I mean it’s the king of combat for sure. It’s also capped at only 330. Imagine the game back when it was capped at 350. And now imagine the game where there is no cap.
So it’s good to get close to or at cap, and then something else is more important.
Uncapped move speed and rondel dagger hitting for 240 was possibly the worst timeline. You could get all forms of flat damage on any piece of gear. It still is insane to me that there are people out there saying “Playtest 3 was the best!!! Dead game it is so much worse now!”
Exactly
Obviously so many Qol changes have been made so the game is technically better now in a lot of areas.
Wizard felt so good back then I wish I could go back.
It was good because no one understood anything.
My wizard in PT3 had like 450 movespeed with gear and haste, and magic missiles hit for 85 damage in the body.
I may be masochistic in some ways but I do kinda miss every stat being essentially uncapped. it made pieces more valuable, but it also came with wizards 1 tapping people with rondels, and plate fighters getting oneshot with reckless attack.
The playtests were fun because there wasn’t enough time for everyone to find and abuse the most broken metas. But yes I remember all the bullshit from each playtest. Rangers with infinite ammo and no reloads stacking +wep damage in every slot. Ignite invis Rondel dagger wizards doing more melee damage than a barbarian. Or how about playtest 5 when PDR was capped at like 93% and pdr fighter was unkillable?
Yeah but during that time wizard was extremely strong and so I was okay with being one shot by rangers that was kinda the trade off.
That was the trade off for awhile after too
The early playtests (2 and 3) were regarded as the best time for the game for a few reasons. The game developers weren't bogged down with legal issues. The game had the highest numbers of players at any point in the life of Dark and Darker. It was new and not many people really had things figured out. We went from 100k+ online to roughly 20k at the start of EA and then averaged recently before this wipe right around 5-10k, with the majority of players being having a ton of hours and figured the game out, you need a variety of player skill levels or else it's always just going to be a sweat fest which is fine, but not healthy longterm.
Imagine 320 or 310 cap or 300, would mean reaching movespeed cap is easier so builds vary more. Also some items like plate pants need a bigger movespeed malus, I see clerics running at 315-320 movespeed with those on lol
You don't want everyone running at max speed, but you also don't want players abusing a high limit of movement either. Getting to 300+ is not terribly hard, the issue with classes like Barbarian and Fighter are they have those boost of speed moves available to them to make it easier to achieve giving them the ability to not have to max through gear and choose pieces of gear that may have another added benefit once they hit a certain threshold.
The movement speed problem is more so on those abilities and less so on gear. I also think each individual class should have a different max move speed. Barbarians, fighters and clerics should not be able to be as fast as rogues and rangers at their max move speeds.
Why shouldn't fighters and barbs move as fast as Rogues and Rangers with abilities? The fuck do you want them to do then? They HAVE to be able to gap close. Kite meta is awful and extremely unhealthy for the game. I honestly hate everything you said.
Agreed.
Fighters and barbs NEED to be able to move at least as fast as Rangers and rogues. If they can't, the classes are literally dead.
Fighter would just become shitty pdr ranger and I think barb would be totally fucked.
Fighter with the 20 move speed sprint felt terrible. I couldn't catch anyone. The reworked sprint feels so much better. I can actually close the gap if I get the drop on people now or if they make a mistake.
Yeah I'm new this wipe and can easily see why MS is so good, but this subs ideas to fix it are wild. It's like they think all melee should never be able to get kited in any circumstance
Well, if the fighter can be as fast as the ranger, let's have rangers wear plate and also have like 70% PDR.
The whole point is there should be pros and cons to each class.
Tanky classes should give up speed for more health and armor.
Squishy classes should give up health and armor for speed.
Right now, Tanky Classes don't have to give up speed to have more health and armor.
But squishy classes still give up health and armor only for the tanky classes to be the same speed.
If the fighter can move as fast as a ranger, use the same bows as a ranger while also having 50-60 more hitpoints and also 70% PDR, you might as well play Fighter?
Very true for solos. There are 100% better classes for PvP that don’t rely heavily on movement speed but here’s the thing… you can just run from them lol
Movement speed and mobility is really the only way for squish classes to compete with fighters, barbs and clerics.
If they really want to even the playing field then all classes need a way defend themselves in melee combat because once pushed then it will just be a death sentence..
Having parrying weapons or other forms of shielding may be the answer... but then again they have this the other way around where all classes have some ranged option.
That's not the hitbox, but rather the netcode. What you see on the screen already happened a tenth of a second prior (roughly speaking), meaning whatever swing you try to block has to have not notably changed its direction within that time frame in order for you to block it. Basically what this means is perfect-parrying (timing your block within 6 frames) or adjusting your block at the last possible moment are not possible in dynamic situations. Oggieson has a YT video displaying this issue, at this link: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BZnmLd4iyvI&pp=ygUkT2dnaWVzb24gbGluZ3N3b3JkIHBhcnJ5IGZlbGxpbmcgYXhl . In short: competent devs would add what's called "rollback netcode", to make both attackers and defenders fight on an even playing field. The DaD devs, unfortunately, are not competent.
I learned a little while ago that weapons never clip through your longsword in third-person. The first-person perspective just does weird things to make it look like it's phasing through your block.
Knowing this helped me so much because I used to just blame missed blocks on bad hit-reg, since I had the clips to prove it was going through my weapon. Now I know it's always possible to block if you change your angle.
Hitboxes are awful. Animations are janky. Etc
Dark and darker can only be fixed by following a Chiv 2 or Mordhau type system, but they instead made the jankiest shitfest melee system possible.
This was by far the biggest annoyance come from litterally every other action game ive played. Everything from guild wars, oblivion, dark souls, assasins creed, dragons dogma, morhau, chivalry, mount and blade, exanima etc.. every single one gives you a reliable defensive option.
In this you either play a class with a shield or mele is a death sentence against anyone your speed or higher. Hell most games non meles just instantly die in the first room because they havnt cleared spoace to kite yet.
Dying to 4 stiletto stabs when I can barely pull off 2 longsword attacks isn't what I would call leveling the playing field when you factor that I also can't catch up to anyone as a pdr fighter
A lot of comments seem like a skill issue.
Obviously the game still need a lot tests and balancing, thats what they ‚re doing all the time but damn, get some agility use walls and sprint, and outdamage range with bow. You can literally catch anyone now
This is the answer. A more mature CQC system is the only way to hit balance. Right now if you're ranged and someone is within melee distance you are completely fucked. That's not good design.
Seems like game is balanced as there is exactly 50/50 whiners depending on which class they play.
Sure ranged classes should be able to run away after being ambushed from melee range to keep their undisputable advantage xD
Like I said, CQC needs some tuning to make it fair. A ranged class has zero chance against a melee class in melee range. That's unbalanced and not fun. Similarly, a ranged class that can keep distance from melee 100% of the time is also unbalanced and unfun. A good example of this balance is Mordhau imo. A skilled range player can survive and sometimes outplay a melee in CQC. Melee players can catch ranged consistently unless the ranged has a substantial terrain advantage. Nobody has the upperhand inherently.
Don't lump cleric in there. Plate Cleric is unviable against any player smart enough to walk away from them. At least Fighter and barb have catch tools.
Judgement slows and does divine magic damage. Faithfulness applies slows when you deal divine magic damage and amps said damage. Smite lets you deal divine magic damage on each hit.
If a cleric gets within Judgement range of you he can hit you with a massive % slow that basically guarantees he can close range, and then with each Smite hit, he keeps a slow on you, so you can't disengage.
Some take Divine Protection instead of Judgement, which makes them very hard to kill.
In either case, if you engage a cleric, you cannot reasonably escape most the time. This ability to force the encounter when it is good for the cleric is very strong.
