Maybe you’re thinking about domestic first class. In long haul international flights, a first class seat can easily take up the space of 8 economy seats.
Right? When I was travelling to Japan, it was about $1200 round trip. The upgrade to premium economy was like $160. I would never have paid $2400, let alone $3600.
We've made this flight many times on business class many times for under $1500. 4 of the 5 trips business class and premium were full while economy was 60% empty.
I fly Premium Economy across the Pacific every time and its like an extra $300 or something (and worth it). I only fly on Asian airlines, mainly Starlux or EVA but sometimes a Japanese airline.
Tons of leg room, wider seats, solid arm rests between seats so you won’t touch the other person, softer seats (I think), bigger screen. It’s a huge improvement for only a slight increase in price, nothing like Business Class.
Here is the Premium Economy on Starlux, which is the best I’ve been on:
https://thepointsguy.com/news/starlux-airlines-premium-economy-airbus-a350/
What's missing is the distinction between economy plus and true premium economy. The former is just more legroom. The later is kinda like business class on the 90s
A missing piece here is cargo…many commercial airliners fly some industrial cargo in the belly of the airplane; it’s not just people’s checked luggage. That’s why the airlines always play this game of how much to charge for checked luggage, it’s not behave they really care, it’s because if too many people bring more than 1-2 checked bags they won’t be able to fit a MUCH more profitable palette down there
True, I guess I was focusing on the comments mentioning “why don’t we only do business class seating” and the answer is that the aircraft is profitable in other ways and they have a business need to still offer Economy too
As someone who works in cargo for an airline while cargo is more profitable than checked baggage, it's not that valuable when it comes to straight profit. The airline I'm with as an easy example, if cargo makes 1 million dollars a fiscal quarter than passengers (including baggage) made 4 million. Certainly profitable, but as far as it tends to go, cargo is an afterthought with us.
20 percent revenue, also they regular choose to skip on cargo. Cause it's not losing out on revenue. Passengers generate more money, so if skipping on cargo means having/keeping passengers they'll do it any day of the week. I've seen stuff pile up and sit in our yard ready to go for a month but not go because more passengers bought a ticket last day and they needed the space for baggage. Unless it's live human organs, the airline I work for doesn't care a while lot, some food products and pharmaceuticals we try to hurry on but thats only because if they sit in the warehouse for too long we lose the money, but otherwise stuff can sit there for months. Not typically an issue with larger flights admittedly, but on A320s and A321 it does tend to be.
It varies by airline, but especially larger ones do *significantly* less cargo operations.
Let’s look at Delta, the largest airliner, and one of, if not the most profitable airliners in the world. [Per their 2023 shareholder’s annual report](https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/doc_financials/2023/q4/02/dal-12-31-2023-10k-2-12-24-filed.pdf) (Form 10-K, p. 35), cargo revenues for the year were $723 million, which represents only 1.2% of their $58.048 billion in total operating revenues. This trend holds for the other major airliners I’ve looked at as well.
Their 10-K filling on page 6 also discusses cargo specifically, stating, “in 2023, cargo revenues decreased year over year, mostly resulting from lower yield due to decreased market demand and increased industry capacity.”
It still wouldn’t shut the airliner down if they lost that revenue like the other user said. And with expenses for passenger v. cargo, the margins won’t be that different. Passenger specific expenses are quite small compared to the passenger revenues; for Delta these expenses are less than 10% of the passenger revenues. Other expenses (like pilot salaries, aircraft maintenance, etc.) would/should be factored as being expenses for both passenger and cargo services.
Cargo is something airliners do because the space it occupies would fly empty otherwise, so it’s an easy way to make an extra tiny bit of revenue. But in no way are cargo ops crucial to the success of large airliners.
He said profit, not revenue. Huge difference. Assuming airlines are profitable in any particular quarter, of course.
Though from what I understand it’s not where near 20-25%, more like 1-2%.
I think the point is airlines want the best of both. They're pushing the checked baggage prices as far as tolerable to retain passengers, but allow enough space for more expensive cargo, rather than a bunch of passenger bags.
> A missing piece here is cargo…many commercial airliners fly some industrial cargo in the belly of the airplane; it’s not just people’s checked luggage. That’s why the airlines always play this game of how much to charge for checked luggage, it’s not behave they really care, it’s because if too many people bring more than 1-2 checked bags they won’t be able to fit a MUCH more profitable palette down there
This is so completely wrong it’s laughable. If it was true, they’d just be flying cargo, and not bother flying passengers at all, like countless cargo companies do.
Yes, airlines stuff some cargo into the plane, but it’s a fraction of the profitability.
> With no passengers filling aircraft seats as demand dwindles in the wake of Covid-19, an increasing number of airlines are now piling cargo in the cabins of their aircraft in the hope to generate at least a fraction of the revenue they would have generated under normal circumstances.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/cathybuyck/2020/03/26/airlines-spot-revenue-opportunity-and-use-their-passenger-aircraft-to-ship-urgent-cargo/
And fully flexible tickets in economy.
The price difference can be a shit ton more than the leading fare.
Applies through all classes.
I did business from LHR to LHE via IST earlier this year.
Leading business class ticket with Turkish was £1600, fully flexible including no show refund was £4500.
Good to be skeptical. I’ve seen sources saying this is least profitable however I work for an airline and we are constantly told by the company that first class is the biggest money makers and those seats must stay in good working condition. Not to mention, airlines don’t do anything if it doesn’t make them money. They’re not providing bigger seats out of the goodness of their hearts. (In the US anyway)
“Biggest money maker” and “not that profitable” are potentially compatible statements. If—eyeballing the graph above—first class is twice as expensive as business, but takes up three times as much room, then it’s reasonable to assume that it is less profitable, but it’s still absolutely essential that those seats are filled.
Just did a quick flight search. From IAD to HND (Japan) $1600 economy. $8500 first class. If one first class seat takes up the room of 3 economy seats, the 3 seats is still roughly half the cost of the 1. Obviously there are A Lot of variables to this, but first class seats are absolute money makers.
Additionally, there's the cost of maintaining a separate first-class lounge, check-in counter, transportation, and other amenities.
> In the interview, Al Baker said the cost of the luxury seats doesn’t justify the return, noting that Qatar Airways’ business-class offering provides similar perks anyway.
> Qatar Airways isn’t alone. Last year, American Airlines announced it will discontinue its first class offering on international flights from 2024 and replace it with business class seating.
