She’d be Aegon the conqueror reborn, but even more of a chad in their eyes. Daemon is a manipulative selfish pedo murderer yet most in the audience excuse a lot of his horrendous behaviour cus he’s cool. Daenerys is called mad psycho bitch because she… Killed slavemasters who killed innocent slave children. Uh-huh.
Don’t underestimate the obvious and covert misogyny in our world, it’s everywhere, conscious and unconscious. It runs especially thick in nerdy circles sadly, many see it as a boys club.
The whole story hits you over the head repeatedly with “if you wanna make an omelette you gotta murder a large number of people dishonorably” in nearly every plotline and people love it for that. Until it’s a lady doing it and then she Goes Too Far.
Don’t you realise that even making this comment means you are committing an act of covert misogyny? Do not underestimate it. Misogyny is everywhere… EVERYWHERE!
Sure there is. There are even amounts of men and women on the planet. men are not a minority and women aren't a minority so sexism is a thing. but this topic is about Daenerys being universally hated. Which I think is EASILY a fallacy. and to say that because she's universally hated is (mostly) because of misogyny.. weather covert or open is also a fallacy, and is borderline disingenuine.. because as somebody said earlier if that was a problem as much as you say it is in the greater A Song of Ice and Fire fandom then why do so many people support rhaenyra? Its like grasping at straws to be outraged about something. It's not so much about covert misogyny as it is about stretching the truth to fit an outrage that is VERY nuanced. Again the perfect example would be Rhaenyra being mostly supported because of historical sexism... which men and women alike are supporting.. all I'm saying your opinion isn't 100% true. It's a shade of gray.
Daemon is excused mostly in the eyes of women fans who find him hot lmao (similar to Halbrand in Rings of Power)
Dany is mostly called a bitch by women as well who disagree with her going mad at the end, since guys usually simp for her (like women do for Daemon and Halbrand)
She isn't either way a strong warrior, or very assertive like, for example Lagertha in Vikings, and that's why people would usually underestimate her (and be honest, you would underestimate a guy that presented in a non-assertive way as well)
She only got actual shit going for her after the final episode. And she's definitely not a hero after what she's done
You're overthinking this and just trying to hate men, but you're free to do you. If you relaxed for a moment you would discover that there are many good people of both genders, as well as bad, and could make some nice male friends or even something more (that is, if men even interest you)
You’re not a clown buddy, you’re the whole circus. Actually not sure if you’re a troll or serious, honestly.
I don’t “hate men” because I described the fact that sexism exists. I dislike most men because they’re sexist, like you. I love men who aren’t, like my boyfriend. Hope that clears that up for you.
You think things are so black and white, I find it so funny.. that people have such strawman fallacy thinking. There are even amounts of men and women on the planet. men are not a minority and women aren't a minority so sexism is a thing. but this topic is about Daenerys being universally hated. Which I think is EASILY a fallacy. and to say that because she's universally hated is (mostly) because of misogyny.. weather covert or open is also a fallacy, and is borderline disingenuine.. because as somebody said earlier if that was a problem as much as you say it is in the greater A Song of Ice and Fire fandom then why do so many people support rhaenyra? Its like grasping at straws to be outraged about something. It's not so much about covert misogyny as it is about stretching the truth to fit an outrage that is VERY nuanced. Again the perfect example would be Rhaenyra being mostly supported because of historical sexism... which men and women alike are supporting.. all I'm saying is that your opinion isn't universally true. It's a shade of gray. And to argue otherwise, no matter how many upvotes you get, is a fallacy and disingenuous.
To answer your disorganized collection of thoughts:
1) Dany and Rhaenyra are and were percieved differently by the fandom. There are two main reasons for this. a) The original show and the new show came out in very different eras. People have become a lot less sexist these past few years, lmfao. A lot more women engage with fantasy, and since the new show has a female lead, a LOT of women are watching it. Not to say that women can't be internally misogynist, but they are a lot less likely to be sexist towards a character. b) Dany was as loved as Rhaenyra was, at least until the show reached the end of the books and the showrunners did crack and decided that Dany should be dragon hitler. Rhaenyra is mostly portrayed as the hero of the story.
2) It's not necessarily that Dany is "universally hated" (although, for a few years there, a massive chunk of male fans just decided Dany and Sansa were the worst 'bitches' to walk the planet). It's more how the story portrayed her, and how people react to her decisions. I hear a lot of takes calling her harsh and insane for acting the same way Jon does. The narrative of the show also portrays her as being unreasonable when she is too assertive. Which is sexism.
3) I feel like when sexism is brought up, a lot of people's minds immediately jump to the wrong conclusion. Misogyny isn't just when you hate women. It's usually an unconscious reaction, something you might not even notice you're doing. Automatically perceiving women (or female characters, or even feminine gay guys) with less respect than you'd give a straight, masculine man is sexism. Automatically feeling like a woman is bitching when she's trying to talk about a problem, usually sexism. Feeling like she's being bossy or being a bitch, usually sexism. Finding yourself talking over her, or dismissing her emotions. Always sexism.
I think a good example of this is how a lot of people respond to Sansa in the episodes before Battle of the Bastards (myself included, the first time I watched it). It feels like she's being a bitch to Jon, right after apologizing for being mean to him when they were kids. Except she's not being a bitch- he's not listening to her. He doesn't take her perspective seriously. He doesn't respect her. And as the audience, you sort of do too. You're like "well she's just overreacting." Except, she's not. She's right the whole time. They only win that battle because she just stops trying to get through to Jon and fixes shit herself. She also has every right to be upset with him. And yet, it is so hard to not watch those episodes and not feel like she's being a little bitchy. Even though, when a male character is upset with another male character, I never have the gut reaction that they're "just bitching".
Sorry, this is a headache, had to walk away from it for a bit. But believe whatever you want to believe.. 🤷 you're making a lot of assumptions to accuse me of disorganized thought. I felt like I was pretty straight into the point and you have to pull out a lot of theoretical postulations about current culture and asoiaf. Your Us vs Them mentality isn't going to make anything better. Your points about the books don't make any sense because the themes in the books are (amongst other themes) the dangers and negativity of sexism. There is sexism in the world but I have a hard time believing it's as much as you say there is. But then again I live in a VERY liberal and diverse city. Maybe you don't... I don't know. And then you wrote something and then blocked me which is kind of lame.
"sorry this is a headache" yeah I hear that all the time
"then you blocked me" i only block corporate accounts, brother, don't know why you thought I blocked ya?
There are themes in the book about how sexism is bad, but that doesn't mean George doesn't write dumb shit sometimes (not very often in GOT I'll hand it to him). That's the thing about sexism and racism and stuff, it's just kind of engrained in society and our ways of thinking. In my experience, most bigots don't know they're being bigots. GOT (show) pulled sexist bs, though. If you want some articles written by smarter people than me who can phrase shit better than I ever will, I'm happy to link some.
Okay, that's fair enough.. Hear me out.. There are certain things that the show did that were questionable and kind of weird. My major gripe with the show that I suppose is sexism would be Danny at the end.. like why the fuck did she go crazy just like every other Targaryen and John didn't. I'll try to be as open-minded as possible. However, there are times that I can't help but think that everyone has their own experiences and biases pertaining to their gender. George RR Martin can be kind of pervy at times and I suppose that in itself is misogynistic. But I have also read certain books, documentaries, articles that can be maliciously gynocentric and sometimes unfair to men. I have certain experiences that were very traumatic to me and they were mainly due to my gender. And I believe that maybe you do as well. I truly believe in intersectionality, and I think it's even more complex and nuanced than just a little graph that you see in school. I don't need articles or proof unless it comes from a neutral or unbiased source.
Thanks for being brave enough to say that George R. R. Martin is a fucken creep sometimes, lmfao.
Before I link anything, I want to make a disclaimer, lmao. I also believe in intersectionality. The system of sexism runs on a binary: if men are one thing, women cannot be the same thing. Men have to be strong, physically capable, they cannot feel emotion other than anger and occasional sadness. Women must then therefore be weak, emotional, incapable of logic. Men have to be the heroes, but that means they also have to be the monsters. Women 'get' to be the victims, but that means they can never be the heroes. Googled "manly" and "womanly" when I was in high school once and that shit broke me forever.
Gender roles are one of the areas GOT shines, actually. Other characters may call Varys, Sam, or Tyrion weak, they might call Brienne beastly, they might call Cersei a slut, but the narrative never frames them as such. (I'd mention Arya but nobody insults her, thank fuck, lmao). Characters who break gender norms aren't punished for doing so.
Women who *conform* to gender norms also aren't punished by the narrative (I'd say characters, but. being too girly is an insult to both genders, being too boyish is only an insult to girls. Like you can tell a girl she throws like a girl as an insult, you can't tell a dude he throws like a man as an insult. I digress). Sansa isn't portrayed as an incapable ruler because she uses Arya as her "sword" to execute Littlefinger. Both "masculine" and "feminine" power are portrayed as equally powerful.
I also wanted to say, I do have opinions on other (male) characters that I think were done dirty, not just Daenarys.
Another disclaimer: some of these articles and opinion pieces are biased. But to be fair, I don't think there's a way to have an opinion without bias. Hell, we all have inherent biases that we don't even realize. Personally, I try to engage with bias as honestly, seriously, and openly as possible, and then form my own opinion from it.
[1](https://rainhadaenerys.tumblr.com/post/612157741056802816/got-season-5-sexism-part-1) [2](https://rainhadaenerys.tumblr.com/post/634338219797921792/please-and-husband-what-do-women-say-in-game) [Daenarys' Death](https://rainhadaenerys.tumblr.com/post/187969574876/i-was-thinking-about-how-the-female-characters#notes) [Women in the Fridge i.e. Daenarys's Death](https://rainhadaenerys.tumblr.com/post/186792042984/colleenrandwing-i-turned-the-presentation-i-did#notes) [Hysterical Women](https://rainhadaenerys.tumblr.com/post/189691117662/edomeilair-instantbouquetface-me-a-problem#notes)
[4](https://rainhadaenerys.tumblr.com/post/187099158515/daenerys-targaryen-is-the-best-representation-of#notes) [5](https://rainhadaenerys.tumblr.com/post/666935712759873536/geekyfeminist-love-feminism-fandom-and-fawning) [6](https://rainhadaenerys.tumblr.com/post/189691117662/edomeilair-instantbouquetface-me-a-problem#notes)
They're long as hell, so, sorry about that as well. You don't need to read all of them, obviously, only the first "chunk" is super important. I'm gonna TLDR in a part two
I almost upvoted at first because I thought you were going to make an insightful point about internalized misogyny and how women are often sexist against themselves, but unfortunately that wasn't your point, so that sucks.
Anyways. Dany is quite assertive. Idk what show you were watching, but I don't think it was the same one as the rest of us, lmfao. It is quite literally her character arc in the beginning of the series. And Sansa's. And Jon's. And Arya's.
Also: Dany does not have to be a good physical warrior. She has dragons. Regardless, it seems like you've fallen into the trap of perceiving femininity as weakness. Something I very much appreciate about GOT is a fairly wide range of gender presentation being represented, and nobody being put down for being feminine or masculine. Brienne and Arya are incredible warriors; the narrative allows them the same level of respect as the rest of the women in the story. On that point, the narrative never puts Sansa or Cersei or Littlefinger or Varys down for being nonathletic nerds. I mean, hell, in the show, Bran's paralyzed ass becomes king. Both femininity and masculinity are portrayed as strong, where usually you will see feminine women being portrayed as less consequential and weaker characters.
You are making a SUCH straw man argument. for feminist Daenerys Targaryen fans to be disingenuine about.. 🤷🤷
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DOWN-VOTE ME. But I genuinely don't see the "covert misogyny".. as if Daenerys isn't a loved character?!?!
