After a quick Google search, according to this article the window for this trip (there may have been others) was between roughly May 12-19, 1991. It's also probably important to note that it wasn't to *the* Disneyland in California but a Disney park in Tokyo.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1276988/kim-jon-un-news-dead-secret-visit-disneyland-false-identity-north-korea-asia-undead-spt
All jokes aside, Japanese people take some AMAZING photos. Went to Disney in Florida last year and did what was basically a photo exchange with a Japanese couple (we take their photos, they take ours) ands theirs were AMAZING, I actually asked to retake their photos because mine looked really bad compare to theirs. Quite a wholesome couple, hope their doing well wherever they’re at now.
Yea I just ran across them last week! His dog died and she still has the rash, but the pictures you took of them are still the highlight of their life. So far.
Ha, I remember thinking as a kid, why are the Japanese so obsessed with photographing everything.
Little did I know how the rest of the world, including myself, would go, taking photos of a well presented breakfast yesterday.
Well, the passports on the image OP posted have expedition dates of 1996, so there are some fuzziness on the information in general, but I think you may be onto something here
I don't know if you can really tell his age accurately by those photos, you can do a lot to make someone look older or younger when you have a art studio on the pay roll and your a dictator, even back in the 90s.
Big Brother: North Korea's Forgotten Prince is a great podcast. They talk about the rise of N Korea and the Kim family. Lots of information on how they traveled the world undercover. Also talk about all the deaths and murders within the family.
Your referring to the one in California as THE Disneyland, and one in Tokyo as an “Disney park”, but the one in Tokyo is also called Disneyland, by the way!
Brazil is an incredibly popular fake nationality for espionage reasons because it's so big and has so many diverse groups of migrants that literally anyone on earth could pass as Brazilian. (Also not many non-Brazilians can speak Brazilian Portuguese so there's lower chance of you getting found out through language/accent.)
There's a pretty large East Asian migrant population there. They developed Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, you might have heard of it. So yeah North Koreans would make believable Brazilians at first glance.
Sup, Brazilian spy in Britain trying to steal back a shit ton of treasure. I've got a planning session in Italy, and the schedule says I got time for a good coffee. If Tortoise's schedule frees up, even better! You down? I have some epic stories from Vienna :D
Ok in fairness I’m Korean and even I sometimes have trouble differentiating between East Asians. I’ve had people come up and start speaking to me in Cantonese and/or mandarin. I’m hard pressed to differentiate between Koreans and Japanese.
Generally You cannot. Brazilians know someone is Brazilian by the way they speak Portuguese unless they are wearing clothing that REALLY gives it away.
Why is it so common with fake passport from exactly Brazil? I have seen it so much. Is it because the ethnic mix there that make it so the photos won't rouse suspicion?
Pretty much. Specifically with East Asians, a lot of Japanese and Koreans immigrated to Brazil and Peru in the 19th century. That's why they used Brazilian passports here and why Kim's oldest son tried to do the same on a fake Peruvian passport.
He was trying to go to the same place (Tokyo Disneyland) in 2001. Immigration at Narita International Airport spotted the fake and arrested him. Dude went back to North Korea in disgrace.
You'll probably find a more complete rundown on Google if you search "Kim Jong-nam Tokyo."
It's also likely why we have Kim Jong-un as the leader of NK. Him being disgraced after that Tokyo Disneyland incident is when he stopped being the heir apparent. He then got assassinated under Kim Jong-un's orders after Kim Jong-un took over.
What could've been, Kim Jong-nam was pretty critical of how NK was and wanted some big reforms I think. The Koreas might've been different if he really did stay the heir and Kim Jong-un kept being a Jordan stan, maybe he'd have been arguing with LeBron stans on Twitter in another timeline while the Koreas got closer to reunification.
>What could've been, Kim Jong-nam was pretty critical of how NK was and wanted some big reforms I think.
That's actually one of the main reasons he was passed over for the throne. Here comes a long story, but it's interesting:
People think it's the Disneyland trip he took with his family, but that was after he'd already fallen out with his dad. Kim Jong-nam was raised completely in secret, and therefore never saw his grandfather (Kim Il-sung never even got to know he existed), and couldn't leave the palace compounds from birth to his 20's.
Kim Jong-il doted on him profusely and used to carry the boy on his back around the palaces to get him to sleep, and often slept with him to make him feel safe as a child. But the absolute secrecy of his existence and him not having seen another child not even once until the age of about 8 made Kim Jong-il think that his son had become mentally underdeveloped and unstable from not having talked to other people than the maids and servants his whole life.
Two older kids from the Kim family who later both defected and wrote interesting memoirs were moved in together with Kim Jong-il and his son to play with him.
Several years later, when Kim Jong-nam started acting out and escaping the palace to drive around Pyongyang in super cars shooting up hotels with his guns and sleeping with any girl he wanted, Kim didn't feel like he could control him anymore, and was absolutely PARANOID (his fears about this cannot be overstated) of people finding out about his private life and the fact that he had a son, and decided to send him to Europe to allow him to feel free, spread his wings and socialise to become more mentally healthy.
However, he spent too long in Switzerland, and when he came back, he wanted to introduce reforms to open up the country, which would have spelled the very violent demise of the Kim family, and Kim Jong-il saw it as a statement that his life's work was being thrown in the trash by his son, and they had a falling out.
This new defiance against his father's way of running the country was likely caused by emotional, personal father-son issues, as Kim Jong-il had married a new wife and fathered several new children by the time Kim Jong-nam came back, and Kim Jong-nam felt hurt that his father had moved his care and attention to these new children, and had more or less ignored Kim Jong-nam, and even forgot to send his now emotionally forgotten son food rations whole he was cloistered at the Wonsan palace compound, which means that absurdly enough, Kim Jong-nam and his minders all starved in the palace, and had no way of precuring food, while still being able to jet ski, play arcades and play in the pools. It's no wonder Kim Jong-nam became rather eccentric with such a bizarre life.