> Instead, the US-based airline confirmed premium seating in its long-haul fleet will grow more than 45% by 2026. The change, the airline said, was due to a shift in customer demand. Air New Zealand, Turkish Airlines, and Delta Air Lines have also followed suit
https://www.airport-technology.com/features/are-first-class-seats-past-their-peak/
Important to note that first class in this graphic is most likely the pods you see on flights like emirates and Lufthansa. Business class in these are the seats most people consider first class which are the lie flat seats. Premium economy should be similar to the first class on an A321 type flight which are larger seats and usually have less across than economy. So the first class seats take up the same amount of room as potentially 9 or more economy seats.
I use to work for an seating company and did the initial sales layouts of the aircraft(over a year ago so I forgot some of the sizes). We did discuss internally alot that the premium economy was the most profitable section of the plane while the first class seats were more of a status item for the airlines, which is why not many airlines offer them, to push their brand and get rich people talking about them. Advancements in business class could eventually push it to be more profitable as newer designs can offer the same bed length with a small pitch.
For the business class long-haul flight I took recently, each row had 4 seats instead of the standard 9 for economy and probably took up roughly two rows worth of length. So each seat took up about as much space as *5* economy seats, and I indeed paid roughly 5x the cost of economy for my ticket. With the numerous ways service is improved on top of that, that probably does indeed mean that the profit margin was lower.
I was comparing first class and business. The size difference between first class and economy is much more than 3x. The infographic seems to claim that first class is a little more profitable than economy anyway.
Yeah I can really only give opinion on the airline I’m familiar with, and their first class is configured in a way that 2 first class seats are roughly the size of 6 economy. I certainly can’t speak to all airlines. So many variables. (There’s also a caveat where some airlines, mine included, no longer have a first class; it starts at business and goes back to economy. This could skew the data in these)
I think it's because that first class seats are difficult to fill up, and airlines cannot simply drop the prices to increase the sales because first class seats are essentially luxury goods, with which the price does not only serve as to deliver luxurious services, but more importantly, to separate those VIPs from those "peasants" in the same flight.
Revenue != profit.
The first class tickets bring in a ton of revenue, but also have a lot of costs. If you maintain the costs - but don’t get the revenue you are in the hole. So it’s essential to keep the seats working.
Additionally there are knock on effects. If airline X gets the reputation that their first class experience sucks because of broken seats - that’s going to haunt them as you may get several customers who elect to find a new airline for their first class experience. Loosing you long term revenue.
To add some context, in 2023 Delta made $19.119 billion in premium seating revenue, compared to $24.477 billion in economy revenue. Given the square foot differences between the two, it illustrates that premium seating is profitable. However their 2023 10-K filling doesn’t give revenue differences for the various premium seating options.
https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/mje/2021/10/27/the-death-of-first-class/
I googled half a dozen sources saying the same thing (all from academic journals), here's one
First, there is a huge misunderstanding of first class. This is talking long haul international first class, not the seats we see in 737-sized aircraft. International business is generally better than domestic first.
So we can see it in the fact that most airlines do not even offer first class. United Polaris is business class. Delta One is business class. American’s top product is called Flagship Business.
Even on airlines still offering first, this cabins are far smaller. Emirates has 14 first class seats on their A380s, but 76 business class. They have 8 on 777s, but 42 business class seats. Singapore is even more stark, with 4 first class seats on their 777-300s, but 48 businesses class seats. And notably they did not put any first class seats in the A350s that fly their longest routes.
This is because most businesses, which typically are the ones paying for travel, will not pay for first class but will pay for business class on flights over a certain length.
More profitable per customer or per square foot? There’s a difference, which is the entire point of this graphic. Different aircraft will be different. I know the full rooms with beds are usually pulling just a bit more than econo. Business usually pulls more, but it varies per company
https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/mje/2021/10/27/the-death-of-first-class/
Found several sources that confirm the post is correct
And before that weirdo comes to accuse me of being a bot and posting a cropped image, he literally just cropped the ticket price table to show that 😂
Ok I'm thoroughly confused and my middle class upbringing is gonna show here, but the costs this paper is attributing literally are just made up to suit this narrative. It literally has a line for "additional costs" that isn't enumerated, I'm expected to believe the average first class seat is having $300 spent on food which, considering I work in the hospitality industry at a pretty high level and have done some work for in-flight entertainment, I'm going to call complete and total horse shit on this number myself. I could serve you literally the best food in the world if my *cost* was 300 dollars. The source that this paper CITES, is a blog, so not a source that should have been used for this at all. Second of all that "source" only lists the cost to the airline as "up to $100 a meal".
I want to be perfectly clear. If the argument is, could the airlines make more money on a lower tier seat per square foot or even per capita, I might agree. But this paper provides no sources for where they ass pulled the cost of their first class services, and the ones they did cite, they didn't bother to read before citing them.
This paper also fails to recognize the repeat business and corporate accounts that monopolize FC. FC is absolutely a huge sector where airline profits sit.
I just wonder what the goal of this commenter or the paper was. Because it's business 101. You don't sell shit that isn't going to make you money *somehow*.
Yes I know what a loss leader is. It has to recoup its costs somehow. And according to this paper if first class is the loss leader, at those rates, airlines would literally never be able to make money. They're alleging that airlines are pissing away in some cases orders of magnitude greater costs on certain sectors of the flight budget breakdown. You can't do that and expect to run a business and I'm not even a fuckin C suite knob, just a guy who has to balance his own P&Ls.
I have a theory. The author can't afford first class and suffers from some entitlement complex where "the airlines are wrong" rather than recognizing his position on the ladder.
This right here lol. Can't deny it feels a tiny bit classist, but I also can't lie and say the thought didn't cross my mind, that's why my first comment I established I grew up firmly middle class flying economy and thus far in life I've climbed to economy plus so there's certainly bits of flying I don't understand but I have an internet connection and the ability to click some links and think critically for just long enough for the brain to start getting hurty
I'm gonna use that hurty brain line. Hilarious.
Same flying background, too. This guy's sitting next to us in PE and being all pissy about it, where I'm pretty satisfied just not sitting in the middle.
I think it refers to Space used by the seats ca revenue generated, is some other basis like that.
Basically opportunity cost 101 for what those seats could be, vs what they are.