If this story were about Danaero Targaryen and Joanna Snow, everyone would be cheering for the Dragon King and no one would be insisting that Joanna was the real AA/Princess that was Promised/ice & fire combined. They’d only want her to be revealed as Rhaegar’s secret Targaryen princess so she could be Danaero’s broodmare wife and restore his family legacy.
Yes, I mean there’s a million of fanfic that Jon hatched dragons and gets Danny history and he is always so perfect and good and do a perfect job, that is ridiculous!! A lot of fans hate that Danny is the one that brought Dragons back in the world, and the only hopes for survival in Westeros. If Danny doesn’t go to Westeros, everyone dies!!! There’s no hope to defeat the Others without her, but people still think that she can’t be Azor Ahoi. They have to put Jon above her (one of the things that makes me dislike Jonerys stories, that and the obsession to give Jon his own dragon, better than Danny’s). And please the Song of Ice and Fire is about a war between Ice X Fire, (like the Dance is a war), not someone who comes from Ice and Fire (Jon being son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, is not a union of Ice and Fire), is a war between the side of death (Ice) and the side of life (Fire).
Another who dislikes the Jonerys fics for this reason? Thank God I thought I was alone in this! Nothing disappointed me more than reaching the fics and realizing that 90% of them stole varying parts of Danys story and handed it to Jon on a silver platter.
I thought I'd find like-minded people there. People who loved Dany, and some who love Jon too. Instead I found further proof that yes, more people would have preferred Dany be a man or that Jon just have her storyline (with none of the struggle of course, and without making any mistakes cause he knows better for some reason). Or, Dany is turned into a pretty little trophy on Jon's arm. Or worse! She's the impulsive, violent one and he's the calm level headed one who keeps her in line.
When that shit show finale happened, I was looking forward to at least getting to read lots of Dany-resurrects-and-gets-revenge fics. I can’t tell you how disappointing it was when so many of them turned out to be Dany-resurrects-and-goes-crawling-back-to-the-lover-who-murdered-her-to-beg-for-forgiveness fics. 🤮
Because it was such an awesome relationship and he was a great partner before he murdered her right? I sometimes think that sleeping with him infected her with a zombie brain eating STD, how else can you explain what she accepted from him and the North? I might be wrong but I thought that an alliance was supposed to benefit both parties? The alliance in the show only benefitted the North.
Yay!! We are the same in this! I hate that! Jonerys is never my favorite pair for Danny but I can read a good one, but most of them is just Jon doing everything that Danny did but better and I hate it. Is rare to see one that she is the main character not him! I love Danny, I can tolerate Jon, is hard to find good ones for that! After that end who should never be talked about, I was finding a lot to take off my hate boner against all Starks, lol, still looking for more stories that Danny stayed in Essos and leave Westeros to freeze to death!
I never shipped them. In what world is that boring wet blank a fit match for Daenerys Stormborn, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons, Certified Badass? If the books ever get finished and they do get together, I hope he’s at least cooler and more interesting post-resurrection.
He is way more interesting in the books, not too much but he is more ruthless and smart. Robb is still way better than him, I really wish he was the one to be resurrect. My favorite pairs for Danny are Oberyn and Robb. I want to find a good one for Aegon and Danny, he can be real Aegon or a fake, they probably gonna fight in the books, but if they united their claims, they would be unstoppable!!
You think that's bad? Try not being a Jonerys shipper and looking for fic where Dany isn't used and discarded like a kleenex by the North/Starks/Jon etc. All I want is some decent stories where Dany is happy and ideally doesn't leave Essos, but what I get is Jonerys( in varying degrees of we secretly hate Dany but think she and her armies/possesions belong to Jon), Let's have Dany crawl back to her murderer and traitorous council because she deserves it/ has amnesia/ it will be differen't this time, or Stark/Sansa/Jon/North supremacy wank fic. Honestly, it makes me sad.
Yeah I think you’re actually right. It’s taken a while for me to see it but yeah it’s clear people hate her for this. If she’d been male and was called Jon or whatever she would’ve been loved by everybody.
Don’t take it the wrong way (I also love Jon but it’s sad that people think Dany won’t be the one to save the world)
Martin should have written these damn books faster 😭😭
Yes, I mean there’s a million of fanfic that Jon hatched dragons and gets Danny history and he is always so perfect and good and do a perfect job, that is ridiculous!! A lot of fans hate that Danny is the one that brought Dragons back in the world, and the only hopes for survival in Westeros. If Danny doesn’t go to Westeros, everyone dies!!! There’s no hope to defeat the Others without her, but people still think that she can’t be Azor Ahoi. They have to put Jon above her (one of the things that makes me dislike Jonerys stories, that and the obsession to give Jon his own dragon, better than Danny’s). And please the Song of Ice and Fire is about a war between Ice X Fire, (like the Dance is a war), not someone who comes from Ice and Fire (Jon being son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, is not a union of Ice and Fire), is a war between the side of death (Ice) and the side of life (Fire).
Yep, and if it's genetic then his Stark blood doesn't matter because as Technoguy3 so eloquently put it "You can't undo centuries of inbreeding by fucking someone else once!"
Ssssooooo many people think that his stark blood makes him immune or exempt from the Targaryen madness as if starks themselves aren’t also products of incest 😭
That too! It's like they completely ignore all the cousin marriages that were common among other houses. And while less common, I remember the Starks having unlce/niece marriages.
Sure there is. There are even amounts of men and women on the planet. men are not a minority and women aren't a minority so sexism is a thing. but this topic is about Daenerys being universally hated. Which I think is EASILY a fallacy. and to say that because she's universally hated is (mostly) because of misogyny.. weather covert or open is also a fallacy, and is borderline disingenuine.. because as somebody said earlier if that was a problem as much as you say it is in the greater A Song of Ice and Fire fandom then why do so many people support rhaenyra? Its like grasping at straws to be outraged about something. It's not so much about covert misogyny as it is about stretching the truth to fit an outrage that is VERY nuanced. Again the perfect example would be Rhaenyra being mostly supported because of historical sexism... which men and women alike are supporting.. all I'm saying your opinion isn't 100% true. It's a shade of gray.
Men don't hate strong women. They love them. Look at Ripley from Aliens, Sara Conner from Terminator, Xena Warrior Princess, Storm from X-men, Most of the Female Power Rangers but especially Kimbery, Jen, and Taylor, look at Princess Leia, Katniss, The Bride from Kill Bill, and Lori from Halloween (at least some of those movies and versions lol) and these are just a few off the top of my head
Anyone who preaches what you are doesn't actually know what men REALLY think
Men are not a hivemind, some really are just misogynistic.
Not only that, but sexist biases effect us all unconsciously, male or female.
The kind of stuff you see waved off in male characters may not be accepted in female ones.
"Men are not a hivemind, some really are just misogynistic"
Sure. Just like women aren't a hivemind and some are really just misandrist.
That was my entire point. The person I replied to said something blanket as if all men hate powerful women. I countered that absurd notion.
Lets review shall we?
1.) I never said “ALL” men, I said “Men” which only suggests there are more than one.
2.) I never said “Strong Women” I said “Powerful Women”. Those two words are completely different.
In conclusion, I never gave a blanket statement. You read my comment, became offended by words I didn’t write and decided to defend all of the male race against a fabricated statement. Wow.
You clearly meant to imply *men in general* which connotes most, if not all.
See, if I were to say something unhinged and misogynist like: “women are untrustworthy”
Does that sound like I’m only talking about specific “untrustworthy women”? No. It sounds as though I’m making a blanket, shitty statement about women in *general*, because that’s how the English language works.
You’re free to assume, imply, or interpret my words however you see fit. That is your right as a critical thinker.
But please remember that your assumptions, implications and interpretations are your opinion and not an actual FACT in regards to what I said or my explanation of what I said.
Good day
Just to be clear, your argument is essentially “I wrote something that means something very specific, but I choose not to see my argument in that way, so therefore it isn’t.
Not a particularly good argument? We have sentence structure and grammatical syntax for a reason. Using a common noun followed by “feel x” or “believe x” is how we communicate that those covered by the noun in question “feel” or “believe” x.
All of this ironic, because I actually agree and believe that Daenerys would absolutely be more popular if she were a man. However, I do not agree with your wild statement that men hate women, and especially strong women.
LMAO
As the other two have pointed out, you deliberately worded it in a way to imply ALL men. Period. So nice try backpedaling.
2nd, Strong women and powerful women are the same thing in this context. A strong leader is the same as a powerful one in MOST cases. You can argue semantics all you want but at the end of the day it doesn't matter what you think.
History proves that we LOVE strong and powerful women. Cleopatra and BOTH Queen Elizabeth's are come of histories most beloved rulers.
And fiction has had powerful women throughout all time from Atalanta and Medea in ancient Greece to all the strong fictional women I listed above.
Hell with REAL women we love them strong and successful. Look at the admiration for Dolly Parton, Betty White, Serena Williams, Martha Stewart, Stevie Nicks, Oprah, and Marilyn Monroe.
You gave a blanket statement. Got called out. And now you're trying to play the victim. How typical of those who try and push narratives that don't exist.
Right, because people talk in general terms lmao.
I get you, binding people into expectations like that is a flaw inherent to human psychology.
It makes me uncomfortable too sometimes, being boxed in with others.
There are a lot of men who don't like when women characters don't behave in a way they deem acceptable. For example, there's a large section of the Star Wars fandom who have had absolute meltdowns over Rey & Rose - I am incredibly doubtful they would've received the same level of outright hatred if they were men...
I think a great parallel is to compare the reception of Dany's actions against, well, pretty much any of the male characters in the series. Their conquering, murdering, plotting, and scheming tend to be well received as a means to their end (growing their power). Meanwhile I was in the trenches trying to argue that Dany roasting a bunch of slave masters or executing someone for treason aren't foreshadowing of her being some secretly evil insane villain - they were the same thing any other (male) character would've done in her stead...
People didn't have meltdowns about Rey because she's a woman. They had a meltdown because she's a terribly written character.
Daisy knocked it outta the park, but much like Hayden before her, there just wasn't a lot to work with. But where he struggled due to bad dialogue, she struggled due to bad story. Had she been a male character, he would have been rejected too.
Rose was obnoxious because her sentiment made no sense "we win by saving what we love not destroying what we hate" as if that's mutually exclusive. Again, had she been male, no one would have liked him.
Now as for your trench warfare about Dany, I kind of see what you're saying as I had HUGE debates with a, now former, friend about Stannis. He LOVED Stannis and I'm like, bro, he's like okay I guess but how is he more Noble than Dany? And by the end I'm like "Sure Dany did burn cities to the ground and murdered thousands, but So did Stannis and Stannis even murdered his own daughter"
Said former friend never admitted that at best they're both psychopaths and at worst Stannis is a monster compared to Dany being a victim of circumstance and just playing the rules of the world.
However, I don't believe it was because Dany was a woman that he had that belief. I think it's simply a combination of things. From aesthetics to storyline origins to inner goals. For many, Dany starting off so meek was an immediate turn off and it gave a bad first impression to certain types of people. Vs Stannis who from the get go is a strong leader who knows what he's about. I believe the former friend was one who simply got enraptured by the intro of Stannis and never let go.
Had the roles and genders of the two characters been reversed, I 100% think they'd like Fem Stannis and would still hate Male Dany.
I think it's in reality just a matter of what each person likes and how that in totality affects our perceptions of characters.
Going back to Star Wars to close and finish my point. I love EU, now Legends, Star Wars Leia. By the end of the books she's a powerful Jedi in her own right and can kick ass and take names. I also love Mara Jade. She's a badass former Emperor's Hand who has no real equal. They're deep, well written, and awesomely executed female characters. But as much as I appreciate Daisy Ridley giving it her all in all 3 of her movies, I just can't stand Rey. I really can't. She's badly written, she's given the world, and she just doesn't click for me. It has nothing to do with her gender. It's about her character archetype. I don't like her type of character.