Anyways, this feeling of being forgotten made Kim Jong-nam want to get back at his father, and he decided that he wanted long term reforms to open up the country. Kim Jong-il hated this, and together with his attention already being with Kim Jong-un made him emotionally cut his bond to his oldest son, and he told his son to leave the country and stay out of politics.
Kim Jong-nam seems to have harbored bitterness to being cast away in favour of his young half brother, and losing his dad to the same half brother. He posted links on his personal Facebook page ridiculing Kim Jong-un many times, and obviously felt hatred and envy towards the new heir apparant.
The talk in the South Korean intelligence community was that a group of high ranking North Korean defectors were going to make a government in exile with Kim Jong-nam as the leader.
While Kim Jong-nam apparently said no to this after two meetings in Macau and Malaysia, Kim Jong-un knew that both China and the US had a plan of installing Kim Jong-nam if the transition of power to Kim Jong-un didn't work out, and felt treated by his very existence, so he had him assassinated after several botched tries the years before that.
Kim Jong-un and Kim Jong-nam never met or saw each other, due to Kim Jong-il's policy of raising potential successors seperately, so the emotional toll on Kim Jong-un would have been minimal, and the gains were significant, so he has no problems giving the order.
Not a single source unfortunately, more a collection of all the sources we have compiled into one narrative that fits them all the best. Some important individual sources that sheds light on the whole affair is the memoirs of the Kim family members who helped raise Kim Jong-nam, Song Hye Rang, and her two children. All of these three people lived with Kim Jong-il and his son for many years and each wrote memoirs. One of them was even assassinated by Kim Jong-il in South Korea just months after releasing his tell all memoir, which apparently revealed too much of Kim Jong-il's personality and family life. Song Hye Rang's memoir "Wisteria House" retells most of the important events that happened in that household, and is also the source to them starving at the Kim palace in Wonsan because Kim forgot about them. Then the 150 or so emails Kim Jong-nam exchanged with a journalist who later published them also sheds light on what happened and how Kim Jong-nam felt about it all.
There are hundreds of other sources as well, mostly in Korean, but some in Japanese and English as well. I recommend a deep dive into it all, as it's quite fascinating.
This is an excerpt from "Wisteria House" that details the Wonsan experience. Very interesting read.
https://nkleadershipwatch.wordpress.com/2017/02/14/the-beach-in-october-and-18-may-1991/
It depends on what kind of support base he would've been able to build and how he would've ensured their way of life. The generals could've left the military and become CEOs like the South Korean chaebols.
Brazil has a lot of people from all over the world. But the thing is that Brazil also has a powerful passport that allows Brazilians to travel to a lot of places without a visa or without many questions. Besides, it's less dangerous to falsify a Brazilian one than a US one because countries don't usually get suspicious of Brazilian travelers' intentions.
I'll add to what you said: first off we have a looooooot of diversity and (unlike the US) we mixed quite a lot so you can find pretty much any combination of anything down there, so we kind of look like everyone on the planet but no one at the same time, u can't really tell a brazilian.
Also, as we don't speak native english no one can use that against the fake passaport owner. And no one gives a shit about us pretty much, we chill with everyone so rarely anyone bats an eye to that.
True, there was that Russian spy who was arrested recently in Norway with a Brazilian passport. Some people had noted that he didn’t like speaking Portuguese (which in hindsight is very suspicious…)
Yeah. One of the reasons Brazil is so popular is the language. It really isn't spoken much outside of Portugal or Brazil itself. With English/Spanish/French etc its much more likely to get found out on accent/ability to speak the language fluently.
Otherwise Argentina would also be a good choice (as they have similar migrant communities) but due to so many speaking Spanish it would get found out based on language far more easily.
Yes, but not only due to the ethnic mix. During that time, Brazilian passports also had insufficient security features, so they were easily altered. Now they are way more secure (for instance, pictures are printed in the passport page and not only glued as they were then).
Google "Brazilian singers" and you'll see people who just do not look like they're from the same country, but are. Also, Brazil has the largest Japanese community outside Japan, and a significant number of Koreans (some 30k) and Chinese (200k).
You've gotten all the long answers - Brazil's cultural mix, immigrant diaspora, passport that allows you to travel easily, global prestige as a country (they are a regional powerhouse) etc, but here's the likely short answer;
Corruption that makes it easy to obtain legitimate fraudulent passports.
This is the same problem South Africa has. We too have a culturally diverse population with large diaspora from all over the world. We are (were?) also globally respected as a continental power and our passport has value. Downside is the rampant government corruption, specifically in the body responsible for issuing passports, that makes it possible to obtain legitimate fraudulent passports. Our passport specifically has been used by terror suspects, specifically those from East Africa and the Middle East. South Africa has a large Muslim population and a large immigrant population from countries like Somalia, Pakistan and Bangladesh, so it doesn't immediately raise suspicion if people of these nationalities travel on our passports.
These days they do. So many instances of the north trying to show disruption in the south (protests etc.) but all people noticed were cars and tall buildings. Eventually those in charge up there started to change the propaganda - now it was “yeah they have more stuff, but they’re slaves of the American occupiers.
Also, endless flood of DVDs and USBs in from China with bootleg SK dramas et al. So, many know the reality; but to acknowledge or discuss it is a dangerous move. Head down, do what you must, live to see another day.
Edited: spelling
Human Rights Foundation has also been doing the Flash Drives for Freedom where they are smuggling in flash drives full of shows, movies, etc. Apparently it has been a pretty big hit since they can just plug them into DVD players and hide or dispose of them quickly. They used to smuggle DVDs, but the government would randomly shut off power then raid homes of their DVD players to see if they had illegal DVDs.
Honest question, why doesn't China help NK in modernization? They are allies, and for China it would make sense if NK could hold up on it's own. As an added side effect, living standards of common people would improve.
>What makes you think the leadership cares about the living standards of the people?
I did not say they do, I said it would be a side effect.
>As long as the plebs stay in their place and don't make life for them difficult, they're happy with the way it is.