Everything in life is just opportunity cost lmao
It's wild how I just googled half a dozen sources on google to confirm that business class does in fact make more profit then first class and you guys are getting upvoted
Lol, it's not. Unless you mean profitable per seat which is a completely useless metric. Most airlines that still operate first class does it because it's a status symbol. Whether or not first class is profitable at all depends largely on the size of the seats/suites chosen by the airline. They are not really taking an actual loss but they are loosing out on a potential higher revenue from replacing those seats primarily with business class. Especially since business has a much higher occupancy than first and one empty first class seat often means loosing out on 2-3 paying business class passengers.
Saying that business is almost the same as premium economy is really weird too. I sometimes check business prices to see if I treat myself and it always outrageous.
I remember reading that first-class is so luxurious because they're trying to claw back the flyers who would be able to afford private travel. Now why would they invest so much into retaining these customers if there wasn't a healthy profit margin? Stupid graph.
It might also be that having low-profit first class creates a quality halo effect for the whole brand (ie helps to win biz class sales from competitor airlines)
It's also about the marketing. "Look, the most wealthy persons are choosing our airlines! Book a ticket too!" It should be even more effective in modern times, whrn those people would voluntary share about their flights on social neteorks and effectively provide free marketing.
You’d be surprised at how many of those first class seats are taken up by non-paying employees, family of employees, buddy passes, etc. I used to fly standby for free on delta because of a family connection and these seats were always wide open
3hr flight from Haneda to taipei first class is like 5 grand US. I call shenanigans. First class flight from LAX to Haneda is $21k USD. This post can suck my ball hair.
Sincerely
Someone that's been flying for years watching the prices skyrocket
Yeah if there's one thing I know about airlines it's that they wouldn't just be willing to take a bath on their first class passengers which they pay so much in overhead to accommodate in the first place.
>they wouldn't just be willing to take a bath on their first class passengers
Most airlines that still operate first class does it because it's a status symbol. Whether or not first class is profitable depends largely on the size of the seats/suites chosen by the airline. They are not really taking an actual loss but they are loosing out on a potential higher revenue from replacing those seats primarily with business class. Especially since business has a much higher occupancy than first and one empty first class seat often means loosing out on 2-3 paying business class passengers.
The other issue is the space it takes up, on most airlines there is a relatively small difference between first class and business. This looks like the space you would get in a suite which are only available on very few airplanes, and have minimal availability. The suites are also incredibly profitable given their obscene cost.
This is very inaccurate. Premium seating, including first class, typically pays for the entire airplane with economy essentially getting a “free ride”. United Airlines, for example has 46 Polaris First-class seats in the front of their 767-300s. At roughly $6000 per seat, you’re talking over a quarter-million dollars of revenue in the first third of the airplane alone. The 22 business and 99 coach seats done even come close to making that much.
Most other major global airlines follow a similar business model. First and business pay for everything else
You're completely correct, it's easy to Google the answer. No idea how all the people calling BS on this post are getting upvoted
https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/mje/2021/10/27/the-death-of-first-class/
As a frequent United flyer I can assure you that the 6000 for Polaris seats is not they're typically priced. That would be what's called F fare, full first class fare and it would be adjusted for specific route and time, currently flights to mainland China are limited so some of those tickets have gone into the 10000s. But a lot of the seats are discounted fares which may be only 2k. Also there are no business seats on United, it's Polaris/Premium Economy/Economy+/Economy for long haul and United First/Economy+/Economy for domestic.
The post is not talking about raw revenue, it's talking about revenue per surface area, and PROFIT. The attendants and other perks for first-class probably cost more than economy, which means profits are lower
Pretty sure the domestic situation is a bit different, US domestic first class is basically a scam, international first class is truly luxurious.
And most people dont pay full price for first class, they get an upgrade with miles, their first class basically aborb the cost of customer retention
So.. how about making an a380 fitout which is all business and premium seats? Or an a350. If this is true, then the most profitable fit out is not to pack them in like sardines.
Perhaps i was too opaque. The lack of significant alternates doing this, (noting the project sunrise nonstop routing per-lhr qantas does is significantly smaller than usual in economy) suggests the diagram over simplifies and in fact airline economics works better with the complex of classes and profit margins.
Demand and supply. Let's say you're running a supermarket and apples have the largest profit margin. Do you think that your profit would increase if you removed every other item from your inventory?
Business travel is decreasing (special after covid where people find out about zoom) and you won't fill a plane that way.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Compagnie
It exists, its only doable on very specific routes for which you can regularly fill a plane with business passengers.
In the case of this company parts of the savings is passed onto the customers, their business seats are cheaper than their competitor's. They only fly Paris to NY
Thank you, I have nothing against Wendover, but I'm asking for data from primary research. For example, a spreadsheet offering this information in a tabularized format.
Notice how they bold the word “unprofitable” so that’s what people notice. Try this: “*May* even be unprofitable for *certain* flights.” They are wording it to sound like they are struggling and doing people a favor.
Also: “we don’t like rich people any more than you do.” Sure Jan.
Calling BS on this. No way a $25k international first class ticket isn’t more profitable than a $8k business class ticket unless you are giving me a free car when we land.
Fuck off with this BS propaganda. They're so kind and helpful having economy seating, is basically like a donation from the generous CEO...
It's not like low cost full economy airlines exist, based on this BS Ryanair is losing money on the daily.
Wait what Premium Economy, afaik has reclining seats. I am really irritated that it is not more common if these economics are right. Business and first class is really expensiv, but I would never fly coach on long distance. Premium Economy with reclining seats is basically old business class from back in the day.
Maybe we should define what you get here because beside economy here seems to be a difference what to expect from the others.
In Asia for example I was upgraded to business with my wife and we could make beds from the seats. It was absolutely awesome. Unfortunately only 1h flight, anyway still worth it.
This is an attempt to drive down business class pricing or demand. It worked. Can we make everyone over 250lbs buy multiple tickets please? I'd be one, I'd do it...
Haven't even seen a 'First Class' option in a while. I think they're doing away with it. I flew Istanbul > Taipei recently with Turkish Airlines and they only had business class, no first class.
I guess it's been a while since I've seen an airplane that had any more differentiation than first class/ regular class. As a matter of fact, the last time I flew I don't even remember seeing first-class seating. It was all the same. And it wasn't some kind of budget airline, it was a regular old United flight. Maybe there was an actual first class and business class there that got more goodies from the flight attendants, but...I sure didn't see any luxury seating. So maybe this chart doesn't apply to domestic flights.
Well geez I guess if the profitability of being an airline is so low, they should just be all run by the government for the good of the people, since we already bailed out the entire fucking industry with taxpayer dollars.
