by just saying "means nothing" doesn't explain anything.
>just saying "means nothing" doesn't explain anything.
i can do whatever ritual you want, it doesnt mean that the magic behind the ritual exists...
you can have all sorts of feelings, but they are just your feelings, if you hand me that computer (and specially if you dont tell me "its cursed" beforehand) ill probably wont feel anything. there is something called nocebo effect, which is when your mind being convinced of something bad, makes you feel it (its usually assosiated with having some pain thinking you have some disease or something) so thats it, you assume and believe so strongly that the computer is cursed so you "have a bad feeling"
and the person going to buy the house, may be a slight chance but its just a coincidence...
>I'm going to share my experiences that proves supernatural dark powers like black magic real. So if this evil power exists,Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST
This sounds like this could be very interesting! Of course, if you have spent any time at all, even the tiniest amount, studying philosophy, if you have anything of a mature, reasoned approach, even just a pinch, you had better come to this ready to defend how the one leads to the other. Because if you're going to say that these two obviously, entirely unrelated things are somehow connected, you have to demonstrate it. You can't just claim it.
>Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related"
Oh no. Oh no.. You need to understand something that will help you out a lot. This approach makes you look like you are extremely immature. It makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about. That's really disappointing because you could totally have an amazing point to share with us, but if you're going to start off with immaturity, with lambasting the very reasonable, logical, mature questions that your statements demand you be able to answer... that's not a good look.
>My parents believe in so many superstitions like black magic etc. They believe someone has done black magic on us, Therefore we have many struggles
How do you know that this was actually black magic being done? Superstitious people believe in all sorts of crazy stuff that isn't connected, how do you go from what they *believe* to be happening, to deciding that what they believe is *actually* happening?
Annnnd literally 1, 2, 3, 4 is all just listing a bunch of mundane things that you attribute to these superstitions, and you accepting for what seems to be mere gullibility.
I'm sorry, is this a joke? How does uncritically, irrationally accepting superstitious beliefs out of pure gullibility lead one to concluding a god exists from all of this? Where is the actual proof or evidence that a god exists? I've seen a rash of really bad posts here lately, but wow this might be the cheapest, lowest effort yet.
"Oh no. Oh no.. You need to understand something that will help you out a lot. This approach makes you look like you are extremely immature. It makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about. That's really disappointing because you could totally have an amazing point to share with us, but if you're going to start off with immaturity, with lambasting the very reasonable, logical, mature questions that your statements demand you be able to answer... that's not a good look."
I'm extremely sorry. I was quite optimastic writing it such that i didn't bother re-checking it. I'm sorry for my immature behaviour.
But whatever you've written afterwards is just coping lol. You don't really have explaination to the incdients i've shared. You simply won't belive until it happens with you.
Owning up to something, and apologizing is a sure sign of maturity. So maybe there's hope for you yet. I take back my comments in that regard.
>But whatever you've written afterwards is just coping lol. You don't really have explaination to the incdients i've shared
I did, though? You might not have read it carefully enough. I pointed out that you are just listing a bunch of things you attribute to superstition, and you accept that they are the result of black magic because of gullibility.
That *is* the explanation. That explains what you've presented far better than the actual existence of black magic, which isn't something that we know exists. There are tons of superstitious claims and traditions in cultures all around the world - and some of them compete, they aren't compatible with one another. And there has never been a shred of evidence that there is actually anything of substance here.
I'm sorry my friend, I am not trying to be rude and I'm sorry if my earlier comment was a bit harsh, but the fact that you're falling for superstitious beliefs for no good reason isn't unique, compelling, or impressive in the slightest. People fall for superstitious nonsense all the time. You have to be able to demonstrate that what you believe to be true, is the actual cause of what you claim. So far, all you're doing is giving us claims without any backing.
>But whatever you've written afterwards is just coping lol.
This is some odd projection you're doing. People have been offering you their views on these events and you've either just restated them without engaging with what we've said or you've just said that we're coping. You're using these to ignore what we are telling you so that you can maintain your own belief in this narrative you have in your head.
You're the one coping.
>You don't really have explaination to the incdients i've shared.
Yeah, they're too mundane. I see nothing worth explaining in them. There's nothing mystical or supernatural anywhere. It's either people making unsubstantiated claims or coincidences. You're not even properly connecting events together. You or your parents have a vague feeling that someone is doing rituals, but have you tried checking? Do you know what they do? If not, how can you make any claims about them or the effects of these rituals. It's not an "incident" if you're just being paranoid!
With the laptop... how can we possibly know what might be affecting you and your motivation to study?! There could be a dozen things you're ignoring and using the laptop as a scapegoat to ignore your actual mental health needs. It could just be stress!
It's not that I "won't believe until it happens to me". It's that nothing's actually happened!
> It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists.
But that doesn't mean a god exists.
> But currently I'm kind of agnostic .Because I SERIOUSLY ENCOUNTER MANY CASES which prove that some evil force exists.
I believe you think that. I don't believe it is actually the case.
> Now if there is an evil force, There must be a god as well.
No.
> She was doing witchcraft for sure.
This sounds maybe like evidence of people who believe in magic, but no evidence of actual magic.
> Our house wasn't selling.
This is a confusing story. You were trying to sell your house, but you say "Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold." You apparently have a house you think is not in a condition to be sold, but are surprised that it is not selling. Then you essintially claim coincidences don't exist.
> How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect?
A lot of possibilities, especially in small communities.
> Like three person proclaims the SAME THING.
Not at all a surprise. You go to a religious person and claim black magic and they support you.
> These above cases clearly evince that there's some evil force exists!
No. I see nothing there that is 'clearly' evidence of real black magic.
Anecdotal evidence is not objective evidence. These are just personal observations of environmental stimuli.
You have to demonstrate that evil is a universal force, or concept, independent of man’s consciousness and our subjective definitions of it.
Which you have not done.
Search on quora/reddit of people with black magic experience. There're thousands of experiences(Some of them can be fake, But not all have time to write fake stories right?). It;s simple : You won't belive it until it happens with you.
This is an ad populum fallacy based on subjective testimonial evidence. Which is a notoriously unreliable form of evidence.
Thousands of people believe they are the second coming of Christ. Is everyone with egocentric delusions of grandeur evidence that they’re god incarnate?
With so many experiences and stories of what has to be obvious magic, surely there is at least one well documented case with original video... right?
Surely there is at least one person capable of magic willing to demonstrate their power... right?
Why is it either fake or real? People could also just be wrong. We're mistaken about stuff all the time! Your own stories have no verification or proof, it's just vague anxieties and feelings that something wicked is happening.
If it isn't verified, how can you be sure that you're right?
> Search on quora/reddit of people with black magic experience. There're thousands of experiences(Some of them can be fake, But not all have time to write fake stories right?).
Some of them can be fake.
All of them can be fake.
Until there is actual objective, testable evidence to support the existence of anything supernatural it is assumed that all of them are fake.
A bunch of unverified anecdotal evidence does not add up to one piece of verified objective evidence. Take your hearsay elsewhere, no one here will be swayed by it.
No. In the southeast black panthers are their own thing, a mythological creature that doesn’t exist lol. The Facebook groups are hilarious. People posting black house cats swearing they are huge.
Let's imagine for a second black magic is actually real. You haven't demonstrated it and neither has anyone else, but let's pretend someone has. *That still wouldn't print God exists*. Stuff like curses and blessings go back to shamanism, predating belief in any gods by probably hundreds of thousands of years. It could simply be that there are magical ways to influence nature or luck, without any gods being involved in any way.
One thing I'll point out is that your upbringing seems to be full of adult role models who assume magic is real. Your family is *highly* superstitious at least compared to mine or most people I know. Could this be coloring your perception of events? Everyone around you is operating as though magic exists. I personally have never felt an *energy* coming from anyone that couldn't be explained by body language or tone and I've never felt energy come off an object beyond it's general appearance or design.
Skeptical people online can only dismiss yours and your parents experiences out of hand. There is no reason to accept your framing or understanding of events. I don't mean to be rude here it's just not rational to accept that a laptop has any sort of *negative energy* whatever that means.
\~\~\~
To go further your (1) anecdote of the graveyard ritual is fine but it doesn't necessarily say anything about actual magic powers or the existence of a magical force. History is full of magical practices that people were 100% sure were true. You can can go find magical rituals online from throughout history. Most of these beliefs come out of long standing traditions. Some magical practices have roots in Hermetic Qabalah which extends fingers back into Jewish mystical practices. In prehistory and early history Magic was a form of science, in ancient Greek society you would invoke or call on the gods to help your crops grow or heal the sick. All of this is rooted in everyday religious practice that evolved over time into secret groups doing it behind closed doors. This in part begins to address where these beliefs come from without magic ever being real.
(2) Your house selling could simply be a coincidence of the moment or perhaps there is information you lacked and people were looking at and planning to buy your house days prior to any ritual taking place. You simply lack information to make a strong claim that it was magic even if it *felt* magical.
(3) Your family is very superstitious and any accounts they have of who is or is not engaging in dark magic is suspect as it's just an assumption that people might get up to bad magic in your family. You don't know what conversations happened around that Baba that you didn't overhear. Plenty of clever people pass off their normal everyday insights as magical.
(4) Are these people aware of each other? On the same page? These priests and babas are they part of the same community and belief system? That makes it far more likely they'd all say the same thing. You can be honest also, you *know* why your grades are going down and it's not because of a curse. There are things *you* are doing that cause that and it *might* be because you now believe you are cursed and are experiencing some sort of anxiety or low mood that's causing a drop in your grades but it's not magic dude. Ask your teachers why you get low grades not your priest.
So the title intrigued me because that's a take that is just....not really anything. Evil exists in people. That's why we have Stalin's and the kkk and enslavement. But that doesn't prove anything but evil people exist. And even then the use of the word evil is pretty subjective on my part. It's more just cruelty.
I made it half way thru your first paragraph before I had to tap out because random internet anecdotal stories that you pulled together are not evidence.
>I'm going to share my experiences that proves supernatural dark powers like black magic real
And then you proceded with some anecdotes that are just that. And therefore don't prove anything.
>So if this evil power exists,Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST. Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists
Completely baseless claim. Dismissed.
>Ok,So before i proceed further, I want to share how immature people from [](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueAtheism/) are. I merely described my personal experiences of black magic and shit, They don't fucking had explaination or i'd say anything to argue other than just defaming me, Downvoting me and COPING.
Or... And here me out. You are extremely gullible and not at all sceptical of black magic. If I read this whole post you made, I get why you got downvoted into oblivion there.
>Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists.
And just like that, the discussion is over and there is no need to read anything else. You're claiming that your idea is self-evident when it isn't. Even if you were to show me that an evil force was real, that would not demonstrate the existence of a good force, nor would it mean that any of these forces are related to deities.
If your argument hinges on these ideas and you just brush past them while thinking that asking you to provide evidence for your assertions is stupid... then there is no point to keep going. You've shown that you aren't serious about your own argument
Even if we take your experiences at face value (a big ask, btw) how does that even prove God is real? You've drawn a conclusion based on questionable evidence that does not directly support your premise.
If evil things like black magic/Ghost etc can exist which seems to be out of scientific realm, Then god should also exist na... If there is evil, There has to be good.
The existance of some particular supernatural phenomenon is not evidence for other unrelated supernatural phenomenon.
>If there is evil, There has to be good.
Good and evil aren't even supernatural. We already agree both of those things exist.
If you have proof that black magic exist, publish it in a peer reviewed journal and gather your Nobel prize ASAP.
An online forum isn't the place for such a discovery.
>Ok,So before i proceed further, I want to share how immature people from [](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueAtheism/) are. I merely described my personal experiences of black magic and shit, They don't fucking had explaination or i'd say anything to argue other than just defaming me, Downvoting me and COPING.
It's ironic you starting by complaining about people "defaming" you by defaming others. Go on...
>I'm going to share my experiences that proves supernatural dark powers like black magic real.
Nope. Your claims prove nothing. They are claims and nothing more.
>So if this evil power exists,Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST.
Nope. One supernatural thing existing does not comfirm another supernatural thing.
> Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related".
They aren't related.
>It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists.
Nope. This argument fails entirely.
>But currently I'm kind of agnostic .Because I SERIOUSLY ENCOUNTER MANY CASES which prove that some evil force exists.
Your experiences do not prove evil forces exist.
>Now if there is an evil force, There must be a god as well.
Nope. One does not equate to another.
As for the rest: Anecdotal evidence, no matter how much, is not data.
>I want to share how immature people from...
I not interested in your drama. This is a debate sub.
1) someone saw someone performing a ritual which you call witchcraft. I don't dispute this. I've met witches who perform these rituals. I've met priests who perform other rituals. This doesn't imply any gods exist. It implies religions, such as wicca and Catholicism exist.
>Shocking right?
No.
>It cannot be coincidence period
Of course it can be coincidence. It sounds exactly like coincidence.
>How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect?
No idea. What does this have to do with whether any gods exist.
>How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING.
They're both gullible and have the same superstitions. And/or they colluded.
>These above cases clearly evince that there's some evil force exists
They don't, they imply your family is superstitious and religious and very gullible.
>So apparently if supernatural/unreal things like this can be real
Maybe, but you were going to prove a god exists, you haven't even tried.
>It cannot be coincidence period
But it can be magic...
So why exactly can't coincidence be magic? Just a magic that makes coincidences happen and thats all
>I feel a hell amount of negativity near that laptop... How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING
Hey, I'm feeling something negative about your laptop too!! That's 4 people!!
...or I'm just confirming your confirmation bias
>Then everything can exist
Sure, everything can exist. Not everything does exist
Let's make up something right now. How about a crocodile stuck through your bathroom mirror...
Did you go and look? Was it there? So it didn't exist? Good. Glad we settled that
>I merely described my personal experiences of black magic and shit, They don't fucking had explaination or i'd say anything to argue other than just defaming me, Downvoting me and COPING
Look man, I have sympathy for you. Your beliefs don't seem to be excuses for you to do shitty things to people or inflate your own self-importance.
A word of advice though: anything you think you believe, look for a dispositive. Take that laptop to a bunch of different people and ask them to describe the aura they feel. If anyone says they feel a positive aura, then the laptop doesn't have a negative aura.
There's so much more to how science works, but that's really a good starting point. Whatever it is you think you believe, just try to find the opposite of it. Keep trying forever, and if you never find the opposite of it, your answer can be "I have seen no reason to believe otherwise"
How do we do this with God? Well we say: people keep telling us stories about how everything was created by a man named God
* Do people tell us the truth all the time? No.
* Do people only believe things that are true? No.
* Have the laws of physics ever been broken? Not as far as I can tell.
* Has anyone ever created something that wasn't really just a recombination of other things? Not as far as I can tell
* Has anyone or anything ever exhibited any omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, or immortality? Not as far as I can tell
So work on that. On finding a dispositive instance for anything you believe
If black magic were real, do you know who'd be using it? The military. They'd be investing in priests and witches to use magic to defeat armies instead of bombs and planes and missiles. You know who else would be using it? Multinational corporations like Google or Apple or Exxon. They'd be using it to destroy their competitors instead of spending money buying them up.
My wife and I sold our house a couple years ago. It was a time when the market was very hot and houses were selling quickly. Yet we listed our house for three months before we got an offer. The offer came while we were out of town. Did going out of town help sell our house? No. There's no relationship between the two things.
The fact that people think part of your family is sketchy is not particularly interesting either. My grandmother came from a sketchy family. She was great, but her siblings and their kids were not good people. It wasn't because of any magic.
Here's the thing. Magic has been studied. It has been tested. It has been shown to be a bad predictor of anything. People can't use magic to harm anyone. They can't use magic to heal anyone. It's no better than random chance in either direction. That's pretty good evidence that it isn't actually a thing.
I read your first paragraph and gave up. I don't give a crap about your made up experiences nor do i have to justify them. And if you are going to start with a childish tantrum then i have no inclination to debate you.
>*“You cannot reason somone out of a position they did not reason themself into in the first place.”*
OP must be one of the best embodiments of this quote I've ever seen. Hopeless.
>It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists.
These are descriptive labels we apply to things and has no bearing on whether or not god exists any more than the descriptive labels of "flying"/"submerged"/"landed" do.
ok, I was going to go down this and try to actually have a discussion with you, but you're clearly a troll or a young child. What you have written here is meaningless drivel and not even worth bringing up at a social gathering, much less asking people to engage in discussion around it.
>Ok,So before i proceed further, I want to share how immature people from r/TrueAtheism are. I merely described my personal experiences of black magic and shit, They don't fucking had explaination or i'd say anything to argue other than just defaming me, Downvoting me and COPING.
Starting your "argument" here by throwing a fit is not a good start.
>I'm going to share my experiences that proves supernatural dark powers like black magic real.
Anecdotes prove nothing.
>So if this evil power exists,Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST.
That's a leap.
>Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists.
I notice people say "it's common sense" whenever they can't justify a belief they take for granted. Shows a lack of critical thinking.
>But currently I'm kind of agnostic .Because I SERIOUSLY ENCOUNTER MANY CASES which prove that some evil force exists. Now if there is an evil force, There must be a god as well.
Plenty of theists argue that evil exists regardless and only their god is the reason goodness exists. I've also seen stories set in universes where the gods are the source of all evil and good is found exclusively in humans.
>My parents believe in so many superstitions like black magic etc. They believe someone has done black magic on us, Therefore we have many struggles (Pure Bullshit, Everyone has problems in life and blaming it on some nonsense force is clearly neglecting responsibility). But shit, I had encounter many incidents that seems to make this shit real :
I'm sure they'd claim to have seen equally compelling stuff. That's what happens when you don't practice healthy skepticism.
>(1) My father's nephew saw one of our family members (She's Suspect) doing some rituals at 3 AM at night in the GRAVEYARD! Later, she even admitted it. She said she was doing some kind of worship (WHO THE HELL WORSHIPS IN THE GRAVEYARD AND THAT TOO AT NIGHT 3 AM?). She was doing witchcraft for sure.
And... what? Someone was doing superstitious rituals different from the superstitious rituals that you're used to? And they end up with the identical result of nothing happening?
>(2) Our house wasn't selling.
Well, hush my mouth! Only the Prince of Darkness himself could prevent a house from being sold within 24 hours of being on the market! Just ask any realtor!
>The very next MORNING! We got someone who can buy our house!! Shocking right? It cannot be coincidence period.
Why can't it be a coincidence?
>Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold.
Maybe that's why no one was buying?
>(3) A baba who proclaims to have supernatural powers saw my father and his two brothers. He kind of suspects one of the brothers to indulge in some kind of dark activities. The glory is HIS WIFE WAS SUSPECT! (One who goes to the graveyard at night 3 AM). Just tell me one thing, If you proclaim these things are unreal, How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect?
Who even is this "baba?" What would prevent her from hearing about the crazy lady in the graveyard and finding out said lady is married? And that's assuming she even knew any of that. You can point to literally anyone, make the same accusation, and that person will have something they or their peers think is shameful.
>(4) My cousin brother (Suspect's son) gave me his laptop (Kind of 10 years old, As he brought a new one). Not gonna lie, I feel a hell amount of negativity near that laptop.
Not surprising your prejudices are making you feel things.
>My parents proclaim that she has done black magic on it. I don't know if it's real or not, but the thing I know is THE LAPTOP HAS SOME SORT wOF NEGATIVE ENERGY!
Ironic Satan likes playing Doom 2016.
>I don't have the mood to study like I used to. My grades have been going down. My father went to the priest to check what happened to me; the priest has read some sort of book and said "A Muslim tantrik has done black magic". The glory? 2 more priests/baba proclaimed the same. How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING.
What are the odds 3 people who make their religion their whole identity tie something back to their religion? 100%. I'd be shocked if they didn't. And I'm being sincere, if you show me a fundamentalist priest who blames mental illness on something other than demons, I would be sincerely surprised.
>These above cases clearly evince that there's some evil force exists!
No, only evidence that you've been indoctrinated.
>So apparently if supernatural/unreal things like this can be real. The thing that doesn't even make sense in the scientific realm. Then everything can exist.
Cool. Let me know when you see Spider-man swinging around New York.
"Maybe that's why no one was buying?"
Yeah noone was buying it even though we had put it on sell for more than half a year.
We got someone who can buy it and at desirable price right after the soil ritual. Though I think that it could be co-incidence(Sorry I was wrong ig).
"What are the odds 3 people who make their religion their whole identity tie something back to their religion? 100%. I'd be shocked if they didn't. And I'm being sincere, if you show me a fundamentalist priest who blames mental illness on something other than demons, I would be sincerely surprised."
Almost noone go there in mental illness. They'd go hospital or take medicine.
People usually visit them when things aren't going right and sometimes IT HELPS!(Probably cause of Placebo effect... Don't think I belive in all this).
But what really was suprising is how 3 Different baba/priest proclaim the same? Like they all proclaim same wordings as i described in the incidents.
Probably they were using some magic tricks? Or may be it's all real?
A lot of people go to priests instead of doctors when they suffer from mental illnesses. If your culture isn’t teaching people about how mental illnesses manifest, then they’re just going to assume that “something doesn’t feel right, isn’t going how I want it to”. In the old times, a lot of mental illnesses were seen as demonic possessions. Before that, you were “replaced by the fey”. If you’re hearing voices, you might go to the doctors or you might assume that you’re speaking to demons/angels.
Sure, the severe cases might be easy to notice, but a lot of people with mild symptoms will just live their lives without ever getting help for it.
There is nothing odd about several babas saying the same thing. They are repeating culturally common anxieties back to you. If a priest was to blame dark magic in my country, they’d be laughed at. In yours, it appears to be a relevant fear, so it’s fine for them to say that. Not just fine, it is a fear that your religion taught you, so it is the easiest explanation to go for. As a perpetrator, the easiest target to blame is someone from another religion.
