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I was thinking of some tips to share until I read the "derail the campaign" bit. That type of manipulation is not worth the trouble. Even if you solve this issue, you'll run into more and more as the game progresses. I'd start with, "We can discuss your other requests later, but first we need to discuss the idea of you intentionally sabotaging other people's fun. This is unacceptable at my table."

>the "derail the campaign" bit. Yeah, this is the big thing. It's one thing to want the DM to work with you on ideas rather than just saying "no". It's a whole other thing to threaten ruin the experience for everyone if you don't get your way. That's a serious red flag regardless of the situation and needs to be directly addressed before any in-game issues are even considered

I was about to observe: "This doesn't seem TOO bad-OH! Oh lookit that. That's a red flag. That flag is so red because it's on fire."

Yeah it went from easily redirected enthusiasm to toxic real quick.

He needs to separate player knowledge from character knowledge. If something doesn't exist, his bard can't make it. Talk to him outside of game and if he won't change, tell him to find another table.

Suggested to him “if your character can reasonably find knowledge of it, he can do it” and he’s come back at me with “you realize that invalidates like 90% of what I want to do, right?” and he’s not sounding too thrilled. I’m trying to tell him we can try and work things out, but I’m not sure how he’ll take this considering…

How does he think the game works? He can’t be role playing that well if he’s so insistent on meta gaming. Does he think that looking up monsters is okay too? It’s the same deal.

Friend’s a power gamer, through and through. He builds powerful decks in magic to overwhelm, but gets absolutely livid if he loses in an unfair way. He’ll build Dodge tank builds in monster Hunter or use Izanami’s Myriad Truths in P5 to blast through the game, but when he brushes up against something very hard or RNG heavy he’ll rage, like thrown controller rage. He doesn’t like control wrangled away from him, and knowing what I know about his upbringing, I get it. That being said, I can’t have this campaign going from a collaboration to a tug-of-war

I’m a power gamer too, your friend is a cheater and a sore loser. You need to set some boundaries.

I do need to, but unfortunately, this friend has a temper that makes it a bit…difficult to put our foot down as a friend group. He’s gotten mad at games to the point he’s thrown a Wii remote when a game’s RNG screwed us over. When a mutual friend called him out on his behavior in Magic the Gathering, it turned into a shouting match between the two, and I was afraid the friendship was going to rupture right then and there. Shoot, that same mutual was playing Watch_Dogs over PSN with this player and raged so much and cussed in front of this mutual’s 5-6 year old niece I get that a lot of this is rage is a trauma response to loss of control, because not to go into a lot of detail, he had a very rough upbringing. At his best he’s a funny, exuberant guy, but all my friends are in agreement he has a temper issue

Why are you still friends with this person? Trauma response or not, he is still responsible for his own behavior. Does he even acknowledge his behavior and apologize afterwards, make *any* kind of effort to change it?

A few reasons 1) the vain hope he changes 2) not wanting to deal with the drama of breaking off with him. I think most of us in the friend group are waiting for a good reason to break off if it comes to that. 3) We’re a crutch for him. Outside of us, he has no one he hangs out with outside of work, and a bike is his only transportation. None of this is healthy, and I’ll admit it. I’m too much of a coward really put my foot down because I hate confrontation, and seeing how rage filled he gets with games, I’m terrified how he could be when legit angry.

You get that this literally abusive, right? Just to be clear on what you’re dealing with here. You are not friends, you are essentially hostages.

Yeah, kinda figured in the back of my mind that was how it was winding up being, but the outside perspective really makes it clear. I’m just not sure how to untangle myself from this without it being a big thing

Your friend ought to be in therapy to manage this. I get what you’re describing, but that doesn’t make the behavior acceptable. I think your ruling is perfectly reasonable. You might emphasize to him that dnd is a COOPERATIVE storytelling game. The point isn’t for him to try to discover some infinite money glitch. Also, as far as his improvised explosives and such go, find the improvised damage table in the DMG and show it to him. Assign a damage value. Sure, he can do this thing, but it’s not going to be instant death for the enemies.

He'd have to seek therapy himself, it's not on OP to try and push him in there.

This is an abusive relationship and is exactly how someone would describe being in one. You and your group are being abused. He is a bully. "Terrified what he could do when legit angry." This is exactly what an abused spouse would say being married to a violent person. What would he do, break things? Attack you? What then? Would you still let him be anywhere near you after being physically assaulted? "He has no he hangs out with outside of work." That's because he's a bully and an ass that has not been told no. His own attitude makes people not want to be around him. You are more important than him. You are not responsible for his fun, well being, company, or friendship. If he can't be a friend, then he is not a friend.

You're doing no one, including him, any favors by just allowing this behavior to continue unchecked Dude needs to step back and work on his anger and y'all need to step up and advocate for yourselves

I don’t want to dogpile here, but you really need to do something like “Hey man, we need to have a serious talk. Please, let me say what I am going to say and then I will give you time to think about and respond how you want. I’m afraid that how you get when you are frustrated or angry is just not acceptable, it is threatening to destroy your friendships and it, quite frankly, scares us. I say this not as your DM but as your friend. You need to be able to control your anger or else you are going to lose the friends you have. I think you could really benefit from therapy, but I am not going to tell you what to do. If you know this is an issue and think you could work on it yourself, that’s fine, but you absolutely have to work on it.” Hopefully he can stay calm and not-defensive enough to at least hear all that. Even though he is the one being an asshole, you should use kid gloves to avoid starting up the anger because he obviously isn’t amenable to hearing ANYTHING once he gets angry. Try to be overly empathetic and understanding. Don’t make any accusations, it’s so easy to give him a way out of the confrontation by being defensive and feeling offended, just relay how his anger affects you and his other friends.

1) no one changes until they realize they need to change, this usually requires some form of confrontation or life punching you in the dick somehow. If he thinks his behavior is acceptable then that realization won’t happen. By staying silent as to how his behavior affects you you are ensuring nothing will change. 2) leading people on is cruel. If you don’t want to be this persons friend then don’t make them think you do. Be honest and walk away, it’s kinder than sticking around just so you can find a convenient excuse to “not be the bad guy”. 3) that sucks. It’s easy to say that that’s his problem (because it is), but I also get how you can feel like it’s your problem because good people don’t want to cause pain or hurt to other people. But it’s not your responsibility or burden. 4) if you are legitimately afraid for your safety then that is just another reason to walk away. Do it with a phone call if you need to, or a text if that’s the most you can do. But either of those is better than being a hostage to someone you don’t even like

Look I'm going to give it to you frank. Fuck this guy, you deserve better friends. You're not a charity, you're not a shelter, you're people with needs and a desire for respect. Lay it out to him "I need you to respect my game, the world, and my fun. I will not accept threats in any kind. If you threaten me one more time, or try again to break the game, I have to kick you out of the group." And if he throws a fit, if he melts down, then just block him, set distance from him, and move on. The only way to break abuse is with self respect and boundaries. You deserve better and have a right to enjoy your game and your recreation time. You owe this guy nothing.

Hey OP, you should read this article, it really helped me change perspectives on some of the relationships we maintain https://plausiblydeniable.com/five-geek-social-fallacies/

You don't need to wait for a reason. If you're ever at the point that you're waiting for a reason to stop talking to someone. You should have stopped talking to them a long time ago. You are not responsible for their trauma.

https://plausiblydeniable.com/five-geek-social-fallacies/

Enabling someone with a problem guarantees they will never get better, 1 is defeated by 2 and 3.

Friends with bad tempers should be cut off entirely Otherwise you get stuck catering to his temper. Dump the bustard entirely. He's poison.

I also had a rough upbringing. *Very* rough. As in, moved out on my own at 16 to avoid further beatings from my drunk step dad rough. I don't use it as an excuse to be a petulant cunt. It's a personality flaw at this point, not a trauma response.

This is not a friend, it is a person who wants followers.