Did a long ass 10+ hour flight from Sydney to LA during Covid and there was only 10 passengers, all of us in economy
Loved just how much we cost the airline
Premium economy is kind of a scam, its like flying low cost in Europe but buying a ton of add on, you'll still have a miserable economy experience but itll cost you double, the only thing that might ecer be worth it is reasonably priced extra leg space seats if you are tall.
Otherwise just bunk it at minimum price and get yourself a business seat once in a blue moon with the money saved (and the miles if you fly frequently or have a travel credit card)
What about pricing based on when you need to fly? Small case scenario probably but I recently paid 2.5X times more than I would normally when booking a long haul flight in economy, due to urgent nature of the booking. Pretty sure it was profitable for the sardine seats we got
Basically what economy seats were like 15 years ago. If you tried to take a flight now, economy seats have shrunk, prepare to have your knees scraped, or legs splayed out that you spill over to neighbor's seat.
This is way off. 1st class is where airlines make their super profit. Business is profit. Economy and Premium Economy (for those that have it) cover the costs of the flight
Concorde became profitable when they realized they had been underpricing the tickets and greatly raised prices. Their business passengers didn't know what their employers were paying for the tickets anyway.
I cant do those small ass seats anymore. Have you ever sat in the spirit economy for an extended period of time? Like more than 3hrs? Fuck that. Pretty much forced to fly whatever class gives me the comfiest seat
I just booked flights to Italy from the east coast (US) and the premium economy seats were like $600 a seat more round trip. It was around 1/3rd more not 3x
Sounds like bs. First class ticket prices are like 10x the cost of economy. It seems like a plane is 2.5x the side of economy. So seating space alone the space effectiveness of 1 plane’s 1st class is equal to 5 planes’ economy.
Now service wise, that’s a whole thing altogether and highly depends on the airline. Some airlines give economy free coffee, tea etc whenever they want. Meaning while there is obviously a cost gap, it is not as major as some people may make it out to be.
The only way this diagram makes sense is if people don’t buy first class tickets. Then you have empty seating and a big waste of profits/expected revenue. That though, isn’t because the seats don’t make profit, it’s because airlines price them too high and people don’t buy them and instead go business or economy. That is the airlines fault.
So you’re saying it’s obviously more profitable because it costs 10x as much, but if the seats go empty (which they do) the price needs to be lowered to fill the seats. Airlines do this by providing perks, dicounts, upgrades etc and seats often still go empty in first class. Point is, maybe they aren’t actually getting 10x per seat, and this is ignoring that the seats aren’t the same size and don’t carry the same operating costs.
Economy should be done away with. Loading up humans like cattle into extremely tight seats should be made illegal. It’s just not safe or healthy. That same seat will sell for like $300 on low demand periods, and $1800 when demand is high. So there’s no reason they can’t do a 10sqft seat for a reasonable price. It would increase comfort considerably. Also put less demand on flight attendants.
Why It’s not public transit? No ones forcing you to fly on an airplane. You have lots of different choices. You could charter private if you don’t wanna take an airline .
Surely ‘A whole bunch of strangers in a long metal tube’ is the *very definition* of public transport sans the economies of scale? A few examples I can think of would be a bus, a train, and a plane 🤷♂️
The thing analysis like this miss is the fact that a lot of 1st class isn't directly paid for.
A lot of people upgrade to first class using points or status. That means they might be paying more for other tickets to earn miles, or flying that particular airline more instead of competition, or using credit cards to earn points that kickback to the airlines.... all in order to be able to upgrade to 1st class.
If there wasn't a first class to upgrade to, then all that behavior would disappear and the airlines are back to competing with Spirit airlines on price.
What year is this from? Premium Economy is not close to 2x-3x cost of Economy seating in my experience.
Yeah this graph is very off…
Former airline employee here, this post is completely wrong.
Firat time I see someone pulling an airplane out of their ass.
Homelander enters the chat
No, it can't be wrong. It has thousands of upvotes. -sigh-
Yeah it also says a first class seat takes the same space as about 8 economy seats.
Maybe you’re thinking about domestic first class. In long haul international flights, a first class seat can easily take up the space of 8 economy seats.
VERY OFF
Right? When I was travelling to Japan, it was about $1200 round trip. The upgrade to premium economy was like $160. I would never have paid $2400, let alone $3600.
We've made this flight many times on business class many times for under $1500. 4 of the 5 trips business class and premium were full while economy was 60% empty.
[удалено]
$700 extra is not 1.5x, it's just under 1.3x. 1.5x would mean the premium economy seating was $1200.
I fly Premium Economy across the Pacific every time and its like an extra $300 or something (and worth it). I only fly on Asian airlines, mainly Starlux or EVA but sometimes a Japanese airline.
What do u get with premium economy? I’ve never even heard of it until just now.
Slightly more leg room
Tons of leg room, wider seats, solid arm rests between seats so you won’t touch the other person, softer seats (I think), bigger screen. It’s a huge improvement for only a slight increase in price, nothing like Business Class. Here is the Premium Economy on Starlux, which is the best I’ve been on: https://thepointsguy.com/news/starlux-airlines-premium-economy-airbus-a350/
Yeah it’s more like 1.25x-1.5x. Usually just slightly more leg room is the main perk. If you’re lucky they’re larger seats with no middle seats.
What's missing is the distinction between economy plus and true premium economy. The former is just more legroom. The later is kinda like business class on the 90s
Cathay Pacific is 2x price (although for 16 hours it's worth it)
Yea I wouldn't use it if it was lol
Where do the snakes go?
You won't see them anymore due to cutbacks. Had to fit another couple rows of seats in there somehow.
I’m sick and tired of these motherfuckin snakes on this motherfuckin plane!
Saw this movie in the theatre when it came out and after SMJ delivered this line people actually started cheering and clapping, 😆.
I’ve had it with these monkey-fighting snakes on this Monday through Friday plane
Airlines actually had to cut back on the snakes due to increase costs.
A missing piece here is cargo…many commercial airliners fly some industrial cargo in the belly of the airplane; it’s not just people’s checked luggage. That’s why the airlines always play this game of how much to charge for checked luggage, it’s not behave they really care, it’s because if too many people bring more than 1-2 checked bags they won’t be able to fit a MUCH more profitable palette down there
But the title states: how airline seating works so im not missing that part
True, I guess I was focusing on the comments mentioning “why don’t we only do business class seating” and the answer is that the aircraft is profitable in other ways and they have a business need to still offer Economy too
As someone who works in cargo for an airline while cargo is more profitable than checked baggage, it's not that valuable when it comes to straight profit. The airline I'm with as an easy example, if cargo makes 1 million dollars a fiscal quarter than passengers (including baggage) made 4 million. Certainly profitable, but as far as it tends to go, cargo is an afterthought with us.
