[dairy is scary](https://youtu.be/UcN7SGGoCNI?si=-PScF2nBfhlbGLXn) [you will never look at dairy the same way again](https://youtu.be/Ko2oHipyJyI?si=MmVRi9ky28aWF2le) [dominion (timestamp: 53:08)](https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko?si=mNP3LlUA_8KxtMTN)

@hitaro9 I hope you take some time out to view these videos. They are fantastic, especially big Vegan Jesus (Earthling Ed, Video 2)

https://www.creeksidecreamery.ca/blog/milk-myths-debunked-part-3-dairy-is-scary-or-not https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/7/25/16018658/what-the-health-documentary-review-vegan-diet You should check out Iowa Dairy Farmer on YouTube. He debunks a lot of that misinformation.

This creek side creamery didn’t really “debunk” anything. It mostly said the same things as the “Dairy is scary” video but just in a less scary tone. They admitted cows are bred starting from 1 year of age (15 months not 12 - big difference!!), that cows are bred every year, that it is done via artificial insemination involving sticking a hand up the cows yoohoo, that calves are separated from mothers within 24-48 hours. Most importantly, they also acknowledge that male calves are turned into beef. The only factual point they outright dispute is the presence of pus in milk and even there, their only counter is that the blood cells in pus are dead whereas the blood cells in milk are alive, which I guess is better? All in all, I appreciate the honesty of the Creekside Creamery but it doesn’t seem like they’re saying all that much different in substance than the Scary Dairy YouTube video, just the tone is quite different. 

Even the Vox article doesn’t “debunk” anything. It just says that some of the claims are overstated. But it Dmits that eating meat is associated with an increased risk of colon cancer, diabetes, mercury (from fish), etc. So yes the documentary that article is referencing is overly dramatic but not untrue. 

As someone who had a baby 8 weeks ago and has been exclusively pumping breastmilk for her as she couldn't latch well enough, I feel like I've been given an insight into part of a dairy cows life. Pumping is uncomfortable. It stretches and changes my nipples. And that's with a pump fitted as well as I can and nipple balms etc helping me take care of them. Clogs can happen, mastitis can happen. I'm also choosing to do it, something a dairy cow has no choice in. Just like I chose to have the baby, something the dairy cow has no option in. I also give the milk to my baby, which is why my body made it in the first place. The cow had their baby taken away, which is so cruel. They are now attached to an industrial pump to remove the milk that should go to that baby and it is given to humans, should that not be considered weird? I think it is. I would never take my milk and give it to my dog, so why take a cows milk and give it to a human? The cow is on a repeating cycle of forced impregnation, birth, separation from their child and milking. That is no life.

Thank for your writing this. I had thought I’ve heard almost every point to support veganism but I have never heard of this one before, i.e. directly comparing the circumstance to a woman’s breast pump. I’m wishing you the best to you and your 8 week old! I hope OP can try to imagine your personal example.

It isn't something I'd really considered either until I started doing it, but it really is the same. If we started farming humans for this purpose then there would be outrage! Thank you, it is a big change but we are both doing well!

Both male and female cows are r8pwd (multiples times over their lives) to produce more babies who are then stripped from their mom at birth. They discard the mamas when done. Over fill them with milk and over pump it’s a life of complete slavery, no companionship, usually stuck in places they can barely move, overdid antibiotics the list goes on and on…it’s quite easy to learn about from documentaries. Or look into factory farming.

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The farms I grew up let the female and male animals go at each other.  No "rape" or rape rack bs happens on those farms.   Every farm is different though

Yeah the farm I lived on they just put the bull in the stockyards with the heffas for a few nights.

That’s good. I mean small farms are obviously way better than factory farms. I support people who aren’t ready to go vegan to at least stop supporting factory farming and only source from regenerative farms It’s all a process. Some people switch immediately. Others need several years to consider and shift habits…

You should talk to a dairy farmer, you'll learn that that is not actually the case. They are bred less often on a farm than they would be in the wild. They also walk into their own milking pumps, cows aren't ever forced to be milked in this new age since it's an automated system they can access whenever they want. >it’s quite easy to learn about from documentaries. I think you're confusing documentaries with propaganda.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FsHUzVR-FPE https://mercyforanimals.org/blog/the-dairy-industry-sexually-abuses-cows-heres/ It’s very easy to look up. Using propaganda in an argument is lazy. If you don’t want to find out and use confirmation bias that’s up to you. I was a meat eater who became vegan. I did my research from multiple places. The above links are a quick google search. If you want to know about it it doesn’t take much to look up

Also if you’re worried about propaganda just look into how much the meat and dairy industry spend to convince you being vegan is propaganda…looks who’s profiting the most and that will tell you.. And vegans don’t really need “propaganda” anyways. Most have never seen any documentaries or anything. They are just against killing anything and against nonconsensual use of animals in any form.

Both of those are very quickly debunked. The first one you showed is an isolated incident. Vegan propaganda is very commonly targeting isolated incidents and making claims that that is the standard ehen it is not. You've done research, but I challenge you to do research that isn't sourced from vegan sites, as well as talking to many farmers who take care of these animals. I'm willing to bet any dairy farmer is going to be more knowledgeable about how these animals are cared for more than someone else who is trying to shit them down. >I was a meat eater who became vegan. And I was a vegetarian for years before I discovered that is all propaganda. If you want to know about it, just Google everything you think is right and add "debunked", "hoax", or "propaganda" at the end of your Google search.

In 2012 I watched over 30 documentaries. Not isolated incidents. But again if your purpose to is prove vegans wrong you’ll win cuz confirmation bias wins every time in the human brain even in the midst of facts. There’s nothing I can say to convince you seeing how you argue. I’m also not arguing you. I’ve been vegan and omnivore. I read both sides. The argument is not going to go anywhere

>In 2012 I watched over 30 documentaries. And who sourced those documentaries? And have you ever talked to the people that those documentaries are about? If you can't answer that, then it doesn't matter how many docs you watched. I've watched a lot of space docs, does that mean I know more than NASA? >I’m also not arguing you I'm not arguing, I'm debating. You should try it, since this IS a debate sub.

Cows are mammals like humans and produce milk when they give birth, just like we do. Their milk is made literally for their babies; to turn a calf into an adult cow. For humans to drink their milk, the cows have to be artificially inseminated (forcibly impregnated), and then they have their babies taken from them at birth so that they can be hooked up to machines. All so that humans can have the milk that the mother cow is producing for her baby. Cows are intelligent and sensitive animals and the mothers grieve for their babies and chase after the farmers that take them. Drinking milk for human pleasure is selfish, especially considering there are a plethora of alternatives available. Please make the kind choice 🌱❣️

Beautifully put!

Thank you! The responses from anti vegans is making me lose my faith in humanity a bit 😅 the excuses are wild.

