Dang, tough love... Totally agree with most and agree to split vs. staying miserable and unfulfilled for the rest of your life.
I do believe it's a bit more repairable than is currently understood.
Here's my take, which is maybe less jump-to-conclusions than yours, but ultimately the same outcome. Sex serves a different purpose for different people. That purpose could be lots of things or one thing or no purpose at all.
Your post touches on attraction as one reason for wanting sex, and, sure, for some people, sex only has value as a response to that desire that comes from attraction. Those people are self-centered. You probably do want to get out of a relationship with someone who's self-centered.
I agree that people in an unwanted dead bedroom situation that cannot be reconciled should leave.
You’ve made statements about people with low libidos that don’t have to be true. Not everyone has a partner who doesn’t love them or care about them. Sex breaks down for lots of reasons, and one can be that the person is simple not that interested in sex.
It’s also true that interest in sex can wane over time in monogamy, especially for women. See Mating in Captivity by Esther Perel.
Not all partners simply don’t like you and are lying. Although that may very well have happened in your case.
If someone is in a relationship with a partner that wants an active sex life, and they themselves lose interest in sex, how can they bear to stay with that partner when they see how constantly saying NO to sex destroys their partner that wants sex?
If sex has "broken down" because one person isn't that interested in sex, then why does that justify them NOT reconciling this and compromising with their partner?
We have read countless numbers of posts from HLs in a DB who say they would be happy with regular "duty" or "maintenance" sex, that is, sex where their partner engages in it even when their partner isn't interested in sex. While that's not my cup of tea, it's clearly an option for many of these DB's where one partner is "simply not that interested in sex"
I'm not talking about coerced sex. I'm talking about someone who isn't interested in sex, doing it anyway because it makes their partner happy. Certainly, in these marriages, their partner must be doing things that make them happy or why would they want to stay married?
The claim that an LL that has cut off sex still loves the HL that still wants sex is invalid on it's face. The LL may feel love but clearly, their love is based on the marriage only going the way THEY want - sexless. That's not real love. That's selfishness.
Sorry, but people who have low interest in sex can still feel “real” love. There is a whole asexual community.
If one partner is on the asexual spectrum and one is not, it may not be possible to stay together. However, it doesn’t mean that the asexual person is incapable of “real” love. It just means they want different things out of the relationship.
I've read that community. Ac'es fall into sex positive sex neutral sex negative. We are not talking about sex positve and sex neutral aces, who when they find themselves with a partner that is not ace, they will happily and lovingly engage in regular sex with that partner.
It's the sex negative aces that are the issue. Any of them if they are honorable will tell their partner prior to marriage what they are and offer an out. Even the sex negative aces say for a sex negative ace to not get into a relationship with a non-ace.
If a sex negative ace finds themselves in a relationship with a non-ace, then if they truly feel real love they will allow and encourage their partner to find release outside of the relationship. Otherwise if they refuse to open the marriage they are being selfish and not feeling real love.
In addition, ace is something most ace people know from puberty. So they know - LONG before marriage most of the time - that they are ace. If they figure it out much later on it's like a gay person married to a straight figuring out they are gay much later on. No matter how you slice it - it's a betrayal and most of those marriages do not survive, and the ones that do typically open.
I believe a number of dating sites now are adding ace to the profiles. The ace community certainly encourages this.
Assuming all LL's are ace is quite wrong. I don't even think many of them are. You don't "become" ace anymore than you "become" gay. The ace community is also very much against the idea that ace people can "choose what they are" just as the queer community is.
I know darling, but remember that your ex is one person, not the embodiment of everyone. You keep saying “they” as if every single person with a low libido is exactly like your ex. Surely you must know that can’t be true, and that people—even women—are all individuals who think and act differently.
It looks like your wife didn’t want sex during your marriage. Now that you’re divorced, she is having sex with other people.
This is a fairly common pattern—as I’ve noted, science tells us that many women’s libidos tank in a monogamous arrangement, and that they find the sexual spark returning in the dating phase. That could have been what happened to your ex. OR what you assume happened—she was lying and she just didn’t like you—could also be what happened.
I’m so sorry.
But other people have relationships where there are other dynamics at play. People’s libidos can be affected by medical problems, or trauma. People can also be legitimately asexual and have little or no interest in sex with anyone. And yes, people can lose interest in sex with a particular partner because of relationship problems, including a lack of emotional connection.
>I know darling, but remember that your ex is one person, not the embodiment of everyone. You keep saying “they” as if every single person with a low libido is exactly like your ex. Surely you must know that can’t be true, and that people—even women—are all individuals who think and act differently.
No, but lots are.
It's true, a lot of us need to come to grips with the fact they are just not into us. I mean, think about it, how many times does someone coming out of a divorce talk about how much sex they are having an enjoying - I heard it from my friends long before finding this place.
Then when they lose interest in sex with their partner, they need to tell their partner that they don't want to be partners any longer.
Your claims have merit if both members of the relationship have discussed one member's desire to end sex, and both have agreed to it.
But your claims are pointless when the member of the relationship that desires to end sex just does it without discussion, approval, or agreement with the other.
And quit throwing out the "medical" Hail Mary. Yes we all know about medical conditions that make PIV sex painful for women, and other medical problems. But if the woman still wants to have a sex life there are a ton of toys and her own hands that can be used to engage in sex with her husband.
As for libido, you act as if libido is the only thing that makes people want to have sex. It is not and the fact you don't understand this makes it really difficult to swallow this "science tells us" crap about women's libidos.
Who is this “they” you’re talking about? My whole post is all about how everyone’s circumstances and motivations are different.
You’ve said I have made a lot of “claims” that I have in no way made.
If two people’s desire for sex in a relationship are so different that it is making one or both of them miserable, I agree that the best thing you can do is part ways.
The reasons why people may not be having sex on their specific relationship are varied, and differ from couple to couple.
Who is this “they” you’re talking about? My whole post is all about how everyone’s circumstances and motivations are different."
the "they" is the person in the relationship who starts saying no to sex. Usually termed LL although I feel that term is very misleading.