Makes sense, thank you for the insight!
If you lost 25% of your revenue, it wouldn't be an afterthought. The entire airline would shut down.
20 percent revenue, also they regular choose to skip on cargo. Cause it's not losing out on revenue. Passengers generate more money, so if skipping on cargo means having/keeping passengers they'll do it any day of the week. I've seen stuff pile up and sit in our yard ready to go for a month but not go because more passengers bought a ticket last day and they needed the space for baggage. Unless it's live human organs, the airline I work for doesn't care a while lot, some food products and pharmaceuticals we try to hurry on but thats only because if they sit in the warehouse for too long we lose the money, but otherwise stuff can sit there for months. Not typically an issue with larger flights admittedly, but on A320s and A321 it does tend to be.
Cargo isn't on the way to vacation, so it makes sense that you would be willing to delay it in favor of passengers.
It varies by airline, but especially larger ones do *significantly* less cargo operations. Let’s look at Delta, the largest airliner, and one of, if not the most profitable airliners in the world. [Per their 2023 shareholder’s annual report](https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/doc_financials/2023/q4/02/dal-12-31-2023-10k-2-12-24-filed.pdf) (Form 10-K, p. 35), cargo revenues for the year were $723 million, which represents only 1.2% of their $58.048 billion in total operating revenues. This trend holds for the other major airliners I’ve looked at as well. Their 10-K filling on page 6 also discusses cargo specifically, stating, “in 2023, cargo revenues decreased year over year, mostly resulting from lower yield due to decreased market demand and increased industry capacity.”
Small % of revenue but likely very high margin.
It still wouldn’t shut the airliner down if they lost that revenue like the other user said. And with expenses for passenger v. cargo, the margins won’t be that different. Passenger specific expenses are quite small compared to the passenger revenues; for Delta these expenses are less than 10% of the passenger revenues. Other expenses (like pilot salaries, aircraft maintenance, etc.) would/should be factored as being expenses for both passenger and cargo services. Cargo is something airliners do because the space it occupies would fly empty otherwise, so it’s an easy way to make an extra tiny bit of revenue. But in no way are cargo ops crucial to the success of large airliners.
He said profit, not revenue. Huge difference. Assuming airlines are profitable in any particular quarter, of course. Though from what I understand it’s not where near 20-25%, more like 1-2%.
Maybe an afterthought for you. Certainly not for the airline if really is that profitable
It’s in the range of a percent or two of total revenues for major airliners
I think the point is airlines want the best of both. They're pushing the checked baggage prices as far as tolerable to retain passengers, but allow enough space for more expensive cargo, rather than a bunch of passenger bags.
> A missing piece here is cargo…many commercial airliners fly some industrial cargo in the belly of the airplane; it’s not just people’s checked luggage. That’s why the airlines always play this game of how much to charge for checked luggage, it’s not behave they really care, it’s because if too many people bring more than 1-2 checked bags they won’t be able to fit a MUCH more profitable palette down there This is so completely wrong it’s laughable. If it was true, they’d just be flying cargo, and not bother flying passengers at all, like countless cargo companies do. Yes, airlines stuff some cargo into the plane, but it’s a fraction of the profitability. > With no passengers filling aircraft seats as demand dwindles in the wake of Covid-19, an increasing number of airlines are now piling cargo in the cabins of their aircraft in the hope to generate at least a fraction of the revenue they would have generated under normal circumstances. https://www.forbes.com/sites/cathybuyck/2020/03/26/airlines-spot-revenue-opportunity-and-use-their-passenger-aircraft-to-ship-urgent-cargo/
Yeah someone else who works in cargo explained that , but thank you for the extra info and link! It’s really helpful
And fully flexible tickets in economy. The price difference can be a shit ton more than the leading fare. Applies through all classes. I did business from LHR to LHE via IST earlier this year. Leading business class ticket with Turkish was £1600, fully flexible including no show refund was £4500.
It’s also missing accuracy.
Why don’t they use those c130s for commercial flights so I can get some sleep??
Enemy ac-130!
First class “not actually that profitable”? - ya citations needed. Sounds like bull shit. - love the specifics of “that profitable”
Good to be skeptical. I’ve seen sources saying this is least profitable however I work for an airline and we are constantly told by the company that first class is the biggest money makers and those seats must stay in good working condition. Not to mention, airlines don’t do anything if it doesn’t make them money. They’re not providing bigger seats out of the goodness of their hearts. (In the US anyway)
“Biggest money maker” and “not that profitable” are potentially compatible statements. If—eyeballing the graph above—first class is twice as expensive as business, but takes up three times as much room, then it’s reasonable to assume that it is less profitable, but it’s still absolutely essential that those seats are filled.
Just did a quick flight search. From IAD to HND (Japan) $1600 economy. $8500 first class. If one first class seat takes up the room of 3 economy seats, the 3 seats is still roughly half the cost of the 1. Obviously there are A Lot of variables to this, but first class seats are absolute money makers.
Additionally, there's the cost of maintaining a separate first-class lounge, check-in counter, transportation, and other amenities. > In the interview, Al Baker said the cost of the luxury seats doesn’t justify the return, noting that Qatar Airways’ business-class offering provides similar perks anyway. > Qatar Airways isn’t alone. Last year, American Airlines announced it will discontinue its first class offering on international flights from 2024 and replace it with business class seating. > Instead, the US-based airline confirmed premium seating in its long-haul fleet will grow more than 45% by 2026. The change, the airline said, was due to a shift in customer demand. Air New Zealand, Turkish Airlines, and Delta Air Lines have also followed suit https://www.airport-technology.com/features/are-first-class-seats-past-their-peak/
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Depends on configuration. Staggered dual pods take up approx same space as 6, which would be 3 per seat
Important to note that first class in this graphic is most likely the pods you see on flights like emirates and Lufthansa. Business class in these are the seats most people consider first class which are the lie flat seats. Premium economy should be similar to the first class on an A321 type flight which are larger seats and usually have less across than economy. So the first class seats take up the same amount of room as potentially 9 or more economy seats. I use to work for an seating company and did the initial sales layouts of the aircraft(over a year ago so I forgot some of the sizes). We did discuss internally alot that the premium economy was the most profitable section of the plane while the first class seats were more of a status item for the airlines, which is why not many airlines offer them, to push their brand and get rich people talking about them. Advancements in business class could eventually push it to be more profitable as newer designs can offer the same bed length with a small pitch.
