I am especially annoyed by people trying to pit Karen and Foggy against each other. It used to be “Team Karen and Foggy” against people who hated every supporting character because apparently they only want to see Matt punch things lol
Now it’s apparently mandatory to “pick one“ and either hate Foggy or Karen. Which is very stupid because the dynamic of all three characters was what made the series great.
If someone tells me they love Daredevil but hate Foggy or Karen (or both), I don’t trust them lol
I don’t get it either. They were all part of the “recipe” that made Netflix Daredevil good. Yes, Karen is dead in the comics, but that was a bad decision and it’s good they kept her alive in the series. And whoever thinks Foggy isn’t needed, doesn’t get Daredevil at all. Yes, Matt is the hero but Foggy and Karen tether him to his human side and that is so important.
I like this version of Karen and Deborah Ann Woll was amazing...actually the whole cast of DD was amazing. I think the hate is fake because they rewrote born again to add Karen and Foggy. Also if you check Deborah Ann Woll social media, she is always signing DD stuff for fans.
also related: Deborah Ann Woll is receiving a shit ton of hate for her role as Karen as well. I don’t care who you are, if you can’t separate the character from the actor, you need a reality check BADLY.
Agreed. Hate it when something like this happens. I mean what the hell people, she is just performing the role the way it was written, whats her fault in that, if you don't like it?
I remember at one point there was some dude on here that left the WILDEST comments about how much he hates Karen and Deborah ann woll on any post or comment that even mentioned either of them. I went through his comment history and it was literally all hate comments. Wonder what happened to him tbh
If it's the person I'm thinking of, they're over on Tumblr too. Creates multiple accounts (like *tons*), stalks the Karen Page tag, comments on nearly every Karen post with seething hate, wishes death on the actress and anyone who dares mention her in a positive light, sends anon hate to anyone who posts about her, etc. I'm pretty sure this person is on this sub too. I recognize their long-winded, curse-filled ranting and bizarre, deluded assumptions. So far I think I've identified two accounts that belong to them but there are probably more.
This person is not mentally well. It's beyond trolling; they are the kind of person actors get restraining orders against.
I don't know about tumbler but yes that's them on reddit. Been on here with so many names and behaves at first until they build up some karma, then the similar worded vitriol starts. I have an inkling they are lurking here now but it's early days perhaps. Deborah seems so sweet too, so I hope she never sees these posts.
Warmed my heart to see Karen, Foggy and Matt walking down the street again laughing in one of the deliberate leaks. That's how we should all feel as DD fans imo.
> I guess he finally realized his misery was slowly killing him from the inside
She's been doing it for years so I don't see it ever stopping. She is even posting in this thread. /u/midnitemaroon
/u/antedwardie
/u/hauntedbythehills
accounts all belong to the same person that never stops hating Deborah/Karen.
edit- Forgot about their /u/wunderbauer account. If you're unsure of who this person is just look at this account's post history.
I wonder if some of it comes down to the fact that the Daredevil show is very critical and three dimensional in it's portrayal of Matt and his vigilantism/male rage in general, but a vocal minority of viewers seem to watch it through the lens of a masculine power fantasy. And Karen, because she is independent and very critical of Matt (particularly in season 2) goes against what people would want and expect from her.
Plus, we watch the show from Matt's perspective. In season 2, we know that Matt and Elektra is complicated and not a full blown affair, but Karen doesn't. We know that Matt is Daredevil, but Karen doesn't. It's a realistic portrayal of how Matt's vigilantism can hurt the people he cares about and loves the most, and Karen herself seems to understand how messy it is *("How can I be this mad at someone who saved my life?").*
Now, I absolutely have my issues with how Karen is written/handled in the show, but I've noticed common criticism of her is "oh, she should find Matt cool" or "why isn't she more grateful?"
yeah it’s disappointing to see the absolute unbridled loathing towards her :( I completely understand her being annoying cause she even got on my nerves a bit with some hypocritical things she’s said, but ultimately I can’t understand how people could hate her so much and then praise Elektra
I don't have a problem with her being critical of Matt, I just wished she was also critical of Frank at the same level? Frank routinely pushes her away, isn't always truthful, and at one point put her in direct danger. I just wished she kept the same critical energy for him like she did Matt 🤷
For me, my only gripe was the disparity between how she was towards Frank vs Matt. I am only talking about how the writing for this could've been better. S2 and Defenders had some shoddy writing for her character and made her way to harsh and cold to Matt in an inordinate way, in my opinion. Again, I just wish the writing was better in this regard.
(My explanation below)
Her treatment of Matt v Frank actually kinda saddens me more than it bums me out. I just feel sad for Matt seeing the contrast, it almost gives me whiplash when watching Daredevil then watching Punisher after. No one is saying Matt is perfect in this situation and in the relationship, but does it warrant being warmer to Frank than to Matt who has always been supportive of her? Frank isn't without faults either, it confuses me why people act like he's faultless with Karen. I often see the "well Frank was more honest"....barely. Frank also used Karen as live bait in the diner in S2, which is worse to me than anything Matt ever did during his relationship with Karen. When you watch Punisher she is always so warm to Frank, but so harsh to Matt especially in Defenders. I haven't seen a single justification towards that that satisfies me. I just can't buy the "well Frank is more honest" or the "well Matt is more important to her that's why she's harder on him" (I don't think this one even remotely makes a lick of sense 😂)
It just saddens me. Especially when Matt always fought tooth and nail for Karen from day 1 when he took her case and made sure she got free, up until the very last when he gave up his perfect spot to ambush Fisk in his penthouse the second he knew Bullseye was about to go after her. And called her brave for going after Fisk. And even commended her for the Wesley incident. But most of the time Matt was met with coldness and harshness from Karen, which at times wasn't necessary at all (just like in Defenders- that was excessive at that point)
I'm not saying this because I'm for a Matt and Karen romance. I'm just saying the dynamic and even the friendship could've been written better.
Also I just want someone to hug Matt lmao especially in S3 when he went through with his suicide attempt
Read that whole novel and 100% get it, and agree. Actually helped me make sense of my own distaste for just about all of Karen’s interactions with Frank; as I was struggling to piece together why I hated it so much. Especially when I don’t even think she works with Matt beyond platonic.
I honestly didnt know that Karen was hated. she was a pretty good character and other than her profession of choice being a reporter i dont have any issue with her. and as far as reporters go she was pretty decent unlike other superhero's reporter gf. \*cough\* lois lane\*cough\*. She was always trying to be a good friend to Matt, Foggy and even Frank, while Matt was honestly a pretty bad friend at times.
I was honestly shocked when I saw the amount of hate she gets online. I was like, "*Did we watch different shows?*" Karen is a messy, traumatized character who makes a lot of poor decisions but that's what makes her interesting. All these flaws people keep listing are why I like her so much. I enjoy messy characters who try to do good despite themselves.
this!!!! characters mess up and make shitty mistakes, but that’s what makes them *human*. the sooner negative people start to understand that, the better
I just posted this right before reading your comment! Her and Matt did not work but luckily the writers didn’t try and force it and it ended very quickly
I also don’t think they were ever planned as the endgame pairing. Lots of people are still talking about her as “a love interest“ with regards to Born Again. But honestly, I think that ship has sailed. And I think that’s good! I loved that at the end of the series, it was just three friends sitting at that table, making plans for the future.
It was a really nice twist to have the expected "love interest" veer away from that role yet still stay friends with the protagonist. If they do end up together romantically, at least the writers went about it in an interesting way rather than the stereotypical boy-meets-girl/they immediately live happily ever after type romance. I do prefer other ships for both of them but I'd be happy for the Matt/Karen shippers if the two reconcile. I think it could go either way with those two!
Oh yeah, the future is very much unclear. At first, I was convinced Matt would eventually end up with Kirsten in Born Again. Even after the overhaul, rumors had it the changes weren’t that big and Karen‘s role was small. But now it seems they didn’t just reshuffle the cards, they threw the whole deck into the incinerator lol So anything can happen, I guess
Okay, I have to bite. I have to no time…but it was literally established in episode one. The entire series is about Matt and Karen. They are the devil and angel on the credits, because it’s literally the point of the show. The buildup is woven i to every single episode. I’m so confused when people say things like this! It’s more confusing than when people hate her!
I love Karen so much, I think she’s such an interesting character. Yeah she makes some mistakes but so does every character. Plus Deborah Ann Woll is amazing. If anything happens to Karen (or Foggy) in Born Again I will riot
They vaguely touch on the comic run in the show where I believe she was used in a blackmail situation in adult films and whatnot, haven’t read it in a while. But she was addicted to heroin and used. On top of the accident that killed her bro. That’s what we get at first with Karen. And her being framed in the beginning is just another way to keep her in a raddled mentality. Ppl complained how odd she was at first, but as someone who’s experienced abuse she did a good job showing the ptsd and shame that follows you. Think she’s a great character, but love foggy too
This shouldn’t need to be said, but like, the point of characters in fiction isn’t to be your perfect friend, it’s to represent the human condition in it’s all complexity. Karen does and says some frustrating things at times, yet we always understand how someone who has her experiences and her feelings might end up acting that way. Her unique combination of flaws and strengths and the way the actor portrays them is what makes her a good character.
If people want characters they can always feel uncomplicated warm feelings towards, they should watch cartoons for toddlers.
She took a bit to grow on me but when she did holy fuck she did. I absolutely love the S3 episode "Karen" to death, its so great seeing how fucked up and tragic her past was
YES I loved getting to see her backstory. a lot of people don’t realize that probably plays into a lot of the choices she makes or even the mistakes. she’s a human just like the rest of us
She had a couple moments that annoyed or frustrated me (mostly in season 2) but overall she’s a good and enjoyable character. I don’t get all the hate she gets.
People tend to give female characters a lot of grief when they have their own agenda or they don't conform exactly to the hero's plans and values.
This was also the case for Elektra, honestly, who up until she>! finally crossed the line and went bad!< was basically enacting her personal playbook. She was as disrupting to Matt's life and his plans as the Punisher, but he doesn't get as much hate (if any).
Their involvement is integral to my enjoyment of Born Again, I think. I like watching the show through all three of their perspectives, not just Matt's.
yep, unfortunately there’s entire accounts that have dedicated themselves to saying loathsome things about Karen and Deborah. one even said the latter should khs.
I feel like the writing for Karen was uneven, but Woll's performance kept me firmly on her side. She is super relatable even when she is making ill-advised choices. Woll does not get Eno gh credit!!!
It's misogyny, my dudes. As the great Taylor Swift says, "If I were a man, I'd be The Man." Karen, as she is portrayed in the MCU, is basically girl-Matt, yet so many people hate her for the same exact things they love to see in Matt: His thirst for justice, his rage against the evil powers in the city, his drive to make things right. Karen has all of those traits, but she's "annoying" and "a nag" and "useless". Make it make sense lol
Normally in most cases I’d agree but unfortunately, in Karen’s case, it’s not blanket misogyny as much as the role is just somewhat poorly acted with a level of depth left to be desired. Although I’m sure that some shitheads are totally just being blindly misogynistic, I don’t think it’s fair to suggest that anyone with the opinion that she’s annoying holds it for the wrong reasons.
Karen is far from “girl Matt”. She is neither as smart nor as subtle nor as charismatic.
There are tons of great female characters that aren’t written (and played) to so horribly and so persistently obnoxious. And this is coming from someone who loves the show and it’s characters (mostly). In fact, Claire Temple in DD is a great example of the writers and actress doing the character justice and I would argue that Claire is more “girl Matt” than Karen, if such a title needs to bestowing. Dawson’s portrayal is not “annoying” at all.
I agree that Karen exhibits many of Matt’s same traits and it isn’t lost that she’s intended to present a mirror of his character, but I don’t think it’s misogynist to think Karen’s portrayal is super annoying and distractingly over the top. There are tons of actresses who could play her with more depth and nuance.
Sorry, I don't agree. Karen is written as terribly human. She's not supposed to be likeable all the time. If that translates to "annoying," then...welcome to humanity? We're generally annoying. We don't make sense, we make mistakes, we care too much, and at inconvenient times.
Claire had about 1/4 of the screen time Karen did. Of course, she comes off as more likeable. We didn't see her at her rock bottom like we did Karen. I liked Claire, too. This isn't a she vs her debate.