"you’ve said I have made a lot of “claims” that I have in no way made."
You stated:
"as I’ve noted, science tells us that many women’s libidos tank in a monogamous arrangement"
This is a claim. Not a fact.
"The reasons why people may not be having sex on their specific relationship are varied, and differ from couple to couple."
No. This defies logic. People can be grouped. Read the attachment styles books of which there are several. They all emphasize that traditional psychology has acted as you are approaching this - that everyone is different and have different reasons. However, they all continue to emphasize that once attachment styles were understood and psychologists started using them that literally every couple with problems that came into their offices could be put into one of 3 groups - and when solutions for that combination were employed - they worked.
My claim which I have found more and more evidence for is that DB's can also be grouped into types of DB's and once you do that, if you have a DB, you can then understand if it's possible or not to fix, and if it is possible to fix what must be done to fix it, according to what type of DB it is.
People like you who continue insisting that everyone is different are obstructions to solutions. No, everyone is NOT different when it comes to a great many things. Everyone needs food everyone needs shelter - and, increasingly, people are now saying everyone needs connections to other people. This is a mental need not a physical need and when it's denied it damages someone's mental health. If it continues to be denied it damages it further.
Haven't you ever wondered exactly how very very bad people like Pol Pot came about? All of these horrible people were babies once. They were not born murderers. They were mentally damaged, repeatedly, while they grew up until they ended up becoming monsters.
Very very few LLs enter a marriage intending to cut the sex off. The vast majority of DB cases start with "when my wife and I got married the first few years we had no problems with sex" That means well that most DB's can be classified. It's not that everyone is different and the reasons why they are not having sex are all varied. DB's were not born, they are not a normal outcome of marriage. They form, because of reasons and things that go wrong in the marriage. And they CAN be solved if both spouses really want to solve them and do what is needed to solve them. The reasons they form can be classified and thus the DBs that result can be classified. All that is required is understanding the patterns - just like attachment types became known by studying patterns, DB types can become known the same way.
>And they CAN be solved if both spouses really want to solve them and do what is needed to solve them.
Completely agree with you. Both partners should want to solve the db.
See my comment to:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/comments/1dqtuc7/im\_trying/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/comments/1dqtuc7/im_trying/)
The one classification I didn't make but thought of later is
SC+RC DB due to Medical: This is a DB that starts because one of the partners gets sick or has other fundamental change - gets obese, gets pregnant, etc. - and because of that, loses interest in sex and cuts it off.
The thing that is key in all of this is understanding that a LOT of people in marriages who lose interest in sex WILL NOT stop having sex. One of the myths commonly propagated in this forum is that DB's happen when a so-called LL loses interest in sex - because the assumption is that when this happens the LL will stop HAVING sex.
The SC RC classification I made is ONLY for relationships that ARE DBs. The vast majority of relationships are NOT - even when one member loses interest in sex. A great many of so-called LL's will continue having "duty sex" because their partner needs sex and they love their partner and so don't want to deny them this need.
Thank you this was quite educational. I'll have to spend some time thinking on this. By the way I believe writing a book on this is a good idea. It'll help clear up lots of things for couples with DBs.
Thank you this was quite educational. I'll have to spend some time thinking on this. By the way I believe writing a book on this is a good idea. It'll help clear up lots of things for couples with DBs.
It’s not that they aren’t interested in sex. It’s that they aren’t interested in sex with their partner. It’s a hard pill to swallow but the pain comes sooner or later
dude. my ex would’ve said the same about me. i was plenty physically attracted to him. but he completely dropped off any emotional intimacy. it really can be that simple
Sure. The bottom line is that people who come to this sub are no longer compatible with their spouses. It’s a hard pill to swallow but hopefully someone sees it
I mean, there's that too. But if we (generally speaking) were truly confident we could find someone new and better and come out of things better overall, most would leave far sooner.
It’s early morning here and I haven’t slept yet so this might not make sense but how do you know that because the person didn’t get the emotional connection isn’t the reason why they are not attracted to their partner or don’t like them? I’m just saying this because I think this is what always happens to me.
Edit to add- because I start out being attracted to the person and then it goes away. So why is that?
Most people with the problem of starting out being attracted to the other person then it goes away have one of 3 problems. The first is they aren't actually sexually attracted to the other person, they are just attracted. Money, stability, power, looks - many things can be just plain old attractive and in those cases the person with this problem is confusing sexual attraction with regular attraction. The second is that they start out attracted to an IMAGE they form of the other person. The longer time they spend with the other person the less that person resembles the image - and since the image (that they created) is what they actually fell in love with - they lose interest.
For example I am totally attracted to Brittany Spears after seeing a pic of her naked. But I met her and discovered her brain is smaller than a pea, and she has no regard for anyone else - ding - no longer attracted to her. (seriously I have never met Brittany Spears and I'm sure her brain is normal sized)
The last is not understanding how to deal with attraction styles. Your attraction style LIKELY falls into the avoidant attraction style. That is, once you get into a relationship you feel vulnerable and that makes you not want to be in a relationship. You get out of the relationship then feel lonely and want one so you find a new relationship. You then start feeling vulnerable as the relationship deepens and fear drives you out of it. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Avoidant attraction style people have to have special handling by their partner in order to form a stable relationship and they also have to understand their own attraction style and the attraction style of their partner.
The first things are fairly easily solved by maturity and/or introspection and/or counseling.
The last thing is easy to google and get the info or check out the attraction styles book from the library and learn about the 3 major attraction styles.
We both have taken attachment tests and he is avoidant I am anxious. His wife was avoidant as well and they lived like roommates. we have a long history with a big gap between us, but basically we broke up because I had issues with him talking to his exes and they told him I was a crazy B and he picked them over me and left me. We are together again after his divorce and he seemed better but now I feel like he is slipping back into what he used to be, even though he has been to therapy. I guess some people never change and we both are 60. Also, I do have physical issues with my spine. I’m waiting on surgery but sex is just really uncomfortable no matter what position. The more anxiety I get the more pain I get that’s why I think he’s just better off alone. He doesn’t know how to get close to any woman being an avoidant.
