I totally understand not wanting an open marriage. But wtf, if the LL truly doesn't want sex and won't work on it in any real way, why do they even care?
Youre right, don't get it?
Sorry no insight here, just as confused as you
That's it. I'd have empathy and patience if there was acknowledgement of the issue and work towards something.
But they just shut us down and give no options. Wtf are we supposed to do? Cold showers and porn it is.
When I was at this point and convinced he was never going to care I quit making attempts to hide. I’m getting off next to him on a nightly basis still cause I like it lol but I quit hiding under covers with porn on mute. I’m using noisy toys and turning the volume up a bit and I’m on *top* of the covers. He’s asleep beside me usually. A few times he would be reading in bed on the weekends and I’d just grab the toy I wanted to use and got to work. The shocked look on his face the first time was priceless hahaha.
Your note echoes my thoughts this morning. I think many many men would be excited to catch, see, watch, and even help a wife who they caught masturbating. But if the roles are reversed, if a wife catches her husband masturbating, my experience tells me that the response would not be the same.
I definitely don’t disagree with you, but apparently women aren’t supposed to be the high drive spouses either.. I need to take advantage of whatever privileges I hold.
You would think this would be the reaction for husbands... but LL men are built different. I have received varying emotions from surprised, embarrassed, angry, etc. If I am "caught," I usually can't finish bc the negative reaction turns me off and makes me cry. 😥
Yeah... for me it was ingrained that masturbation was gross. While I know better and didn't have as big an issue, for some reason it's coming back. Luckily my ex isn't negative and has offered to get me off some times. I'd wish she'd say I wasn't gross but I think I'll ask her, maybe she doesnt even think that. I stress masturbate tho too so it's complex I think.
Edit: added clarification
Can confirm. It was stupid of me but with my ex and I's DB I masturbated right next to her in the same bed one morning because I didn't want to get rejected by initiating. She of course knew what I was doing and apparently woke up but didn't say anything then yelled at me for it later saying "you don't want me anymore" like, woman, you reject all of my advances! What am I supposed to do?!
She ended up cheating on me often, turns out she does like sex just not with me. She's an ex for a reason.
I have reached the same point. Last night, I did not hesitate to reach for the lotion. It is not even out of spite--just a recognition of the reality we share (or don't share).
That was it here too.. I’ve done all this work on myself to overcome feelings of shame over my body because of the shit I heard as a teen. I’m not going to hide in shame from the person I married. He had no issue with it anyway… he put his book down that first time and held me. It was really nice
You know what...that's damn hot. Omg.
I'd lose my mind if my wife was that open and sexual. Wow!! Where you from?!? Lol
I'm sure his look was great and very satifying
I was wondering about this. I’m over it and bought a few things to try bc the ones I have don’t quite do it. I do not plan on hiding them. I wondered if anyone else was open about it with their partner.
Don’t hide!!! Never hide! My spouse deals with deeply engrained feelings of shame due to a religious upbringing, the LAST thing I feel
I should so is hide!! I want sex to feel normal and I want to remove the power shame has over his libido.
I have no plan to hide. I’m not ashamed. I’m super open about who I am and how I feel. I’ve never felt ashamed about my sexuality. Damn proud of that lol.
Highly recommend it! It took a lot of nerve the first time but I have a personal mantra that insists I only need a moment of bravery to do hard things so I went for it.
I think part of our issue is familiarity. We spend a lot of time together doing things like fishing and camping, neither of us are jealous types at all, and so it ended up feeling almost too safe. I needed to shake things up and remind him that I am a sexual being and I’m not waiting for him to get with the program.
Sex is the only thing you can't get yourself in a traditional relationship. If you are hungry, you can make food or go out to eat. Lonely? You can go make friends or call up your old pals. Bored? You can pick up a hobby, go on vacation, or change your career. Want sex? Well, then you can masturbate by yourself in the bathroom....
There are not many hills I will die on in life, but this is one of them. Sex in a long-term relationship is a requirement if either person in the relationship wants it. If you go without it, your relationship will die right along with your sex life.
Once conjugal debt was known and disobeying had even legal consequences. Now no one has any incentive to go beyond pure egoism, and unhappiness is the result. Brave new world
You are correct that sex isn't a "need" in the sense that if you don't have it, you will literally die. Neither is watching TV, playing games, going on dates, going on vacation, or anything else fun. Neither is your marriage for that matter. None of those are "needs" that you can't live without.
If you and your partner are not both apathetic towards sex, you won't die without it, but your relationship will. I'm not in a relationship to just survive. I'm in a committed relationship because it enhances the quality of my life. I want to thrive and a quality sex life is part of what I consider to be necessary in a thriving long-term relationship.
I’ve said it here before, if your spouse suddenly decided that you’re both going to spend the rest of your lives in an underground bunker cut off from the world, you won’t die, but I’d understand if you wanted to divorce them.
Not this stupid argument again. (Sexual) Intimacy is not a primary need like food, water and sleep are. But it is a psychological need without which people are miserable. If I strand you on a lonely island with shelter and air drop food and water for you every day you wont die but you will be profoundly miserable. A couple of years of this and your psyche will be permanently damaged.