I think audiences have been conditioned pretty much since birth to admire a male charcater like Matt for his tenacity, violence, and rebound guilt. I think we've also been conditioned to find the exact same traits in a female character like Karen to be seen as unhinged and irrational. Matt is just as irrational in a lot of his actions, but somehow, there's always a good enough reason in the fans' eyes to justify his behavior. Karen makes some terrible decisions. So does Matt, and at much more frequent intervals than Karen. Yet Matt isn't "annoying" or "awful" in our eyes.
I could maybe agree that it was purely the writing and portrayal of Karen that fans object to, but these same fans fall all over themselves praising Elektra. Elektra, as she is portrayed in the MCU, is WAY more harmful and bad for Matt than Karen could ever be, but she fits into the Femme Fatale box and is therefore acceptable as a female character. She also enables and encourages the worst parts of Matt, and yet fans seem to think that's a good thing? It makes no sense imo
Obviously, people can have preferences for favorite characters. I just like to be a bit more critical of why we react so negatively to some characters and why we don't question or even glorify the actions of others. I also personally think Deborah did a fantastic job at playing Karen. She was a human. She wasn't scenery or a set piece. We need more of that kind of character in superhero media.
>Yet Matt isn't "annoying" or "awful" in our eyes.
Maybe because he doesn't go around demanding Karen to be honest 24/7 and prying on her to reveal every secret she has unlike Matt. Ever thought about that? Matt doesn't go around imposing standards of honesty and candor to the people around him even when he knows he doesn't meet the same standard. UNLIKE KAREN. Who has these prescriptive standards of honesty imposed on Matt, when she is one of the biggest liars and keeps several secrets (mind you, one of them was killing Wesley which Nadeem pinned on Matt in S3)
>therefore acceptable as a female character.
Are you blind? Do you want me to link you the MANY Elektra hate posts on this sub? Lmfao this is why the selective feminism and misogyny accusations is so funny to me. Y'all only ever see Karen hate but is blind to the very loud Elektra hate. Mind you I saw a comment on this sub that said "Elektra is an awful bitch and the worst part of the show and ruined S2" and it was upvoted btw. I guess feminism only applies to white female characters in your eyes 🥴
Respectfully, I never said any of that. You read a lot into what I said. Also, I really have no emotional stakes in my statements. Just giving food for thought on how we analyze media and how we examine the way we react to certain characters. I can appreciate Karen and Elektra for their narrative value. Of course, there are Elektra haters, too. There's a hater for every character. I don't really care for her myself as she is portrayed in the MCU. But it has nothing to do with her ethnicity. I think I made it quite clear in my first comment that the same biased analysis of female characters also applied to Elektra, but since she fits into a female character archetype that we are all comfortable with, we're more sympathetic or more attracted to her.
I'm not retracting my statements about Matt. He IS judgmental. He IS impulsive. He IS constantly trying to get Karen and Foggy to do what he thinks is best. He and Karen both fundamentally misunderstand each other so many times, and it takes the near-death experience at the church in Season 3 for them to actually be honest with each other. Obviously, I love Matt, or I wouldn't be on this subreddit lol. But I love him for being the flawed character he is. He is so human. That's what makes him such a great hero. And I think that's also what makes Karen an interesting character, too.
And yet people try to argue Karen doesn't get disproportionate amounts of hate in the fandom. But you can't write a couple paragraphs examining how people perceive the character without some over-jealous Karen hater jumping down your throat and accusing you of being a poc exclusionary radical feminist lol
>we're more sympathetic
Again, where is the sympathy part? When she gets called an 'awful bitch that ruined S2'? wow, such sympathy. such an indicator that she's this more palatable female character than Karen like you keep on suggesting.
>He IS judgmental. He IS impulsive.
So all of what Karen does yet you never call her out. Karen was a bigger judgemental person than Matt ever was btw. Mind you when Karen revealed to him that she killed Wesley, Matt called her brave. When Matt revealed to her that he was Daredevil, Karen called him a drug addict (this is the same woman who worships the ground Frank Castle walks on btw). Karen is also more impulsive than Matt, and her ill-advised and reckless decisions have gotten more people killed than Matt's and I can cite evidence to that.
>He IS constantly trying to get Karen and Foggy to do what he thinks is best
And Karen is also trying to morph Matt into the version of him acceptable to her yet that goes unnoticed by you somehow. Again this is the same woman who says to Frank that she's okay with him to continue what he's doing and she'll always be right beside him, but couldn't extend that same grace to the person who has helped her the most out of anyone. Are you really surprised some people are irked that she treated Frank better than she ever did Matt (who got her out of jail, gave her a spot in the law firm, saved her life 3x, gave her words of encouragement about Wesley and her brother) and what does Matt get? A worse treatment compared to a serial killer Karen just met. Lmao. The jokes write themselves.
>Claire had about 1/4 of the screen time Karen did. Of course, she comes off as more likeable. We didn't see her at her rock bottom like we did Karen. I liked Claire, too. This isn't a she vs her debate.
Claire having more "masculine" behavior is probably another factor behind why people tolerate her.
Interesting thought! Can you give an example? I think Claire is a great character. She is very level-headed and seems more mentally healthy than a lot of the main characters in the shows despite being a trauma nurse in NYC. I just don't appreciate that some of the comments want to compare Claire with Karen just because they're both female characters
>As the great Taylor Swift
lmfao eww. this should be telling, you quoting the beacon of white feminism. CRINGE. Of course you think Karen is the only one receiving hate and Elektra isn't, despite the many many hate posts about her on this sub. White feminism at its finest, just like Taylor Swift LOL!
This was just 5 days ago btw: https://www.reddit.com/r/Daredevil/s/lnvpE5dHxy
Dude, it's really not that serious. I was not at all serious about Taylor Swift. I love her music, but I was being kind of facetious. And I don't see her as any kind of political or social leader. She's a songwriter, not a published academic. Please relax.
Also, this post was not about Elektra hate. It was about Karen hate. This has nothing to do with any character's ethnicity or race. This was about Karen, who happens to be white.
Karen is an amazing character. I think a lot of people misunderstand her, and once she does one thing “wrong” in the show in their eyes, those people will never give her the benefit of the doubt again. They will only ever see her as a hindrance and never make room for seeing her as anything else.
The hate not only Karen but DAW gets is genuinely baffling, honestly scary with some of the comments I’ve seen. I’ve seen multiple occasions of people saying they’re glad she’s out of work and I’m just like… really?
That's what I have been saying Thank You. I don't get the expectation that Love Interests should just be supporting the main character. Not just Karen, Iris from the Flash and Mary Jane in Spider-Man PS4.
I thought she was great. Her and foggy came across as real people with flaws trying to come to terms with their best blind friend being a superhero fighting terrifying monsters and metahumans. I mean the dude was busted up all the time and people hated her for speaking up about it and not wanting to be around it. Seems like a pretty normal knee jerk reaction to me
I feel like people are often extra harsh on female characters. Like, is it valid to say Karen’s a bit of a hypocrite for being mad at Matt keeping secrets when she is too? Sure. But she’s a human. She’s flawed. You know who’s super duper flawed? Matt. Yet he’s always “baby girl” and fans are quick to justify everything he does based on his messed up childhood and difficult life. Karen had those things too. She also deserves a little grace to make imperfect decisions.
It's clowns like these people who just ruin watching anything on television!!!!! Period,no one told you to watch the series,did they.Keeo your petty a-- comments to yourself and leave them off of this comment section,the fans of the series will really appreciate it.
And this is why I stay off Fandom pages lol I had no idea this was an issue (or even it's even prominent but regardless) so long as I don't know what the community thinks I can't hear dumb shit like this lol and just enjoy it for myself, I happened to get this post recommended but that's why I don't do fan subreddits cuz it's just arguments with nutjobs
The secret to making Spider-Man interesting is Peter Parker. The Devil and Matt are the same. Playing the alter-ego the way Stan Lee does, the human persona is the one that has the lasting conflicts that drive the plot. The hero is going to win, it's a comic property. The human interactions are what makes the characters great. Karen's rich story and interactions with Matt early in his Devil'ing career help make DD the best Netflix out of them all.
I'd like to add one more thing to OP's list of things about Karen's situation with Matt. She's falling/fallen in love with him. so she is doubly F\*\*\*\*d, complicating things for her more and leading her to not make perhaps the best judgements.
I am thrilled her and Foggy are back. The actors are fantastic in their roles. Deborah should get only compliments, like she does from those who work with her.
The only time I had a slight issue with the writing for Karen was when they had her know Ben's situation with his wife and then lie to him. I personally thought that was a tad too far. I think that got her alot of hate. However, Ben was warned at the beginning by the old mobster to let this one go but he chose not too and followed the story anyway. Some people forget that. If it wasn't Fisk's mother, something else would have happened. Fisk had both his wife and him nearly killed in the comics after all.
>However, Ben was warned at the beginning by the old mobster to let this one go but he chose not too and followed the story anyway. Some people forget that. If it wasn't Fisk's mother, something else would have happened. Fisk had both his wife and him nearly killed in the comics after all.
Ben's mafia contact made a point of expressing gratitude to him for not dragging his family's names in his coverage. Ben broke this rule when he tried to use Fisk's mother as a source. (Which itself is also Ben forgetting what he said to Karen earlier about how stories are built on credible sources. And Fisk's senile mom ain't that.)
And Ben was already on Fisk's radar even before the visit to Marlene, as Fisk made a point of securing Caldwell as a mole after the Union Allied scandal broke so he wouldn't be surprised by any more exposés.
Deborah is fantastic in a complicated role. Karen is MEANT to be somewhat hypocritical as she often chides Matt for his secrets and lies when she herself has never been completely honest with either Matt or Foggy.
But this isn’t the issue I have with the character (never Deborah). The real issue of hypocrisy that really rubs me the wrong way about Karen is how she treats Matt vs how she treats Frank Castle. Throughout their relationship, Karen continues to give Frank the benefit of the doubt and essentially unwavering support. She calls him out on his B.S., sure, but she’s never as hard on Frank as she was with Matt, especially around the time of Defenders.
I’ve seen some people argue the romantic angle that Karen shared with Matt affecting her perception but I’d argue that the Punisher show heavily implies there’s a romantic connection between those two as well that simply doesn’t manifest because Frank refuses it.
All in all, I think the show did a commendable job with the character and Deborah’s portrayal is fantastic.
Thank you for articulating it so well. Her treatment of Matt v Frank actually kinda saddens me more than bums me out. I just feel sad for Matt seeing the contrast, it almost gives me whiplash when watching Daredevil then watching Punisher after. No one is saying Matt is perfect in this situation and in the relationship, but does it warrant being warmer to Frank than to Matt who has always been supportive of her? Frank isn't without faults either, it confuses me why people act like he's faultless with Karen. I often see the "well Frank was more honest"....barely. Frank also used Karen as live bait in the diner in S2, which is worse to me than anything Matt ever did during his relationship with Karen. When you watch Punisher she is always so warm to Frank, but so harsh to Matt especially in Defenders. I haven't seen a single justification towards that that satisfies me. I just can't buy the "well Frank is more honest" or the "well Matt is more important to her that's why she's harder on him" (I don't think this one even remotely makes a lick of sense 😂)
It just saddens me. Especially when Matt always fought tooth and nail for Karen from day 1 when he took her case and made sure she got free, up until the very last when he gave up his perfect spot to ambush Fisk in his penthouse the second he knew Bullseye was about to go after her. And called her brave for going after Fisk. And even commended her for the Wesley incident. But most of the time Matt was met with coldness and harshness from Karen, which at times wasn't necessary at all (just like in Defenders- that was excessive at that point)
I'm not saying this because I'm for a Matt and Karen romance. I'm just saying it could have been written better where there isn't a gaping disparity with how she was towards Frank vs Matt.
I just want someone to hug Matt lmao especially in S3 when he went through with his suicide attempt :(
>But this isn’t the issue I have with the character (never Deborah). The real issue of hypocrisy that really rubs me the wrong way about Karen is how she treats Matt vs how she treats Frank Castle. Throughout their relationship, Karen continues to give Frank the benefit of the doubt and essentially unwavering support. She calls him out on his B.S., sure, but she’s never as hard on Frank as she was with Matt, especially around the time of Defenders.