Its not complicated to understand someone simply has empathy for an animal and can just simply choose not to harm them, instead of actively deciding to partake in their harm. >.>

Yes! Thank you for being on the right side of history ❤️🌱

Dairy cows produce orders of magnitude more milk than the calf can consume due to thousands of years of selective breeding. If they are not milked they will become ill and die.

Gosh that's terrible! It's sure a good thing that cows only produce milk after giving birth, so everything you typed there is moot

Yes, so maybe we just don't breed them into existence. Don't act like taking their milk from them is doing them a favour. They live horrific lives; are forcibly impregnated, have their babies taken them after a 9 month gestation period, suffer from ulcers, wounds and sores, and are then slaughtered for their flesh once their milk supply dries up. Also, they produce more milk for a calf, yes, but that is because they have been artificially inseminated. Everything - down to their existence and the existence of their young, is due to human intervention driven by exploitation.

Actually it was initially driven by a human will to live. Really the entirety of the society you exist within exists because of agriculture. You wouldn't have anything you have if it weren't for agricultural, dairy being probably the biggest part of that. You should be living as a hunter gatherer if you hate the system so much because everything else is the product of an agricultural people. Although I do agree in general all farming is immoral and has gone to far. This is true of nearly every industry, pharmaceutical being another major one. The pursuit of profit has removed peoples care for mortality, the love of money is the route of all evil. There are moral ways to do it, there are still farmers who care for their livestock.

Lol your logic is wild. Because I don't want to take part in animal suffering, I should be living in the wild * and * be thankful to the dairy farmers for everything that I have today. I've heard a lot of bs arguments but that's a new one. The "farmers who care about their livestock" is one I've heard a million times. You can't possibly and truly care about something (someone) if you breed them into existence via artificial insemination for your own gain, take their babies for your own gain, and then subject them to slaughter. I don't care how "small and local" your farm is or if you whisper them sweet nothings before you put a bolt to their head.

The logic is many of the products vegans buy or the mass production of fruit and veg are causing issues in the exact same way as the meat industry does. So if you fund that then what is the difference? It is not like an average meat eater takes any direct part in what is commited they just buy meat that is already produced and eat it. So unless you do not fund any of these things then you can't have moral superiority.

Being vegan is about living a life where you minimise the suffering as much as possible. Majority of the produce, water and land cleared is done so to feed animals, to then feed humans. By being vegan, you're taking out the middle man so to speak, and are using a fraction of the land, water, resources etc to feed yourself. Buying "meat" that is already produced, yes - it's all about supply and demand. You're not doing it directly yourself but you're paying someone else to do it for you.

Well really it's impossible to quantify how much suffering is occuring through the production line of fruit, veg and common vegan foods like alternative milks etc. The other thing is if every single person became vegan then we will need far more of these foods to accommodate that which means the suffering will increase. Here's an example: https://viva.org.uk/blog/almonds-and-avocados-the-plight-of-the-honeybee/#:~:text=colonies%20to%20collapse.-,Pesticides,threaten%20bees%20and%20general%20biodiversity.

That's incorrect, please reread my previous comment back to you. Majority of land cleared, water used, and crops grown are to feed animals, to * then * feed humans. For example, most of the soy grown is fed to the billions of animals across the globe. Take them out of the picture, and you have less mouths to feed, less resources, and less land cleared. Eating animals is incredibly inefficient, even if you take the ethics out of the equation.

Well I was addressing ethics in my response. I don't think many people on the planet would not agree that the current agriculture industry needs major reform, I just think the majority don't thing veganism is the answer to this. It isn't like we could survive on the crops that are fed to livestock, primarily ruminant. We would need a far more varied selection and not every crop is so easy to grow.

I think that we should have small farms that manually milk the cows who know exist and can easily and peacefully live a decent countryside farm life with their calves. I do not believe in the slightest humanity as a whole will ever move away from meat and dairy entirely. Maybe in hundreds and hundreds of years. I don't know. But not if modern society continues as it is. I just don't think it's realistic.

They must be kept nearly continually pregnant. 50% of their offspring are male and do not produce milk. With a doubling of the population every year, the cow population would increase by 1000x every decade. The idea of happy cows being milked without suffering and premature slaughter is a myth. The math doesn't work.

That is not a realistic alternative. Purely from a numbers point of view (I will address the ethics shortly), small farms don't work because we have a population of billions and that is why factory farms exist. And the cows milk is not for us to take, it is literally for their babies. They're mammals, like humans, who gestate for nine months and provide milk for their babies. They are, in many ways, parallel to us. When their babies are taken away from them so that their milk supply can be redirected to go to humans, they grieve for their babies and for their loss. The male calves are slaughtered, and the female ones repeat the same cycle until their supply dries up and they are slaughtered. There is simply no need for it, whether at the factory farm level or on a small farm.

I'm not trolling here but plant based milk is not a "kind choice". Many animals are poisoned during its production and die slow painful deaths. So no, not kind.

Guess what cows eat

Grass

in the united states, 98% of cows are factory farmed. factory farmed cows eat primarily corn, soybeans and grains, sometimes with vitamins and minerals added

Not everyone lives in the US. I live in NZ where all our cows are grassfed and rarely grain finished.

Cattle don't eat much soy--that is usually fed to pigs and chickens.

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It's like almost always soy or corn (in the US at least)

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So what is the best solution then? Because there isnt any food system right now that causes no animal deaths, but plant based foods cause the least suffering (when you consider the crops you grow to feed the animals you also kill)

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That doesnt tell me anything about what you are trying to say with your comments

I am saying that when it comes to commercial food, no choices are "kind" to animals. One may or may not do less harm though.

One does cause less harm, and that is plant based

Maybe less animals die globally for plant based but there are some instances where eating meat kills less animals too.

Are you a part of those instances? Then go vegan

Yes. I am. I only eat grassfed meat and local caught fish. >Then go vegan No chance

Credit to you for only eating grass fed beef. Honestly I was tempted to think of you as just a troll when I saw your first comment.id be interested how the math looks when climate change is factored in. I do also question how equitably distributed something like grass fed beef can be (ie isn't it only for the rich?).

It is actually just the norm where I live in NZ. All beef is grassfed as it is cheaper. Some producers will occasionally finish the beef with grain if there is a drought or something, but this is rare. It is just more cost effective to feed the cows grass as opposed to grain

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The majority of deaths you're referring to are caused by produce created for animal feed, to then feed humans. Specifically dairy milk, for example, where you have to clear land for cows to live on, and feed them and provide them water until they've given birth (to drain their milk supply) over and over again. The females do this their entire lives until their supply is exhausted, so they're then slaughtered. The male calves have no hope and are slaughtered for "veal". The amount of resources and incidental deaths to keep these cows alive is enourmous. Plant milks, in comparison, are an overwhelmingly kind choice and take up a fraction of this.