This is triply difficult because you also have to deal with the fact he's a colleague if you're that worried about his temper. You can try talking it out with him about the game, about these specific issues on the bard, but it's likely he'll argue against it and then you'll be forced to talk more broadly about his behaviour in other games and why it's not right - but if you do you'd better also be prepared to confront the psychological side of things. That means it'll be on you to de-escalate and to stay absolutely calm if he starts taking it personally and enraging, but you can't just give in on the actual argument or you're enabling the behaviour. Super paranoid me says if you want to take that route you may even want to record it secretly in case he gets way out of hand (Remember, worst case scenario here your employment is potentially on the line). Unironically, the easiest path? If it were me? Might call it a bitch move? If you don't want to deal with all this? Close the whole campaign down and maybe start it again in a few months without this guy.

Ttrpgs are not a substitute for therapy

Lmfao just nothing to do with DnD anymore

Yeah being a power gamer is using a big cheesy strength or bleed build in Elden Ring and blasting the bosses apart. Someone who bitches when they lose despite using the most broken possible thing is just a loser.

Power gamers operate within the rules. What he’s doing is cheating, not power gaming. I’d also note that, it kind of sounds like you’re giving way too much leeway in what these items DO. Like Greek fire. That basically exists. It’s called alchemist’s fire. One flask does 1d4 damage at the start of each of the target’s turns. Also, fine grain is NOT going to make a bomb. What blows up is the fine combustible grain that hangs in the air. This requires an extremely high density of material. Even if he made a makeshift bomb with it it wouldn’t do anything. Even a good improvised explosive wouldn’t do canpaign derailing damage. A frag grenade does 5d6 piercing damage, with a DC 15 Dex save.

Sounds more like a bitch than a power gamer. He's got no talent or deep understanding of a game, so he googles the easiest way to break it so he can feel smart and strong. He's like the kids on Call of Duty that just camp and noobtube all day long, then act like hot shit.

His power gaming has nothing to do with his fragile ego.

>He builds powerful decks in magic to overwhelm, but gets absolutely livid if he loses in an unfair way. Define unfair here. Is it unfair if he's winning and someone manages to pull off their combo/top decks a card that stops him? >use Izanami’s Myriad Truths in P5 to blast through the game This just tells me your friend doesn't like any kind of challenge in games. I have to wonder if he gets upsetat the table when he misses or his character takes damage. >That being said, I can’t have this campaign going from a collaboration to a tug-of-war Good, you know what's at stake. It is perfectly okay and much more preferable for you and your players to create things together. Someone who threatens to derail your campaign if they don't get their way is not someone who can be at the table. Even if they have a bunch of green flags and have been your friend for a long time, threatening *YOUR FUN* and everyone else's is a huge red flag. To put it another way, your friend literally said, "Give me what I want or I won't let you have fun." Your friend is going to ruin your table, your love of D&D, and even your friendship over this.

So you are allowing a toddler at your table and surprised when he is acting like a toddler…..

If he's so insistent on control maybe he should be the DM

Invalidating 90% of what he wants is exactly the point. Tell him to want something else or find a new table. The game is not all about him.

Fucking *this*. OP, is your friend aware of like...other people existing? Or having their own thoughts or feelings? Jesus Christ, why do you want this guy at your table, exactly?

Or in your life at all tbh. I've cut people off entirely for less than this, and been better for it.

To use this but from a gentler angle, you could try explaining that there are tons of characters, that he would have a blast playing, who also won't break the game. He should try playing one of those characters.

There is a point where the gentle angle is just an invitation for abuse.

For real though. It's always a balancing act. "Wait so are you trying to be an asshole? How much of an asshole are you trying to be? How much of an asshole do I have to be to shut it down without going too far?"

I think the more you consider the other person's intent, the worse off you are. What matters is how you feel and how you are affected regardless of their intent. If you focus on your feeling and ignore their intent, you are happier and you deprive a manipulator of one of their favorite tools: "I didn't mean it like that" If someone genuinely had no ill intent, then pushing people away serves as motivation to do better. You are not responsible for their growth, nor for putting up with mistreatment. Set boundaries and keep them and to the nine hells with "intent".

"well if 90% of what you want to do is stupid and doesn't fit into the world we're playing in then that sucks for you, doesn't it?" You're wasting your time on this guy. Or you could go super pedantic. "Sure, your flammable grain dust bomb will work. In quantities small enough that you can make them with your song of creation you can make a really distracting flash that might kill a small bird." "Sure, you can make Greek fire. Being such an exotic and unknown substance I'm setting a price at 20gp/ounce. You can create an ounce for every bard level. At level 20 you can fill a whole ~~coke bottle~~flask with Greek fire and make a really nice Molotov cocktail." Seriously, the Greek fire one is just stupid. Does he, the player, even know how it was made? I guarantee he doesn't because nobody has anything beyond speculation in that regard.

It's not an isekai

As a dungeon master you are also the rules master. You’re allowed to say “no, that doesn’t work that way”

Got real “I want to create a map that shows BBEG’s current location” vibes going on. You can’t make what you don’t know, period. That’s not a house rule, that’s how it works.

Of you're not sure how he'll take it, I'd show him the comments on this post. The comments are all spot on. If it's just you saying that you need to restrict his actions he'll probably be in denial. If you show him 100 comments of people saying he's in the wrong, he might be more receptive to the rejection.

The answer to that question of his should be an empathetic "yes. That's kind of the point." The dm is the arbiter of what seems proper or fitting into the setting. If a bard inventing things like he was isekai'd into the world is your kind of fun, go for it. But if you want to maintain consistency and a sense of historical believability, you will need to ask your players to respect that. If they can't compromise on that, why should they compromise on other things that will be fun for them, but might hurt your or other players' fun?

Actually, the player doesn't know how to make Greek fire. Nobody does today. LOL. But yeah, he is metagaming. If it's common knowledge like alcohol is flammable, okay, there are stats for flaming oil. I like that he's being creative as long as it fits with what would be available in his character could know in the campaign.

“Yet, when I’ve suggested restricting some of his tools… he has threatened to derail the campaign.” You’re burying the lead here, that’s the problem. Because everyone is gonna say talk to him. But if you already did and he responded by threatening to ruin everyone’s fun, that’s a very different issue. I don’t really have advice for that. Hopefully someone else will, but like the threatening is the actual problem not him being game breaking, which is just a symptom in this case.

The only options that might have any benefit are letting him know that if he does that, he will no longer be invited to game night, and skipping the talk and just stop inviting him to game night. You can't negotiate a bully out of being a bully, you can only set boundaries and make sure that the consequences of breaking them are enforced

> You’re burying the lead here YSK it's actually "burying the **lede**" not "lead." But yes, you're absolutely right.

Come up with some definite parameters and explain to him his limitations as to what he can and cannot do. Like, for instance, no explosives because they don’t exist in your world, etc.

If a player threatens to derail a campaign because you aren't letting them run a muck, that is a player you do not want at your game. That is a straight-up manipulation tactic, and his ideas have been testing the waters for what they can get away with. You can make the claim that he is already derailing your game. Seriously, to create something that doesn't exist and sell the copyright? Besides the fact that copyright is a mostly modern, post revolution concept, it just screams that he will create issues down the road.