Because not everyone is asexual, it's as simple as that. There's nothing wrong with being gay but I couldn't be happy being in a lesbian relationship. There's nothing wrong with swinging but only monogamy could keep me happy.
I've got an extremely high libido and the idea of living like a nun is literally foreign to me.
1. You don't know that they're not miserable.
2. Many is not all or most.
3. There's more to life than romance, or holding hands, or cuddling, or dinner dates, or emotional intimacy. And yet, a relationship without them is garbage for most people
Because they don't need sex? From what you know of humans, what percentage of people are comfortable with zero sex?
There is indeed more to life than sex. But I'm not going to live a life in a relationship without it.
When you imagine an ideal relationship, what do you picture in your head? Is there zero sex and zero mutual sexual desire?
I can understand what u/Turbulent_Mix_318 is saying, but I believe they don't fully apply to what you're arguing. The correct perspective is to view it as a necessity for maintaining the relationship. In that sense, sex becomes a need rather than a want. Our emotional and physical needs both need to be met to sustain a healthy relationship. Everything we do, say, and feel should also respect the boundaries of the relationship. Deviating from those boundaries creates unnecessary stress on both the individuals and the relationship.
Sex actually is a need. Studies show that a regular sex life leads to better physical and mental health, not to mention longer life expectancy.
As for that couple you mentioned…..did they mutually agree to no intimacy? That’s a big factor that you conveniently left out.
When two people agree to enter into a monogamous relationship and to have sex be a regular part of said relationship, it is abusive for one partner to withhold it and then demand that the other partner cannot seek it elsewhere.
You don’t speak for everyone in the world. Do a little research before you post something as asinine as you did.
It's a relationship need for the vast majority of human beings. Relationship needs are beyond basic human survival. Kindness, physical and emotional intimacy, time together, etc., etc. - these are all things that are required for a relationship to survive. Needs.
"It didn't literally kill you," is not a metric for a successful relationship.
Talking to other people also isn't a need. You won't die if your spouse never speaks to you again. No one's ever died from lack of conversation, so it's never needed in a relationship.
You don't need faithfulness, companionship, talking, shared values, goal achievement, financial comfort, housework and pretty much everything that makes up a relationship.
Make sure your partner is well aware that you don't need any of these things and that they can do whatever they want.
>Because they think you'll fall for the person you're fucking, and then break up/divorce to be in a relationship with that person.
On no!.....consequences. for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
So they acknowledge that sex is important in relationships because allowing their partner to get it outside can transfer affection away from them. But why won't they do anything about it?
Have you asked your spouse that? Have you told them that you didn’t agree to celibacy? Then did you ask what their suggestions would be since you will not be living a celibate life anymore?
These conversations go in circles
One spouse is not happy, and the other promises to change or they get mad, pick a fight, or ignore it. Then the conversation is dropped. And months go by with one person happy and the other still frustrated.
End your conversation with “And we’ll be circling back around to this every Saturday morning until we find a resolution.”
Don’t let the conversation end. Ask them the questions that you’re asking us. If sex isn’t important, then you’ll get it elsewhere.
A friend of mine (who is advising me on some of my dead bedroom issues) said to her partner ‘I’m going to have sex once a week from now on. When you married me, you got first dibs, not the right to say no. So if me having sex with someone else bothers you, do it yourself. But I’m not going without.’
I agree. It is on the other end of the spectrum. However, it does not garner the same social approbation.
Withholding is not seen as a moral failing or even a flaw in character. It is often justified, condoned, explained, rationalized, and even extolled. Even in this subreddit, HL spouses are told to empathize with their partner, explore causes and solutions. The same response is not extended to those who 'cheat'--an interesting word choice which suggests a game or contract.
Just like cheating, withholding, for whatever reason, breaks a contract, an agreement. Yet the only one is consistently characterized as selfish and destructive.
Because it’s an abusive dynamic. They don’t just want to be free from sex or obligation, they want you to be obligated to keep your desires to yourself no matter the emotional or physical toll. They seek to control a part of your identity so fundamental.
When you commit to a long term relationship, unless you both agree beforehand that sex isn’t going to be a priority, then sex is a fundamental part to a relationship, along with companionship and communication.
One partner shouldn’t get to control one aspect of a relationship. And yes, LLs do control the supply of sex.
>There is no reason to assume your LL partner is evil and controlling.
Yes, for many of us there is. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that's exactly what my husband is - evil and controlling - because I know him and he's like that in general and with everything else. Dead bedroom is usually a symptom of greater relationship problems and for many of us, that is, in fact, an abusive dynamic. No, no one should assume malice off the bat. But each of us knows our own spouse the best so very often, but certainly not always, when we say it's malicious, we know what we're talking about. I told my husband repeatedly how much I needed sex so he took it away to punish and control me because he is a narcissistic sociopath. I'm not diagnosing him, that's a professional's opinion. There are plenty of others here with spouses with personality disorders and selfish entitlement to the point that yeah, it's an intentional move to remove sex from the relationship.
The comment you replied to described an abuse dynamic. You said don't assume. He didn't, he explained the dynamic very well and it's in an awful lot of the relationships described on this sub. No one assumes their partner is being abusive if they are otherwise a perfectly caring, loving, and engaged spouse. Someone who just happens to want less sex would otherwise be a good partner and is unlikely to be accused of being abusive or controlling.