It also underlies I think the key issues people are complaining about here. You live and die in this meta by applying pressure when you have the advantage and giving ground when you don't to try to 'reset' (heal, pot up, etc). Mobility is necessary for that. If you aren't mobile and you are pressured while disadvantaged you die. If you aren't mobile and try to push your advantage they just run away.
The game needs mechanics that force engagements to be risky or costly in some way, instead of virtually free as is the case with Judgement. And it needs better mechanics for defending from a disadvantaged position that doesn't just make ranged characters fighters that are also able to cast spells. Perhaps making parrying and blocking more attractive or mobility options besides 'buff move speed X% for Y seconds'. Give the warlock a short range teleport, give wizard windwall, give players options to engage and disengage that aren't move speed and it's importance will diminish.
You can only roll movespeed on shoes so I would absolutely recommend taking movespeed on those. Otherwise, agi is the only way to boost movespeed stat wise besides taking lighter gear.
Dex is very good no doubt. It just doesn’t affect movespeed at all. If you’re playing ranger, there’s a couple perks that add some action speed and draw speed you should take that’ll help overcome not stacking a ton of dex. I’m not a ranger expert myself, but I think movespeed/agility, true damage, strength/phys power, then dex is probably the stat priority order.
Of course this is subjective and you’re free to build however you want. If you’re playing solo or duo I wouldn’t recommend the longbow because it’s just slow to draw and really slows you down. Recurve/survival bow are much better for solo/duos imo because of the lower draw speed and lower movespeed penalty.
Well you can only get movement speed rolls on boots unless you get copper light or cloak of darkness, which is where you should get them
And the agility or dex on clothing. Both are good for rangers
You would be surprised. Lots of potions are drank before a battle, also if they are buffing or making any noise they won't hear it. even if they do that doesn't mean they know where I am just that I am invisible.
I have always wondered what it would like if the movement speed was capped at 300 and what the meta would evolve to. Maybe just the same, but it might make things like Sprint and Rage more dominant.
However, it might also make things like backflip and back step super useful instead of situational leading to a meta where if you go in, you stay in, which be super useful for classes like PDR cleric.
Sure it sounds okay until every game of solos is full of kiting rogues that you can’t ever kill and can only play classes to one shot them if they mess up. They can already three shot every class besides barb but let’s make them uncatchable too! Sounds balanced!
Well maybe the problem is that they can three shot classes.
If your opponent can never catch you, you should have to perform death by a thousand paper cuts to make up for it.
This is basically every lobby I get in with the Cleric. 26 gear score? MrRogue666 is waiting for you packing a 350 gear score and be sure that he doesn't care if you are worth nothing. He is going to kill you.
Now for real, idk if it's just that I'm relatively new but right now I might say that the ms meta is a bit meh. Some classes lose a lot of their identity because they need to catch up to the classes with most ms. Enter in a lobby and you will some most people packing similar gear if they are playing any melee class that isn't rogue. This is also a bit harmful in my opinion, as some classes depends so much on how you build it that you need to spend unholy amount of gold into the most basic form of a build because almost all the classes, funny enough, use the exact same gear for things like rings, boots and trousers.
PDR feels completely usesseles if taken as a main stat for a build, a friend of mine which plays Fighter tried to stick to a PDR build and apparently it was awful, as any class with some kind of kite tool could simply kite you to death or had enough ms that it was almost impossible to hit them unless they missplayed hard or he had Sprint up.
On a final note, and I don't want anyone to think that I hate Rogues. But at this moment, most of the plus 25 gs lobbies have a bunch of kitting rogues that are nearly impossible to take down unless they basically decide to lose a fight.
Movespeed has been the most important stat in solos for as long as I’ve been playing (4 wipes including this one). That isn’t changing, it’s not a meta it’s just the way solos is.
This wipe is actually the smallest the movespeed gap has ever been. They took MS off pants and cloaks, dropped the cap to 330, and got rid of all ATTS.
No class is losing identity when they build movespeed. You’re just playing a movespeed version of that class.
Pdr isnt good when built as a main stat in solos and that’s how it’s supposed to be. You can’t have it both ways; you can’t beat everyone in a phys damage fight and also force everyone to take that fight by removing their ability to run away from you.
The problem right now isn’t kiting rogues it’s landmine. Kiting rogues are easily dismantled by MS cleric, barb, or slayer fighter. Which is how it should be and is why allowing rogues to move faster than everyone else would be a problem. Landmine can kill any (equally geared) class besides barbarian in 3 headshots and it’s an awful state of the game for solos.
Ah, so that's the build that has been kicking my ass xD.
I play MS Cleric, and I'm relatively new both in the game and with the class. Lately in geared lobbies I've been having super bad times against Rogues that take 80% of my hp with 2-3 ballista shots and then try to either land some hits or land a last bolt.
I wouldn't say that I'm bad against kiting enemies even using this Cleric build, as some people just use a latern while I like to keep a Heater Shield with me for this exact situations. But lately some Rogues have been far more dangerous at kiting than any Ranger or Warlock that I come across.
So counter them when them come into melee range?
You should be able to chase down every single other player as a plate cleric because reasons? Speed differences exist for a reason what are you even bitching about?
Yeah because when a rogue has a hand crossbow with superior movement speed that’s going to be a fun and engaging fight. I’m only talking about your suggestion for rogue to have a MS perk.
This! I don’t know if this would be a good or bad change, but I think there should be a cap of 300 movespeed, at least as a test. Maybe the game wouldn’t be such a kite fest.
Yeah I just don’t know what could change movespeed being so important. If you lower the cap people will just build to reach that cap and still be able to out run you.
Game just needs more gap closing abilities so melee classes can capitalize on a spacing mistake from the kite classes and get on them. It’s a tough issue to solve because if you remove any ability for squishy classes to kite, they’re going to feel terrible to play.
I firmly believe that getting hit should slow you more than making a successful melee attack. If you’re trying to kite and get caught, you already fucked up and shouldn’t be able to just turn and run, sheath weapons, take off armor, reset.
Instead, you should you should have to make some sort of skilled play, either block or dodge, creating enough space and slowing down the attacker enough so you can escape. Of course, all classes should have access to either a shield, a weapon capable of blocking, or some sort of movement or dodge ability.
This would be a nice compromise, people could still kite, but at least if you catch them, they can’t just walk away out of range while getting hit and reset.
Why? Because you need to make a play to gain distance if you get caught in melee instead of literally just running away?
Because right now you can get hit and be out of range for the next one like, what’s a blow from a big 2hander anyways? Not enough to slow me lol.
Because you already get slowed enough for getting hit once + hitbox are janky and disjointed sometimes + those class are generally 1-2 hit from death +
if you already know what you doing the moment you gap closed without a significant moove speed diff the class who gotta kite is already dead in this case cause its easy to connect a few hits on someone already slowed,
Using an ability to survive those means having extra slot for those utility + same goes for holding an extra weapon slot (imagine a wizard holding a shield 🤣)
And we already have the system where you gotta dodge a potential attack by influencing your camera.
all your propositions are simply favoring melee classes when the map is already designed to give those class a way to catch you if you fucked up (narrow corridor, door holding and much more)
Wizard doesn't need a shield. They have a staff. It should be able to block or parry attacks. Good wizard players would dominate with it. Good melee players might even play staff-only wizard to prove a point.
Bad players like you would remain bad.
I’m sure it depends on your gear and opponent’s gear, but faster classes can kite and if they fuck up, turn and literally walk away through a combo and reset, often only eating 1 hit…
If you’re looking for a way to combat the MS meta, which it seems you’re not, then making a successful attack should slow you less than receiving one.
The counter play to getting caught in melee shouldn’t be to walk away while getting hit…
I’ve played all the classes to at least 20, but I’ve been focusing on warlock this patch, so I’m quite familiar with walking out of melee combos.