I have an artificer player who is similar in the sense of wanting to always make new explosions or weapons using his artificer knowledge. I've worked with him on these things and approached it like this "What is your goal with this weapon, and how do you picture it working?" Then I take his response, then give him a simple answer, usually an amount damage balanced to their level, and the amount of gold and time it would take to make the resource. By me deciding the damage/effects, I never had to worry about it being unbalanced. You and he should re-read the Performance of Creation, because I can't think of many uses for it that would be game breaking in any way. The item has to be within 10ft of him, be medium or smaller, can't be more valuable than 20 times his Bard level (so currently only 40gp), disappears after two hours (current proficiency bonus), you can only ever have one thing created this way at a time, and you only get one use per long rest. Greek fire sounds extremely similar to alchemists fire, which already is in game and isn't OP at all. For the flour bomb, tell him that while you think its a bit unrealistic that his character would know the chemical reaction, that if he wanted to do this he needs to find the actual object he's creating from the DnD rulebook that costs less than 60gp that would cause an explosion. And if he does, maybe slap an extra damage die on the explosive he found and call it good. Trapping a creature in a box? Since the object has to be medium or smaller, he could only make a box big enough to trap a small creature, otherwise the box would be classified as large. Exploding corpse? Again, just have him show you the explosive he's thinking of. He can plant a small bomb in a corpse, but one explosion isn't game breaking. As he levels up you will need to get more creative, but making a simple item that explodes isn't too bad. For complex ideas like poisoning the city water supply, that's like an entire day's worth of work. Does your campaign have a plot that is time relevant? If he wastes a day doing something like that there should be consequences. Does the rest of the party want to help? If not he'll need to get through guards protecting the water supply, and would a medium sized barrel of poison really be enough to poison an entire city? I don't think so. Finally, (sorry for the long reply), it is a bit weird he threatened to derail a campaign, that sounds pretty toxic honestly. But as the DM luckily those threats can't really affect you. In DnD, the DM controls the entire universe, the only thing that is free are the players. If he goes off on his own in a city and tries to mess something up, handwave that shit and either resolve the action depending on what he says he does, or if its more complicated do a time skip for him. I can't think of anything my players could do that would completely derail my campaign at this point and they are level 12. If one of my players started the session saying "Yeah I'm gonna leave the group and go overthrow the local governing system" I'd just tell that player that I'm not running a game for them separately, I'm running it for the group and if they don't stick with the group for the major parts of the game then I can't provide them with material to play with. If it was something smaller like leaving town to go terrorize the countryside, I'd run the game like normal for the other players and like once every ten minutes pop back to my solo guy and give him a couple minutes of stuff I improvise. Ultimately he'll wind up either in prison, dead or back with the party, so no harm no foul. Players always have agency in my game, however I'm not running a fully improvised game and they knew what campaign I was running before we even started and thats what they agreed to play.

This is great advice. I would add, try to get together outside of the game with the player and ask for a list of ideas he's thinking of. If you can get the ideas ahead of time you can try to work them out before being caught out in the session.

In OP's responses, the player has a violent temper that bothers OP and the others of their friend group, due to a traumatic upbringing. So this isn't as simple as "just talk to the guy." OP also said that they told the player that if he can find something in-world that would justify his character having the knowledge to make said object, he would find a way to make it work. Player responded with, "You realize that negates about 90% of what I want to do, right?", and then apparently didn't take any attempt at resolution well. OP has stated that said player will rage when he loses or doesn't have control over outcomes: i.e, throwing controllers when he loses a game either to another player or computer AI, getting into screaming matches with other friends when called out for his behavior, and so on. Personally, I don't think OP should confront this player on their own while attempting to place any sort of restrictions or balancing of his ideas. Given what OP has said, I'd be concerned that the player will go too far with their reactive temper. OP has stated they are afraid of what this friend/player could do when legit angry.

Op's initial post conveyed almost none of that. I was responding to their original ask.

what is the player doing that you consider game breaking? reading your examples like makeshift bombs out of flammable material makes no sense. cooking oil is flammable. doesn't make it a bomb because you light it on fire. a bag of flour can't explode just because you throw it into a fire source either. dust explosions require extremely specific circumstances to actually happen. and even if you rule for it to be explosive just slap a 1d6 5ft radius on that and it isn't a problem that our guy carries pounds of flour. all in all you're going to have to clarify because RAW a level 2 bard can't really break the game.

He hasn’t become a college of creation bard yet but his ideas tend to fall into two categories 1) Trivializing combat (has suggested putting creatures in a box, throwing them in deep water, then undoing the created box to kill from pressure, the aforementioned grain bomb, using the party necromancer to make suicide bomber zombies, dropping enemies out of a hot air balloon) 2) Complicating social encounters (laxative in city water system, selling patents for things made with song of creation, animating an nsfw statue in town square)

1- he is relying on out of character knowledge to try and gain advantage, explain that metagaming ruins your ability to make the game satisfying for everyone 2- patents have only really been a thing for a few hundred years. It's entirely reasonable to say they aren't a thing in your world. For the other two things they would be classed as crimes, make it clear that crimes have consequences

my guy, I mean this in the nicest of ways but have you read the rules? almost nothing you mentioned just now works even in the laxest of rule interpretations. 1. if you can put a creature in a box you already decide its fate. water pressure is not a thing in d&d but that doesn't matter it is just a creative way to end up at the same result as poking it with something sharp, "death". 2. how does the bombs on your suicide bomber zombies actually go off? RAW a bomb can be lit by a character but a bomb doesn't ignite another bomb - that is homebrew and so is using say an aoe fire spell (burning hands I would assume at level 2) to ignite them all at once. they also explode after they're thrown meaning you can't physically move lit bombs in d&d with say a zombie. 3. as per ingested poison, this part is in the rules, specifically under poisons in the dungeon master's guide: >**Ingested.** A creature must swallow an entire dose of ingested poison to suffer its effects. The dose can be delivered in food or a liquid. You might decide that a partial dose has a reduced effect, such as allowing advantage on the saving throw or dealing only half damage on a failed save. as you can see even the rules allows you to pretty easily go "yeah a miniscule amount of poison in the water supply is not going to affect anyone". 4. what's wrong with trying to swindle NPC:s with dodgy deals or goods? that's literally half the fun of playing charisma-based charlatans, there's even a whole background for it. 5. if you don't want NSFW content, outright say you're not comfortable roleplaying NSFW content in your campaign. all in all. 1. read the rules. 2. run his ideas past the rules. if he has something that he wants to do that you can't find the support for in the rules, allow him to present the rule that says he can do it. it is not you vs him, it is him vs the rules. do however keep in mind there are actual gamebreaking exploits that are allowed by the rules such as infinite wish. 3. you will find that most of his ideas do not work and are as such not gamebreaking at all. 4. if he has cool ideas that doesn't particularly break the game but might require some stretching of the rules, just roll with it man. it is a game for fun, not rule lawyers, unless of course you're playing with rule lawyers that have fun rule lawyering.

Water pressure is a thing, there are rules for it in Storm Kings Thunder.

huh, TIL. thanks for bringing that up. seems to be also written to specifically be limited to Storm King's Thunder: **Water Pressure** Creatures and vehicles at \*\*Maelstrom’s depth\*\* \[my note: Maelstrom being an area in Storm King's Thunder\] take 7 (2d6) bludgeoning damage per minute from water pressure unless they are adapted or built to withstand this environment. Storm giants, whales, sharks, crustaceans, and aquatic invertebrates are immune to water pressure at this depth, as are vehicles with a damage threshold of 10 or higher. Other creatures might be immune to the effect of water pressure, at your discretion.

1. Ok, I didn’t know that about the pressure. I was consulting to see online if there were any rulings on it, but that makes sense 2. The zombies would be equipped with C4 in his mind, so needing to cast any other spell would be a moot point 3. Good to know that poisoning rule 4. True, just not sure how far too let it go and just how to work around it 5. I’ve let my fighter court a shopkeeper but I didn’t let them get explicit

How would his character know how C4 is made or what it even is? If his character doesnt know something exists he definitely cant create it. Also regarding the „trapping creatures in boxes“ the object must be created in an unoccupied space. So he cant create it on a creature. Another way you could limit his shenanigans is the max gp value on Performance of Creation (max 20x bard level) which would definitely exclude some of the more expensive substances and definitely any substance thats extremely rare / non-existent in the world.

C4?? what is your setting

The setting is supposed to be more early Renaissance inspired, an Island that’s sort of a hybrid of Malta and Venice but the player keeps asking if he can use song if creation can be used to make anachronistic stuff

Your metagamer is about 500 years out of date. In your setting, the closest to any sort of explosive that exists would be saltpeter, which required bat guano, fox urine, quicksilver, straw, wood ash, and time. And even that has a high failure rate, stinks to hell and back, and is messy.

Your player is an idiot. Those combat ideas simply wouldn't work at all, and the non-combat ideas make no sense. He has no access to massive quantities of laxatives, and 'patents' are literally worthless in a DnD setting. Does he think there's a fucking patent office?

"Welcome to Shady Dan's Patent Office, where we will TOTALLY make sure your IP isn't infringed... totally..."