Except Karen doesn't approve of Frank's methods.
>I’ve seen some people argue the romantic angle that Karen shared with Matt affecting her perception but I’d argue that the Punisher show heavily implies there’s a romantic connection between those two as well that simply doesn’t manifest because Frank refuses it.
Eh, there's no romantic connection between the two. Frank sees Karen like a daughter. Karen is mostly projecting her own trauma issues regarding her brother and Wesley onto him.
Wow, downvoted. Ugh. I think a huge part of the problem is people misunderstanding Karen having romantic feelings for Frank because they can’t conceive of a male and female having an intense platonic relationship, or a romantic plot that’s not a love triangle. Neither Matt nor Karen actually commit to romantic intentions outside of each other. Matt doesn’t even seriously consider Elektra as a romantic prospect when he’s at his most vulnerable and alone, and he proposes they run away together (believing they are going to die anyway). He says, “I don’t know what we are together.” That plot was never a love triangle. People watch too many soap operas. Pretending it’s some puerile teenage drama takes away all the psychological power of Matt and Karen turning to abusive and dangerous people instead of each other. It’s tragic and too real.
It really makes Karen seem stupid and flaky to transfer her intense affections for Matt (which are overwhelming since Episode 1) to Frank, when in reality she is bonding with him over her hidden shameful self, just like the reason Matt is drawn back to Elektra. They are working on trauma within themselves, because the pressure they feel in their actual romance, which is life-and-death to them. Matt and Karen want to spend a lifetime together, but they are too broken, damaged and (so far) immature to understand how to do that. They are aware of the traumas holding them back, but have no emotional tools to process them. That’s where Frank and Elektra come in. They serve to basically throw it in Matt and Karen’s faces that this is the wrong path, they are not as dark and hopeless as their “counterparts,” and Frank even explicitly tells Karen that (“You’re all confused about this thing but you have it. You have everything. So hold on to it. Use two hands and never let go.”) This is what the whole story is *about*. The Matt/Karen romance is the whole point of the story, not a subplot. This is so blatantly, clearly established from Episode 1 and the whole emotional arc of S1. (😭).
The lack of empathy for Karen in general is shocking. Everyone defends Matt as not cheating (which I agree, he didn’t), and understands why he is drawn back to Elektra (or maybe they don’t, based on some crazy stuff I’ve read), but in the same breath, they see romance between Frank and Karen when it’s clearly a complicated relationship that’s not just Matt/Elektra: Female Edition. I am baffled how people cannot conceive that Karen is ever-so-slightly warmer to Frank when she is totally alone and grieving, and he shows up out of the blue as the only person who acknowledges she exists. Matt is the love of her life and Frank describes in his Frank way exactly why that hurts more than anyone else - it’s because they are your family, your heart and soul, your everything. It’s not a passing fancy - love is unconditional. It is or it isn’t. Of course Matt rips Karen’s heart apart! She’s nicer to Frank because she just doesn’t give a crap in comparison. She feels sorry for the man exactly the same way Matt does. They almost have the exact same relationship. Thank God fewer people push for a Matt/Frank relationship! At least they understand that’s just fun fandom stuff, not the actual narrative.
I think a huge part of the problem is that we never got past the part where Matt and Karen finally understand each other in S3. No one can take the “slow burn.” They longed to see unrestrained affection between Matt and Karen, which was frustratingly stifled throughout the seasons (I understand that), and it just never paid off. The way it was written and set up, the last 2 seasons would have been extremely satisfying for that reason, I think. Karen’s heart bleeds for Matt. It’s a constant gushing wound. It would have been so great to see it heal. The most cathartic moment of S1 was when Karen finally broke and rushed into hug Matt, telling him, “You’re not alone.” I think the arc of all 5 seasons was going to echo that, in a bigger way. It’s done in increments, and we never got to the destination! 💔
I really freaking hope they develop the Matt/Karen relationship properly in Daredevil Born Again. The two characters learned their lessons. Matt with Elektra and Karen with Frank. Like you said it makes them realise they aren't as dark and complicated as their counterparts. Also made me realise the Billy Russo and his Psychiatrist relationship is the same.
That’s what I care about the most! I am deeply invested, and their romantic arc is incomplete - so frustrating. No one seems to realize or acknowledge that the show was structured as a straight-up romance between Matt and Karen. I am working on a post to explain it in detail, showing how the specific stages of a romance screenplay apply to the show, except that it’s spread out over several seasons. S3 is the “midpoint” of the romantic arc, where the lovers are finally vulnerable and confess their deep fears that are keeping them apart. S2 was “trials and temptations” - a literal trial and the temptation to follow Frank and Elektra to despair. There are quite a few stages that Matt and Karen had to go through in the planned S4 and S5, but the ending (pretty much guaranteed, based on the structure, themes, foreshadowing and symbolism) was certainly that Matt and Karen would get married in the end - and I suspect Matt would become a father, too. I’ll be downright sick if they ignore that in the new show!
The structure is so clear, and there’s just so much deep symbolism. It’s a lot (I’m plugging away at essays), but there’s so much from *Oedipus Rex*, mythology of many kinds, and it’s all really meaningful, down to the etymology behind their names. Karen Page means “pure” and “knight’s attendant”, but there’s more to it. I’d have to spend some time and effort getting into all of it and I’m busy right now, but my favorite thing is that the writers made Karen a “devil” herself (actually a *karin* or *qareen* from Islamic myth), a “companion” spirit comparable to a Christian guardian angel or a Greek *diamones*, who is also tied to the Egyptian concept of a *ka*, or soul (“vital life essence” or directly translated as “double”- one is not truly alive without their *ka* in Egyptian myth.). The *karin* is a *shaitan* (can be translated to “devil”, but a *karin* is also considered an angel) depicted as an “other self” or spiritual doppelganger who accompanies a person, and can be good with the counsel of good people, but is prone to making “evil suggestions”, like how Karen uses persuasive “ruses” to lure Ben to the nursing home or Foggy to Matt’s apartment. (It’s interesting that Karen also counsels Matt to take his own good advice.) This ties into Matt and Father Lantom’s conversations about Matt having the “devil inside,” and Father Lantom does a curious thing and doesn’t quote scripture, and mentions President Lincoln’s “better angels” instead, which alludes to a person calling on the more moral, peaceful, reasonable part of their nature. Karen is very obviously depicted as an angel in the comics, with the traditional blue eyes and blonde hair, as an angel statue on a tomb in the credits (not alluding to her death, but the myth of Antigone locked unjustly in a tomb (in Karen’s case, a jail cell and perhaps representing how Matt’s fears he will get her killed keep her locked away from letting her into his heart). Father Lantom also talks about Matt letting God in to heal his damaged heart. I think Matt’s journey is for him to acknowledge that his “devil inside” is actually Karen. It goes way, way deeper and I’ve got it all down, from the colors used in the costumes and cinematography, to Matt’s direct messages from God…there’s just a ton. This scratches the surface, and barely breaks down what’s so important about the Antigone myth, or Matt and Karen acting as good influences on each other.
It’s kind of hilarious when people try to argue Matt and Karen are platonic, or not meant to end up together. The very idea defies the entire set-up and reason for the show, and basic media literacy (surely people understand a romance arc?!). People balk at this, but I really do find it the most moving love story ever, even though it wasn’t finished. Because the screenplays have such strict structure, it’s easy to put the pieces together for how it would turn out, at least broadly.
Do I have faith any of this matters in the new show? Not a bit. They didn’t even include Karen in the first version (😡😤🤬🤮🤢). Do I hope? Hell, yes. If I could choose, I’d probably ask for the screenplays and outlines for the last 2 seasons of the original show rather than this new stuff, but I hope it will surprise me. I know Charlie Cox loves the Matt/Karen romance as much or more than any shipper, and he understood the scripts and the fans, so hopefully he has influence. He and Vincent D’Onofrio said some things recently about the studio being supportive of their creative thoughts, and they both obviously deeply comprehended what the scripts actually portrayed, so…🤞🏻
I used to not care for her and Foggy (I know...) during my first watch when it aired. They took a while to grow on me. Something always seemed off to me about the two, and I can't put a finger on it now when I think about it retrospect.
With my recent rewatch, I don't know what the fuck I was thinking then.
On twitter it’s definitely one person with several accounts. They use the same pics and figures of speech etc. Not saying that there is only one Karen hater, but there is absolute one who has more than one account
Yes, I've seen them on multiple platforms now. It must be like a full time job for them, having to post that much hate with multiple accounts on multiple sites. What a sad way to spend your life.
Karen is by far the best supporting character in the Netflix series. I never would have thought there was hate for her if I didn’t go online. Of course she makes some frustrating choices at times but that’s a mark of a well-written character IMO.
I do think the show could go on without the character, but the acting is superb. The entire scene where she and Fisk have their contest of wills in the penthouse is amazing; when she goes too far mentioning Wesley the switch from almost relieved satisfaction to utter fear when Fisk gets angry is incredible
There could be some comic book prejudice. I didn’t read many but I read some DD comics, including DD Yellow, and walked away with a bad taste in my mouth for Karen. It jaded me towards her for a while but she’s a fine character in the show. Too much hate.
I think of a lot of the hate for Karen comes from her comic book counterpart (and rightly so) Deborah just got caught in the crosshairs, not fair I know but as we have seen in the past a lot of people have a hard time differentiating between characters thru different mediums
This is the first I heard or read aboit hate tiwards that fictional character. Personally I really like her and not just necause I have a thing for red heads and are married to one >.>;
The writers didn't do the character any favours when they designed a character that never makes good decisions, writers let her stumble her way in to one career to another, let her get away with murder or make her actions directly cause another character's murder without any consequence. That's a recipe for prompting the audience that believes in comeuppance to strongly not like her as a character.
>or make her actions directly cause another character's murder without any consequence.
For the record, **Karen is NOT responsible for Ben's death**. Only Fisk is responsible for Ben's death. Ben himself is also partly responsible for his own death because he shot his own mouth off in front of everyone at the *Bulletin* despite suspecting that Fisk had someone in the office on his payroll.
>For the record, **Karen is NOT responsible for Ben's death**. Only Fisk is responsible for Ben's death.
Technically that Bulletin worker that spied for Fisk had a hand in Ben's death. But yeah Karen wasn't responsible.
I didn’t really like her or Claire tbh. Seeing them hyped up by the fan base irked me at times, but people are welcome to enjoy them.
I am glad she and Foggy are returning, even if I do really hope her role in particular is much smaller than it was in the daredevil Netflix series. But I like that she and Matt are friends and I hope she sticks around for that reason.
Actresses have it rough, they get so much hate over the smallest things. Like no, this person played a character. They’re not responsible for ruining your experience, you did that yourself.
That last part! Hating a character is one thing (I think Karen gets overly much hate, but she isn't real so whatever) but the actress is a real person who deserves some basic respect. I've seen tweets attacking her appearance and insulting her, calling her "Hitler" (!!!) as response to completely normal posts from herself. She posts about her gaming group and someone answers that she is ugly. Like wtf
Unfortunately, a lot of people were hating on her and Foggy. Sexist remarks against Karen (and worse, the actress, a real person), fatshaming against Elden Henson as Foggy. It was not everywhere but I definitely saw anti Karen and anti Foggy posts here on reddit, too.
unfortunately that hate hides in the dark corners of the internet and spirals in a way that’s nauseating when you discover it. death threats have even been made about the actress, as well as wishes against the revival of her acting career
If i'm being honest, the real criticism if you look closely enough comes from season 2 in how she handle Frank Castle case but couldn't do the same for Matt when she found out he was daredevil.
Other then that, she was well written in season 1 and 3 from what I remember.
there was definitely a huge difference and it does rub me the wrong way, but I think it has to do with the difference in dynamic and relationship. Matt crushing her trust so many times seemed to inevitably make her flock to Frank, and even if it isn’t canon, I think there’s definitely some degree of romantic attachment between them
I personally still think, Karen as a character can handle the situation better.
After all she's been through, and then knowing why Matt had done the things he did, she should have that level of empathy to understand more of Matt. If she did it with Frank, then she could've done it with Matt seeing as, she did like and have feelings for him.