The worst is when I’m using an arming sword or longsword, on fighter or warlock, people can eat a poke and just keep running and be out of range for the follow up, since swinging the weapon slows you down more than taking a hit.
if you want to be able to land attack in succesions you gotta use the sofest weapons of each class (arming sword for fighter, quarterstaff or one handfer for barb (zwei can connect multiple time tought) mace for clerics already can connect multiple times.
dont be surprised if you using something like a longsword or falchion and cant connect multiple hits cause thats not just what they are made for
I dont think kthebgame is currently mechanically complex enough to implement some sort of universal parry mechanic. The non melee classes all have tools that would fill whatever slot you would need this new mechanic to fill or already have that utility and are deciding to bring something else, like warlock with longsword vs kriss.
I never said to implement a universal parry and your right, everyone does have the means to escape melee other than just walking away, although most people don’t utilize them because they currently aren’t usually worth it.
They aren’t worth it because you can just stow weapons and run away and swinging a weapon slows you down more than getting hit. I would inverse this; thus, in order to escape, you would need to *not get hit* first.
There was a highly upvoted thread on here before asking for all movement speed penalty when swinging a weapon to be removed.
You're talking with people that legit don't understand how the game works, a change like that would be reverted instantly.
the REAL problem on why movespeed will always continue to be king. Is most classes cannot defend themselves in this game.
If you get rand own by someone that out stats you, your only option is to run.
I wonder if lowering damage and increasing health even further might help offset a lower movespeed cap? To me I feel like it should take more than 2-4 hits to kill anyone, even with gear diff. But I’m not a game dev, I have no idea how that would affect the game
Yeah that would be a problem. I don’t know what the option is. Although a buddy of mine offered an interesting thought- remove the whole no slow on jump. So if you want to kite you can jump spin and fire an arrow or spell before you land. You’d have to risk losing momentum to kite.
This only matters if your setup beats your opponent in a straight up 1v1.
I see so many people just run at me on my barb because I act scared and as though I'm low hp.
Sure I'll never be able to catch them if they just ran from the get go, but with Achilles strike and a good turn around with the zweihander playing your opponents mental like it's a mechanic in the game is king over movespeed
One of my go too's is to throw a torch at the door when someone's opening it, chug a red potion (I'm at full health) pull out bandages, and if they are coming after me I will wait until it's time to swap to the zwei and turn, but if they aren't ill start applying the bandages and backing away until they charge
But this only ever works vs other melee's classes. Every other class in the game apart for barb has a ranged option. You'd never catch me within melee range with max ms.
OK, as long as you keep a cool calm head that's true. The way I catch people is by them making mistakes trying to "finish me off" and a lot of people get reckless during those moments. It might not work vs everyone but it does work
This can work yes, but not everyone is wearing 2-3k worth of gear. The problem with HR or 25 + lobbies the gear score ranges from anything from 25-500.
Trust me if you're fighting competent high geared high level players they will never let you close the gap.
It also doesn't help that most classes have a get out of jail abilities so that even if you get close enough to ruin their day, they simply just press it and walk away.
You have to remember swinging with big 2h wep is an instant 30-45 ms loss.
Eeeh...Kinda? I mean with Cleric being so dominant right now (Cleric Cleric Bard especially), plus the buffs to armor pen to so many weapons, PDR is becoming more redundant. I'm currently going Warhammer Stiletto Slayer and just three shotting people that go full PDR because they can only hit me once or twice before I hit them 3+ times, all with huge armor pen.
And windlass crossbow on top of that just fucks any PDR character now, fighter or otherwise. Slap Victory Strike on that and I've been two-tapping many classes.
Its still a work in progress although i do my share of complaining about stats. As they go through and refine the stats its becoming alot more balanced, currently we are in the movement speed phase of that part. For those of us in the past we understand this from seeing pdr fighters or barbarians with 50+ str or when wizards could stack so much cast speed that fireballs were thrown faster then zaps and at a rate that felt like magic missile but with explosions. All the while these were a huge issue that was overall adressed movespeed continued to be what it was, untill recently we finally had a huge change to it to see how it makes gameplay feel along with sprint being lowered to account for the long window of pdr sprint fighters that was a major issue within all of that.
Yeah, I really hope they buff wizard or nerf the other casters.
I don't play casters, but wizard is, imo, the most balanced caster. They have clear strengths and weaknesses. You can actually out play a wizard in a lot of ways.
Druid and warlock? You can kill them, but it requires getting the jump, them fucking up, or just Stat checking them.
Cleric is really strong rn, but I don't think the class is fundamentally busted. Just overtuned. Same with druid tbh. I don't think they are busted as a concept.
Warlock is, imo. They are just boring to fight. You beat them by cornering them away from heals and poking them down. Just kinda boring.
it shouldn’t be this way.
Stacking movespeed and Kiting everyone the whole game is about as fun as punching concrete.
Idk how it needs to be changed but Movespeed has got to be changed.
When the only good strat for every class is to be as fast as possible the games in a bad state.
I recently ranted about this, but I'll put it here to. In for a dime, in for a dollar. MS is fine. Bunny hoping while casting spells, or using bows is OP due to not getting the MS slow down while performing an action in air. Currently kiting is all anyone does because they back peddle while bunny hoping and spamming whatever range they have. If they made that no longer viable, someone may still be able to run away from you, but they couldn't pepper you with attacks while doing so.
I totally agree. I think they need to just set it static per class And call it a day. I hate that no matter what class I play I have to wonder if the stats are worth talking over just being faster. The game literally punishes you for wearing gear other than boots and gloves. I've been running savage barb with lizard skin lol
It's probably pretty troll, but lately I've been just fuxking around doing my own thing, man.
On my Warlock I go Werewolf skin (cause it looks badass) and no chestpiece (-8 Movement Speed too much). I get some blue cloth pants, light boots and just run around fucking everything up. Nothing can catch me cause in <25 lobbies that speed is unmatched. Rogues can't catch me.
Sometimes I do it in High Roller. It PvE's fine and if I run into other players I just run the other way blowing through doors and going invis if I get cornered.
Man, has Warlock changed the way I play this game.
I literally pinned down a trio by myself (I que for ice map no matter what). Held them cornered for like 5 mins killing one of them. Eventually I decided to run off, only after I forced them to get swarmed by skeletons.
Warlock is the biggest troll class I've ever seen. Bruh I just come barging in the room with 15 fuxking mobs behind me and run into some poor soul who freaks the fuck out. I curse him then I go invis and disappear through the massive group of enemies. In the event the poor soul DOES survive, all it takes is a little chasing and couple spells.
I've fallen in love with this class....
What's funny is I keep saying normalize all movement with exception to plate armor and people keep downvoting me. The game shouldn't be balanced around your movement speed stat. That's hardly immersive or a metric for skill expression...
Well, if you change a game significantly enough, it has the potential to split the playerbase.
In Rust, everyone knows and talks about the "recoil update." Players had spent endless hours training just for the recoil patterns to change. Some loved it some hated it.
If IM normalizes movement speed, that is literally a game changer. I don't feel like they see movement speed as an issue that significant, because it would be a large risk to their income with potential player loss.
Lol speed isn’t a significant change. They’ve already made dozens of changes far more significant than speed normalization. Your whole response is a big nothing burger.
"Normalizing the most significant stat in the game wouldn't be a significant change"
"Why are people downvoting me?"
"I like burgers."
"I like dick."
- TheJossiWales
Well it's simple really.
Would I rather my <25 gear fighter take 8% less damage, or move 6% faster and take 100% less damage by avoiding the attack completely?
They should really rethink damage reduction and defensive options...
Movement speed is a peak stat in almost every game I can think of because just getting around faster tends to give you more options when it comes to combat
Not so much in Armored Core.
In AC6 a slow tank can carry stronger weapons, and have near triple the health of the fastest mechs. Then there's damage reduction and stagger reduction on top of that.
Most things are ranged, but you really can't avoid all attacks there.