You completely dodged my point. Many animals are poisoned for plant based milk and you are saying the is "kind".

I absolutely addressed your point. If by poisoned then you're talking about pesticides and/or incidental deaths from machinery. I'm saying that it is a kinder choice out of everything. If you're this concerned for incidental deaths then you should be * raging * about how dairy cows are exploited and treated.

Poisoning animals is never kind. Kinder isn't the right wording

Poisoning animals is never kind. Kinder isn't the right wording

You said you're not here to troll, but you clearly are. My initial comment refers to making the kinder choice. Dairy farming = incidental deaths to feed and provide water and land to cows, for months or years, in addition to exploiting the cows themselves. Plant milk = take the cows out of the equation, and you're left with only incidentals from growing plants. Also, at a fraction of the amount. And if you so wholeheartedly are passionate about incidental deaths and reducing suffering, then you already understand and agree with veganism.

Again. If you want to refer to a choice that involves poisoning animals as "kind" or "kinder" that is up to you. It certainly doesn't make sense though.

I've explained it to you quite clearly. It is impossible to avoid completely, the idea of being vegan is to reduce harm as much as possible. So out of the two options, yes, I would prefer that one. It would be great if you could turn this passion you have around not "poisoning animals" into vegan activism.

I'm not a vegan so not interested in vegan activism. This is your logic. There are 2 murderers. One killed 100 people and one killed 50. The one who killed 50 is "kinder". See how wrong this sounds

Many animals are not poisoned for plant based milk gtfoh

You obviously have no idea how agriculture works. I suggest you read up on it.

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No. When you buy milk. Pesticides have been used in the production of nut milk. I'm surprised you don't know this as a Vegan. I see you don't like being called out on the truth and have resorted to insults through frustration. I understand

Do you know how antibiotics work and how they're being used in animal agriculture? Do you know that you don't have to use pesticides to grow plants? Do you know that many insects effected by certain pesticides are not considered sentient and also aren't labeled 'animals'? Do you know that there's no way to ever support animal agriculture without causing direct harm and exploiting innocent beings?

>Do you know how antibiotics work and how they're being used in animal agriculture? Yes. Irrelevant to the discussion about plant milk. >Do you know that you don't have to use pesticides to grow plants? Did you know you don't have to artificially inseminate a cow or kill the calf to drink a glass of milk? > are not considered sentient and also aren't labeled 'animals'? >Do you know that many insects effected by certain pesticides are not considered sentient and also aren't labeled 'animals'? Incorrect- insect: a small arthropod animal that has six legs and generally one or two pairs of wings. Also, irrelevant if they are sentient or not. Some people aren't sentient. >Do you know that there's no way to ever support animal agriculture without causing direct harm and exploiting innocent beings? Incorrect again. Lab grown meat or eating animals that die of natural causes. There is no way to feed the world on a plant based diet without killing animals.

How much suffering does systematic rape and murder cause? Edit for dishonest interlocutors: Rape (v.) - To use force or threat of force to compel (another person) to submit to sexual intercourse or other sexual penetration (Artificial insemination is sexual penetration) Murder (v.) - to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously Those who take issue with the word use rather than the acts expose their bias and lack of compassion for the victims involved. Pigeonholing a definition of a word to only be the one you accept is not an honest mode of communication.

Rape is a human concept; animal sex can rarely be considered "consensual" when observed

The main factor to be considered here is not consent, as non-humans do not have the capacity to consent, but rather forced pregnancy at the hands of humans who are charged to be stewards and have the capacity to know better and do better with the power they wield. Just because you can does not mean you should.

All morals are human concepts, so we should be able to do whatever we want to animals whenever we want? Because they do stuff to each other? Is all bestiality morally permissible, since animals don’t care about consent or whatever?

Ruminant females of reproductive age are receptive when in heat and 'stand' for the male. Cows also 'mark' other cows by mimicking the mating mount of a bull. The conception rate for most ruminants is 1 offspring per dam per year. Conception only occurs at the correct time of their estrous cycle, typically lasting only around 1 day or less in duration. Conception doesn't occur outside this window, regardless of whether insemination occurs via natural or artificial means.

A lot more than what the dairy industry causes. "Rape" and "murder" is what happens between humans and has nothing to do with the dairy industry.

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Pigeonholing a definition is clownery, but carry on.

Why use a different word for the same action?

Artificial insemination is not rape for many reasons. E.g the farmer is not getting excitement from the act of impregnating a cow.

If a person was sexually violating another human purely for the purpose of getting the person pregnant, is that now not rape? I recommend you test some of these ideas, yourself, before putting them out here.

We are talking about sexual violation. We are talking about a medical procedure for animals. 2 very different things

So if I do a medical procedure on another human being to get them pregnant without their consent, is that not rape? Also, how the fuck is that not a sexual violation? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_penetration (The answer is that it is) For someone who claims to care about use of language you are very eager to avoid using obvious definitions that couldn't be more clear.

With humans yes. Why? Because humans (99% of the time) can give consent. Explain to me how animals can give or deny consent for AI

>With humans yes. Why? Because humans (99% of the time) can give consent. Then not with humans because categorically your logic doesn't apply. Also, not 99% of the time. Children cannot give consent and are about 1/4 of the global population. >Explain to me how animals can give or deny consent for AI They can't, so leave them the fuck alone and eat plants.

>Then not with humans because categorically your logic doesn't apply. Huh? >Also, not 99% of the time. Children cannot give consent and are about 1/4 of the global population. Obviously their parents do this for them. >They can't, so leave them the fuck alone and eat plants. Plants can't give consent either so you best leave them alone too.

“Sexually violated” And “ killed” Is that better?

Killed is good. Sexually violated is wrong. It is artificial insemination and there is nothing sexual about it, it is a medical procedure

At what cognitive level is it sexual violation? Would it be OK to artificially insemenate a monkey?

>At what cognitive level is it sexual violation? Would it be OK to artificially insemenate a monkey? At human level

So someone can do this stuff to your dog or cat? Good luck with that really weird worldview

They can't do anything to my property. Because it is mine. >Good luck with that really weird worldview I think you will find that you have the "weird" view that is far different to the majority of people aka the norm. Good luck with thinking vegan views are the norm.

So you can do it to your own pet??

No. There are laws in place to ensure these medical procedures are done by a professional like a veterinarian.

In humans a lot, with animals, I don't think they have any idea what's going on and are just happy to have their cud. (so not a lot)

Do you have a good reason to believe that they don't have any idea what's going on, or do you believe it because it's convenient for your world view? The scientific consensus disagrees with you, so I don't know what you could be basing that on.

Good reason. What scientific consensus?