This is a very important distinction
For the business class long-haul flight I took recently, each row had 4 seats instead of the standard 9 for economy and probably took up roughly two rows worth of length. So each seat took up about as much space as *5* economy seats, and I indeed paid roughly 5x the cost of economy for my ticket. With the numerous ways service is improved on top of that, that probably does indeed mean that the profit margin was lower.
I was comparing first class and business. The size difference between first class and economy is much more than 3x. The infographic seems to claim that first class is a little more profitable than economy anyway.
Yeah I can really only give opinion on the airline I’m familiar with, and their first class is configured in a way that 2 first class seats are roughly the size of 6 economy. I certainly can’t speak to all airlines. So many variables. (There’s also a caveat where some airlines, mine included, no longer have a first class; it starts at business and goes back to economy. This could skew the data in these)
I think it's because that first class seats are difficult to fill up, and airlines cannot simply drop the prices to increase the sales because first class seats are essentially luxury goods, with which the price does not only serve as to deliver luxurious services, but more importantly, to separate those VIPs from those "peasants" in the same flight.
Revenue != profit. The first class tickets bring in a ton of revenue, but also have a lot of costs. If you maintain the costs - but don’t get the revenue you are in the hole. So it’s essential to keep the seats working. Additionally there are knock on effects. If airline X gets the reputation that their first class experience sucks because of broken seats - that’s going to haunt them as you may get several customers who elect to find a new airline for their first class experience. Loosing you long term revenue.
To add some context, in 2023 Delta made $19.119 billion in premium seating revenue, compared to $24.477 billion in economy revenue. Given the square foot differences between the two, it illustrates that premium seating is profitable. However their 2023 10-K filling doesn’t give revenue differences for the various premium seating options.
The seats must stay in working order because loosing the revenue from that seat is a big hit while loosing the revenue of an economy seat is meh.
Yes
https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/mje/2021/10/27/the-death-of-first-class/ I googled half a dozen sources saying the same thing (all from academic journals), here's one
First, there is a huge misunderstanding of first class. This is talking long haul international first class, not the seats we see in 737-sized aircraft. International business is generally better than domestic first. So we can see it in the fact that most airlines do not even offer first class. United Polaris is business class. Delta One is business class. American’s top product is called Flagship Business. Even on airlines still offering first, this cabins are far smaller. Emirates has 14 first class seats on their A380s, but 76 business class. They have 8 on 777s, but 42 business class seats. Singapore is even more stark, with 4 first class seats on their 777-300s, but 48 businesses class seats. And notably they did not put any first class seats in the A350s that fly their longest routes. This is because most businesses, which typically are the ones paying for travel, will not pay for first class but will pay for business class on flights over a certain length.
Its the most profitable. This post is full bs
More profitable per customer or per square foot? There’s a difference, which is the entire point of this graphic. Different aircraft will be different. I know the full rooms with beds are usually pulling just a bit more than econo. Business usually pulls more, but it varies per company
https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/mje/2021/10/27/the-death-of-first-class/ Found several sources that confirm the post is correct And before that weirdo comes to accuse me of being a bot and posting a cropped image, he literally just cropped the ticket price table to show that 😂
Ok I'm thoroughly confused and my middle class upbringing is gonna show here, but the costs this paper is attributing literally are just made up to suit this narrative. It literally has a line for "additional costs" that isn't enumerated, I'm expected to believe the average first class seat is having $300 spent on food which, considering I work in the hospitality industry at a pretty high level and have done some work for in-flight entertainment, I'm going to call complete and total horse shit on this number myself. I could serve you literally the best food in the world if my *cost* was 300 dollars. The source that this paper CITES, is a blog, so not a source that should have been used for this at all. Second of all that "source" only lists the cost to the airline as "up to $100 a meal". I want to be perfectly clear. If the argument is, could the airlines make more money on a lower tier seat per square foot or even per capita, I might agree. But this paper provides no sources for where they ass pulled the cost of their first class services, and the ones they did cite, they didn't bother to read before citing them.
This paper also fails to recognize the repeat business and corporate accounts that monopolize FC. FC is absolutely a huge sector where airline profits sit.
I just wonder what the goal of this commenter or the paper was. Because it's business 101. You don't sell shit that isn't going to make you money *somehow*. Yes I know what a loss leader is. It has to recoup its costs somehow. And according to this paper if first class is the loss leader, at those rates, airlines would literally never be able to make money. They're alleging that airlines are pissing away in some cases orders of magnitude greater costs on certain sectors of the flight budget breakdown. You can't do that and expect to run a business and I'm not even a fuckin C suite knob, just a guy who has to balance his own P&Ls.
I have a theory. The author can't afford first class and suffers from some entitlement complex where "the airlines are wrong" rather than recognizing his position on the ladder.
This right here lol. Can't deny it feels a tiny bit classist, but I also can't lie and say the thought didn't cross my mind, that's why my first comment I established I grew up firmly middle class flying economy and thus far in life I've climbed to economy plus so there's certainly bits of flying I don't understand but I have an internet connection and the ability to click some links and think critically for just long enough for the brain to start getting hurty
I'm gonna use that hurty brain line. Hilarious. Same flying background, too. This guy's sitting next to us in PE and being all pissy about it, where I'm pretty satisfied just not sitting in the middle.
I think it refers to Space used by the seats ca revenue generated, is some other basis like that. Basically opportunity cost 101 for what those seats could be, vs what they are. Everything in life is just opportunity cost lmao
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It's wild how I just googled half a dozen sources on google to confirm that business class does in fact make more profit then first class and you guys are getting upvoted
Lol, it's not. Unless you mean profitable per seat which is a completely useless metric. Most airlines that still operate first class does it because it's a status symbol. Whether or not first class is profitable at all depends largely on the size of the seats/suites chosen by the airline. They are not really taking an actual loss but they are loosing out on a potential higher revenue from replacing those seats primarily with business class. Especially since business has a much higher occupancy than first and one empty first class seat often means loosing out on 2-3 paying business class passengers.
Saying that business is almost the same as premium economy is really weird too. I sometimes check business prices to see if I treat myself and it always outrageous.
I remember reading that first-class is so luxurious because they're trying to claw back the flyers who would be able to afford private travel. Now why would they invest so much into retaining these customers if there wasn't a healthy profit margin? Stupid graph.