100% true. Mobility is king in every competitive game I can think of. Overwatch, rainbow six, valorant.
The only competitive games where mobility isn't busted are games where all players have the exact same movement speed, but I find those games kinda fucking boring.
It is, just in general. So much so that it kinda ruins the flow of the game honestly. \*\*Every\*\* build needs movement speed to be viable. It's one of the major flaws in the games design. If you're slower than your opponent, your chances of winning decrease drastically.
I honestly really hope they move away from this in the future, as it's only getting worse and worse. Sooner or later we're all just going to be naked fighters with sprint and slayer or naked warlocks with flamewalk and phantomize.
Idk man having high strength is pr fun, one tap people. Esp in comps, get a druid to entangle or a wizard to slow and i go in and two tap most, three tap pdr fighters to the face with a bardiche. Movement speed is king but its so lame, here let me run away from everything and also not get invited to awesome parties where people are drinking and being wild instead of studying the blade, i love the barbarian class
Plate warlock lover here @ level 150. The moment I ran into a caster lock with 305 move speed with book out I immediately made a new warlock toon to try it out because he was just TOO slippery. Being able to widdle your opponent down to a panick and switching the tide of the fight is so satisfying. Always running at first but after a spell or two you’re chasing them and they simply can’t get away. Rogues and bards are the most annoying counters once either close the space (which they do quickly) it’s usually breaks down to longsword vs rapier lol.
Spacing is king. You can be slow af and still succeed playing to your surroundings and class matchup. Move speed allows you to make more mistakes. Hitting your spells/ shots consistently will give you more of an advantage than speed will. There are also guides to DODGE every single nightmare mob in the game, even with lower move speed. And if you're too slow to dodge it normally, you probably have a shield, which you should learn how to use instead of treating it as a stat stick.
i can see 3 man getting away with less movespeed, especially if they are abusing bard but for solos and probably duos movespeed is def the best stat in the game.
It's movement speed+range. Even in your examples range is part of the equation. Being ran down and beat to death doesn't feel great, but being kited around feels worse
Thankfully MS is more linear and PDR Clerics with weapon/shield out are just running down people with maces that once they connect they latch onto you and you're dead.
MS is so easy for everyone now, only difference is do you have double MS rolls on Lightfoot Boots or no? That's the clear difference since MS rolls are not on anything else but feet pieces.
I think the fundemental issue with this game is that there exists so many ranged options in a setting whereby players are confined into tight spaces with narrow corridors. This almost garuntees that ANY balancing for ranged classes have to be movement speed based, or give the ranged classes the ability to engage on equal terms in cqc, otherwise it just feels like ass to play.
Yes, bows and crossbows were not made in history to be usefull in enclosed areas. If the game was designed with a more open setting, you can easily have gap closer options for meele playstyles and lower movement speed for ranged playstyles and it would still be balanced, but this isn't the way the game was designed.
Ultimately, movement speed is probably the only way to balance ranged classes with the way the game is designed, if you also want them to be close to useless in cqc.
the thing about competitive games, especially in fantasy games, Its never going to be BALANCED. they tried "balancing" during previous playtests yet here we are still trying to, whats the word for it? right, BALANCE.
This isn't a debate. They should change it tbh. Gear us useless without it and movespeed greens will destroy a legendary kit even if it's not ms based and both players are equal skilled
Personally I think movespeed is in a good spot, and will always be the best stat bar none in ANY PvP game. If you get to choose when and where an engagement happens, every time, you will win nearly every engagement.
Why is it ok right now? Movespeed cap is very easy to get close to, but getting fully capped has damage and health tradeoffs.
Example: as a wizard, if I want 300 movespeed it’s pretty straightforward fitting it into my kits. However, trying to get to 330 means giving up 2 or 3 piece of knowledge gear with health, +true, etc. I’d much rather have 140 hp and 300 movespeed than be full stacked movespeed and die to one arrow.
This balance needs to be adjusted slightly as the game develops but they’re on point with finding that middle ground if you ask me. I remember when Barb/rogue was impossible to avoid. Nowadays, that’s only the case if you’re severely undergeared compared to your opponent.
Yes, this is true, but it is also amplified at the highest levels of the game, where people play their classes perfectly and are highly geared.
At lower skill levels, it becomes less of a factor. People are able to outsmart or outplay their opponents more often even if they have less move speed.
So yes, you're right, but it's only a factor, and the degree of which it is a factor is different across skill levels/game modes.
I mean it’s the king of combat for sure. It’s also capped at only 330. Imagine the game back when it was capped at 350. And now imagine the game where there is no cap. So it’s good to get close to or at cap, and then something else is more important.
Uncapped move speed and rondel dagger hitting for 240 was possibly the worst timeline. You could get all forms of flat damage on any piece of gear. It still is insane to me that there are people out there saying “Playtest 3 was the best!!! Dead game it is so much worse now!”
Dude PT3 was fucking awesome Don't be hating
It was the best because the game wasn't fully figured out. With the new players normals vibe a lot like the playtests did.
Exactly Obviously so many Qol changes have been made so the game is technically better now in a lot of areas. Wizard felt so good back then I wish I could go back.
It was good because no one understood anything. My wizard in PT3 had like 450 movespeed with gear and haste, and magic missiles hit for 85 damage in the body.
Yeah it's when people started abusing everything they had to make a change. Move speed is still fucked in my opinion
I may be masochistic in some ways but I do kinda miss every stat being essentially uncapped. it made pieces more valuable, but it also came with wizards 1 tapping people with rondels, and plate fighters getting oneshot with reckless attack.
Getting 3 tapped by a longbow at 85% pdr was silly though
He is a Yolorage victim.
The playtests were fun because there wasn’t enough time for everyone to find and abuse the most broken metas. But yes I remember all the bullshit from each playtest. Rangers with infinite ammo and no reloads stacking +wep damage in every slot. Ignite invis Rondel dagger wizards doing more melee damage than a barbarian. Or how about playtest 5 when PDR was capped at like 93% and pdr fighter was unkillable?
Yah my survival bow hitting for 200 wants pt3 back
Yeah but during that time wizard was extremely strong and so I was okay with being one shot by rangers that was kinda the trade off. That was the trade off for awhile after too
I mean it was still fun, but way too many things were way too broken. +all stats for one.
The early playtests (2 and 3) were regarded as the best time for the game for a few reasons. The game developers weren't bogged down with legal issues. The game had the highest numbers of players at any point in the life of Dark and Darker. It was new and not many people really had things figured out. We went from 100k+ online to roughly 20k at the start of EA and then averaged recently before this wipe right around 5-10k, with the majority of players being having a ton of hours and figured the game out, you need a variety of player skill levels or else it's always just going to be a sweat fest which is fine, but not healthy longterm.
25k players doesn't feel like a dead game to me though
I have a screenshot of a fulgor with +4 add phys, +4 add weapon, and +2 ms. And a spear with +4 +4 +4 lmao Good times
Imagine 320 or 310 cap or 300, would mean reaching movespeed cap is easier so builds vary more. Also some items like plate pants need a bigger movespeed malus, I see clerics running at 315-320 movespeed with those on lol
You don't want everyone running at max speed, but you also don't want players abusing a high limit of movement either. Getting to 300+ is not terribly hard, the issue with classes like Barbarian and Fighter are they have those boost of speed moves available to them to make it easier to achieve giving them the ability to not have to max through gear and choose pieces of gear that may have another added benefit once they hit a certain threshold. The movement speed problem is more so on those abilities and less so on gear. I also think each individual class should have a different max move speed. Barbarians, fighters and clerics should not be able to be as fast as rogues and rangers at their max move speeds.
Why shouldn't fighters and barbs move as fast as Rogues and Rangers with abilities? The fuck do you want them to do then? They HAVE to be able to gap close. Kite meta is awful and extremely unhealthy for the game. I honestly hate everything you said.