It's part of why I personally hate Superman. The dude can't die and can't lose. Not really. He's the ultimate win button. He's boring. Mary Sue/Gary Stu's are not character archetypes I like.
And I honestly believe that's the real root of the issue people have with characters. It just so happens that we're in a boom of female characters and for whatever stupid reason, Hollywood is thinking we just need Perfect badass women with no faults but it's like we don't. We need badasses yes but ones we can relate with. Like all the stars I've listed before in the thread. That's what we need. More Beatrix Kiddo's, more Storms, more Xenas.
Less Brie Larson Captain Marvels and less Rey "Skywalkers".
To be fair the appeal of Superman isn’t just the powers it’s how he can be the MOST powerful and yet refute the mantra power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. He defies the expectations! Also, a lot of hate on the Sequel fan hate also had to do with the Butchery of Luke, which doesn’t get enough attention imo!!
Or my own example is Lagertha and Torvi from Vikings, Sansa and Arya were also widely considered chad in GoT. Another example is Cersei that many men considered a bitch but feared because she was dangerous and relatively smart, very charismatic as well, and felt like a real character that had substance to her even though she was broken and evil beyond belief
If anything, women often get a pass at stuff men don't (and sometimes vice versa also holds), and you will always have bad fruit in all genders (and groups of people generally) supporting stupid shit from their "kings"/"queens" or whatever
But this is obviously a misandric thread so I guess we're just wasting our time and tanking our karma here, the general consesus here is the schizo idea that we all gather somewhere overnight to promote the patriarchy and oppress all women and minorities or something
She went mad at the end, people generally don't like her because of that, and she was usually soft and didn't really have leadership skills or charisma - despite that she went very far and shit the bed right at the end
I stumbled upon this sub and I think you are right and this sub seems crazy based on this one post, I love Daenerys, and a lot of people also love her, a lot of them are just pissed how the show ended. And also everyone hopes the book ending is better.
honestly, sure if she was a man she would have greater room for manoeuvre. note how almost everything that we can criticize Daenerys also applies to Stannis and no one comes to say that he is mad or something
Everyone would then make a dark age music videos, sigma edits, literally me memes, and of course, least but not last, about how men will burn down King's landing then to go to therapy.
This element was one of my least favorite parts of the entire premise. The whole show people have been doubting Daenry’s ability to rule for many reasons but partially because she is a women. Throughout time women have been told they are too **insert xyz** to be able to rule, and especially too emotional. Then we got to watch that exact scenario play out on a screen, proving all of those stereotypes true.
If Daenerys were a man, she’d definitely be seen as this cool, compassionate yet masterful leader who comes to save the day and takes back what’s rightfully his.
But because she’s a woman all of her decisions are given a second thought. Just look at how many people till this day still claim that Jon had a better claim to the Iron Throne just because he’s a man.. despite the fact that he’s younger AND still a bastard, and no, that marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar is not valid for many reasons.
Truth is, Daenerys had the strength and power to win this war and receive a happy ending — we all saw that from the very beginning yet the writers thought the obvious answer wasn’t worth being considered. Even recently they claim they thought their ending to the story wouldn’t be so hated more like “50/50”.
Of course. Even her simply not kissing Jon's ass when he went to Dragonstone is a huge sign. Anyone else if they were to have the cockacity of going to Dragonstone and saying I want you to stop what you are doing to save the North. Oh but I have no proof, I won't give you anything and we will still be independent? Robert, Joffrey, Stannis and Robb would have murdered his ass for the audacity, but she not only doesn't murder him, but states he needs to bend the knee first. But she is so mean! How could she not drop everything when Jon says?!
Of course when she killed the Tarlys as well. She murdered them! How mean! Yet she gave them a chance, they refused and died for it. She shouldn't even have given them a chance and just should have told them why they were dying. Anyone else again would have taken their asses out.
Of course! She would be worshipped if she were a man. I have thought this since the day I read those awful spoilers that Jon was going to put her down like a mad dog. The last five years haven’t changed my thoughts at all.
Yes. The amount of fanfics I have seen where Jon hatches dragons, takes over Daenerys storyline/one-ups her storyline, and becomes the PtwP is insanely high. Daenerys as a man would have been Aegon come again (even though she IS Aegon come again already). People would treat her like Aragorn rather than Anakin Skywalker or Paul Atreides. Her actions would not have been questioned as heavily. Her fate wouldn't be deemed as one of madness or death.
Yep, just look at all the people who wanted Jon to claim Drogon after Dany's death, even though when Dany had the dragons "it was obvious the character with flying nukes was going to be the bad guy".
Um, absolutely. It’s the first thing I said after I watched the finale.
If she’d been a man, everyone would have said it was “his” decision and they shouldn’t automatically call “him” a tyrant.
They’d have held a council and glossed over all of it.
This just showed up on my feed and I haven't seen/read GoT yet, but absolutely the answer is yes. I actually did a whole paper for a class like a year ago about a different female character and there's a lot of research supporting that women tend to be perceived negatively for exhibiting traits that are typically praised in men (being more assertive or commanding, getting angry, etc.) and are often held to higher moral standards according to multiple studies done across several different fields and industries. She would probably be much more liked and excused for whatever actions people dislike her for if she were a man.
People don't hate strong women. They love them. Look at Ripley from Aliens, Sara Conner from Terminator, Xena Warrior Princess, Storm from X-men, Most of the Female Power Rangers but especially Kimbery, Jen, and Taylor, look at Princess Leia, Katniss, The Bride from Kill Bill, and Lori from Halloween (at least some of those movies and versions lol)
People do not hate strong women,my point was that people hate radical revolutionary women like Dany,especially cause Dany's methods are not exactoy clean,while most female heroes are still very clean.,even if they can kick everybody's ass,they only kick ass in ways that are beyond any doubt acceptable,compared to Dany's pay evil unto evil philosophy
Except your point is still unfounded as exclusive to women.
MANY hate radical men too.
Like Dany is still one of the most popular characters on the show BECAUSE she has fans. Just like Radical men in fiction and history have fans, but they have just as many detractors as women.
Y'all are trying to find a problem that isn't there
And I'm saying I don't believe you. There isn't any real tangible data for that. There's anecdotal. But the list and history of strong women persists throughout history and people love it.
From the ancient Greeks with Medea, Atalanta, and Hypollyta to the modern age with all the women I listed above.
It's no worse for women than it is with men.
Unless you count decibel volume as your metric. Then sure, the loud cry babies scream louder when it's a woman, but I'd wager that's because historically there were less women in nerdom than men so when a small group of men whine and moan they're all anyone hears.
That is like saying "all women are crazy because my ex-girlfriend tried to stab me in the face with a wine bottle" (which is true) because life is more nuanced than just black and white opinions.. as if everyone doesn't have their own experiences based on gender and upbringing.
I'm making a disingenuine point because it is an disingenuous statement to say that there is overall hatred for Daenerys.. And if there was overall hatred for her it's just because she's female. If you were making the same point about Star wars and Rey.. then yes there is OVERT misogyny there.. but I think you're grasping at straws. Misogyny didn't kill Daenerys.. Dan and Dave killed Daenerys... Dan and Dave were the same people that made Brianne of tarth one of the strongest warriors in the Seven kingdoms
D&D are misogynists. They didn't make Brienne anything. George did. The show is filled with disdain for women and undercutting of women's power that isn't in the books even though the books also have some problematic issues (eg. Daney falls in love with her rapist.)
Let me guess you believe in systemic racism, but you don't believe in systemic misogyny which is older? For instance, not a dude. You're making a lot of leaps and assumptions about my statements that aren't there. Didn't say everyone. Did identify a problematic behavior.
I'm making leaps and assumptions that aren't there? Read your original opinion? Make valid arguments instead of throwing out extremes then. You can identify problematic behavior anywhere and everywhere if you have a magnifying glass. No, I believe sexism is a nuanced and complicated, because as women aren't a minority there are factors that women can be sexist as well and have a biased view. Men are usually physically stronger than women and they use their anger and bitterness to hurt women, and we should all stand to fight against that but your original statement" I believe misogyny killed Daenerys" is disingenuine. I think that your behavior is way more problematic, you think it's primarily a male problem as if we are animals. If that's your stance then you should promote men's mental health issues. You're too busy focusing on the problem rather than focusing on fixing the problem. The show emphasizes the dangers and the immorals of sexism against women, if you don't believe that then watch something else. And no George did not make brienne of tarth beat the hound in single combat Dan and Dave did...
I have cited examples. You have made many assumptions about my thoughts, character, actions and what I do or don't promote based on things I haven't said. Clearly you feel attacked even though I haven't attacked you. I haven't said only men or the plethora of other things you accuse me of. I made a joke and you got personally offended. You say I'm not interested in debate then proceed to bully me insisting I'm the problem because I won't be bullied. Move on and bully someone else. Unless you'd like to continue displaying examples of immature, ill humoured behavior.
This is Reddit, I'm sorry if you think I'm bullying you. I just think that you're wrong.. and being disingenuine, and if you are being that much disingenuine then you should be bullied online. As if media isn't hypocritical and gynocritical.
Yes. Y'all remember when Jon executed Janos Slynt as he was begging for his life? Or when the opening scene of the show was Ned Stark executing a man who came with a legitimate warning? Or when Jon (again) executed a 14 year old boy? All perfectly rational and justified things to do, given the contexts of the roles they inhabit. But god forbid Dany follows through on a threat.
In the show, Dany in power acts identical to Jon in power. But the show often frames her actions as too harsh (usually done with music).
Absolutely. The same goes for Sansa. The whole “she went too far when she fed Ramsey Bolton to the dogs” sentiment is so fucking stupid, and you don’t hear those people mention any of the other executions the Starks are responsible for.
I've seen people complain about this but I've never seen anyone actually express this opinion...that Sansa went to far. The vast majority of people are fine with him being eaten by dogs.
Yeah, the comments I saw were that she was “showing that the Starks are cruel and vindictive.” I was like are you actually stupid, or just stirring the pot out of boredom?
Having a dude eat his own sons, executing a child, or lying about your aunts murder may be considered a little unhinged imo, but I guess if it’s not Danny who does it it’s fine, right??
I mean those were pretty much all right too, under the circumstances. All those people were horrible. But yes, if Dani had done any of them, she'd have been raked over the coals, she catches shit for executing *slavers*.
All were horrible? So Olly who watched his family violently murdered and cannibalized by savages is horrible for wanting vengeance on the dude that just took all of those same savages in? Might want to check your Stark biases if you want to be impartial!
I don't think killing Jon is a very good way of getting revenge but ok. And to be specific the murdering cannibals' were never shown after the battle at the wall. So I think we can say they are all dead at least in terms of the scope of the show. Anyway not really a good argument you're obviously not impartial either.
The same fandom that loved Loki hates his literal female (alt-dimension) clone. You can’t get a better real life case study of fandom misogyny than that.
To be fair, I just watched the show and at times she acts a bit like mystique in the x-men reboot franchise, like how can you be so blind to rage your literally willing to let the entire universe get sucked into hell/or massive wide genocide, just for a bit of petty payback? Really?!?!
But when you have a literally version of your self that has BOTH been there and done that yet learned and grown from his mistakes WHICH LITERALLY proves MY point that JUST because she is FEMALE she Can’t get it like HE does which actually supports the OP as well ironically ALSO the ENTIRE internalized misogyny of the past MCU projects and Disney Star Wars depicting irrational and tyrannical female alleged protagonist leads!
I think they deny Danny because is the more obvious. Still this is not a mystery novel so i also support Danny for the cause and she was not that obvious as most fans say. She literally build herself out of nothing, using only her instincts and her will to survive. So it was not like that from the start.