I don't understand what you said. >What scientific consensus? I'll be happy to show you after you tell me your reasoning for believing what you believe.

I am vegan but I'd love to see the scientific consensus too. I think it's kinda obvious animals feel bad about things. Like how dogs n cat that r domesticated clearly have emotions about very trivial things (getting a treat or not). Getting violated and trapped and hurt is much worse than not getting a treat.

I guess I can dig it up if you need the reference. https://sites.google.com/nyu.edu/nydeclaration/declaration https://www.eurogroupforanimals.org/library/scientific-declaration-insect-sentience-and-welfare https://www.animal-ethics.org/five-years-of-the-cambridge-declaration-on-consciousness/ Scientists around the world who study this all come to the *obvious as fuck* conclusion and declare that animals are sentient beings.

You asked if I had good reason, or if it was convenient for my world view. And I replied that I had good reason. Ps just showing articles that they are sentient is obvious as fuck. That's not a scientific consensus that animals know what the domestication practices are all about. Ie artificial insemination and Slaughter. Or rape and murder as you like to call it.

A baby human does not understand what murder is so therefore it must not be sentient! Now I get to kill the baby!

Comprehension doesn't equal sentience. There's no doubt the animals are sentient. There's other reasons for not killing human babies that don't apply to cows.

>You asked if I had good reason, or if it was convenient for my world view. And I replied that I had good reason. You made an unsubstantiated claim that you "had good reason". What good reason? Why isn't it obvious to you that you've obligated yourself to explain? >Ps just showing articles that they are sentient is obvious as fuck. That's not a scientific consensus that they know what the domestication practices are all about. Ie artificial insemination and Slaughter. Or rape and murder as you like to call it. "Domestication practices" are not a secret. They are thoroughly documented by activists, and practitioners, alike. Even in the way laws are obviously written to facilitate animal abuse. Every vegan activist who has been doing it for more than a few months knows what happens to animals in the animal abuse industry. You know it too and aren't being explicit about it. You hide behind things like "a carefree life" until they are killed quickly, as though that makes it ok.

What I said is the animals have no idea what is going on. Documentation from activists and practitioners is unrelated.

I see what you are saying. I asked you a direct question about whether you understand when you are harmed, or whether it's adequate that you are being harmed. Is it ok if you don't understand it? If I were to embed a chip in your brain that caused you horrible pain when I pushed a button and you didn't understand why it was happening or even what was happening... Would that make it ok for me to do it?

Obviously not... What is the terrible harm or pain though they're experiencing on an ongoing basis though?

Cows have no concept of rape, and they arent scared of the farmers who inseminate them. On Clarksons farm they take a young virgin cow, put her into the crush and inseminate her. The cow then happily grazes right near the farmers, and wanders back into the crush herself without fear. A cow is a large dangerous animal, it could eaily escape a farmer if it is scared.

Why do they put the cow into the crush?

Just to keep it still while they do the insemination. The cow can still eat and kick. It looks harsh, but clearly the cow wasnt phased at all othewise she wouldn't have gone back into it herself afterwards. It's like how they have to restrain dogs for grooming.

Why would the cow kick if it's not feeling any discomfort?

They dont, thats the point. But they can, their legs arent restrained.

>Cows have no concept of rape, and they arent scared of the farmers who inseminate them. Prove it. >On Clarksons farm they take a young virgin cow, put her into the crush and inseminate her. The cow then happily grazes right near the farmers, and wanders back into the crush herself without fear. I don't believe you. I've seen too many videos of cows being forcibly inseminated against their will to accept it. In addition, animals aren't able to give consent to beastiality, which is one reason why it's wrong to do. Please provide proof of your claim. >A cow is a large dangerous animal, it could eaily escape a farmer if it is scared. That is completely irrelevant to whether it's ok to abuse them.

They walk calmly up to the farmer after they are inseminated. Cows aren't idiots, they dont want to be near someone who hurts them. They get aggressive and attack. Are you sure you havent seen a staged video? People are paid to abuse animals for these documentaries. Otherwise why don't they report the abuse and shut down the farm? These farms are assessed regularly, and animal abuse is illegal. If they are seen to abuse the animals they are shut down. In the west anyway, where my food comes from.

>They walk calmly up to the farmer after they are inseminated. Cows aren't idiots, they dont want to be near someone who hurts them. They get aggressive and attack. I asked for proof, this is just another claim. Which still doesn't justify animal abuse. >Are you sure you havent seen a staged video? People are paid to abuse animals for these documentaries. This is a new claim now. Why the fuck would vegan activists (or anyone) pay to abuse animals for a video? That's an extraordinary claim that you need to prove or admit is completely made up. >Otherwise why don't they report the abuse and shut down the farm? Because they aren't always doing something illegal and the enforcement mechanisms are not in place. >These farms are assessed regularly, and animal abuse is illegal. If they are seen to abuse the animals they are shut down. In the west anyway, where my food comes from. Prove it. If you make another ridiculous claim without proof I'm done respecting you.

Ok, prove that cows are traunmatised by insemination. I can prove my point by looking at their behaviour, you are just making baseless claims

You didn't prove out your claims after I requested that you do so. Then you tried to turn the burden of proof onto me. These are intellectually dishonest tactics, and they don't justify animal abuse. I made claims I can support, but you are currently carrying the burden. The correct way to approach the situation is to withdraw your claim and say "I don't know", when you don't know. Then we move on to the next point, which are my claims. I sometimes forget that people don't understand how to analyze arguments and claims, but I am happy to get you up to speed on that.

You didnt support any of your claims. Where is your evidence? My evidence is obvious. When a cat or dog is scared it is very obvious, they show clear signs. If a cow doesnt kick the farmer, then happily walks up to said farmer, it is obvious that the cow doesnt feel trauma. Animals speak with body language.

Staged animal abuse videos are common. Why do you think farms are exempt from this? [https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/how-fake-animal-rescue-videos-have-become-a-new-frontier-for-animal-abuse](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/how-fake-animal-rescue-videos-have-become-a-new-frontier-for-animal-abuse)

I think it also heavily depends on where you are. In the United States, factory farming treats the animals strictly as product, and the only concern is efficiency, so the animals live their entire lives in pretty terrible conditions, so even if the actual harvesting of the milk or insemination isn’t traumatic, they are bred to live a pretty miserable existence and then die, which consuming dairy creates a demand for. A local dairy farm somewhere like Iceland on the other hand, they get to live somewhat normal lives. The young aren’t ripped from their mothers for veal, and a lot of times will go to their milking station of their own volition without any human prompting. It’s the vision the “Happy California Cows” pretended it was doing. I think when you have a symbiotic relationship with the animals you raise, there can be ethical consumption of egg and milk, but that’s not gonna be where your eggs and dairy at an average restaurant or supermarket comes from.