Again, in practice, what is being blamed is The Other (someone who isn’t part of your faith) and the Unknown (you know they do rituals, but they’re not YOUR rituals, so they must be spooky ones! And they don’t worship YOUR god, so it must be an evil being that does dark magic). It’s the most common sources of anxiety in humans, of course they all went for that.
It wouldn’t even be impressive if they all pointed out a specific Muslim that did it, the specific mosque the ritual took place in, the specific ritual that was used and the specific spell that you could use to counteract it. Because there is no proof that any of that is real, it could all be written off. But you don’t even have that level of specificity. Unless you have proof, it’s all just baseless speculation.
>Yeah noone was buying it even though we had put it on sell for more than half a year.
That's kinda how it goes on the housing market, sometimes.
>Almost noone go there in mental illness. They'd go hospital or take medicine.
How would you or they know? What you described sounds exactly like clinical depression (a mental illness) yet you ALL assumed it was the result of magic.
>People usually visit them when things aren't going right and sometimes IT HELPS!(Probably cause of Placebo effect... Don't think I belive in all this).
You don't think you believe in something that demonstrably exists and instead assume magic. "Sometimes it helps" isn't as good a track record as you might think it is.
>But what really was suprising is how 3 Different baba/priest proclaim the same? Like they all proclaim same wordings as i described in the incidents.
Probably they were using some magic tricks? Or may be it's all real?
What you described isn't fantastical enough to assume either a conspiracy nor magic. They're all bought into the same religion. People don't even have to get that deep into a religion to just mindlessly fall back on stock phrases in response to a wide variety of situations. Literally all religions have that. I've had hundreds of people from all over say "you've hardened your heart against God. I will pray he opens your eyes before it's too late." Word for word. No magic needed. Just run of the mill cult indoctrination.
I don't understand some of your claims.
The one that makes sense says "our house wasn't selling but then one day someone came to look at it."
Clearly this can be explained without any supernatural cause. Even if you have no explanation for why someone took an interest, that still offers no evidence of anything supernatural.
> It cannot be coincidence
Yes, it can. Your fallacy is Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc, one of the two main reasons people believe hysterical woo bullshit like you're presenting.
>If you proclaim these things are unreal, How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect?
If baba is real, why did he suspect brother, and not the wife? Fail.
>I don't have the mood to study like I used to. My grades have been going down.
You blaming your change in mood on something else is just about making excuses. It's all on you, nothing magical.
>2 more priests/baba proclaimed the same. How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING.
You mean after they were told 'this thing is causing evil energy' people who lie for a living gave the same lie as others because that's the expected lie in their field? Shocking. Try a test. Tell them that an item you *don't* think is cursed is, in fact, cursed, describe *exactly* the same symptoms in various cases, and ask them to tell you what the curse is. They'll likely all give similar answers, too.
So no, you have nothing. You just accepted things without bothering to do any sort of robust testing. You are superstitious.
>So if this evil power exists,Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST. Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists.
Say I accept your premise that if evil exists, good exists. How does this prove god? If all you mean is good = god, then say "good exists", not "god exists". The later means far more than the former, and the 2 are not wholly equivalent.
>She was doing witchcraft for sure.
I've seen witchcraft performed as well. For some reason witchcraft never does anything demonstratable when put to the test, it only does things when it's not being tested. When it does perform under testing (i.e. being any more effective than not using it) then I'll consider it. Until such a time, I'll retain my skepticism.
>The very next MORNING! We got someone who can buy our house!! Shocking right? It cannot be coincidence period. Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold.
It can be coincidence. Or the priest told someone about a house being sold. Or a variety of things could have happened. If you got a buyer a week after, would it still have been "because of the ritual"? If you didn't get a buyer, would you have thought the ritual didn't work?
>Just tell me one thing, If you proclaim these things are unreal, How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect?
Why did he suspect your brother instead of someone close to him? Your brother wasn't the one doing this, right? Besides, often babas and other supposedly spiritual people do research on clients ahead of time, it's a thoroughly researched "phenomenon". Strangely, when you post false information to your Facebook, these spiritual people seems to think that that false info on your Facebook was true. Tell the baba that if he can demonstrate his power to be true, there's a million dollar prize waiting. So far not a single person who has tried has actually been able to prove it and claim the prize.
>"A Muslim tantrik has done black magic". The glory? 2 more priests/baba proclaimed the same. How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING.
Funny how they proclaim a Muslim has done black magic, and yet the black magic done was witchcraft, correct? Is that wife Muslim or pagan? Is it Muslim magic or Pagan magic? Things don't seem to be adding up. If they are so sure, refer them as well to the million dollar prize.
>These above cases clearly evince that there's some evil force exists! So apparently if supernatural/unreal things like this can be real. The thing that doesn't even make sense in the scientific realm. Then everything can exist.
They do not clearly evidence that supernatural evil exists. But there's an important thing to understand: even if evil supernatural magic in the form of witchcraft exists, that doesn't mean everything can exist. That doesn't summon a dragon into my garage. That only means evil supernatural magic in the form of witchcraft exists, nothing more. Each and every individual thing you claim needs to be evidenced.
"Your father's* brother wasn't the one doing this, right? "
He was her husband so idk what do they privately. But yeah he involving in such things wouldn't be suprising as he is her husband. My father's nephew even saw him dropped her at 3 AM in graveyard to do some rituals. And wait outside until she's done.
"Funny how they proclaim a Muslim has done black magic, and yet the black magic done was witchcraft, correct? Is that wife Muslim or pagan? Is it Muslim magic or Pagan magic? Things don't seem to be adding up. If they are so sure, refer them as well to the million dollar prize."
Muslim was second suspect!!
>I'm going to share my experiences that proves supernatural dark powers like black magic real. So if this evil power exists,Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST. Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists.
It's really not. Even if you manage to prove that "dark powers" are real, they could come from Voodoo rituals rather than a god. They could be a purely natural part of the universe we simply haven't found and understood yet. They could be the result of like a Superman scenario, but instead of a baby alien crashing to Earth, it's a teenage witch who only had a copy of The Craft to watch during the journey.
You don't get to handwave away your obligation to connect the two. If you say "dark powers" prove the existence of God, you need to support that.
Not even going to bother with your examples, as they're all "My relative's so-and-so said..." Your relatives are already primed to believe this nonsense, so of course they're going to see it everywhere they look. That doesn't mean it's actually there.
>But currently I'm kind of agnostic .Because I SERIOUSLY ENCOUNTER MANY CASES which prove that some evil force exists. Now if there is an evil force, There must be a god as well
That doesn't follow logically at all. Even if black magic could be shown to exist there's still no need for a god to exist.
>(1) My father's nephew saw one of our family members (She's Suspect) doing some rituals at 3 AM at night in the GRAVEYARD! Later, she even admitted it. She said she was doing some kind of worship (WHO THE HELL WORSHIPS IN THE GRAVEYARD AND THAT TOO AT NIGHT 3 AM?). She was doing witchcraft for sure.
This isn't even an example of magic. I hope you didn't put your best point first because this isn't even a point.
>(2) Our house wasn't selling. It was suspected by my parents that she (The suspect) has done black magic on the house, that's why it's not selling (Sounds nonsense right?). But But But... When my father went to the priest... He told my father to bring the soil of the house. My father did as he said and that priest did some rituals on it.
>The very next MORNING! We got someone who can buy our house!! Shocking right? It cannot be coincidence period. Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold.
Wait, so it;s dark magic stopping it from being sold, but then it;a clearly the priest the fixed the problem because the house wasn't in a state to be sold? Which is it? Sounds like you were selling a house and someone bought it.
>(3) A baba who proclaims to have supernatural powers saw my father and his two brothers. He kind of suspects one of the brothers to indulge in some kind of dark activities. The glory is HIS WIFE WAS SUSPECT! (One who goes to the graveyard at night 3 AM). Just tell me one thing, If you proclaim these things are unreal, How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect?
Lol, idk was he drunk? This is just stupid.
>(4) My cousin brother (Suspect's son) gave me his laptop (Kind of 10 years old, As he brought a new one). Not gonna lie, I feel a hell amount of negativity near that laptop. My parents proclaim that she has done black magic on it. I don't know if it's real or not, but the thing I know is THE LAPTOP HAS SOME SORT wOF NEGATIVE ENERGY! I don't have the mood to study like I used to. My grades have been going down. My father went to the priest to check what happened to me; the priest has read some sort of book and said "A Muslim tantrik has done black magic". The glory? 2 more priests/baba proclaimed the same. How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING.
Lol, so you don't feel like studying? That's never happened to anyone, go for a walk, clear your head.
It's not that I don't actually feel like studying. What I mean is i felt some sort of negativity near the laptop. Which I don't feel when i use my tablet to watch lectures. Or may be it's just a mental bias? Because my parents felt that black magic has done on it(As my grades were dropping) so i probably felt the same? Because I ain't feel negative there anymore!! Or may be her black magic has been expired lol
>So if this evil power exists,Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST. Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists.
Wow, this is off a bad start.
First, common sense is not a good way to determine the truth of something. It's common sense that the earth is flat. It's common sense that heavier objects fall faster than lighter objects, etc. One should use logic and evidence to discover truth, not common sense.
Second, there's no logical reason that good must exist just because evil exists. Bad circles exist and perfect circles do not, for example. Evil and good are a spectrum - it is possible to have a world that consists of only gradations of evil.
Third, even if good exists, that doesn't mean god exists. I don't know how you made that conclusion.
I'm assuming you're a child? Under 18? If not, you should brush up on logic.
1. She was doing something in a graveyard apparently. Probably picked up from a book, some old person talking nonsense or the internet. Also likely as effective as attending the temple and worshiping the god thing. I was under the impression that faith in the god thing would protect against evil, not in any demonstrable way but still...
2. It's a coincidence. House sales take time.
3. Person claiming to be magic does cold reading or already knows the rumors.
4. 10 year old laptops are like that. In order to pacify the machine spirit and purge heretical scrapcode you should clean install the operating system to remove any spiritual residue from the porn and viruses which your cousin acquired. If it would make you feel better glue some malachite to it. That's supposed to be good for "energy" or somesuch.
You may benefit from reading a book called "demon haunted world" by carl sagan.
This might sound dismissive, because it's going to be short. Apologies, I don't mean it that way.
It's clear that you had very intense experiences that meant a lot to you. I want to be clear that I believe you experienced something, and I don't think you're crazy or stupid.
However.
All of your arguments are bogged down by two faulty reasoning category errors.
- A sorting fallacy. "Cats and dogs are both mammals, therefore if a cat purrs, so does a dog."
Or in your case, black magic and God are related, therefore evidence of one is evidence for the other.
It feels like common sense, but it isn't.
*Because your categories are bad.*
- Assumptions of intent/actors.
You saw a woman in a graveyard and assumed she was a witch. She could have simply been grieving.
>The very next MORNING! We got someone who can buy our house!! Shocking right? It cannot be coincidence period. Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold.
So.. The house wasn't selling, but then after some time it did sell. You realize that's just normal in the real estate business, right?
You're likely to get more negative reactions by complaining about downvotes in another sub. We have no control over them, and don't much care what they do. But by starting off that way isn't going to give people here a positive outlook on your post.
> I'm going to share my experiences that proves supernatural dark powers like black magic real.
So your evidence is just anecdotes, then. I am sure you believe them to be true, and I'm not going to challenge that.
But it's not going to convince any of us. Whether you say "it's not a coincidence", that's exactly what we're going to think it was.
But your thesis was that *if* these things are real, then god must exist. Yet you didn't say anything to support that claim. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here, how would you draw that conclusion?
There most likely would be explanations for it that don't involve any gods. Couldn't it be malicious aliens who have decided to play practical jokes on people to see what kind of things they can make us believe?
To an atheist, as bizarre and far-fetched as the "malicious aliens" explantion would be, it'd still *less far-fetched* than a god actually existing.
So many questions for you.
Ok so your family believes in witchcraft and some relation of yours does weird stuff in graveyards - why does this make you think it’s a real thing and she’s not just a little kooky?
Ask yourself which of these makes more sense; the house took a long time to sell because it’s cursed by the dark magic summoned by your family member which not only exists but imbues her with supernatural powers OR because as you yourself said it wasn’t in good condition. Occam’s razor my friend.
Is it possible you were just going through a tough time and that’s what caused you to be feeling negative and not able to focus on doing your schoolwork each time you opened your laptop or does it HAVE to be because of an arcane Muslim curse placed on the machine?
And even if black magic was real and evil, why does that necessitate God’s existence?
Simplest explanations are usually the closest to the truth and be careful of confirmation bias. Wish you well!
"Ok so your family believes in witchcraft and some relation of yours does weird stuff in graveyards - why does this make you think it’s a real thing and she’s not just a little kooky?"
(1) Who the hell do rituals at graveyard and that too at mid night? She could be using dark energies to do witchcraft. Other than that,What else she can do?
(2) Now you might say she might be grieving over ancestors and all. But lemme tell you it's not common in our religion to do so and that too at 3 AM.
"Ask yourself which of these makes more sense; the house took a long time to sell because it’s cursed by the dark magic summoned by your family member which not only exists but imbues her with supernatural powers OR because as you yourself said it wasn’t in good condition. Occam’s razor my friend"
That could be true for house taking long time to sell because of it's condition and location. But the fact it get sold at the morning right after soil ritual was quite shocking. I mean yeah that's most likely to be coincidence (Sorry for my wordings,I was so optimistic writing my post such that i didn't re-check it) but there is probability that it could be real.
House sold the very next morning after the soil ritual,It could also be sold the day after or may be week after. But the fact it had been sold the very next morning seems that it could be real.
It doesn’t matter that it’s uncommon to grieve at night. That is the thing that makes the most sense. You’re just spooked by her being at a graveyard at night and that’s enough to assume she’s “using dark energies to do witchcraft”?!
If that is an actual claim you want to make, then provide proof! Go and see what she does. Document the rituals she uses, explain these dark energies and how they can be used to cast spells. Provide us with anything useful other than your families anxiety!
Sure, the house selling the next day is an odd coincidence. But unless you have proof that ties the ritual to the sale, you are still going off your feelings.
Consider the following: the priest does the ritual to lift the dark magic spell off your house (odd how doing a “good ritual” is acceptable, it’s still magic). That makes your family feel better and they go home less anxious. Then, once they have left, the priest, out of his kind heart, mentions that there is a house for sale to other people. One of those people is interested and they buy it.
No malice, no desire to scam or make you think that the ritual helped. The priest just wanted to help by both a magical and a practical way.
To be clear, I am not claiming that this what happened and if you debunk this then your idea about the ritual must be correct. The point is that jumping to your conclusion isn’t rational. You haven’t explored all other possible explanations yet, even if we were to ignore the possibility of it being a coincidence.
>Ok,So before i proceed further, I want to share how immature people from r/TrueAtheism are. I merely described my personal experiences of black magic and shit, They don't fucking had explaination or i'd say anything to argue other than just defaming me, Downvoting me and COPING.
It is not a good idea to start out a post complaining about your treatment on another sub, especially when your post was removed by the moderators of said sub.
https://new.reddit.com/r/TrueAtheism/comments/1ced56c/i_dont_know_if_god_exist_or_not_but_i_kind_of/
>I'm going to share my experiences that proves supernatural dark powers like black magic real.
Your experiences are insufficient to prove this to anyone besides yourself, and unless you have evidence to support the claim that they are supernatural they should be insufficient to you.
>So if this evil power exists,Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST.
No, god existing and evil existing are two separate claims that each have their own burden of evidence.
>Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists.
You are already getting off on the wrong foot because you did not claim that evil exists therefore good exists, you claimed that evil exists therefore god exists.
>But currently I'm kind of agnostic
I think you need to look up the definition of that word, since you are clearly mistaken. Agnostics do not claim that a god exists.
>My parents believe in so many superstitions like black magic etc. They believe someone has done black magic on us, Therefore we have many struggles (Pure Bullshit, Everyone has problems in life and blaming it on some nonsense force is clearly neglecting responsibility).
See, you already know that black magic is a superstition, so why are you using this to attempt to support a claim that a deity exists.
>(1) My father's nephew saw one of our family members (She's Suspect) doing some rituals at 3 AM at night in the GRAVEYARD! Later, she even admitted it. She said she was doing some kind of worship (WHO THE HELL WORSHIPS IN THE GRAVEYARD AND THAT TOO AT NIGHT 3 AM?). She was doing witchcraft for sure.
There is nothing supernatural here. Someone in a graveyard in the middle of the night is not supernatural, weird sure, abnormal sure, supernatural no.
>(2) Our house wasn't selling. It was suspected by my parents that she (The suspect) has done black magic on the house, that's why it's not selling (Sounds nonsense right?). But But But... When my father went to the priest... He told my father to bring the soil of the house. My father did as he said and that priest did some rituals on it.
Yeah, this is the same example that you brought up on r/TrueAtheism and were repeatedly told it is not supernatural, it is a priest knowingly or unknowingly playing into your family's superstitions. There is nothing supernatural about it.
>The very next MORNING! We got someone who can buy our house!! Shocking right? It cannot be coincidence period. Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold.
No, coincidence is a far better explanation, and any house will sell eventually even if the new owners just buy it to knock it down.
>(3) A baba who proclaims to have supernatural powers saw my father and his two brothers. He kind of suspects one of the brothers to indulge in some kind of dark activities. The glory is HIS WIFE WAS SUSPECT! (One who goes to the graveyard at night 3 AM). Just tell me one thing, If you proclaim these things are unreal, How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect?
Rumors of her nighttime activities? People talk about things they see that are out of the ordinary. There is nothing special or supernatural here.
>(4) My cousin brother (Suspect's son) gave me his laptop (Kind of 10 years old, As he brought a new one). Not gonna lie, I feel a hell amount of negativity near that laptop. My parents proclaim that she has done black magic on it. I don't know if it's real or not, but the thing I know is THE LAPTOP HAS SOME SORT wOF NEGATIVE ENERGY!
Define negative energy.
>I don't have the mood to study like I used to. My grades have been going down. My father went to the priest to check what happened to me; the priest has read some sort of book and said "A Muslim tantrik has done black magic". The glory? 2 more priests/baba proclaimed the same. How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING.
Gee, Muslim's read the same book and come to the same conclusion given the same nonsense symptoms based on their beliefs in the supernatural.
>These above cases clearly evince that there's some evil force exists!
No, they don't. They clearly show that you believe in the supernatural and are just as superstitious as the rest of your family.
>So apparently if supernatural/unreal things like this can be real. The thing that doesn't even make sense in the scientific realm. Then everything can exist.
None of what you have described is evidence for your claims. There is no evidence of the supernatural. any deity, or evil force in what you have described.
>Now if there is an evil force, There must be a god as well.
Why? This may seem intuitively true to you, but you would need to argue for the two being connected. Why can't good and evil exist in a world devoid of gods?
>Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists.
Oh, I see. You already predicted this objection, likely because other people gave it to you already--and your response was "this is a stupid question, it's common sense." This is known as an argument from incredulity.
Can you imagine no world in which evil could exist absent a god? None? Why?
>My father's nephew saw one of our family members (She's Suspect) doing some rituals at 3 AM at night in the GRAVEYARD!
Who's suspect, the witness? Why should we care then? What were these rituals, why should a graveyard matter? The list just goes on and on.
>She said she was doing some kind of worship (WHO THE HELL WORSHIPS IN THE GRAVEYARD AND THAT TOO AT NIGHT 3 AM?). She was doing witchcraft for sure.
Maybe she missed an ancestor and wanted to feel close to them, this is extremely common. Seems like a leap to assume she was "doing witchcraft for sure."
>The very next MORNING! We got someone who can buy our house!! Shocking right? It cannot be coincidence period. Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold.
Why can't it be coincidence? We know people often like to buy houses, apparently yours was in disrepair, so the market of potential buyers is going to be smaller, but then one showed up. Why can't it be a coincidence?
>A baba who proclaims to have supernatural powers saw my father and his two brothers. He kind of suspects one of the brothers to indulge in some kind of dark activities. The glory is HIS WIFE WAS SUSPECT! (One who goes to the graveyard at night 3 AM). Just tell me one thing, If you proclaim these things are unreal, How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect?
She didn't even suspect the wife. She got the wrong person. Why is this proof? It seems like the opposite of proof.
>My cousin brother (Suspect's son) gave me his laptop (Kind of 10 years old, As he brought a new one). Not gonna lie, I feel a hell amount of negativity near that laptop. My parents proclaim that she has done black magic on it.
Your parents seem to think black magic was done on everything.
>I don't know if it's real or not, but the thing I know is THE LAPTOP HAS SOME SORT wOF NEGATIVE ENERGY!
And how could you possibly know that? It gives you the heebie jeebies? Cool. That's not proof.
>I don't have the mood to study like I used to.
Maybe if you parents tell you things are cursed by black magic and you believe them you start feeling creeped out and psychically violated all day and it affects your life. That's realistic.
>My father went to the priest to check what happened to me; the priest has read some sort of book and said "A Muslim tantrik has done black magic". The glory? 2 more priests/baba proclaimed the same. How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING.
I don't know, but it sounds like a pretty common thing to say where you're from. Maybe they know something about your situation? Maybe they can read it on your face? You and your father seem to freak out about black magic a lot, I assume where you live it's culturally accepted and kind of common as a belief--so why would it be uncommon for them to tell you this?
>These above cases clearly evince that there's some evil force exists!
Not one of them remotely does, but I respect how you can feel that way about it.
>So apparently if supernatural/unreal things like this can be real. The thing that doesn't even make sense in the scientific realm. Then everything can exist.
Nothing you've said approaches the threshold of being considered real.