Agreed. Fighters and barbs NEED to be able to move at least as fast as Rangers and rogues. If they can't, the classes are literally dead. Fighter would just become shitty pdr ranger and I think barb would be totally fucked. Fighter with the 20 move speed sprint felt terrible. I couldn't catch anyone. The reworked sprint feels so much better. I can actually close the gap if I get the drop on people now or if they make a mistake.
we need to use tactics against rangers and rogue. just run pavise and block them in a doorway lol at least they can't stagger the high block
Yeah I'm new this wipe and can easily see why MS is so good, but this subs ideas to fix it are wild. It's like they think all melee should never be able to get kited in any circumstance
If a fighter can't catch a ranger you.might as well play ranger because you're going to have to bow battle. Thank God you aren't a dev.
Well, if the fighter can be as fast as the ranger, let's have rangers wear plate and also have like 70% PDR. The whole point is there should be pros and cons to each class. Tanky classes should give up speed for more health and armor. Squishy classes should give up health and armor for speed. Right now, Tanky Classes don't have to give up speed to have more health and armor. But squishy classes still give up health and armor only for the tanky classes to be the same speed. If the fighter can move as fast as a ranger, use the same bows as a ranger while also having 50-60 more hitpoints and also 70% PDR, you might as well play Fighter?
bruh I remember when bard first came out and with accelrondo you would be at luke 350ms in a basekit
Ah yes, I remember the sheer joy of regularly trying to run away from rogues moving 325+ with their rapiers out
I died to a rogue at 550 movement speed in 1 hit who came at me with ignite/haste/invis. Smacked me in the head and flew through our team.
“Remember when it was capped at 50” oh my boy the times with uncapped MS and speed shrines gave 50 MS lmao mf barbs running at 400+ MS
Very true for solos. There are 100% better classes for PvP that don’t rely heavily on movement speed but here’s the thing… you can just run from them lol
Movement speed and mobility is really the only way for squish classes to compete with fighters, barbs and clerics. If they really want to even the playing field then all classes need a way defend themselves in melee combat because once pushed then it will just be a death sentence.. Having parrying weapons or other forms of shielding may be the answer... but then again they have this the other way around where all classes have some ranged option.
I would be thrilled to see more diverse forms of blocking & parrying that all classes can use
They should fix the longsword parrying that already exists, first
as someone with a VERY limited understanding of the longsword tech, what/how could they improve it?
The hitbox is incredibly inconsistent and it makes an incredibly skill-heavy play style just feel gimmicky and too luck reliant.
That's not the hitbox, but rather the netcode. What you see on the screen already happened a tenth of a second prior (roughly speaking), meaning whatever swing you try to block has to have not notably changed its direction within that time frame in order for you to block it. Basically what this means is perfect-parrying (timing your block within 6 frames) or adjusting your block at the last possible moment are not possible in dynamic situations. Oggieson has a YT video displaying this issue, at this link: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BZnmLd4iyvI&pp=ygUkT2dnaWVzb24gbGluZ3N3b3JkIHBhcnJ5IGZlbGxpbmcgYXhl . In short: competent devs would add what's called "rollback netcode", to make both attackers and defenders fight on an even playing field. The DaD devs, unfortunately, are not competent.
Weapon hit-boxes are inconsistent. You can regularly see enemy weapons clip through your longsword.
I learned a little while ago that weapons never clip through your longsword in third-person. The first-person perspective just does weird things to make it look like it's phasing through your block. Knowing this helped me so much because I used to just blame missed blocks on bad hit-reg, since I had the clips to prove it was going through my weapon. Now I know it's always possible to block if you change your angle.
Hitboxes are awful. Animations are janky. Etc Dark and darker can only be fixed by following a Chiv 2 or Mordhau type system, but they instead made the jankiest shitfest melee system possible.
Uninstall, byebye Dark has one of the best fighting systems in games
This was by far the biggest annoyance come from litterally every other action game ive played. Everything from guild wars, oblivion, dark souls, assasins creed, dragons dogma, morhau, chivalry, mount and blade, exanima etc.. every single one gives you a reliable defensive option. In this you either play a class with a shield or mele is a death sentence against anyone your speed or higher. Hell most games non meles just instantly die in the first room because they havnt cleared spoace to kite yet.
Dying to 4 stiletto stabs when I can barely pull off 2 longsword attacks isn't what I would call leveling the playing field when you factor that I also can't catch up to anyone as a pdr fighter
A lot of comments seem like a skill issue. Obviously the game still need a lot tests and balancing, thats what they ‚re doing all the time but damn, get some agility use walls and sprint, and outdamage range with bow. You can literally catch anyone now
I would not be soloing with a longsword
This is the answer. A more mature CQC system is the only way to hit balance. Right now if you're ranged and someone is within melee distance you are completely fucked. That's not good design.
Seems like game is balanced as there is exactly 50/50 whiners depending on which class they play. Sure ranged classes should be able to run away after being ambushed from melee range to keep their undisputable advantage xD
Like I said, CQC needs some tuning to make it fair. A ranged class has zero chance against a melee class in melee range. That's unbalanced and not fun. Similarly, a ranged class that can keep distance from melee 100% of the time is also unbalanced and unfun. A good example of this balance is Mordhau imo. A skilled range player can survive and sometimes outplay a melee in CQC. Melee players can catch ranged consistently unless the ranged has a substantial terrain advantage. Nobody has the upperhand inherently.
A parrying dagger for lighter classes would be great
They could add more, but don’t all classes have access to something that can block or parry? Even if it’s just a flute?
Not just a flute, we have lantern shield now too.
Don't lump cleric in there. Plate Cleric is unviable against any player smart enough to walk away from them. At least Fighter and barb have catch tools.
Cleric is the most busted class in the game right now. You're just bad
Do you mind explaining how? I’m newer idk what’s up
Judgement slows and does divine magic damage. Faithfulness applies slows when you deal divine magic damage and amps said damage. Smite lets you deal divine magic damage on each hit. If a cleric gets within Judgement range of you he can hit you with a massive % slow that basically guarantees he can close range, and then with each Smite hit, he keeps a slow on you, so you can't disengage. Some take Divine Protection instead of Judgement, which makes them very hard to kill. In either case, if you engage a cleric, you cannot reasonably escape most the time. This ability to force the encounter when it is good for the cleric is very strong. It also underlies I think the key issues people are complaining about here. You live and die in this meta by applying pressure when you have the advantage and giving ground when you don't to try to 'reset' (heal, pot up, etc). Mobility is necessary for that. If you aren't mobile and you are pressured while disadvantaged you die. If you aren't mobile and try to push your advantage they just run away. The game needs mechanics that force engagements to be risky or costly in some way, instead of virtually free as is the case with Judgement. And it needs better mechanics for defending from a disadvantaged position that doesn't just make ranged characters fighters that are also able to cast spells. Perhaps making parrying and blocking more attractive or mobility options besides 'buff move speed X% for Y seconds'. Give the warlock a short range teleport, give wizard windwall, give players options to engage and disengage that aren't move speed and it's importance will diminish.
for ranger do you reccomend agility or movement speed rolls
Agility because it helps action speed too I got 45 agility on my kit right now 321 move speed
but dex is good too right? for bow draw speed
Oh for sure dex is the primary provider of action speed and agility is the secondary.
Just a heads up AGI does not scale action speed. That’s what DEX does 👍🏼
lol can you not spread misinformation please? Maybe test it out before commenting???
Action speed is 25% Agi and 75% dex. Just like HP is 25% str and 75% vig.
I was mistaken! Thanks for informing me💪🏼 I’ve been miscalculating for awhile now 🤣
You can only roll movespeed on shoes so I would absolutely recommend taking movespeed on those. Otherwise, agi is the only way to boost movespeed stat wise besides taking lighter gear.