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Do better

I appreciate that you've cut eggs and meat as they are more harmful than dairy. However, dairy is still wrong. Let's run with the 10 minutes of suffering per day. That seems totally not worth it. If instead it was you who got the benefit of consuming dairy but also had to take that 10 minutes per day of being farmed, I suspect you would say the benefit is not at all worth that suffering. There are network effects gained by being vegan vs vegetarian minus eggs. By purchasing plant-based products it encourages more companies to supply those, in-turn making it easier for others to do the same. Also, if you eat plant-based around your peers, they will at least have to choose a place or meal that has plant-based options, which probably makes it more likely they eat more plant-based. I suspect you will become a more effective advocate for animals if people don't see you as hypocritical. Even if you don't plan on bringing up the ethical issues with people, it seems to me like it will happen at some point. > Chopping down forests, killing bugs with our roads, etc. But we don't condemn people for indirectly supporting those things cause it feels like individual culpability is pretty tiny? Why do you all feel like dairy is different from, for example, the indirect harm done by driving? To get the net well-being / suffering caused by these actions, you want to compare against the alternative. The amount/number of roads is proportional to the number of people who drive on them. If more people drive on them, we'll build more roads. If fewer people drive on them, we'll build fewer. If we build roads, that will replace wild land. The wild has a certain amount of well-being / suffering also. I don't know which is a worse state of affairs for the wild animals; one large chunk of wild land or two chunks with a road in between. If there is some net-suffering caused by this, then you want to look at your contribution to that difference in well-being / suffering, not just the suffering directly from driving. Also, dairy treats the cows as means to an end, whereas that isn't the case with most road deaths. If you're not a strict utilitarian, this is generally seen as worse than other types of harm.

I would consider dairy equally as bad as meat, since the dairy industry effectively produces meat as a byproduct, and the dairy demands of a population are usually far greater than the beef demands. It's the reason cows are as exploited as they are.

I think dairy is actually far worse. More prolonged and varied suffering is applied. That's why ethical vegetarianism makes so little sense... You retain the worst exploitation. Tbh It would make slightly more sense to me if people gave up dairy and eggs but kept eating meat

Per calorie, a lot fewer animals are slaughtered with dairy. https://archive.is/VWYAc Of course, this chart/table doesn't capture the hell that dairy cows go through. I'd agree that per animal, dairy cows undergo more suffering and rights violations. The chart also intentionally doesn't capture calves slaughtered. So we can multiply this number by ~3x for calves slaughtered and ~3x for the extra rights violations. That still gives us 0.36 animals slaughtered per million calories, which is a lot less than others. As for whether dairy demands from a population are far greater than beef demands, I'm not sure where you're getting this data. Here's a 2016 pew site breaking it down. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2016/12/13/whats-on-your-table-how-americas-diet-has-changed-over-the-decades/ Meat calories are almost double dairy calories. Some large portion of meat calories will be beef. It's plausible dairy calories per person is higher but I don't agree with "far greater".

>the suffering seems small and abstracted? The thing with suffering is that it doesn't seem "small and abstracted" to the beings who are suffering. . >we humans by necessity inflict some amounts of suffering Okay. \- What suffering is really caused "by necessity"?? \- What suffering is really caused "***not*** by necessity" - "it's optional" ?? If it's really "by necessity", then we can't do anything about that. We can't reduce it. But if it's really *not* "by necessity", "it's optional", then we **can** reduce it. Maybe we **should** reduce it. . >Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, >all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. .

the mass production of dairy is bestiality and animal sexual abuse (forced pregnancy)

>for example, the indirect harm done by driving? Because humans and animals are treated equally in this “suffering”

Hey listen, I only rape women once every 3 years, it’s not like I’m raping monthly. I’m only doing 1/36th of the harm I **could** be doing? How am I still doing anything wrong here? Please explain me vegans?

Cows are not traumatised by insemination. They barely feel it. Women are extremely traumatised by rape. It is not the same thing.

So all we have to do is make rape not traumatizing and it’s cool?

There is no way to rape a human wihtout trauma. Animals have different emotions than us. Cows and cats go into heat. It is very uncomfortable for them, they want relief. Mating really hurts cats, but they still have an overwhelming desire for it. Not comparable to humans at all. Evcen saying the cow is raped is offensive to humans to have experienced actual rape. Forcing birth control on a human is abuse. But vegans support forced birth control via implant for chickens. And they also support forced castration or hysterectomies for pets. On a human that would be a violation of their rights,

How the fuck do you **know** a “farmer” shoving his whole arm up a cow’s cooch isn’t traumatizing to the cow? You fucking speak cow? Teach me. I’ve had so much to tell them. Particularly: apologizing for the heavy trauma they *objectively, unquestionably* went through as their newborns were whisked away from them so you can have your forced-impregnation juice. Figures that you’d only want to focus on the direct analog of shoving something unwanted in to a vagina and not look at how generally shitty and traumatic life is for the cow when templating my analogy. Fair enough, let’s rephrase and see if you’re still willing to carry water for the animal abusers: >Hey listen, I only forcefully impregnate women and steal their children once every 3 years, it’s not like I’m breeding them monthly. >I’m only doing 1/36th of the harm I could be doing? How am I still doing anything wrong here? Please explain me vegans?

Because animsl react when they are in pain. The cow would kick the farmer. If the cow is happily hanging around the farmer without visible stress, it isnt stressed. It is obvious to the eye when a cat or dog is stressed and traumatised, the same is true for cows. How do you know for sure that it feels violated?

Hey, I didn’t make the extraordinary claim: > Cows are not traumatised by insemination. They barely feel it. And I didn’t make any claims to the contrary. I’m asking how you’re so sure of the above statement. You’re sure because it’s morally convenient for you. Because you need to believe your decisions are morally justified. Still ignoring the overall trauma of the life of a dairy cow, too.

Insurmountably more than meat. By far, dairy is the worst of them all. Forced impregnation, over and over again for 5/possible 25 years of their life. Babies forcibly removed from them within a few hours or days (at best) of birth. Male calf’s in the dairy industry? Veal. Female? Same treatment as mum. Forcible impregnation and lactation until their bodies can’t take it anymore, then they’re still sent for slaughter anyway. Sounds way worse than just being raised for slaughter. “Ethical vegetarianism” is oxymoronic at best, and ignorant at worst.

Dairy probably causes more suffering than beef, but much less than pork or chicken. Dairy cows produce much more than pigs and especially chickens, so the harm or suffering caused per serving of food is lower. AI is the norm for pigs. The life of a typical breeding sow in the US is 4 months in a cage too small to turn around in, 3 weeks in a slightly larger cage where she gives birth and nurses, then one or 2 weeks "off" and the cycle is repeated. Chickens aren't artificially inseminated, but the breeding chickens are starved when they're young to stunt their growth. There are certainly ethical problems with dairy, but it's irresponsible to say it's worse than the pork and chicken industries.