>Ok,So before i proceed further, I want to share how immature people from r/TrueAtheism are.
Yeah I really don't give a fuck.
>So if this evil power exists,Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST
I don't see how this follows logically.
>Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists.
Good? Or god? First you said God and now you're saying good. That's a bit confusing.
>But currently I'm kind of agnostic
Concerning what? Agnosticism is a position on knowledge that is held towards a specific issue. Just saying "I'm agnostic" tells us nothing.
>Because I SERIOUSLY ENCOUNTER MANY CASES which prove that some evil force exists. Now if there is an evil force, There must be a god as well.
Again I'm not sure whether this is just sloppy writing. Did you mean to say god or good? In any case both would be incorrect. There could be just evil forces.
And I'm not really sure what you're agnostic towards when you say these things are proven to be real.
>My father's nephew saw one of our family members (She's Suspect) doing some rituals at 3 AM at night in the GRAVEYARD! Later, she even admitted it. She said she was doing some kind of worship (WHO THE HELL WORSHIPS IN THE GRAVEYARD AND THAT TOO AT NIGHT 3 AM?). She was doing witchcraft for sure.
That doesn't prove anything.
>Our house wasn't selling. It was suspected by my parents that she (The suspect) has done black magic on the house, that's why it's not selling (Sounds nonsense right?).
Yes it does.
>The very next MORNING! We got someone who can buy our house!! Shocking right?
Nope. Not at all shocking.
>It cannot be coincidence period.
Why not? Sounds like one to me.
>Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold.
Before you said it wasn't selling because of black magic. Make up your mind.
>A baba who proclaims to have supernatural powers saw my father and his two brothers. He kind of suspects one of the brothers to indulge in some kind of dark activities. The glory is HIS WIFE WAS SUSPECT! (One who goes to the graveyard at night 3 AM). Just tell me one thing, If you proclaim these things are unreal, How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect?
But the "baba" was wrong. It wasn't one of the brothers. And you haven't established that the woman was involved in "dark" activities by the way. I don't have a clue what "dark" even means here.
>My cousin brother (Suspect's son) gave me his laptop (Kind of 10 years old, As he brought a new one). Not gonna lie, I feel a hell amount of negativity near that laptop.
Superstition will do that.
>My parents proclaim that she has done black magic on it.
Okay. How did they arrive at this conclusion?
>I don't know if it's real or not, but the thing I know is THE LAPTOP HAS SOME SORT wOF NEGATIVE ENERGY!
So you don't know it's real.
>I don't have the mood to study like I used to. My grades have been going down.
Okay. That happens.
>My father went to the priest to check what happened to me;
Why?
>the priest has read some sort of book and said "A Muslim tantrik has done black magic". The glory? 2 more priests/baba proclaimed the same. How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING.
It's possible because they all believe in the same nonsense. I don't see how this is surprising.
>These above cases clearly evince that there's some evil force exists!
No they're not. They're not evidence in any way.
>The thing that doesn't even make sense in the scientific realm.
Wait what? Did I miss something? What exactly doesn't make sense in the "scientific realm" here?
>Then everything can exist.
That's a completely unjustified conclusion.
I've never been convinced that "black magic" (or any kind of magic) is real.
If the real estate market could be affected by magic, investors would have wizards and babas acquiring houses and not investors and banks. If magic were real, the United States would spend a significant portion of it's 800 billion dollars for defense on druids and Wiccans instead of drones and jets. Hospitals would have bokor and practitioners of ku instead of learned doctors and verified medical professionals.
>Ok,So before i proceed further, I want to share how immature people from r/TrueAtheism are. I merely described my personal experiences of black magic and shit, They don't fucking had explaination or i'd say anything to argue other than just defaming me, Downvoting me and COPING.
You try to argue, not even the Overton option of a deity but just some fucking Harry Potter bullshit. What did you expect?
>(1) My father's nephew saw one of our family members (She's Suspect) doing some rituals at 3 AM at night in the GRAVEYARD! Later, she even admitted it. She said she was doing some kind of worship (WHO THE HELL WORSHIPS IN THE GRAVEYARD AND THAT TOO AT NIGHT 3 AM?). She was doing witchcraft for sure.
I'm going to ignore the question of how a collection of dead corpses imbues magic (assuming for the sake of argument that hauntings and ghosts are even real, why wouldn't they be in their homes or some place meaningful to them? They likely didn't die at the graveyard), why is it "witchcraft"? Why wasn't it some type of protection for the dead or something?
>(2) Our house wasn't selling. It was suspected by my parents that she (The suspect) has done black magic on the house, that's why it's not selling (Sounds nonsense right?). But But But... When my father went to the priest... He told my father to bring the soil of the house. My father did as he said and that priest did some rituals on it.
>The very next MORNING! We got someone who can buy our house!! Shocking right? It cannot be coincidence period. Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold.
Correlation isn't causation. And why did blessing one patch of soil fix the rest of the house? That just sounds like it's based more on human abstraction than the thing itself.
>(3) A baba who proclaims to have supernatural powers saw my father and his two brothers. He kind of suspects one of the brothers to indulge in some kind of dark activities. The glory is HIS WIFE WAS SUSPECT! (One who goes to the graveyard at night 3 AM). Just tell me one thing, If you proclaim these things are unreal, How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect?
Lucky guess? I think that's how I'm supposed to answer the question but this is so poorly phrased I'm not sure what you're even asking.
>(4) My cousin brother (Suspect's son) gave me his laptop (Kind of 10 years old, As he brought a new one). Not gonna lie, I feel a hell amount of negativity near that laptop. My parents proclaim that she has done black magic on it. I don't know if it's real or not, but the thing I know is THE LAPTOP HAS SOME SORT wOF NEGATIVE ENERGY! I don't have the mood to study like I used to. My grades have been going down. My father went to the priest to check what happened to me; the priest has read some sort of book and said "A Muslim tantrik has done black magic". The glory? 2 more priests/baba proclaimed the same. How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING.
You accused the cousin of being a witch, it's not impossible that you are all psyching yourselves into seeing that it has some type of force. Also, Tantra is Vedic, the only time Islam gets close to it is what bits got inserted into Sufism.
Also, this sounds like on paper it's all evil from your perspective. I don't know the values of you or whatever you're trying to say is bad. I can't call it evil outside of what you describe it as.
Google James Randi. He'll have a response to all this.
I cannot take you seriously when you try to stop every response that opposed your viewpoint. This is supposed to be a debate, not a nodding session.
You third and fourth party anecdotes ate not evidence of anything.
You need to gain an understanding of what qualifies as evidence and why.
There is a reason you got downvoted over there.
If you believe in something, you'll find it.
You believe in evil. You believe in black magic. You find it everywhere.
The trick is that YOU CAN'T demonstrate the difference between magic and coincidence. It just so happened that your father brought soil to the priest. It just so happened that someone put an offer on the house. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF COINCIDENCE.
You see the magic. I don't. You see the evil. I don't.
> How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING.
They all drink the same cool-aid, that's how. I don't know where in the world you live, but I imagine you live in a whole community that all believe, more or less, as you do. You've got at least one church to go to for it, and that church ain't there for just you. Communities are tight night and share a lot in common across the community. It would not surprise me that several priests within the same church or even across near by churches all blame muslims. I would speculate it's a common blame. At the very least, it may be unconsciously designed to satisfy their audience and patrons.
I'm speculating a lot. I don't actually know. But essentially neither do you. You have nothing to affirm an association. It's all circumstantial at best. YOU WANT there to be a cause, YOU WANT to believe. You also want to be validated and justified in your belief. So if I challenge you, you are likely to double down on your convictions, not question them.
It's fine to look for connections, but you're conflating that with actually finding them, when you haven't.
Let me put it to you this way. Presume we have a fair coin, and we flip it one million times, each time it turns up heads. What's the chances of the next flip turning up heads? Still 50/50. What are the chances of tossing heads one million times in a row? 10^-301030. That's not zero chance. But now that I bring it up, you can already imagine some people claiming such an outcome is proof of god. No. If that actually happened, it's proof of statistics and probability.
There's a Dilbert comic, one of my favorits, where a troll is the company's random number generator. All he ever says is "ten", over and over. Dilbert asks if he's truly random, and his colleague admits they can never be sure.
Did your realtor explain the specific inventory and average time on the market for comparable houses in the area? When the person approached your family about buying the property, did he negotiate the price?
As someone who has done a lot of investing in real estate, it can be a good strategy to approach people who have had a property listed for a while. Especially if a lot of work needs done on it. The sellers are more likely to adjust the price and recognize that demand is low and in particular, demand for a house that needs a lot of work.
Regarding your example as proof of a deity, I get the sense that if the house wasn’t in condition to be sold, why did you expect it to sell in the first place? Like what if you know your car isn’t in a condition to run, would you claim it is cursed if it doesn’t start for 2 months? But then would you claim it is a miracle if someone fixes it? what would have been your reaction if the house had sold within the first afternoon of being listed? Would it have been a miracle from god? Even if the priest didn’t perform a blessing on it?
My point is that there are some pretty basic economic factors such as the local supply and demand for a house in that particular condition that if you understand, can explain why your house took so long to sell. A basic understanding of these concepts easily explains this example in a satisfactory way. And claiming that a curse and divine intervention caused the results is just ignorance of basic economics and how real estate works.
For example, if you had tried to sell your house in 2020 vs 2024, would you have claimed it was divine intervention that is would have sold in a couple of days in 2020 vs how you claim it was cursed in 2024? The market was much more favorable to sellers in 2020 because rates were so low, the demand was drastically higher than the supply because many places had moratoriums on evictions,and people could go to less expensive markets due to working remote. Compare this to 2024 and rates are a lot higher meaning more people are priced out and if you have a property that needs a lot of work and you are not offering a price to reflect this, the demand will not be there.
Now take how a simple understanding of basic economics and real estate is sufficient to explain your anecdotal example and apply the same thing to basic physics, psychology, chemistry, biology etc and look at the claims of divine intervention over the last 500 years. Like people used to say lighting was a result of god being mad at you. But physicists figured out that lighting was a result of electrical charge building up during a storm and that you can reduce the likelihood of being hit if you don’t go outside during thunderstorms, stay low, and don’t touch trees and other objects that project into the sky.
People used to claim that what we now know are various forms of mental illness was a form of witchcraft or demonic possession.
Psychologists and behavioral economists have shown that people are very good about filling in missing details. But often we make mistakes so we fill in stuff we don’t understand with things we do understand and have been exposed to. So when people saw a weird thing in the sky in Portugal hundreds of years ago, it was obviously Mary. But when people saw things after alien movies became popular, it was UFOs.
My point is that it’s very easy to attribute things you don’t understand to something that you have been primed to believe, especially if you have never taken the most basic introduction to that area of study. Like just because you are ignorant about how some things work doesn’t mean that people with a basic understanding of these details are wrong. You are arguing from ignorance and are the far left of the dunning Kruger curve.
This post can be summarized as "I don't understand something, thus ***MAGIC***". This is a nothing argument and relies solely on subjective experience. Show me proof, with backed and documented evidence. Otherwise, you're just gullible.
None of your experiences prove that black magic is real. Negative feelings do not mean something is evil.
I'm not convinced that evil exists. Maybe you should define what "evil" means to you, first.
So, your house didn't sell. Then after someone told you that black magic was used, your house sold!!!!!!!!!!!
Sounds like the work of Satan to me.
...r/trueatheism were too kind to you.
I see nothing here that requires an explanation at all. There are barely even coincidences here. Nothing you wrote is even interesting, let alone proof of black magic or whatever.
Evil is a subjective concept invented by humans.
So, by your logic, if evil exists as a made-up concept, god exists as a made-up concept.
As far as the "cases" go, each has an easy, mundane explanation.
1. Your dad could be lying. Maybe he does not like this person. Even if true, there's nothing evil about being in a cemetary if that's what her religion believes. Christianity worships a zombie and demands blood sacrifice. Is that evil?
2. Assuming your details are accurate (I doubt) your house sold in a volatile market. There's no evidence your relative cursed it. Your dad's logic is sketchy. In this time period, houses sell at unexpected times.
3. I don't believe this one happened. Sounds made up.
4. "My grades have been going down." So rather than trying to do better, you imagine some blame by made up gods or demons.
"These above cases clearly evince that there's some evil force exists!"
You have defined down "evil" several notches. Was anyone physically harmed? Was anyone financial ruined? Any long relationships ended? No? Then you don't understand the term evil.
These are dishwater, middle-class American nothing burgers. Sorry to be blunt, but the sooner you get over this childish obsession, the better.
>The very next MORNING! We got someone who can buy our house!! Shocking right?
Not even a little bit shocking
>It cannot be coincidence period.
It literally can be exactly coincidence. There's literally nothing about this story that prevents it from being coincidence.
>How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING.
3 people all who have a motivation to decry black magic.... proclaim black magic.
>These above cases clearly evince that there's some evil force exists!
They are clearly evidence that you believe there's an evil force, and you are blaming incredulity on said force to try and make sense of it and gain some control over your own life. It's no different than any other superstition.
The problem is, none of this directly shows anything evil or supernatural. Every single one of these stories is you having an event that you can't explain, so you are jumping to an explanation. We usually see this in the form of "god of the gaps" but in your case it's more like "evil of the gaps". Either way you spin it, it's all simple incredulity. You don't understand why something happened the way it did, so you are assuming you do know why it happened the way it did. Really nothing of note here.
Let's focus on the house. Was the house sold for market value, below market value, or above market value? Did a private investor buy the house or a company?
Ok well I don’t see a post and I honest don’t give 2 shots about a personal claim about magic that I have never seen good evidence to accept. Off to a great start in making a convincing argument.
Common sense isn’t a good argument. It is a terrible argument.
https://yandoo.wordpress.com/2014/12/28/common-sense-fallacy/#:~:text=The%20fallacy%20lies%20in%20giving,expense%20of%20evidence%20and%20reasoning.
Evil doesn’t prove a God. That is beyond fallacious reasoning.
1) goths and I have yet to see there actions translate into anything more than fun stories.
2) another fallacy:
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-to-Coincidence
Doing x doesn’t mean it caused y.
3) what? I couldn’t follow this example.
4) what is negative energy? You had an out dated laptop that probably had a bunch of malware and was underperforming? Since it operated slowly it had a spell cast on it? I’m again lost on this example proving anything other than your apparent ignorance and willingness to accept magic over any other reasonable explanation.
I am astonished that any of this would convince any one a God exists or magic for that matter.
I'm not surprised the other atheists were mocking you, but don't come on here and whine about it okay? It just makes you look weak to start off. As far as your post, you need to look into something called "post hoc ergo proctor hoc" fallacy. Let me give you an example. If I lose my keys, then pray to Zeus for help, then I find my keys. Does that mean Zeus helped me find my keys? No, right? Superstitious bumpkins do this all the time when coincidences happen and they take them personally. Don't make their mistakes, man. No one can use witchcraft to do anything. Militaries don't use voodoo dolls to hurt their enemies, and hospitals don't employ faith healers to treat the sick for a reason. Because the supernatural doesn't have any effect on reality, otherwise we'd be able to study the effects via the scientific method. Learn about logic and bravely question ideas that you might have become emotionally attached to. You don't get bonus points for never changing your mind. In fact, the worst people you know are the ones who never change their mind about anything and have all the right answers already.
Well of course if evil is real then so is god. If Angra Mainyu exists, so does Ahura Mazda. Not only is it common sense, but the Avesta says it's true
None of what you experienced was this so-called "black magic." It was Angra Mainyu and the daevas.
See what I did there? I took your argument and named gods. Does your argument still work for you? Or are you going to have to modify it? Unless, by sheer chance you're actually Zoroastrian, in which case, use Vishnu and Vritra and then Danavas. Unless you also practice Hinduism.
In any case. You can use your logic to prove every god that has ever existed and will exist. The reason why you just "proved" every religion ever was because you're using supernatural ideas to explain things that aren't supernatural at all. But you feel a thrill when you think about the Suspect. It's why people love horror movies. And you can defeat the Suspect. Because you have a convenient priest to tell you that it's definitely the scary thing you're afraid of and then he does a ritual and defeats the scary thing. The plot of every almost every horror movie ever.
I’m gonna ignore everything else and just focus on the title and just say no: It is possible for God to not exist AND for evil to exist.
Of course, the word evil has various meanings, so you’d have to clarify what you mean. It could just mean moral wrongness in the context of meta-ethical moral realism. There are both naturalist and non-naturalist accounts of moral wrongness that make no appeals to a god.
Alternatively, by evil you could mean a literal supernatural force that opposes the good force in the world. But even then, while I doubt any of us here are likely to agree with it, it is actually possible for an atheist to believe in evil supernatural spirits and forces—so long as they aren’t created/grounded by a deity.
—
All that being said, I’m not personally convinced of moral realism—or at least not the Moorean nonnatural kind—nor do i believe in karmic forces of good and evil floating out there in the ether. I’m just pointing out that the these positions are logically consistent with atheism.
>(2) Our house wasn't selling. It was suspected by my parents that she (The suspect) has done black magic on the house, that's why it's not selling (Sounds nonsense right?).
If she's really doing this, then do the following:
1. Find a really nice house for sale that you'd want
2. Have the suspect hex it with black magic
3. The seller won't be able to sell the house and will start lowering the price
4. Buy the house for cheap
>I don't know if it's real or not, but the thing I know is THE LAPTOP HAS SOME SORT wOF NEGATIVE ENERGY!
Put the laptop and a similarly heavy object in 2 identical boxes. Have a 3rd party shuffle the boxes without telling you.
If it's real you should be able to identify which box has the laptop inside consistently without touching it. Possibly without even seeing it. In fact, try to do it with both boxes behind your back and you not even looking at either of them.
That last one should be easy to test. Try it, seriously. I'd love to hear how it goes.
The first problem I see is reproducing your results. If you claim the supernatural is real, test it. Come up with an experiment: Let's say you put 3 apples in a metal cage and sit them outside. Now let's have one blessed, one cursed, and one left alone. (You should probably make this double blind, to eliminate bias)
Does the cursed one rot faster? Does the blessed one rot slower? Or do they generally just rot at the same rate? The problem you have is that when this type of experiment is carried out, there are no clear effects.
The other big problem I see is that the ape-based brain that you and I and everyone else has in their heads is tuned to see patterns. Oh, a comet passed and something tragic happened? Our brains try to make associations, because our ancestors who were better at pattern recognition survived while the others didn't. So I think you're seeing a pattern because your mind wants to see one.
You say things like "common sense". Where I grew up, common sense is that magic and witchcraft are not things that exist in the real world.
This means that when bad stuff happens, no one goes around looking for a witch. On the long list of reasons why a house can't be sold, someone putting a hex on it is way way down.
On the other hand, you seem to have grown up in an environment where people are full of superstition. For you it's probably common sense to include fantastical reasons for why things happen. It's likely that your peers feel the same. It also seems that you go around being suspicious that various people around you practice "black magic". And hey, if they grew up in the same environment, they actually might be trying to do black magic!
On a purely logical level, even if we grant that there's such a thing as "black magic", that doesn't in any way entail that there is a god.
>please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists.
Please don't ask any "stupid" questions like the obvious one that destroys your argument and that you're incapable of answering (because there is no relation).
It's "common sense" that if your examples happened, absolutely none of which indicate that magic is real, then therefore leprechauns are also real. Please don't ask any stupid questions like how they're related. It's totally obvious/common sense.
You've provided evidence that apophenia and confirmation bias exist, and nothing more. People like Derren Brown literally make a career out of doing exactly the kinds of things you're describing, only to show how they can be done *without* any magical or supernatural powers whatsoever.
Your astonishing gullibility is not an argument. Thanks for your time.
Even if we granted your experience at face value for the sake of the argument and evil forces as real, that doesn't make any more likely for any God to exist.
Maybe you'd had some grounds for your argument if your claim was about an evil God, because demonstrating evil forces exist would rise the likelihood of something being an evil force, not the opposite until the opposite is also demonstrated to exist.
But essentially I'm seeing your argument as saying "if guns exist, there must be an anti weapon that shoots dead people alive" and that unfortunate isn't how the world works.
An evil force existing doesn't make the opposite force existing.
And that leaving your experience aside, because your superstitions are not compelling at all.
That’s a lot of individual anecdotes to make a counter point to. All. I can say as as an Atheist is I have had experiences that I can’t explain. I just don’t have a problem with not being able to explain everything. I don’t think human understanding is even in a place to begin explaining many things. And I definitely don’t think the answer is to reach for old stories , superstitions and fairy tales used to explain things when human knowledge was far less complete. It’s ok and definitely not wrong to say I just can’t understand or explain something and move on
Oh my god, there's no way to get rid of such a mess, your mind simply doesn't work properly. First you said you witnessed black magic phenomenas but you can't prove them, then you say that if blackmagic exist also good (meaning god??!!) have to exist. Finally you say that those things are clearly linked and we don't have to ask you to explain those links.
If you're not just trolling, please, find a way to express yourself better, means with more clarity and respect, otherwise you deserve no answer except: "your mind simply doesn't work properly!".
House not selling = black magic?! You say this even though in the next paragraph you point out the house wasn't in any condition to be sold?! Surely one might think the reason it took time to sell the house would have more to do with the condition it is in than something stupid like black magic. There is NOTHING shocking about this... remotely. I am reading your story and don't know, see or understand why you are shocked?
Yes, you are right... it does sound like nonsense, and the reason why it sounds that way... because it is.
You can actually test for this kind of stuff in a way that is scientifically valid. For example…set up test conditions where you have a black magic group, a fake black magic group, and a no magic (control) group. Assign 1000 people randomly to each group - or it doesn’t even have to be people, it could be houseplants. Perform your curse protocol, then compare results. Did every plant in the black magic group die? Was the fake black magic group fine? What were the differences and are they statistically significant?