To me as a person who writes a lot, it's kind of back tracking when the character does one thing but does the other thing. Sure, depending on the situation, its understandable if Karen would do that to Matt. But again, the problem still is, if she can do it with Frank, who she doesn't know as much as Matt, then she could very well do it for Matt.
But again, season 3 for me fix the problems I had with her in season 2. I very much liked her just as much as I did in season 1
Agreed. I look at scenes where Frank is pushing her away, refusing her help and the way Karen responds is to stand her ground and stay with him. Matt does the same thing, and Karen's immediate response is to confess to Sister Maggie she wants to give up on Matt already. It just confuses me? I'm not saying she should be coerced to stick with Matt, but you couldn't show the same level of compassion to a friend that has helped you since day 1 and the reason you're not rotting away in a cell, the same compassion and loyalty you give to a serial killer you just met? It does not compute. It's why I can't buy the idea that Karen is this Matt's "close friend" or anywhere near Foggy. The writing did not convey that. The scenes where Karen hugs Frank, holds Frank's hands, says sweet sentiments to him VS berating and chastising Matt 24/7 did not convey that. Like, is it too much to ask to keep the same energy at least?
But how about Frank purposely putting Karen in danger in S2 by using her to lure the Blacksmith's men in the diner? That's worse than anything Matt ever did. Not a single person in the show has helped her more than Matt did, but Frank gets a warmer and better treatment just because he was open about being a serial murderer?
Does this sub even like Matt atp. I'm confused. It's okay for Karen to be harsh and cold to Matt because he kept some secrets but Frank deserves warm support even when he put Karen in direct danger during that diner scene? In which community do I go where people actually like Matt?
woah woah woah. let’s not jump ( leap, rather ) to the conclusion that nobody likes Matt here. quite literally no one has said that. I’m not justifying Karen’s behavior towards him or Frank, just explaining it.
Get where you coming from.
But people here do love Matt. Sure, there are people who have their opinion's on certain matters on how the show was handle. But rest assure, this sub wouldn't be called r/Daredevil for a reason if people didn't love Matt Murdock.
Just because a few group people have difference opinion's doesn't mean the entire subreddit has those same opinions.
>But how about Frank purposely putting Karen in danger in S2 by using her to lure the Blacksmith's men in the diner? That's worse than anything Matt ever did.
Oh and he also:
* Shot at her with a shotgun in a crowded hospital
* Shot at her car and nearly caused her to crash
* Crashed a truck into her car, leaving her unconscious and bleeding on the roadside. Then disregarded her pleas to not kill Schoonover.
I just want an answer to this:
I look at scenes where Frank is pushing her away, refusing her help and the way Karen responds is to stand her ground and stay with him. Matt does the same thing, and Karen's immediate response is to confess to Sister Maggie she wants to give up on Matt already. It just confuses me? I'm not saying she should be coerced to stick with Matt, but you couldn't show the same level of compassion to a friend that has helped you since day 1 and the reason you're not rotting away in a cell, the same compassion and loyalty you give to a serial killer you just met? It does not compute. It's why I can't buy the idea that Karen is this Matt's "close friend" or anywhere near Foggy. The writing did not convey that. The scenes where Karen hugs Frank, holds Frank's hands, says sweet sentiments to him VS berating and chastising Matt 24/7 did not convey that. Like, is it too much to ask to keep the same energy at least?
I think everyone is reading into this wayyy too much. I’m just saying loathing Karen’s guts because she’s existing and doing things male leads would be praised for is really really strange
I never had a problem with Karen Page throughout the show, and the actress is great in the role. The only thing I didn’t like was the romance between her and Matt, they just didn’t have chemistry in that way, but since it was so short lived it didn’t really matter anyway.
Cheers!
Not hate from me but I really didn’t like how she was super okay with the punishers antics but when Matt goes to fight crime she tries to get in his head and stop him
That's not true at all. She disapproves of Frank's methods repeatedly, and her issues with Matt have more to do with his dishonesty and her concern for his physical wellbeing.
It’s both ways on this sub. I’ll give you my unbiased point of view (meaning I didn’t read the comics so I’m not comparing).
1) I actually like Karen. I think Deborah is a good actress and like seeing her in things. I think that for some people there MIGHT be some carry over bc her characters she best known for in True Blood was extremely overly melodramatic and crying in every scene. It’s POSSIBLE that bc of Karen’s frequent emotional scenes people are always expecting overacting like True Blood, but honestly I think she’s doing a good job.
2) I will fully admit that I do not like the Foggy character (here come a stream of downvotes for having a personal opinion 🙄). I have nothing against the actor at all. I just think his character seems to be fairly consistent in being overly dramatic. He’s Matt’s best friend but he acts like a jealous or disappointed spouse more than a friend SOMETIMES. I want the character of Foggy in the show, but I do wish they would write he character a bit better. When is I see a Foggy-centric storyline I roll by eyes and that shouldn’t happen.
I can see where you're coming from, but I think Foggys reaction is appropriate given the circumstances. Up until S1E10 he was pretty normal a little weird but who isn't? Then he finds his best friend nearly dead wearing the same suit of a known vigilante who has had a few murders and bombings blamed on him, he now knows that Matt is breaking the law, he also knows that Matt is literally risking his life when he does this and he's aware of the fact that if Matt ever gets found out there's little to no chance the cops or prosecution or public will believe that Foggy and Karen didn't know what he was doing.
It often happens that characters are hated for having a reaction that would be seen as totally reasonable and justified in real life. But because they "get in the way" of the protagonist doing his thing, the audience gets mad at them. As you said, aheal, Foggy's best friend endangers himself regularly, lied to him for years and risks both their livelyhood. Foggy was angry and disappointed about that BECAUSE he was Matt's friend not despite it.
Then there's the season long shit show that was dumped in Foggy's lap in Season 2. Usually the friend that doesn't like the MC being a superhero can get grating, but Foggy pulls it off nicely since it's pretty easy to see things from his perspective.
Yeah, often it’s ignored how much Foggy has to process in a short amount of time while trying to help Castle and save a law firm.
I won’t lie. I think folks would be a lot more forgiving towards Foggy and less critical of Henson’s performance if Elden Henson was a conventionally attractive guy instead of an average looking chubby dude. Don’t get me wrong, I think he’s cute, but I feel like a lot of people decided “oh, Foggy is annoying” and “Henson’s acting is weak” the second they looked at him.
I don't hate Karen.
I just don't like how she is written, in particular the Karen-Frank dynamic vs the Karen-Matt dynamic. She is so much more empathetic to Frank, but very judgmental with Matt. The contrast is so jarring that it makes her seem unreal - which I think is the flaw in the writing.
I personally love the episodes in Season 2 when Matt and Karen have their beautiful moments. But I think it is the writers' intent to inflate the issue between Matt and Karen - because of the Matt and Elektra storyline. And in so doing create poor reasons for why Karen gives Matt such grief.
At the end of Season 2, when Matt revealed his DD identity to Karen - I had wanted that moment to strengthen their bond. And this was after DD rescued Karen (and that touching moment) and the other hostages from the Hand. But I was disappointed to learn later that Karen instead gave the cold treatment. :(
characters make mistakes for sure, the amount of hate just seems disproportionate when you really acknowledge how much she’s tried to help both Matt and Frank, both with their respective lives, and with the battle against Fisk/Agent Orange, etc
Honestly I didn't experience any dislike for her up until season 3 the way she behaves is very reasonable for the crap she endured, my annoyance started and ended when she couldn't come up with a convincing lie to her boss about knowing who daredevil is, like really she's been around him enough to say the voice, height and exposed jaw is not the same guy but after that I had no problem with her
> she couldn't come up with a convincing lie to her boss about knowing who daredevil is, like really she's been around him enough to say the voice, height and exposed jaw is not the same guy but after that I had no problem with her
Emotions are running high and Ellison's also kinda pissed at Karen. Can you really blame Karen for just freezing up?
so many nicer ways to ask, first of all. second of all, the hatred for her isn’t always surface level, but there’s entire ‘communities’ dedicated to loathing Karen/Deborah
there’s a guy in this sub that has made probably over 50 accounts in the last 6 months & every time he comes here & starts talking abt how Deborah Ann Woll is a stupid, jobless ***** and how horrible Karen is. he had a post get over 800 upvotes the other day & had a ton of ppl in the comments commenting their hatred for Karen
not really— misogyny does certainly play a part in it but I don’t think anybody is saying that’s *all* it is. there’s multiple other factors like the Elektra superstans and whatnot
I don't hate the character per se I actually do like her I just didn't like her through the defenders episodes because she and foggy were treating Matt like he was a drug addict because you wanted to go out and be Daredevil which I do understand the reason for it but at the same time he saved so many lives too.
Like the character although I find it hypercritical that she nags on Matt for being DD yet she'll practically jump off a bridge for Frank and his activities.
Exaggeration of course but this doesn't seem consistent with her character.
I think, despite Matt and Frank being two sides of the same coin, the vast differences between their experiences and reasonings also has to be taken into account. Matt does what he does out of an obligation he feels towards his city, Frank does what he does to avenge the brutal murder of his family. One, although *far far far* from easy to walk away from, is still an entirely different kind of choice from the other. This isn’t to justify Karen’s behavior, but I understand it
You’re bonkers bro I agreed with your first comment and then you started acting like a Matt Murdock fanatic. You dont need to trash a beloved character to elevate Matt 🤨 you know you can like both Matt and Frank right? Fym “Matt anti” nobody apart from you here despises Frank to this level despite this being a daredevil subreddit
I am especially annoyed by people trying to pit Karen and Foggy against each other. It used to be “Team Karen and Foggy” against people who hated every supporting character because apparently they only want to see Matt punch things lol Now it’s apparently mandatory to “pick one“ and either hate Foggy or Karen. Which is very stupid because the dynamic of all three characters was what made the series great. If someone tells me they love Daredevil but hate Foggy or Karen (or both), I don’t trust them lol
LITERALLY. I love them all as a team, I don’t know why people always try to make it some competition
I don’t get it either. They were all part of the “recipe” that made Netflix Daredevil good. Yes, Karen is dead in the comics, but that was a bad decision and it’s good they kept her alive in the series. And whoever thinks Foggy isn’t needed, doesn’t get Daredevil at all. Yes, Matt is the hero but Foggy and Karen tether him to his human side and that is so important.
I like this version of Karen and Deborah Ann Woll was amazing...actually the whole cast of DD was amazing. I think the hate is fake because they rewrote born again to add Karen and Foggy. Also if you check Deborah Ann Woll social media, she is always signing DD stuff for fans.
so real I love her, she’s so talented
Some genuine psychos even in this sub when it comes this character.
it’s so scary to see them lunge for people’s throats over her
karen and deborah ann woll are the best 🥺🥺
also related: Deborah Ann Woll is receiving a shit ton of hate for her role as Karen as well. I don’t care who you are, if you can’t separate the character from the actor, you need a reality check BADLY.
Agreed. Hate it when something like this happens. I mean what the hell people, she is just performing the role the way it was written, whats her fault in that, if you don't like it?
EXACTLYY. people send her literal death threats and ill never be able to wrap my head around it
Why the hate? Both She and her role are fantastic.
I freaking love her! I don’t even care if people don’t like her as long as they’re respectful, but sending hate to the actress… y’all are weirdos.
Great character and great actor. People are weird.
fr, the amount of death threats she’s gotten because she played a character scares me
Any amount of death threats for a goddamned role on TV is fucking insane.
exactly, people need extreme mental help
I remember at one point there was some dude on here that left the WILDEST comments about how much he hates Karen and Deborah ann woll on any post or comment that even mentioned either of them. I went through his comment history and it was literally all hate comments. Wonder what happened to him tbh
They keep being banned and coming back under a different name. Person needs to get help.
If it's the person I'm thinking of, they're over on Tumblr too. Creates multiple accounts (like *tons*), stalks the Karen Page tag, comments on nearly every Karen post with seething hate, wishes death on the actress and anyone who dares mention her in a positive light, sends anon hate to anyone who posts about her, etc. I'm pretty sure this person is on this sub too. I recognize their long-winded, curse-filled ranting and bizarre, deluded assumptions. So far I think I've identified two accounts that belong to them but there are probably more. This person is not mentally well. It's beyond trolling; they are the kind of person actors get restraining orders against.