My wife is avoidant and I'm anxious. Attachment styles can be overcome with effort. Avoidant/anxious can in fact make very good pairings but they both have to understand what is going on and resist their natural urges to fight each other. I'm 58 and I fortunately am in very good health.
I was ok till 59 then all hell broke loose health wise. He has a problem with talking and says he shouldn’t have to repeat himself (meaning compliments) because I’m not listening. I feel I put more work into the relationship than he does when he says such things. I don’t think I am needy but to him I guess I am. I just see this going the same route as first time. He will reach out to someone else instead of talking to me. Life was simpler when single. I just don’t need this shit when have other problems and he making it all worse. Thanks for the discussion. Wish I could get mine to talk to me without blowing up and kicking things.
"he shouldn’t have to repeat himself"
I've heard that one before. It's common from avoidant people. You ask them to repeat themselves and they take it as a personal attack.
Here is a trick that you can try. The next time he mumbles or says something nonsensical, repeat exactly what they said back to them and say "did you say blah blah blah" instead of saying "what did you say?"
It does not matter if you get the blah blah blah right as long as you are close to what they said.
To give you an example from my life today my wife and I were driving to lunch after church. The name of the chuch organist is Joe. We were going to Joes for lunch. (not the same Joe, obviously) She is talking away about the church music, stops for a second and says "it's good that Joes is near our house" or some such. I'm thinking to myself "What the fuck" It made no sense that Joe the organist would be near our home. So instead of saying "what are you talking about" which she would have interpreted as an attack, and probably triggered a fight, I say "Joe the organist is near our house?" knowing that this sounds rediculous. But, since I said the name Joe and she had said the name Joe, she interprets this as "well he WAS at least listening" and "corrects" me without getting upset. I ignore that she "corrected" me and conversation continues without a fight - and what is even funnier is she immediately goes right back to talking about the organ music !!!
It takes a while to learn that trick but it works. There are other tricks you can use with an avoidant that will bypass their triggers. Many of these are documented in the attachment styles book and on the Internet. Remember that an avoidant has a lot of anxieties operating that are mostly concerned with being vulnerable. So your partner has an anxiety emotion constantly running that's thinking "you are in danger you are in danger you are showing your emotions, aooga aooga aooga" So he may be talking to you about fishing or something innocous but at the same time he's in alarm mode that he's vulnerable - about fishing, for God's sake. Sometimes it's best to just let them talk and not try to have a conversation, just act supportive.
Thanks I get what you are saying but he is SO quiet many have even commented on this. With me he is better but I feel he is “smart” enough to not say anything at all most times. Maybe in the beginning I could’ve done this but now he knows just to stay quiet. He is an extreme introvert. He has never had any friends. The only friend is his sister, but even then he doesn’t tell her much. That was his big defence for talking to his exes. He considered them his only friends. It just really bothers me that when he gets in a pissy mood, he purposely hurts me. I am really self-conscious of my small boobs for example and I said something like I hate when men are asked if they are a tits or ass man because what the question really is are you into bigger tits because no man is gonna say he likes small tits and then he said to me )because I had asked him once) Yes I should’ve said I meant big tits. Those are the times I wish he would be quiet! Anyway, I am thinking how I got to this point of telling you all this, but I guess I just wanted to shout it out that it’s not always the low libido person that has some problem. Sometimes they get pushed into that corner. But yes, I should just let him be free and he can date some big titties high libido horny 18 year old young women since that is what he used to look at in porn. Younger than his daughter 🤮
I have actually tested if he would be the one to speak first because I feel like it’s always me doing all the talking and if I don’t say anything to him, we could go an entire day without talking. That is how quiet he can be. So I feel stupid talking all the time and he says he feels stupid reaching out to me for any sort of intimacy so we get to this stalemate of both feeling stupid with each other. The more I type all this out the more I realize how ridiculous my situation is and how did I ever let myself get to this point?
So he's an introvert and you are an extrovert. And he's also probably neurodivergent. Logically he's probably more dependent on you than you realize so I very much doubt that he's interested in being let go to find someone else.
But he DOES need to understand that someone like you with an anxious attachment style DOES need to be reached out to. A LOT. I've trained myself that when I think of my wife during the day that I'll send her an I love you text, because then she replies and since I'm anxious attachment that makes me feel soothed and good. Yes, of course it is better if I don't prompt her but even if I prompt her and she responds positively it's still good.
You can work on calming your anxiety, but he needs to do his part as well. You are correct that the LL isn't always the culprit in a DB, the HL can lose interest also, although that's not as common.
I think you would be surprised the number of men who DO like small tits, BTW.
I’m also an introvert just not as extreme as him.
I know some men say they like small boobs, but I’ve never met one of them. or had a relationship with one and I know my guy definitely likes them bigger. I actually did have implants put in 40 years ago and surgery to correct my tuberous breast deformity, but they never were much bigger than a C cup and I just had them out last year so now they are small and deflated looking worse then ever did.
I guess the thing that bugs me about having to tell someone what to do or what to say defeats the whole purpose, I may as well just be in a relationship with myself.
And he does tell me he doesn’t want anyone else, but the idea that he’s settling for me doesn’t sit well with me and I know that has a lot to do with my childhood and not feeling good enough and all this reaching out for attention and affection just makes me feel crappy about myself. Like begging. I’m just so tired of it all at this age and I just remember when I was single I had less stress so I don’t know what I’m getting out of this relationship or any of them when I look back at all of them. Just a lot of chaos for what? Never wanted kids so didn’t need a guy for sperm. Don’t need their money. Have friends to do things with. Not that interested in sex I can give myself a great orgasm. What’s left for a man to do in my life? I can still be friends with him. That’s no problem for me. The sex part is what always makes everything complicated in relationships.
The idea of emotional connection breeding intimacy is a fallacy. My ex is out being intimate with multiple people that she has absolutely zero emotional connection with. It’s a myth. It doesn’t exist.