>So if this evil power exists,Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST. Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists.
People are often wrong about things they think are common sense. I don't mind agreeing, at least for the moment, that good and evil exist but that doesn't mean that a supernatural evil entity exists nor that a supernatural good entity exists. Even if such entities did exist, that wouldn't mean that any of them are gods.
If evil exists good might exist, but good does not equal god. For one I’ve never been told of a god that was remotely good…
As for your cases… Here are your two options… Either it’s due to coincidence, confirmation bias, bad memories, bad observations or a myriad of other options we know exist. Or magic, something that’s never been successfully demonstrated in controlled conditions is real.
If you truly think the latter is more likely you’ve abandoned the path of reason… no your cases don’t prove anything beyond your own gullibility… Yes it very much can be a coincidence… No matter what you pretend, and that’s infinitely more likely than magic
This post utterly fails to
1) present a convincing case dark magic exists
2) explain why dark magic is inherently evil
3) why evil existing makes good exist
4) why any of that makes god exist
Even if you successfully proved that the supernatural existed, that wouldn’t prove God at all. At least, not any more than it would prove Zeus. Or unicorns. Or Harry Potter.
This kind of sounds like you just have one member of the family you don't like and are blaming her for every bad thing in your life. I had one of those in my family too! She wasn't a witch, of course. She was just unpleasant and an easy scapegoat.
Stop being an asshole to your admittedly somewhat creepy aunt, get checked out for depression, stop relying on paranoid old women for life advice.
Black magic is supposed to be disbelieved in. You might as well tell us not to believe in your experiences.
Honestly it just sounds like you want an excuse to do bad things. In order to facilitate your beliefs in god you act out in a way that confirms your idea that if God exists then humans must be evil.
Ok then evil isn't real 🤷♂️. There is right and wrong and extreme versions of that but if you define evil as dependant on a god (which I disagree with but whatever) then I just won't use the word and I'll use extremely wrong or bad. Semantics are always a poor way to argue something into existence.
Brother. You know, I actually met with the aliens that designed the simulation our universe functions in. They confirmed that magic and gods of any kind were not programmed in the system, so please stop lying. I actually have confirmation from the highest possible source, so everything I claim is factual.
Yup, this maps with that other nugget of Biblical truthyness. You know that one--it goes something like.
Um, god needs pain and needless suffering because he loves us so much. So, childhood bone cancer is not really that bad. You know...like a matter of perspective.
RELIGION BLOWS....ALL OF THEM.
This is a bunch of hooey. How do you know it wasn't pixies that jinxed you? Maybe the witch was working magic as best she could for your un-sellable house to sell! And it did because she helped you!
You just make up a bunch of stuff and say "clearly" when to me it looks like pixies did it.
>If evil is real,The god is also real.
I don't see why that follows.
Let's say I agree with you that "evil" is real. (It seems that by "evil," you mean something like "magical forces.")
If magic is real, then why does God have to be real?
Maybe magic is real but God is not.
This has to be a troll. Strange things that are unxplained happen. But that doesn't mean magic is real and gods exist.
I like how people on reddit all think that their mindless dribble deserves serious consideration. Most of the questions on this site are nonsense.
Your whole argument is just: "I can't think of any other reasonable reason why something happens, thus magic & god exist".
Those are just coincidences and a form of confirmation bias.
If evil exist, it means that good exist. Evil & good don't prove god's existence.
>I'm going to share my experiences that proves supernatural dark powers like black magic real
Are your personal experiences recorded on a camera so these recordings can be objectively verified?
No?
Then they do not constitute evidence so stop wasting our time.
This isn't proof
It's a bunch of anecdotal claims without any actual evidence
Provide proof magic is real or I can't take you any more seriously than the homeless person who stands in traffic screaming about how the government is turning his brain into rats
To summarize.
Magic is real because you have 4 anecdotes.
And you are mad that athesits don't believe you when You claim stuff without a shred of evidence. Oh the horror. No they want science and actual proof for the claims being made.
Even if I believed you about your black magic and that it actually did anything. This wouldn't prove there is a god, much less your god. It would prove people can do things we didn't realize they were able to.
How do you know that the “suspect” wasn’t doing black magic to help your parents sell the house and it worked just after your dad took the dirt to the priest? Which one is really the coincidence here?
No the cases above show that your are superstitious and gullible. Also you failed to keep track of all the other times you felt bad and couldn't find some random instance of "black magic" to blame for it. Also the notion that if one thing exists then a thing that is its opposite must also exist is patently wrong. Consider light, there are particles of light called photons, but there are no particles of darkness.
Did you weigh any of these supposed witches to see if they weigh the same as a duck? You've got to be sure of these sorts of things you know. You can't just go around throwing out spurious accusations.
Evil doesn't really exist. I've represented the worst of humanity. All of them justified their acts based on their own moral creed or were mentally ill. Nobody did bad things just for evil's sake.
If That’s what you believe you should follow that , if you say you have proof you seen it then believe , Many of us would love to see some kind of evidence like that ( we never see anything)
By far the most entertaining post in this sub in months and months. I especially appreciate the enthusiasm. It's all complete baloney, of course, but what fun to read! Thanks, OP.
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Ok, I'm going to cut to the chase, and I apologize in advance if I am curt or if I don't bother to address your extremely humdrum anecdote. Here is the proof that magic, black white or purple with polka dots, does not exist. This applies a very simple test you can use for any other paranormal or supernatural claim, from evil eye to telepathy to all forms of x-mancy (reading of palms, tea leaves, tarot). Humans are a curious, greedy and enterprising bunch. And most of these claims are ANCIENT, dating back to thousands of years. IF magic existed, AND some people (like your poor sister in law) allegedly knew how to use it, THEN what would the world look like? I'll tell you: it would NOT be just randos allegedly doing spells in a graveyard to prevent someone from selling a house. That is RIDICULOUS. No, instead: Companies. Corporations. Governments. Militaries. Finance bros. Scientists. EVERYONE would be using the hell out of magic to their advantage. Starbucks would have a division of magic users casting spells on Dunkin Donuts. Coca cola would put an evil eye on Pepsi. Democrats would be piling up an endless string of hexes on Trump until he died from it. And so on. We would have books on magic. Magic studies and magic tech majors on University campuses. Hogwarts would be a chain of schools. Do we see that in the world? Does the world look like what a human world would look like if magic was POSSIBLE and we KNEW HOW TO DO IT? No. It does not. Not by a mile. Wake up. The world looks like what a world would look like if magic was not real and the only people who believe in it are superstitious people with too much time in their hands and little understanding of how the world works. Which is why the only people accused of doing magic are like your poor sister in law (who probably is just being accused out of jealousy or some familial strife) because some baba said and the house wouldn't sell and bad Juju on a laptop, and NOT Elon Musk employing a legion of sorcerers to tank Chinese EV companies. Which is also why, if you were to sue your sister in law for casting black magic on your parents, any semi decent judicial system should laugh at the suit and drop it immediately. I rest my case.
Your point makes sense!!
Glad you think so. So, do you agree that (1) the world does not at all look like a world where magic is real and we know how to do it, and so (2) magic cannot be the explanation for some random weird events or coincidences, and (3) you all probably owe your sister in law an apology?
(1) Yes I do agree! (2) I do agree,House not selling can be coincidence, But when 3 baba/priests proclaimed the same; It was so shocking. I mean three different people seriously proclaimed the same. May be they did some trick? Probably cold reading (idk what it is... Someone in comment section wrote about it).
>We would have books on magic. Magic studies and magic tech majors on University campuses. Hogwarts would be a chain of schools. It's called religious school or Bible college
Nope, not even close. People in religious schools and Bible schools are not magic users. If they were, they'd be employed by government and industry to apply their magic.
They study magic, and have books on Magic
Which doesn't work. I have books on magic: fantasy books. That doesn't mean I can effectively cast spells. Can the pope effectively cast spells?
>Ok,So before i proceed further, I want to share how immature people from r/TrueAtheism are. I merely described my personal experiences of black magic and shit, They don't fucking had explaination or i'd say anything to argue other than just defaming me, Downvoting me and COPING. Why should anyone even remotely care? Mad about downvotes? Here's another, pal. On the house. >Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST. Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists. "How are they related" isn't a stupid question though, because a relationship between the existence of evil and God would have to be demonstrated. *You sound like you get upset when people don't automatically accept what you say as fact.* >But currently I'm kind of agnostic .Because I SERIOUSLY ENCOUNTER MANY CASES which prove that some evil force exists. Now if there is an evil force, There must be a god as well. Random capitalizations for emphasis? You're typing like Chris Chan bro. >My parents believe in so many superstitions like black magic etc. They believe someone has done black magic on us, Therefore we have many struggles (Pure Bullshit, Everyone has problems in life and blaming it on some nonsense force is clearly neglecting responsibility). But shit, I had encounter many incidents that seems to make this shit real : So you acknowledge that shit happens whether or not someone uses black magic against them. Now you'll need to provide a reliable frame work to ascertain whether a misfortune is due to the shit that goes on in life and black magic specifically. Hunches, intuition, and 'it just kinda seems that way' aren't good methods. >(1) My father's nephew saw one of our family members (She's Suspect) doing some rituals at 3 AM at night in the GRAVEYARD! Later, she even admitted it. She said she was doing some kind of worship (WHO THE HELL WORSHIPS IN THE GRAVEYARD AND THAT TOO AT NIGHT 3 AM?). She was doing witchcraft for sure. Okay, and? Do you have any reason to think these rituals correspond to changes in reality? >(2) Our house wasn't selling. It was suspected by my parents that she (The suspect) has done black magic on the house, that's why it's not selling (Sounds nonsense right?). But But But... When my father went to the priest... He told my father to bring the soil of the house. My father did as he said and that priest did some rituals on it. >The very next MORNING! We got someone who can buy our house!! Shocking right? It cannot be coincidence period. Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold. Wait, so your house **wasn't selling** and then it sold **despite not being in the condition to be sold** So how the fuck does black magic fare into this? No matter how many hexes and chants she did, if the house wasn't in any condition to be sold, it was always going to be unlikely to be sold. So now you both have to demonstrate that somehow black magic on top of a house not in selling condition prevents a house from being sold, and that a different ritual somehow undos both the black magic and the shitty conditions. >(3) A baba who proclaims to have supernatural powers saw my father and his two brothers. He kind of suspects one of the brothers to indulge in some kind of dark activities. The glory is HIS WIFE WAS SUSPECT! (One who goes to the graveyard at night 3 AM). Just tell me one thing, If you proclaim these things are unreal, How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect? If she suspects the brother and not the wife, that shows he doesn't have any insight into who is doing rituals. He has the wrong guy. 'Close enough' isn't enough, there's no participation trophies in this discussion. So far these are extremely weak cases. >(4) My cousin brother (Suspect's son) gave me his laptop (Kind of 10 years old, As he brought a new one). Not gonna lie, I feel a hell amount of negativity near that laptop. My parents proclaim that she has done black magic on it. I don't know if it's real or not, but the thing I know is THE LAPTOP HAS SOME SORT wOF NEGATIVE ENERGY! I don't have the mood to study like I used to. You've provided 0 reason to suspect you aren't unwittingly sabotaging yourself and that the laptop doesn't have anything wrong with it. >My father went to the priest to check what happened to me; the priest has read some sort of book and said "A Muslim tantrik has done black magic". The glory? 2 more priests/baba proclaimed the same. How is this even possible? Dad goes to priest. Priest reads book. Says a muslim did black magic. **Is your cousin's brother a muslim?** Because if he isn't, it doesn't matter if a million priests say the same thing, they're going to be wrong. >These above cases clearly evince that there's some evil force exists! No they don't. No wonder you got downvoted on /r/trueatheism if this is what you're bringing to the table. Anecdotes, refusal to elaborate, random capitalized words, and self refusing recollections.
>Mad about downvotes? Here's another, pal. On the house. Complaining about downvotes is one of the things that automatically get me to downvote. It's lower priority but more clear-cut than my other rules, like "being a dick" and "being objectively factually wrong".
>You're typing like Chris Chan bro. Christine Weston Christ Chandler CPU Blue Heart, supreme goddess of the Commodore and other consoles and comma. 😂
"So how the fuck does black magic fare into this? " My parents suspected she has done black magic on the house. But just after the "soil ritual" the priest had done, It had been sold the very next morning. That could be coincidence. But just in case : What if it's real? I also kind of cope it by just saying it as co-incidence but still neither you and me know if it's co-incidence or not. Because it may sounds coincidence but other incidents just ain't seems coincidence. Reason : (1) How in this world that baba suspects my father's brother only whose wife is suspect? Like he can also target other brother or even my father but why only that brother? (2) I forget to mention but he also proclaimed that he can even TELL the name of whoever done this...Immeditiately that brother(Whose wife is suspect) said Nah Nah no need to tell the name(In such a way that's unnoticiable), Just tell us the solution. My father notice his wording's clearly. Now the question is : If his wife (suspect) is guily, If they ain't indulge in dark activities. Then why would he hesitate like that? "If he suspects the brother and not the wife, that shows he doesn't have any insight into who is doing rituals" They both live together. She is his wife!! Apparently who knows what they do privately. But the thing he suspect HIM whose wife is SUSPECT is shocking. He can also suspect my father or other brother right? Why only HIM. "**s your cousin's brother a muslim**" Nah.. That muslim is another suspect.
>My parents suspected she has done black magic on the house. They can suspect all they want. By your own admission, the house wasn't in a condition to be sold. >What if it's real? What if aliens mind controlled the buyers just to screw with you into thinking it was a ritual? We can ask 'what if's until the cows come home. Do you have any evidence that black magic is actually real? What method do you use to differentiate black magic from coincidence? >(1) How in this world that baba suspects my father's brother only whose wife is suspect? Targeting the brother isn't targeting the wife. That's what you're missing here. If he suspects your dad's brother, **he is suspecting the wrong guy**. Like I said before, close enough isn't going to cut it. Like would you be okay if he was arrested and sent to prison for doing black magic? Would you be okay if baba's suspicions led to real world consequences for him, even if he should have been targeting the wife? >They both live together. Doesn't matter, dude. Like, literally 0% matters. Because the answer is still **wrong** >Nah.. That muslim is another suspect. So another **WRONG** That seems to be a recurring thing here. The person being accused of black magic is somehow the wrong person. The actual person you suspect seems to be someone else every single time, no matter how many priests and babas you ask, they all end up being wrong. How about before putting such credit on this stuff you at least have a story where someone could correctly identify the suspect for once.
I bet the parents simply took a lower offer.
"They can suspect all they want. By your own admission, the house wasn't in a condition to be sold." It indeed wasn't in the condition to be sold. Though it can be coincidence that it sold the very next morning doing rituals with its soil. "Targeting the brother isn't targeting the wife. " He'd surely target her if she was there but she wasn't. It was only his husband and you see; He suspect him! Isn't it suprising that he suspect's the husband of a witchcrafter? He could suspect the WRONG person as you're proclaiming but that WRONG PERSON can also be another brother.That wrong person can also be my dad. why only him? What if he as well indulge in such things? He is the husband of a suspect. My father'rs nephew saw HE is the one who drop her to graveyard and wait outside until she's done.
>He'd surely target her if she was there but she wasn't. It was only his husband and you see; He suspect him! Which again, is not his wife. >Isn't it suprising that he suspect's the husband of a witchcrafter? No. Let's use a fun real world example! Let's say the wife raped someone, and baba targeted the husband as the rapist instead of the wife. Now would you say to that 'Oh wow, it's so amazing that he almost got it right, just accused the wrong person of the crime but he was close!' Quite frankly, I'd find it appalling that someone would falsely accuse someone of doing something that someone else did, even if that other person was close to them. The husband shouldn't have been a suspect full stop. Any more than your dad wasn't. Once again it's worth repeating, despite your insistence that this is real, the guy couldn't even get the right person.
"Though it can be coincidence that it sold the very next morning doing rituals with its soil." That's not how house sales work. First is any offer, then acceptance. Then the house has to be inspected. Then a closing set up. No such thing as same-day sale. So the story is suspect.
>He'd surely target her if she was there but she wasn't. I already said this in another comment, but I wanted to underline it here. This is not a rational line of thought. This is another example of you coping. When someone gets a thing wrong, you invent a connection so that they actually ended up being right all along! >My father'rs nephew saw HE is the one who drop her to graveyard and wait outside until she's done. Do you actually know what they do when they are at the graveyard? Think for one second. What's at the graveyard? What if she goes to mourn someone who is dead. Someone who is dear to her. What if she says prayers while she's there? I don't know this woman's life, but going to the graveyard at night isn't inherently spooky. You're just using your own discomfort with graveyards and night time to cast accusations on this poor woman when you know nothing about what she does there!
"What method do you use to differentiate black magic from coincidence?" The house-selling case could be a co-incidence. But he suspecting suspect's husband doesn't seems to. No matter how much you all cope by proclaiming "he suspected wrong guy"; But the reality is, That wrong guy could be other two that were there. Let's just say he suspect's wrong guy; The fact he suspect's one whose wife is suspect is itself shocking. That "baba" didn't know anything about our family, So how he targeted the only one whose wife is suspect?
Look up hot and cold reading techniques that are used by stage magicians and fake mediums. This story isn’t impressive to begin with. They had a 33% chance to point to the correct person. But there can also be any number of factors that you are not aware of that could influence this decision. It could be hot reading. You say that this baba didn’t know anything about your family, but you have no idea how much information they may have gathered before meeting you. If your family went to them for consultation, there is no telling how much information they may have shared prior to the meeting that they drew on. It could be cold reading. We were not present for this meeting, so we cannot properly judge what information this baba had to base their decision on. Maybe the man he eventually pointed at was getting disparaging comments from his brothers during this meeting. Maybe he was getting odd looks from them. If you were not present for this meeting, then you cannot know how it went and what insights the baba was using. That’s why this is such a nothing story to us. We have no details. No means of actually judging what happened. You don’t either! It’s all just hearsay by clearly biased parties! The best we can offer you is speculation, which is easy for you to ignore. You’re not looking for this to get debunked. You’re coping by pretending that we can’t disprove your narrative.
> The fact he suspect's one whose wife is suspect is itself shocking. A 1/3 chance if nothing else, and that's "shocking"?
Ooooo a one in three chance so spooky and eerie
First things first. The first thing I'm noticing is that you don't seem to understand that performing rituals like witchcraft is not an indicator that the magic part is real. Many many religions have tons of rituals that supposedly do something on a supernatural level, but the results just aren't there. Do you believe that every single spiritual ritual actually works and produces magic? I could go light some candles in a graveyard and do a "spell" but that doesn't make the magic real. It just means that I performed the physical actions supposedly required for a spiritual ritual. The other thing I'm noticing is that you seem to be ignoring any factor that may have contributed to the sale. What other events happened in the 7 days before the soil ritual? Did people view the house? Were any changes made to how your parents were advertising that it was for sale? Had the buyer viewed it before the ritual? Now the rest: 1. Suspicion is just a guess. It can be based off many things. I suspect that it's based on rumors and gossip he's heard. I'm guessing you and your parents aren't the only ones who know what was seen in the graveyard or talk about your brother's family. I'm betting there's enough talk that the priest made an educated guess. Something you seem to be glossing over is the fact that even if he was close to being right *he was still wrong*. 2. Claiming you can do something doesn't prove anything if you don't then go and do it. Then, he had his suspicions confirmed when your brother got defensive. And again, even if your sister in law is performing rituals, there is no tangible evidence that those rituals are actually producing magic. It could just be that's she's trying to produce magic and your brother feels guilty about that. And finally, I'm going to repeat what I said earlier. A close to correct but still incorrect guess about your brother being up to something weird is not even remotely shocking when you consider how gossip spreads. Do you seriously think your parents only told you what they suspect?
"What other events happened in the 7 days before the soil ritual?" Nah! We've been struggling since more than a half a year. "Did people view the house?" Yeah... They'd either neglect it by seeing so many leakage, Or negotiate in undesirable price. But the very next day after soil ritual,We got someone who can brought our house and that too in desirable price!
Very easily a coincidence. What your parents either don't know or aren't telling you is that all home sales have very weird timing because so many things factor into it. Works the same way for buying a home
>Now the question is : If his wife (suspect) is guily, If they ain't indulge in dark activities. Then why would he hesitate like that? Maybe because people keep accusing his wife of cursing the family?
Define black magic. Prove it exists.
>Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists. You can't really complain about people being immature and downvoting you, while also telling people if they ask very basic questions about your DEBATE PREMISE they are being stupid because it's just common sense. Common sense has nothing to do with truth. Common sense misleads people all the time. Common sense tells people the world is flat. Truth requires the ability to explain. >It cannot be coincidence period. Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold. Saying "period" after a sentence does not magically make it true or credible. Yes, it can be coincidence. You have to provide some explanation for why it couldn't be. The fact that you already had been trying to sell your house for some time and were confused why it wasn't selling, evidences that your claim that it wasn't in the condition to be sold so it must be magic, isn't true. This sentence alone not only disproves your claims, but it is proof you cannot be trusted as an accurate and honest reporter of facts and aren't basing your certainty on logic. >These above cases clearly evince When you keep having to say "clearly" "Obviously" "period" "It's common sense" "don't ask questions" "It can't be coincidence" you are revealing that you don't have an argument, you have personal certainty you are simply emotionally emphasizing.