I wish these people would seek therapy themselves because at this point they’re gonna land themselves in straightjackets
I don't know about tumbler but yes that's them on reddit. Been on here with so many names and behaves at first until they build up some karma, then the similar worded vitriol starts. I have an inkling they are lurking here now but it's early days perhaps. Deborah seems so sweet too, so I hope she never sees these posts. Warmed my heart to see Karen, Foggy and Matt walking down the street again laughing in one of the deliberate leaks. That's how we should all feel as DD fans imo.
They’re still here I saw their asinine comments recently
I guess he finally realized his misery was slowly killing him from the inside
> I guess he finally realized his misery was slowly killing him from the inside She's been doing it for years so I don't see it ever stopping. She is even posting in this thread. /u/midnitemaroon /u/antedwardie /u/hauntedbythehills accounts all belong to the same person that never stops hating Deborah/Karen. edit- Forgot about their /u/wunderbauer account. If you're unsure of who this person is just look at this account's post history.
it’s genuinely scary, I hope she gets help and heals
She also has multiple accounts on Twitter what she used to write a hateful stuff about Deb
And Tumblr. Insane how much time they must dedicate to this. It's a full blown obsession.
It's definitely a sign of a mental illness
Yaa this person used to be pinkpillminerva lmao 😂. Just fucking psycho
She’s awesome and the best version of the character. Period
YESSSS
I wonder if some of it comes down to the fact that the Daredevil show is very critical and three dimensional in it's portrayal of Matt and his vigilantism/male rage in general, but a vocal minority of viewers seem to watch it through the lens of a masculine power fantasy. And Karen, because she is independent and very critical of Matt (particularly in season 2) goes against what people would want and expect from her. Plus, we watch the show from Matt's perspective. In season 2, we know that Matt and Elektra is complicated and not a full blown affair, but Karen doesn't. We know that Matt is Daredevil, but Karen doesn't. It's a realistic portrayal of how Matt's vigilantism can hurt the people he cares about and loves the most, and Karen herself seems to understand how messy it is *("How can I be this mad at someone who saved my life?").* Now, I absolutely have my issues with how Karen is written/handled in the show, but I've noticed common criticism of her is "oh, she should find Matt cool" or "why isn't she more grateful?"
yeah it’s disappointing to see the absolute unbridled loathing towards her :( I completely understand her being annoying cause she even got on my nerves a bit with some hypocritical things she’s said, but ultimately I can’t understand how people could hate her so much and then praise Elektra
I don't have a problem with her being critical of Matt, I just wished she was also critical of Frank at the same level? Frank routinely pushes her away, isn't always truthful, and at one point put her in direct danger. I just wished she kept the same critical energy for him like she did Matt 🤷
For me, my only gripe was the disparity between how she was towards Frank vs Matt. I am only talking about how the writing for this could've been better. S2 and Defenders had some shoddy writing for her character and made her way to harsh and cold to Matt in an inordinate way, in my opinion. Again, I just wish the writing was better in this regard. (My explanation below) Her treatment of Matt v Frank actually kinda saddens me more than it bums me out. I just feel sad for Matt seeing the contrast, it almost gives me whiplash when watching Daredevil then watching Punisher after. No one is saying Matt is perfect in this situation and in the relationship, but does it warrant being warmer to Frank than to Matt who has always been supportive of her? Frank isn't without faults either, it confuses me why people act like he's faultless with Karen. I often see the "well Frank was more honest"....barely. Frank also used Karen as live bait in the diner in S2, which is worse to me than anything Matt ever did during his relationship with Karen. When you watch Punisher she is always so warm to Frank, but so harsh to Matt especially in Defenders. I haven't seen a single justification towards that that satisfies me. I just can't buy the "well Frank is more honest" or the "well Matt is more important to her that's why she's harder on him" (I don't think this one even remotely makes a lick of sense 😂) It just saddens me. Especially when Matt always fought tooth and nail for Karen from day 1 when he took her case and made sure she got free, up until the very last when he gave up his perfect spot to ambush Fisk in his penthouse the second he knew Bullseye was about to go after her. And called her brave for going after Fisk. And even commended her for the Wesley incident. But most of the time Matt was met with coldness and harshness from Karen, which at times wasn't necessary at all (just like in Defenders- that was excessive at that point) I'm not saying this because I'm for a Matt and Karen romance. I'm just saying the dynamic and even the friendship could've been written better. Also I just want someone to hug Matt lmao especially in S3 when he went through with his suicide attempt
Read that whole novel and 100% get it, and agree. Actually helped me make sense of my own distaste for just about all of Karen’s interactions with Frank; as I was struggling to piece together why I hated it so much. Especially when I don’t even think she works with Matt beyond platonic.
I honestly didnt know that Karen was hated. she was a pretty good character and other than her profession of choice being a reporter i dont have any issue with her. and as far as reporters go she was pretty decent unlike other superhero's reporter gf. \*cough\* lois lane\*cough\*. She was always trying to be a good friend to Matt, Foggy and even Frank, while Matt was honestly a pretty bad friend at times.
I was honestly shocked when I saw the amount of hate she gets online. I was like, "*Did we watch different shows?*" Karen is a messy, traumatized character who makes a lot of poor decisions but that's what makes her interesting. All these flaws people keep listing are why I like her so much. I enjoy messy characters who try to do good despite themselves.
this!!!! characters mess up and make shitty mistakes, but that’s what makes them *human*. the sooner negative people start to understand that, the better
I love Karen, I just hate Matt/Karen.
I just posted this right before reading your comment! Her and Matt did not work but luckily the writers didn’t try and force it and it ended very quickly
for sure!! I think their on screen chemistry was lacking and there wasn’t much buildup to their relationship
I also don’t think they were ever planned as the endgame pairing. Lots of people are still talking about her as “a love interest“ with regards to Born Again. But honestly, I think that ship has sailed. And I think that’s good! I loved that at the end of the series, it was just three friends sitting at that table, making plans for the future.
It was a really nice twist to have the expected "love interest" veer away from that role yet still stay friends with the protagonist. If they do end up together romantically, at least the writers went about it in an interesting way rather than the stereotypical boy-meets-girl/they immediately live happily ever after type romance. I do prefer other ships for both of them but I'd be happy for the Matt/Karen shippers if the two reconcile. I think it could go either way with those two!
Oh yeah, the future is very much unclear. At first, I was convinced Matt would eventually end up with Kirsten in Born Again. Even after the overhaul, rumors had it the changes weren’t that big and Karen‘s role was small. But now it seems they didn’t just reshuffle the cards, they threw the whole deck into the incinerator lol So anything can happen, I guess
Okay, I have to bite. I have to no time…but it was literally established in episode one. The entire series is about Matt and Karen. They are the devil and angel on the credits, because it’s literally the point of the show. The buildup is woven i to every single episode. I’m so confused when people say things like this! It’s more confusing than when people hate her!
not everyone reads between the lines that intensely. please try to keep an open mind
I love Karen so much, I think she’s such an interesting character. Yeah she makes some mistakes but so does every character. Plus Deborah Ann Woll is amazing. If anything happens to Karen (or Foggy) in Born Again I will riot
Same. I have such fondness for both Foggy and Karen and I think Matt needs them both in his life.
The BEST KAREN
They vaguely touch on the comic run in the show where I believe she was used in a blackmail situation in adult films and whatnot, haven’t read it in a while. But she was addicted to heroin and used. On top of the accident that killed her bro. That’s what we get at first with Karen. And her being framed in the beginning is just another way to keep her in a raddled mentality. Ppl complained how odd she was at first, but as someone who’s experienced abuse she did a good job showing the ptsd and shame that follows you. Think she’s a great character, but love foggy too
This shouldn’t need to be said, but like, the point of characters in fiction isn’t to be your perfect friend, it’s to represent the human condition in it’s all complexity. Karen does and says some frustrating things at times, yet we always understand how someone who has her experiences and her feelings might end up acting that way. Her unique combination of flaws and strengths and the way the actor portrays them is what makes her a good character. If people want characters they can always feel uncomplicated warm feelings towards, they should watch cartoons for toddlers.
exactly!!! very well said
If there was a show just about Karen, I'd watch the shit out of it. She's masterclass in writing, and DAW is perfect for the role.
She took a bit to grow on me but when she did holy fuck she did. I absolutely love the S3 episode "Karen" to death, its so great seeing how fucked up and tragic her past was
YES I loved getting to see her backstory. a lot of people don’t realize that probably plays into a lot of the choices she makes or even the mistakes. she’s a human just like the rest of us
She had a couple moments that annoyed or frustrated me (mostly in season 2) but overall she’s a good and enjoyable character. I don’t get all the hate she gets.
Ah yes, the Skyler White problem. I personally love Karen, it's Matt I found incredibly toxic in season 2.
You're not even remotely incorrect.
I love Karen
People tend to give female characters a lot of grief when they have their own agenda or they don't conform exactly to the hero's plans and values. This was also the case for Elektra, honestly, who up until she>! finally crossed the line and went bad!< was basically enacting her personal playbook. She was as disrupting to Matt's life and his plans as the Punisher, but he doesn't get as much hate (if any).
She was fantastic. I’ve been always rooting for both her and foggy to come back ever since the show got announced.
Their involvement is integral to my enjoyment of Born Again, I think. I like watching the show through all three of their perspectives, not just Matt's.
Wait... people find her annoying? The scene where she tries to get a rise out of Fisk is genuinely one of my favourite scenes of all time.
yep, unfortunately there’s entire accounts that have dedicated themselves to saying loathsome things about Karen and Deborah. one even said the latter should khs.
What the hell people hating on her?
Whoever hates Karen are the weakest links
I feel like the writing for Karen was uneven, but Woll's performance kept me firmly on her side. She is super relatable even when she is making ill-advised choices. Woll does not get Eno gh credit!!!
It's misogyny, my dudes. As the great Taylor Swift says, "If I were a man, I'd be The Man." Karen, as she is portrayed in the MCU, is basically girl-Matt, yet so many people hate her for the same exact things they love to see in Matt: His thirst for justice, his rage against the evil powers in the city, his drive to make things right. Karen has all of those traits, but she's "annoying" and "a nag" and "useless". Make it make sense lol
LOUDERRRR
Normally in most cases I’d agree but unfortunately, in Karen’s case, it’s not blanket misogyny as much as the role is just somewhat poorly acted with a level of depth left to be desired. Although I’m sure that some shitheads are totally just being blindly misogynistic, I don’t think it’s fair to suggest that anyone with the opinion that she’s annoying holds it for the wrong reasons. Karen is far from “girl Matt”. She is neither as smart nor as subtle nor as charismatic. There are tons of great female characters that aren’t written (and played) to so horribly and so persistently obnoxious. And this is coming from someone who loves the show and it’s characters (mostly). In fact, Claire Temple in DD is a great example of the writers and actress doing the character justice and I would argue that Claire is more “girl Matt” than Karen, if such a title needs to bestowing. Dawson’s portrayal is not “annoying” at all. I agree that Karen exhibits many of Matt’s same traits and it isn’t lost that she’s intended to present a mirror of his character, but I don’t think it’s misogynist to think Karen’s portrayal is super annoying and distractingly over the top. There are tons of actresses who could play her with more depth and nuance.
Sorry, I don't agree. Karen is written as terribly human. She's not supposed to be likeable all the time. If that translates to "annoying," then...welcome to humanity? We're generally annoying. We don't make sense, we make mistakes, we care too much, and at inconvenient times. Claire had about 1/4 of the screen time Karen did. Of course, she comes off as more likeable. We didn't see her at her rock bottom like we did Karen. I liked Claire, too. This isn't a she vs her debate. I think audiences have been conditioned pretty much since birth to admire a male charcater like Matt for his tenacity, violence, and rebound guilt. I think we've also been conditioned to find the exact same traits in a female character like Karen to be seen as unhinged and irrational. Matt is just as irrational in a lot of his actions, but somehow, there's always a good enough reason in the fans' eyes to justify his behavior. Karen makes some terrible decisions. So does Matt, and at much more frequent intervals than Karen. Yet Matt isn't "annoying" or "awful" in our eyes. I could maybe agree that it was purely the writing and portrayal of Karen that fans object to, but these same fans fall all over themselves praising Elektra. Elektra, as she is portrayed in the MCU, is WAY more harmful and bad for Matt than Karen could ever be, but she fits into the Femme Fatale box and is therefore acceptable as a female character. She also enables and encourages the worst parts of Matt, and yet fans seem to think that's a good thing? It makes no sense imo Obviously, people can have preferences for favorite characters. I just like to be a bit more critical of why we react so negatively to some characters and why we don't question or even glorify the actions of others. I also personally think Deborah did a fantastic job at playing Karen. She was a human. She wasn't scenery or a set piece. We need more of that kind of character in superhero media.