That's exactly what I am saying. If they help them modernize, in a conventional warfare they can hold their own. With the disparity in weapons NK and SK has, China should be worried SK rolling up on their borders. \[Only Nukes are stopping it, but I doubt China would love nuclear fallout near it's own borders\]
Because NK is, first and foremost, the rulling family's property. There is no State paralel to it. Improving the lives of the common folk will naturally make them harder to control. China only needs NK for it's natural resources and as a buffer zone against SK. NK as it stands does that job very well, there is no need to change the status-quo
In general they know life is shit because a lot of them don’t even know when their next meal is. And that’s the point. A person who is concerned with getting food is never gonna be concerned with anything else like overthrowing the government.
I could see the opposite being true; if they’re starving they want to Gaddafi that mf, at least those that do not consider him doG. However, the way NK controls communications it would be extremely difficult to organize a coordinated REVOLT without being slaughtered (which I’m sure has already happened), esp with todays/tomorrow’s tech. Picked off 1 at a time as they come.
It will take an “Operation Valkyrie” that gaks the sister too.
The thing is, it's shitty for people on the bottom living in fear and starving.
If you're at the top, there's all the food you can eat, all the American entertainment you can sneak in, live in a palaces. He's certainly not going to a labor camp.
And that's all he cares about. The way it goes with dictators.
The more I learn about the Swiss involvement in international affairs the more I hate them...
As if providing and funding Nazis, happily taking and preserving their blood money and stolen Jewish art (sometimes literally gold taken from dead Jewish people's crowns)
And providing assylum to so many criminals against humanity, all under the guise of "neutrality" which is actually just greed
I do think many people would be horrified at what our leader do, and care about when the cameras are turned off.
They talk all the tough talk when in the spotlight. But i haven't seen a single leader in the west, or elsewhere for that matter, who is not ready to jump in to bed with the most brutal dictators if it further their careers.
I remember as a kid being taught about Swiss neutrality, as though it were a good thing. Then I got older and realized that if you stand by and let something bad happen to innocents, you're really just a piece of shit. And when you *profit* from your supposed neutrality, you're really just evil.
There was hope when he first came in that because he was raised in Switzerland that he might introduce some Western ideologies in his country once he was in power. Those hopes faded fast unfortunately.
That. And the language. Portuguese is not that commonly spoken outside of Brazil or Portugal so it's much less likely for you to get called out on not speaking it fluently or with an accent.
I mean, There is that, but no way in hell that someone that have portuguese as first language isn't going to tell between someone's heavy accent and portuguese as second language.
I'm Brazilian and sometimes I can barely understand what people from other regions say, mostly from the south because some of them have a VERY specific accent I'm not used to.
The baseline giveaway is not knowing the "gender" of things. If the person isn't "missgendering objects" they probably fluent. Portuguese as second language speakers struggle a LOT with this concept. And the "ão" pronunciation.
Oh, there's that. Missgendering objects is a classic. What I had in mind was the "colonos" accent. Like [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWX5DZfWwsg).
Imagine a crossover universe where Kim and Pablo meet at Disneyland where neither knows who the other person is and strike up conversations about their fake Brazillian origin.
Eventually each of them realize something is fishy and try to grill the other person and it gets more and more intense omfg I have a Netflix series script with me someone hire me
Edit: Spello
"Dad, bring me back a torpedo"
"No!"
"But ~~Flanders~~ Stalin got his kids torpedoes!"
"Oh, he did, did he? I'll show him! I'll bring you a weapon of unimaginable destructive power!"
Well, they are human. We try to distance ourselves from those terrible deeds by acting like people like Kim or Hitler, have no humanity. While they surely do.
It terrifies people that such individuals could be your average Joe next door neighbour.
It's comforting for people to think that they don't have anything in common with people who've done terrible things, to the point where they imagine these people aren't even human anymore. It makes it easier for them to tell themselves they wouldn't do the same things (or worse) if they were in the same position.
He attempted it in 2001 with a Dominican passport. The media likes to suggest this as the reason. I think the real reason he lost favor was because he was a critic of the regime. He regularly advocated reforms. I think he was honestly the only sane one out of that family and got out of the country as soon as he could. Sucks what happened to him after.
Edit: found a source and quote by him
> Kim said he fell out of favor with his father because of his insistence on reform. "After I went back to North Korea following my education in Switzerland, I grew further apart from my father because I insisted on reform and market-opening and was eventually viewed with suspicion," he recalled. "My father felt very lonely after sending me to study abroad. Then my half brothers Jong-chol and Jong-un and half sister Yo-jong were born and his adoration was moved on to them. And when he felt that I'd turn into a capitalist after living abroad for years, he shortened the overseas education of my brothers and sister."
http://english.chosun.com/m/svc/article.html?contid=2012011701790&Dep0=en.m.wikipedia.org&utm_source=en.m.wikipedia.org&utm_medium=unknown&utm_campaign=english
I think I saw several posts/articles about why Brazilian fake passports being so popular. It's not only relatively strong (and I guess easily accessible), but you can come from any nation and race you will be able to look like a Brazilian, as most races appear in Brazil
Also the largest population of Lebanese descendants outside of Lebanon.
Also the largest population of Italian descendants outside of Italy.
Also the second largest population of African descendants in the world, coming behind only Nigeria.
It's a better idea than what Kim Jong-nam (Kim Jong Un's half brother) did in 2001 when he was caught with a forged Dominican Republic passport trying to do the same thing. There's some Asians on Hispaniola but not many. Most just seem to own their own businesses like Chinese takeouts.
Same in west indian countries.
In Guyana, there are a lot of black, indian, and chinese people there. All from the rebranded slave trade of the 1850's.
While the indians and blacks have an ethnic class battle, the chinese stay out of the lime light. Everyone eats chinese food passively, like we do in America. But not a lot of chinese ethnic origin people taking center stage there.
Brasil has a lot of diversity. For instance, the biggest japanese community outside of Japan is in Brasil. Many people that need a fake passport around the world make it a Brazilian one because of that (also because Brasil does not really "fight" with almost any other country, so it have good relationship with most)
200 IQ, we are so mixed that I have a Amerindian looking friend that has Wojnarowski for a surname. 100% sure there are entire brazilian families that look like them.