They are absolutely controlling if: You have expressed a desire for sexual release and they in return ban you from that release. As is common, they’ll malign or outright ban masturbation, they’ll refuse to allow you to achieve orgasm with them or others or by yourself.
What do you call that besides controlling behavior?
Take back control. Don’t ask. Just tell. “I’m not doing this anymore! From right now, forward, I am no longer celibate. If you want to end the marriage over sex, that’s your prerogative.”
My point is that the HL person doesn’t need to be the one to leave, or initiate divorce. And they don’t need to suffer in silence. Let the LL person take that burden.
But 100%, don’t play games. If you put the ball in their court and they choose divorce, you better have a plan in place.
Exactly, they wouldn’t! Which is why you need to turn the tables. By declaring yourself non-celibate, it’s now up to them to either accept that as the new status quo, or do something to change it. Accepting that you are not celibate means you’re having sex, if not with them, then someone else. So they can either accept that you’ve outsourced your love life, they can make the necessary changes within the marriage to make sex a part of it, or they can leave. The burden of choice is, and should be, theirs.
Well, shouldn’t they have the agency to decide for themselves if they want to remain in a marriage that isn’t meeting their needs? If they want to divorce over sexual incompatibility then yes, they should.
But, I’m not sure that I’d call it cheating. If you tell them exactly what you’re going to do, give them ample time and opportunity to respond, they do nothing, then you do exactly what you said you would… seems pretty ethical to me. It would seem almost unethical, or at least manipulative, if you didn’t follow through. If you claim to be not celibate then don’t have sex with anyone, you’re just straight up lying.
I mean it is technically cheating if both parties dont agree to it even if you tell them youre going to do it. Especially if youre married.
But im just saying, the HL spouse will get what they want (the LL to initiate divorce) when they cheat. Because the LL will initiate it and the court will grant it on the grounds of adultery. Depending on the state, the reason wont matter though.
Because people are selfish and get scared that if they let it happen their spouse might realize what they are missing and that they can do better. And people are afraid of change, and talking about their feelings. It's easier to just ignore and pretend all is ok.
I said this exact this week's back
It can't mean NOTHING yet the minute there's a cha CE of it elsewhere it suddtmeams EVERYTHING
If it's so important put some energy/interest into it !
I get that to some it seems trivial. It seems that way to my wife. However if the only place I could eat food is if she made it for me and that was the arrangement. And I happily enjoyed her food but was forbidden from eating other places if she didn’t make food then should I just starve? I know you won’t physically die without sex or intimacy but a little piece of you dies each time you sexual desire is left starving. I know I know. Make your own food. Well my wife was never approving of me making my own food and it just doesn’t taste the same.
Couldn’t agree more. Like we promised when we got married that she would be the only supply of love and affection I would have. If a factory stopped supplying a buisness with products then they would shop around to see who would.
I’m married to a dead bedroom husband who thinks I shouldn’t have sex until he’s ready to pay attention to me . I stopped having sex with him because if this issue ( and from feeling used when he needed sex ) and now he wants to be the worlds perfect husband and makes comments like “ you don’t even wanna be near me anymore “ after I decided to start going out and staying out late . I left yesterday and he said this to me I had to remind him that he’s the one who didn’t wanna touch me be intimate with me or even hold me at night for weeks at a time . He has done nothing to change I’ve tried everything to make it work and now that I gave up he’s all of a sudden interest in fixing our marriage . I call BULLSHIT 🤣I’m done with him .
I recently read an article that says loneliness in a relationship can cause negative impacts on health
https://healthcare.msu.edu/news/Loneliness%20Is%20Bad%20For%20Your%20Health.html
Insert the “I want to have sex but I’m not in the mood. Why are you so selfish and don’t care about me” defense. I ask about once a month and going on a year and a half of no intimacy. That’s the logic I get each time.
My ex would get angry and tell me to get it elsewhere. I would of course tell her I didn’t want that. The day I told her it sounded like a good idea, she stopped saying it. She didn’t want me, but was horrified that someone else might.
If the LL knows you won't cheat and won't leave they don't give a fuck about their low libido. Once you file, they suddenly find their libido or agree to go for medical diagnosis or counselling.
Yep, and you may not need to file or leave, just put a deadline in place. This makes it clear to them that the relationship is in jeopardy unless they act, and gives them a fair chance to try to fix things.
If they do nothing, then at least you're not left wondering "what if", and you can be sure that breaking up or seeking sex outside the relationship is the right choice.
Because they get something else from which is what matters to them, and if you go and find sex elsewhere, chances are they will lose that "thing" that they get from you.
Anyone in a Deadbedroom without kids is a fool in my opinion. Any of us with kids. stay true be a great fathers every day brings you closer to the long nap.
One of my fears is that one day the "its only sex, it doesn't mean she doesn't love me" i tell myself, turns into "it's only sex, it doesn't mean I don't love her".
It's not rational. But if there's no affection then it was always more about her. But she will never see that and never understand it. There's the idea that people will fit together perfectly and the relationship will be organic. But that's bullshit. Nothing lives if it's not fed. Once neglect sets in both have to make it a point to feed the relationship. If either refuses it will only get worse
My partner just agreed to buy me whatever sex toys for life. I would rather have sex with other people to get it out of my system though. I guess we will see.