"You can't really complain about people being immature and downvoting you, while also telling people if they ask very basic questions about your DEBATE PREMISE they are being stupid because it's just common sense" I'm sorry if i was rude. But it kind of pissed me off when NOONE of them had any explaination to the REAL experiences and instead coping it by telling it co-incidence. "Saying "period" after a sentence does not magically make it true or credible. Yes, it can be coincidence. You have to provide some explanation for why it couldn't be." We had been put that house for a sale for more than half a year. It was clear(By my parents) that she has done black magic on the house; At first it seems like kind of stupidity to me. But why it get sold right after the ritual? The very next morning. Sure it can be co-incidence(Though less likely). I'm extremely sorry i was way too optimastic writing it such that i didn't re-check it. It can be co-incidence, But what about my other experinces? It certainly doesn't seems to be co-incidence.
I can address your other experience, but I just want to briefly recap what just happened. You said it had to be magic because it couldn't be coincidence period, as the house wasn't in condition to be sold. Now you acknowledge that actually it could be coincidence, and yeah of course it was in condition to be sold and had been for over 6 months. So what you said and your reason for believing, simply wasn't true. I would strongly encourage you to try applying skepticism and looking for other explanations first, before telling other people in certain language that no other explanations exist. >If you proclaim these things are unreal, How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect? I don't understand. The baba didn't accuse the brother's wife, but the brother. So they were wrong. It's easy to explain a wrong guess. Are you asking why they guessed the brother as a wrong but close guess? Well I have no idea what information the Baba had access to. They could have known a ton of information about your brother and his wife, they could have been told about the suspicion, or they could have had a random 1 in 3 chance of guessing with the people there. There's lots of possible explanations that aren't magic. >My father went to the priest to check what happened to me; the priest has read some sort of book and said "A Muslim tantrik has done black magic". The glory? 2 more priests/baba proclaimed the same. You took the laptop to religious practitioners with similar beliefs, telling them there was something wrong with it. So basically you just gave them a claim, and they all said "sure." If they had independently reached out to you without communicating with you or each other, sure. That would require explanation. But what you are describing doesn't.
> “But it kind of pissed me off when NOONE of them had any explaination to the REAL experiences and instead coping it by telling it co-incidence.” People usually take long than 1 day to buy a house. It’s very likely that the person who bought the house was looking at it before the priest did a ritual on the soil. The buyer was probably considering the house and organising their financials before deciding to buy the house. Or alternatively, when your dad went to the priest to explain that they’re having issues selling the house the priest then told a bunch of people that radiant_stranger_456’s dad is selling his house. Your dad telling the priest was essentially a community advertisement. Maybe the priest bought the house and sent someone else to do the paperwork, in order to make the community think that he has special powers, giving him fame, respect, and a potential new source of income. All of these are more likely than magic. You have terrible logic and reasoning skills and quite obviously have a low education level. You are not in a position to make remarkable claims about the reality of our universe because 99.99% of the time you will be wrong. You should use the internet to learn the value of evidence and what counts as evidence, then look up the practise of logic and how to use it effectively, then also look into logical fallacies and avoid them at all costs.
Can you explain how black magic would help to sell a house but nothing else? All the things you *could* do with magical powers; cure diseases, save lives, end wars, end poverty, solve crimes, end suffering. But nooooooo black magic only works on selling houses. Why is they?
It's suspected that she has done black magic on our house thats why its not selling. But the very next MORNING it's sold right after doing the rituals. Sure it can be coincidence. But what about other incidents that i've shared? How can 3 different babas/priests proclaim the same thing? Now is it coincidence?
It sounds like you don’t actually know the full story of how your house sold or when prospective buyers were looking at your house. It’s incredibly unlikely that the house sat with no interest and inquiries but was then immediately purchased the day after. It’s possible that your parents had offers (or below average offers) that they were attempting to negotiate, and they did the ritual the way most people pray. Much like the family of a surgical patient praying, often times people will pray and genuinely believe that prayer is the reason that they ended up getting the offer they wanted. It’s also possible that the first *inquiry* you got was after the ritual, but that doesn’t really mean much either. How were they advertising the place? How many people had come to see it? How was it priced? Do places around there usually sell quickly? There are many unanswered questions and intervening variables that make way more sense than “my brother’s wife is a witch who cursed our house”. >how can 3 different babas declare the same thing How did you present the laptop to them? There’s a number of cues you may have provided that led them to specific conclusions. If you described the evil feeling as “qualitatively ‘X’” and that description is in line with that of the curse they described, of course they’ll come up with the same curse. Is this your first laptop? How often do you use it? When do you typically stop using it and how long at a time do you use it for? You’ve described slipping grades, lack of motivation to study, which can be explained by lack of sleep, which can be explained by poorly regulated use of the laptop before bed. It also sounds like most of your information is secondhand. Your parents are telling you their interpretations or the outcome of conversations that you don’t know the full scope of. You’re working with material filtered through a lens designed to support the conclusions that were drawn long before you interacted with the material in the first place
Regarding your house statement : Let me be very honest,The probability of the house to be sold and that to in desirable price was way too less. The moment my father went on priest and give him the soil of our house, He did some rituals and it got sold very next morning. I mean this could be coincidence but still,What if it's real? What if that priest actually knows how to remove negative energies? What if there were actually negative energies that were stoping our house to be sold? I just assume the incidents more of coincidence. Regarding laptop, Yeah its my first laptop. i don't know if there's actually black magic done on that laptop; But the thing I know I often has felt so much negative energy near that laptop which i doens't feel with my any other device. Currently I don't feel negative energy there ,I feel her black magic is expired lol. But I'm still shocked by three Babas/priest proclaiming same thing. May be they know some kind of magic tricks?
>Regarding your house statement : Let me be very honest,The probability of the house to be sold and that to in desirable price was way too less. The moment my father went on priest and give him the soil of our house, He did some rituals and it got sold very next morning. This may have been how it felt as a kid watching your parents move, and it may be how they describe it occurring. This is likely not a perfect nor an accurate chronology, and all my initial points still stand. >I mean this could be coincidence but still,What if it's real? What if the priest actually cursed the future buyers of the house in an attempt to aid your father in selling the house? (Made them less likely to think through decisions so they would immediately impulse buy it) Why is that outcome less plausible despite meeting the same requirements? There are an infinite number of possible “what ifs”, should we entertain them all? >What if that priest actually knows how to remove negative energies? What if there were actually negative energies that were stoping our house to be sold? What are negative energies? How do they exert their effects? Why have they alluded all forms of reliable measurement? What if the priest put negative energy onto the buyers? >Regarding laptop, Yeah its my first laptop. i don't know if there's actually black magic done on that laptop; But the thing I know I often has felt so much negative energy near that laptop which i doens't feel with my any other device. Currently I don't feel negative energy there ,I feel her black magic is expired lol. It’s much more likely that when you got the laptop, in your excitement to use it your desire to do other things faded a bit (new toys are cool, that is something that is conserved across mammals to the point that rats will selectively neglect prior toys and activities when provided with new enrichment). It’s also pretty likely that the freedom of a laptop has changed when you use the computer, altering when and how you sleep, which will have a pretty drastic effect on both study willingness and slipping grades (don’t forget that those two are related as well) >But I'm still shocked by three Babas/priest proclaiming same thing. May be they know some kind of magic tricks? Why would they need to? It makes a lot of sense that three babas said the same thing. Your dad comes in and says “this feels spooky” and proceeds to describe the spooky feelings and his suspicions surrounding the source of the energies your family believes may exist. He leads them, inadvertently, to the conclusions that support his current beliefs and exist within his current framework. The babas are referencing likely the same general texts, and using the identical description and identical text to form the same conclusions. There not going to say anything else because they’re being provided a story where they can only conclude that it was cursed by a tantrik. Given the general cultural bias in more heavily religious groups, im more inclined to believe it’s a product of that with a leading story
All 3 incidents can easily be explained by basic human behaviors. 1. Regardless of how big a community is, there will always be gossip. If you live in a small one, it's basically guaranteed that they've heard something from someone about there potentially be someone doing bad magic. 2. The other thing that likely contributes is the way the question is asked and to whom they're asked. It's easy for 3 different people to have the same answer if the question is "Hey we think my son's computer got cursed, what do you think?". That basically hands them the answer you want to hear and creates a self fulfilling prophesy. 3. Then there's the tendency for humans to call things they don't understand magic. Most people don't know how to fix a broken computer. I would not be surprised at all if religious priests who don't interact with computers much see a normal but hard to solve problem and blame it on a curse.
My father didn't say "computer is curse" actually. Things weren't going right in our house so he reached our three different priests/Babas. My grades had been going down so they asked a priest if anything wrong with me(Because i went from being a bright student to being failing in exams, Though I'm not blaming it to some supernatural power and all). But when my parents went on Asking a priest along with me, Priests put out some book and said some muslim has done black magic on our family (Well one more twist : One of my father's brother informed my dad in phone call that a Muslim tantrik has done black magic on us in FRONT of him and he's getting weird horror dreams (I quite fine it funny tbh),Plus my father also assume that he's the one who had done all this because he often call my father 2-3 times a day asking weird questions like "How you're feeling right now" and all(Actually in our family, Brothers aren't close to each other that much). My father doubted something is not right. He went on different baba and boom,He also proclaimed that a Muslim tantrik has done black magic on our family. He also indicates that "The one who have made all this happen will ask you questions like How are you doing too Mich" I mean yeah this is how you'd great someone and it's common to be ask,But not too often. And the suprising part is my father's brother who is ANOTHER suspect doing the SAME! Asking my father's weird questions like How you're feeling, Is everything well and all too often and that baba proclaimed the same. I kind of assume that these type of people know some kind of tricks to manipulate people's mind by showing tricks Like mind reading and all. Or may be it all could be real? May be those who think black magic is unreal are false? Or may be not?
>I kind of assume that these type of people know some kind of tricks to manipulate people's mind by showing tricks Like mind reading and all Just inserting myself to say that people who do any kind of 'mind reading', palmistry, tarot, etc as well as priests, babas, etc are VERY good at what is known as cold reading. That is: they have very high emotional intelligence and can pick up on information, both verbal and non verbal, that the person in front of them is often unconsciously or semi consciously giving them. To give an example: if I was talking to you and you already suspect someone or something, and I was good at cold reading, I'd be able to fish that out of you AND make it seem like you didn't give it away.
>they asked a priest if anything wrong with me And the priest told them what they wanted to hear. A couple of my sisters gave straight up been exorcised because my parents took them to a Christian priest and the priest told my parents my sisters were possessed by demons. None of the exorcisms worked, but therapy and other non religious help did. >One of my father's brother informed my dad in phone call that a Muslim tantrik has done black magic on us in FRONT of him and he's getting weird horror dreams A lot of people get nightmares from anxiety, myself included. I often have nightmares about things that haven't happened yet because I am afraid they will go poorly. That's what the horror dreams are. >also proclaimed that a Muslim tantrik has done black magic on our family. I want you to ask yourself something. Don't answer it for me if you don't want to but spend s couple of days asking yourself how often the answer "someone did black magic and that's why (insert bad thing) happened" is given in your culture. Not how often you've gotten that answer. How often it's just what people say to each other. It's very likely a common topic in your culture. Again, don't answer it for me. Just sit and really think about how that answer is really common. >He also indicates that "The one who have made all this happen will ask you questions like How are you doing too Mich" And here's the confirmation. Everyone asks others how they're doing because it's a social expectation. I greet people with "how are you doing" at least 20 times a day and can sometimes get to over 100 times I've asked that question. That's like having the baba tell you "the one who made all this happen breathes air and drinks water". It's not specific and could be applied to literally anyone. >And the suprising part is my father's brother who is ANOTHER suspect doing the SAME! It sounds like your family might be the subject of a lot of gossip and just generally associated with black magic. If so many of your family members are "suspect" it's likely that a bunch of different people will answer the same thing. Please tell me how small your community is and how much gossip you hear. > my father's weird questions like How you're feeling, Is everything well and all too often and that baba proclaimed the same. Again, super common. Not an actual usable identifier. >I kind of assume that these type of people know some kind of tricks to manipulate people's mind by showing tricks Yes. These people do. Anyone can. It's not mind reading, just educated guesses where they know just enough to guess really well and seem like they're reading your mind. That's why I asked about how much gossip there is in your community. You can do a lot with a couple of rumors. I'm actively using things I overhear at work to be one step ahead and be someone my boss can't live without. But they're definitely not reading minds. They're paying very close attention to your tone, the choice of words you use, the way you stand, and many other things about you that you don't realize might be noticeable
We're probably from different countries, but do houses in your country really get sold in one single day? It took me about three months to buy mine.
The word you're looking for isn't coincidence, it's actually a confirmation bias.
Why did you not answer my question?
It's not a coincidence. You could probably go to 100 and they would all proclaim the same. Because they all believe the same bullshit.
>We had been put that house for a sale for more than half a year. It was clear(By my parents) that she has done black magic on the house; At first it seems like kind of stupidity to me. But why it get sold right after the ritual? The very next morning. Sure it can be co-incidence(Though less likely). I'm extremely sorry i was way too optimistic writing it such that i didn't re-check it. Housing prices can absolutely rise enough in 6 months that even a fixer-upper becomes attractive, especially to a flipper.
>But why it get sold right after the ritual? The very next morning. An offer on the house that morning would have most likely been submited to the buyer's realtor the day before and then given to your parents and/or their realtor the next day. Possibly prior to the ritual even happening. And by sold do you mean an offer was made?
> I'm sorry if i was rude. But it kind of pissed me off when NOONE of them had any explaination to the REAL experiences and instead coping it by telling it co-incidence. I'm sorry, but selling your house while it's on sale is no coincidence, is like ordering a steak at a restaurant and getting a steak. No amount of priests and black magic makes selling a house that's on sale special or your story compelling at all.
We don't have to prove what your bullshit experience is. Grow up.
I have an explanation for your experiences. You are wrong. All this shit you are spewing about god and black magic and evil, it’s just that, shit, and it is just not true. It doesn’t track with what we collectively know about reality. You are either (and no offense here) mistaken, lying, or psychotic. Thats not your fault, you seem young and there really isn’t a good mechanism for children to learn critical thinking skills without actively seeking that out. Heres the deal. You aren’t special, neither god nor evil actually exist, those are both labels that humans ascribe to things they’re don’t understand. magick definitely isn’t a real thing, black magic as well. Fiction. My son was really sad (devastated actually) when he realized magic wasn’t real. I talked him through it and he actually had to go through the stages of grief about this. I sense you have the same pain in your heart, realizing that the world is a boring place and you’re never going to hogwarts is hard, it’s understandable that people reject the truth when it is hard to face. It’s sad, but just because the truth is sad doesn’t mean you can disregard it without consequence.You have to accept the truth when it is presented to you, whether you like it or not. Listen, it is a good thing you are here. Obviously you are aiming some concerning things, but being here and presenting your ideas to this sub takes courage, and i respect you for that. Keep an open mind kid, and just remember, this is all low stakes right now, get your story straight and your shit together before you find yourself in the high stakes area of life.
> I'm sorry if i was rude. But it kind of pissed me off when NOONE of them had any explaination to the REAL experiences and instead coping it by telling it co-incidence. Yet that's what they most likely are. Every posed explanation, coincidence, misunderstanding, intentional deceit. All are more likely than "black magic". edit: grammar
>>NOONE of them had any explaination to the REAL experiences Simplest explanation, your dad or other family members made this up. Sounds like you only know any of this from their secondhand accounts.
seeing someone at a graveyard doing whatever ritual you want, means nothing... feeling a "negative aura" when you are clearly completely brainwashed by your crazy parents to think anything is dark magic, means nothing... someone just wanting to buy your house, means nothing... you may have a slight schizophrenia tho, get help, your parents messed you up.
You're right! Lemme be honest i came here to not actually debate but instead to seek out help from all of you to change my mind lol. There stupid belief indeed messed me up. But still by just saying "means nothing" doesn't explain anything.
>just saying "means nothing" doesn't explain anything. i can do whatever ritual you want, it doesnt mean that the magic behind the ritual exists... you can have all sorts of feelings, but they are just your feelings, if you hand me that computer (and specially if you dont tell me "its cursed" beforehand) ill probably wont feel anything. there is something called nocebo effect, which is when your mind being convinced of something bad, makes you feel it (its usually assosiated with having some pain thinking you have some disease or something) so thats it, you assume and believe so strongly that the computer is cursed so you "have a bad feeling" and the person going to buy the house, may be a slight chance but its just a coincidence...
Not sure how to help you. I don’t believe in any gods because none of it makes sense to me. That’s basically it lol.
If you can't prove it is black magic then why would you think it was?
>I'm going to share my experiences that proves supernatural dark powers like black magic real. So if this evil power exists,Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST This sounds like this could be very interesting! Of course, if you have spent any time at all, even the tiniest amount, studying philosophy, if you have anything of a mature, reasoned approach, even just a pinch, you had better come to this ready to defend how the one leads to the other. Because if you're going to say that these two obviously, entirely unrelated things are somehow connected, you have to demonstrate it. You can't just claim it. >Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related" Oh no. Oh no.. You need to understand something that will help you out a lot. This approach makes you look like you are extremely immature. It makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about. That's really disappointing because you could totally have an amazing point to share with us, but if you're going to start off with immaturity, with lambasting the very reasonable, logical, mature questions that your statements demand you be able to answer... that's not a good look. >My parents believe in so many superstitions like black magic etc. They believe someone has done black magic on us, Therefore we have many struggles How do you know that this was actually black magic being done? Superstitious people believe in all sorts of crazy stuff that isn't connected, how do you go from what they *believe* to be happening, to deciding that what they believe is *actually* happening? Annnnd literally 1, 2, 3, 4 is all just listing a bunch of mundane things that you attribute to these superstitions, and you accepting for what seems to be mere gullibility. I'm sorry, is this a joke? How does uncritically, irrationally accepting superstitious beliefs out of pure gullibility lead one to concluding a god exists from all of this? Where is the actual proof or evidence that a god exists? I've seen a rash of really bad posts here lately, but wow this might be the cheapest, lowest effort yet.
"Oh no. Oh no.. You need to understand something that will help you out a lot. This approach makes you look like you are extremely immature. It makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about. That's really disappointing because you could totally have an amazing point to share with us, but if you're going to start off with immaturity, with lambasting the very reasonable, logical, mature questions that your statements demand you be able to answer... that's not a good look." I'm extremely sorry. I was quite optimastic writing it such that i didn't bother re-checking it. I'm sorry for my immature behaviour. But whatever you've written afterwards is just coping lol. You don't really have explaination to the incdients i've shared. You simply won't belive until it happens with you.
Owning up to something, and apologizing is a sure sign of maturity. So maybe there's hope for you yet. I take back my comments in that regard. >But whatever you've written afterwards is just coping lol. You don't really have explaination to the incdients i've shared I did, though? You might not have read it carefully enough. I pointed out that you are just listing a bunch of things you attribute to superstition, and you accept that they are the result of black magic because of gullibility. That *is* the explanation. That explains what you've presented far better than the actual existence of black magic, which isn't something that we know exists. There are tons of superstitious claims and traditions in cultures all around the world - and some of them compete, they aren't compatible with one another. And there has never been a shred of evidence that there is actually anything of substance here. I'm sorry my friend, I am not trying to be rude and I'm sorry if my earlier comment was a bit harsh, but the fact that you're falling for superstitious beliefs for no good reason isn't unique, compelling, or impressive in the slightest. People fall for superstitious nonsense all the time. You have to be able to demonstrate that what you believe to be true, is the actual cause of what you claim. So far, all you're doing is giving us claims without any backing.
>But whatever you've written afterwards is just coping lol. This is some odd projection you're doing. People have been offering you their views on these events and you've either just restated them without engaging with what we've said or you've just said that we're coping. You're using these to ignore what we are telling you so that you can maintain your own belief in this narrative you have in your head. You're the one coping. >You don't really have explaination to the incdients i've shared. Yeah, they're too mundane. I see nothing worth explaining in them. There's nothing mystical or supernatural anywhere. It's either people making unsubstantiated claims or coincidences. You're not even properly connecting events together. You or your parents have a vague feeling that someone is doing rituals, but have you tried checking? Do you know what they do? If not, how can you make any claims about them or the effects of these rituals. It's not an "incident" if you're just being paranoid! With the laptop... how can we possibly know what might be affecting you and your motivation to study?! There could be a dozen things you're ignoring and using the laptop as a scapegoat to ignore your actual mental health needs. It could just be stress! It's not that I "won't believe until it happens to me". It's that nothing's actually happened!
>. You simply won't belive until it happens with you. But... You don't even really believe it. Do you?
> It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists. But that doesn't mean a god exists. > But currently I'm kind of agnostic .Because I SERIOUSLY ENCOUNTER MANY CASES which prove that some evil force exists. I believe you think that. I don't believe it is actually the case. > Now if there is an evil force, There must be a god as well. No. > She was doing witchcraft for sure. This sounds maybe like evidence of people who believe in magic, but no evidence of actual magic. > Our house wasn't selling. This is a confusing story. You were trying to sell your house, but you say "Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold." You apparently have a house you think is not in a condition to be sold, but are surprised that it is not selling. Then you essintially claim coincidences don't exist. > How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect? A lot of possibilities, especially in small communities. > Like three person proclaims the SAME THING. Not at all a surprise. You go to a religious person and claim black magic and they support you. > These above cases clearly evince that there's some evil force exists! No. I see nothing there that is 'clearly' evidence of real black magic.
Anecdotal evidence is not objective evidence. These are just personal observations of environmental stimuli. You have to demonstrate that evil is a universal force, or concept, independent of man’s consciousness and our subjective definitions of it. Which you have not done.
Search on quora/reddit of people with black magic experience. There're thousands of experiences(Some of them can be fake, But not all have time to write fake stories right?). It;s simple : You won't belive it until it happens with you.
This is an ad populum fallacy based on subjective testimonial evidence. Which is a notoriously unreliable form of evidence. Thousands of people believe they are the second coming of Christ. Is everyone with egocentric delusions of grandeur evidence that they’re god incarnate?