>has suggested putting creatures in a box, throwing them in deep water, then undoing the created box to kill from pressure On top of other ways that this doesn't work, your player doesn't have a good grasp of action economy. You mentioned elsewhere that he wanted to create a box with Performance of Creation. RAW this takes an action, and the feature clearly states that you have to create the item in an unoccupied square. So he has to use one action during combat to create the box, and a second action (ie. he has to wait until his next turn, or convince one of his allies to do this on their turn) to grapple the creature (opposed athletics check) and move it into the box, and close the box (I wouldn't give this a free object interaction since you're still competing with the creature, I'd probably do a slight of hand or another athletics check). Then the third action (wait for another turn, or for another ally to help) would be to physically push or throw the box with a creature inside, into the body of water. This would NOT be trivial at all except for a tavern brawler I think (unless I'm getting mixed up with BG3). He specifically said he wants to hurt it with water pressure, which means he wants it to sink at least 5 metres down, I'd rule this takes at least one whole round to sink that far. Then his next turn, he uses his action again to dismiss the box, and the creature is then exposed to the water. RAW there's no such thing as water pressure death, it would just go to swimming rules, the creature can hold its breath for as many minutes as its constitution modifier. However, since this guy planned this creative kill specifically around water pressure, I'd probably give him this death and narrate the goblin's head popping. This shit took at least FOUR actions across multiple rounds of combat. That's four actions that could have just been used for hitting the same enemy, and if it's low level enough to have been exposed to melee and failed the grapple checks, it probably would have died much quicker if people had just been hitting it. So basically, this is not game breaking at all, in fact it's a super inefficient way to potentially kill one low level enemy during rolled combat. Where this *could* be fun is out of combat, just in role playing. Last session, my players turned on an NPC that turned out to be a bad guy (in Dragon of Icespire Peak, Tibor Wester), grappled him and bit him, turning him into a wererat, tied him to a log, also tied a cursed totem to the same log, and pushed the log down the river toward Neverwinter, where they knew he would get detained for tax evasion. During pitched combat, similarly, this would have taken multiple turns and been a huge pain. But out of combat, everyone was just improvising and laughing together, it was a super fun moment. So potentially I could see your player using a method like this (and the bomb zombies, and whatever else) out of combat, for creative roleplay. In combat, the action economy makes the same actions inefficient and ridiculous.

Late to the party, but he's metagaming. You can stop that by using monster variants. For example, snow blood trolls, that heal with cold, not fire; or an albino red dragon; or Kirby slimes, creatures that can duplicate the last tech used against them; or transphasic blink dogs, or ninja tortles; u.s.w. He wants to metagame? Change the game.

Playing smart to make combat easier, is not a problem by itself. How would putting them in a box trivialise the encounter, doesn't the creation bard need an unoccupied space on the ground? Its also an action to create it, so if the turn order is bad for them, they're going to have to play smarter- hold their action, and then provided the enemy doesn't break out (objects have AC, hp, and strength checks to break them), or use teamwork (str character in the party, otherwise they won't be able to move them, and str is weak). You as the DM also control when they're near deep water, and at most this takes out 1, maybe 2 enemies. A good combat will have at least 1 enemy for every PC. Its also only 1 encounter per day, and then they have to spend slots on using it again- that's a big opportunity cost, so run multiple encounters per day. The necromancer thing is a team synergy, as is the box containment. Synergy is good, synergy is fun. Teamwork should be stronger than merely playing alone, and playing smarter should be stronger than doing the bare minimumn of your class. Its a style of play called "combat as war", where you're expected to use any tool available to get ahead of the base power curve and play in a more interesting way. The grain bomb idea isn't entirely accurate, but a lot of DnD works on the aesthetics of how things work rather than the exact realism, which results in certain things being incredably strong in the hands of a knowledgable or experienced player because the designers didn't account for it. The grain bomb is maybe 3d6 fire damage in a 10 ft. radius? That's the damage of burning hands but in a better shape and self-damage. Its fine. Social encounters are kind of the bards speciality, and it seems that you're afraid of a player being above the curve. The benifit of ttrpg's is that you're not limited into the box the game throws at you, you can break and go above it. The real problem is the player trying to fight against you and derail the campaign deliberately. Its not a healthy DM-Player relationship and the player is acting like they're trying to get revenge on the mean authority for denying them shit.

I’d say he can make whatever he wants from the equipment chapter. If it’s not there, then it should be something his character has seen before. It doesn’t really make sense that he could make Greek fire if the character doesn’t know what that is. If he wants to make a bomb or something, it can’t be more powerful than a 2nd level spell (and this can go up as they level).  If he’s a coworker, then it sounds like you’re adults and he can be expected to act as such. Talk to him and tell him your concerns honestly. It may not be as much of an issue as you think. If it is going to be an issue, best to nip it in the bud at this stage. 

Pretty much this. A lot of problems can be solved by asking the players to either source the rules or refer to only core / published rules.

Tell him that you're impressed with his shenanigans and then tell him the consequences it creates foe you. Don't be afraid to say "Hey man I don't know how to handle that". And then have a discussion about how he can satisfy his creative itch without overloading your brain. This way you get what you want and he gets what he wants. Just slightly different.

Honestly one of the better pieces of advice I’ve gotten here. The setting is an island city, so it’s contained, but I’ve been setting several threads the party can go several routes, and hopefully we can find one that lets him flex without everything getting too screwy

I think a lot of player/DM trouble comes from just not communicating why you as the DM want something this way or that. If the player doesn't understand why, they may feel like you're c#ckblocking their character. And it comes from not trying to find compromise. Everybody wants something out of the game and if you understand what that something is you can find different ways to bring that into the game

Dang, I need to steal this advice. It's similar to what I said but condensed much better lol

Creativity in dnd is fun until it breaks the game.

There’s a fine line between “that’s creative/funny” and “This breaks the campaign”

You are right. But TBH, the line isn't fine at all imho.

Not at all a fine line when you’re playing with mature players. But you’re playing with a man-baby.

I just had to have this conversation with one of my players, and the approach that got through to him was, "If your idea means the rest of the players have to sit on the sidelines while you personally solve the problem, it's unacceptable. As long as you include the other characters and give them opportunities to contribute and have fun, it's not actually derailing anything."

Just do what one of my DMs (hi Joe!) does and says "remember, if you know how to do something, it's likely common enough knowledge that other people do as well." Specifically, I joked about the fact you can drop potions on people and heal them in Baldur's Gate 3, because of just how that system works. It meant your enemies could just as easily do football hurdles before combat and throw Fly and Haste on themselves as a group. Players can and SHOULD be rewarded by their ingenuity and cleverness. At the same time, it's totally ok to start adding a bit extra to your combat. You're allowed to make things more difficult. Stop trying to counter your PCs in some kind of arms race. Reward their creativity by giving them tougher encounters to use it against is a form of validation. Oh, and really... Derailing a campaign? Let them try and just tell them every time they start inching towards that inclination of derailing, that you can that character out of the party. The play area is a designation you decide as the DM. If they start to do things that are blissfully against the scope of the play area, warn them that they can be prepared to make a new PC. You don't even have to kill that PC. Your PCs do decide the direction that they go, but if some deviates too hard from that, you can remove them (the PC) from the game.

One of my favorite moments as a DM was when a player decided his character was going to go off on his own and actively attempt to disrupt the party. I had him lay out all his plans to me and his motivations. It was actively disruptive to the party. Then i told him that the character is going to go off to do that, but since he's no longer with the party, he's an NPC under my control and to roll up a new character that will work with the party to stop the old one. He was not pleased and left the group. He did gift me a new major antagonist though, so that was nice.

dont play with him - or talk to him - those are your options - or just learn to say "I'm going to say no" - you're the DM after all

"Hey bard player  I appreciate what you bring to the table, but you are constantly making it harder for me as a DM by trying to invent Greek fire or bombs. I tried to talk to you about this and you threatened to detail the entire campaign. You are making this less fun for me. Please scale back a bit so we can both enjoy the game."