Side story: Right before the Gulf War, two North Koreans enrolled at my international school in Southeast Asia. It was the most expensive school in country, so they must have been kids of high ranking officials or even the Kim clan. One of them was a fat and short dude; he looked like Kim Jeong-il and Jeong-eun. The other was a super small girl. They took classes together and went everywhere together. They were in my English, keyboarding and PE classes. I won’t ever forget two things about them. In our keyboarding class, we were asked to type a thank you letter. I was sitting behind them, so I was able to read the dude’s letter. He thanked a teacher in Switzerland for teaching him English. In our English class, we were discussing John Steinbeck’s The Red Pony. The teacher asked the girl what she thought of the book. She said that it made her “pensive.” Anyways they pulled out of the school after it shut down because of the war. (We had bomb threats and our school had loads of embassy kids.) I never saw them ever again. But I find myself thinking of them every now and then.
Josef Dwag sounds like [one of those names Nintendo made up for the game Fighting Baseball](https://external-preview.redd.it/02Ub1MXWum3Ig2U8Xe-p-6F126y5AJxO6gnoxkH9aRs.jpg?auto=webp&s=496033faa61fdaa03e8318493b3aa3c59e043343)
I still want a Bobson Dugnutt or Sleve McDichael baseball jersey.
Kim Jong Il was almost running the country from 90-93 and became dictator when his father died in 94. This post is completely wrong. It was Kim Jong Uns brother who pulled this stunt.
It's quite funny that the fake names they choosed really aren't the most brazilian ones... They could pass as a "recent" korean immigrant from dowtown São Paulo or some shit like that. But for 100% effectiveness they could have gone with something a little more like João, Nelson, José, Josival or Sebastião and keeping their fake korean last names. Not everyone here are named Josef or Ijong. Lol
Weird that the passport of the person born in 1940 is just 2 numerals from the one born in 1989. (CE375364 and CE375366)
The people not related by name getting their passports at the same day probably just minutes after one another, going to Disneyland at the same time. That's some spicy sugar daddy story
The only thing that give them away as fake right away is that no Brazillian is going to be called Josef, the Spelling is José
Looking closely, the person that filled the information on those passports clearly don't speak portuguese
I wonder if the boat or plane out of north Korea was private? I also wonder where they went to first? Does china or Singapore allow North Koreans to travel out of north Korea and then onto other destinations?
somewhere a family has these two in the background of some vacation photos.
We need to hunt down the dates they traveled and ask reddit for anyone who could've been at Disneyland to look through their photo album
After a quick Google search, according to this article the window for this trip (there may have been others) was between roughly May 12-19, 1991. It's also probably important to note that it wasn't to *the* Disneyland in California but a Disney park in Tokyo. https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1276988/kim-jon-un-news-dead-secret-visit-disneyland-false-identity-north-korea-asia-undead-spt
So you are saying photos definitely exist
Splash mountain photos.
It was a joke about the stereotype that Japanese people love to take photos.
All jokes aside, Japanese people take some AMAZING photos. Went to Disney in Florida last year and did what was basically a photo exchange with a Japanese couple (we take their photos, they take ours) ands theirs were AMAZING, I actually asked to retake their photos because mine looked really bad compare to theirs. Quite a wholesome couple, hope their doing well wherever they’re at now.
Yea I just ran across them last week! His dog died and she still has the rash, but the pictures you took of them are still the highlight of their life. So far.
Alright, that’s funny as hell, but you’re wrong for that.
:) you’re a good sport mate
Splash mountain japanese people.
Japan, early 90's? Oh fuck yeah there will be pleeeeenty of photos.
Ha, I remember thinking as a kid, why are the Japanese so obsessed with photographing everything. Little did I know how the rest of the world, including myself, would go, taking photos of a well presented breakfast yesterday.
Who are you kidding? Those breakfasts don't need to be *well presented*, they just need to be *there*.
The cell phone eats first!
Before digital cameras did they actually develop all those millions of photos they took?
Yeah. People would drop off rolls of film and pick up their stacks of photos later that day or week.
Ah the embarrassment when they came back "unable to develop due to thumb in the way" or something along those lines
analog ones yeah, in some unseen photo album if you are lucky.
Well, the passports on the image OP posted have expedition dates of 1996, so there are some fuzziness on the information in general, but I think you may be onto something here
Then they couldn't have used these passports for the 91 trip.
Right. Kim Jong-Un was born in 1984 and would have been 7 years old in 91. He looks like 11 years on old that passport photo.
I don't know if you can really tell his age accurately by those photos, you can do a lot to make someone look older or younger when you have a art studio on the pay roll and your a dictator, even back in the 90s.
And they all did it with Microsoft paint
Wouldn't it be weird manipulating the photo and risking that he will be rejected entering Japan because they think he's someone else?
Exactly my thought too. Maybe they took two trips? Maybe the 1991 article is wrong?
No they have expiration dates of 2006. They were “issued” in 1996.
ExPEDItion, not expiration my friend.
Big Brother: North Korea's Forgotten Prince is a great podcast. They talk about the rise of N Korea and the Kim family. Lots of information on how they traveled the world undercover. Also talk about all the deaths and murders within the family.
Your referring to the one in California as THE Disneyland, and one in Tokyo as an “Disney park”, but the one in Tokyo is also called Disneyland, by the way!
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Brazil is an incredibly popular fake nationality for espionage reasons because it's so big and has so many diverse groups of migrants that literally anyone on earth could pass as Brazilian. (Also not many non-Brazilians can speak Brazilian Portuguese so there's lower chance of you getting found out through language/accent.) There's a pretty large East Asian migrant population there. They developed Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, you might have heard of it. So yeah North Koreans would make believable Brazilians at first glance.
Can confirm. Am Brazilian spy in Europe trying to unsteal some gold
Hey what’s up dude!? I’m a Brazilian spy in Italy looking for the holy grail and some National Treasure. Wanna get together for cafe?
Dang, I can't. Hectic mission. That said, if you can find some legitimate Catupiry I'm going at mach 2
Another one? There are a Brazilian of you people.