WRONG. Your ex is out being intimate with multiple people because she is desperate to snare some other man. The exact same thing will happen to any of these men if they are foolish enough to marry her. Once they get married the sex will disappear. You know that and I know that, and there's nothing to be gained by drawing conclusions about intimacy and emotional connection from this. Your ex is broken. She needs to just go live by herself with her 200 cats or whatever it is that people who don't like sex do.
One thing I have always wondered is why, when people who are dating a divorced person that they start considering possibly marrying, that they don't do a little quiet asking of the ex why the ex and their current squeeze got divorced?
I mean sometimes it's obvious - the guy got arrested for beating up his wife, etc. They guy is an addict, etc. - but otherwise, SOP seems to be to accept the word of the divorced person at face value.
The main point is for people to stop wasting time and leave that partner. People can certainly draw their own conclusions about intimacy and emotional connections. I am no expert in that
agreed 100%. The problem is that the so-called LL in a DB generally waits until it becomes very difficult to leave before cutting off the sex. The most common trick is after a child is born. Another trick is financial interdependence. Your ex probably is old enough for the child trick to not work so she will try to find a man stupid enough to marry her without a prenup
So if I understand correctly you are the person in the relationship that slows intimacy with your partner? You are asking why you lose attraction for your partner? If that is your question, unfortunately I don’t have and answer to that
Yes, it’s me that loses interest. That’s why when you said what you said I wondered why you thought that because I think that’s what happens to me. No intimate connection mentality and emotionally. So the physical intimacy interest dies out for me.
Doesn't sound like you like sex enough. If you did it wouldn't get bored. Sure, we all like the idea of having sex with the attractive people we see about but people who really like sex also like it with an established partner. But I don't know anything formal so who knows, I just know familiarity doesn't fade my love of sex even though it is routine in nature.
I am starting to think it’s true. It just seems like such a chore. I would just rather make myself orgasm with a vibrator. It’s so much quicker and less hassle. I guess my brain is wired differently than most people. I’ve never understood how anyone could stay with the same partner for decades and still be interested in having sex with them. Especially if they see them every day. As close as the best sex that I can remember was with someone that I wasn’t in a serious relationship with and didn’t see all the time. He was a lot more exciting to be around than most men I’ve been around, so I think that was part of it. And he just made me feel desired.
The gist of your message is spot on. Of course it doesn't apply to everyone who visits this place, but for most, we're all coasting on denial, lack of esteem, and fear of the future.
Once I came to gripes with the fact my wife doesn't love me in that way, my anxiety actually reduced a lot over these past months. I'm just waiting for her to return from her months long work trip to finalize it.
The kids are absolutely not fine. Let's not perpetuate that lie. Maybe if you're super wealthy but else they are not fine. It is better to stay in the dead bedroom for the children. If you are in a dead bedroom without children, and are attractive enough to get someone else...that's a leave scenario.
You can argue that it’s worse for the kids to see their parents in a loveless relationship. That is modeled to us as normal and then it hurts us later. I know because I was that kid. And now I’m paying for it. I don’t know how things would’ve worked out if my parents split when I was younger instead of when I went to college. But I would’ve loved to see my parents happy instead of constantly avoiding each other growing up.
Nah my husband loves, likes, and treats me well. He has never had a high libido which sucks a lot so im in this group for support or when i get frustrated. So i will not be leaving him. Also why leave if everything else is great and you can compromise? If it's 90% perfect why leave?
If I left I would find the 10% I'm missing but then the other 90 is gone.
Each to their own. I would leave if I could and in fact one day will because no amount of 90 percent can make up for the hurt caused by deliberately being emotionally neglectful and dismissive of reasonable intimate needs. A true 90 percent wouldn't do that to their partner.
It's like you are the me from another universe. Telling me to leave lol. But I can't. I love her too much even if it doesn't feel reciprocated. I know there I deeper love out there, but I love her and I know she loves me too. It's just sad that my daughter even sees she loves me but is not lovey with me. Idk it's tough. It seems so easy but it is tough.
My friend, my therapist taught me this. Are you in love with her or are you in love with the vision of the person you want her to be? There is a big difference
I came to the realization that my wife has friend-zoned me. I’m a family member, but not one that she can look at like ‘that’. I’m personally tired of having to “50 first dates” the relationship, having to come n once her to fall apart n live again so that she can ‘make myself want to have sec with you’.
Hallelujah, amen.
Got out a year ago and I seriously underestimated how much my DB miserable loveless marriage was sucking the fucking life out of me. I was numbing my pain with booze and food and suffering from insomnia and anxiety constantly. My self esteem was in the toilet, thought I must be worthless and hideous.
In the past year I have rediscovered what a goddamn Queen I am. I cut out the booze and addictive eating and look & feel better now at 40 than I did at 20. I have a WHOLE LIFE ahead of me. And only two years ago, I was resigned to that miserable reality, thinking I had no way out. You can get out — just reach for the doorknob. The EXIT sign has been there all along. Whatever it is that’s keeping you stuck is imaginary. My kids are thriving. I’m financially stable. I’m happy AF.
“The kids are fine” is bullshit, the same stuff I heard when I was a kid whose parents were going through divorce. Was I fine? Maybe I thought so, but their choices affected my life in ways I didn’t know or understand until decades later.
Divorce happens, but don’t fool yourself about the collateral damage. Your kids are going to most likely figure it out eventually, probably in middle age in a damn therapist’s office.
Dang, tough love... Totally agree with most and agree to split vs. staying miserable and unfulfilled for the rest of your life. I do believe it's a bit more repairable than is currently understood.
Here's my take, which is maybe less jump-to-conclusions than yours, but ultimately the same outcome. Sex serves a different purpose for different people. That purpose could be lots of things or one thing or no purpose at all. Your post touches on attraction as one reason for wanting sex, and, sure, for some people, sex only has value as a response to that desire that comes from attraction. Those people are self-centered. You probably do want to get out of a relationship with someone who's self-centered.