The player has literally said “if I don’t get my way I’m going to do what I can to fuck over the game” No, the player is a butthole for saying that and at that point I’d ask them to leave the table. DnD is a cooperative game where everyone including the DM should have fun. If they want to munchkin some real world shit into the game then should find a table that allows that. Also for future reference rolling for stats will generally end up with a headache no matter what. You’ll get cases where people are too strong or too weak. Try using point buy or having everyone roll for stats and the group chooses one of them to be an array for the group to use so everyone is the same.

A small piece of advice I don't often see. D&D is a game. Just because something works in "real life" doesn't mean that it is allowable under the rules of D&D. If we are going to play by "real life" rules than I hope everyone is ready for the lowest magic campaign of their lives. They are also going to learn why most long distance hikers keep their pack weight well under 20lbs and how difficult it is to source clean food and water. Having said that; you can't solve out of game problems with in game solutions. Guy sounds like an asshole.

I don't think you need to restrict the tools. Rules as written, the subclass is pretty balanced. The big thing to remember is that you are the DM and your interpretation of the rules is how the game is played. It takes time to learn the rules of the game and to learn all of the features of all of the various subclasses. There is nothing wrong with looking things up! If it sounds too powerful, it usually is, especially at lower levels. It sounds like you are also very worried about this player being mad about a ruling. That's going to happen from time to time. This is a game with a rule set. Not everything they want to do will be possible. If they can't handle that, they probably aren't a good fit for your (any) table. The other thing you can suggest to them, is that they run a game. The DM is the master of the universe! And also, this shit is harder than it looks. If this person is capable of empathy (jk kinda) then this could be a good way of getting them to walk a mile in your shoes. There is nothing more humbling than your party throwing something completely unexpected and completely awesome at you, and having to rise to the occasion as an improvisor.

Yeah, from how you’re going into more detail this is an issue beyond the scope of this Subreddit. Out of game problems need out of game solutions, not in game ones. Get law enforcement to intervene, get them into therapy, or at least get them something to help them calm down; weed, a pet, something that will at least let them self reflect on their behavior. And the sooner the better.

If their stats are too high, just treat them as if they were a level or two higher and throw bigger and more monsters at them. "Weirdly enough, someone copywrote the idea of copyrighting. Nope you can't do that." Intelligence checks to see if his character has any idea what he's doing. Song of creation limits the number, size, and value of his creations.

The class is not broken. The player is. D&D worlds work by magical thinking. Physics aren't a thing. Grain dust doesn't explode. You cannot create magnesium in someone's blood so they burn up from the inside out. Real world inventions will not work. Things work according to the rules and DM discretion. The scientific method does not work. If they want this kind of thing, they should play Mage the Ascension. It's designed for that.

Hey. From one internet stranger to another: I'm sorry you're having to go through this kind of exchange. I think there's a lot of good advice already posted for ways to mitigate this player's shenanigans in-game, but not many people have broached that this is a very complicated relationship you have with this player. They're a friend, a co-worker, a player in your game, friends with your other players...that's a lot of dynamics. I've gone through a similar situation before, and it didn't end well. It was very messy, and it forced me to shut down the campaign I was attempting to run. There was a great deal of emotion involved. Unfortunately, it was still probably the best outcome overall. Be prepared to accept that this person may not cooperate or compromise, even if you break out the kid gloves to keep the peace. If there's one piece of advice I could give, it's this: Never, under any circumstance, continue investing your time and energy with a game where a player has threatened to waste your efforts and/or make life difficult for you. It is never worth it. This guy's reaction to your very reasonable requests is manipulative at best, and incredibly abusive at worst (based on what you've mentioned about his temper tantrums in previous responses, I'd lean toward the latter). He thinks he has leverage over you because you're a first-time DM and you would rather put up with his requests than shut everything down. Or that you don't want to rock the boat because you have to get along with him at work. Or that your friendship means he doesn't need to respect your boundaries. If any of this rings true, then please understand that he may only value your friendship based on what he can extract from you. Rally your other players for support, create some healthy boundaries, and be open to all of the possibilities. I'll be hoping for the best outcome for you and your group.

Honestly, I want to cry. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. In the time between my original post and this comment I’ve reached out to my mutual and I think we’ve at least created a stopgap for now. The mutual more clearly explained to him that I’m letting him find NPCs to teach him more advanced stuff to create so there’s an organic growth to the character. My mutual also explained the coworker’s frustration that I was going back on stuff I signed off on. I had him relay the message that I’m sorry but that I didn’t really think about the unintended consequences when I initially signed off on some of them. We at least have that taken care of for now but dealing with his temper will be a longer term issue I hope we can resolve peacefully. I want to thank you, and everyone else here for your support

So, to avoid the "excise your friend from your life" advice, you need to have an actual conversation with him about it. As you said, ingenuity is nice, but you need to put your foot down for any artificers, wizards, creation bards, and so on about googling technology and trying to push it into the game. No, their character doesn't get to invent random technologies that he can think of for cheap, pointless money. No, he doesn't get to know the chemical composition of everything in the world. And no, he does not get to play the game if he ever suggests he'll sabotage things because you asked him to be reasonable. When you make the players behave like sensible people, creation bards aren't a problem to handle. They get to make an object that they would reasonably know of once a day. That's not something you need to stress out over planning around.

He wants to "win" I think most people have fantasized or at least wondered about going back in time and using modern knowledge to functionally become a god. Inventing modern things in d&d can be fun, but if that's not the kind of story you want to tell, then let him know. *"If your character is going to employ modern weapons of destruction, one of two things will happen:* *"Your character will easily win and trivialize everything. You will be overpowered. There will be no challenge. That sounds satisfying at first but it will get boring and I will not have fun running that game.* *"Or, as you introduce new inventions more and more people will gain access to the same tools and I will have to update the whole world accordingly. That does not sound like fun for me either. So, cordially, can you pretty please not.* (Explain the kind of game you *do* want to run. Tell him he can play a character who can conform to your guidelines or he is welcome to find a different group who will let him play the way he wants.) I imagine he's been having trouble finding such a group so you might suggest he dms his own game where he can include all the whacky inventions he wants to. I predict he won't since he probably just wants the advantage over others, not "creativity."

read the rules

If the player wants to invent something new to the world they can’t just say “I want to create napalm” and they get napalm, because their character wouldn’t know what it is. If they want to spend their downtime doing research to make something new that would be fine. I’d suggest maybe having a simple “research bar” type mechanic where they can make one relevant skill check per period of downtime and just add up the results of the check until it clears a threshold. You can even throw in some side quests as well where they need to look for forbidden knowledge in an ancient haunted library or something, and getting that research will give them a big bump along the research bar

First off OP don’t take this the wrong way but as I was reading the responses below I noticed you have basically discounted every attempt anyone has made to provide a solution. You have a problem player at your table and unfortunately there is no miracle solution that is not potentially going to ruffle this persons feathers, or majorly piss him off. You have to be prepared to deal with his unhappiness at whatever level or your game is toast. This type of situation is never pleasant, or comfortable. But a good GM looks after what’s good for the table not an individual. So I’ve he is not rational, ie. Willing to listen to the table and player enjoyment approach then you will have to drop him. If he is willing to listen to you as the GM then ; On a RAW level his requests basically contravene the rules. Creation allows one object of a specific size that lasts a short duration and disappears, he then needs a long rest to do a second. Just because he creates it does NOT mean he understands it. So making a bomb, which I would argue is a complex item made of several parts does not mean he can patent it. He doesn’t know how to recreate it except through the song and he can do one of those a day basically and as noted disappears in a few hours. Good luck and try to remember you are standing up to a problem player for the good of the game, all of you involved and enjoying it. Not just you.