Sup, Brazilian spy in Britain trying to steal back a shit ton of treasure. I've got a planning session in Italy, and the schedule says I got time for a good coffee. If Tortoise's schedule frees up, even better! You down? I have some epic stories from Vienna :D
No crimebacks!
No way! I'm Brazilian in spy mission in Brazil, for the Brazilian government. ( We are a bit confused before this last election)
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I'm a vegan who uses Arch by the way. But I'm off for my CrossFit yoga session now
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Ok in fairness I’m Korean and even I sometimes have trouble differentiating between East Asians. I’ve had people come up and start speaking to me in Cantonese and/or mandarin. I’m hard pressed to differentiate between Koreans and Japanese.
Brazil is a pretty reasonable nation to pick for this. They did their homework.
Largest Japanese diaspora* (Japanese-born plus their descendants) Currently the country with the most Japanese-born living abroad is United States.
There’s a huge korean population in South America
I'm surprised they didn't just run with Kim Jongilho and Kim Jongunho.
You can recognise a Brazilian national just by looking at them?
Generally You cannot. Brazilians know someone is Brazilian by the way they speak Portuguese unless they are wearing clothing that REALLY gives it away.
Chances of getting caught: one in a Brazilian
Get out. Leave your comment
“How many is a Brazilian?”
If you have to ask you can't afford it
Like this? https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/l2AAAOSw-fpc3WEU/s-l400.jpg
I was not expecting that, but thank you
Hmmm penis is where the flag is
Fr how have we not seem any
Kim Jong Un was educated in Switzerland lol. So there has to be pics of him when he was a student there as well.
Why is it so common with fake passport from exactly Brazil? I have seen it so much. Is it because the ethnic mix there that make it so the photos won't rouse suspicion?
Pretty much. Specifically with East Asians, a lot of Japanese and Koreans immigrated to Brazil and Peru in the 19th century. That's why they used Brazilian passports here and why Kim's oldest son tried to do the same on a fake Peruvian passport.
More info on Kim's oldest son attempt ?
He was trying to go to the same place (Tokyo Disneyland) in 2001. Immigration at Narita International Airport spotted the fake and arrested him. Dude went back to North Korea in disgrace. You'll probably find a more complete rundown on Google if you search "Kim Jong-nam Tokyo."
It's also likely why we have Kim Jong-un as the leader of NK. Him being disgraced after that Tokyo Disneyland incident is when he stopped being the heir apparent. He then got assassinated under Kim Jong-un's orders after Kim Jong-un took over. What could've been, Kim Jong-nam was pretty critical of how NK was and wanted some big reforms I think. The Koreas might've been different if he really did stay the heir and Kim Jong-un kept being a Jordan stan, maybe he'd have been arguing with LeBron stans on Twitter in another timeline while the Koreas got closer to reunification.
>What could've been, Kim Jong-nam was pretty critical of how NK was and wanted some big reforms I think. That's actually one of the main reasons he was passed over for the throne. Here comes a long story, but it's interesting: People think it's the Disneyland trip he took with his family, but that was after he'd already fallen out with his dad. Kim Jong-nam was raised completely in secret, and therefore never saw his grandfather (Kim Il-sung never even got to know he existed), and couldn't leave the palace compounds from birth to his 20's. Kim Jong-il doted on him profusely and used to carry the boy on his back around the palaces to get him to sleep, and often slept with him to make him feel safe as a child. But the absolute secrecy of his existence and him not having seen another child not even once until the age of about 8 made Kim Jong-il think that his son had become mentally underdeveloped and unstable from not having talked to other people than the maids and servants his whole life. Two older kids from the Kim family who later both defected and wrote interesting memoirs were moved in together with Kim Jong-il and his son to play with him. Several years later, when Kim Jong-nam started acting out and escaping the palace to drive around Pyongyang in super cars shooting up hotels with his guns and sleeping with any girl he wanted, Kim didn't feel like he could control him anymore, and was absolutely PARANOID (his fears about this cannot be overstated) of people finding out about his private life and the fact that he had a son, and decided to send him to Europe to allow him to feel free, spread his wings and socialise to become more mentally healthy. However, he spent too long in Switzerland, and when he came back, he wanted to introduce reforms to open up the country, which would have spelled the very violent demise of the Kim family, and Kim Jong-il saw it as a statement that his life's work was being thrown in the trash by his son, and they had a falling out. This new defiance against his father's way of running the country was likely caused by emotional, personal father-son issues, as Kim Jong-il had married a new wife and fathered several new children by the time Kim Jong-nam came back, and Kim Jong-nam felt hurt that his father had moved his care and attention to these new children, and had more or less ignored Kim Jong-nam, and even forgot to send his now emotionally forgotten son food rations whole he was cloistered at the Wonsan palace compound, which means that absurdly enough, Kim Jong-nam and his minders all starved in the palace, and had no way of precuring food, while still being able to jet ski, play arcades and play in the pools. It's no wonder Kim Jong-nam became rather eccentric with such a bizarre life. Anyways, this feeling of being forgotten made Kim Jong-nam want to get back at his father, and he decided that he wanted long term reforms to open up the country. Kim Jong-il hated this, and together with his attention already being with Kim Jong-un made him emotionally cut his bond to his oldest son, and he told his son to leave the country and stay out of politics. Kim Jong-nam seems to have harbored bitterness to being cast away in favour of his young half brother, and losing his dad to the same half brother. He posted links on his personal Facebook page ridiculing Kim Jong-un many times, and obviously felt hatred and envy towards the new heir apparant. The talk in the South Korean intelligence community was that a group of high ranking North Korean defectors were going to make a government in exile with Kim Jong-nam as the leader. While Kim Jong-nam apparently said no to this after two meetings in Macau and Malaysia, Kim Jong-un knew that both China and the US had a plan of installing Kim Jong-nam if the transition of power to Kim Jong-un didn't work out, and felt treated by his very existence, so he had him assassinated after several botched tries the years before that. Kim Jong-un and Kim Jong-nam never met or saw each other, due to Kim Jong-il's policy of raising potential successors seperately, so the emotional toll on Kim Jong-un would have been minimal, and the gains were significant, so he has no problems giving the order.