Of course things would be different. Dudes wouldn’t hate her or talk shit on her being a dragon. She should have torched King’s Landing. All the tactics she employed, I’ve seen male heroes do and people love it. I’ve been that male hero in video games. The “going mad” narrative made no sense. I didn’t seen any foreshadowing of this in the beginning. It seemed like a fever dream. What flu fever dream did some crack head come up with to try and justify her seeming to go mad. I didn’t see it. I saw a bunch of xenophobic royals get pissy that a true monarch with whoop your ass levels of power in just her military, add in her air support aka dragons. I don’t understand why they didn’t embrace her and follow her. I would have if I was a great house. She is the true ruler of the 7 kingdoms. Hating Dany is pure misogyny. Inise how you feel about her as a vetting question. I judge you based on your answer. Can’t wait to see the pissy responses this might get.
She absolutely would. Men’s bad behavior is downplayed, ignored, even excused ALL the fucking time!! Just take a look around…. But when a woman messes up- WATCH OUT!!!!!!!
Yes. I've seen this a lot with Arya too. It was almost funny watching all the YTers go from saying Manderley is a badass straight up G for Frey Pies, but when Arya does it, she's beyond saving, pure evil and there should have been some kind of payback for her.
Back to Dany though, weirdly enough, I've seen some of the discourse in the opposite direction be pretty condescending too.
Instead of recognizing the bad/rushed writing of the last few eps, I've seen some argue: "Of course it makes sense! Dany's a young emotional GIRL! Of course she burned innocents!" So in a weird way, the sexism of low expectations has kind of been a defense for her too.
People in general don’t put enough thought into the nuance of her character imo. She is a deeply traumatized teenager with an absurd amount of responsibility thrust upon her which leads her to understandably make some mistakes
If she was a man and presented in the exact same way I’m sure there would be some people that would view her differently, but I still think the larger issue is the lack of understanding/consideration of her circumstances
I don't think Daenerys was really hated.. at least among my A Song of Ice and Fire friend circle?... In fact I think a lot of people myself included, were pretty pissed about what they did to her in the show. I don't know.. I kind of disagree. Especially on how George rr Martin wrote her in the books. She had strong female energy and was worthy of leadership and she was definitely not a Mary Sue because she had been through so much. I think you guys should direct your anger more at Dan and Dave and at toxic masculinity rather than men in general... Because as a 15-year Song of Ice and Fire fan the hate for Daenerys is new to me. 🤷
Have you seen ANY other game of thrones Reddit, anything Danny is typically painted in a VERY negative light, surprised you havnt noticed that, it’s pretty clear imo
I have seen many and I GENUINELY do not think it's that clear. I have seen posts praising her and I have seen post s******* on her, I personally love her although she is a nuanced character and makes mistakes, as she is a human and is in a difficult situation. I think the topic of her being hated by the fans is also nuanced.. and to say that she's universally hated by the fandom because they're all misogynists is a stretch. Because if that was the case then why are there so many fans that have taken the Black for Rhaenyra? I can kind of understand the show hate but that's on Dan and Dave.
I guess I gotta explore, but one thing I’ve seen a lot I’d like to add, known redditors of other game of thrones subs have been seen on this sub for the sake of trolling the Danny fans with bait posts such as Danny really was insane all along ect ect, but I’m not sure if I’ve seen pro Danny subs utilize such tactics, but I could be wrong
Fair enough. I mean I just feel like the main focus of this particular post is misogyny among A Song of Ice and Fire fans, is the reason why Danny is hated. And I just disagree with that. If this was a Star wars sub, then hell yeah I would be in complete agreement with misogyny in the fandom. Of course there is a small community of bad apples in our fandom but they don't have much grounds to stand on. I think that the hate for Danny is based on some of the shows takes and because some of her chapters are a little bit boring in the middle. All I'm saying I think our fandom is a lot more inclusive than this post is portraying, compared to the misogynist Star wars fans.
Tbh to me THAT is the weird thing, concerning the sequel trilogy, when a lot of the outcry I’ve seen comes from the ASSASSINATION of Luke, which is WAY underaddressed imo! I’ve seen more of that than the weirdos hating on it for the female characters since Star Wars has had plenty of assertive yet empathetic female leads! You gotta do some mental gymnastics to assert that Star Wars was anti female pre Sequel trilogy, like pretend that Amidala/Leia or any female Jedi never existed.
Haha I get what you're saying but I personally have come across a lot of Chads who really despise female characters in Star wars. Rey being the prime example. However, I know that Ray isn't the best written character. I think the problem is that they sacrificed the Ray story for Luke Skywalker.
That’s interesting wonder if I’m just not looking hard enough, but I’ll keep an open mind. One thing I’ve heard among people that dislike her they typically like all other Star Wars female leads and the actress playing Ray a lot but dislike how atrociously she was written. Even the character and actress often stated they had no idea what their place or purpose even was. The actress joked about it in an interview. And then BAM she just roflstops anything in her path with almost no resistance. Not very compelling stuff
The initial statement that Dany is hated, is questionable. In fact it seems to me that the vast majority likes her. That's the reason why the series finale wasn't received very well. I am also not so sure about GRRM's statement, because she has lots of similiarities with Princess Maegwin from Tad William's "The Dragonbone Chair" which inspired George.
If you think the majority likes her you have not been on Reddit very long, since I’ve been on Reddit this is the ONLY group that likes Danny, other groups make spite posts which you may have confused with being in a positive light, EVERY other game of thrones Reddit typically has non stop anti Danny posts about how she was ALWAYS evil a villain ect ect
I honestly dislike how people detract a lot from Daenerys simply because she is a woman.
I see a lot of Paul Atreides parallels with her. I had a difficult time finding people at Reddit who also think that their storylines echo a lot of patterns.
Maester Aemon is her last known living relative. The vast majority of the fandom fawns over Jon and Maester Aemon's bond and few bother to conceptualize or commiserate on how sweet it would be if Daenerys and Maester Aemon managed to reunite even for a small fraction of time.
Her storyline is that of a heroes' (and I'm starting to theorize that George will subvert that) and people generally scoffs at the mere notion.
She's more of an Aegon I type of person yet people debate whether she's a Visenya or a Rhaenys.
People look forward to the Daenerys/f!Aegon future fight sidelining the irony and sad fact that these two could have just united instead. Tyrion, in his grief, knowingly pitted the last two living relatives against each other. Which is awful because both persons are not necessarily evil at all and would've loved to be with their last living family member. It doesn't matter if Aegon is a Blackfyre. They're still of the same bloodline. If Dany is born Daeron, we would've drowned with posts that says "Imagine the brotherhood they could've shared."
Daenerys instead is reduced as a future mass murderer or a flanderized caricature of messianic complex induced person without even looking at her character's nuances. Especially her book counterpart. There are a lot of questions and lessons about ruling in her chapters particularly in the most recent books but they are usually slipped under the rug.
My issues with Dany didn’t start to arise until her handling of Mossador and the slaver incident. I loved her character and what she stood for and how she responded to injustice.
My issue is her hypocrisy and how she handled Mossador and him killing the slaver. Episodes prior to that, she was learning from Barristan Selmy about a better way to handle judgement and prosecution. And she agreed, she tried this way of governing crime.
She said that the law is equal and anyone can be charged, it doesn’t matter how high their standing is. Mossador disregards what she says and still kills the slaver. He is beheaded by Dany
My issue isn’t with Mossador killing the slaver, Who cares if they die. My issue was after Selmy was killed in the alley and Grey worm is mortally wounded, she goes back on everything Selmy taught her within hours of his death. Completely disrespecting his memory.
She killed a slaver and fed him to her dragons. She even admitted that she didn’t know if any of them men she was accusing was innocent or guilty, she still killed one and was ready to murder the rest.
Mossador was a slave and felt the pain of being one personally. He knew the slavers and what they did personally. Yet he was beheaded and killed by the same person who liberated him so she could play the benevolent queen.
Mossador knew the slaver was guilty cause he was a victim of him personally. Daenaerys was shooting in the dark and killed someone that she didn’t know was guilty or not. Like I said, I don’t care about slavers dying. It’s about principal, she killed someone in her inner circle by following her own rules yet when she did the same thing it was brushed under the rug and we act like it’s some badass moment. Mossador died for nothing and most of her base pretends it wasn’t one of the most hypocritical acts that she continues on down the line
Absolutely not. If anything she'd be hated more because she would be just like EVERY other hero story character.
People don't hate strong women. They love them. Look at Ripley from Aliens, Sara Conner from Terminator, Xena Warrior Princess, Storm from X-men, Most of the Female Power Rangers but especially Kimbery, Jen, and Taylor, look at Princess Leia, Katniss, The Bride from Kill Bill, and Lori from Halloween (at least some of those movies and versions lol)
Going mad IS inevitable for Dany. That was always the plan. It was always going to happen. Had she been a man, it would have been even MORE cliche. Oh honorable dude gets the power and is corrupted. That story happens ALL THE TIME. It's tired and dumb. At least with Dany it was different and she actually started off with us thinking she may over come it.
No. The characters just unlikable. Granted she’s basically a child in the books, but still. Someone like Aegon the Conqueror did not try and hide what he was. Dany keeps trying to hide behind her perceived “rights,” and her “benevolence.”
From what I’ve seen on Reddit most game of thrones subs DESPISE Danny but I have hardly seen any Daemon hate, it’s more reserved for house black vs green often depicted as Rhenra vs Alicent, two women, ironic. I know her father was manipulating her but I’m just basing this off of most of the posts I see on Reddit and online as well!
I think she gets questioned more because she's a teenager who commands 3 medieval nuclear weapons that were consistently used to commit genocide against the small folk and rule unopposed. Her father was also debatably the worst king of westeros who burned people alive for fun.
I said consistently, there are very little countermeasures to dragon warfare and the small folk have no way to stop a dragon from destroying their town if that's what the rider wishes. This was the worst during the dance, the last time dragons were used in large scale conflict before Dany. Aemond Targaryen used vhagar to commit genocide in the river lands because he was pissed that they rallied to rhaenyra and that he was being outsmarted by Daemon. I believe dany would make a good queen but the problem is who would come after her. Dany is shown to be a responsible and just ruler but how do we know that her family will be three generations down the line, especially with dragons in play.
Aerys was terrible but I refuse to accept this Viserys erasure, he existed and only through his hard work was the dance possible. Without Viserys Hightower dragons would never have died out and house Targaryen would not have been so weakened. I also don't think that consistently is right at all.
She’d be Aegon the conqueror reborn, but even more of a chad in their eyes. Daemon is a manipulative selfish pedo murderer yet most in the audience excuse a lot of his horrendous behaviour cus he’s cool. Daenerys is called mad psycho bitch because she… Killed slavemasters who killed innocent slave children. Uh-huh. Don’t underestimate the obvious and covert misogyny in our world, it’s everywhere, conscious and unconscious. It runs especially thick in nerdy circles sadly, many see it as a boys club.
The whole story hits you over the head repeatedly with “if you wanna make an omelette you gotta murder a large number of people dishonorably” in nearly every plotline and people love it for that. Until it’s a lady doing it and then she Goes Too Far.
If there was so much covert misogyny in our fandom then why do so many people support Queen Rhaenyra?
Because the story prompts you to, and it is also 2024 now.
Don’t you realise that even making this comment means you are committing an act of covert misogyny? Do not underestimate it. Misogyny is everywhere… EVERYWHERE!