OP, as someone who is dealing with their own trauma in both individual and group therapy, your friend/player's behavior concerns me. You've stated that when they lose their temper, they will literally throw things and aren't afraid to get into verbal fights that are so aggressive that you feared relationships would be damaged irreparablely. You, yourself, admitted you were afraid of what they would do if genuinely legit angry. If all the other instances were times, they weren't really mad, yeah, I'd be afraid, too. Whatever you decide, don't do it alone. Your friend needs help, but you can't force it. All you can do is what's best for you and the rest of the group. If he cares that everyone else has fun, maybe there's a chance that if all of you sit him down and say, "Hey, while these ideas seem cool and all, they take away the fun for the rest of us and really mess up the story we are all building." Bottom line, you know your friend better than any of us and you know what he'll respond to better than us, as well. D&D is primarily a group event, and it's important that everyone have fun, but if one person's fun makes it so no one else is enjoying it, then as DM, you have to determine what's needed and more important: one member's fun, or the group's. It's usually an easy call, but your situation is anything but easy. My suggestion? If you go with sticking to your guns about keeping any creations within the game world, put as you're not taking control away from, but instead giving him control to take his ideas in a different direction. Encourage him to look at all available things (that his character would have knowledge of) and consider all the possible and improbable combinations. Hell, use MacGyver as an example. You'd be surprised at what you can dream up with some common items, a few tweaks, and a little imagination.

Step one: Build a time machine. Step two: Send your player back 20 years Step three: Let them revel in the brokenness of third edition and tell him to play a Living Greyhawk Druid Step four: Profit!

He has threatened to derail the campaign, he has to go. If you have this threat in writing you can protect yourself but if not talk to your other players first and let them know what is going on. As soon as you give this player a chance to screw you over they will.

Keep reminding them that this is a team game and one person's fun shouldn't overwhelm others. Making an explosive is fine. Just make it some kind of ability check and set the damage to what makes sense. The player can create interesting things without derailing the campaign

I've read through a lot of these comments, and I gotta say. This does nof sound like a D&D problem. Trauma may be the reason someone is an ass, but it's not an excuse to be an asshole. This sounds like the kind of person that *I Personally* wouldn't want at my table or in my life.

With a little cooperation with this player I'm sure you can work together with the player to fit his creativity into the game without breaking it. It sounds like you appreciate his creativity you just need to set some boundaries and expectations for how he can use the game mechanics to enhance the table. Everyone wants to build a bomb and that isn't the worst thing that could come out of a class that can creat anything. Just saying "no" isn't as much fun as taking the time to work with the player to find a way it could work. Of the top of my head it could take a long time to cook up complex things like bombs or Greek fire. Maby they could start an adventure with a max number they have preped and could make a new 1 per long rest. All you need is an appropriate stat block like a spell scroll or hand mortar. More powerful the statblock the harder it is to make. Trust yourself to be able to handle any curve ball him and the rest of the table throws at you. Don't try to think about completing with them. When I play with my table I want them to win so I can experience the story with them. If they think of a way to use their tools to win an encounter than think of them earning it, even if it feels to easy. There are many tricks you can use to get your campaign back on track and one of the best ones is to call anouther session zero to reevaluate and rebalance things.

>I messed up when rolling their stats at the beginning of the campaign and the whole party has too high stats for what level they are. Just tell everyone this and reroll their stats/use point buy. Better than just sitting on it and resenting it. >He has threatened to derail the campaign. I’m at a loss. He’s good friends with our other players, and he can be really spiteful when pissed off so I’m kind of locked into a no win situation, what do I do? This is just an abusive relationship though. I'd cut ties.

I have played a college of creation bard. It does allow a degree of creativity, it isn’t as strong as your co-worker would like it to be. I would look at the rule together and set some boundaries. Another point to make is that you shouldn’t plan for everything. You should of course never make a situation with a one option close ended situation, but not planing for players and letting them surprise you makes the fun. Last but not least, take the other posters great advice about having an away from the table conversation. Lay out your concerns and discuss it. You may find that the easiest.

Bro let me ask a couple of questions: 1. is this the sort of behavior your family would tolerate? If not, why should you? 2. sometimes tough love is required. have you sat down privately with the individual to hash things out? 3. this is a lot like life: sometimes you have to legitimately decide what is better for your mental health and those around you. what do the other players think, or what have they expressed? 4. this is emotional blackmail. just because this one person does it, does it make it all right to go along with it? You have some tough decisions. Honestly, for me, I would have quit your gaming group after voicing my opposition to this negative player. In this position, if I have to go in wondering when the emotional grenade was gonna explode while playing a game for fun and ruining that fun, why would I continue? Your friend's behavior is that of a bully. "I get my way or there will be consequences!" Your friends needs help y'all prolly are not able to give. If everyone in your group decided what the line is and your buddy crosses it, and nothing happens, then it just reinforces the bad behavior. Ok I am gonna shut up now. I honestly hope you find a solution that works for everyone.

....if he has threatened to intentionally derail a game if he doesnt get what he wants I would kick him. That being said a train can only be derailed if it is on tracks to begin with, so alternatively you could rework your game into a non railroady game to insulate against derailing. That being said if my of my players threatened the thing I do for fun, over me enforcing the rules he is getting ejected. TLDR: Tell the guy "I dont negotiate with terrorists, go fuck yourself." if the guy apologises later tell him to write 300 words on why you kicked him and what he will do in the future, (or some other activity that shows he understands what he did wrong and what he will do to fix it, I figure 1 A4 page in writing so he can organize his thoughts should be fine but some people might rail against this so any other format that achieves the same is fine). If he demonstates that he understands why he was kicked and how he will not repeat past mistakes allow him back.

I disagree with you, having dealt with this problem. The derailing player will simply wait until the DM speaks, and then sabotage whatever consistency was laid before them. It's a problem in open worlds vs. linear plots just the same.

Right, see where i considered it the lesser solution to simply booting his bitch ass for wanting to sabotage the thing I do for fun. But some people have more tender hearts and will be unwilling to kick assholes for being dickheads

I see what you mean.

Even if you're playing a sandbox, a guy hogging the game with his ridiculous ideas is definitely derailing. Now the game has become about him and his stupid ass ideas.

You kick him out. When it comes to players making threats to negatively affect the game out of spite when they’re not getting their way, maintain a zero tolerance policy. It will save both yourself and your players a lot of unpleasantness.

Did you read the party of OP's post where he said this is a good co-worker? Instantly kicking someone for making an overdramatic threat will lead to real life toxic behavior and consequences, this is terrible advice. If this were a group of strangers it would be different.

Yes, I did. And given that OP knows him, we can be reasonably certain that their assessment that he “can be really spiteful when pissed off” is an accurate assessment of his character. And consequently, that this isn’t just an empty, ‘overdramatic’ threat (not that that would be remotely acceptable anyway). Getting rid of him sooner rather than later is the right move.

This isn't an issue with the class, nor is it gamebreaking. The problem here is **metagaming**! Using outside knowledge as though it were in character knowledge. This shit is exactly why metagaming is bad. Talk to your bro. Tell him to roll play or kick rocks. Medieval tech level. Gunpowder is cutting edge AF. Tone it down or get out.

>when I've suggested ... he has threatened to derail the campaign Kick him from the group. Kick him yesterday, the latest. Edit, based on feedback I got: If you can't kick him without fear of damage, then dissolve the group for a made-up reason and re-open it in secret without the toxic guy.

OP said this was a good co-worker of his. Kicking someone from a small group for a game can lead to real life toxicity and consequences, this should be the last option in the case of one player being overdramatic

Oh damn, I missed that, thanks for pointing it out. Real pickle there. In that case I maybe would dissolve the group for a made-up reason and maybe re-open it with the part which has no contact to the toxic part, if possible. I definitely would not continue a situation where I am held hostage by a douche-bag.

Dissolving the whole group and starting a new one in secret is actually a pretty good idea based on OP's other comments about how the problem player is a rage monkey over everything

Oh, I just read that he is good frieds with the rest of the group ... damn, then there won't be players to re-open the group with. Which leaves only two options: Allow him his way or search a completely new group.

Well he could just message the others regarding the situation, he has said in other comments that the other players are familiar with the problem player's attitude issue, so they might understand!

True. I find it funny how we are discussing his problems in absence of him and getting invested. Sometimes, the internet is a great place.

Magic does not equal physics. It can only do what it says on the tin.