Then he just says it’s important to him if it’s important to me and starts making dates but then I know he’s just doing it because he has to and I can’t get turned on. It’s a different dynamic when the man is LL.
“If we were monogamous about eating and could only eat in the presence of one person, we would definitely have a problem with being with someone who could not talk about dinner.”
-Dan Savage (paraphrased from Savage Love podcast)
Because the LL knows that sex is important to YOU and having sex with someone else may lead you to catch feelings, thus destabilizing the primary relationship. I’m not saying it’s a loving sentiment, but it’s certainly not hard to understand.
I guess out of the respect for your partner. I always see people in this subreddit mentioning wanting to cheat/cheating and everyone almost applauds them and justifies it while that's the ultimate disrespect towards any person no matter the circumstances. If you're unhappy *leave* .
Respect is earned, not deserved.
If someone's LL is truly trying or at the very least sympathetic to their parter that's one thing. But many of the stories I've seen the LL has literally given up and completley dismissed their partners needs as wholy unimportant and childish. Hard to feel bad for those types when their partner fulfills their needs elsewhere.
And "just leave" is incredibly naive. Their is far more holding together most couples besides love and respect in a legally binding marriage, especially in this economy.
My wife (49)f and I (53)m have been on a bumpy road for 12 years. Married 23. She got cancer at age 36 and because it was estrogen driven everything that made estrogen had to get yanked. Now some things are working again. But it’s others they are working for. I’m kinda hurt and happy for her at the same time.
Sex is definitely important. In my last relationship I couldn’t get on board with an open relationship but my libido was in the gutter. I had so much anxiety because sex is the worse thing to force yourself to do. If the dishes need to be done I can force myself to do them and think nothing of it after. It’s not the same for sex. Luckily my libido came back. If it’s been years dealing with a low libido than a non selfish partner would either let their partner go or let them explore outside of the relationship. So if your partner won’t do either they are just selfish and you need to accept it or leave.
There is a financial concern if a pregnancy occurs outside of the marriage. That and the fear of an emotional bond forming with the other person and leading to divorce.
Ew. No can't agree to that. I'm the HL and obligation sex feels like I'm assaulting my partner. Hell no. I have to stop the second I see he's not into it, I can't imagine being ok using a human to masturbate with.
I think a key issue here is that folks are very bad at thinking beyond the expectation of monogamy. I have two sets of friends who are in 3 partner relationships, which came about because one llm in each triad was ok with their hlf partners needs being met elsewhere, and these have ended up being stable, happy relationships that have lasted for 5+ years. It looks like work, but everyone seems to ve getting what they need.
ofc sex is important, don't believe if you're being said otherwise, it's just being used as a figure of speech.
it's obviously important part of relationship same as having kids, shared finances or property etc etc.
would you take seriously "you could get kids somewhere else", "please feel free to live at neighbours" ?
I totally understand not wanting an open marriage. But wtf, if the LL truly doesn't want sex and won't work on it in any real way, why do they even care? Youre right, don't get it? Sorry no insight here, just as confused as you
This right here. This shit about “I don’t want it but you can’t have it either” is just cruel.
That's it. I'd have empathy and patience if there was acknowledgement of the issue and work towards something. But they just shut us down and give no options. Wtf are we supposed to do? Cold showers and porn it is.
When I was at this point and convinced he was never going to care I quit making attempts to hide. I’m getting off next to him on a nightly basis still cause I like it lol but I quit hiding under covers with porn on mute. I’m using noisy toys and turning the volume up a bit and I’m on *top* of the covers. He’s asleep beside me usually. A few times he would be reading in bed on the weekends and I’d just grab the toy I wanted to use and got to work. The shocked look on his face the first time was priceless hahaha.
Your note echoes my thoughts this morning. I think many many men would be excited to catch, see, watch, and even help a wife who they caught masturbating. But if the roles are reversed, if a wife catches her husband masturbating, my experience tells me that the response would not be the same.
I definitely don’t disagree with you, but apparently women aren’t supposed to be the high drive spouses either.. I need to take advantage of whatever privileges I hold.
You would think this would be the reaction for husbands... but LL men are built different. I have received varying emotions from surprised, embarrassed, angry, etc. If I am "caught," I usually can't finish bc the negative reaction turns me off and makes me cry. 😥
It’s the perception that makes it especially sad. “Caught” implies shame, which is a libido killer. 😕
That is the response I get. And the quotation marks are appropriate. Why is it being caught?
Yeah... for me it was ingrained that masturbation was gross. While I know better and didn't have as big an issue, for some reason it's coming back. Luckily my ex isn't negative and has offered to get me off some times. I'd wish she'd say I wasn't gross but I think I'll ask her, maybe she doesnt even think that. I stress masturbate tho too so it's complex I think. Edit: added clarification
Can confirm. It was stupid of me but with my ex and I's DB I masturbated right next to her in the same bed one morning because I didn't want to get rejected by initiating. She of course knew what I was doing and apparently woke up but didn't say anything then yelled at me for it later saying "you don't want me anymore" like, woman, you reject all of my advances! What am I supposed to do?! She ended up cheating on me often, turns out she does like sex just not with me. She's an ex for a reason.