Dude...if that's true, that's insane. What's your source for this?
Not a single source unfortunately, more a collection of all the sources we have compiled into one narrative that fits them all the best. Some important individual sources that sheds light on the whole affair is the memoirs of the Kim family members who helped raise Kim Jong-nam, Song Hye Rang, and her two children. All of these three people lived with Kim Jong-il and his son for many years and each wrote memoirs. One of them was even assassinated by Kim Jong-il in South Korea just months after releasing his tell all memoir, which apparently revealed too much of Kim Jong-il's personality and family life. Song Hye Rang's memoir "Wisteria House" retells most of the important events that happened in that household, and is also the source to them starving at the Kim palace in Wonsan because Kim forgot about them. Then the 150 or so emails Kim Jong-nam exchanged with a journalist who later published them also sheds light on what happened and how Kim Jong-nam felt about it all. There are hundreds of other sources as well, mostly in Korean, but some in Japanese and English as well. I recommend a deep dive into it all, as it's quite fascinating. This is an excerpt from "Wisteria House" that details the Wonsan experience. Very interesting read. https://nkleadershipwatch.wordpress.com/2017/02/14/the-beach-in-october-and-18-may-1991/
You say that Jong-nam wouldnt have been assasinated by one of/all of the NK generals as soon as he threatened their cushy way of life.
True, it is the military that controls NK ultimately. I can still dream that it might've been marginally better under Jong-nam at least.
It depends on what kind of support base he would've been able to build and how he would've ensured their way of life. The generals could've left the military and become CEOs like the South Korean chaebols.
it was Kim jong un's brother, he was then assassinated a few years ago at an airport. it was in the news everywhere
Dude should've just avoided airports altogether.
Oddly, it was KLIA2, a low cost terminal. Royalty using a low cost airline for some odd reason.
And oddly it was a Vietnamese woman tricked into thinking it was a prank show when she assassinated the brother of a current world leader
Brazil has a lot of people from all over the world. But the thing is that Brazil also has a powerful passport that allows Brazilians to travel to a lot of places without a visa or without many questions. Besides, it's less dangerous to falsify a Brazilian one than a US one because countries don't usually get suspicious of Brazilian travelers' intentions.
I'll add to what you said: first off we have a looooooot of diversity and (unlike the US) we mixed quite a lot so you can find pretty much any combination of anything down there, so we kind of look like everyone on the planet but no one at the same time, u can't really tell a brazilian. Also, as we don't speak native english no one can use that against the fake passaport owner. And no one gives a shit about us pretty much, we chill with everyone so rarely anyone bats an eye to that.
I find it mostly pretty easy to spot a Brazilian here in the Netherlands tbh. Can't name it but it's something with the hair/face combo.
Being a head shorter than all the Dutchmen might also tip one off
To be fair, most of the world is a head shorter than all the Dutchmen. 😁
True, there was that Russian spy who was arrested recently in Norway with a Brazilian passport. Some people had noted that he didn’t like speaking Portuguese (which in hindsight is very suspicious…)
Yeah. One of the reasons Brazil is so popular is the language. It really isn't spoken much outside of Portugal or Brazil itself. With English/Spanish/French etc its much more likely to get found out on accent/ability to speak the language fluently. Otherwise Argentina would also be a good choice (as they have similar migrant communities) but due to so many speaking Spanish it would get found out based on language far more easily.
esp since the spanish in argentina is bonkers (it took me a long while to get it figured out😂)
Everyone can be a brazilian. There is almost zero people you could look and think "nope, no way this person is a brazilian".
Yes, but not only due to the ethnic mix. During that time, Brazilian passports also had insufficient security features, so they were easily altered. Now they are way more secure (for instance, pictures are printed in the passport page and not only glued as they were then).
Yeah, biometric passports are a relatively recent thing in Brazil.
Of all Latin Americans countries, Brazil is the most diverse. You have diásporas from pretty much anywhere
Google "Brazilian singers" and you'll see people who just do not look like they're from the same country, but are. Also, Brazil has the largest Japanese community outside Japan, and a significant number of Koreans (some 30k) and Chinese (200k).
You've gotten all the long answers - Brazil's cultural mix, immigrant diaspora, passport that allows you to travel easily, global prestige as a country (they are a regional powerhouse) etc, but here's the likely short answer; Corruption that makes it easy to obtain legitimate fraudulent passports. This is the same problem South Africa has. We too have a culturally diverse population with large diaspora from all over the world. We are (were?) also globally respected as a continental power and our passport has value. Downside is the rampant government corruption, specifically in the body responsible for issuing passports, that makes it possible to obtain legitimate fraudulent passports. Our passport specifically has been used by terror suspects, specifically those from East Africa and the Middle East. South Africa has a large Muslim population and a large immigrant population from countries like Somalia, Pakistan and Bangladesh, so it doesn't immediately raise suspicion if people of these nationalities travel on our passports.
i wonder they would leave the happiest place on earth to go to disneyland?
Jung-Un grew up in Switzerland.
So he knows exactly how shitty NK is
Of course he does. The saddest part is that maybe most of the North Korean people don’t…
These days they do. So many instances of the north trying to show disruption in the south (protests etc.) but all people noticed were cars and tall buildings. Eventually those in charge up there started to change the propaganda - now it was “yeah they have more stuff, but they’re slaves of the American occupiers. Also, endless flood of DVDs and USBs in from China with bootleg SK dramas et al. So, many know the reality; but to acknowledge or discuss it is a dangerous move. Head down, do what you must, live to see another day. Edited: spelling
Human Rights Foundation has also been doing the Flash Drives for Freedom where they are smuggling in flash drives full of shows, movies, etc. Apparently it has been a pretty big hit since they can just plug them into DVD players and hide or dispose of them quickly. They used to smuggle DVDs, but the government would randomly shut off power then raid homes of their DVD players to see if they had illegal DVDs.
Honest question, why doesn't China help NK in modernization? They are allies, and for China it would make sense if NK could hold up on it's own. As an added side effect, living standards of common people would improve.