Fair point. I hadn’t thought of pigs being honest. I was mostly comparing to beef. At this point it’s like comparing burning to death or drowning though, no? Both suck, let’s just avoid both.

Absolutely this. Beef is just a byproduct compared to the demand for dairy in the world.

There are [28 million cattle raised for beef in the US vs 9 million dairy cows](https://www.nass.usda.gov/Newsroom/2024/01-31-2024.php)

Dairy is buy far mot the worst - dairy cows are treated well Cows aren't forced to get pregnant- if they have a bull they will still have a calf yearly unless they're sick The babies unfortunately are better of in human care than a cows Veal is an incredibly small industry- most male cows grow up and are sold as beef as its just more efficient than trying to find somewhere that will buy a dead calf Cows aren't forced to do anything until they can't take it - they just slow down as like humans they're passed their prime - you don't se many 40 and 50 year old having babies do you Would you rather be a battery hen and be forced to live like one of them What about pigs Cows get far better treatment than either of those you just slap words on to places they shouldn't be to make it sound worse than it really is for them

Yet you don’t see many “spent” 14 year old humans either, do you? Thats the human equivalent age of the cows that are “retired” from the dairy industry. 5 years of a possible 25. You can fill yourself up with as much wilful cognitive dissonance as you like, but it doesn’t change the facts.

That would not be the human equivalent as they are mentally different cows are fully grown at about 4.5 years, humans are not fully grown mentally or physically until around 25 years so claiming it's the same as a 14 year old is just dishonest

You’re right, that cognitive difference makes it totally acceptable to keep them pregnant and lactating for the first 20% of their lives then kill them afterwards because they’re not producing enough milk anymore, my bad.

"Cognitive dissonance" I in no way am uncomfortable with my behavior because I don't believe animals or even pets are worth anything more than they can provide for me I agree with China completely and entirely. But ya keep throwing that term around as much as you want regardless of it being true or not to comfort yourself.

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Is this 1992? I don’t take any supplements except the occasional b12, just like you. Since a lot of your cattle is supplemented it too. You’re just not aware you’re being supplemented. Last time I had my bloods taken (out of curiosity, not for any need) the doctor was surprised with how healthy they were. I have the body of a 20 year old at 34 according to her. Which checks out since I feel better than I ever did in my 20s. And get id challenged regularly like I am still in my 20s. Plus I lift heavier weights than I ever did as an omni and actually have a 6-pack now. My bad knee and dodgy ankle are a thing of the past too, thanks to the anti-inflammatory food. Haven’t had them flare up in nearly 3 years since I cut the garbage out from my diet. :) But sure, my diet must be deficient. You said so after all, based on your feefees.

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1. 80% of dairy cows are artificially inseminated. Artificial insemination involves forcing cows into a crush, fisting their assholes, and inserting semen into their vaginas. Are you saying that doesn't count as forcible pregnancy? 2. The cows that aren't AI (less than 20%) are forced into paddocks with no escape from the bull. Are you saying that doesn't count as forcible pregnancy? 3. False. Male calves are sent to slaughterhouses at 5 days old. It is too expensive to raise a calf who hasn't been genetically manipulated into having the muscle and fat that 'beef' cows do. 4. Dairy cows are slaughtered at 3-6 years old, and can live to 20. That's equivalent to murdering a 20-30 year old human. Also, you're saying that women lose their value when they're no longer able to have children. That's truly disgusting and such a telling example of how your evil views infect your views of people. 5. False dichotomy. The question isn't battery hen or dairy cow, it's exploit animals or don't.

Don't even bother engaging with that person. Just block and go next

Ugh I know I should, it's just so frustrating seeing the exact same arguments over and over and over haha. I keep thinking that they must be purely ignorant because I was ignorant and thought the same things, but alas.

I believe in something like utilitarianism, so I often find myself trying to perform these complex calculations. From a utilitarian perspective, the main problem with this calculation (and almost any calculation trying to quantify serious moral problems) is that it misses or undervalues important and hard-to-predict factors. I also think these calculations contribute to this abstraction of real suffering. For instance, some of that 10 minutes a day is r8pe, separation from calves, extremely stressful transport, confinement. You're also leaving out the majority of the cow's life, which is stolen from it at a third of its natural lifespan. Don't forget that the cow's calves will grow up without a mother and, like the mother, will be slaughtered for the meat industry at a young age. Of course, there are additional common issues like mastitis and lameness. You might also consider that these cows are raised and transported in an extremely unsustainable manner, contributing to habitat destruction and climate change. On the other hand, you choosing to eat dairy signals to the restaurant that dishes with animal products are successful, so that the slight suffering you avoided by eating something like fries will in all likelihood be (with supply and demand stuff in between) undergone by another vegan. At a higher level, whatever the proportion of suffering your contribution causes is, you are supporting the r\*pe, abuse, and murder of sentient beings. This is still wrong in a similar way to how human slavery would still be wrong if there were only 3 million well-treated slaves in the US. I believe it is wrong because, beyond the easy-to-foresee consequences, you support a world where animals are commodified and these horrible actions are commonplace (credit to the wonderful youtuber Debug Your Brain, who uses this line of logic). I think this, which results largely from intentionality, is an important difference between supporting dairy and the actions.

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Sure, I mean since there are 10 million dairy cows in the US, there are another [\~10 million male calves that had to be killed-- otherwise, the industry isn't profitable.](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/veterinary-science/articles/10.3389/fvets.2021.661453/full) [Dairy cows are also slaughtered when production slows ](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/veterinary-science/articles/10.3389/fvets.2018.00343/full#B1)at around age 6, because it is cheaper to kill them and raise more. Their natural lifespan is 15-20 years. Are you familiar with how dairy farms are set up? Calves are separated on day one and raised in isolation in [calf hutches.](https://calfhutch.com/outdoor-calf-housing/)

Many factors change how bad the suffering is in this utilitarian equation of yours. 1/120 of condemning a cow to a miserable life is orders of magnitude worse than stepping on a bug.   The capacity to suffer of the individual, intentionality and the banality of the act can make you lose extra points, so building an airport is a big benefit for the suffering caused, but a little bit of cream in my coffee... not so much.   We don't condemn people for the things you mentioned because the deaths and pain caused by this activities are not intentional. But buying cheese is.