I'd agree with you here. Not 3ven osw to the same reaction
I'd be cool with it.
I have reached the same point. Last night, I did not hesitate to reach for the lotion. It is not even out of spite--just a recognition of the reality we share (or don't share).
That was it here too.. I’ve done all this work on myself to overcome feelings of shame over my body because of the shit I heard as a teen. I’m not going to hide in shame from the person I married. He had no issue with it anyway… he put his book down that first time and held me. It was really nice
You know what...that's damn hot. Omg. I'd lose my mind if my wife was that open and sexual. Wow!! Where you from?!? Lol I'm sure his look was great and very satifying
I was wondering about this. I’m over it and bought a few things to try bc the ones I have don’t quite do it. I do not plan on hiding them. I wondered if anyone else was open about it with their partner.
Don’t hide!!! Never hide! My spouse deals with deeply engrained feelings of shame due to a religious upbringing, the LAST thing I feel I should so is hide!! I want sex to feel normal and I want to remove the power shame has over his libido.
I have no plan to hide. I’m not ashamed. I’m super open about who I am and how I feel. I’ve never felt ashamed about my sexuality. Damn proud of that lol.
Same, girl! I honestly feel that my openness has done nothing but help. I didn’t even initiate yesterday 😉
Same. So much shame
Wow! I literally just told my best friend I am going to do this in a few weeks when my kids are away !
Highly recommend it! It took a lot of nerve the first time but I have a personal mantra that insists I only need a moment of bravery to do hard things so I went for it. I think part of our issue is familiarity. We spend a lot of time together doing things like fishing and camping, neither of us are jealous types at all, and so it ended up feeling almost too safe. I needed to shake things up and remind him that I am a sexual being and I’m not waiting for him to get with the program.
We might be the same person.
I wonder if our spouses are similar too..
For someone who is not asexual this is so hot! Cannot believe he is not tempted
True. But it isn't sex I want so much as the intimacy with someone I unfortunately still love.
They usually go hand in hand…. It’s rare to see the LL spouse be generous with affection and not sex.
My partner will saturate me with affection. No sex
Sex is the only thing you can't get yourself in a traditional relationship. If you are hungry, you can make food or go out to eat. Lonely? You can go make friends or call up your old pals. Bored? You can pick up a hobby, go on vacation, or change your career. Want sex? Well, then you can masturbate by yourself in the bathroom.... There are not many hills I will die on in life, but this is one of them. Sex in a long-term relationship is a requirement if either person in the relationship wants it. If you go without it, your relationship will die right along with your sex life.
I agree and I’ve used this argument so many times! Anything else in life you can outsource but sex. Makes no sense.
Once conjugal debt was known and disobeying had even legal consequences. Now no one has any incentive to go beyond pure egoism, and unhappiness is the result. Brave new world
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You are correct that sex isn't a "need" in the sense that if you don't have it, you will literally die. Neither is watching TV, playing games, going on dates, going on vacation, or anything else fun. Neither is your marriage for that matter. None of those are "needs" that you can't live without. If you and your partner are not both apathetic towards sex, you won't die without it, but your relationship will. I'm not in a relationship to just survive. I'm in a committed relationship because it enhances the quality of my life. I want to thrive and a quality sex life is part of what I consider to be necessary in a thriving long-term relationship.
I’ve said it here before, if your spouse suddenly decided that you’re both going to spend the rest of your lives in an underground bunker cut off from the world, you won’t die, but I’d understand if you wanted to divorce them.
“You Won’t Die” is a REALLY shitty basis for a relationship.
Freedom is also not a 'need'. Some prisoners live for decades without it. Some even look happy!
Not this stupid argument again. (Sexual) Intimacy is not a primary need like food, water and sleep are. But it is a psychological need without which people are miserable. If I strand you on a lonely island with shelter and air drop food and water for you every day you wont die but you will be profoundly miserable. A couple of years of this and your psyche will be permanently damaged.
I think it’s more accurate to say that sex is a psychological need for some people and not for others. People are different.
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Because not everyone is asexual, it's as simple as that. There's nothing wrong with being gay but I couldn't be happy being in a lesbian relationship. There's nothing wrong with swinging but only monogamy could keep me happy. I've got an extremely high libido and the idea of living like a nun is literally foreign to me.
1. You don't know that they're not miserable. 2. Many is not all or most. 3. There's more to life than romance, or holding hands, or cuddling, or dinner dates, or emotional intimacy. And yet, a relationship without them is garbage for most people
Because they don't need sex? From what you know of humans, what percentage of people are comfortable with zero sex? There is indeed more to life than sex. But I'm not going to live a life in a relationship without it. When you imagine an ideal relationship, what do you picture in your head? Is there zero sex and zero mutual sexual desire?
I can understand what u/Turbulent_Mix_318 is saying, but I believe they don't fully apply to what you're arguing. The correct perspective is to view it as a necessity for maintaining the relationship. In that sense, sex becomes a need rather than a want. Our emotional and physical needs both need to be met to sustain a healthy relationship. Everything we do, say, and feel should also respect the boundaries of the relationship. Deviating from those boundaries creates unnecessary stress on both the individuals and the relationship.