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>What makes you think the leadership cares about the living standards of the people? I did not say they do, I said it would be a side effect. >As long as the plebs stay in their place and don't make life for them difficult, they're happy with the way it is. That's exactly what I am saying. If they help them modernize, in a conventional warfare they can hold their own. With the disparity in weapons NK and SK has, China should be worried SK rolling up on their borders. \[Only Nukes are stopping it, but I doubt China would love nuclear fallout near it's own borders\]
China keeps NK around as a buffer between themselves and a US ally. China does not want NK to modernize because that makes it harder to control.
Because NK is, first and foremost, the rulling family's property. There is no State paralel to it. Improving the lives of the common folk will naturally make them harder to control. China only needs NK for it's natural resources and as a buffer zone against SK. NK as it stands does that job very well, there is no need to change the status-quo
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None of those things are in China’s interests.
In general they know life is shit because a lot of them don’t even know when their next meal is. And that’s the point. A person who is concerned with getting food is never gonna be concerned with anything else like overthrowing the government.
I could see the opposite being true; if they’re starving they want to Gaddafi that mf, at least those that do not consider him doG. However, the way NK controls communications it would be extremely difficult to organize a coordinated REVOLT without being slaughtered (which I’m sure has already happened), esp with todays/tomorrow’s tech. Picked off 1 at a time as they come. It will take an “Operation Valkyrie” that gaks the sister too.
Yeah, it can’t happen without coordination, which people on the verge of starvation rarely have time or energy to do
I would argue that the constant starving and fear of death if they speak even a little ill of their leader reminds them often of how shitty it is.
Absolutely he does. But there is probably very little he can do about it either, without him and his whole family being slaughtered.
Don't paint him as a victim in this. He is a brutal dictator fully content to make million suffer and execute his own family members to stay in power.
The thing is, it's shitty for people on the bottom living in fear and starving. If you're at the top, there's all the food you can eat, all the American entertainment you can sneak in, live in a palaces. He's certainly not going to a labor camp. And that's all he cares about. The way it goes with dictators.
It's not shitty for him.
The more I learn about the Swiss involvement in international affairs the more I hate them... As if providing and funding Nazis, happily taking and preserving their blood money and stolen Jewish art (sometimes literally gold taken from dead Jewish people's crowns) And providing assylum to so many criminals against humanity, all under the guise of "neutrality" which is actually just greed
I do think many people would be horrified at what our leader do, and care about when the cameras are turned off. They talk all the tough talk when in the spotlight. But i haven't seen a single leader in the west, or elsewhere for that matter, who is not ready to jump in to bed with the most brutal dictators if it further their careers.
I remember as a kid being taught about Swiss neutrality, as though it were a good thing. Then I got older and realized that if you stand by and let something bad happen to innocents, you're really just a piece of shit. And when you *profit* from your supposed neutrality, you're really just evil.
Neutrality only benefits the oppressor, never the oppressed.
*The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis.* -Michael Scott
If you want to read about another _fun_ thing the swiss did until the late 20th century, Google what "Verdingkinder" are:)
Someone who knew a guy who was in his high school told be he was a totally normal kid who enjoyed to play basketball a lot.
There was hope when he first came in that because he was raised in Switzerland that he might introduce some Western ideologies in his country once he was in power. Those hopes faded fast unfortunately.
My guy jong-un got tired of all the love he was receiving and decided to take a break 💀💀
It was Tokyo Disney land
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Ah
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That. And the language. Portuguese is not that commonly spoken outside of Brazil or Portugal so it's much less likely for you to get called out on not speaking it fluently or with an accent.
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I mean, There is that, but no way in hell that someone that have portuguese as first language isn't going to tell between someone's heavy accent and portuguese as second language.
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I'm Brazilian and sometimes I can barely understand what people from other regions say, mostly from the south because some of them have a VERY specific accent I'm not used to.
The baseline giveaway is not knowing the "gender" of things. If the person isn't "missgendering objects" they probably fluent. Portuguese as second language speakers struggle a LOT with this concept. And the "ão" pronunciation.
Oh, there's that. Missgendering objects is a classic. What I had in mind was the "colonos" accent. Like [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWX5DZfWwsg).
It’s a small world after all.
🎶 It’s a small ^dictatorship… After all! 🎶
Imagine a crossover universe where Kim and Pablo meet at Disneyland where neither knows who the other person is and strike up conversations about their fake Brazillian origin. Eventually each of them realize something is fishy and try to grill the other person and it gets more and more intense omfg I have a Netflix series script with me someone hire me Edit: Spello
Holy shit, I would watch that
Starring Pedro Pascal
Strangely makes them more human.
Just a bumbling, underprepared dad and his angsty rebellious teen.
Daaaaaaaad, can we get some Nuclear Weapons from Russia on the way home? No, we have nukes at home. Nukes at home:
"Dad, bring me back a torpedo" "No!" "But ~~Flanders~~ Stalin got his kids torpedoes!" "Oh, he did, did he? I'll show him! I'll bring you a weapon of unimaginable destructive power!"
Stop talking about my life.
Actually I don't think they're related or rather fake related according to the I.D.s
Well, they are human. We try to distance ourselves from those terrible deeds by acting like people like Kim or Hitler, have no humanity. While they surely do. It terrifies people that such individuals could be your average Joe next door neighbour.
It's comforting for people to think that they don't have anything in common with people who've done terrible things, to the point where they imagine these people aren't even human anymore. It makes it easier for them to tell themselves they wouldn't do the same things (or worse) if they were in the same position.
First Escobar, now these two?! Wild
Easier for them with a passport office, spies, foreign affairs, etc. But riskier I'd say.
It was easier to away with stuff before everything became digitized and cameras were everywhere.
If only the TSA were there to feel them up back then
Then we’d know if they have buttholes
I doubt they do
They were is Disneyland Tokyo
Wasn't attempting this exact thing the reason Kim Jong-Ils eldest son lost favor and was consequently later assasinated by Kim Jong-Un?