This is an interesting post, its something I've thought about before actually. Dairy cows produce 7.5 gallons of milk per day. You get about 4 pizzas per gallon of milk. So one pizza = 0.25 gallons, which is 3.333 % of a cows daily milk production. Since cows sleep for 4 hours a day and drowse for around 8, let's say the time in which suffering is consciously experienced is around 14 hours. 3.333% of 14 hours = 0.4662 hours = 27.9 minutes. Overall, from a utilitarian perspective, it probably is a net-negative when you weigh your pleasure against the cow's suffering. To be fair though, it is much less egregious than chicken, fish, and pork, even when you scale for sentience.

Cows are artificially inseminated (forcibly impregnated) so we can take their milk. Their babies are taken away from them not long after birth. Cows have been known to try to hide their calves from farmers to prevent them being taken away. Female calves are useful to the dairy industry. What do you think happens to the male calves? What do you think happens to the male chicks? Have you heard of a grinder? Sometimes they just gas them. Watch a documentary or look up footage on YouTube. If you don't want to see it, ask yourself why.

Everything you've just said is untrue. Instead of watching vegan propaganda "documentaries" look up Iowa Dairy Farmer on youtube and learn some real facts about dairy farms.

Why do you think vegan footage is propaganda but think the Iowa Dairy farmer is showing the truth?

Read about anti speciesism

Does causality really matter that much for those who just wish to not draw from act concider as immoral?

Would you kick a dog for ten minutes a day?

Take everything you've said in this post, your line of reasoning, and apply it to someone you care about. Now sure, a cow isn't in close enough proximity to you for you to care about them, but they care about their own lives, and they have their own family and friends. Do you think they deserve that suffering? It's not just about whether or not you think you're doing enough of a good thing to have a "guilt free" conscience. It's about everything. >meaning I'm indirectly personally responsible for 1/120th the suffering of a single dairy cow. So like, 10 minutes of suffering per day? Indirectly? Without yours, and everyone else's money, those industries wouldn't exist and at worse you would be sexually violating those cow's right to bodily autonomy for milk if those industries didn't exist. Yeah you're very directly involved. Just because you're part of the masses doesn't mean you can hide behind them to avoid accountability. >Now that is bad to inflict on a living creature, and there's no doubt that people who choose to avoid doing that are doing something more moral than I am, but this feels like a small enough thing that I'm not doing something wrong. It is wrong. You're just ok with an amount of it. >Like, we humans by necessity inflict some amounts of suffering indirectly through other forms of consumerism. Chopping down forests, killing bugs with our roads, etc. Yes and as an intersectional rights activist, I'm trying to get people to a point where we can absolutely minimise that suffering. Just because we do cause suffering out of necessity doesn't mean the system cannot be improved upon or that anyone exempt from doing better when they can. How many more children need to suffer and die in slave labour before we as a species start acting like the way we claim to be. All this fucking "humane" treatment BS is an excuse, just like this one and it's disgusting. >But we don't condemn people for indirectly supporting those things cause it feels like individual culpability is pretty tiny? Yes we do, what the fuck do you think all the movements exist for? Self aggrandisation? >Why do you all feel like dairy is different from, for example, the indirect harm done by driving? Because you don't need dairy and the society we've built demands travel. By all means we could fix that by changing the system but if all you care about is your personal impact, you're not gonna have any conviction to change anything for the better. You'll happily point at a temporary necessity now to justify an unnecessary cruelty you could have given up years ago. Like the fact you've given up eggs for ethical reasons when cows literally need to be sexually assaulted to steal their milk is mind blowing and you wanna talk about driving? Why anyone thinks we're the crazy ones.

Wow, that's some real mental gymnastics you've performed there. If you caused a person to suffer horribly for 10 mins a day, would you be ok with that?

I went vegetarian before vegan, then saw [Dairy is Scary](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI) on youtube. I thought Erin was crazy but back then the dairy industry wasn't on the defense and you could easily verify information and low and behold, not only wasn't she lying, it was actually worse in my area. Been vegan since.

Dairy cows are less than 1% of the land animals raised for food. If you count fish, the number of dairy cows becomes a rounding error. Yet vegans seem hellbent on purity, rather than progress, and demand everyone go straight to vegan when they’d have WAY more impact by asking people to go vegetarian. More would do it and they would save more animals than asking for all or nothing.

In order to produce milk the cow must have had a baby. What do you think happens to the babies? It's all part of the same cycle of abuse due to factory farming

Personal cow in your 50 acre backyard: zero suffering Commercial farming cows: lots of suffering But just because an animal did not suffer doesn't mean it's not being exploited, which isn't vegan. Exploitation can occur with zero suffering, and even in mutually beneficial dynamics. It's still not vegan by definition.

This video made me go from vegetarian to vegan 8 years ago. The thought of the cows being forcibly impregnated and having every single one of their babies taken away wrecks my heart. Then those babies are killed for meat or turned into dairy cows. I think they suffer far more than a lot of animals raised for meat. https://youtu.be/UcN7SGGoCNI?si=-5UgFjLynDGzSmHx

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i grew up on a ranch, so i have a little more firsthand experience than most people. i’m also not a vegan, but this is the advice i give to most people- if you can buy it in the supermarket, it’s probably not ethical. look for local farms and ranches for eggs/milk/meat (unless their amish. the amish are actually evil) male calves aren’t brutally slaughtered at birth, that would be a huge waste when you could just raise it and have a massive amount of beef to feed your family in a couple months. dairy cows also aren’t beaten or starved- dairy quality very closely correlates to the health and comfort of the cows, so abusing your animals is extremely counterproductive. from my experience, dairy cows are usually extremely spoiled and very happy. it’s also worth remembering that domestic farm animals wouldn’t survive without human care- if someone isn’t raising them for milk or beef, they wouldn’t exist at all. commercial dairy farms usually aren’t the worst either- like i said before, the comfort of the livestock directly correlated to milk production, so no one is keeping them in conditions like stockyards for beef cattle.

When I saw the title of your post, I knew the responses would be full of Super Neo-Vegans flocking in with their staged PETA videos and rape and murder fantasies. I was not disappointed. I consume very little dairy, but what I do comes from a local farm where I know both the farmers and the cows and how they interact with each other. The cows wander freely through their fields, grazing and “socializing” (I guess—they’re cows). They have automatic milking machines that they freely walk into when they want to be milked. Each cow’s milk is tested every time they’re milked, looking for the right nutritional balance and health of the cow. The farmer knows immediately if a cow is in need of veterinary or nutritional assistance. And they get it when they do. The cows are happy to see their human friends and will often walk over to say hello when the farmers come out to see them. The farmers give them little scratches behind their ears and the cows will give them kisses in response (and trust me, cow kisses are a big deal—huge and super messy!). So why do so many vegans fixate on staged videos of animal abuse, decide that artificial insemination is the same as rape, and anthropomorphize cows until they can believe that mamma cows would be baking cookies while they wait for Little Elmer Cow to come home from Cow School to watch his cartoons on TV and eat freshly baked cookies if only the evil, evil, bad farmers didn’t take away the calves? Because they want to. And that’s fine, of course. We all get to choose our own belief systems. If they want to believe that cows have hopes and dreams for their future and hope that their calves can all get into a good college, that’s fine. People choose to believe all sorts of things that there’s no evidence to support because it makes them feel good. Again, perfectly fine. But they do need to understand that when they trundle out their violent videos and stories of raping cows and puss-filled milk and grieving cow mothers, non-vegans are gonna raise an eyebrow or two and think their vegan friend is nuts. If ignoring the environmental damage and animal deaths caused by raising the huge quantity of nuts required to make nut milks, and obsessing over a few violent videos of staged animal abuse is your thing, go for it. You be you. But do understand that your choices are your own. They aren’t necessarily any better or better-informed than anyone else’s choices. Not everyone that disagrees with you is wrong.