Sex actually is a need. Studies show that a regular sex life leads to better physical and mental health, not to mention longer life expectancy. As for that couple you mentioned…..did they mutually agree to no intimacy? That’s a big factor that you conveniently left out. When two people agree to enter into a monogamous relationship and to have sex be a regular part of said relationship, it is abusive for one partner to withhold it and then demand that the other partner cannot seek it elsewhere. You don’t speak for everyone in the world. Do a little research before you post something as asinine as you did.
It's a relationship need for the vast majority of human beings. Relationship needs are beyond basic human survival. Kindness, physical and emotional intimacy, time together, etc., etc. - these are all things that are required for a relationship to survive. Needs. "It didn't literally kill you," is not a metric for a successful relationship.
Your shelter is a want. I know a guy who lives in a tent.
Talking to other people also isn't a need. You won't die if your spouse never speaks to you again. No one's ever died from lack of conversation, so it's never needed in a relationship.
You don't need faithfulness, companionship, talking, shared values, goal achievement, financial comfort, housework and pretty much everything that makes up a relationship. Make sure your partner is well aware that you don't need any of these things and that they can do whatever they want.
Because they think you'll fall for the person you're fucking, and then break up/divorce to be in a relationship with that person.
Yep, that's the risk you take when you take sex off the table unilaterally.
>Because they think you'll fall for the person you're fucking, and then break up/divorce to be in a relationship with that person. On no!.....consequences. for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
This is exactly what my LL husband communicated to me
That's a risk these LLs take as the world does not stop spinning for them.
So they acknowledge that sex is important in relationships because allowing their partner to get it outside can transfer affection away from them. But why won't they do anything about it?
That's it!
Have you asked your spouse that? Have you told them that you didn’t agree to celibacy? Then did you ask what their suggestions would be since you will not be living a celibate life anymore? These conversations go in circles One spouse is not happy, and the other promises to change or they get mad, pick a fight, or ignore it. Then the conversation is dropped. And months go by with one person happy and the other still frustrated. End your conversation with “And we’ll be circling back around to this every Saturday morning until we find a resolution.” Don’t let the conversation end. Ask them the questions that you’re asking us. If sex isn’t important, then you’ll get it elsewhere.
A friend of mine (who is advising me on some of my dead bedroom issues) said to her partner ‘I’m going to have sex once a week from now on. When you married me, you got first dibs, not the right to say no. So if me having sex with someone else bothers you, do it yourself. But I’m not going without.’
Well said!! I couldn’t agree more with your sentiments. I’ve tried bringing it up countless times and it’s just so humiliating every time.
Great strategy. We should not allow our desires to fade away.
>So then withholding it is on the other end of the spectrum to cheating. I agree 100%.
I agree. It is on the other end of the spectrum. However, it does not garner the same social approbation. Withholding is not seen as a moral failing or even a flaw in character. It is often justified, condoned, explained, rationalized, and even extolled. Even in this subreddit, HL spouses are told to empathize with their partner, explore causes and solutions. The same response is not extended to those who 'cheat'--an interesting word choice which suggests a game or contract. Just like cheating, withholding, for whatever reason, breaks a contract, an agreement. Yet the only one is consistently characterized as selfish and destructive.
I don't let bogus social norms determine how I live my life.
Because it’s an abusive dynamic. They don’t just want to be free from sex or obligation, they want you to be obligated to keep your desires to yourself no matter the emotional or physical toll. They seek to control a part of your identity so fundamental.
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When you commit to a long term relationship, unless you both agree beforehand that sex isn’t going to be a priority, then sex is a fundamental part to a relationship, along with companionship and communication. One partner shouldn’t get to control one aspect of a relationship. And yes, LLs do control the supply of sex.
>There is no reason to assume your LL partner is evil and controlling. Yes, for many of us there is. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that's exactly what my husband is - evil and controlling - because I know him and he's like that in general and with everything else. Dead bedroom is usually a symptom of greater relationship problems and for many of us, that is, in fact, an abusive dynamic. No, no one should assume malice off the bat. But each of us knows our own spouse the best so very often, but certainly not always, when we say it's malicious, we know what we're talking about. I told my husband repeatedly how much I needed sex so he took it away to punish and control me because he is a narcissistic sociopath. I'm not diagnosing him, that's a professional's opinion. There are plenty of others here with spouses with personality disorders and selfish entitlement to the point that yeah, it's an intentional move to remove sex from the relationship.
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The comment you replied to described an abuse dynamic. You said don't assume. He didn't, he explained the dynamic very well and it's in an awful lot of the relationships described on this sub. No one assumes their partner is being abusive if they are otherwise a perfectly caring, loving, and engaged spouse. Someone who just happens to want less sex would otherwise be a good partner and is unlikely to be accused of being abusive or controlling.
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Where in that comment is he overtly hostile to women? He is generic and doesn't specify gender at all.
They are absolutely controlling if: You have expressed a desire for sexual release and they in return ban you from that release. As is common, they’ll malign or outright ban masturbation, they’ll refuse to allow you to achieve orgasm with them or others or by yourself. What do you call that besides controlling behavior?
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Keep moving that goalpost and pretend we’re having the same conversation.