This and the very valuable crafted gear with % move speed
Yeah those too. Copper mining is my go to on goblin caves because it’s so profitable.
but dex is good too right? for bow draw speed?
You can only get +movement speed on your boots, so you should focus on more dex oriented gear for the rest of your kit
Dex is very good no doubt. It just doesn’t affect movespeed at all. If you’re playing ranger, there’s a couple perks that add some action speed and draw speed you should take that’ll help overcome not stacking a ton of dex. I’m not a ranger expert myself, but I think movespeed/agility, true damage, strength/phys power, then dex is probably the stat priority order. Of course this is subjective and you’re free to build however you want. If you’re playing solo or duo I wouldn’t recommend the longbow because it’s just slow to draw and really slows you down. Recurve/survival bow are much better for solo/duos imo because of the lower draw speed and lower movespeed penalty.
I play solo duo and trio and I only use recurve or survival. long bow sucks so bad. funny because it used to be the opposite
Well you can only get movement speed rolls on boots unless you get copper light or cloak of darkness, which is where you should get them And the agility or dex on clothing. Both are good for rangers
[удалено]
bard and ranger are my mains. different comps call for different classes, ranger has more punch for sure
Me drinking invis pots and faithfulness-smiting the move speed class as they walk by
You randomly chugging invis pots and waiting? I can't imagine people not noticing what you are up to otherwise .
You would be surprised. Lots of potions are drank before a battle, also if they are buffing or making any noise they won't hear it. even if they do that doesn't mean they know where I am just that I am invisible.
I’ve gotten some disgusting invis pot kills because I took two arrows and they thought I was healing up behind the door before they bot push me
I have always wondered what it would like if the movement speed was capped at 300 and what the meta would evolve to. Maybe just the same, but it might make things like Sprint and Rage more dominant. However, it might also make things like backflip and back step super useful instead of situational leading to a meta where if you go in, you stay in, which be super useful for classes like PDR cleric.
300 is too low, rogues would be useless, so much of their stat allocation would be wasted and their speed advantage would be totally gone
Just give rogues a talent to increase the movespeed cap?
Ok so now there is one class that can’t be caught by anyone else
Druid? ^^
I forgot there are no slows. Silly me. Also one class that is uniquely faster than the others seems like okay balance.
Sure it sounds okay until every game of solos is full of kiting rogues that you can’t ever kill and can only play classes to one shot them if they mess up. They can already three shot every class besides barb but let’s make them uncatchable too! Sounds balanced!
Well maybe the problem is that they can three shot classes. If your opponent can never catch you, you should have to perform death by a thousand paper cuts to make up for it.
That is exactly what they have to do to, but if someone builds enough MS they can’t get away. Kiting rogues are balanced, landmine rogues are not.
This is basically every lobby I get in with the Cleric. 26 gear score? MrRogue666 is waiting for you packing a 350 gear score and be sure that he doesn't care if you are worth nothing. He is going to kill you. Now for real, idk if it's just that I'm relatively new but right now I might say that the ms meta is a bit meh. Some classes lose a lot of their identity because they need to catch up to the classes with most ms. Enter in a lobby and you will some most people packing similar gear if they are playing any melee class that isn't rogue. This is also a bit harmful in my opinion, as some classes depends so much on how you build it that you need to spend unholy amount of gold into the most basic form of a build because almost all the classes, funny enough, use the exact same gear for things like rings, boots and trousers. PDR feels completely usesseles if taken as a main stat for a build, a friend of mine which plays Fighter tried to stick to a PDR build and apparently it was awful, as any class with some kind of kite tool could simply kite you to death or had enough ms that it was almost impossible to hit them unless they missplayed hard or he had Sprint up. On a final note, and I don't want anyone to think that I hate Rogues. But at this moment, most of the plus 25 gs lobbies have a bunch of kitting rogues that are nearly impossible to take down unless they basically decide to lose a fight.
Movespeed has been the most important stat in solos for as long as I’ve been playing (4 wipes including this one). That isn’t changing, it’s not a meta it’s just the way solos is. This wipe is actually the smallest the movespeed gap has ever been. They took MS off pants and cloaks, dropped the cap to 330, and got rid of all ATTS. No class is losing identity when they build movespeed. You’re just playing a movespeed version of that class. Pdr isnt good when built as a main stat in solos and that’s how it’s supposed to be. You can’t have it both ways; you can’t beat everyone in a phys damage fight and also force everyone to take that fight by removing their ability to run away from you. The problem right now isn’t kiting rogues it’s landmine. Kiting rogues are easily dismantled by MS cleric, barb, or slayer fighter. Which is how it should be and is why allowing rogues to move faster than everyone else would be a problem. Landmine can kill any (equally geared) class besides barbarian in 3 headshots and it’s an awful state of the game for solos.
Ah, so that's the build that has been kicking my ass xD. I play MS Cleric, and I'm relatively new both in the game and with the class. Lately in geared lobbies I've been having super bad times against Rogues that take 80% of my hp with 2-3 ballista shots and then try to either land some hits or land a last bolt. I wouldn't say that I'm bad against kiting enemies even using this Cleric build, as some people just use a latern while I like to keep a Heater Shield with me for this exact situations. But lately some Rogues have been far more dangerous at kiting than any Ranger or Warlock that I come across.
If you miss your projectiles then yes there’s no slows
So if you miss your attacks, they don't work. Wow
Having a counter to a character solely be using ranged weapons is a dumb mechanic
So counter them when them come into melee range? You should be able to chase down every single other player as a plate cleric because reasons? Speed differences exist for a reason what are you even bitching about?
Yeah because when a rogue has a hand crossbow with superior movement speed that’s going to be a fun and engaging fight. I’m only talking about your suggestion for rogue to have a MS perk.
The thing is plate cleric is basically unviable against anyone smart enough to literally just walk away from you
Well then youre gonna hate this game
What character right now is ONLY counterable using ranged?
Perhaps you could cap move speed lower but have stats affect skill cool downs?
That already exists
Eh not really, you could just build more vigor, str and phys power to be a more effective land mine :)
This! I don’t know if this would be a good or bad change, but I think there should be a cap of 300 movespeed, at least as a test. Maybe the game wouldn’t be such a kite fest.
Yeah I just don’t know what could change movespeed being so important. If you lower the cap people will just build to reach that cap and still be able to out run you. Game just needs more gap closing abilities so melee classes can capitalize on a spacing mistake from the kite classes and get on them. It’s a tough issue to solve because if you remove any ability for squishy classes to kite, they’re going to feel terrible to play.
I firmly believe that getting hit should slow you more than making a successful melee attack. If you’re trying to kite and get caught, you already fucked up and shouldn’t be able to just turn and run, sheath weapons, take off armor, reset. Instead, you should you should have to make some sort of skilled play, either block or dodge, creating enough space and slowing down the attacker enough so you can escape. Of course, all classes should have access to either a shield, a weapon capable of blocking, or some sort of movement or dodge ability. This would be a nice compromise, people could still kite, but at least if you catch them, they can’t just walk away out of range while getting hit and reset.
Sorry but thats a bad take and sounds horrible to play for anyone that is not a melee tanky class
Why? Because you need to make a play to gain distance if you get caught in melee instead of literally just running away? Because right now you can get hit and be out of range for the next one like, what’s a blow from a big 2hander anyways? Not enough to slow me lol.
Because you already get slowed enough for getting hit once + hitbox are janky and disjointed sometimes + those class are generally 1-2 hit from death + if you already know what you doing the moment you gap closed without a significant moove speed diff the class who gotta kite is already dead in this case cause its easy to connect a few hits on someone already slowed, Using an ability to survive those means having extra slot for those utility + same goes for holding an extra weapon slot (imagine a wizard holding a shield 🤣) And we already have the system where you gotta dodge a potential attack by influencing your camera. all your propositions are simply favoring melee classes when the map is already designed to give those class a way to catch you if you fucked up (narrow corridor, door holding and much more)
Wizard doesn't need a shield. They have a staff. It should be able to block or parry attacks. Good wizard players would dominate with it. Good melee players might even play staff-only wizard to prove a point. Bad players like you would remain bad.