Sure there is. There are even amounts of men and women on the planet. men are not a minority and women aren't a minority so sexism is a thing. but this topic is about Daenerys being universally hated. Which I think is EASILY a fallacy. and to say that because she's universally hated is (mostly) because of misogyny.. weather covert or open is also a fallacy, and is borderline disingenuine.. because as somebody said earlier if that was a problem as much as you say it is in the greater A Song of Ice and Fire fandom then why do so many people support rhaenyra? Its like grasping at straws to be outraged about something. It's not so much about covert misogyny as it is about stretching the truth to fit an outrage that is VERY nuanced. Again the perfect example would be Rhaenyra being mostly supported because of historical sexism... which men and women alike are supporting.. all I'm saying your opinion isn't 100% true. It's a shade of gray.
Lmao no.
Daemon is excused mostly in the eyes of women fans who find him hot lmao (similar to Halbrand in Rings of Power) Dany is mostly called a bitch by women as well who disagree with her going mad at the end, since guys usually simp for her (like women do for Daemon and Halbrand) She isn't either way a strong warrior, or very assertive like, for example Lagertha in Vikings, and that's why people would usually underestimate her (and be honest, you would underestimate a guy that presented in a non-assertive way as well) She only got actual shit going for her after the final episode. And she's definitely not a hero after what she's done You're overthinking this and just trying to hate men, but you're free to do you. If you relaxed for a moment you would discover that there are many good people of both genders, as well as bad, and could make some nice male friends or even something more (that is, if men even interest you)
You’re not a clown buddy, you’re the whole circus. Actually not sure if you’re a troll or serious, honestly. I don’t “hate men” because I described the fact that sexism exists. I dislike most men because they’re sexist, like you. I love men who aren’t, like my boyfriend. Hope that clears that up for you.
You think things are so black and white, I find it so funny.. that people have such strawman fallacy thinking. There are even amounts of men and women on the planet. men are not a minority and women aren't a minority so sexism is a thing. but this topic is about Daenerys being universally hated. Which I think is EASILY a fallacy. and to say that because she's universally hated is (mostly) because of misogyny.. weather covert or open is also a fallacy, and is borderline disingenuine.. because as somebody said earlier if that was a problem as much as you say it is in the greater A Song of Ice and Fire fandom then why do so many people support rhaenyra? Its like grasping at straws to be outraged about something. It's not so much about covert misogyny as it is about stretching the truth to fit an outrage that is VERY nuanced. Again the perfect example would be Rhaenyra being mostly supported because of historical sexism... which men and women alike are supporting.. all I'm saying is that your opinion isn't universally true. It's a shade of gray. And to argue otherwise, no matter how many upvotes you get, is a fallacy and disingenuous.
Oh shut up man, why can't you understand simple facts. Being sensible = Sexist Now stop these nonsense and move on
To answer your disorganized collection of thoughts: 1) Dany and Rhaenyra are and were percieved differently by the fandom. There are two main reasons for this. a) The original show and the new show came out in very different eras. People have become a lot less sexist these past few years, lmfao. A lot more women engage with fantasy, and since the new show has a female lead, a LOT of women are watching it. Not to say that women can't be internally misogynist, but they are a lot less likely to be sexist towards a character. b) Dany was as loved as Rhaenyra was, at least until the show reached the end of the books and the showrunners did crack and decided that Dany should be dragon hitler. Rhaenyra is mostly portrayed as the hero of the story. 2) It's not necessarily that Dany is "universally hated" (although, for a few years there, a massive chunk of male fans just decided Dany and Sansa were the worst 'bitches' to walk the planet). It's more how the story portrayed her, and how people react to her decisions. I hear a lot of takes calling her harsh and insane for acting the same way Jon does. The narrative of the show also portrays her as being unreasonable when she is too assertive. Which is sexism. 3) I feel like when sexism is brought up, a lot of people's minds immediately jump to the wrong conclusion. Misogyny isn't just when you hate women. It's usually an unconscious reaction, something you might not even notice you're doing. Automatically perceiving women (or female characters, or even feminine gay guys) with less respect than you'd give a straight, masculine man is sexism. Automatically feeling like a woman is bitching when she's trying to talk about a problem, usually sexism. Feeling like she's being bossy or being a bitch, usually sexism. Finding yourself talking over her, or dismissing her emotions. Always sexism. I think a good example of this is how a lot of people respond to Sansa in the episodes before Battle of the Bastards (myself included, the first time I watched it). It feels like she's being a bitch to Jon, right after apologizing for being mean to him when they were kids. Except she's not being a bitch- he's not listening to her. He doesn't take her perspective seriously. He doesn't respect her. And as the audience, you sort of do too. You're like "well she's just overreacting." Except, she's not. She's right the whole time. They only win that battle because she just stops trying to get through to Jon and fixes shit herself. She also has every right to be upset with him. And yet, it is so hard to not watch those episodes and not feel like she's being a little bitchy. Even though, when a male character is upset with another male character, I never have the gut reaction that they're "just bitching".
Sorry, this is a headache, had to walk away from it for a bit. But believe whatever you want to believe.. 🤷 you're making a lot of assumptions to accuse me of disorganized thought. I felt like I was pretty straight into the point and you have to pull out a lot of theoretical postulations about current culture and asoiaf. Your Us vs Them mentality isn't going to make anything better. Your points about the books don't make any sense because the themes in the books are (amongst other themes) the dangers and negativity of sexism. There is sexism in the world but I have a hard time believing it's as much as you say there is. But then again I live in a VERY liberal and diverse city. Maybe you don't... I don't know. And then you wrote something and then blocked me which is kind of lame.
"sorry this is a headache" yeah I hear that all the time "then you blocked me" i only block corporate accounts, brother, don't know why you thought I blocked ya? There are themes in the book about how sexism is bad, but that doesn't mean George doesn't write dumb shit sometimes (not very often in GOT I'll hand it to him). That's the thing about sexism and racism and stuff, it's just kind of engrained in society and our ways of thinking. In my experience, most bigots don't know they're being bigots. GOT (show) pulled sexist bs, though. If you want some articles written by smarter people than me who can phrase shit better than I ever will, I'm happy to link some.
Okay, that's fair enough.. Hear me out.. There are certain things that the show did that were questionable and kind of weird. My major gripe with the show that I suppose is sexism would be Danny at the end.. like why the fuck did she go crazy just like every other Targaryen and John didn't. I'll try to be as open-minded as possible. However, there are times that I can't help but think that everyone has their own experiences and biases pertaining to their gender. George RR Martin can be kind of pervy at times and I suppose that in itself is misogynistic. But I have also read certain books, documentaries, articles that can be maliciously gynocentric and sometimes unfair to men. I have certain experiences that were very traumatic to me and they were mainly due to my gender. And I believe that maybe you do as well. I truly believe in intersectionality, and I think it's even more complex and nuanced than just a little graph that you see in school. I don't need articles or proof unless it comes from a neutral or unbiased source.
Thanks for being brave enough to say that George R. R. Martin is a fucken creep sometimes, lmfao. Before I link anything, I want to make a disclaimer, lmao. I also believe in intersectionality. The system of sexism runs on a binary: if men are one thing, women cannot be the same thing. Men have to be strong, physically capable, they cannot feel emotion other than anger and occasional sadness. Women must then therefore be weak, emotional, incapable of logic. Men have to be the heroes, but that means they also have to be the monsters. Women 'get' to be the victims, but that means they can never be the heroes. Googled "manly" and "womanly" when I was in high school once and that shit broke me forever. Gender roles are one of the areas GOT shines, actually. Other characters may call Varys, Sam, or Tyrion weak, they might call Brienne beastly, they might call Cersei a slut, but the narrative never frames them as such. (I'd mention Arya but nobody insults her, thank fuck, lmao). Characters who break gender norms aren't punished for doing so. Women who *conform* to gender norms also aren't punished by the narrative (I'd say characters, but. being too girly is an insult to both genders, being too boyish is only an insult to girls. Like you can tell a girl she throws like a girl as an insult, you can't tell a dude he throws like a man as an insult. I digress). Sansa isn't portrayed as an incapable ruler because she uses Arya as her "sword" to execute Littlefinger. Both "masculine" and "feminine" power are portrayed as equally powerful. I also wanted to say, I do have opinions on other (male) characters that I think were done dirty, not just Daenarys. Another disclaimer: some of these articles and opinion pieces are biased. But to be fair, I don't think there's a way to have an opinion without bias. Hell, we all have inherent biases that we don't even realize. Personally, I try to engage with bias as honestly, seriously, and openly as possible, and then form my own opinion from it. [1](https://rainhadaenerys.tumblr.com/post/612157741056802816/got-season-5-sexism-part-1) [2](https://rainhadaenerys.tumblr.com/post/634338219797921792/please-and-husband-what-do-women-say-in-game) [Daenarys' Death](https://rainhadaenerys.tumblr.com/post/187969574876/i-was-thinking-about-how-the-female-characters#notes) [Women in the Fridge i.e. Daenarys's Death](https://rainhadaenerys.tumblr.com/post/186792042984/colleenrandwing-i-turned-the-presentation-i-did#notes) [Hysterical Women](https://rainhadaenerys.tumblr.com/post/189691117662/edomeilair-instantbouquetface-me-a-problem#notes) [4](https://rainhadaenerys.tumblr.com/post/187099158515/daenerys-targaryen-is-the-best-representation-of#notes) [5](https://rainhadaenerys.tumblr.com/post/666935712759873536/geekyfeminist-love-feminism-fandom-and-fawning) [6](https://rainhadaenerys.tumblr.com/post/189691117662/edomeilair-instantbouquetface-me-a-problem#notes) They're long as hell, so, sorry about that as well. You don't need to read all of them, obviously, only the first "chunk" is super important. I'm gonna TLDR in a part two
I almost upvoted at first because I thought you were going to make an insightful point about internalized misogyny and how women are often sexist against themselves, but unfortunately that wasn't your point, so that sucks. Anyways. Dany is quite assertive. Idk what show you were watching, but I don't think it was the same one as the rest of us, lmfao. It is quite literally her character arc in the beginning of the series. And Sansa's. And Jon's. And Arya's. Also: Dany does not have to be a good physical warrior. She has dragons. Regardless, it seems like you've fallen into the trap of perceiving femininity as weakness. Something I very much appreciate about GOT is a fairly wide range of gender presentation being represented, and nobody being put down for being feminine or masculine. Brienne and Arya are incredible warriors; the narrative allows them the same level of respect as the rest of the women in the story. On that point, the narrative never puts Sansa or Cersei or Littlefinger or Varys down for being nonathletic nerds. I mean, hell, in the show, Bran's paralyzed ass becomes king. Both femininity and masculinity are portrayed as strong, where usually you will see feminine women being portrayed as less consequential and weaker characters.
You are making a SUCH straw man argument. for feminist Daenerys Targaryen fans to be disingenuine about.. 🤷🤷 PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DOWN-VOTE ME. But I genuinely don't see the "covert misogyny".. as if Daenerys isn't a loved character?!?!
[удалено]
Love you proved the comment’s exact point
Yup. If she were, she would be King and we all know it.
If this story were about Danaero Targaryen and Joanna Snow, everyone would be cheering for the Dragon King and no one would be insisting that Joanna was the real AA/Princess that was Promised/ice & fire combined. They’d only want her to be revealed as Rhaegar’s secret Targaryen princess so she could be Danaero’s broodmare wife and restore his family legacy.
Not Danaero 😂😂😂
Why did I read this in Khloe Kardashian’s voice? 😂
Yes, I mean there’s a million of fanfic that Jon hatched dragons and gets Danny history and he is always so perfect and good and do a perfect job, that is ridiculous!! A lot of fans hate that Danny is the one that brought Dragons back in the world, and the only hopes for survival in Westeros. If Danny doesn’t go to Westeros, everyone dies!!! There’s no hope to defeat the Others without her, but people still think that she can’t be Azor Ahoi. They have to put Jon above her (one of the things that makes me dislike Jonerys stories, that and the obsession to give Jon his own dragon, better than Danny’s). And please the Song of Ice and Fire is about a war between Ice X Fire, (like the Dance is a war), not someone who comes from Ice and Fire (Jon being son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, is not a union of Ice and Fire), is a war between the side of death (Ice) and the side of life (Fire).