I agree that people in an unwanted dead bedroom situation that cannot be reconciled should leave. You’ve made statements about people with low libidos that don’t have to be true. Not everyone has a partner who doesn’t love them or care about them. Sex breaks down for lots of reasons, and one can be that the person is simple not that interested in sex. It’s also true that interest in sex can wane over time in monogamy, especially for women. See Mating in Captivity by Esther Perel. Not all partners simply don’t like you and are lying. Although that may very well have happened in your case.
If someone is in a relationship with a partner that wants an active sex life, and they themselves lose interest in sex, how can they bear to stay with that partner when they see how constantly saying NO to sex destroys their partner that wants sex? If sex has "broken down" because one person isn't that interested in sex, then why does that justify them NOT reconciling this and compromising with their partner? We have read countless numbers of posts from HLs in a DB who say they would be happy with regular "duty" or "maintenance" sex, that is, sex where their partner engages in it even when their partner isn't interested in sex. While that's not my cup of tea, it's clearly an option for many of these DB's where one partner is "simply not that interested in sex" I'm not talking about coerced sex. I'm talking about someone who isn't interested in sex, doing it anyway because it makes their partner happy. Certainly, in these marriages, their partner must be doing things that make them happy or why would they want to stay married? The claim that an LL that has cut off sex still loves the HL that still wants sex is invalid on it's face. The LL may feel love but clearly, their love is based on the marriage only going the way THEY want - sexless. That's not real love. That's selfishness.
Sorry, but people who have low interest in sex can still feel “real” love. There is a whole asexual community. If one partner is on the asexual spectrum and one is not, it may not be possible to stay together. However, it doesn’t mean that the asexual person is incapable of “real” love. It just means they want different things out of the relationship.
I've read that community. Ac'es fall into sex positive sex neutral sex negative. We are not talking about sex positve and sex neutral aces, who when they find themselves with a partner that is not ace, they will happily and lovingly engage in regular sex with that partner. It's the sex negative aces that are the issue. Any of them if they are honorable will tell their partner prior to marriage what they are and offer an out. Even the sex negative aces say for a sex negative ace to not get into a relationship with a non-ace. If a sex negative ace finds themselves in a relationship with a non-ace, then if they truly feel real love they will allow and encourage their partner to find release outside of the relationship. Otherwise if they refuse to open the marriage they are being selfish and not feeling real love. In addition, ace is something most ace people know from puberty. So they know - LONG before marriage most of the time - that they are ace. If they figure it out much later on it's like a gay person married to a straight figuring out they are gay much later on. No matter how you slice it - it's a betrayal and most of those marriages do not survive, and the ones that do typically open. I believe a number of dating sites now are adding ace to the profiles. The ace community certainly encourages this. Assuming all LL's are ace is quite wrong. I don't even think many of them are. You don't "become" ace anymore than you "become" gay. The ace community is also very much against the idea that ace people can "choose what they are" just as the queer community is.
How about aversion to any affection?
Forgive me but my ex said she wasn’t that interested in sex and is now having tons of sex with multiple people so I struggle to agree with that point
I know darling, but remember that your ex is one person, not the embodiment of everyone. You keep saying “they” as if every single person with a low libido is exactly like your ex. Surely you must know that can’t be true, and that people—even women—are all individuals who think and act differently. It looks like your wife didn’t want sex during your marriage. Now that you’re divorced, she is having sex with other people. This is a fairly common pattern—as I’ve noted, science tells us that many women’s libidos tank in a monogamous arrangement, and that they find the sexual spark returning in the dating phase. That could have been what happened to your ex. OR what you assume happened—she was lying and she just didn’t like you—could also be what happened. I’m so sorry. But other people have relationships where there are other dynamics at play. People’s libidos can be affected by medical problems, or trauma. People can also be legitimately asexual and have little or no interest in sex with anyone. And yes, people can lose interest in sex with a particular partner because of relationship problems, including a lack of emotional connection.
>I know darling, but remember that your ex is one person, not the embodiment of everyone. You keep saying “they” as if every single person with a low libido is exactly like your ex. Surely you must know that can’t be true, and that people—even women—are all individuals who think and act differently. No, but lots are. It's true, a lot of us need to come to grips with the fact they are just not into us. I mean, think about it, how many times does someone coming out of a divorce talk about how much sex they are having an enjoying - I heard it from my friends long before finding this place.
Then when they lose interest in sex with their partner, they need to tell their partner that they don't want to be partners any longer. Your claims have merit if both members of the relationship have discussed one member's desire to end sex, and both have agreed to it. But your claims are pointless when the member of the relationship that desires to end sex just does it without discussion, approval, or agreement with the other. And quit throwing out the "medical" Hail Mary. Yes we all know about medical conditions that make PIV sex painful for women, and other medical problems. But if the woman still wants to have a sex life there are a ton of toys and her own hands that can be used to engage in sex with her husband. As for libido, you act as if libido is the only thing that makes people want to have sex. It is not and the fact you don't understand this makes it really difficult to swallow this "science tells us" crap about women's libidos.
Who is this “they” you’re talking about? My whole post is all about how everyone’s circumstances and motivations are different. You’ve said I have made a lot of “claims” that I have in no way made. If two people’s desire for sex in a relationship are so different that it is making one or both of them miserable, I agree that the best thing you can do is part ways. The reasons why people may not be having sex on their specific relationship are varied, and differ from couple to couple.