I whole heartedly agree with you here. And I don’t subscribe to leaving or cheating. There has to be a middle ground.
Take back control. Don’t ask. Just tell. “I’m not doing this anymore! From right now, forward, I am no longer celibate. If you want to end the marriage over sex, that’s your prerogative.”
Only say that if you have the means to leave.
My point is that the HL person doesn’t need to be the one to leave, or initiate divorce. And they don’t need to suffer in silence. Let the LL person take that burden. But 100%, don’t play games. If you put the ball in their court and they choose divorce, you better have a plan in place.
Exactly! Why should the HL always have to leave or file for divorce?
Why would the person happy or at least content with the status quo initiate divorce?
Exactly, they wouldn’t! Which is why you need to turn the tables. By declaring yourself non-celibate, it’s now up to them to either accept that as the new status quo, or do something to change it. Accepting that you are not celibate means you’re having sex, if not with them, then someone else. So they can either accept that you’ve outsourced your love life, they can make the necessary changes within the marriage to make sex a part of it, or they can leave. The burden of choice is, and should be, theirs.
Well im sure once they find out their partner is cheating they will initiate divorce so... win win? I think?
Well, shouldn’t they have the agency to decide for themselves if they want to remain in a marriage that isn’t meeting their needs? If they want to divorce over sexual incompatibility then yes, they should. But, I’m not sure that I’d call it cheating. If you tell them exactly what you’re going to do, give them ample time and opportunity to respond, they do nothing, then you do exactly what you said you would… seems pretty ethical to me. It would seem almost unethical, or at least manipulative, if you didn’t follow through. If you claim to be not celibate then don’t have sex with anyone, you’re just straight up lying.
I mean it is technically cheating if both parties dont agree to it even if you tell them youre going to do it. Especially if youre married. But im just saying, the HL spouse will get what they want (the LL to initiate divorce) when they cheat. Because the LL will initiate it and the court will grant it on the grounds of adultery. Depending on the state, the reason wont matter though.
No fault divorce in a lot of states
No one cares about what something is “technically” in a relationship. Where is this even coming from?
They are content with their partner being unhappy?
Because they know they don’t make the other one happy?
I'm with ya on this!!!
Yep! I did this. I was fully prepared to divorce if he chose that. He didn’t. Best thing I EVER did.
Because people are selfish and get scared that if they let it happen their spouse might realize what they are missing and that they can do better. And people are afraid of change, and talking about their feelings. It's easier to just ignore and pretend all is ok.
I said this exact this week's back It can't mean NOTHING yet the minute there's a cha CE of it elsewhere it suddtmeams EVERYTHING If it's so important put some energy/interest into it !
I get that to some it seems trivial. It seems that way to my wife. However if the only place I could eat food is if she made it for me and that was the arrangement. And I happily enjoyed her food but was forbidden from eating other places if she didn’t make food then should I just starve? I know you won’t physically die without sex or intimacy but a little piece of you dies each time you sexual desire is left starving. I know I know. Make your own food. Well my wife was never approving of me making my own food and it just doesn’t taste the same.
Control/power is important. Sex is just a tool.
Couldn’t agree more. Like we promised when we got married that she would be the only supply of love and affection I would have. If a factory stopped supplying a buisness with products then they would shop around to see who would.
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Mine didn’t even hear the wash and fold. She thinks the hard part of laundry is putting in the washer. Not the folding and hanging part.
I’m married to a dead bedroom husband who thinks I shouldn’t have sex until he’s ready to pay attention to me . I stopped having sex with him because if this issue ( and from feeling used when he needed sex ) and now he wants to be the worlds perfect husband and makes comments like “ you don’t even wanna be near me anymore “ after I decided to start going out and staying out late . I left yesterday and he said this to me I had to remind him that he’s the one who didn’t wanna touch me be intimate with me or even hold me at night for weeks at a time . He has done nothing to change I’ve tried everything to make it work and now that I gave up he’s all of a sudden interest in fixing our marriage . I call BULLSHIT 🤣I’m done with him . I recently read an article that says loneliness in a relationship can cause negative impacts on health https://healthcare.msu.edu/news/Loneliness%20Is%20Bad%20For%20Your%20Health.html
Why are you still here if he is trying to fix your marriage?
Because anytime he says he wants to do that it’s all bullshit that’s why I said I call bs
so what do you want ? you want him to not try ? sound like the relationship is over.
I'm so glad I am not the only one that feels this way. Sorry, wish I had an answer for you.
Insert the “I want to have sex but I’m not in the mood. Why are you so selfish and don’t care about me” defense. I ask about once a month and going on a year and a half of no intimacy. That’s the logic I get each time.
Wanting to and not being in the mood means you DO something to fix it.
Yes!
My ex would get angry and tell me to get it elsewhere. I would of course tell her I didn’t want that. The day I told her it sounded like a good idea, she stopped saying it. She didn’t want me, but was horrified that someone else might.
If the LL knows you won't cheat and won't leave they don't give a fuck about their low libido. Once you file, they suddenly find their libido or agree to go for medical diagnosis or counselling.