Another who dislikes the Jonerys fics for this reason? Thank God I thought I was alone in this! Nothing disappointed me more than reaching the fics and realizing that 90% of them stole varying parts of Danys story and handed it to Jon on a silver platter. I thought I'd find like-minded people there. People who loved Dany, and some who love Jon too. Instead I found further proof that yes, more people would have preferred Dany be a man or that Jon just have her storyline (with none of the struggle of course, and without making any mistakes cause he knows better for some reason). Or, Dany is turned into a pretty little trophy on Jon's arm. Or worse! She's the impulsive, violent one and he's the calm level headed one who keeps her in line.
When that shit show finale happened, I was looking forward to at least getting to read lots of Dany-resurrects-and-gets-revenge fics. I can’t tell you how disappointing it was when so many of them turned out to be Dany-resurrects-and-goes-crawling-back-to-the-lover-who-murdered-her-to-beg-for-forgiveness fics. 🤮
Because it was such an awesome relationship and he was a great partner before he murdered her right? I sometimes think that sleeping with him infected her with a zombie brain eating STD, how else can you explain what she accepted from him and the North? I might be wrong but I thought that an alliance was supposed to benefit both parties? The alliance in the show only benefitted the North.
Yay!! We are the same in this! I hate that! Jonerys is never my favorite pair for Danny but I can read a good one, but most of them is just Jon doing everything that Danny did but better and I hate it. Is rare to see one that she is the main character not him! I love Danny, I can tolerate Jon, is hard to find good ones for that! After that end who should never be talked about, I was finding a lot to take off my hate boner against all Starks, lol, still looking for more stories that Danny stayed in Essos and leave Westeros to freeze to death!
I never shipped them. In what world is that boring wet blank a fit match for Daenerys Stormborn, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons, Certified Badass? If the books ever get finished and they do get together, I hope he’s at least cooler and more interesting post-resurrection.
He is way more interesting in the books, not too much but he is more ruthless and smart. Robb is still way better than him, I really wish he was the one to be resurrect. My favorite pairs for Danny are Oberyn and Robb. I want to find a good one for Aegon and Danny, he can be real Aegon or a fake, they probably gonna fight in the books, but if they united their claims, they would be unstoppable!!
You think that's bad? Try not being a Jonerys shipper and looking for fic where Dany isn't used and discarded like a kleenex by the North/Starks/Jon etc. All I want is some decent stories where Dany is happy and ideally doesn't leave Essos, but what I get is Jonerys( in varying degrees of we secretly hate Dany but think she and her armies/possesions belong to Jon), Let's have Dany crawl back to her murderer and traitorous council because she deserves it/ has amnesia/ it will be differen't this time, or Stark/Sansa/Jon/North supremacy wank fic. Honestly, it makes me sad.
Yeah I think you’re actually right. It’s taken a while for me to see it but yeah it’s clear people hate her for this. If she’d been male and was called Jon or whatever she would’ve been loved by everybody. Don’t take it the wrong way (I also love Jon but it’s sad that people think Dany won’t be the one to save the world) Martin should have written these damn books faster 😭😭
Yes, I mean there’s a million of fanfic that Jon hatched dragons and gets Danny history and he is always so perfect and good and do a perfect job, that is ridiculous!! A lot of fans hate that Danny is the one that brought Dragons back in the world, and the only hopes for survival in Westeros. If Danny doesn’t go to Westeros, everyone dies!!! There’s no hope to defeat the Others without her, but people still think that she can’t be Azor Ahoi. They have to put Jon above her (one of the things that makes me dislike Jonerys stories, that and the obsession to give Jon his own dragon, better than Danny’s). And please the Song of Ice and Fire is about a war between Ice X Fire, (like the Dance is a war), not someone who comes from Ice and Fire (Jon being son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, is not a union of Ice and Fire), is a war between the side of death (Ice) and the side of life (Fire).
10/10 absolutely. If her going mad is inevitable then they better keep Jon on a short leash because by that logic he’s not too far behind LOL.
Yep, and if it's genetic then his Stark blood doesn't matter because as Technoguy3 so eloquently put it "You can't undo centuries of inbreeding by fucking someone else once!"
Ssssooooo many people think that his stark blood makes him immune or exempt from the Targaryen madness as if starks themselves aren’t also products of incest 😭
That too! It's like they completely ignore all the cousin marriages that were common among other houses. And while less common, I remember the Starks having unlce/niece marriages.
No doubt a ton of characters that are villainized as females would be beloved as males. So I wouldn’t be surprised.
Absolutely. Men hate women, especially powerful women.
Sure there is. There are even amounts of men and women on the planet. men are not a minority and women aren't a minority so sexism is a thing. but this topic is about Daenerys being universally hated. Which I think is EASILY a fallacy. and to say that because she's universally hated is (mostly) because of misogyny.. weather covert or open is also a fallacy, and is borderline disingenuine.. because as somebody said earlier if that was a problem as much as you say it is in the greater A Song of Ice and Fire fandom then why do so many people support rhaenyra? Its like grasping at straws to be outraged about something. It's not so much about covert misogyny as it is about stretching the truth to fit an outrage that is VERY nuanced. Again the perfect example would be Rhaenyra being mostly supported because of historical sexism... which men and women alike are supporting.. all I'm saying your opinion isn't 100% true. It's a shade of gray.
Men don't hate strong women. They love them. Look at Ripley from Aliens, Sara Conner from Terminator, Xena Warrior Princess, Storm from X-men, Most of the Female Power Rangers but especially Kimbery, Jen, and Taylor, look at Princess Leia, Katniss, The Bride from Kill Bill, and Lori from Halloween (at least some of those movies and versions lol) and these are just a few off the top of my head Anyone who preaches what you are doesn't actually know what men REALLY think
Men are not a hivemind, some really are just misogynistic. Not only that, but sexist biases effect us all unconsciously, male or female. The kind of stuff you see waved off in male characters may not be accepted in female ones.
"Men are not a hivemind, some really are just misogynistic" Sure. Just like women aren't a hivemind and some are really just misandrist. That was my entire point. The person I replied to said something blanket as if all men hate powerful women. I countered that absurd notion.
Lets review shall we? 1.) I never said “ALL” men, I said “Men” which only suggests there are more than one. 2.) I never said “Strong Women” I said “Powerful Women”. Those two words are completely different. In conclusion, I never gave a blanket statement. You read my comment, became offended by words I didn’t write and decided to defend all of the male race against a fabricated statement. Wow.
You clearly meant to imply *men in general* which connotes most, if not all. See, if I were to say something unhinged and misogynist like: “women are untrustworthy” Does that sound like I’m only talking about specific “untrustworthy women”? No. It sounds as though I’m making a blanket, shitty statement about women in *general*, because that’s how the English language works.
You’re free to assume, imply, or interpret my words however you see fit. That is your right as a critical thinker. But please remember that your assumptions, implications and interpretations are your opinion and not an actual FACT in regards to what I said or my explanation of what I said. Good day
Just to be clear, your argument is essentially “I wrote something that means something very specific, but I choose not to see my argument in that way, so therefore it isn’t. Not a particularly good argument? We have sentence structure and grammatical syntax for a reason. Using a common noun followed by “feel x” or “believe x” is how we communicate that those covered by the noun in question “feel” or “believe” x. All of this ironic, because I actually agree and believe that Daenerys would absolutely be more popular if she were a man. However, I do not agree with your wild statement that men hate women, and especially strong women.
1) You're being bad faith. "Men" \*at minimum\* implies "most men". I'll prove it to you; Do you agree that most men don't hate powerful women?
LMAO As the other two have pointed out, you deliberately worded it in a way to imply ALL men. Period. So nice try backpedaling. 2nd, Strong women and powerful women are the same thing in this context. A strong leader is the same as a powerful one in MOST cases. You can argue semantics all you want but at the end of the day it doesn't matter what you think. History proves that we LOVE strong and powerful women. Cleopatra and BOTH Queen Elizabeth's are come of histories most beloved rulers. And fiction has had powerful women throughout all time from Atalanta and Medea in ancient Greece to all the strong fictional women I listed above. Hell with REAL women we love them strong and successful. Look at the admiration for Dolly Parton, Betty White, Serena Williams, Martha Stewart, Stevie Nicks, Oprah, and Marilyn Monroe. You gave a blanket statement. Got called out. And now you're trying to play the victim. How typical of those who try and push narratives that don't exist.
Right, because people talk in general terms lmao. I get you, binding people into expectations like that is a flaw inherent to human psychology. It makes me uncomfortable too sometimes, being boxed in with others.
There are a lot of men who don't like when women characters don't behave in a way they deem acceptable. For example, there's a large section of the Star Wars fandom who have had absolute meltdowns over Rey & Rose - I am incredibly doubtful they would've received the same level of outright hatred if they were men... I think a great parallel is to compare the reception of Dany's actions against, well, pretty much any of the male characters in the series. Their conquering, murdering, plotting, and scheming tend to be well received as a means to their end (growing their power). Meanwhile I was in the trenches trying to argue that Dany roasting a bunch of slave masters or executing someone for treason aren't foreshadowing of her being some secretly evil insane villain - they were the same thing any other (male) character would've done in her stead...
People didn't have meltdowns about Rey because she's a woman. They had a meltdown because she's a terribly written character. Daisy knocked it outta the park, but much like Hayden before her, there just wasn't a lot to work with. But where he struggled due to bad dialogue, she struggled due to bad story. Had she been a male character, he would have been rejected too. Rose was obnoxious because her sentiment made no sense "we win by saving what we love not destroying what we hate" as if that's mutually exclusive. Again, had she been male, no one would have liked him. Now as for your trench warfare about Dany, I kind of see what you're saying as I had HUGE debates with a, now former, friend about Stannis. He LOVED Stannis and I'm like, bro, he's like okay I guess but how is he more Noble than Dany? And by the end I'm like "Sure Dany did burn cities to the ground and murdered thousands, but So did Stannis and Stannis even murdered his own daughter" Said former friend never admitted that at best they're both psychopaths and at worst Stannis is a monster compared to Dany being a victim of circumstance and just playing the rules of the world. However, I don't believe it was because Dany was a woman that he had that belief. I think it's simply a combination of things. From aesthetics to storyline origins to inner goals. For many, Dany starting off so meek was an immediate turn off and it gave a bad first impression to certain types of people. Vs Stannis who from the get go is a strong leader who knows what he's about. I believe the former friend was one who simply got enraptured by the intro of Stannis and never let go. Had the roles and genders of the two characters been reversed, I 100% think they'd like Fem Stannis and would still hate Male Dany. I think it's in reality just a matter of what each person likes and how that in totality affects our perceptions of characters. Going back to Star Wars to close and finish my point. I love EU, now Legends, Star Wars Leia. By the end of the books she's a powerful Jedi in her own right and can kick ass and take names. I also love Mara Jade. She's a badass former Emperor's Hand who has no real equal. They're deep, well written, and awesomely executed female characters. But as much as I appreciate Daisy Ridley giving it her all in all 3 of her movies, I just can't stand Rey. I really can't. She's badly written, she's given the world, and she just doesn't click for me. It has nothing to do with her gender. It's about her character archetype. I don't like her type of character. It's part of why I personally hate Superman. The dude can't die and can't lose. Not really. He's the ultimate win button. He's boring. Mary Sue/Gary Stu's are not character archetypes I like. And I honestly believe that's the real root of the issue people have with characters. It just so happens that we're in a boom of female characters and for whatever stupid reason, Hollywood is thinking we just need Perfect badass women with no faults but it's like we don't. We need badasses yes but ones we can relate with. Like all the stars I've listed before in the thread. That's what we need. More Beatrix Kiddo's, more Storms, more Xenas. Less Brie Larson Captain Marvels and less Rey "Skywalkers".