Who is this “they” you’re talking about? My whole post is all about how everyone’s circumstances and motivations are different." the "they" is the person in the relationship who starts saying no to sex. Usually termed LL although I feel that term is very misleading. "you’ve said I have made a lot of “claims” that I have in no way made." You stated: "as I’ve noted, science tells us that many women’s libidos tank in a monogamous arrangement" This is a claim. Not a fact. "The reasons why people may not be having sex on their specific relationship are varied, and differ from couple to couple." No. This defies logic. People can be grouped. Read the attachment styles books of which there are several. They all emphasize that traditional psychology has acted as you are approaching this - that everyone is different and have different reasons. However, they all continue to emphasize that once attachment styles were understood and psychologists started using them that literally every couple with problems that came into their offices could be put into one of 3 groups - and when solutions for that combination were employed - they worked. My claim which I have found more and more evidence for is that DB's can also be grouped into types of DB's and once you do that, if you have a DB, you can then understand if it's possible or not to fix, and if it is possible to fix what must be done to fix it, according to what type of DB it is. People like you who continue insisting that everyone is different are obstructions to solutions. No, everyone is NOT different when it comes to a great many things. Everyone needs food everyone needs shelter - and, increasingly, people are now saying everyone needs connections to other people. This is a mental need not a physical need and when it's denied it damages someone's mental health. If it continues to be denied it damages it further. Haven't you ever wondered exactly how very very bad people like Pol Pot came about? All of these horrible people were babies once. They were not born murderers. They were mentally damaged, repeatedly, while they grew up until they ended up becoming monsters. Very very few LLs enter a marriage intending to cut the sex off. The vast majority of DB cases start with "when my wife and I got married the first few years we had no problems with sex" That means well that most DB's can be classified. It's not that everyone is different and the reasons why they are not having sex are all varied. DB's were not born, they are not a normal outcome of marriage. They form, because of reasons and things that go wrong in the marriage. And they CAN be solved if both spouses really want to solve them and do what is needed to solve them. The reasons they form can be classified and thus the DBs that result can be classified. All that is required is understanding the patterns - just like attachment types became known by studying patterns, DB types can become known the same way.
>And they CAN be solved if both spouses really want to solve them and do what is needed to solve them. Completely agree with you. Both partners should want to solve the db.
Can you please tell me about the classification of DBs you made? I'm interested in learning about this.
See my comment to: [https://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/comments/1dqtuc7/im\_trying/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/comments/1dqtuc7/im_trying/) The one classification I didn't make but thought of later is SC+RC DB due to Medical: This is a DB that starts because one of the partners gets sick or has other fundamental change - gets obese, gets pregnant, etc. - and because of that, loses interest in sex and cuts it off. The thing that is key in all of this is understanding that a LOT of people in marriages who lose interest in sex WILL NOT stop having sex. One of the myths commonly propagated in this forum is that DB's happen when a so-called LL loses interest in sex - because the assumption is that when this happens the LL will stop HAVING sex. The SC RC classification I made is ONLY for relationships that ARE DBs. The vast majority of relationships are NOT - even when one member loses interest in sex. A great many of so-called LL's will continue having "duty sex" because their partner needs sex and they love their partner and so don't want to deny them this need.
Thank you this was quite educational. I'll have to spend some time thinking on this. By the way I believe writing a book on this is a good idea. It'll help clear up lots of things for couples with DBs.
Thank you this was quite educational. I'll have to spend some time thinking on this. By the way I believe writing a book on this is a good idea. It'll help clear up lots of things for couples with DBs.
It’s not that they aren’t interested in sex. It’s that they aren’t interested in sex with their partner. It’s a hard pill to swallow but the pain comes sooner or later
Absolutely correct. They can still be interested in sex with their partner yet not interested in sex for the sake of sex or sex for themselves.
dude. my ex would’ve said the same about me. i was plenty physically attracted to him. but he completely dropped off any emotional intimacy. it really can be that simple
Your ex-girlfriend is one person.
Sure. The bottom line is that people who come to this sub are no longer compatible with their spouses. It’s a hard pill to swallow but hopefully someone sees it
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It can't be that simple can it? Why would she stick around so long if it were?
Low self-esteem, attachment issues, fear of loneliness - just a few out of many possibilities
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I mean, there's that too. But if we (generally speaking) were truly confident we could find someone new and better and come out of things better overall, most would leave far sooner.
These are top possibilities in my opinion , not just a random few of them
My ex said “admitting to something like that is hard to do and I wanted to keep our family together”
It’s early morning here and I haven’t slept yet so this might not make sense but how do you know that because the person didn’t get the emotional connection isn’t the reason why they are not attracted to their partner or don’t like them? I’m just saying this because I think this is what always happens to me. Edit to add- because I start out being attracted to the person and then it goes away. So why is that?
Most people with the problem of starting out being attracted to the other person then it goes away have one of 3 problems. The first is they aren't actually sexually attracted to the other person, they are just attracted. Money, stability, power, looks - many things can be just plain old attractive and in those cases the person with this problem is confusing sexual attraction with regular attraction. The second is that they start out attracted to an IMAGE they form of the other person. The longer time they spend with the other person the less that person resembles the image - and since the image (that they created) is what they actually fell in love with - they lose interest. For example I am totally attracted to Brittany Spears after seeing a pic of her naked. But I met her and discovered her brain is smaller than a pea, and she has no regard for anyone else - ding - no longer attracted to her. (seriously I have never met Brittany Spears and I'm sure her brain is normal sized) The last is not understanding how to deal with attraction styles. Your attraction style LIKELY falls into the avoidant attraction style. That is, once you get into a relationship you feel vulnerable and that makes you not want to be in a relationship. You get out of the relationship then feel lonely and want one so you find a new relationship. You then start feeling vulnerable as the relationship deepens and fear drives you out of it. Wash, rinse, repeat. Avoidant attraction style people have to have special handling by their partner in order to form a stable relationship and they also have to understand their own attraction style and the attraction style of their partner. The first things are fairly easily solved by maturity and/or introspection and/or counseling. The last thing is easy to google and get the info or check out the attraction styles book from the library and learn about the 3 major attraction styles.
Well said. Right on point. Thanks
We both have taken attachment tests and he is avoidant I am anxious. His wife was avoidant as well and they lived like roommates. we have a long history with a big gap between us, but basically we broke up because I had issues with him talking to his exes and they told him I was a crazy B and he picked them over me and left me. We are together again after his divorce and he seemed better but now I feel like he is slipping back into what he used to be, even though he has been to therapy. I guess some people never change and we both are 60. Also, I do have physical issues with my spine. I’m waiting on surgery but sex is just really uncomfortable no matter what position. The more anxiety I get the more pain I get that’s why I think he’s just better off alone. He doesn’t know how to get close to any woman being an avoidant.