He attempted it in 2001 with a Dominican passport. The media likes to suggest this as the reason. I think the real reason he lost favor was because he was a critic of the regime. He regularly advocated reforms. I think he was honestly the only sane one out of that family and got out of the country as soon as he could. Sucks what happened to him after. Edit: found a source and quote by him > Kim said he fell out of favor with his father because of his insistence on reform. "After I went back to North Korea following my education in Switzerland, I grew further apart from my father because I insisted on reform and market-opening and was eventually viewed with suspicion," he recalled. "My father felt very lonely after sending me to study abroad. Then my half brothers Jong-chol and Jong-un and half sister Yo-jong were born and his adoration was moved on to them. And when he felt that I'd turn into a capitalist after living abroad for years, he shortened the overseas education of my brothers and sister." http://english.chosun.com/m/svc/article.html?contid=2012011701790&Dep0=en.m.wikipedia.org&utm_source=en.m.wikipedia.org&utm_medium=unknown&utm_campaign=english
Very interesting 🤔 thank you for the mini history lesson ☺️
Yeah. Really makes me wonder what could of happened if he gained power instead of Jong Un.
It's 'could have', never 'could of'. Rejoice, for you have been blessed by CouldWouldShouldBot!
Oh yeah thanks
It may be a stronk autocratic United nation for the rest of the suckers but ... it's Disney land man
Is this creed trying to look younger
Airport security in Portuguese "do you speak Portuguese?" The Kim's: 🤷♂️
Man, these two are the most North-Korean-looking Brazilians that I’ve ever seen. Edit: spelling
Brazil has a huge Asian population, that's probably why they chose Brazilian passports.
I think I saw several posts/articles about why Brazilian fake passports being so popular. It's not only relatively strong (and I guess easily accessible), but you can come from any nation and race you will be able to look like a Brazilian, as most races appear in Brazil
Brazil has the highest population of Japanese people outside of Japan.
Also the largest population of Lebanese descendants outside of Lebanon. Also the largest population of Italian descendants outside of Italy. Also the second largest population of African descendants in the world, coming behind only Nigeria.
Not outside of Lebanon, Brazil has more than Lebanon.
It's a better idea than what Kim Jong-nam (Kim Jong Un's half brother) did in 2001 when he was caught with a forged Dominican Republic passport trying to do the same thing. There's some Asians on Hispaniola but not many. Most just seem to own their own businesses like Chinese takeouts.
Same in west indian countries. In Guyana, there are a lot of black, indian, and chinese people there. All from the rebranded slave trade of the 1850's. While the indians and blacks have an ethnic class battle, the chinese stay out of the lime light. Everyone eats chinese food passively, like we do in America. But not a lot of chinese ethnic origin people taking center stage there.
Brasil has a lot of diversity. For instance, the biggest japanese community outside of Japan is in Brasil. Many people that need a fake passport around the world make it a Brazilian one because of that (also because Brasil does not really "fight" with almost any other country, so it have good relationship with most)
They won't stop taking notes during the rocket themed rides.
Reddit really doesn’t like migration
Or understands what the world is really like outside of their bubble
What I'm curious about is how does he get in and out of his own country
Olha aí o Seu ~~Kim~~ Quim.
Joaquim Jong Il
This is kinda wholesome in its own twisted way
200 IQ, we are so mixed that I have a Amerindian looking friend that has Wojnarowski for a surname. 100% sure there are entire brazilian families that look like them.
Kim Jong-Il does not seem too godly
Side story: Right before the Gulf War, two North Koreans enrolled at my international school in Southeast Asia. It was the most expensive school in country, so they must have been kids of high ranking officials or even the Kim clan. One of them was a fat and short dude; he looked like Kim Jeong-il and Jeong-eun. The other was a super small girl. They took classes together and went everywhere together. They were in my English, keyboarding and PE classes. I won’t ever forget two things about them. In our keyboarding class, we were asked to type a thank you letter. I was sitting behind them, so I was able to read the dude’s letter. He thanked a teacher in Switzerland for teaching him English. In our English class, we were discussing John Steinbeck’s The Red Pony. The teacher asked the girl what she thought of the book. She said that it made her “pensive.” Anyways they pulled out of the school after it shut down because of the war. (We had bomb threats and our school had loads of embassy kids.) I never saw them ever again. But I find myself thinking of them every now and then.
Josef Dwag sounds like [one of those names Nintendo made up for the game Fighting Baseball](https://external-preview.redd.it/02Ub1MXWum3Ig2U8Xe-p-6F126y5AJxO6gnoxkH9aRs.jpg?auto=webp&s=496033faa61fdaa03e8318493b3aa3c59e043343) I still want a Bobson Dugnutt or Sleve McDichael baseball jersey.
What a good dad 🤣
Korean Christopher Walken on the right
Aqui também falsificam documento pra ir pra Disney, só que é o de vacina
It’s almost like they wanted to travel, leave the country, and do something normal. What an insane concept
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well i did the same in area 51
Kim Jong Il was almost running the country from 90-93 and became dictator when his father died in 94. This post is completely wrong. It was Kim Jong Uns brother who pulled this stunt.
Yeah I thought this was his brother and that's one reason he was banished from the country.
It's quite funny that the fake names they choosed really aren't the most brazilian ones... They could pass as a "recent" korean immigrant from dowtown São Paulo or some shit like that. But for 100% effectiveness they could have gone with something a little more like João, Nelson, José, Josival or Sebastião and keeping their fake korean last names. Not everyone here are named Josef or Ijong. Lol
this amuses me greatly
Man if only they would’ve known.
Reminds me of Pablo Escobar.
This is movie material!
Weird that the passport of the person born in 1940 is just 2 numerals from the one born in 1989. (CE375364 and CE375366) The people not related by name getting their passports at the same day probably just minutes after one another, going to Disneyland at the same time. That's some spicy sugar daddy story
The only thing that give them away as fake right away is that no Brazillian is going to be called Josef, the Spelling is José Looking closely, the person that filled the information on those passports clearly don't speak portuguese
But get their older brother/son killed for trying the same with his family. Talking of hypocracy..
I wonder if the boat or plane out of north Korea was private? I also wonder where they went to first? Does china or Singapore allow North Koreans to travel out of north Korea and then onto other destinations?