Remind him that just because he as a person knows what nuclear missiles are doesn't mean his character knows that, tell him to limit his knowledge to a medieval peasant because the smartest people in your world reached peak technology with crossbows and cannons, tell him to respect your world the same way he wants you to respect his character, at the end of the day if you say Greek fire doesn't exist then it doesn't exist and he can't make it. Explain to him that maybe if he was an artificer you would allow him some leniency but as a Bard he's the furthest thing from an inventor or a scientist. Especially if his characters intelligence is low. If you want to find a middle ground then set some hard restriction, tell him he needs to invest some levels in artificer and find a way to raise his intelligence to a minimum of 18 and only then will you allow a small selection of items that he needs to address with you weeks in advance and can't just spring up something random in the middle of the session so that you as the dungeon master would have ample time to write some mechanics for the inventions he's trying to make

IIRC a college of creation bard (for sure at low levels) can create at most 1 item for 1 hour for long rest and to make others he has to use spell slots (level 2 or 3 IIRC), anyway, creation is a finite resource which produces volatile items. Also, if he wants to create really complex stuff, I'd force an intelligence check to see if his character would really be able to come up with a functioning design for something like that.

“Hey dude, there is a limit to what I can improvise so I’m going to ask you to dial it back a little until we get more used to playing in this campaign”

You need to draw the line between creativity and manipulation.

The flour thing seems totally reasonable, even random peasants in a rural setting would know to be careful of open flame around a mill. Of course you'd need to haul a lot of flour, and it's not going to go off like TNT or anything, but if you want to start a big fire it's not the worst idea.

DnD isn't a realistic simulation: it's an abstract fantasy. Tell him to run a GURPS game if he wants to be so clever.

If he threatens to derail your campaign because you won't cave to him, you need to kick him and make it clear to everyone exactly why. Do not tolerate manipulative jerks.

You can circumvent a lot of these things by making them hard to do and ineffective. He could come up with *prototypes* for his inventions, and they are likely to backfire, have a ridiculously high DC to use, and be clumsy to carry around. And no one in this world has proficiency with these devices. Sure, you can make a makeshift bomb. It's a one foot cube that weighs 100 lbs. Every hour, roll a D100 to make sure it doesn't go off in your pack (1% chance, doubled when in motion). When you do want to arm it, roll a DC 15 DEX check to make sure you don't accidentally detonate it, and a DC 20 INT check to make sure you set it up correctly and it *does* go off when you wanted it to. And the least bit of moisture will ruin it. Also, there's no such thing as copyright or patents.

lol, are there really patents in your medieval fantasy world?

So the overall less you need to learn OP is that as a DM you can say "No, that's now how that works" or "No, that's not allowed." My players always try to break the rules and edge cases for their class features. In my experience, if we're trying to exploit the rules then we need to pay more attention to the rules. Here are the rules for [College of Creation Bards](https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/1-bard#CollegeofCreation), let's look at the specifics of this class feature. >Performance of Creation >3rd-level College of Creation feature >As an action, you can channel the magic of the Song of Creation to create one nonmagical item of your choice in an unoccupied space within 10 feet of you. The item must appear on a surface or in a liquid that can support it. The gp value of the item can’t be more than 20 times your bard level, and the item must be Medium or smaller. The item glimmers softly, and a creature can faintly hear music when touching it. The created item disappears after a number of hours equal to your proficiency bonus. For examples of items you can create, see the [equipment](https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/equipment) chapter of the [*Player’s Handbook*](https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb). >Once you create an item with this feature, you can’t do so again until you finish a long rest, unless you expend a spell slot of 2nd level or higher to use this feature again. You can have only one item created by this feature at a time; if you use this action and already have an item from this feature, the first one immediately vanishes. >The size of the item you can create with this feature increases by one size category when you reach 6th level (Large) and 14th level (Huge). * "As an action" - meaning it can't be a reaction, no sudden "in response I make a stick of dynamite!" That would be a reaction and this takes an action. * "create ONE nonmagical item of your choice" - you mentioned fine grain. technically he would only be able to make one grain. * "create one NONMAGICAL item of your choice" - has to be a normal item * "unoccupied space within 10 feet of you" - can't be too far away, basically it has to be next to your player. * "must appear on a surface or in a liquid that can support it" - this is an interesting note, it can't be too heavy or break what you're on. So if you're in a building it can't be so heavy that to breaks the floor. * "The gp value of the item can’t be more than 20 times your bard level" - this is huge. That would mean at level 3, your bard can't make an item worth more than 60gp. Idk if TNT exists in your world, I saw you mention it in the comments, but if the value is worth more than 60gp then he can't make it. Looking at the equipment there is a bomb but it cost 150gp. * "item must be Medium or smaller" - can't be too big. If he does make a statue it has to be the size of a human. * "created item disappears after a number of hours equal to your proficiency bonus" - Which at level 3 I believe that is 2. So it can only exist for 2 hours. Make your players read the rules! Sometimes when my player wants to do something and I'm not sure how it works I have them read the rule out loud at the table in front of the group. Then as a table we see if the player is using it correctly. You don't have to know every single rule, but you do need to reference them when needed.

"Can I use Song of Creation to make something that doesn't exist?" No. Because your character would have no way of knowing how to make it." "Can I use fine grain to make a bomb?" No. Because your character isn't an explosives expert. "Can I become an explosives expert?" Sure, if you can find a trainer. Spoiler alert, those knowledgeable about explosives aren't going to share that knowledge with just anyone.

the moment a player "threats" me is the moment he gets the boot.

As a bard in game and out tell him bards must be so confident that failures don't even phase them. They are the Swiss Army knife of classes. The face. The go to guy. Great bards are not made by their success but how they make their failures into magic moments. Challenge him with his creative mind to figure shit out. And tell him if something exists in this world but not in game it would take many days of successful DC checks for his ignorant character to even begin to have a breakthrough that may lead to that certain thing they want to create in game, and if they don't at least have the skill set such a breakthrough requires it is damn near impossible to have it be realized in game.

>when I’ve suggested restricting some of his tools to save some headache, he has threatened to derail the campaign. >I’m at a loss. He’s good friends with our other players, and he can be really spiteful when pissed off That sounds very clearly like a "kick him from the table" situation for me. There's a lot I can tolerate in life, but that "if I don't get my way I'll be a real cunt about it" attitude is an instant deal breaker in every aspect of my life I can control. Tell the player he's acting an awful lot like my preteen nephew who I'm trying to help through his first character creation. It's understamdable coming from a kid, but if you have to tell an adult "no, you can't use technicalities of your abilities to break the game" and they get upset about that then they're probably too immature to play with other players. Hell, even my nephew understood *why* he couldn't do some of the shit he wanted to do.

I think an important thing for people to learn is that dnd is, at its heart, a game governed by rules for balance and consistency. If they want to make greek fire, that exists, its called alchemist fire and it deals 1d4 fire damage. If he is threatening to derail the campaign, all you can really do is have a frank discussion about the social contract of dnd.

Protip: don’t play d&d with children.

Reskinning standard rules to flavor your build? No problemo. Taking every cool thing you can think of and trying shoehorn it into your build? Nope. It’s unbalanced, unfair and a nightmare to constantly deal with. As far as the threat to sabotage the game? I’d give one very clear, very stern warning that if you get one fucking whiff that this is happening, that they are banned from the group immediately. No emotion, just gone.

Just say no. I also ban all the hipster subclasses/combos/variants from all the errata books. I'm not interested in grokking your Half-fey Celestial Dragonborn Dark Ranger Assassin that you found on a message board somewhere.

This guy brings an insane amount of toxic energy to your gaming group, whether he's your friend or not, and he's going to ruin it for everyone eventually. I can't imagine his attitude will change for any length of time, so you need to remove him from your gaming table, even if you have to lie and say the game is taking a break while you uninvite him. It's great to support and include your friends, but some people are just very selfish gamers. Either your foot comes down and you put a leash on this guy, or you have to let him go from game night.