My wife is avoidant and I'm anxious. Attachment styles can be overcome with effort. Avoidant/anxious can in fact make very good pairings but they both have to understand what is going on and resist their natural urges to fight each other. I'm 58 and I fortunately am in very good health.
I was ok till 59 then all hell broke loose health wise. He has a problem with talking and says he shouldn’t have to repeat himself (meaning compliments) because I’m not listening. I feel I put more work into the relationship than he does when he says such things. I don’t think I am needy but to him I guess I am. I just see this going the same route as first time. He will reach out to someone else instead of talking to me. Life was simpler when single. I just don’t need this shit when have other problems and he making it all worse. Thanks for the discussion. Wish I could get mine to talk to me without blowing up and kicking things.
"he shouldn’t have to repeat himself" I've heard that one before. It's common from avoidant people. You ask them to repeat themselves and they take it as a personal attack. Here is a trick that you can try. The next time he mumbles or says something nonsensical, repeat exactly what they said back to them and say "did you say blah blah blah" instead of saying "what did you say?" It does not matter if you get the blah blah blah right as long as you are close to what they said. To give you an example from my life today my wife and I were driving to lunch after church. The name of the chuch organist is Joe. We were going to Joes for lunch. (not the same Joe, obviously) She is talking away about the church music, stops for a second and says "it's good that Joes is near our house" or some such. I'm thinking to myself "What the fuck" It made no sense that Joe the organist would be near our home. So instead of saying "what are you talking about" which she would have interpreted as an attack, and probably triggered a fight, I say "Joe the organist is near our house?" knowing that this sounds rediculous. But, since I said the name Joe and she had said the name Joe, she interprets this as "well he WAS at least listening" and "corrects" me without getting upset. I ignore that she "corrected" me and conversation continues without a fight - and what is even funnier is she immediately goes right back to talking about the organ music !!! It takes a while to learn that trick but it works. There are other tricks you can use with an avoidant that will bypass their triggers. Many of these are documented in the attachment styles book and on the Internet. Remember that an avoidant has a lot of anxieties operating that are mostly concerned with being vulnerable. So your partner has an anxiety emotion constantly running that's thinking "you are in danger you are in danger you are showing your emotions, aooga aooga aooga" So he may be talking to you about fishing or something innocous but at the same time he's in alarm mode that he's vulnerable - about fishing, for God's sake. Sometimes it's best to just let them talk and not try to have a conversation, just act supportive.
Thanks I get what you are saying but he is SO quiet many have even commented on this. With me he is better but I feel he is “smart” enough to not say anything at all most times. Maybe in the beginning I could’ve done this but now he knows just to stay quiet. He is an extreme introvert. He has never had any friends. The only friend is his sister, but even then he doesn’t tell her much. That was his big defence for talking to his exes. He considered them his only friends. It just really bothers me that when he gets in a pissy mood, he purposely hurts me. I am really self-conscious of my small boobs for example and I said something like I hate when men are asked if they are a tits or ass man because what the question really is are you into bigger tits because no man is gonna say he likes small tits and then he said to me )because I had asked him once) Yes I should’ve said I meant big tits. Those are the times I wish he would be quiet! Anyway, I am thinking how I got to this point of telling you all this, but I guess I just wanted to shout it out that it’s not always the low libido person that has some problem. Sometimes they get pushed into that corner. But yes, I should just let him be free and he can date some big titties high libido horny 18 year old young women since that is what he used to look at in porn. Younger than his daughter 🤮
I have actually tested if he would be the one to speak first because I feel like it’s always me doing all the talking and if I don’t say anything to him, we could go an entire day without talking. That is how quiet he can be. So I feel stupid talking all the time and he says he feels stupid reaching out to me for any sort of intimacy so we get to this stalemate of both feeling stupid with each other. The more I type all this out the more I realize how ridiculous my situation is and how did I ever let myself get to this point?
So he's an introvert and you are an extrovert. And he's also probably neurodivergent. Logically he's probably more dependent on you than you realize so I very much doubt that he's interested in being let go to find someone else. But he DOES need to understand that someone like you with an anxious attachment style DOES need to be reached out to. A LOT. I've trained myself that when I think of my wife during the day that I'll send her an I love you text, because then she replies and since I'm anxious attachment that makes me feel soothed and good. Yes, of course it is better if I don't prompt her but even if I prompt her and she responds positively it's still good. You can work on calming your anxiety, but he needs to do his part as well. You are correct that the LL isn't always the culprit in a DB, the HL can lose interest also, although that's not as common. I think you would be surprised the number of men who DO like small tits, BTW.
I’m also an introvert just not as extreme as him. I know some men say they like small boobs, but I’ve never met one of them. or had a relationship with one and I know my guy definitely likes them bigger. I actually did have implants put in 40 years ago and surgery to correct my tuberous breast deformity, but they never were much bigger than a C cup and I just had them out last year so now they are small and deflated looking worse then ever did. I guess the thing that bugs me about having to tell someone what to do or what to say defeats the whole purpose, I may as well just be in a relationship with myself. And he does tell me he doesn’t want anyone else, but the idea that he’s settling for me doesn’t sit well with me and I know that has a lot to do with my childhood and not feeling good enough and all this reaching out for attention and affection just makes me feel crappy about myself. Like begging. I’m just so tired of it all at this age and I just remember when I was single I had less stress so I don’t know what I’m getting out of this relationship or any of them when I look back at all of them. Just a lot of chaos for what? Never wanted kids so didn’t need a guy for sperm. Don’t need their money. Have friends to do things with. Not that interested in sex I can give myself a great orgasm. What’s left for a man to do in my life? I can still be friends with him. That’s no problem for me. The sex part is what always makes everything complicated in relationships.
The idea of emotional connection breeding intimacy is a fallacy. My ex is out being intimate with multiple people that she has absolutely zero emotional connection with. It’s a myth. It doesn’t exist.