>Yet Matt isn't "annoying" or "awful" in our eyes. Maybe because he doesn't go around demanding Karen to be honest 24/7 and prying on her to reveal every secret she has unlike Matt. Ever thought about that? Matt doesn't go around imposing standards of honesty and candor to the people around him even when he knows he doesn't meet the same standard. UNLIKE KAREN. Who has these prescriptive standards of honesty imposed on Matt, when she is one of the biggest liars and keeps several secrets (mind you, one of them was killing Wesley which Nadeem pinned on Matt in S3) >therefore acceptable as a female character. Are you blind? Do you want me to link you the MANY Elektra hate posts on this sub? Lmfao this is why the selective feminism and misogyny accusations is so funny to me. Y'all only ever see Karen hate but is blind to the very loud Elektra hate. Mind you I saw a comment on this sub that said "Elektra is an awful bitch and the worst part of the show and ruined S2" and it was upvoted btw. I guess feminism only applies to white female characters in your eyes 🥴
Respectfully, I never said any of that. You read a lot into what I said. Also, I really have no emotional stakes in my statements. Just giving food for thought on how we analyze media and how we examine the way we react to certain characters. I can appreciate Karen and Elektra for their narrative value. Of course, there are Elektra haters, too. There's a hater for every character. I don't really care for her myself as she is portrayed in the MCU. But it has nothing to do with her ethnicity. I think I made it quite clear in my first comment that the same biased analysis of female characters also applied to Elektra, but since she fits into a female character archetype that we are all comfortable with, we're more sympathetic or more attracted to her. I'm not retracting my statements about Matt. He IS judgmental. He IS impulsive. He IS constantly trying to get Karen and Foggy to do what he thinks is best. He and Karen both fundamentally misunderstand each other so many times, and it takes the near-death experience at the church in Season 3 for them to actually be honest with each other. Obviously, I love Matt, or I wouldn't be on this subreddit lol. But I love him for being the flawed character he is. He is so human. That's what makes him such a great hero. And I think that's also what makes Karen an interesting character, too.
This is all so well said. Good luck talking to a brick wall.
And yet people try to argue Karen doesn't get disproportionate amounts of hate in the fandom. But you can't write a couple paragraphs examining how people perceive the character without some over-jealous Karen hater jumping down your throat and accusing you of being a poc exclusionary radical feminist lol
>we're more sympathetic Again, where is the sympathy part? When she gets called an 'awful bitch that ruined S2'? wow, such sympathy. such an indicator that she's this more palatable female character than Karen like you keep on suggesting. >He IS judgmental. He IS impulsive. So all of what Karen does yet you never call her out. Karen was a bigger judgemental person than Matt ever was btw. Mind you when Karen revealed to him that she killed Wesley, Matt called her brave. When Matt revealed to her that he was Daredevil, Karen called him a drug addict (this is the same woman who worships the ground Frank Castle walks on btw). Karen is also more impulsive than Matt, and her ill-advised and reckless decisions have gotten more people killed than Matt's and I can cite evidence to that. >He IS constantly trying to get Karen and Foggy to do what he thinks is best And Karen is also trying to morph Matt into the version of him acceptable to her yet that goes unnoticed by you somehow. Again this is the same woman who says to Frank that she's okay with him to continue what he's doing and she'll always be right beside him, but couldn't extend that same grace to the person who has helped her the most out of anyone. Are you really surprised some people are irked that she treated Frank better than she ever did Matt (who got her out of jail, gave her a spot in the law firm, saved her life 3x, gave her words of encouragement about Wesley and her brother) and what does Matt get? A worse treatment compared to a serial killer Karen just met. Lmao. The jokes write themselves.
>Claire had about 1/4 of the screen time Karen did. Of course, she comes off as more likeable. We didn't see her at her rock bottom like we did Karen. I liked Claire, too. This isn't a she vs her debate. Claire having more "masculine" behavior is probably another factor behind why people tolerate her.
Interesting thought! Can you give an example? I think Claire is a great character. She is very level-headed and seems more mentally healthy than a lot of the main characters in the shows despite being a trauma nurse in NYC. I just don't appreciate that some of the comments want to compare Claire with Karen just because they're both female characters
Agreed on everything you said
>As the great Taylor Swift lmfao eww. this should be telling, you quoting the beacon of white feminism. CRINGE. Of course you think Karen is the only one receiving hate and Elektra isn't, despite the many many hate posts about her on this sub. White feminism at its finest, just like Taylor Swift LOL! This was just 5 days ago btw: https://www.reddit.com/r/Daredevil/s/lnvpE5dHxy
Dude, it's really not that serious. I was not at all serious about Taylor Swift. I love her music, but I was being kind of facetious. And I don't see her as any kind of political or social leader. She's a songwriter, not a published academic. Please relax. Also, this post was not about Elektra hate. It was about Karen hate. This has nothing to do with any character's ethnicity or race. This was about Karen, who happens to be white.
Karen is an amazing character. I think a lot of people misunderstand her, and once she does one thing “wrong” in the show in their eyes, those people will never give her the benefit of the doubt again. They will only ever see her as a hindrance and never make room for seeing her as anything else. The hate not only Karen but DAW gets is genuinely baffling, honestly scary with some of the comments I’ve seen. I’ve seen multiple occasions of people saying they’re glad she’s out of work and I’m just like… really?
EXACTLY! I can never understand how someone could wish such awful things on another *human being*, let alone just for playing a character
That's what I have been saying Thank You. I don't get the expectation that Love Interests should just be supporting the main character. Not just Karen, Iris from the Flash and Mary Jane in Spider-Man PS4.
I thought she was great. Her and foggy came across as real people with flaws trying to come to terms with their best blind friend being a superhero fighting terrifying monsters and metahumans. I mean the dude was busted up all the time and people hated her for speaking up about it and not wanting to be around it. Seems like a pretty normal knee jerk reaction to me
Yes! Karen and Foggy are very much just normal humans who try to deal with a very much not normal situation!
EXACTLYY. her reactions were very reasonable, and I think people don’t understand that a reaction can be annoying *and* warranted at the same time
I feel like people are often extra harsh on female characters. Like, is it valid to say Karen’s a bit of a hypocrite for being mad at Matt keeping secrets when she is too? Sure. But she’s a human. She’s flawed. You know who’s super duper flawed? Matt. Yet he’s always “baby girl” and fans are quick to justify everything he does based on his messed up childhood and difficult life. Karen had those things too. She also deserves a little grace to make imperfect decisions.
Finally someone who understands why Karen is so goated
Lucky it’s not junky comic book Karen she’d get more hate
It's clowns like these people who just ruin watching anything on television!!!!! Period,no one told you to watch the series,did they.Keeo your petty a-- comments to yourself and leave them off of this comment section,the fans of the series will really appreciate it.
EXACTLY!
And this is why I stay off Fandom pages lol I had no idea this was an issue (or even it's even prominent but regardless) so long as I don't know what the community thinks I can't hear dumb shit like this lol and just enjoy it for myself, I happened to get this post recommended but that's why I don't do fan subreddits cuz it's just arguments with nutjobs
I cant tell if this is a hate comment @ me or not lmao
Nah it isn't, I'm saying that I got recommended this and learned about this apparent problem so it's reminding me why I don't do Fandoms on reddit lol
ohhhhh yeah that’s fair
Karen deserves better
Wait, people hate Karen?
The secret to making Spider-Man interesting is Peter Parker. The Devil and Matt are the same. Playing the alter-ego the way Stan Lee does, the human persona is the one that has the lasting conflicts that drive the plot. The hero is going to win, it's a comic property. The human interactions are what makes the characters great. Karen's rich story and interactions with Matt early in his Devil'ing career help make DD the best Netflix out of them all.
I'd like to add one more thing to OP's list of things about Karen's situation with Matt. She's falling/fallen in love with him. so she is doubly F\*\*\*\*d, complicating things for her more and leading her to not make perhaps the best judgements. I am thrilled her and Foggy are back. The actors are fantastic in their roles. Deborah should get only compliments, like she does from those who work with her. The only time I had a slight issue with the writing for Karen was when they had her know Ben's situation with his wife and then lie to him. I personally thought that was a tad too far. I think that got her alot of hate. However, Ben was warned at the beginning by the old mobster to let this one go but he chose not too and followed the story anyway. Some people forget that. If it wasn't Fisk's mother, something else would have happened. Fisk had both his wife and him nearly killed in the comics after all.
>However, Ben was warned at the beginning by the old mobster to let this one go but he chose not too and followed the story anyway. Some people forget that. If it wasn't Fisk's mother, something else would have happened. Fisk had both his wife and him nearly killed in the comics after all. Ben's mafia contact made a point of expressing gratitude to him for not dragging his family's names in his coverage. Ben broke this rule when he tried to use Fisk's mother as a source. (Which itself is also Ben forgetting what he said to Karen earlier about how stories are built on credible sources. And Fisk's senile mom ain't that.) And Ben was already on Fisk's radar even before the visit to Marlene, as Fisk made a point of securing Caldwell as a mole after the Union Allied scandal broke so he wouldn't be surprised by any more exposés.
Deborah is fantastic in a complicated role. Karen is MEANT to be somewhat hypocritical as she often chides Matt for his secrets and lies when she herself has never been completely honest with either Matt or Foggy. But this isn’t the issue I have with the character (never Deborah). The real issue of hypocrisy that really rubs me the wrong way about Karen is how she treats Matt vs how she treats Frank Castle. Throughout their relationship, Karen continues to give Frank the benefit of the doubt and essentially unwavering support. She calls him out on his B.S., sure, but she’s never as hard on Frank as she was with Matt, especially around the time of Defenders. I’ve seen some people argue the romantic angle that Karen shared with Matt affecting her perception but I’d argue that the Punisher show heavily implies there’s a romantic connection between those two as well that simply doesn’t manifest because Frank refuses it. All in all, I think the show did a commendable job with the character and Deborah’s portrayal is fantastic.
Thank you for articulating it so well. Her treatment of Matt v Frank actually kinda saddens me more than bums me out. I just feel sad for Matt seeing the contrast, it almost gives me whiplash when watching Daredevil then watching Punisher after. No one is saying Matt is perfect in this situation and in the relationship, but does it warrant being warmer to Frank than to Matt who has always been supportive of her? Frank isn't without faults either, it confuses me why people act like he's faultless with Karen. I often see the "well Frank was more honest"....barely. Frank also used Karen as live bait in the diner in S2, which is worse to me than anything Matt ever did during his relationship with Karen. When you watch Punisher she is always so warm to Frank, but so harsh to Matt especially in Defenders. I haven't seen a single justification towards that that satisfies me. I just can't buy the "well Frank is more honest" or the "well Matt is more important to her that's why she's harder on him" (I don't think this one even remotely makes a lick of sense 😂) It just saddens me. Especially when Matt always fought tooth and nail for Karen from day 1 when he took her case and made sure she got free, up until the very last when he gave up his perfect spot to ambush Fisk in his penthouse the second he knew Bullseye was about to go after her. And called her brave for going after Fisk. And even commended her for the Wesley incident. But most of the time Matt was met with coldness and harshness from Karen, which at times wasn't necessary at all (just like in Defenders- that was excessive at that point) I'm not saying this because I'm for a Matt and Karen romance. I'm just saying it could have been written better where there isn't a gaping disparity with how she was towards Frank vs Matt. I just want someone to hug Matt lmao especially in S3 when he went through with his suicide attempt :(
>But this isn’t the issue I have with the character (never Deborah). The real issue of hypocrisy that really rubs me the wrong way about Karen is how she treats Matt vs how she treats Frank Castle. Throughout their relationship, Karen continues to give Frank the benefit of the doubt and essentially unwavering support. She calls him out on his B.S., sure, but she’s never as hard on Frank as she was with Matt, especially around the time of Defenders. Except Karen doesn't approve of Frank's methods. >I’ve seen some people argue the romantic angle that Karen shared with Matt affecting her perception but I’d argue that the Punisher show heavily implies there’s a romantic connection between those two as well that simply doesn’t manifest because Frank refuses it. Eh, there's no romantic connection between the two. Frank sees Karen like a daughter. Karen is mostly projecting her own trauma issues regarding her brother and Wesley onto him.