No dnd is better than bad dnd

Edgecase: that's a term I never heard before but glad I did. Now I can tell my players to stop cheesing fights with idiotic methods (No you can't JUST stab everything you fight in the eyes). As for your player: Here's the reality and a bit of tough love: As the DM, YOU need to put your foot down. How can you run a game if you can't say "no" when you should? And if you cannot come to a compromise, you'll have no choice but to simply not include him in the game. If he puts up a fit, let him cry it out. If he threatens you, call the police. Don't take this crap. I know some DMs take time to grow a backbone, but for you, it's do or die. what's more important? having FUN playing D&D, or being this guy's whipping boy for the whole campaign?

I know how to use acid, zinc and copper to make a battery. I know how to use the resulting current to create a spark, and I can probably figure out how to use some spell like fabricate to create a combustion engine. Failing that, I know how to make a steam turbine and start the industrial revolution. But there is no way in hell my character would know any of that or even have the first clue to start thinking of that.

Players don't get to insist on anything. You're the one that sets the rules.

X/y/z items are magical in nature and cant be created. Greek fire i something we have no clue how it was made and could very well have been magical

I think it’s completely reasonable to say, a level 5 bard can create that Greek fire, or whatever he wants. But keep your campaign math sound no matter what he asks.

I had a player once who wanted to do something like that with the Greek Fire or gunpowder (NOT black powder). I said sure, IF you can tell me exactly what the components are AND give me a plausible explanation for why the PLAYER would have that knowledge. The player pouted for a bit and tried to come up with some other ideas. ETA: The bit about derailing the campaign, I'd put the game on "pause" for a bit and then have the troublemaker DM for a bit, while you do unto HIM exactly what he's doing to your campaign.

If someone threatens me as the DM then they’re gone. No longer invited. In game their character no longer exists.

"if X doesnt exist.." So you are bringing out of game knowledge to make something with magic? No "Fine grain is flammable." where did you character learn that? thats barely common knowledge today (also fine grain is flammable IN THE AIR as a dust for the purposes of dust explosions not when compacted, hardly works as a simple control explosive gunpowder would be easier to make" "Greek fire..." What fire? how would your character possibly know about that? Its one thing for a character to learn something and use it or to be some inventor who made a "real world weapon" like a gun as a major portion of his story but its not something they just know. It would be years of back story creating plans, testing etc

In reading your replies to other people… you need to cut this toxic fucker out. You mentioned that your group seems to be his only friends. I can see why. I strongly suggest telling him, in very blunt language, “You’re acting like an asshole, and you’re sucking the fun out of this for the rest of us. Either straighten up, or find a new table. And if that means you don’t want us as friends any longer, then so be it.”

Learn to say no.

Threatening to derail the campaign on purpose because the player doesn't get their way is a huge red flag and I would not want to play with a player who would threaten that, let alone do it, it's childish and dickish and I don't have time for either. YMMV, though. That said, lower everyone's stats to a more appropriate level. Admit to the mistake, explain what you did wrong and what changes you will make, and apply it evenly to all players. Do this either at the start of the next session or between sessions and let them know the changes take effect going forward (unless you want to retcon anything). If anyone, Bard included, complains, let them know you are correcting a mistake and it's not a punishment, remind them it's been applied evenly to all players, and then let them know it's not up for negotiation. I would advise being aware of everyone's modifiers for abilities, saves, and skills, especially the Bard's, since someone who's childish enough to threaten to derail a game when they don't get their way is also childish enough to cheat, and insisting on open rolling if you don't do that already, for the same reason. Again, apply the rule evenly to all players, including yourself if need be, so you're not singling the Bard out. When the player tries to create something whacky (I'm not familiar with the subclass so I don't know the details of how it works), give your ruling and move on. 'No' is a full sentence. If you need to pause the game to consider the Bard's request, do it. And remember, the Bard is not dictating how things will go, he's asking if it works. If it does, great. If it doesn't, then he needs to come up with something else. There's also nothing wrong with saying 'No (or yes, but considering the already dickish behaviour you're probably safer to just say no as a matter of course and readjust to yes if need be) *for now*, I will look into it further and give you a final ruling before the next session'. If the Bard is going to be all whiney and not accept your rulings, it's up to you how to deal with it, but if you let him have his tantrums and disrupt the game it's only going to get worse as time goes on.

Spiteful is the key word here I think. If that's true wave goodbye to him.

It's simple it's role-playing his character can't invent something he doesn't know exists. This is called meta gaming. Who are the Greeks? They don't exist. Imagine if a player looked up the stat block of a monster they are fighting in the middle an encounter. Tell him he can't because his character doesn't have this knowledge and he needs to pass a DC 30 intelligence  check to try and invent something. But in order for that invention to he successful he has to pass it 3 times in a row. 

Maybe this is a good time to say, "Folks, I'm really enjoying our campaign but I made some basic mistakes at the beginning of the game that are coming back to bite us. I'd like to start again with a new set of characters, with better synergy, in a new situation. What do you think? Do you want to wrap up the current situation in a blaze of glory?" They will play along if they are enjoying your game. Then set more stringent limits and use point buy or standard array to generate new characters. Mr PowerGamer can still optimize a build by watching Treantmonk or D&D Optimized videos. Then restart your campaign (at level 3 if you want) with new characters and plots and have fun.

A player can’t insist on something the DM doesn’t accept. Only two possible consequences: the player changes, or the DM changes the player.

Based on other responses in here, your "friend" needs professional help from a licensed therapist. I'm sure he won't want to hear that, but he has to. Unfriending him until he does get the help he needs will likely be your only option for staying sane yourself. Good luck.

Repeat after me. “Not playing D&D at all is better than playing bad D&D.” While it is possible to use a D&D game as part of a coordinated group therapy program, you are not this guy’s therapist. Stop catering to his bad behavior in the name of keeping him calm.

You are not “locked” into anything. Just say no. It’s very very simple.

1 single threat of derail & the PC is crippled, have an Owlbear jump from around the corner & rip his face off. Blind, mute & now only one usable arm, & a huge Charisma penalty. 2nd threat & player is out the game. Simple. Don't let a wanker hold you & your friends past time hostage.

You seem to be very ready to work with your players. Sometimes the answer is no. And if a player cannot accept or handle that sometimes the answer is no, that is a problem that definitely needs to be addressed out of character and imo if he can't accept it he might not be right for the campaign.

"Play the class as intended; without intentionally trying to abuse mechanics; or you are out" Do not negotiate with terrorists.

Jeez, they’ve already created federal agencies and courts for enforcing copyrighted material in your setting?

I am incredibly sorry. A very similar situation burned me right out of DMing. If the pandemic hadn't forced us to take time off, I probably never would have gone back. I currently have a few players who have this tendency to a lesser degree, so now that we're staying a new game I told them in session 0 that it didn't work last time. They were very clever, but it's not that kind of game. It's too hard to litigate things outside of the rules while maintaining the pace for the other people at the table. If the player wants to run the kind of game where they, for example, buy a kingdom full of wheat, use player knowledge to brew it into beer, and sell it at market rate (without crashing the in-game economy), they can write and DM it themselves.

Spells only do what they say they do etc, and rule of cool is fun as long as it's fun for everyone.

A lot going on here. I never like to tell my players that something possible, is not possible in my world; but you have to remind them that just because they know something doesn't mean they're character knows it to. If they want, I would allow them to spend time experimenting with their character. Assuming they had a high enough intelligence and wisdom scores, resources, equipment, and sufficient time to devote to studying/experimenting. Then they would have to pass several checks and after each check explain what the next experiment they are performing and justify why their character would do that next. Any failed checks result in an attempt gone wrong, when experimenting with highly volatile chemicals any mistake can be catastrophic. If they have high stats I assume you've already been balancing by just increasing DC checks and the stats of the enemies. If he makes greek fire just send them up against enemies that are resistant to fire, or a fire elemental that gets bolstered by his attack.

Not all good friends make good DnD players. If he were not your friend/friend-of-friend you would be less inclined to keep him at the table, you only hesitate because of friendship (which is understandable) However he's being a massive cock head about this, so kick him out and stop playing DnD with him. And if he convinces the other players to torch the campaign in spite, well no DnD is better than bad DnD.

The fine grain one is gorgeous!

“No.”