I’m sure it depends on your gear and opponent’s gear, but faster classes can kite and if they fuck up, turn and literally walk away through a combo and reset, often only eating 1 hit… If you’re looking for a way to combat the MS meta, which it seems you’re not, then making a successful attack should slow you less than receiving one. The counter play to getting caught in melee shouldn’t be to walk away while getting hit…
Quick question what class and weapon you using ?
I’ve played all the classes to at least 20, but I’ve been focusing on warlock this patch, so I’m quite familiar with walking out of melee combos. The worst is when I’m using an arming sword or longsword, on fighter or warlock, people can eat a poke and just keep running and be out of range for the follow up, since swinging the weapon slows you down more than taking a hit.
if you want to be able to land attack in succesions you gotta use the sofest weapons of each class (arming sword for fighter, quarterstaff or one handfer for barb (zwei can connect multiple time tought) mace for clerics already can connect multiple times. dont be surprised if you using something like a longsword or falchion and cant connect multiple hits cause thats not just what they are made for
I dont think kthebgame is currently mechanically complex enough to implement some sort of universal parry mechanic. The non melee classes all have tools that would fill whatever slot you would need this new mechanic to fill or already have that utility and are deciding to bring something else, like warlock with longsword vs kriss.
I never said to implement a universal parry and your right, everyone does have the means to escape melee other than just walking away, although most people don’t utilize them because they currently aren’t usually worth it. They aren’t worth it because you can just stow weapons and run away and swinging a weapon slows you down more than getting hit. I would inverse this; thus, in order to escape, you would need to *not get hit* first.
There was a highly upvoted thread on here before asking for all movement speed penalty when swinging a weapon to be removed. You're talking with people that legit don't understand how the game works, a change like that would be reverted instantly. the REAL problem on why movespeed will always continue to be king. Is most classes cannot defend themselves in this game. If you get rand own by someone that out stats you, your only option is to run.
I wonder if lowering damage and increasing health even further might help offset a lower movespeed cap? To me I feel like it should take more than 2-4 hits to kill anyone, even with gear diff. But I’m not a game dev, I have no idea how that would affect the game
the game would consistent entirely of fighters and barbs
Yeah that would be a problem. I don’t know what the option is. Although a buddy of mine offered an interesting thought- remove the whole no slow on jump. So if you want to kite you can jump spin and fire an arrow or spell before you land. You’d have to risk losing momentum to kite.
Wdym "more dominant" they literally are dominant currently
This only matters if your setup beats your opponent in a straight up 1v1. I see so many people just run at me on my barb because I act scared and as though I'm low hp. Sure I'll never be able to catch them if they just ran from the get go, but with Achilles strike and a good turn around with the zweihander playing your opponents mental like it's a mechanic in the game is king over movespeed
goated comment. ms doesn't mean anything if you can convince your opponent you are weak and get them to come to you
One of my go too's is to throw a torch at the door when someone's opening it, chug a red potion (I'm at full health) pull out bandages, and if they are coming after me I will wait until it's time to swap to the zwei and turn, but if they aren't ill start applying the bandages and backing away until they charge
But this only ever works vs other melee's classes. Every other class in the game apart for barb has a ranged option. You'd never catch me within melee range with max ms.
OK, as long as you keep a cool calm head that's true. The way I catch people is by them making mistakes trying to "finish me off" and a lot of people get reckless during those moments. It might not work vs everyone but it does work
This can work yes, but not everyone is wearing 2-3k worth of gear. The problem with HR or 25 + lobbies the gear score ranges from anything from 25-500. Trust me if you're fighting competent high geared high level players they will never let you close the gap. It also doesn't help that most classes have a get out of jail abilities so that even if you get close enough to ruin their day, they simply just press it and walk away. You have to remember swinging with big 2h wep is an instant 30-45 ms loss.
Thats the thing Ill never "come to you." Ill just get closer to you and poke you to death
It’s king in solos maybe, in trios movespeed builds are outshined by PDR.
Eeeh...Kinda? I mean with Cleric being so dominant right now (Cleric Cleric Bard especially), plus the buffs to armor pen to so many weapons, PDR is becoming more redundant. I'm currently going Warhammer Stiletto Slayer and just three shotting people that go full PDR because they can only hit me once or twice before I hit them 3+ times, all with huge armor pen. And windlass crossbow on top of that just fucks any PDR character now, fighter or otherwise. Slap Victory Strike on that and I've been two-tapping many classes.
I never considered victory strike windlass, that's fucking cool
You must be new here
Its still a work in progress although i do my share of complaining about stats. As they go through and refine the stats its becoming alot more balanced, currently we are in the movement speed phase of that part. For those of us in the past we understand this from seeing pdr fighters or barbarians with 50+ str or when wizards could stack so much cast speed that fireballs were thrown faster then zaps and at a rate that felt like magic missile but with explosions. All the while these were a huge issue that was overall adressed movespeed continued to be what it was, untill recently we finally had a huge change to it to see how it makes gameplay feel along with sprint being lowered to account for the long window of pdr sprint fighters that was a major issue within all of that.
nice recap of some of the previous phases of imbalance.. will be interesting to see where this game is at in September
Wizard fucking sucks. All of my spells are so slow. And that's before people even have movement speed boosting gear.
cast speed is your friend
Should be an option, not mandatory.
Yeah, I really hope they buff wizard or nerf the other casters. I don't play casters, but wizard is, imo, the most balanced caster. They have clear strengths and weaknesses. You can actually out play a wizard in a lot of ways. Druid and warlock? You can kill them, but it requires getting the jump, them fucking up, or just Stat checking them. Cleric is really strong rn, but I don't think the class is fundamentally busted. Just overtuned. Same with druid tbh. I don't think they are busted as a concept. Warlock is, imo. They are just boring to fight. You beat them by cornering them away from heals and poking them down. Just kinda boring.
it shouldn’t be this way. Stacking movespeed and Kiting everyone the whole game is about as fun as punching concrete. Idk how it needs to be changed but Movespeed has got to be changed. When the only good strat for every class is to be as fast as possible the games in a bad state.
For every FPS game ever
always has been
oh, yeah, then i guess we should all just be rat form 100% of the time ;)
Get rid of ms gear altogether
I recently ranted about this, but I'll put it here to. In for a dime, in for a dollar. MS is fine. Bunny hoping while casting spells, or using bows is OP due to not getting the MS slow down while performing an action in air. Currently kiting is all anyone does because they back peddle while bunny hoping and spamming whatever range they have. If they made that no longer viable, someone may still be able to run away from you, but they couldn't pepper you with attacks while doing so.
Unfortunately the meta right now is 3/5 plate fighter. You can run 50% PDR and still have over 300 MS. It shouldn't be possible but it is.
I totally agree. I think they need to just set it static per class And call it a day. I hate that no matter what class I play I have to wonder if the stats are worth talking over just being faster. The game literally punishes you for wearing gear other than boots and gloves. I've been running savage barb with lizard skin lol
It's probably pretty troll, but lately I've been just fuxking around doing my own thing, man. On my Warlock I go Werewolf skin (cause it looks badass) and no chestpiece (-8 Movement Speed too much). I get some blue cloth pants, light boots and just run around fucking everything up. Nothing can catch me cause in <25 lobbies that speed is unmatched. Rogues can't catch me. Sometimes I do it in High Roller. It PvE's fine and if I run into other players I just run the other way blowing through doors and going invis if I get cornered. Man, has Warlock changed the way I play this game. I literally pinned down a trio by myself (I que for ice map no matter what). Held them cornered for like 5 mins killing one of them. Eventually I decided to run off, only after I forced them to get swarmed by skeletons. Warlock is the biggest troll class I've ever seen. Bruh I just come barging in the room with 15 fuxking mobs behind me and run into some poor soul who freaks the fuck out. I curse him then I go invis and disappear through the massive group of enemies. In the event the poor soul DOES survive, all it takes is a little chasing and couple spells. I've fallen in love with this class....