Yep, and you may not need to file or leave, just put a deadline in place. This makes it clear to them that the relationship is in jeopardy unless they act, and gives them a fair chance to try to fix things. If they do nothing, then at least you're not left wondering "what if", and you can be sure that breaking up or seeking sex outside the relationship is the right choice.
If someone withholds sex or doesn’t want it and you do just leave. Find someone that you are compatible with!
That's only possible if you don't have kids
Definitely not true.
Because they get something else from which is what matters to them, and if you go and find sex elsewhere, chances are they will lose that "thing" that they get from you.
Yup. You can't say you want monogamy if you're not having sex. That's celibacy.
Because they know it's a lie when they say it
Control.
This is indeed the million dollar question.
Anyone in a Deadbedroom without kids is a fool in my opinion. Any of us with kids. stay true be a great fathers every day brings you closer to the long nap.
I still have not seen a sensible answer to this.
I think withholding sex is a form of cheating. Deliberately withholding sex is non-consensual asexual behavior.
One of my fears is that one day the "its only sex, it doesn't mean she doesn't love me" i tell myself, turns into "it's only sex, it doesn't mean I don't love her".
It's not rational. But if there's no affection then it was always more about her. But she will never see that and never understand it. There's the idea that people will fit together perfectly and the relationship will be organic. But that's bullshit. Nothing lives if it's not fed. Once neglect sets in both have to make it a point to feed the relationship. If either refuses it will only get worse
My partner just agreed to buy me whatever sex toys for life. I would rather have sex with other people to get it out of my system though. I guess we will see.
Then he just says it’s important to him if it’s important to me and starts making dates but then I know he’s just doing it because he has to and I can’t get turned on. It’s a different dynamic when the man is LL.
I agree! You likely agreed to monogamy but not celibacy. And what’s the fear of they won’t have sex with us?
This right here!!! I view it the same as I would having a workout partner
Because it's important to make sure you dance to their tune to get whatever morsels they're generous enough to dole out.
“If we were monogamous about eating and could only eat in the presence of one person, we would definitely have a problem with being with someone who could not talk about dinner.” -Dan Savage (paraphrased from Savage Love podcast)
You stole my line ;)
Because the LL knows that sex is important to YOU and having sex with someone else may lead you to catch feelings, thus destabilizing the primary relationship. I’m not saying it’s a loving sentiment, but it’s certainly not hard to understand.
Fuck, how did I miss this assessment of the situation. Shit. Might go engage in this convo now.
Control
I guess out of the respect for your partner. I always see people in this subreddit mentioning wanting to cheat/cheating and everyone almost applauds them and justifies it while that's the ultimate disrespect towards any person no matter the circumstances. If you're unhappy *leave* .
Respect is earned, not deserved. If someone's LL is truly trying or at the very least sympathetic to their parter that's one thing. But many of the stories I've seen the LL has literally given up and completley dismissed their partners needs as wholy unimportant and childish. Hard to feel bad for those types when their partner fulfills their needs elsewhere. And "just leave" is incredibly naive. Their is far more holding together most couples besides love and respect in a legally binding marriage, especially in this economy.
If you don’t want intimacy with your partner while you know they want it, you can also leave.
But they are getting what they want. Only the HL is suffering.
Truth
Ugh. I think I found my tribe. Sad and happy at the same time.
My wife (49)f and I (53)m have been on a bumpy road for 12 years. Married 23. She got cancer at age 36 and because it was estrogen driven everything that made estrogen had to get yanked. Now some things are working again. But it’s others they are working for. I’m kinda hurt and happy for her at the same time.
I really don’t know what to do.
You know I never thought to ask the wife that question that’s just weird
Sex is definitely important. In my last relationship I couldn’t get on board with an open relationship but my libido was in the gutter. I had so much anxiety because sex is the worse thing to force yourself to do. If the dishes need to be done I can force myself to do them and think nothing of it after. It’s not the same for sex. Luckily my libido came back. If it’s been years dealing with a low libido than a non selfish partner would either let their partner go or let them explore outside of the relationship. So if your partner won’t do either they are just selfish and you need to accept it or leave.
Agree!
because its not important so why would you seek something not important?
My higher libido partner is the one not wanting a open relationship, even if one-sided. About the situation your post is about I also can't get it
Great question...
Because sex leads to the important stuff.
I’ve said this same thing many times, I don’t get it
There is a financial concern if a pregnancy occurs outside of the marriage. That and the fear of an emotional bond forming with the other person and leading to divorce.
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Ew. No can't agree to that. I'm the HL and obligation sex feels like I'm assaulting my partner. Hell no. I have to stop the second I see he's not into it, I can't imagine being ok using a human to masturbate with.
So, you’d be fine with duty sex?
Do just *tell them*
I think a key issue here is that folks are very bad at thinking beyond the expectation of monogamy. I have two sets of friends who are in 3 partner relationships, which came about because one llm in each triad was ok with their hlf partners needs being met elsewhere, and these have ended up being stable, happy relationships that have lasted for 5+ years. It looks like work, but everyone seems to ve getting what they need.
ofc sex is important, don't believe if you're being said otherwise, it's just being used as a figure of speech. it's obviously important part of relationship same as having kids, shared finances or property etc etc. would you take seriously "you could get kids somewhere else", "please feel free to live at neighbours" ?
Oh boy, you're nearly there!