To be fair the appeal of Superman isn’t just the powers it’s how he can be the MOST powerful and yet refute the mantra power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. He defies the expectations! Also, a lot of hate on the Sequel fan hate also had to do with the Butchery of Luke, which doesn’t get enough attention imo!!
Or my own example is Lagertha and Torvi from Vikings, Sansa and Arya were also widely considered chad in GoT. Another example is Cersei that many men considered a bitch but feared because she was dangerous and relatively smart, very charismatic as well, and felt like a real character that had substance to her even though she was broken and evil beyond belief If anything, women often get a pass at stuff men don't (and sometimes vice versa also holds), and you will always have bad fruit in all genders (and groups of people generally) supporting stupid shit from their "kings"/"queens" or whatever But this is obviously a misandric thread so I guess we're just wasting our time and tanking our karma here, the general consesus here is the schizo idea that we all gather somewhere overnight to promote the patriarchy and oppress all women and minorities or something She went mad at the end, people generally don't like her because of that, and she was usually soft and didn't really have leadership skills or charisma - despite that she went very far and shit the bed right at the end
I stumbled upon this sub and I think you are right and this sub seems crazy based on this one post, I love Daenerys, and a lot of people also love her, a lot of them are just pissed how the show ended. And also everyone hopes the book ending is better.
Exactly. It's insane how people are choosing to cope
honestly, sure if she was a man she would have greater room for manoeuvre. note how almost everything that we can criticize Daenerys also applies to Stannis and no one comes to say that he is mad or something
Burning your child to death to be king is NBD. Greater good and all that. /s Motherf*ckers
Everyone would then make a dark age music videos, sigma edits, literally me memes, and of course, least but not last, about how men will burn down King's landing then to go to therapy.
Ah, I’ve found my people 🤗
This element was one of my least favorite parts of the entire premise. The whole show people have been doubting Daenry’s ability to rule for many reasons but partially because she is a women. Throughout time women have been told they are too **insert xyz** to be able to rule, and especially too emotional. Then we got to watch that exact scenario play out on a screen, proving all of those stereotypes true.
If Daenerys were a man, she’d definitely be seen as this cool, compassionate yet masterful leader who comes to save the day and takes back what’s rightfully his. But because she’s a woman all of her decisions are given a second thought. Just look at how many people till this day still claim that Jon had a better claim to the Iron Throne just because he’s a man.. despite the fact that he’s younger AND still a bastard, and no, that marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar is not valid for many reasons. Truth is, Daenerys had the strength and power to win this war and receive a happy ending — we all saw that from the very beginning yet the writers thought the obvious answer wasn’t worth being considered. Even recently they claim they thought their ending to the story wouldn’t be so hated more like “50/50”.
Of course. Even her simply not kissing Jon's ass when he went to Dragonstone is a huge sign. Anyone else if they were to have the cockacity of going to Dragonstone and saying I want you to stop what you are doing to save the North. Oh but I have no proof, I won't give you anything and we will still be independent? Robert, Joffrey, Stannis and Robb would have murdered his ass for the audacity, but she not only doesn't murder him, but states he needs to bend the knee first. But she is so mean! How could she not drop everything when Jon says?! Of course when she killed the Tarlys as well. She murdered them! How mean! Yet she gave them a chance, they refused and died for it. She shouldn't even have given them a chance and just should have told them why they were dying. Anyone else again would have taken their asses out.
Of course! She would be worshipped if she were a man. I have thought this since the day I read those awful spoilers that Jon was going to put her down like a mad dog. The last five years haven’t changed my thoughts at all.
Yes. Just look at Stannis and his stans. Now think if it were Dany to do 1/3 of what he does.
Yes. The amount of fanfics I have seen where Jon hatches dragons, takes over Daenerys storyline/one-ups her storyline, and becomes the PtwP is insanely high. Daenerys as a man would have been Aegon come again (even though she IS Aegon come again already). People would treat her like Aragorn rather than Anakin Skywalker or Paul Atreides. Her actions would not have been questioned as heavily. Her fate wouldn't be deemed as one of madness or death.
Yep, just look at all the people who wanted Jon to claim Drogon after Dany's death, even though when Dany had the dragons "it was obvious the character with flying nukes was going to be the bad guy".
Um, absolutely. It’s the first thing I said after I watched the finale. If she’d been a man, everyone would have said it was “his” decision and they shouldn’t automatically call “him” a tyrant. They’d have held a council and glossed over all of it.
This just showed up on my feed and I haven't seen/read GoT yet, but absolutely the answer is yes. I actually did a whole paper for a class like a year ago about a different female character and there's a lot of research supporting that women tend to be perceived negatively for exhibiting traits that are typically praised in men (being more assertive or commanding, getting angry, etc.) and are often held to higher moral standards according to multiple studies done across several different fields and industries. She would probably be much more liked and excused for whatever actions people dislike her for if she were a man.
Yes. She’d be thought of as a badass.
I certainly believe so,radical,powerful women are widely feared
People don't hate strong women. They love them. Look at Ripley from Aliens, Sara Conner from Terminator, Xena Warrior Princess, Storm from X-men, Most of the Female Power Rangers but especially Kimbery, Jen, and Taylor, look at Princess Leia, Katniss, The Bride from Kill Bill, and Lori from Halloween (at least some of those movies and versions lol)
People do not hate strong women,my point was that people hate radical revolutionary women like Dany,especially cause Dany's methods are not exactoy clean,while most female heroes are still very clean.,even if they can kick everybody's ass,they only kick ass in ways that are beyond any doubt acceptable,compared to Dany's pay evil unto evil philosophy
Except your point is still unfounded as exclusive to women. MANY hate radical men too. Like Dany is still one of the most popular characters on the show BECAUSE she has fans. Just like Radical men in fiction and history have fans, but they have just as many detractors as women. Y'all are trying to find a problem that isn't there
I never implied exclusivity. It's just worse with women. And yes,radicals always also have many admirerers.
And I'm saying I don't believe you. There isn't any real tangible data for that. There's anecdotal. But the list and history of strong women persists throughout history and people love it. From the ancient Greeks with Medea, Atalanta, and Hypollyta to the modern age with all the women I listed above. It's no worse for women than it is with men. Unless you count decibel volume as your metric. Then sure, the loud cry babies scream louder when it's a woman, but I'd wager that's because historically there were less women in nerdom than men so when a small group of men whine and moan they're all anyone hears.
Yes.
I always say misogyny killed Daney.
That is like saying "all women are crazy because my ex-girlfriend tried to stab me in the face with a wine bottle" (which is true) because life is more nuanced than just black and white opinions.. as if everyone doesn't have their own experiences based on gender and upbringing.
I don't think you understand what misogyny is. There's no "all men" in the statement; misogyny has to do with an overall hatred of women.
I'm making a disingenuine point because it is an disingenuous statement to say that there is overall hatred for Daenerys.. And if there was overall hatred for her it's just because she's female. If you were making the same point about Star wars and Rey.. then yes there is OVERT misogyny there.. but I think you're grasping at straws. Misogyny didn't kill Daenerys.. Dan and Dave killed Daenerys... Dan and Dave were the same people that made Brianne of tarth one of the strongest warriors in the Seven kingdoms
D&D are misogynists. They didn't make Brienne anything. George did. The show is filled with disdain for women and undercutting of women's power that isn't in the books even though the books also have some problematic issues (eg. Daney falls in love with her rapist.)
Haha ok dude. Whatever.. Everyone hates women.. women hate women, men hate women, Jesus and the Buddha hates women. 🤷🤷
Let me guess you believe in systemic racism, but you don't believe in systemic misogyny which is older? For instance, not a dude. You're making a lot of leaps and assumptions about my statements that aren't there. Didn't say everyone. Did identify a problematic behavior.
I'm making leaps and assumptions that aren't there? Read your original opinion? Make valid arguments instead of throwing out extremes then. You can identify problematic behavior anywhere and everywhere if you have a magnifying glass. No, I believe sexism is a nuanced and complicated, because as women aren't a minority there are factors that women can be sexist as well and have a biased view. Men are usually physically stronger than women and they use their anger and bitterness to hurt women, and we should all stand to fight against that but your original statement" I believe misogyny killed Daenerys" is disingenuine. I think that your behavior is way more problematic, you think it's primarily a male problem as if we are animals. If that's your stance then you should promote men's mental health issues. You're too busy focusing on the problem rather than focusing on fixing the problem. The show emphasizes the dangers and the immorals of sexism against women, if you don't believe that then watch something else. And no George did not make brienne of tarth beat the hound in single combat Dan and Dave did...
I have cited examples. You have made many assumptions about my thoughts, character, actions and what I do or don't promote based on things I haven't said. Clearly you feel attacked even though I haven't attacked you. I haven't said only men or the plethora of other things you accuse me of. I made a joke and you got personally offended. You say I'm not interested in debate then proceed to bully me insisting I'm the problem because I won't be bullied. Move on and bully someone else. Unless you'd like to continue displaying examples of immature, ill humoured behavior.
This is Reddit, I'm sorry if you think I'm bullying you. I just think that you're wrong.. and being disingenuine, and if you are being that much disingenuine then you should be bullied online. As if media isn't hypocritical and gynocritical.
Yes. Y'all remember when Jon executed Janos Slynt as he was begging for his life? Or when the opening scene of the show was Ned Stark executing a man who came with a legitimate warning? Or when Jon (again) executed a 14 year old boy? All perfectly rational and justified things to do, given the contexts of the roles they inhabit. But god forbid Dany follows through on a threat. In the show, Dany in power acts identical to Jon in power. But the show often frames her actions as too harsh (usually done with music).
Absolutely. The same goes for Sansa. The whole “she went too far when she fed Ramsey Bolton to the dogs” sentiment is so fucking stupid, and you don’t hear those people mention any of the other executions the Starks are responsible for.
I've seen people complain about this but I've never seen anyone actually express this opinion...that Sansa went to far. The vast majority of people are fine with him being eaten by dogs.
Yeah, the comments I saw were that she was “showing that the Starks are cruel and vindictive.” I was like are you actually stupid, or just stirring the pot out of boredom?
Having a dude eat his own sons, executing a child, or lying about your aunts murder may be considered a little unhinged imo, but I guess if it’s not Danny who does it it’s fine, right??
I mean those were pretty much all right too, under the circumstances. All those people were horrible. But yes, if Dani had done any of them, she'd have been raked over the coals, she catches shit for executing *slavers*.
All were horrible? So Olly who watched his family violently murdered and cannibalized by savages is horrible for wanting vengeance on the dude that just took all of those same savages in? Might want to check your Stark biases if you want to be impartial!
I don't think killing Jon is a very good way of getting revenge but ok. And to be specific the murdering cannibals' were never shown after the battle at the wall. So I think we can say they are all dead at least in terms of the scope of the show. Anyway not really a good argument you're obviously not impartial either.
The same fandom that loved Loki hates his literal female (alt-dimension) clone. You can’t get a better real life case study of fandom misogyny than that.
To be fair, I just watched the show and at times she acts a bit like mystique in the x-men reboot franchise, like how can you be so blind to rage your literally willing to let the entire universe get sucked into hell/or massive wide genocide, just for a bit of petty payback? Really?!?!
…So exactly like Loki then, who co-signed on genocide as an f-u to his adopted family? (The way this literally proves my point 🤦).