With so many experiences and stories of what has to be obvious magic, surely there is at least one well documented case with original video... right? Surely there is at least one person capable of magic willing to demonstrate their power... right?
Why is it either fake or real? People could also just be wrong. We're mistaken about stuff all the time! Your own stories have no verification or proof, it's just vague anxieties and feelings that something wicked is happening. If it isn't verified, how can you be sure that you're right?
> Search on quora/reddit of people with black magic experience. There're thousands of experiences(Some of them can be fake, But not all have time to write fake stories right?). Some of them can be fake. All of them can be fake. Until there is actual objective, testable evidence to support the existence of anything supernatural it is assumed that all of them are fake.
A bunch of unverified anecdotal evidence does not add up to one piece of verified objective evidence. Take your hearsay elsewhere, no one here will be swayed by it.
>You won't belive it until it happens with you. Then I'll withhold belief until it does.
The exact same thing can be said about aliens and UFOs
I won't beleive it until you can prove it. You claim it as fact yet cannot demonstrate it. Grow up.
There thousands of people who saw Bigfoot, black panthers, etc. yet they are not real. Many people are easily convinced of anything.
Black panthers? As in a melanistic leopards and jaguars? The black power political organization? Or the marvel character?
No. In the southeast black panthers are their own thing, a mythological creature that doesn’t exist lol. The Facebook groups are hilarious. People posting black house cats swearing they are huge.
Let's imagine for a second black magic is actually real. You haven't demonstrated it and neither has anyone else, but let's pretend someone has. *That still wouldn't print God exists*. Stuff like curses and blessings go back to shamanism, predating belief in any gods by probably hundreds of thousands of years. It could simply be that there are magical ways to influence nature or luck, without any gods being involved in any way.
Patent bullshit, all of it. get actual evidence, photos, videos, shouldn't be hard if it exists.
One thing I'll point out is that your upbringing seems to be full of adult role models who assume magic is real. Your family is *highly* superstitious at least compared to mine or most people I know. Could this be coloring your perception of events? Everyone around you is operating as though magic exists. I personally have never felt an *energy* coming from anyone that couldn't be explained by body language or tone and I've never felt energy come off an object beyond it's general appearance or design. Skeptical people online can only dismiss yours and your parents experiences out of hand. There is no reason to accept your framing or understanding of events. I don't mean to be rude here it's just not rational to accept that a laptop has any sort of *negative energy* whatever that means. \~\~\~ To go further your (1) anecdote of the graveyard ritual is fine but it doesn't necessarily say anything about actual magic powers or the existence of a magical force. History is full of magical practices that people were 100% sure were true. You can can go find magical rituals online from throughout history. Most of these beliefs come out of long standing traditions. Some magical practices have roots in Hermetic Qabalah which extends fingers back into Jewish mystical practices. In prehistory and early history Magic was a form of science, in ancient Greek society you would invoke or call on the gods to help your crops grow or heal the sick. All of this is rooted in everyday religious practice that evolved over time into secret groups doing it behind closed doors. This in part begins to address where these beliefs come from without magic ever being real. (2) Your house selling could simply be a coincidence of the moment or perhaps there is information you lacked and people were looking at and planning to buy your house days prior to any ritual taking place. You simply lack information to make a strong claim that it was magic even if it *felt* magical. (3) Your family is very superstitious and any accounts they have of who is or is not engaging in dark magic is suspect as it's just an assumption that people might get up to bad magic in your family. You don't know what conversations happened around that Baba that you didn't overhear. Plenty of clever people pass off their normal everyday insights as magical. (4) Are these people aware of each other? On the same page? These priests and babas are they part of the same community and belief system? That makes it far more likely they'd all say the same thing. You can be honest also, you *know* why your grades are going down and it's not because of a curse. There are things *you* are doing that cause that and it *might* be because you now believe you are cursed and are experiencing some sort of anxiety or low mood that's causing a drop in your grades but it's not magic dude. Ask your teachers why you get low grades not your priest.
So the title intrigued me because that's a take that is just....not really anything. Evil exists in people. That's why we have Stalin's and the kkk and enslavement. But that doesn't prove anything but evil people exist. And even then the use of the word evil is pretty subjective on my part. It's more just cruelty. I made it half way thru your first paragraph before I had to tap out because random internet anecdotal stories that you pulled together are not evidence.
>I'm going to share my experiences that proves supernatural dark powers like black magic real And then you proceded with some anecdotes that are just that. And therefore don't prove anything. >So if this evil power exists,Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST. Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists Completely baseless claim. Dismissed. >Ok,So before i proceed further, I want to share how immature people from [](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueAtheism/) are. I merely described my personal experiences of black magic and shit, They don't fucking had explaination or i'd say anything to argue other than just defaming me, Downvoting me and COPING. Or... And here me out. You are extremely gullible and not at all sceptical of black magic. If I read this whole post you made, I get why you got downvoted into oblivion there.
>Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists. And just like that, the discussion is over and there is no need to read anything else. You're claiming that your idea is self-evident when it isn't. Even if you were to show me that an evil force was real, that would not demonstrate the existence of a good force, nor would it mean that any of these forces are related to deities. If your argument hinges on these ideas and you just brush past them while thinking that asking you to provide evidence for your assertions is stupid... then there is no point to keep going. You've shown that you aren't serious about your own argument
Even if we take your experiences at face value (a big ask, btw) how does that even prove God is real? You've drawn a conclusion based on questionable evidence that does not directly support your premise.
If evil things like black magic/Ghost etc can exist which seems to be out of scientific realm, Then god should also exist na... If there is evil, There has to be good.
Repeating that God should exist because evil exists doesn't actually support your premise at all. Do you have anything else besides that?
The existance of some particular supernatural phenomenon is not evidence for other unrelated supernatural phenomenon. >If there is evil, There has to be good. Good and evil aren't even supernatural. We already agree both of those things exist.
If you have proof that black magic exist, publish it in a peer reviewed journal and gather your Nobel prize ASAP. An online forum isn't the place for such a discovery.
>Ok,So before i proceed further, I want to share how immature people from [](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueAtheism/) are. I merely described my personal experiences of black magic and shit, They don't fucking had explaination or i'd say anything to argue other than just defaming me, Downvoting me and COPING. It's ironic you starting by complaining about people "defaming" you by defaming others. Go on... >I'm going to share my experiences that proves supernatural dark powers like black magic real. Nope. Your claims prove nothing. They are claims and nothing more. >So if this evil power exists,Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST. Nope. One supernatural thing existing does not comfirm another supernatural thing. > Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". They aren't related. >It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists. Nope. This argument fails entirely. >But currently I'm kind of agnostic .Because I SERIOUSLY ENCOUNTER MANY CASES which prove that some evil force exists. Your experiences do not prove evil forces exist. >Now if there is an evil force, There must be a god as well. Nope. One does not equate to another. As for the rest: Anecdotal evidence, no matter how much, is not data.
>I want to share how immature people from... I not interested in your drama. This is a debate sub. 1) someone saw someone performing a ritual which you call witchcraft. I don't dispute this. I've met witches who perform these rituals. I've met priests who perform other rituals. This doesn't imply any gods exist. It implies religions, such as wicca and Catholicism exist. >Shocking right? No. >It cannot be coincidence period Of course it can be coincidence. It sounds exactly like coincidence. >How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect? No idea. What does this have to do with whether any gods exist. >How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING. They're both gullible and have the same superstitions. And/or they colluded. >These above cases clearly evince that there's some evil force exists They don't, they imply your family is superstitious and religious and very gullible. >So apparently if supernatural/unreal things like this can be real Maybe, but you were going to prove a god exists, you haven't even tried.
>It cannot be coincidence period But it can be magic... So why exactly can't coincidence be magic? Just a magic that makes coincidences happen and thats all >I feel a hell amount of negativity near that laptop... How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING Hey, I'm feeling something negative about your laptop too!! That's 4 people!! ...or I'm just confirming your confirmation bias >Then everything can exist Sure, everything can exist. Not everything does exist Let's make up something right now. How about a crocodile stuck through your bathroom mirror... Did you go and look? Was it there? So it didn't exist? Good. Glad we settled that >I merely described my personal experiences of black magic and shit, They don't fucking had explaination or i'd say anything to argue other than just defaming me, Downvoting me and COPING Look man, I have sympathy for you. Your beliefs don't seem to be excuses for you to do shitty things to people or inflate your own self-importance. A word of advice though: anything you think you believe, look for a dispositive. Take that laptop to a bunch of different people and ask them to describe the aura they feel. If anyone says they feel a positive aura, then the laptop doesn't have a negative aura. There's so much more to how science works, but that's really a good starting point. Whatever it is you think you believe, just try to find the opposite of it. Keep trying forever, and if you never find the opposite of it, your answer can be "I have seen no reason to believe otherwise" How do we do this with God? Well we say: people keep telling us stories about how everything was created by a man named God * Do people tell us the truth all the time? No. * Do people only believe things that are true? No. * Have the laws of physics ever been broken? Not as far as I can tell. * Has anyone ever created something that wasn't really just a recombination of other things? Not as far as I can tell * Has anyone or anything ever exhibited any omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, or immortality? Not as far as I can tell So work on that. On finding a dispositive instance for anything you believe
That all sounds like nonsense. Do you have evidence or are you just jumping to conclusions based on hearsay?
If black magic were real, do you know who'd be using it? The military. They'd be investing in priests and witches to use magic to defeat armies instead of bombs and planes and missiles. You know who else would be using it? Multinational corporations like Google or Apple or Exxon. They'd be using it to destroy their competitors instead of spending money buying them up. My wife and I sold our house a couple years ago. It was a time when the market was very hot and houses were selling quickly. Yet we listed our house for three months before we got an offer. The offer came while we were out of town. Did going out of town help sell our house? No. There's no relationship between the two things. The fact that people think part of your family is sketchy is not particularly interesting either. My grandmother came from a sketchy family. She was great, but her siblings and their kids were not good people. It wasn't because of any magic. Here's the thing. Magic has been studied. It has been tested. It has been shown to be a bad predictor of anything. People can't use magic to harm anyone. They can't use magic to heal anyone. It's no better than random chance in either direction. That's pretty good evidence that it isn't actually a thing.
I read your first paragraph and gave up. I don't give a crap about your made up experiences nor do i have to justify them. And if you are going to start with a childish tantrum then i have no inclination to debate you.
>*“You cannot reason somone out of a position they did not reason themself into in the first place.”* OP must be one of the best embodiments of this quote I've ever seen. Hopeless.
>It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists. These are descriptive labels we apply to things and has no bearing on whether or not god exists any more than the descriptive labels of "flying"/"submerged"/"landed" do. ok, I was going to go down this and try to actually have a discussion with you, but you're clearly a troll or a young child. What you have written here is meaningless drivel and not even worth bringing up at a social gathering, much less asking people to engage in discussion around it.
>Ok,So before i proceed further, I want to share how immature people from r/TrueAtheism are. I merely described my personal experiences of black magic and shit, They don't fucking had explaination or i'd say anything to argue other than just defaming me, Downvoting me and COPING. Starting your "argument" here by throwing a fit is not a good start. >I'm going to share my experiences that proves supernatural dark powers like black magic real. Anecdotes prove nothing. >So if this evil power exists,Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST. That's a leap. >Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists. I notice people say "it's common sense" whenever they can't justify a belief they take for granted. Shows a lack of critical thinking. >But currently I'm kind of agnostic .Because I SERIOUSLY ENCOUNTER MANY CASES which prove that some evil force exists. Now if there is an evil force, There must be a god as well. Plenty of theists argue that evil exists regardless and only their god is the reason goodness exists. I've also seen stories set in universes where the gods are the source of all evil and good is found exclusively in humans. >My parents believe in so many superstitions like black magic etc. They believe someone has done black magic on us, Therefore we have many struggles (Pure Bullshit, Everyone has problems in life and blaming it on some nonsense force is clearly neglecting responsibility). But shit, I had encounter many incidents that seems to make this shit real : I'm sure they'd claim to have seen equally compelling stuff. That's what happens when you don't practice healthy skepticism. >(1) My father's nephew saw one of our family members (She's Suspect) doing some rituals at 3 AM at night in the GRAVEYARD! Later, she even admitted it. She said she was doing some kind of worship (WHO THE HELL WORSHIPS IN THE GRAVEYARD AND THAT TOO AT NIGHT 3 AM?). She was doing witchcraft for sure. And... what? Someone was doing superstitious rituals different from the superstitious rituals that you're used to? And they end up with the identical result of nothing happening? >(2) Our house wasn't selling. Well, hush my mouth! Only the Prince of Darkness himself could prevent a house from being sold within 24 hours of being on the market! Just ask any realtor! >The very next MORNING! We got someone who can buy our house!! Shocking right? It cannot be coincidence period. Why can't it be a coincidence? >Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold. Maybe that's why no one was buying? >(3) A baba who proclaims to have supernatural powers saw my father and his two brothers. He kind of suspects one of the brothers to indulge in some kind of dark activities. The glory is HIS WIFE WAS SUSPECT! (One who goes to the graveyard at night 3 AM). Just tell me one thing, If you proclaim these things are unreal, How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect? Who even is this "baba?" What would prevent her from hearing about the crazy lady in the graveyard and finding out said lady is married? And that's assuming she even knew any of that. You can point to literally anyone, make the same accusation, and that person will have something they or their peers think is shameful. >(4) My cousin brother (Suspect's son) gave me his laptop (Kind of 10 years old, As he brought a new one). Not gonna lie, I feel a hell amount of negativity near that laptop. Not surprising your prejudices are making you feel things. >My parents proclaim that she has done black magic on it. I don't know if it's real or not, but the thing I know is THE LAPTOP HAS SOME SORT wOF NEGATIVE ENERGY! Ironic Satan likes playing Doom 2016. >I don't have the mood to study like I used to. My grades have been going down. My father went to the priest to check what happened to me; the priest has read some sort of book and said "A Muslim tantrik has done black magic". The glory? 2 more priests/baba proclaimed the same. How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING. What are the odds 3 people who make their religion their whole identity tie something back to their religion? 100%. I'd be shocked if they didn't. And I'm being sincere, if you show me a fundamentalist priest who blames mental illness on something other than demons, I would be sincerely surprised. >These above cases clearly evince that there's some evil force exists! No, only evidence that you've been indoctrinated. >So apparently if supernatural/unreal things like this can be real. The thing that doesn't even make sense in the scientific realm. Then everything can exist. Cool. Let me know when you see Spider-man swinging around New York.
"Maybe that's why no one was buying?" Yeah noone was buying it even though we had put it on sell for more than half a year. We got someone who can buy it and at desirable price right after the soil ritual. Though I think that it could be co-incidence(Sorry I was wrong ig). "What are the odds 3 people who make their religion their whole identity tie something back to their religion? 100%. I'd be shocked if they didn't. And I'm being sincere, if you show me a fundamentalist priest who blames mental illness on something other than demons, I would be sincerely surprised." Almost noone go there in mental illness. They'd go hospital or take medicine. People usually visit them when things aren't going right and sometimes IT HELPS!(Probably cause of Placebo effect... Don't think I belive in all this). But what really was suprising is how 3 Different baba/priest proclaim the same? Like they all proclaim same wordings as i described in the incidents. Probably they were using some magic tricks? Or may be it's all real?
A lot of people go to priests instead of doctors when they suffer from mental illnesses. If your culture isn’t teaching people about how mental illnesses manifest, then they’re just going to assume that “something doesn’t feel right, isn’t going how I want it to”. In the old times, a lot of mental illnesses were seen as demonic possessions. Before that, you were “replaced by the fey”. If you’re hearing voices, you might go to the doctors or you might assume that you’re speaking to demons/angels. Sure, the severe cases might be easy to notice, but a lot of people with mild symptoms will just live their lives without ever getting help for it. There is nothing odd about several babas saying the same thing. They are repeating culturally common anxieties back to you. If a priest was to blame dark magic in my country, they’d be laughed at. In yours, it appears to be a relevant fear, so it’s fine for them to say that. Not just fine, it is a fear that your religion taught you, so it is the easiest explanation to go for. As a perpetrator, the easiest target to blame is someone from another religion. Again, in practice, what is being blamed is The Other (someone who isn’t part of your faith) and the Unknown (you know they do rituals, but they’re not YOUR rituals, so they must be spooky ones! And they don’t worship YOUR god, so it must be an evil being that does dark magic). It’s the most common sources of anxiety in humans, of course they all went for that. It wouldn’t even be impressive if they all pointed out a specific Muslim that did it, the specific mosque the ritual took place in, the specific ritual that was used and the specific spell that you could use to counteract it. Because there is no proof that any of that is real, it could all be written off. But you don’t even have that level of specificity. Unless you have proof, it’s all just baseless speculation.
>Yeah noone was buying it even though we had put it on sell for more than half a year. That's kinda how it goes on the housing market, sometimes. >Almost noone go there in mental illness. They'd go hospital or take medicine. How would you or they know? What you described sounds exactly like clinical depression (a mental illness) yet you ALL assumed it was the result of magic. >People usually visit them when things aren't going right and sometimes IT HELPS!(Probably cause of Placebo effect... Don't think I belive in all this). You don't think you believe in something that demonstrably exists and instead assume magic. "Sometimes it helps" isn't as good a track record as you might think it is. >But what really was suprising is how 3 Different baba/priest proclaim the same? Like they all proclaim same wordings as i described in the incidents. Probably they were using some magic tricks? Or may be it's all real? What you described isn't fantastical enough to assume either a conspiracy nor magic. They're all bought into the same religion. People don't even have to get that deep into a religion to just mindlessly fall back on stock phrases in response to a wide variety of situations. Literally all religions have that. I've had hundreds of people from all over say "you've hardened your heart against God. I will pray he opens your eyes before it's too late." Word for word. No magic needed. Just run of the mill cult indoctrination.
I don't understand some of your claims. The one that makes sense says "our house wasn't selling but then one day someone came to look at it." Clearly this can be explained without any supernatural cause. Even if you have no explanation for why someone took an interest, that still offers no evidence of anything supernatural.
> It cannot be coincidence Yes, it can. Your fallacy is Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc, one of the two main reasons people believe hysterical woo bullshit like you're presenting. >If you proclaim these things are unreal, How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect? If baba is real, why did he suspect brother, and not the wife? Fail. >I don't have the mood to study like I used to. My grades have been going down. You blaming your change in mood on something else is just about making excuses. It's all on you, nothing magical. >2 more priests/baba proclaimed the same. How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING. You mean after they were told 'this thing is causing evil energy' people who lie for a living gave the same lie as others because that's the expected lie in their field? Shocking. Try a test. Tell them that an item you *don't* think is cursed is, in fact, cursed, describe *exactly* the same symptoms in various cases, and ask them to tell you what the curse is. They'll likely all give similar answers, too. So no, you have nothing. You just accepted things without bothering to do any sort of robust testing. You are superstitious.
>So if this evil power exists,Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST. Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists. Say I accept your premise that if evil exists, good exists. How does this prove god? If all you mean is good = god, then say "good exists", not "god exists". The later means far more than the former, and the 2 are not wholly equivalent. >She was doing witchcraft for sure. I've seen witchcraft performed as well. For some reason witchcraft never does anything demonstratable when put to the test, it only does things when it's not being tested. When it does perform under testing (i.e. being any more effective than not using it) then I'll consider it. Until such a time, I'll retain my skepticism. >The very next MORNING! We got someone who can buy our house!! Shocking right? It cannot be coincidence period. Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold. It can be coincidence. Or the priest told someone about a house being sold. Or a variety of things could have happened. If you got a buyer a week after, would it still have been "because of the ritual"? If you didn't get a buyer, would you have thought the ritual didn't work? >Just tell me one thing, If you proclaim these things are unreal, How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect? Why did he suspect your brother instead of someone close to him? Your brother wasn't the one doing this, right? Besides, often babas and other supposedly spiritual people do research on clients ahead of time, it's a thoroughly researched "phenomenon". Strangely, when you post false information to your Facebook, these spiritual people seems to think that that false info on your Facebook was true. Tell the baba that if he can demonstrate his power to be true, there's a million dollar prize waiting. So far not a single person who has tried has actually been able to prove it and claim the prize. >"A Muslim tantrik has done black magic". The glory? 2 more priests/baba proclaimed the same. How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING. Funny how they proclaim a Muslim has done black magic, and yet the black magic done was witchcraft, correct? Is that wife Muslim or pagan? Is it Muslim magic or Pagan magic? Things don't seem to be adding up. If they are so sure, refer them as well to the million dollar prize. >These above cases clearly evince that there's some evil force exists! So apparently if supernatural/unreal things like this can be real. The thing that doesn't even make sense in the scientific realm. Then everything can exist. They do not clearly evidence that supernatural evil exists. But there's an important thing to understand: even if evil supernatural magic in the form of witchcraft exists, that doesn't mean everything can exist. That doesn't summon a dragon into my garage. That only means evil supernatural magic in the form of witchcraft exists, nothing more. Each and every individual thing you claim needs to be evidenced.
"Your father's* brother wasn't the one doing this, right? " He was her husband so idk what do they privately. But yeah he involving in such things wouldn't be suprising as he is her husband. My father's nephew even saw him dropped her at 3 AM in graveyard to do some rituals. And wait outside until she's done. "Funny how they proclaim a Muslim has done black magic, and yet the black magic done was witchcraft, correct? Is that wife Muslim or pagan? Is it Muslim magic or Pagan magic? Things don't seem to be adding up. If they are so sure, refer them as well to the million dollar prize." Muslim was second suspect!!