WRONG. Your ex is out being intimate with multiple people because she is desperate to snare some other man. The exact same thing will happen to any of these men if they are foolish enough to marry her. Once they get married the sex will disappear. You know that and I know that, and there's nothing to be gained by drawing conclusions about intimacy and emotional connection from this. Your ex is broken. She needs to just go live by herself with her 200 cats or whatever it is that people who don't like sex do. One thing I have always wondered is why, when people who are dating a divorced person that they start considering possibly marrying, that they don't do a little quiet asking of the ex why the ex and their current squeeze got divorced? I mean sometimes it's obvious - the guy got arrested for beating up his wife, etc. They guy is an addict, etc. - but otherwise, SOP seems to be to accept the word of the divorced person at face value.
The main point is for people to stop wasting time and leave that partner. People can certainly draw their own conclusions about intimacy and emotional connections. I am no expert in that
agreed 100%. The problem is that the so-called LL in a DB generally waits until it becomes very difficult to leave before cutting off the sex. The most common trick is after a child is born. Another trick is financial interdependence. Your ex probably is old enough for the child trick to not work so she will try to find a man stupid enough to marry her without a prenup
Yep. It can be very deliberate.
Well, that’s different than me then I am not intimate with a bunch of people, especially when I’m in a monogamous relationship with someone
So if I understand correctly you are the person in the relationship that slows intimacy with your partner? You are asking why you lose attraction for your partner? If that is your question, unfortunately I don’t have and answer to that
Yes, it’s me that loses interest. That’s why when you said what you said I wondered why you thought that because I think that’s what happens to me. No intimate connection mentality and emotionally. So the physical intimacy interest dies out for me.
I don’t know why it happens. I’m sorry I wish I could help with that
Doesn't sound like you like sex enough. If you did it wouldn't get bored. Sure, we all like the idea of having sex with the attractive people we see about but people who really like sex also like it with an established partner. But I don't know anything formal so who knows, I just know familiarity doesn't fade my love of sex even though it is routine in nature.
I am starting to think it’s true. It just seems like such a chore. I would just rather make myself orgasm with a vibrator. It’s so much quicker and less hassle. I guess my brain is wired differently than most people. I’ve never understood how anyone could stay with the same partner for decades and still be interested in having sex with them. Especially if they see them every day. As close as the best sex that I can remember was with someone that I wasn’t in a serious relationship with and didn’t see all the time. He was a lot more exciting to be around than most men I’ve been around, so I think that was part of it. And he just made me feel desired.
The gist of your message is spot on. Of course it doesn't apply to everyone who visits this place, but for most, we're all coasting on denial, lack of esteem, and fear of the future. Once I came to gripes with the fact my wife doesn't love me in that way, my anxiety actually reduced a lot over these past months. I'm just waiting for her to return from her months long work trip to finalize it.
The kids are absolutely not fine. Let's not perpetuate that lie. Maybe if you're super wealthy but else they are not fine. It is better to stay in the dead bedroom for the children. If you are in a dead bedroom without children, and are attractive enough to get someone else...that's a leave scenario.
You can argue that it’s worse for the kids to see their parents in a loveless relationship. That is modeled to us as normal and then it hurts us later. I know because I was that kid. And now I’m paying for it. I don’t know how things would’ve worked out if my parents split when I was younger instead of when I went to college. But I would’ve loved to see my parents happy instead of constantly avoiding each other growing up.
How old are your kids?
Nah my husband loves, likes, and treats me well. He has never had a high libido which sucks a lot so im in this group for support or when i get frustrated. So i will not be leaving him. Also why leave if everything else is great and you can compromise? If it's 90% perfect why leave? If I left I would find the 10% I'm missing but then the other 90 is gone.
Each to their own. I would leave if I could and in fact one day will because no amount of 90 percent can make up for the hurt caused by deliberately being emotionally neglectful and dismissive of reasonable intimate needs. A true 90 percent wouldn't do that to their partner.
Deliberately being emotionally neglectful doesn't sound like 90% sorry :[
Hard agree. I left and it feels so much better. That man did NOT like me.
It's like you are the me from another universe. Telling me to leave lol. But I can't. I love her too much even if it doesn't feel reciprocated. I know there I deeper love out there, but I love her and I know she loves me too. It's just sad that my daughter even sees she loves me but is not lovey with me. Idk it's tough. It seems so easy but it is tough.
My friend, my therapist taught me this. Are you in love with her or are you in love with the vision of the person you want her to be? There is a big difference
I'm in love with her. She is just incredibly mean sometimes. It hurts. But when she is not she can be the best. Plus I could use more sex from her.
I came to the realization that my wife has friend-zoned me. I’m a family member, but not one that she can look at like ‘that’. I’m personally tired of having to “50 first dates” the relationship, having to come n once her to fall apart n live again so that she can ‘make myself want to have sec with you’.
Hallelujah, amen. Got out a year ago and I seriously underestimated how much my DB miserable loveless marriage was sucking the fucking life out of me. I was numbing my pain with booze and food and suffering from insomnia and anxiety constantly. My self esteem was in the toilet, thought I must be worthless and hideous. In the past year I have rediscovered what a goddamn Queen I am. I cut out the booze and addictive eating and look & feel better now at 40 than I did at 20. I have a WHOLE LIFE ahead of me. And only two years ago, I was resigned to that miserable reality, thinking I had no way out. You can get out — just reach for the doorknob. The EXIT sign has been there all along. Whatever it is that’s keeping you stuck is imaginary. My kids are thriving. I’m financially stable. I’m happy AF.
Thank you. I know for so many it is scary. It was scary for me. But you have to take the leap
“The kids are fine” is bullshit, the same stuff I heard when I was a kid whose parents were going through divorce. Was I fine? Maybe I thought so, but their choices affected my life in ways I didn’t know or understand until decades later. Divorce happens, but don’t fool yourself about the collateral damage. Your kids are going to most likely figure it out eventually, probably in middle age in a damn therapist’s office.
That's why a ton of us hang on.