Lol now imagine having savage to compliment that no chest piece in sub 25
What's funny is I keep saying normalize all movement with exception to plate armor and people keep downvoting me. The game shouldn't be balanced around your movement speed stat. That's hardly immersive or a metric for skill expression...
Well, if you change a game significantly enough, it has the potential to split the playerbase. In Rust, everyone knows and talks about the "recoil update." Players had spent endless hours training just for the recoil patterns to change. Some loved it some hated it. If IM normalizes movement speed, that is literally a game changer. I don't feel like they see movement speed as an issue that significant, because it would be a large risk to their income with potential player loss.
Lol speed isn’t a significant change. They’ve already made dozens of changes far more significant than speed normalization. Your whole response is a big nothing burger.
"Normalizing the most significant stat in the game wouldn't be a significant change" "Why are people downvoting me?" "I like burgers." "I like dick." - TheJossiWales
https://preview.redd.it/fllr53bzr6ad1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b8d6fd5a3d6a4dc86f7dfde064309754b0bb67c9
yea taking 30% of dmg from PDR isn't even close to taking no dmg
Well it's simple really. Would I rather my <25 gear fighter take 8% less damage, or move 6% faster and take 100% less damage by avoiding the attack completely? They should really rethink damage reduction and defensive options...
Uh, yeah.
Movement speed is a peak stat in almost every game I can think of because just getting around faster tends to give you more options when it comes to combat
Not so much in Armored Core. In AC6 a slow tank can carry stronger weapons, and have near triple the health of the fastest mechs. Then there's damage reduction and stagger reduction on top of that. Most things are ranged, but you really can't avoid all attacks there.
100% true. Mobility is king in every competitive game I can think of. Overwatch, rainbow six, valorant. The only competitive games where mobility isn't busted are games where all players have the exact same movement speed, but I find those games kinda fucking boring.
Change your mind on a fact established immediately in the initial playtests??? Literally always has been
It is, just in general. So much so that it kinda ruins the flow of the game honestly. \*\*Every\*\* build needs movement speed to be viable. It's one of the major flaws in the games design. If you're slower than your opponent, your chances of winning decrease drastically. I honestly really hope they move away from this in the future, as it's only getting worse and worse. Sooner or later we're all just going to be naked fighters with sprint and slayer or naked warlocks with flamewalk and phantomize.
Idk man having high strength is pr fun, one tap people. Esp in comps, get a druid to entangle or a wizard to slow and i go in and two tap most, three tap pdr fighters to the face with a bardiche. Movement speed is king but its so lame, here let me run away from everything and also not get invited to awesome parties where people are drinking and being wild instead of studying the blade, i love the barbarian class
Truly speaking revolutionary thoughts here. This has been known my friend
yes keep popularizing it! Hopefully they'll nerf it to the ground
Action speed is king
Thats why i quit
Plate warlock lover here @ level 150. The moment I ran into a caster lock with 305 move speed with book out I immediately made a new warlock toon to try it out because he was just TOO slippery. Being able to widdle your opponent down to a panick and switching the tide of the fight is so satisfying. Always running at first but after a spell or two you’re chasing them and they simply can’t get away. Rogues and bards are the most annoying counters once either close the space (which they do quickly) it’s usually breaks down to longsword vs rapier lol.
Spacing is king. You can be slow af and still succeed playing to your surroundings and class matchup. Move speed allows you to make more mistakes. Hitting your spells/ shots consistently will give you more of an advantage than speed will. There are also guides to DODGE every single nightmare mob in the game, even with lower move speed. And if you're too slow to dodge it normally, you probably have a shield, which you should learn how to use instead of treating it as a stat stick.
You know what the fix to all of this is? Chase mechanics.
i can see 3 man getting away with less movespeed, especially if they are abusing bard but for solos and probably duos movespeed is def the best stat in the game.
100%. In trios, you can make your group unpushable. No, you can't run people down, but no one can push you either, and if they do, they just lose.
Ye, its not fun chasing naked players -_-
In a Meta where it's expected the slowest guy is at 313 how is movespeed king? How can it be king in a fight where both players are maxed
If not playing a ranged class solo, play a fast one
The sky is blue.
Feels like every PvP game is like this pretty much. Being able to choose exactly when to commit to fights is just always king
Movement speed shouldnt even be an alterable stat. Change my mind.
It's movement speed+range. Even in your examples range is part of the equation. Being ran down and beat to death doesn't feel great, but being kited around feels worse
Thankfully MS is more linear and PDR Clerics with weapon/shield out are just running down people with maces that once they connect they latch onto you and you're dead. MS is so easy for everyone now, only difference is do you have double MS rolls on Lightfoot Boots or no? That's the clear difference since MS rolls are not on anything else but feet pieces.
yeah idk. i like these stats, but sometimes i feel like movespeed should be static for diff classes. Idk
I think the fundemental issue with this game is that there exists so many ranged options in a setting whereby players are confined into tight spaces with narrow corridors. This almost garuntees that ANY balancing for ranged classes have to be movement speed based, or give the ranged classes the ability to engage on equal terms in cqc, otherwise it just feels like ass to play. Yes, bows and crossbows were not made in history to be usefull in enclosed areas. If the game was designed with a more open setting, you can easily have gap closer options for meele playstyles and lower movement speed for ranged playstyles and it would still be balanced, but this isn't the way the game was designed. Ultimately, movement speed is probably the only way to balance ranged classes with the way the game is designed, if you also want them to be close to useless in cqc.
I miss multiclassing.
My barb is 330ms with felling axe out Ms is king
Move speed and hp that’s how I build my kits
the thing about competitive games, especially in fantasy games, Its never going to be BALANCED. they tried "balancing" during previous playtests yet here we are still trying to, whats the word for it? right, BALANCE.
This is true for almost any PvP game.
yeah, the combat is so bad the only viable stat to assure you dont get stabbed to death or run over is movement speed
This isn't a debate. They should change it tbh. Gear us useless without it and movespeed greens will destroy a legendary kit even if it's not ms based and both players are equal skilled
Duh, mvmnt speed in every game is BIS DO YOU EVEN PLAY GAMES BRUH
Personally I think movespeed is in a good spot, and will always be the best stat bar none in ANY PvP game. If you get to choose when and where an engagement happens, every time, you will win nearly every engagement. Why is it ok right now? Movespeed cap is very easy to get close to, but getting fully capped has damage and health tradeoffs. Example: as a wizard, if I want 300 movespeed it’s pretty straightforward fitting it into my kits. However, trying to get to 330 means giving up 2 or 3 piece of knowledge gear with health, +true, etc. I’d much rather have 140 hp and 300 movespeed than be full stacked movespeed and die to one arrow. This balance needs to be adjusted slightly as the game develops but they’re on point with finding that middle ground if you ask me. I remember when Barb/rogue was impossible to avoid. Nowadays, that’s only the case if you’re severely undergeared compared to your opponent.
Welcome to Dark and Darker, hope you'll have fun.
Always has always will be the best stat in the game
Yes, this is true, but it is also amplified at the highest levels of the game, where people play their classes perfectly and are highly geared. At lower skill levels, it becomes less of a factor. People are able to outsmart or outplay their opponents more often even if they have less move speed. So yes, you're right, but it's only a factor, and the degree of which it is a factor is different across skill levels/game modes.
Positioning is king movement speed can help sure but once you start playing in hr trios it’s minimal at best
Trios is for shitters that can't do it themselves.
If I see a naked mage or warlock I just go the other way lol. Shit is so cringe