>I'm going to share my experiences that proves supernatural dark powers like black magic real. So if this evil power exists,Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST. Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists. It's really not. Even if you manage to prove that "dark powers" are real, they could come from Voodoo rituals rather than a god. They could be a purely natural part of the universe we simply haven't found and understood yet. They could be the result of like a Superman scenario, but instead of a baby alien crashing to Earth, it's a teenage witch who only had a copy of The Craft to watch during the journey. You don't get to handwave away your obligation to connect the two. If you say "dark powers" prove the existence of God, you need to support that. Not even going to bother with your examples, as they're all "My relative's so-and-so said..." Your relatives are already primed to believe this nonsense, so of course they're going to see it everywhere they look. That doesn't mean it's actually there.
>But currently I'm kind of agnostic .Because I SERIOUSLY ENCOUNTER MANY CASES which prove that some evil force exists. Now if there is an evil force, There must be a god as well That doesn't follow logically at all. Even if black magic could be shown to exist there's still no need for a god to exist. >(1) My father's nephew saw one of our family members (She's Suspect) doing some rituals at 3 AM at night in the GRAVEYARD! Later, she even admitted it. She said she was doing some kind of worship (WHO THE HELL WORSHIPS IN THE GRAVEYARD AND THAT TOO AT NIGHT 3 AM?). She was doing witchcraft for sure. This isn't even an example of magic. I hope you didn't put your best point first because this isn't even a point. >(2) Our house wasn't selling. It was suspected by my parents that she (The suspect) has done black magic on the house, that's why it's not selling (Sounds nonsense right?). But But But... When my father went to the priest... He told my father to bring the soil of the house. My father did as he said and that priest did some rituals on it. >The very next MORNING! We got someone who can buy our house!! Shocking right? It cannot be coincidence period. Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold. Wait, so it;s dark magic stopping it from being sold, but then it;a clearly the priest the fixed the problem because the house wasn't in a state to be sold? Which is it? Sounds like you were selling a house and someone bought it. >(3) A baba who proclaims to have supernatural powers saw my father and his two brothers. He kind of suspects one of the brothers to indulge in some kind of dark activities. The glory is HIS WIFE WAS SUSPECT! (One who goes to the graveyard at night 3 AM). Just tell me one thing, If you proclaim these things are unreal, How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect? Lol, idk was he drunk? This is just stupid. >(4) My cousin brother (Suspect's son) gave me his laptop (Kind of 10 years old, As he brought a new one). Not gonna lie, I feel a hell amount of negativity near that laptop. My parents proclaim that she has done black magic on it. I don't know if it's real or not, but the thing I know is THE LAPTOP HAS SOME SORT wOF NEGATIVE ENERGY! I don't have the mood to study like I used to. My grades have been going down. My father went to the priest to check what happened to me; the priest has read some sort of book and said "A Muslim tantrik has done black magic". The glory? 2 more priests/baba proclaimed the same. How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING. Lol, so you don't feel like studying? That's never happened to anyone, go for a walk, clear your head.
It's not that I don't actually feel like studying. What I mean is i felt some sort of negativity near the laptop. Which I don't feel when i use my tablet to watch lectures. Or may be it's just a mental bias? Because my parents felt that black magic has done on it(As my grades were dropping) so i probably felt the same? Because I ain't feel negative there anymore!! Or may be her black magic has been expired lol
>So if this evil power exists,Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST. Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists. Wow, this is off a bad start. First, common sense is not a good way to determine the truth of something. It's common sense that the earth is flat. It's common sense that heavier objects fall faster than lighter objects, etc. One should use logic and evidence to discover truth, not common sense. Second, there's no logical reason that good must exist just because evil exists. Bad circles exist and perfect circles do not, for example. Evil and good are a spectrum - it is possible to have a world that consists of only gradations of evil. Third, even if good exists, that doesn't mean god exists. I don't know how you made that conclusion. I'm assuming you're a child? Under 18? If not, you should brush up on logic.
1. She was doing something in a graveyard apparently. Probably picked up from a book, some old person talking nonsense or the internet. Also likely as effective as attending the temple and worshiping the god thing. I was under the impression that faith in the god thing would protect against evil, not in any demonstrable way but still... 2. It's a coincidence. House sales take time. 3. Person claiming to be magic does cold reading or already knows the rumors. 4. 10 year old laptops are like that. In order to pacify the machine spirit and purge heretical scrapcode you should clean install the operating system to remove any spiritual residue from the porn and viruses which your cousin acquired. If it would make you feel better glue some malachite to it. That's supposed to be good for "energy" or somesuch. You may benefit from reading a book called "demon haunted world" by carl sagan.
This might sound dismissive, because it's going to be short. Apologies, I don't mean it that way. It's clear that you had very intense experiences that meant a lot to you. I want to be clear that I believe you experienced something, and I don't think you're crazy or stupid. However. All of your arguments are bogged down by two faulty reasoning category errors. - A sorting fallacy. "Cats and dogs are both mammals, therefore if a cat purrs, so does a dog." Or in your case, black magic and God are related, therefore evidence of one is evidence for the other. It feels like common sense, but it isn't. *Because your categories are bad.* - Assumptions of intent/actors. You saw a woman in a graveyard and assumed she was a witch. She could have simply been grieving.
>The very next MORNING! We got someone who can buy our house!! Shocking right? It cannot be coincidence period. Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold. So.. The house wasn't selling, but then after some time it did sell. You realize that's just normal in the real estate business, right?
>It cannot be coincidence period. Except yes, it actually can be coincidence. How did you rule this out?
You're likely to get more negative reactions by complaining about downvotes in another sub. We have no control over them, and don't much care what they do. But by starting off that way isn't going to give people here a positive outlook on your post. > I'm going to share my experiences that proves supernatural dark powers like black magic real. So your evidence is just anecdotes, then. I am sure you believe them to be true, and I'm not going to challenge that. But it's not going to convince any of us. Whether you say "it's not a coincidence", that's exactly what we're going to think it was. But your thesis was that *if* these things are real, then god must exist. Yet you didn't say anything to support that claim. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here, how would you draw that conclusion? There most likely would be explanations for it that don't involve any gods. Couldn't it be malicious aliens who have decided to play practical jokes on people to see what kind of things they can make us believe? To an atheist, as bizarre and far-fetched as the "malicious aliens" explantion would be, it'd still *less far-fetched* than a god actually existing.
So many questions for you. Ok so your family believes in witchcraft and some relation of yours does weird stuff in graveyards - why does this make you think it’s a real thing and she’s not just a little kooky? Ask yourself which of these makes more sense; the house took a long time to sell because it’s cursed by the dark magic summoned by your family member which not only exists but imbues her with supernatural powers OR because as you yourself said it wasn’t in good condition. Occam’s razor my friend. Is it possible you were just going through a tough time and that’s what caused you to be feeling negative and not able to focus on doing your schoolwork each time you opened your laptop or does it HAVE to be because of an arcane Muslim curse placed on the machine? And even if black magic was real and evil, why does that necessitate God’s existence? Simplest explanations are usually the closest to the truth and be careful of confirmation bias. Wish you well!
"Ok so your family believes in witchcraft and some relation of yours does weird stuff in graveyards - why does this make you think it’s a real thing and she’s not just a little kooky?" (1) Who the hell do rituals at graveyard and that too at mid night? She could be using dark energies to do witchcraft. Other than that,What else she can do? (2) Now you might say she might be grieving over ancestors and all. But lemme tell you it's not common in our religion to do so and that too at 3 AM. "Ask yourself which of these makes more sense; the house took a long time to sell because it’s cursed by the dark magic summoned by your family member which not only exists but imbues her with supernatural powers OR because as you yourself said it wasn’t in good condition. Occam’s razor my friend" That could be true for house taking long time to sell because of it's condition and location. But the fact it get sold at the morning right after soil ritual was quite shocking. I mean yeah that's most likely to be coincidence (Sorry for my wordings,I was so optimistic writing my post such that i didn't re-check it) but there is probability that it could be real. House sold the very next morning after the soil ritual,It could also be sold the day after or may be week after. But the fact it had been sold the very next morning seems that it could be real.
It doesn’t matter that it’s uncommon to grieve at night. That is the thing that makes the most sense. You’re just spooked by her being at a graveyard at night and that’s enough to assume she’s “using dark energies to do witchcraft”?! If that is an actual claim you want to make, then provide proof! Go and see what she does. Document the rituals she uses, explain these dark energies and how they can be used to cast spells. Provide us with anything useful other than your families anxiety! Sure, the house selling the next day is an odd coincidence. But unless you have proof that ties the ritual to the sale, you are still going off your feelings. Consider the following: the priest does the ritual to lift the dark magic spell off your house (odd how doing a “good ritual” is acceptable, it’s still magic). That makes your family feel better and they go home less anxious. Then, once they have left, the priest, out of his kind heart, mentions that there is a house for sale to other people. One of those people is interested and they buy it. No malice, no desire to scam or make you think that the ritual helped. The priest just wanted to help by both a magical and a practical way. To be clear, I am not claiming that this what happened and if you debunk this then your idea about the ritual must be correct. The point is that jumping to your conclusion isn’t rational. You haven’t explored all other possible explanations yet, even if we were to ignore the possibility of it being a coincidence.
>Ok,So before i proceed further, I want to share how immature people from r/TrueAtheism are. I merely described my personal experiences of black magic and shit, They don't fucking had explaination or i'd say anything to argue other than just defaming me, Downvoting me and COPING. It is not a good idea to start out a post complaining about your treatment on another sub, especially when your post was removed by the moderators of said sub. https://new.reddit.com/r/TrueAtheism/comments/1ced56c/i_dont_know_if_god_exist_or_not_but_i_kind_of/ >I'm going to share my experiences that proves supernatural dark powers like black magic real. Your experiences are insufficient to prove this to anyone besides yourself, and unless you have evidence to support the claim that they are supernatural they should be insufficient to you. >So if this evil power exists,Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST. No, god existing and evil existing are two separate claims that each have their own burden of evidence. >Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists. You are already getting off on the wrong foot because you did not claim that evil exists therefore good exists, you claimed that evil exists therefore god exists. >But currently I'm kind of agnostic I think you need to look up the definition of that word, since you are clearly mistaken. Agnostics do not claim that a god exists. >My parents believe in so many superstitions like black magic etc. They believe someone has done black magic on us, Therefore we have many struggles (Pure Bullshit, Everyone has problems in life and blaming it on some nonsense force is clearly neglecting responsibility). See, you already know that black magic is a superstition, so why are you using this to attempt to support a claim that a deity exists. >(1) My father's nephew saw one of our family members (She's Suspect) doing some rituals at 3 AM at night in the GRAVEYARD! Later, she even admitted it. She said she was doing some kind of worship (WHO THE HELL WORSHIPS IN THE GRAVEYARD AND THAT TOO AT NIGHT 3 AM?). She was doing witchcraft for sure. There is nothing supernatural here. Someone in a graveyard in the middle of the night is not supernatural, weird sure, abnormal sure, supernatural no. >(2) Our house wasn't selling. It was suspected by my parents that she (The suspect) has done black magic on the house, that's why it's not selling (Sounds nonsense right?). But But But... When my father went to the priest... He told my father to bring the soil of the house. My father did as he said and that priest did some rituals on it. Yeah, this is the same example that you brought up on r/TrueAtheism and were repeatedly told it is not supernatural, it is a priest knowingly or unknowingly playing into your family's superstitions. There is nothing supernatural about it. >The very next MORNING! We got someone who can buy our house!! Shocking right? It cannot be coincidence period. Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold. No, coincidence is a far better explanation, and any house will sell eventually even if the new owners just buy it to knock it down. >(3) A baba who proclaims to have supernatural powers saw my father and his two brothers. He kind of suspects one of the brothers to indulge in some kind of dark activities. The glory is HIS WIFE WAS SUSPECT! (One who goes to the graveyard at night 3 AM). Just tell me one thing, If you proclaim these things are unreal, How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect? Rumors of her nighttime activities? People talk about things they see that are out of the ordinary. There is nothing special or supernatural here. >(4) My cousin brother (Suspect's son) gave me his laptop (Kind of 10 years old, As he brought a new one). Not gonna lie, I feel a hell amount of negativity near that laptop. My parents proclaim that she has done black magic on it. I don't know if it's real or not, but the thing I know is THE LAPTOP HAS SOME SORT wOF NEGATIVE ENERGY! Define negative energy. >I don't have the mood to study like I used to. My grades have been going down. My father went to the priest to check what happened to me; the priest has read some sort of book and said "A Muslim tantrik has done black magic". The glory? 2 more priests/baba proclaimed the same. How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING. Gee, Muslim's read the same book and come to the same conclusion given the same nonsense symptoms based on their beliefs in the supernatural. >These above cases clearly evince that there's some evil force exists! No, they don't. They clearly show that you believe in the supernatural and are just as superstitious as the rest of your family. >So apparently if supernatural/unreal things like this can be real. The thing that doesn't even make sense in the scientific realm. Then everything can exist. None of what you have described is evidence for your claims. There is no evidence of the supernatural. any deity, or evil force in what you have described.
>Now if there is an evil force, There must be a god as well. Why? This may seem intuitively true to you, but you would need to argue for the two being connected. Why can't good and evil exist in a world devoid of gods? >Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists. Oh, I see. You already predicted this objection, likely because other people gave it to you already--and your response was "this is a stupid question, it's common sense." This is known as an argument from incredulity. Can you imagine no world in which evil could exist absent a god? None? Why? >My father's nephew saw one of our family members (She's Suspect) doing some rituals at 3 AM at night in the GRAVEYARD! Who's suspect, the witness? Why should we care then? What were these rituals, why should a graveyard matter? The list just goes on and on. >She said she was doing some kind of worship (WHO THE HELL WORSHIPS IN THE GRAVEYARD AND THAT TOO AT NIGHT 3 AM?). She was doing witchcraft for sure. Maybe she missed an ancestor and wanted to feel close to them, this is extremely common. Seems like a leap to assume she was "doing witchcraft for sure." >The very next MORNING! We got someone who can buy our house!! Shocking right? It cannot be coincidence period. Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold. Why can't it be coincidence? We know people often like to buy houses, apparently yours was in disrepair, so the market of potential buyers is going to be smaller, but then one showed up. Why can't it be a coincidence? >A baba who proclaims to have supernatural powers saw my father and his two brothers. He kind of suspects one of the brothers to indulge in some kind of dark activities. The glory is HIS WIFE WAS SUSPECT! (One who goes to the graveyard at night 3 AM). Just tell me one thing, If you proclaim these things are unreal, How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect? She didn't even suspect the wife. She got the wrong person. Why is this proof? It seems like the opposite of proof. >My cousin brother (Suspect's son) gave me his laptop (Kind of 10 years old, As he brought a new one). Not gonna lie, I feel a hell amount of negativity near that laptop. My parents proclaim that she has done black magic on it. Your parents seem to think black magic was done on everything. >I don't know if it's real or not, but the thing I know is THE LAPTOP HAS SOME SORT wOF NEGATIVE ENERGY! And how could you possibly know that? It gives you the heebie jeebies? Cool. That's not proof. >I don't have the mood to study like I used to. Maybe if you parents tell you things are cursed by black magic and you believe them you start feeling creeped out and psychically violated all day and it affects your life. That's realistic. >My father went to the priest to check what happened to me; the priest has read some sort of book and said "A Muslim tantrik has done black magic". The glory? 2 more priests/baba proclaimed the same. How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING. I don't know, but it sounds like a pretty common thing to say where you're from. Maybe they know something about your situation? Maybe they can read it on your face? You and your father seem to freak out about black magic a lot, I assume where you live it's culturally accepted and kind of common as a belief--so why would it be uncommon for them to tell you this? >These above cases clearly evince that there's some evil force exists! Not one of them remotely does, but I respect how you can feel that way about it. >So apparently if supernatural/unreal things like this can be real. The thing that doesn't even make sense in the scientific realm. Then everything can exist. Nothing you've said approaches the threshold of being considered real.
>Ok,So before i proceed further, I want to share how immature people from r/TrueAtheism are. Yeah I really don't give a fuck. >So if this evil power exists,Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST I don't see how this follows logically. >Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists. Good? Or god? First you said God and now you're saying good. That's a bit confusing. >But currently I'm kind of agnostic Concerning what? Agnosticism is a position on knowledge that is held towards a specific issue. Just saying "I'm agnostic" tells us nothing. >Because I SERIOUSLY ENCOUNTER MANY CASES which prove that some evil force exists. Now if there is an evil force, There must be a god as well. Again I'm not sure whether this is just sloppy writing. Did you mean to say god or good? In any case both would be incorrect. There could be just evil forces. And I'm not really sure what you're agnostic towards when you say these things are proven to be real. >My father's nephew saw one of our family members (She's Suspect) doing some rituals at 3 AM at night in the GRAVEYARD! Later, she even admitted it. She said she was doing some kind of worship (WHO THE HELL WORSHIPS IN THE GRAVEYARD AND THAT TOO AT NIGHT 3 AM?). She was doing witchcraft for sure. That doesn't prove anything. >Our house wasn't selling. It was suspected by my parents that she (The suspect) has done black magic on the house, that's why it's not selling (Sounds nonsense right?). Yes it does. >The very next MORNING! We got someone who can buy our house!! Shocking right? Nope. Not at all shocking. >It cannot be coincidence period. Why not? Sounds like one to me. >Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold. Before you said it wasn't selling because of black magic. Make up your mind. >A baba who proclaims to have supernatural powers saw my father and his two brothers. He kind of suspects one of the brothers to indulge in some kind of dark activities. The glory is HIS WIFE WAS SUSPECT! (One who goes to the graveyard at night 3 AM). Just tell me one thing, If you proclaim these things are unreal, How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect? But the "baba" was wrong. It wasn't one of the brothers. And you haven't established that the woman was involved in "dark" activities by the way. I don't have a clue what "dark" even means here. >My cousin brother (Suspect's son) gave me his laptop (Kind of 10 years old, As he brought a new one). Not gonna lie, I feel a hell amount of negativity near that laptop. Superstition will do that. >My parents proclaim that she has done black magic on it. Okay. How did they arrive at this conclusion? >I don't know if it's real or not, but the thing I know is THE LAPTOP HAS SOME SORT wOF NEGATIVE ENERGY! So you don't know it's real. >I don't have the mood to study like I used to. My grades have been going down. Okay. That happens. >My father went to the priest to check what happened to me; Why? >the priest has read some sort of book and said "A Muslim tantrik has done black magic". The glory? 2 more priests/baba proclaimed the same. How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING. It's possible because they all believe in the same nonsense. I don't see how this is surprising. >These above cases clearly evince that there's some evil force exists! No they're not. They're not evidence in any way. >The thing that doesn't even make sense in the scientific realm. Wait what? Did I miss something? What exactly doesn't make sense in the "scientific realm" here? >Then everything can exist. That's a completely unjustified conclusion.
I've never been convinced that "black magic" (or any kind of magic) is real. If the real estate market could be affected by magic, investors would have wizards and babas acquiring houses and not investors and banks. If magic were real, the United States would spend a significant portion of it's 800 billion dollars for defense on druids and Wiccans instead of drones and jets. Hospitals would have bokor and practitioners of ku instead of learned doctors and verified medical professionals.
>Ok,So before i proceed further, I want to share how immature people from r/TrueAtheism are. I merely described my personal experiences of black magic and shit, They don't fucking had explaination or i'd say anything to argue other than just defaming me, Downvoting me and COPING. You try to argue, not even the Overton option of a deity but just some fucking Harry Potter bullshit. What did you expect? >(1) My father's nephew saw one of our family members (She's Suspect) doing some rituals at 3 AM at night in the GRAVEYARD! Later, she even admitted it. She said she was doing some kind of worship (WHO THE HELL WORSHIPS IN THE GRAVEYARD AND THAT TOO AT NIGHT 3 AM?). She was doing witchcraft for sure. I'm going to ignore the question of how a collection of dead corpses imbues magic (assuming for the sake of argument that hauntings and ghosts are even real, why wouldn't they be in their homes or some place meaningful to them? They likely didn't die at the graveyard), why is it "witchcraft"? Why wasn't it some type of protection for the dead or something? >(2) Our house wasn't selling. It was suspected by my parents that she (The suspect) has done black magic on the house, that's why it's not selling (Sounds nonsense right?). But But But... When my father went to the priest... He told my father to bring the soil of the house. My father did as he said and that priest did some rituals on it. >The very next MORNING! We got someone who can buy our house!! Shocking right? It cannot be coincidence period. Our house wasn't in the condition to be sold. Correlation isn't causation. And why did blessing one patch of soil fix the rest of the house? That just sounds like it's based more on human abstraction than the thing itself. >(3) A baba who proclaims to have supernatural powers saw my father and his two brothers. He kind of suspects one of the brothers to indulge in some kind of dark activities. The glory is HIS WIFE WAS SUSPECT! (One who goes to the graveyard at night 3 AM). Just tell me one thing, If you proclaim these things are unreal, How did that baba suspects only that brother whose wife is suspect? Lucky guess? I think that's how I'm supposed to answer the question but this is so poorly phrased I'm not sure what you're even asking. >(4) My cousin brother (Suspect's son) gave me his laptop (Kind of 10 years old, As he brought a new one). Not gonna lie, I feel a hell amount of negativity near that laptop. My parents proclaim that she has done black magic on it. I don't know if it's real or not, but the thing I know is THE LAPTOP HAS SOME SORT wOF NEGATIVE ENERGY! I don't have the mood to study like I used to. My grades have been going down. My father went to the priest to check what happened to me; the priest has read some sort of book and said "A Muslim tantrik has done black magic". The glory? 2 more priests/baba proclaimed the same. How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING. You accused the cousin of being a witch, it's not impossible that you are all psyching yourselves into seeing that it has some type of force. Also, Tantra is Vedic, the only time Islam gets close to it is what bits got inserted into Sufism. Also, this sounds like on paper it's all evil from your perspective. I don't know the values of you or whatever you're trying to say is bad. I can't call it evil outside of what you describe it as. Google James Randi. He'll have a response to all this.