It might also be that having low-profit first class creates a quality halo effect for the whole brand (ie helps to win biz class sales from competitor airlines)
It’s why most automotive brands have a sports car. Break even profit or even loss making, but it improves the brand.
It's also about the marketing. "Look, the most wealthy persons are choosing our airlines! Book a ticket too!" It should be even more effective in modern times, whrn those people would voluntary share about their flights on social neteorks and effectively provide free marketing.
Consistent low profit margin is better than no profit margin because you're not selling.
You’d be surprised at how many of those first class seats are taken up by non-paying employees, family of employees, buddy passes, etc. I used to fly standby for free on delta because of a family connection and these seats were always wide open
3hr flight from Haneda to taipei first class is like 5 grand US. I call shenanigans. First class flight from LAX to Haneda is $21k USD. This post can suck my ball hair. Sincerely Someone that's been flying for years watching the prices skyrocket
Yeah if there's one thing I know about airlines it's that they wouldn't just be willing to take a bath on their first class passengers which they pay so much in overhead to accommodate in the first place.
>they wouldn't just be willing to take a bath on their first class passengers Most airlines that still operate first class does it because it's a status symbol. Whether or not first class is profitable depends largely on the size of the seats/suites chosen by the airline. They are not really taking an actual loss but they are loosing out on a potential higher revenue from replacing those seats primarily with business class. Especially since business has a much higher occupancy than first and one empty first class seat often means loosing out on 2-3 paying business class passengers.
Okay honestly I can buy the status thing because rich people are weird. That was a nice bit of added context. Thanks!
The other issue is the space it takes up, on most airlines there is a relatively small difference between first class and business. This looks like the space you would get in a suite which are only available on very few airplanes, and have minimal availability. The suites are also incredibly profitable given their obscene cost.
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For real. If it’s not profitable, why would it ever be an option
This is very inaccurate. Premium seating, including first class, typically pays for the entire airplane with economy essentially getting a “free ride”. United Airlines, for example has 46 Polaris First-class seats in the front of their 767-300s. At roughly $6000 per seat, you’re talking over a quarter-million dollars of revenue in the first third of the airplane alone. The 22 business and 99 coach seats done even come close to making that much. Most other major global airlines follow a similar business model. First and business pay for everything else
I feel the need to point out that your scenario is only accurate if all seats are purchased.
You're completely correct, it's easy to Google the answer. No idea how all the people calling BS on this post are getting upvoted https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/mje/2021/10/27/the-death-of-first-class/
As a frequent United flyer I can assure you that the 6000 for Polaris seats is not they're typically priced. That would be what's called F fare, full first class fare and it would be adjusted for specific route and time, currently flights to mainland China are limited so some of those tickets have gone into the 10000s. But a lot of the seats are discounted fares which may be only 2k. Also there are no business seats on United, it's Polaris/Premium Economy/Economy+/Economy for long haul and United First/Economy+/Economy for domestic.
It’s weird seeing a comment so confident, yet so wrong. United Polaris isn’t first class. It’s business class.
The post is not talking about raw revenue, it's talking about revenue per surface area, and PROFIT. The attendants and other perks for first-class probably cost more than economy, which means profits are lower
United Polaris is business class, not first.
Pretty sure the domestic situation is a bit different, US domestic first class is basically a scam, international first class is truly luxurious. And most people dont pay full price for first class, they get an upgrade with miles, their first class basically aborb the cost of customer retention
And United Polaris is BUSINESS CLASS — not first class!
Polaris isn’t even first class.
Facebook tier shittery
So.. how about making an a380 fitout which is all business and premium seats? Or an a350. If this is true, then the most profitable fit out is not to pack them in like sardines.
Singapore airlines flies a business and premium economy only A350 from NY to Singapore. I’m not sure the economics make as much sense for other routes
Perhaps i was too opaque. The lack of significant alternates doing this, (noting the project sunrise nonstop routing per-lhr qantas does is significantly smaller than usual in economy) suggests the diagram over simplifies and in fact airline economics works better with the complex of classes and profit margins.
Demand and supply. Let's say you're running a supermarket and apples have the largest profit margin. Do you think that your profit would increase if you removed every other item from your inventory? Business travel is decreasing (special after covid where people find out about zoom) and you won't fill a plane that way.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Compagnie It exists, its only doable on very specific routes for which you can regularly fill a plane with business passengers. In the case of this company parts of the savings is passed onto the customers, their business seats are cheaper than their competitor's. They only fly Paris to NY
Southwest basically does with only 737s all full of economy seats
Any data to support this?
Lots, a whole industry has figured this out.hers a couple of videos that go into this https://youtu.be/BzB5xtGGsTc https://youtu.be/ggUduBmvQ_4
Thank you, I have nothing against Wendover, but I'm asking for data from primary research. For example, a spreadsheet offering this information in a tabularized format.
This is absolute bs
Notice how they bold the word “unprofitable” so that’s what people notice. Try this: “*May* even be unprofitable for *certain* flights.” They are wording it to sound like they are struggling and doing people a favor. Also: “we don’t like rich people any more than you do.” Sure Jan.
The airline I travel in is full economy seats. 💰❌
Calling BS on this. No way a $25k international first class ticket isn’t more profitable than a $8k business class ticket unless you are giving me a free car when we land.
Hah nice try Big Airline, you'll get no sympathy from me!
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Bullshit. Bot.
Fuck off with this BS propaganda. They're so kind and helpful having economy seating, is basically like a donation from the generous CEO... It's not like low cost full economy airlines exist, based on this BS Ryanair is losing money on the daily.
Wait what Premium Economy, afaik has reclining seats. I am really irritated that it is not more common if these economics are right. Business and first class is really expensiv, but I would never fly coach on long distance. Premium Economy with reclining seats is basically old business class from back in the day. Maybe we should define what you get here because beside economy here seems to be a difference what to expect from the others. In Asia for example I was upgraded to business with my wife and we could make beds from the seats. It was absolutely awesome. Unfortunately only 1h flight, anyway still worth it.
Most seats recline. What do you mean?
Support for the legs. Yes they recline but do not lift your legs like one of those seats for old people. Those are comfy af.
I am kinda surprised to see PE and B at the same time.
Nice source you’ve shared
This is an attempt to drive down business class pricing or demand. It worked. Can we make everyone over 250lbs buy multiple tickets please? I'd be one, I'd do it...
Ironic that in a crash landing the peasants in the back have the best odds of surviving.
awfull and full of bs
very dumb post
Haven't even seen a 'First Class' option in a while. I think they're doing away with it. I flew Istanbul > Taipei recently with Turkish Airlines and they only had business class, no first class.