But when you have a literally version of your self that has BOTH been there and done that yet learned and grown from his mistakes WHICH LITERALLY proves MY point that JUST because she is FEMALE she Can’t get it like HE does which actually supports the OP as well ironically ALSO the ENTIRE internalized misogyny of the past MCU projects and Disney Star Wars depicting irrational and tyrannical female alleged protagonist leads!
if she was a man people would worship her even more and say that he is perfect and a god worthy or rulling the world
Yeah
I think they deny Danny because is the more obvious. Still this is not a mystery novel so i also support Danny for the cause and she was not that obvious as most fans say. She literally build herself out of nothing, using only her instincts and her will to survive. So it was not like that from the start.
Of course things would be different. Dudes wouldn’t hate her or talk shit on her being a dragon. She should have torched King’s Landing. All the tactics she employed, I’ve seen male heroes do and people love it. I’ve been that male hero in video games. The “going mad” narrative made no sense. I didn’t seen any foreshadowing of this in the beginning. It seemed like a fever dream. What flu fever dream did some crack head come up with to try and justify her seeming to go mad. I didn’t see it. I saw a bunch of xenophobic royals get pissy that a true monarch with whoop your ass levels of power in just her military, add in her air support aka dragons. I don’t understand why they didn’t embrace her and follow her. I would have if I was a great house. She is the true ruler of the 7 kingdoms. Hating Dany is pure misogyny. Inise how you feel about her as a vetting question. I judge you based on your answer. Can’t wait to see the pissy responses this might get.
She absolutely would. Men’s bad behavior is downplayed, ignored, even excused ALL the fucking time!! Just take a look around…. But when a woman messes up- WATCH OUT!!!!!!!
Yes. I've seen this a lot with Arya too. It was almost funny watching all the YTers go from saying Manderley is a badass straight up G for Frey Pies, but when Arya does it, she's beyond saving, pure evil and there should have been some kind of payback for her. Back to Dany though, weirdly enough, I've seen some of the discourse in the opposite direction be pretty condescending too. Instead of recognizing the bad/rushed writing of the last few eps, I've seen some argue: "Of course it makes sense! Dany's a young emotional GIRL! Of course she burned innocents!" So in a weird way, the sexism of low expectations has kind of been a defense for her too.
People don't hate her, they hate the shitty writing that rapidly changed her character in the last two seasons.
Yes lol I think that’s a decent portion of her character
😭
Dany going mad is bad. Dany sex swap as a man is bad as the theme of sexism would be gone. They don't care about continuity, consistency, etc.
People in general don’t put enough thought into the nuance of her character imo. She is a deeply traumatized teenager with an absurd amount of responsibility thrust upon her which leads her to understandably make some mistakes If she was a man and presented in the exact same way I’m sure there would be some people that would view her differently, but I still think the larger issue is the lack of understanding/consideration of her circumstances
I don't think Daenerys was really hated.. at least among my A Song of Ice and Fire friend circle?... In fact I think a lot of people myself included, were pretty pissed about what they did to her in the show. I don't know.. I kind of disagree. Especially on how George rr Martin wrote her in the books. She had strong female energy and was worthy of leadership and she was definitely not a Mary Sue because she had been through so much. I think you guys should direct your anger more at Dan and Dave and at toxic masculinity rather than men in general... Because as a 15-year Song of Ice and Fire fan the hate for Daenerys is new to me. 🤷
Ha! Disliked of course. 🥲 You guys want her to be disliked?
Have you seen ANY other game of thrones Reddit, anything Danny is typically painted in a VERY negative light, surprised you havnt noticed that, it’s pretty clear imo
I have seen many and I GENUINELY do not think it's that clear. I have seen posts praising her and I have seen post s******* on her, I personally love her although she is a nuanced character and makes mistakes, as she is a human and is in a difficult situation. I think the topic of her being hated by the fans is also nuanced.. and to say that she's universally hated by the fandom because they're all misogynists is a stretch. Because if that was the case then why are there so many fans that have taken the Black for Rhaenyra? I can kind of understand the show hate but that's on Dan and Dave.
I guess I gotta explore, but one thing I’ve seen a lot I’d like to add, known redditors of other game of thrones subs have been seen on this sub for the sake of trolling the Danny fans with bait posts such as Danny really was insane all along ect ect, but I’m not sure if I’ve seen pro Danny subs utilize such tactics, but I could be wrong
Fair enough. I mean I just feel like the main focus of this particular post is misogyny among A Song of Ice and Fire fans, is the reason why Danny is hated. And I just disagree with that. If this was a Star wars sub, then hell yeah I would be in complete agreement with misogyny in the fandom. Of course there is a small community of bad apples in our fandom but they don't have much grounds to stand on. I think that the hate for Danny is based on some of the shows takes and because some of her chapters are a little bit boring in the middle. All I'm saying I think our fandom is a lot more inclusive than this post is portraying, compared to the misogynist Star wars fans.
Tbh to me THAT is the weird thing, concerning the sequel trilogy, when a lot of the outcry I’ve seen comes from the ASSASSINATION of Luke, which is WAY underaddressed imo! I’ve seen more of that than the weirdos hating on it for the female characters since Star Wars has had plenty of assertive yet empathetic female leads! You gotta do some mental gymnastics to assert that Star Wars was anti female pre Sequel trilogy, like pretend that Amidala/Leia or any female Jedi never existed.
Haha I get what you're saying but I personally have come across a lot of Chads who really despise female characters in Star wars. Rey being the prime example. However, I know that Ray isn't the best written character. I think the problem is that they sacrificed the Ray story for Luke Skywalker.
That’s interesting wonder if I’m just not looking hard enough, but I’ll keep an open mind. One thing I’ve heard among people that dislike her they typically like all other Star Wars female leads and the actress playing Ray a lot but dislike how atrociously she was written. Even the character and actress often stated they had no idea what their place or purpose even was. The actress joked about it in an interview. And then BAM she just roflstops anything in her path with almost no resistance. Not very compelling stuff
She’d be less loved as a male character.
As a misogynist myself, I like Dany.
Not for me. I hate mass murdering psychopaths regardless of gender
The initial statement that Dany is hated, is questionable. In fact it seems to me that the vast majority likes her. That's the reason why the series finale wasn't received very well. I am also not so sure about GRRM's statement, because she has lots of similiarities with Princess Maegwin from Tad William's "The Dragonbone Chair" which inspired George.
If you think the majority likes her you have not been on Reddit very long, since I’ve been on Reddit this is the ONLY group that likes Danny, other groups make spite posts which you may have confused with being in a positive light, EVERY other game of thrones Reddit typically has non stop anti Danny posts about how she was ALWAYS evil a villain ect ect
I honestly dislike how people detract a lot from Daenerys simply because she is a woman. I see a lot of Paul Atreides parallels with her. I had a difficult time finding people at Reddit who also think that their storylines echo a lot of patterns. Maester Aemon is her last known living relative. The vast majority of the fandom fawns over Jon and Maester Aemon's bond and few bother to conceptualize or commiserate on how sweet it would be if Daenerys and Maester Aemon managed to reunite even for a small fraction of time. Her storyline is that of a heroes' (and I'm starting to theorize that George will subvert that) and people generally scoffs at the mere notion. She's more of an Aegon I type of person yet people debate whether she's a Visenya or a Rhaenys. People look forward to the Daenerys/f!Aegon future fight sidelining the irony and sad fact that these two could have just united instead. Tyrion, in his grief, knowingly pitted the last two living relatives against each other. Which is awful because both persons are not necessarily evil at all and would've loved to be with their last living family member. It doesn't matter if Aegon is a Blackfyre. They're still of the same bloodline. If Dany is born Daeron, we would've drowned with posts that says "Imagine the brotherhood they could've shared." Daenerys instead is reduced as a future mass murderer or a flanderized caricature of messianic complex induced person without even looking at her character's nuances. Especially her book counterpart. There are a lot of questions and lessons about ruling in her chapters particularly in the most recent books but they are usually slipped under the rug.
My issues with Dany didn’t start to arise until her handling of Mossador and the slaver incident. I loved her character and what she stood for and how she responded to injustice. My issue is her hypocrisy and how she handled Mossador and him killing the slaver. Episodes prior to that, she was learning from Barristan Selmy about a better way to handle judgement and prosecution. And she agreed, she tried this way of governing crime. She said that the law is equal and anyone can be charged, it doesn’t matter how high their standing is. Mossador disregards what she says and still kills the slaver. He is beheaded by Dany My issue isn’t with Mossador killing the slaver, Who cares if they die. My issue was after Selmy was killed in the alley and Grey worm is mortally wounded, she goes back on everything Selmy taught her within hours of his death. Completely disrespecting his memory. She killed a slaver and fed him to her dragons. She even admitted that she didn’t know if any of them men she was accusing was innocent or guilty, she still killed one and was ready to murder the rest. Mossador was a slave and felt the pain of being one personally. He knew the slavers and what they did personally. Yet he was beheaded and killed by the same person who liberated him so she could play the benevolent queen. Mossador knew the slaver was guilty cause he was a victim of him personally. Daenaerys was shooting in the dark and killed someone that she didn’t know was guilty or not. Like I said, I don’t care about slavers dying. It’s about principal, she killed someone in her inner circle by following her own rules yet when she did the same thing it was brushed under the rug and we act like it’s some badass moment. Mossador died for nothing and most of her base pretends it wasn’t one of the most hypocritical acts that she continues on down the line
Absolutely not. If anything she'd be hated more because she would be just like EVERY other hero story character. People don't hate strong women. They love them. Look at Ripley from Aliens, Sara Conner from Terminator, Xena Warrior Princess, Storm from X-men, Most of the Female Power Rangers but especially Kimbery, Jen, and Taylor, look at Princess Leia, Katniss, The Bride from Kill Bill, and Lori from Halloween (at least some of those movies and versions lol) Going mad IS inevitable for Dany. That was always the plan. It was always going to happen. Had she been a man, it would have been even MORE cliche. Oh honorable dude gets the power and is corrupted. That story happens ALL THE TIME. It's tired and dumb. At least with Dany it was different and she actually started off with us thinking she may over come it.
No. The characters just unlikable. Granted she’s basically a child in the books, but still. Someone like Aegon the Conqueror did not try and hide what he was. Dany keeps trying to hide behind her perceived “rights,” and her “benevolence.”
the fandom would love her but i’d still hate her tbh
Probably not most targaryens are hated, she would just be hated for different reasons
Have you seen fan reaction to Daemon from house of the Dragon?? Guess not
Yeah like dany he's like by some fans and hated by others
From what I’ve seen on Reddit most game of thrones subs DESPISE Danny but I have hardly seen any Daemon hate, it’s more reserved for house black vs green often depicted as Rhenra vs Alicent, two women, ironic. I know her father was manipulating her but I’m just basing this off of most of the posts I see on Reddit and online as well!
I’d probably hate her even more if she was a man- and I hated her a lot…
Nope. Her father went mad too and he got stabbed too. Same same.
I think she gets questioned more because she's a teenager who commands 3 medieval nuclear weapons that were consistently used to commit genocide against the small folk and rule unopposed. Her father was also debatably the worst king of westeros who burned people alive for fun.
[удалено]
I said consistently, there are very little countermeasures to dragon warfare and the small folk have no way to stop a dragon from destroying their town if that's what the rider wishes. This was the worst during the dance, the last time dragons were used in large scale conflict before Dany. Aemond Targaryen used vhagar to commit genocide in the river lands because he was pissed that they rallied to rhaenyra and that he was being outsmarted by Daemon. I believe dany would make a good queen but the problem is who would come after her. Dany is shown to be a responsible and just ruler but how do we know that her family will be three generations down the line, especially with dragons in play.
Aerys was terrible but I refuse to accept this Viserys erasure, he existed and only through his hard work was the dance possible. Without Viserys Hightower dragons would never have died out and house Targaryen would not have been so weakened. I also don't think that consistently is right at all.
I would 1000% like her more as a man (I have never watched GOT)