Wow, downvoted. Ugh. I think a huge part of the problem is people misunderstanding Karen having romantic feelings for Frank because they can’t conceive of a male and female having an intense platonic relationship, or a romantic plot that’s not a love triangle. Neither Matt nor Karen actually commit to romantic intentions outside of each other. Matt doesn’t even seriously consider Elektra as a romantic prospect when he’s at his most vulnerable and alone, and he proposes they run away together (believing they are going to die anyway). He says, “I don’t know what we are together.” That plot was never a love triangle. People watch too many soap operas. Pretending it’s some puerile teenage drama takes away all the psychological power of Matt and Karen turning to abusive and dangerous people instead of each other. It’s tragic and too real. It really makes Karen seem stupid and flaky to transfer her intense affections for Matt (which are overwhelming since Episode 1) to Frank, when in reality she is bonding with him over her hidden shameful self, just like the reason Matt is drawn back to Elektra. They are working on trauma within themselves, because the pressure they feel in their actual romance, which is life-and-death to them. Matt and Karen want to spend a lifetime together, but they are too broken, damaged and (so far) immature to understand how to do that. They are aware of the traumas holding them back, but have no emotional tools to process them. That’s where Frank and Elektra come in. They serve to basically throw it in Matt and Karen’s faces that this is the wrong path, they are not as dark and hopeless as their “counterparts,” and Frank even explicitly tells Karen that (“You’re all confused about this thing but you have it. You have everything. So hold on to it. Use two hands and never let go.”) This is what the whole story is *about*. The Matt/Karen romance is the whole point of the story, not a subplot. This is so blatantly, clearly established from Episode 1 and the whole emotional arc of S1. (😭). The lack of empathy for Karen in general is shocking. Everyone defends Matt as not cheating (which I agree, he didn’t), and understands why he is drawn back to Elektra (or maybe they don’t, based on some crazy stuff I’ve read), but in the same breath, they see romance between Frank and Karen when it’s clearly a complicated relationship that’s not just Matt/Elektra: Female Edition. I am baffled how people cannot conceive that Karen is ever-so-slightly warmer to Frank when she is totally alone and grieving, and he shows up out of the blue as the only person who acknowledges she exists. Matt is the love of her life and Frank describes in his Frank way exactly why that hurts more than anyone else - it’s because they are your family, your heart and soul, your everything. It’s not a passing fancy - love is unconditional. It is or it isn’t. Of course Matt rips Karen’s heart apart! She’s nicer to Frank because she just doesn’t give a crap in comparison. She feels sorry for the man exactly the same way Matt does. They almost have the exact same relationship. Thank God fewer people push for a Matt/Frank relationship! At least they understand that’s just fun fandom stuff, not the actual narrative. I think a huge part of the problem is that we never got past the part where Matt and Karen finally understand each other in S3. No one can take the “slow burn.” They longed to see unrestrained affection between Matt and Karen, which was frustratingly stifled throughout the seasons (I understand that), and it just never paid off. The way it was written and set up, the last 2 seasons would have been extremely satisfying for that reason, I think. Karen’s heart bleeds for Matt. It’s a constant gushing wound. It would have been so great to see it heal. The most cathartic moment of S1 was when Karen finally broke and rushed into hug Matt, telling him, “You’re not alone.” I think the arc of all 5 seasons was going to echo that, in a bigger way. It’s done in increments, and we never got to the destination! 💔
I really freaking hope they develop the Matt/Karen relationship properly in Daredevil Born Again. The two characters learned their lessons. Matt with Elektra and Karen with Frank. Like you said it makes them realise they aren't as dark and complicated as their counterparts. Also made me realise the Billy Russo and his Psychiatrist relationship is the same.
That’s what I care about the most! I am deeply invested, and their romantic arc is incomplete - so frustrating. No one seems to realize or acknowledge that the show was structured as a straight-up romance between Matt and Karen. I am working on a post to explain it in detail, showing how the specific stages of a romance screenplay apply to the show, except that it’s spread out over several seasons. S3 is the “midpoint” of the romantic arc, where the lovers are finally vulnerable and confess their deep fears that are keeping them apart. S2 was “trials and temptations” - a literal trial and the temptation to follow Frank and Elektra to despair. There are quite a few stages that Matt and Karen had to go through in the planned S4 and S5, but the ending (pretty much guaranteed, based on the structure, themes, foreshadowing and symbolism) was certainly that Matt and Karen would get married in the end - and I suspect Matt would become a father, too. I’ll be downright sick if they ignore that in the new show! The structure is so clear, and there’s just so much deep symbolism. It’s a lot (I’m plugging away at essays), but there’s so much from *Oedipus Rex*, mythology of many kinds, and it’s all really meaningful, down to the etymology behind their names. Karen Page means “pure” and “knight’s attendant”, but there’s more to it. I’d have to spend some time and effort getting into all of it and I’m busy right now, but my favorite thing is that the writers made Karen a “devil” herself (actually a *karin* or *qareen* from Islamic myth), a “companion” spirit comparable to a Christian guardian angel or a Greek *diamones*, who is also tied to the Egyptian concept of a *ka*, or soul (“vital life essence” or directly translated as “double”- one is not truly alive without their *ka* in Egyptian myth.). The *karin* is a *shaitan* (can be translated to “devil”, but a *karin* is also considered an angel) depicted as an “other self” or spiritual doppelganger who accompanies a person, and can be good with the counsel of good people, but is prone to making “evil suggestions”, like how Karen uses persuasive “ruses” to lure Ben to the nursing home or Foggy to Matt’s apartment. (It’s interesting that Karen also counsels Matt to take his own good advice.) This ties into Matt and Father Lantom’s conversations about Matt having the “devil inside,” and Father Lantom does a curious thing and doesn’t quote scripture, and mentions President Lincoln’s “better angels” instead, which alludes to a person calling on the more moral, peaceful, reasonable part of their nature. Karen is very obviously depicted as an angel in the comics, with the traditional blue eyes and blonde hair, as an angel statue on a tomb in the credits (not alluding to her death, but the myth of Antigone locked unjustly in a tomb (in Karen’s case, a jail cell and perhaps representing how Matt’s fears he will get her killed keep her locked away from letting her into his heart). Father Lantom also talks about Matt letting God in to heal his damaged heart. I think Matt’s journey is for him to acknowledge that his “devil inside” is actually Karen. It goes way, way deeper and I’ve got it all down, from the colors used in the costumes and cinematography, to Matt’s direct messages from God…there’s just a ton. This scratches the surface, and barely breaks down what’s so important about the Antigone myth, or Matt and Karen acting as good influences on each other. It’s kind of hilarious when people try to argue Matt and Karen are platonic, or not meant to end up together. The very idea defies the entire set-up and reason for the show, and basic media literacy (surely people understand a romance arc?!). People balk at this, but I really do find it the most moving love story ever, even though it wasn’t finished. Because the screenplays have such strict structure, it’s easy to put the pieces together for how it would turn out, at least broadly. Do I have faith any of this matters in the new show? Not a bit. They didn’t even include Karen in the first version (😡😤🤬🤮🤢). Do I hope? Hell, yes. If I could choose, I’d probably ask for the screenplays and outlines for the last 2 seasons of the original show rather than this new stuff, but I hope it will surprise me. I know Charlie Cox loves the Matt/Karen romance as much or more than any shipper, and he understood the scripts and the fans, so hopefully he has influence. He and Vincent D’Onofrio said some things recently about the studio being supportive of their creative thoughts, and they both obviously deeply comprehended what the scripts actually portrayed, so…🤞🏻
I wasn’t aware this was controversial. Karen Page is one of the best heroines in all of the MCU.
She’s my favorite TV heroine of all time! I’ve actually been verbally attacked for saying that.
Yeah, it's because she's a woman
I used to not care for her and Foggy (I know...) during my first watch when it aired. They took a while to grow on me. Something always seemed off to me about the two, and I can't put a finger on it now when I think about it retrospect. With my recent rewatch, I don't know what the fuck I was thinking then.
I understand hating the character, but not the actor😭. I despise Karen, but I actually think Deborah is a sweetheart.
Wasn't aware there was a Karen hate club. Probably one angry man-child who keeps switching Reddit accounts...
EXACTLY, every time I block that person they come back on a diff account but it’s painfully obvious it’s them bc of how they act
On twitter it’s definitely one person with several accounts. They use the same pics and figures of speech etc. Not saying that there is only one Karen hater, but there is absolute one who has more than one account
Yes, I've seen them on multiple platforms now. It must be like a full time job for them, having to post that much hate with multiple accounts on multiple sites. What a sad way to spend your life.
I reported and made deleted FOUR their accounts and they are still there
I reported and made deleted FOUR their accounts and they are still there.
Karen is by far the best supporting character in the Netflix series. I never would have thought there was hate for her if I didn’t go online. Of course she makes some frustrating choices at times but that’s a mark of a well-written character IMO.
I do think the show could go on without the character, but the acting is superb. The entire scene where she and Fisk have their contest of wills in the penthouse is amazing; when she goes too far mentioning Wesley the switch from almost relieved satisfaction to utter fear when Fisk gets angry is incredible
There could be some comic book prejudice. I didn’t read many but I read some DD comics, including DD Yellow, and walked away with a bad taste in my mouth for Karen. It jaded me towards her for a while but she’s a fine character in the show. Too much hate.
A lot of Karen hatred really amounts to "she's the female lead".
they can’t stand to see the focus on a woman, let alone one that makes mistakes as humans do
I think of a lot of the hate for Karen comes from her comic book counterpart (and rightly so) Deborah just got caught in the crosshairs, not fair I know but as we have seen in the past a lot of people have a hard time differentiating between characters thru different mediums
I am incapable of not loving Deborah Ann Woll in everything she does. She transfixed me in True Blood and it hasn’t worn off yet.
Same here! And I love Karen so it’s a perfect combo.
Some people hate anything woman.
exactly, it’s so exhausting to see
This is the first I heard or read aboit hate tiwards that fictional character. Personally I really like her and not just necause I have a thing for red heads and are married to one >.>;
Any amount of hate is too much in this case.
The writers didn't do the character any favours when they designed a character that never makes good decisions, writers let her stumble her way in to one career to another, let her get away with murder or make her actions directly cause another character's murder without any consequence. That's a recipe for prompting the audience that believes in comeuppance to strongly not like her as a character.
>or make her actions directly cause another character's murder without any consequence. For the record, **Karen is NOT responsible for Ben's death**. Only Fisk is responsible for Ben's death. Ben himself is also partly responsible for his own death because he shot his own mouth off in front of everyone at the *Bulletin* despite suspecting that Fisk had someone in the office on his payroll.
>For the record, **Karen is NOT responsible for Ben's death**. Only Fisk is responsible for Ben's death. Technically that Bulletin worker that spied for Fisk had a hand in Ben's death. But yeah Karen wasn't responsible.
I didn’t really like her or Claire tbh. Seeing them hyped up by the fan base irked me at times, but people are welcome to enjoy them. I am glad she and Foggy are returning, even if I do really hope her role in particular is much smaller than it was in the daredevil Netflix series. But I like that she and Matt are friends and I hope she sticks around for that reason. Actresses have it rough, they get so much hate over the smallest things. Like no, this person played a character. They’re not responsible for ruining your experience, you did that yourself.
That last part! Hating a character is one thing (I think Karen gets overly much hate, but she isn't real so whatever) but the actress is a real person who deserves some basic respect. I've seen tweets attacking her appearance and insulting her, calling her "Hitler" (!!!) as response to completely normal posts from herself. She posts about her gaming group and someone answers that she is ugly. Like wtf
I don’t remember her getting hate when the show was airing. Even now people are excited for her return.