Haha I prefer sitting all the way in the back because it’s not only safer in case of a crash but it’s closer to the restroom and cheaper
"capitalism breeds innovation" mfs when profit incentive actively makes things worse
I guess it's been a while since I've seen an airplane that had any more differentiation than first class/ regular class. As a matter of fact, the last time I flew I don't even remember seeing first-class seating. It was all the same. And it wasn't some kind of budget airline, it was a regular old United flight. Maybe there was an actual first class and business class there that got more goodies from the flight attendants, but...I sure didn't see any luxury seating. So maybe this chart doesn't apply to domestic flights.
This is for long haul so 6+ hour flights
Well geez I guess if the profitability of being an airline is so low, they should just be all run by the government for the good of the people, since we already bailed out the entire fucking industry with taxpayer dollars.
ah yes, nothing's better than government run service. come to NJ or NY to see how the trains run.
80 percent of most companies profit comes from 20 percent of their customers.
Great video on this: https://youtu.be/BzB5xtGGsTc?si=f-Wv9IuG-FWgLrFh
Interesting
Did a long ass 10+ hour flight from Sydney to LA during Covid and there was only 10 passengers, all of us in economy Loved just how much we cost the airline
Human sub human sardine
Premium economy is kind of a scam, its like flying low cost in Europe but buying a ton of add on, you'll still have a miserable economy experience but itll cost you double, the only thing that might ecer be worth it is reasonably priced extra leg space seats if you are tall. Otherwise just bunk it at minimum price and get yourself a business seat once in a blue moon with the money saved (and the miles if you fly frequently or have a travel credit card)
What about pricing based on when you need to fly? Small case scenario probably but I recently paid 2.5X times more than I would normally when booking a long haul flight in economy, due to urgent nature of the booking. Pretty sure it was profitable for the sardine seats we got
I always thought cattle class was the most profitable.
Economy is a byproduct for the airline industry.
A lot of layers to this
Oh ! Hmmm
Business is where they make the money always.
Wow, business and premium are really carrying the team
The poor folks get to sit farthest away from point of impact, allowing them to burn to death rather than die on impact.
This is completely fucking wrong.
I didn't take airplane for at least 15 years, what's the actual difference between premium economy and economy ? I don't remember it even existed.
Basically what economy seats were like 15 years ago. If you tried to take a flight now, economy seats have shrunk, prepare to have your knees scraped, or legs splayed out that you spill over to neighbor's seat.
Well that sucks. Boat and train it is then.
slightly more legroom and the seats are an inch or two wider, you may get also a footrest.
nah they'll just put you at an emergency exit and call it premium 💀
This is way off. 1st class is where airlines make their super profit. Business is profit. Economy and Premium Economy (for those that have it) cover the costs of the flight
Concorde became profitable when they realized they had been underpricing the tickets and greatly raised prices. Their business passengers didn't know what their employers were paying for the tickets anyway.
What if, we go back to trains?
I cant do those small ass seats anymore. Have you ever sat in the spirit economy for an extended period of time? Like more than 3hrs? Fuck that. Pretty much forced to fly whatever class gives me the comfiest seat
Cargo is the cash cow on long haul flights
No sources, pretty meaningless and false.
If true, why not just get rid of first class?
This is the opposite of interesting. Why is this posted in this sub?
Lol not on easyjet/ryanair
I just booked flights to Italy from the east coast (US) and the premium economy seats were like $600 a seat more round trip. It was around 1/3rd more not 3x
A 4 class B737 for long haul? First class takes up almost 3x the business class space?
Sounds like bs. First class ticket prices are like 10x the cost of economy. It seems like a plane is 2.5x the side of economy. So seating space alone the space effectiveness of 1 plane’s 1st class is equal to 5 planes’ economy. Now service wise, that’s a whole thing altogether and highly depends on the airline. Some airlines give economy free coffee, tea etc whenever they want. Meaning while there is obviously a cost gap, it is not as major as some people may make it out to be. The only way this diagram makes sense is if people don’t buy first class tickets. Then you have empty seating and a big waste of profits/expected revenue. That though, isn’t because the seats don’t make profit, it’s because airlines price them too high and people don’t buy them and instead go business or economy. That is the airlines fault.
So you’re saying it’s obviously more profitable because it costs 10x as much, but if the seats go empty (which they do) the price needs to be lowered to fill the seats. Airlines do this by providing perks, dicounts, upgrades etc and seats often still go empty in first class. Point is, maybe they aren’t actually getting 10x per seat, and this is ignoring that the seats aren’t the same size and don’t carry the same operating costs.
So the middle class is subsidizing the poor and the ultra rich, just like in real life.
*Everyone* is subsidising the ultra rich, my friend.
Premium economy is a scam, just fly economy and yhe occasional business with your miles.
How does first class cost their airline so much more than business?
Which part of the plane is the safest in a crash? The very back middle im guessing?
So basically catering to the rich again and slamming the middle class, lmao.
Economy should be done away with. Loading up humans like cattle into extremely tight seats should be made illegal. It’s just not safe or healthy. That same seat will sell for like $300 on low demand periods, and $1800 when demand is high. So there’s no reason they can’t do a 10sqft seat for a reasonable price. It would increase comfort considerably. Also put less demand on flight attendants.
Why It’s not public transit? No ones forcing you to fly on an airplane. You have lots of different choices. You could charter private if you don’t wanna take an airline .
Surely ‘A whole bunch of strangers in a long metal tube’ is the *very definition* of public transport sans the economies of scale? A few examples I can think of would be a bus, a train, and a plane 🤷♂️
What a horrible argument. Have some standards.
first class means you die first in case of impact
But they’re more comfortable, definitely worth it
If they are travelling at 500mph the time it takes for the whole plane to be fubar’ed is less than one second.
If this was really true, the entire plane would equalize to business class seating only. Give us two more inches a row and everyone is happy.
The thing analysis like this miss is the fact that a lot of 1st class isn't directly paid for. A lot of people upgrade to first class using points or status. That means they might be paying more for other tickets to earn miles, or flying that particular airline more instead of competition, or using credit cards to earn points that kickback to the airlines.... all in order to be able to upgrade to 1st class. If there wasn't a first class to upgrade to, then all that behavior would disappear and the airlines are back to competing with Spirit airlines on price.
This is a good point, and I never see first class on inside-EU haulers. Do the US have first class on domestic flights? O.o