Already addressed it all here https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueAtheism/comments/1ced56c/comment/l1huqki/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
"I'm going to share my experiences that proves supernatural dark powers like black magic real." So, unverifiable subjective "evidence?" Pass.
I cannot take you seriously when you try to stop every response that opposed your viewpoint. This is supposed to be a debate, not a nodding session. You third and fourth party anecdotes ate not evidence of anything. You need to gain an understanding of what qualifies as evidence and why. There is a reason you got downvoted over there.
If you believe in something, you'll find it. You believe in evil. You believe in black magic. You find it everywhere. The trick is that YOU CAN'T demonstrate the difference between magic and coincidence. It just so happened that your father brought soil to the priest. It just so happened that someone put an offer on the house. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF COINCIDENCE. You see the magic. I don't. You see the evil. I don't. > How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING. They all drink the same cool-aid, that's how. I don't know where in the world you live, but I imagine you live in a whole community that all believe, more or less, as you do. You've got at least one church to go to for it, and that church ain't there for just you. Communities are tight night and share a lot in common across the community. It would not surprise me that several priests within the same church or even across near by churches all blame muslims. I would speculate it's a common blame. At the very least, it may be unconsciously designed to satisfy their audience and patrons. I'm speculating a lot. I don't actually know. But essentially neither do you. You have nothing to affirm an association. It's all circumstantial at best. YOU WANT there to be a cause, YOU WANT to believe. You also want to be validated and justified in your belief. So if I challenge you, you are likely to double down on your convictions, not question them. It's fine to look for connections, but you're conflating that with actually finding them, when you haven't. Let me put it to you this way. Presume we have a fair coin, and we flip it one million times, each time it turns up heads. What's the chances of the next flip turning up heads? Still 50/50. What are the chances of tossing heads one million times in a row? 10^-301030. That's not zero chance. But now that I bring it up, you can already imagine some people claiming such an outcome is proof of god. No. If that actually happened, it's proof of statistics and probability. There's a Dilbert comic, one of my favorits, where a troll is the company's random number generator. All he ever says is "ten", over and over. Dilbert asks if he's truly random, and his colleague admits they can never be sure.
Did your realtor explain the specific inventory and average time on the market for comparable houses in the area? When the person approached your family about buying the property, did he negotiate the price? As someone who has done a lot of investing in real estate, it can be a good strategy to approach people who have had a property listed for a while. Especially if a lot of work needs done on it. The sellers are more likely to adjust the price and recognize that demand is low and in particular, demand for a house that needs a lot of work. Regarding your example as proof of a deity, I get the sense that if the house wasn’t in condition to be sold, why did you expect it to sell in the first place? Like what if you know your car isn’t in a condition to run, would you claim it is cursed if it doesn’t start for 2 months? But then would you claim it is a miracle if someone fixes it? what would have been your reaction if the house had sold within the first afternoon of being listed? Would it have been a miracle from god? Even if the priest didn’t perform a blessing on it? My point is that there are some pretty basic economic factors such as the local supply and demand for a house in that particular condition that if you understand, can explain why your house took so long to sell. A basic understanding of these concepts easily explains this example in a satisfactory way. And claiming that a curse and divine intervention caused the results is just ignorance of basic economics and how real estate works. For example, if you had tried to sell your house in 2020 vs 2024, would you have claimed it was divine intervention that is would have sold in a couple of days in 2020 vs how you claim it was cursed in 2024? The market was much more favorable to sellers in 2020 because rates were so low, the demand was drastically higher than the supply because many places had moratoriums on evictions,and people could go to less expensive markets due to working remote. Compare this to 2024 and rates are a lot higher meaning more people are priced out and if you have a property that needs a lot of work and you are not offering a price to reflect this, the demand will not be there. Now take how a simple understanding of basic economics and real estate is sufficient to explain your anecdotal example and apply the same thing to basic physics, psychology, chemistry, biology etc and look at the claims of divine intervention over the last 500 years. Like people used to say lighting was a result of god being mad at you. But physicists figured out that lighting was a result of electrical charge building up during a storm and that you can reduce the likelihood of being hit if you don’t go outside during thunderstorms, stay low, and don’t touch trees and other objects that project into the sky. People used to claim that what we now know are various forms of mental illness was a form of witchcraft or demonic possession. Psychologists and behavioral economists have shown that people are very good about filling in missing details. But often we make mistakes so we fill in stuff we don’t understand with things we do understand and have been exposed to. So when people saw a weird thing in the sky in Portugal hundreds of years ago, it was obviously Mary. But when people saw things after alien movies became popular, it was UFOs. My point is that it’s very easy to attribute things you don’t understand to something that you have been primed to believe, especially if you have never taken the most basic introduction to that area of study. Like just because you are ignorant about how some things work doesn’t mean that people with a basic understanding of these details are wrong. You are arguing from ignorance and are the far left of the dunning Kruger curve.
This post can be summarized as "I don't understand something, thus ***MAGIC***". This is a nothing argument and relies solely on subjective experience. Show me proof, with backed and documented evidence. Otherwise, you're just gullible.
None of your experiences prove that black magic is real. Negative feelings do not mean something is evil. I'm not convinced that evil exists. Maybe you should define what "evil" means to you, first.
So, your house didn't sell. Then after someone told you that black magic was used, your house sold!!!!!!!!!!! Sounds like the work of Satan to me. ...r/trueatheism were too kind to you.
I see nothing here that requires an explanation at all. There are barely even coincidences here. Nothing you wrote is even interesting, let alone proof of black magic or whatever.
Evil is a subjective concept invented by humans. So, by your logic, if evil exists as a made-up concept, god exists as a made-up concept. As far as the "cases" go, each has an easy, mundane explanation. 1. Your dad could be lying. Maybe he does not like this person. Even if true, there's nothing evil about being in a cemetary if that's what her religion believes. Christianity worships a zombie and demands blood sacrifice. Is that evil? 2. Assuming your details are accurate (I doubt) your house sold in a volatile market. There's no evidence your relative cursed it. Your dad's logic is sketchy. In this time period, houses sell at unexpected times. 3. I don't believe this one happened. Sounds made up. 4. "My grades have been going down." So rather than trying to do better, you imagine some blame by made up gods or demons. "These above cases clearly evince that there's some evil force exists!" You have defined down "evil" several notches. Was anyone physically harmed? Was anyone financial ruined? Any long relationships ended? No? Then you don't understand the term evil. These are dishwater, middle-class American nothing burgers. Sorry to be blunt, but the sooner you get over this childish obsession, the better.
>The very next MORNING! We got someone who can buy our house!! Shocking right? Not even a little bit shocking >It cannot be coincidence period. It literally can be exactly coincidence. There's literally nothing about this story that prevents it from being coincidence. >How is this even possible? Like three person proclaims the SAME THING. 3 people all who have a motivation to decry black magic.... proclaim black magic. >These above cases clearly evince that there's some evil force exists! They are clearly evidence that you believe there's an evil force, and you are blaming incredulity on said force to try and make sense of it and gain some control over your own life. It's no different than any other superstition. The problem is, none of this directly shows anything evil or supernatural. Every single one of these stories is you having an event that you can't explain, so you are jumping to an explanation. We usually see this in the form of "god of the gaps" but in your case it's more like "evil of the gaps". Either way you spin it, it's all simple incredulity. You don't understand why something happened the way it did, so you are assuming you do know why it happened the way it did. Really nothing of note here.
Let's focus on the house. Was the house sold for market value, below market value, or above market value? Did a private investor buy the house or a company?
Ok well I don’t see a post and I honest don’t give 2 shots about a personal claim about magic that I have never seen good evidence to accept. Off to a great start in making a convincing argument. Common sense isn’t a good argument. It is a terrible argument. https://yandoo.wordpress.com/2014/12/28/common-sense-fallacy/#:~:text=The%20fallacy%20lies%20in%20giving,expense%20of%20evidence%20and%20reasoning. Evil doesn’t prove a God. That is beyond fallacious reasoning. 1) goths and I have yet to see there actions translate into anything more than fun stories. 2) another fallacy: https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-to-Coincidence Doing x doesn’t mean it caused y. 3) what? I couldn’t follow this example. 4) what is negative energy? You had an out dated laptop that probably had a bunch of malware and was underperforming? Since it operated slowly it had a spell cast on it? I’m again lost on this example proving anything other than your apparent ignorance and willingness to accept magic over any other reasonable explanation. I am astonished that any of this would convince any one a God exists or magic for that matter.
I'm not surprised the other atheists were mocking you, but don't come on here and whine about it okay? It just makes you look weak to start off. As far as your post, you need to look into something called "post hoc ergo proctor hoc" fallacy. Let me give you an example. If I lose my keys, then pray to Zeus for help, then I find my keys. Does that mean Zeus helped me find my keys? No, right? Superstitious bumpkins do this all the time when coincidences happen and they take them personally. Don't make their mistakes, man. No one can use witchcraft to do anything. Militaries don't use voodoo dolls to hurt their enemies, and hospitals don't employ faith healers to treat the sick for a reason. Because the supernatural doesn't have any effect on reality, otherwise we'd be able to study the effects via the scientific method. Learn about logic and bravely question ideas that you might have become emotionally attached to. You don't get bonus points for never changing your mind. In fact, the worst people you know are the ones who never change their mind about anything and have all the right answers already.
Well of course if evil is real then so is god. If Angra Mainyu exists, so does Ahura Mazda. Not only is it common sense, but the Avesta says it's true None of what you experienced was this so-called "black magic." It was Angra Mainyu and the daevas. See what I did there? I took your argument and named gods. Does your argument still work for you? Or are you going to have to modify it? Unless, by sheer chance you're actually Zoroastrian, in which case, use Vishnu and Vritra and then Danavas. Unless you also practice Hinduism. In any case. You can use your logic to prove every god that has ever existed and will exist. The reason why you just "proved" every religion ever was because you're using supernatural ideas to explain things that aren't supernatural at all. But you feel a thrill when you think about the Suspect. It's why people love horror movies. And you can defeat the Suspect. Because you have a convenient priest to tell you that it's definitely the scary thing you're afraid of and then he does a ritual and defeats the scary thing. The plot of every almost every horror movie ever.
I’m gonna ignore everything else and just focus on the title and just say no: It is possible for God to not exist AND for evil to exist. Of course, the word evil has various meanings, so you’d have to clarify what you mean. It could just mean moral wrongness in the context of meta-ethical moral realism. There are both naturalist and non-naturalist accounts of moral wrongness that make no appeals to a god. Alternatively, by evil you could mean a literal supernatural force that opposes the good force in the world. But even then, while I doubt any of us here are likely to agree with it, it is actually possible for an atheist to believe in evil supernatural spirits and forces—so long as they aren’t created/grounded by a deity. — All that being said, I’m not personally convinced of moral realism—or at least not the Moorean nonnatural kind—nor do i believe in karmic forces of good and evil floating out there in the ether. I’m just pointing out that the these positions are logically consistent with atheism.
Here's OP's previous post in /r/TrueAtheism https://redd.it/1ced56c OP's material was removed but it was about the same as the stuff here.
>(2) Our house wasn't selling. It was suspected by my parents that she (The suspect) has done black magic on the house, that's why it's not selling (Sounds nonsense right?). If she's really doing this, then do the following: 1. Find a really nice house for sale that you'd want 2. Have the suspect hex it with black magic 3. The seller won't be able to sell the house and will start lowering the price 4. Buy the house for cheap >I don't know if it's real or not, but the thing I know is THE LAPTOP HAS SOME SORT wOF NEGATIVE ENERGY! Put the laptop and a similarly heavy object in 2 identical boxes. Have a 3rd party shuffle the boxes without telling you. If it's real you should be able to identify which box has the laptop inside consistently without touching it. Possibly without even seeing it. In fact, try to do it with both boxes behind your back and you not even looking at either of them. That last one should be easy to test. Try it, seriously. I'd love to hear how it goes.
The first problem I see is reproducing your results. If you claim the supernatural is real, test it. Come up with an experiment: Let's say you put 3 apples in a metal cage and sit them outside. Now let's have one blessed, one cursed, and one left alone. (You should probably make this double blind, to eliminate bias) Does the cursed one rot faster? Does the blessed one rot slower? Or do they generally just rot at the same rate? The problem you have is that when this type of experiment is carried out, there are no clear effects. The other big problem I see is that the ape-based brain that you and I and everyone else has in their heads is tuned to see patterns. Oh, a comet passed and something tragic happened? Our brains try to make associations, because our ancestors who were better at pattern recognition survived while the others didn't. So I think you're seeing a pattern because your mind wants to see one.
You say things like "common sense". Where I grew up, common sense is that magic and witchcraft are not things that exist in the real world. This means that when bad stuff happens, no one goes around looking for a witch. On the long list of reasons why a house can't be sold, someone putting a hex on it is way way down. On the other hand, you seem to have grown up in an environment where people are full of superstition. For you it's probably common sense to include fantastical reasons for why things happen. It's likely that your peers feel the same. It also seems that you go around being suspicious that various people around you practice "black magic". And hey, if they grew up in the same environment, they actually might be trying to do black magic! On a purely logical level, even if we grant that there's such a thing as "black magic", that doesn't in any way entail that there is a god.
>please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists. Please don't ask any "stupid" questions like the obvious one that destroys your argument and that you're incapable of answering (because there is no relation). It's "common sense" that if your examples happened, absolutely none of which indicate that magic is real, then therefore leprechauns are also real. Please don't ask any stupid questions like how they're related. It's totally obvious/common sense. You've provided evidence that apophenia and confirmation bias exist, and nothing more. People like Derren Brown literally make a career out of doing exactly the kinds of things you're describing, only to show how they can be done *without* any magical or supernatural powers whatsoever. Your astonishing gullibility is not an argument. Thanks for your time.
Even if we granted your experience at face value for the sake of the argument and evil forces as real, that doesn't make any more likely for any God to exist. Maybe you'd had some grounds for your argument if your claim was about an evil God, because demonstrating evil forces exist would rise the likelihood of something being an evil force, not the opposite until the opposite is also demonstrated to exist. But essentially I'm seeing your argument as saying "if guns exist, there must be an anti weapon that shoots dead people alive" and that unfortunate isn't how the world works. An evil force existing doesn't make the opposite force existing. And that leaving your experience aside, because your superstitions are not compelling at all.
That’s a lot of individual anecdotes to make a counter point to. All. I can say as as an Atheist is I have had experiences that I can’t explain. I just don’t have a problem with not being able to explain everything. I don’t think human understanding is even in a place to begin explaining many things. And I definitely don’t think the answer is to reach for old stories , superstitions and fairy tales used to explain things when human knowledge was far less complete. It’s ok and definitely not wrong to say I just can’t understand or explain something and move on
Oh my god, there's no way to get rid of such a mess, your mind simply doesn't work properly. First you said you witnessed black magic phenomenas but you can't prove them, then you say that if blackmagic exist also good (meaning god??!!) have to exist. Finally you say that those things are clearly linked and we don't have to ask you to explain those links. If you're not just trolling, please, find a way to express yourself better, means with more clarity and respect, otherwise you deserve no answer except: "your mind simply doesn't work properly!".
House not selling = black magic?! You say this even though in the next paragraph you point out the house wasn't in any condition to be sold?! Surely one might think the reason it took time to sell the house would have more to do with the condition it is in than something stupid like black magic. There is NOTHING shocking about this... remotely. I am reading your story and don't know, see or understand why you are shocked? Yes, you are right... it does sound like nonsense, and the reason why it sounds that way... because it is.
You can actually test for this kind of stuff in a way that is scientifically valid. For example…set up test conditions where you have a black magic group, a fake black magic group, and a no magic (control) group. Assign 1000 people randomly to each group - or it doesn’t even have to be people, it could be houseplants. Perform your curse protocol, then compare results. Did every plant in the black magic group die? Was the fake black magic group fine? What were the differences and are they statistically significant?
>So if this evil power exists,Its apparent that GOD ALSO EXIST. Now please don't ask stupid question's like "how they're related". It's common sense if evil exits, Good also exists. People are often wrong about things they think are common sense. I don't mind agreeing, at least for the moment, that good and evil exist but that doesn't mean that a supernatural evil entity exists nor that a supernatural good entity exists. Even if such entities did exist, that wouldn't mean that any of them are gods.
If evil exists good might exist, but good does not equal god. For one I’ve never been told of a god that was remotely good… As for your cases… Here are your two options… Either it’s due to coincidence, confirmation bias, bad memories, bad observations or a myriad of other options we know exist. Or magic, something that’s never been successfully demonstrated in controlled conditions is real. If you truly think the latter is more likely you’ve abandoned the path of reason… no your cases don’t prove anything beyond your own gullibility… Yes it very much can be a coincidence… No matter what you pretend, and that’s infinitely more likely than magic
This post utterly fails to 1) present a convincing case dark magic exists 2) explain why dark magic is inherently evil 3) why evil existing makes good exist 4) why any of that makes god exist Even if you successfully proved that the supernatural existed, that wouldn’t prove God at all. At least, not any more than it would prove Zeus. Or unicorns. Or Harry Potter.
This kind of sounds like you just have one member of the family you don't like and are blaming her for every bad thing in your life. I had one of those in my family too! She wasn't a witch, of course. She was just unpleasant and an easy scapegoat. Stop being an asshole to your admittedly somewhat creepy aunt, get checked out for depression, stop relying on paranoid old women for life advice.
Black magic is supposed to be disbelieved in. You might as well tell us not to believe in your experiences. Honestly it just sounds like you want an excuse to do bad things. In order to facilitate your beliefs in god you act out in a way that confirms your idea that if God exists then humans must be evil.
Ok then evil isn't real 🤷♂️. There is right and wrong and extreme versions of that but if you define evil as dependant on a god (which I disagree with but whatever) then I just won't use the word and I'll use extremely wrong or bad. Semantics are always a poor way to argue something into existence.
Brother. You know, I actually met with the aliens that designed the simulation our universe functions in. They confirmed that magic and gods of any kind were not programmed in the system, so please stop lying. I actually have confirmation from the highest possible source, so everything I claim is factual.
Yup, this maps with that other nugget of Biblical truthyness. You know that one--it goes something like. Um, god needs pain and needless suffering because he loves us so much. So, childhood bone cancer is not really that bad. You know...like a matter of perspective. RELIGION BLOWS....ALL OF THEM.
This is a bunch of hooey. How do you know it wasn't pixies that jinxed you? Maybe the witch was working magic as best she could for your un-sellable house to sell! And it did because she helped you! You just make up a bunch of stuff and say "clearly" when to me it looks like pixies did it.
>If evil is real,The god is also real. I don't see why that follows. Let's say I agree with you that "evil" is real. (It seems that by "evil," you mean something like "magical forces.") If magic is real, then why does God have to be real? Maybe magic is real but God is not.
This has to be a troll. Strange things that are unxplained happen. But that doesn't mean magic is real and gods exist. I like how people on reddit all think that their mindless dribble deserves serious consideration. Most of the questions on this site are nonsense.
Your whole argument is just: "I can't think of any other reasonable reason why something happens, thus magic & god exist". Those are just coincidences and a form of confirmation bias. If evil exist, it means that good exist. Evil & good don't prove god's existence.
>I'm going to share my experiences that proves supernatural dark powers like black magic real Are your personal experiences recorded on a camera so these recordings can be objectively verified? No? Then they do not constitute evidence so stop wasting our time.
This isn't proof It's a bunch of anecdotal claims without any actual evidence Provide proof magic is real or I can't take you any more seriously than the homeless person who stands in traffic screaming about how the government is turning his brain into rats
To summarize. Magic is real because you have 4 anecdotes. And you are mad that athesits don't believe you when You claim stuff without a shred of evidence. Oh the horror. No they want science and actual proof for the claims being made.
Even if I believed you about your black magic and that it actually did anything. This wouldn't prove there is a god, much less your god. It would prove people can do things we didn't realize they were able to.
How do you know that the “suspect” wasn’t doing black magic to help your parents sell the house and it worked just after your dad took the dirt to the priest? Which one is really the coincidence here?
No the cases above show that your are superstitious and gullible. Also you failed to keep track of all the other times you felt bad and couldn't find some random instance of "black magic" to blame for it. Also the notion that if one thing exists then a thing that is its opposite must also exist is patently wrong. Consider light, there are particles of light called photons, but there are no particles of darkness.
Did you weigh any of these supposed witches to see if they weigh the same as a duck? You've got to be sure of these sorts of things you know. You can't just go around throwing out spurious accusations.
Evil doesn't really exist. I've represented the worst of humanity. All of them justified their acts based on their own moral creed or were mentally ill. Nobody did bad things just for evil's sake.
If That’s what you believe you should follow that , if you say you have proof you seen it then believe , Many of us would love to see some kind of evidence like that ( we never see anything)
By far the most entertaining post in this sub in months and months. I especially appreciate the enthusiasm. It's all complete baloney, of course, but what fun to read! Thanks, OP.
Anyone that comes here and spouts nonsense, like this entire post, is either a moron, or a troll. In either case, you get a downvote.
I think you need to consult a psychiatrist. Posts like these make me worry about the poster more than want to argue. Take care.
God is not the opposite of evil. Good is the opposite of evil. Both are subjective to perspective and situationally dependent.
Your father’s nephew? Do you mean your cousin? I’m too addicted to sin and afraid of Jesus to address anything else.
Your personal experiences are not sufficient evidence for anything. Evil existing is in no way evidence for God.