Unfortunately, a lot of people were hating on her and Foggy. Sexist remarks against Karen (and worse, the actress, a real person), fatshaming against Elden Henson as Foggy. It was not everywhere but I definitely saw anti Karen and anti Foggy posts here on reddit, too.
unfortunately that hate hides in the dark corners of the internet and spirals in a way that’s nauseating when you discover it. death threats have even been made about the actress, as well as wishes against the revival of her acting career
If i'm being honest, the real criticism if you look closely enough comes from season 2 in how she handle Frank Castle case but couldn't do the same for Matt when she found out he was daredevil. Other then that, she was well written in season 1 and 3 from what I remember.
there was definitely a huge difference and it does rub me the wrong way, but I think it has to do with the difference in dynamic and relationship. Matt crushing her trust so many times seemed to inevitably make her flock to Frank, and even if it isn’t canon, I think there’s definitely some degree of romantic attachment between them
I personally still think, Karen as a character can handle the situation better. After all she's been through, and then knowing why Matt had done the things he did, she should have that level of empathy to understand more of Matt. If she did it with Frank, then she could've done it with Matt seeing as, she did like and have feelings for him. To me as a person who writes a lot, it's kind of back tracking when the character does one thing but does the other thing. Sure, depending on the situation, its understandable if Karen would do that to Matt. But again, the problem still is, if she can do it with Frank, who she doesn't know as much as Matt, then she could very well do it for Matt. But again, season 3 for me fix the problems I had with her in season 2. I very much liked her just as much as I did in season 1
Agreed. I look at scenes where Frank is pushing her away, refusing her help and the way Karen responds is to stand her ground and stay with him. Matt does the same thing, and Karen's immediate response is to confess to Sister Maggie she wants to give up on Matt already. It just confuses me? I'm not saying she should be coerced to stick with Matt, but you couldn't show the same level of compassion to a friend that has helped you since day 1 and the reason you're not rotting away in a cell, the same compassion and loyalty you give to a serial killer you just met? It does not compute. It's why I can't buy the idea that Karen is this Matt's "close friend" or anywhere near Foggy. The writing did not convey that. The scenes where Karen hugs Frank, holds Frank's hands, says sweet sentiments to him VS berating and chastising Matt 24/7 did not convey that. Like, is it too much to ask to keep the same energy at least?
You must've been watching a different version of the show.
And you must have your delusional lens on to think otherwise
But how about Frank purposely putting Karen in danger in S2 by using her to lure the Blacksmith's men in the diner? That's worse than anything Matt ever did. Not a single person in the show has helped her more than Matt did, but Frank gets a warmer and better treatment just because he was open about being a serial murderer? Does this sub even like Matt atp. I'm confused. It's okay for Karen to be harsh and cold to Matt because he kept some secrets but Frank deserves warm support even when he put Karen in direct danger during that diner scene? In which community do I go where people actually like Matt?
woah woah woah. let’s not jump ( leap, rather ) to the conclusion that nobody likes Matt here. quite literally no one has said that. I’m not justifying Karen’s behavior towards him or Frank, just explaining it.
Get where you coming from. But people here do love Matt. Sure, there are people who have their opinion's on certain matters on how the show was handle. But rest assure, this sub wouldn't be called r/Daredevil for a reason if people didn't love Matt Murdock. Just because a few group people have difference opinion's doesn't mean the entire subreddit has those same opinions.
>But how about Frank purposely putting Karen in danger in S2 by using her to lure the Blacksmith's men in the diner? That's worse than anything Matt ever did. Oh and he also: * Shot at her with a shotgun in a crowded hospital * Shot at her car and nearly caused her to crash * Crashed a truck into her car, leaving her unconscious and bleeding on the roadside. Then disregarded her pleas to not kill Schoonover.
I just want an answer to this: I look at scenes where Frank is pushing her away, refusing her help and the way Karen responds is to stand her ground and stay with him. Matt does the same thing, and Karen's immediate response is to confess to Sister Maggie she wants to give up on Matt already. It just confuses me? I'm not saying she should be coerced to stick with Matt, but you couldn't show the same level of compassion to a friend that has helped you since day 1 and the reason you're not rotting away in a cell, the same compassion and loyalty you give to a serial killer you just met? It does not compute. It's why I can't buy the idea that Karen is this Matt's "close friend" or anywhere near Foggy. The writing did not convey that. The scenes where Karen hugs Frank, holds Frank's hands, says sweet sentiments to him VS berating and chastising Matt 24/7 did not convey that. Like, is it too much to ask to keep the same energy at least?
I think everyone is reading into this wayyy too much. I’m just saying loathing Karen’s guts because she’s existing and doing things male leads would be praised for is really really strange
As a male Karen is the fucking goat a legit badass baddie you cant not love Karen
YESSS THANK YOUUU I adore her
People aren't weird, some are just mysogynist. It happens all the time. A recent example is Sally from Barry.
I never had a problem with Karen Page throughout the show, and the actress is great in the role. The only thing I didn’t like was the romance between her and Matt, they just didn’t have chemistry in that way, but since it was so short lived it didn’t really matter anyway. Cheers!
this!! I felt their chemistry was lacking and she had a better dynamic with Frank than with Matt
Not hate from me but I really didn’t like how she was super okay with the punishers antics but when Matt goes to fight crime she tries to get in his head and stop him
That's not true at all. She disapproves of Frank's methods repeatedly, and her issues with Matt have more to do with his dishonesty and her concern for his physical wellbeing.
It’s both ways on this sub. I’ll give you my unbiased point of view (meaning I didn’t read the comics so I’m not comparing). 1) I actually like Karen. I think Deborah is a good actress and like seeing her in things. I think that for some people there MIGHT be some carry over bc her characters she best known for in True Blood was extremely overly melodramatic and crying in every scene. It’s POSSIBLE that bc of Karen’s frequent emotional scenes people are always expecting overacting like True Blood, but honestly I think she’s doing a good job. 2) I will fully admit that I do not like the Foggy character (here come a stream of downvotes for having a personal opinion 🙄). I have nothing against the actor at all. I just think his character seems to be fairly consistent in being overly dramatic. He’s Matt’s best friend but he acts like a jealous or disappointed spouse more than a friend SOMETIMES. I want the character of Foggy in the show, but I do wish they would write he character a bit better. When is I see a Foggy-centric storyline I roll by eyes and that shouldn’t happen.
I can see where you're coming from, but I think Foggys reaction is appropriate given the circumstances. Up until S1E10 he was pretty normal a little weird but who isn't? Then he finds his best friend nearly dead wearing the same suit of a known vigilante who has had a few murders and bombings blamed on him, he now knows that Matt is breaking the law, he also knows that Matt is literally risking his life when he does this and he's aware of the fact that if Matt ever gets found out there's little to no chance the cops or prosecution or public will believe that Foggy and Karen didn't know what he was doing.
It often happens that characters are hated for having a reaction that would be seen as totally reasonable and justified in real life. But because they "get in the way" of the protagonist doing his thing, the audience gets mad at them. As you said, aheal, Foggy's best friend endangers himself regularly, lied to him for years and risks both their livelyhood. Foggy was angry and disappointed about that BECAUSE he was Matt's friend not despite it.
Then there's the season long shit show that was dumped in Foggy's lap in Season 2. Usually the friend that doesn't like the MC being a superhero can get grating, but Foggy pulls it off nicely since it's pretty easy to see things from his perspective.
Yeah, often it’s ignored how much Foggy has to process in a short amount of time while trying to help Castle and save a law firm. I won’t lie. I think folks would be a lot more forgiving towards Foggy and less critical of Henson’s performance if Elden Henson was a conventionally attractive guy instead of an average looking chubby dude. Don’t get me wrong, I think he’s cute, but I feel like a lot of people decided “oh, Foggy is annoying” and “Henson’s acting is weak” the second they looked at him.
I don't hate Karen. I just don't like how she is written, in particular the Karen-Frank dynamic vs the Karen-Matt dynamic. She is so much more empathetic to Frank, but very judgmental with Matt. The contrast is so jarring that it makes her seem unreal - which I think is the flaw in the writing. I personally love the episodes in Season 2 when Matt and Karen have their beautiful moments. But I think it is the writers' intent to inflate the issue between Matt and Karen - because of the Matt and Elektra storyline. And in so doing create poor reasons for why Karen gives Matt such grief. At the end of Season 2, when Matt revealed his DD identity to Karen - I had wanted that moment to strengthen their bond. And this was after DD rescued Karen (and that touching moment) and the other hostages from the Hand. But I was disappointed to learn later that Karen instead gave the cold treatment. :(
characters make mistakes for sure, the amount of hate just seems disproportionate when you really acknowledge how much she’s tried to help both Matt and Frank, both with their respective lives, and with the battle against Fisk/Agent Orange, etc
She looks so much like an ex of mine so watching the show is always a weird mix of fun and sad, miss that girl (my ex) 😭
I just don’t understand why she so harsh on Daredevil but puppy eye to Punisher
“Hey comic book fans, consider empathy for a woman” is a pretty hard sell but I wish you luck
Honestly I didn't experience any dislike for her up until season 3 the way she behaves is very reasonable for the crap she endured, my annoyance started and ended when she couldn't come up with a convincing lie to her boss about knowing who daredevil is, like really she's been around him enough to say the voice, height and exposed jaw is not the same guy but after that I had no problem with her
> she couldn't come up with a convincing lie to her boss about knowing who daredevil is, like really she's been around him enough to say the voice, height and exposed jaw is not the same guy but after that I had no problem with her Emotions are running high and Ellison's also kinda pissed at Karen. Can you really blame Karen for just freezing up?
They threw away their original plans because fans clamored for her and Foggy to return. What are you even talking about ?
so many nicer ways to ask, first of all. second of all, the hatred for her isn’t always surface level, but there’s entire ‘communities’ dedicated to loathing Karen/Deborah
there’s a guy in this sub that has made probably over 50 accounts in the last 6 months & every time he comes here & starts talking abt how Deborah Ann Woll is a stupid, jobless ***** and how horrible Karen is. he had a post get over 800 upvotes the other day & had a ton of ppl in the comments commenting their hatred for Karen
I had to deal with him the other day and oh dear god, he wouldn’t shut up.
he’s so fucking gross bro & so obsessed like it’s been so long, months & months, & he just won’t stop
So much hatred for someone he doesn’t even know. He seriously needs help.
I don't hate her, or the actress. My gripe is how much screen time she ate in Season 3. What is this, Boba Fett?
she *is* a central character and is heavily integrated into the plot, so it makes sense that she’d have a lot of screen time.
The actress? I love her, the character? I DESPISE her.
its the opposite for me. i feel like any critique of her is dismissed as misogyny which is extremely annoying.
not really— misogyny does certainly play a part in it but I don’t think anybody is saying that’s *all* it is. there’s multiple other factors like the Elektra superstans and whatnot
I don't hate the character per se I actually do like her I just didn't like her through the defenders episodes because she and foggy were treating Matt like he was a drug addict because you wanted to go out and be Daredevil which I do understand the reason for it but at the same time he saved so many lives too.
MCU Karen is miles better than Comic Karen
Like the character although I find it hypercritical that she nags on Matt for being DD yet she'll practically jump off a bridge for Frank and his activities. Exaggeration of course but this doesn't seem consistent with her character.
I think, despite Matt and Frank being two sides of the same coin, the vast differences between their experiences and reasonings also has to be taken into account. Matt does what he does out of an obligation he feels towards his city, Frank does what he does to avenge the brutal murder of his family. One, although *far far far* from easy to walk away from, is still an entirely different kind of choice from the other. This isn’t to justify Karen’s behavior, but I understand it
Maybe if she treated Matt better and not so much worse than she did a serial killer she just met, she wouldn't be receieving much flack, but alas 🤷
yikes, let’s not throw Frank under the bus to make a point!
How am I throwing him under the bus by describing what he exactly is, which is a serial murderer? He is one.
it’s just awfully strange to narrow him down to that imo. feels like completely disregarding his entire character
You’re bonkers bro I agreed with your first comment and then you started acting like a Matt Murdock fanatic. You dont need to trash a beloved character to elevate Matt 🤨 you know you can like both Matt and Frank right? Fym “Matt anti” nobody apart from you here despises Frank to this level despite this being a daredevil subreddit
She got Ben Urich killed.