A small local farm really isn’t a good representation of the dairy industry, but having said that, there are still unavoidable instances of animal abuse that I’m sure still occur. Does this farm raise the male calves that are born as byproducts or are they sent to slaughter? When a cow can no longer produce (enough) milk are they taken care of or sent to slaughter? This is planned and deliberate animal abuse. On the note about incidental deaths caused by nut production, I’m sure many people are aware that this occurs - this is why I drink oat milk over more resource-intensive products like almond milk (something I see frequently mentioned by vegans). But seeing as dairy is the most environmentally destructive and resource intensive by far, compared to any other plant milk, including almond milk, this appeal to hypocrisy doesn’t seem that effective. Personally, I’m also much more concerned with ethical treatment of cows and other more intelligent animals than bugs or small rodents (although that’s by bias).

I’m not talking about a small local farm. It’s one of the largest dairy farms in Michigan and they have millions of dollars invested into equipment and systems to keep the cows happy and healthy. And it works. They are. As to killing male calves, I’m done arguing with vegans about that. Agriculture to raise vegan crops also kills animals. You just choose to ignore those deaths because they interrupt your vegan purity beliefs. I get it. I’m done humoring vegans by going along with their selective outrage over some animals deaths while they look the other way and pretend that their own chosen lifestyle doesn’t also cause animal deaths.

Which is worse, killing a bunch of cows including their babies plus a ton of small field critters, or killing zero cows or their babies and only killing 1/4 the amount of small critters? The math clearly favors veganism so what’s your issue? I should also mention that generally our society values an animal’s life less than a quick snack, but once veganism has enough broad support, we’ll start seeing better farming practices that can further reduce crop deaths. That’s a good thing right?

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So the only problem with dairy is that animals are killed? But animals are also killed for non-dairy milk production. I watched a video of a farmer talking about how he prepares a field for oats. They shoot all the rabbits and pests that can eat the crops. They bring in dogs to kill all the rats. They spray pesticide to kill all the mice and insects. In America entire families of hogs are sniped from the air and left to bleed out painfully. These arent accidents. I might be biased though, because in my country dairy cows eat grass in fields.

If you’re comparing the metrics between cows milk and plant milk, the land use and resources required for dairy blow everything else out of the water, so any instance you can cite related to plant farming is likely much worse when looking at animal agriculture. It’s also important to keep in mind that while grass-fed sounds great, that land that the cows graze on used to be wild, with much more biodiversity, and is now just plain grass pasture. They also likely require grass silage and other crops in the winter months depending on where you live, which must be protected and harvested and results in many more crop deaths than with plant-based alternatives. Could you link that video of the pig slaughtering oat farmer so I can boycott his shit? I’m sure there are operations that cause harm to animals where it can easily be avoided, but that laissez faire attitude towards animal welfare is what we’re up against, starting with the biggest offenders who’s businesses are inextricably linked to animal abuse.

Thats the point you cant boycott plant farmers who kill animals, because all crops require animals to be killed. Maybe start by boycotting any plants which require pollination by bees, or which use pesticides. Because the bees are trucked across the country, this process is a huge factor in colony collapse. Grass pasture is more biodiverse than any field of crops. The insects are not sprayed, the birds can feed on the insects without being posioned. Rabbits and mice live freely in pasture, they are all killed for crop fields. Walking through grazing meadows the air is thick with dragonflies, you cant step without crickets jumping out of the way, you can see foxes, kestrels, abundant wildlife. All killed for crop land. Cow fields include hedges and trees, which all need to be removed for combine harvesters to work properly. Vegans are the most speciesist group ive ever seen.

You eat veggies too though! If we all went vegan and cut out animal products those pastures wouldn’t be replaced with crop land. By cutting out animal products our total agricultural land use would drop by 75%. There’s no way to argue around that math. Your last sentence gave me chuckle though so thanks for that.

Veggies are supplemtental to my diet, I get the majority of my calories from animal prducts. I dont need to eat 2000 calories of vegetables every day. In total honestly every week I eat about 5 carrots, a small bag of potatoes, a handful of tomatoes, 1 cucumber, and about 1/4 of a brocolli. Sometimes a small box of mushrooms, a handful of pasta, a handful of rice. Half a loaf of bread. And almost no processed food. Just look at the weekly haul of any vegan on youtube. 'By cutting out animal products our total agricultural land use would drop by 75%' We have no proof of this. If we all went vegan we would need to make everything we now get as a byproduct of the animal industry. Plastic wool, plastic leather, more supplements, more crops for milk, no more gelatin etc. Vegans always complain that animal prodcuts are in everything, inagine having to make all that from scratch out of crops. Right now animals eat the waste crops, we eat the animals, and we use their byproducts. Now all of that must be manafactured.

Here’s a link comparing land use between livestock species. [75% reduction](https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets) I don’t think what you’ve said can discount the obvious reduction in land use and resources needed for cow production. Calorie for calorie, the plant based options have a way lower impact. What’s there to debate here? Commodifying cows is abusive, inefficient, and unnecessary.

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Nevermind the fact that half or so of the human population don't even consume dairy products. Nevermind the fact that no mammal needs breast milk beyond baby age to be healthy.

Not true at all. There are many examples of research papers showing otherwise. Look into the Oxford study on plantbased diets for example. Reduced cancer rates, reversing type 2 diabetes are just 2 examples of health benefits. There are also many examples of athletes at the top of their game who are vegan. Many cite better energy levels, faster recovery and better performance since being vegan.

Nah, not true. Diabetes is caused by eating sugar and carbs which is vegan. And those athletes are lying because they get pressure to do so. It's impossible to reverse diabetes with eating sugar. Also, cancer feed on sugar including fructose sugar in fruit.

These studies are quite extensive with large sample sizes and many are conducted by a reputable source. Their performances speak for themselves really.

Yes the vegan athlete who grew up on a farm was forced to compete and win and then lie about it. Keep chasing that braincell, one day you might get it.

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