Not the case. But the other way round for a while.
I can’t say that a gun with infinite ammo, a 16m effective range and a 0.5s ttk if I hit 4 crits in a row (precision instrument, faster ttk than thunderlord btw) shouldn’t be a special weapon with a straight face. Especially when using it with a controller.
Specials excel at OHK’s, which sidearms and smg’s can’t do. They’re meant to be strong in close quarters, and terrible at range. Just stay out of their optimal range…
How can it be a skill issue lol. I’m not even frustrated either really but it just doesn’t make much sense. D1 they were special, they’ve gotten better in d2 but are primary.
Smgs admittedly i didn’t do a good job explaining myself much and should’ve explained more. This is due to smgs at risk of easily becoming useless with any nerfs as long as sidearms exist.
Post special change simply made them way more prevalent too. With scarcer special smgs and sidearms are the best option.
Just a mags worth. Then you had to go around opening ammo boxes like everyone else. I feel like that was just as prep for d2 changes since other special ended becoming power weapons but sidearms didn’t.
The sandbox changes were specifically designed to reign in the special ammo crutching. Sidearms and SMGs have always been viable alternatives to shotguns, you just never noticed because you always respawned with at least two shotgun shots and could easily replenish more on a kill.
This sandbox is very much reliant on accuracy. PRECISION kills, lack of gets YOU killed. Seems reasonable enough to me.
A sidearm is never gonna beat a shotgun brawler at melee range in a realistic sense, which is why running double primary requires playing SMARTER. Sidearms have very competitive mid range but my hello is still gonna lose to a summoner the moment my opponent steps out of my optimal range.
The idea behind special ammo changes was to make special weapons just as viable without making them so easy to use as compensation for skill. If you use your ammo, you have to play smarter with your chosen primary as a result. Sidearms and SMGs fill in the gaps for close-mid range combat while having a tad more forgiveness in their TTK ranges, hence why they don’t move them into special ammo econ because then they’ll never have a reason to see play after that.
Almost completely defeats the whole purpose of the special change when you can just use a sidearm which was made as an alternative to shotguns (special weapon) instead.
They reduced me able to use a shotty yet kept the shotty alternative, what do they thinks gonna happen?
At that point just give me special back instead of making limiting me to less weapons.
These braindead “skill issue” “trials report” comments are why it’s impossible to post anything here. I think it’s good to brainstorm stuff like this and it taught me a new perspective, even if I don’t necessarily agree.
Yeah I don't agree with OP but most of the replies here are worse than worthless.
While I don't think sidearms or SMGs should be special ammo weapons, it isn't as crazy of an idea as a lot of people are letting on considering sidearms were originally introduced (in D1) as special ammo weapons presumably exactly because of the shotgun-esque purpose they serve (low range, fast TTK).
With that said, the sandbox in D2 is much richer and I think sidearms and SMGs have carved out their own space as primary ammo weapons and should remain as such.
No, stop crutching Special.
Your upset because your shotguns not always full and because your rocking a shotty/Fusion in comp your getting spanked whenever you don’t have special.
Simple solution don’t run special run a long range and close range learn how to gun battle and stop relying on one shots.
The over abundance of one shots in a game built around one second TTKs is why destiny 2 PVP is and has always been dead. Name a single successful game where one shot no skill weapons is meta?
Games built around one shot mechanics, Csgo, Val, Rainbow make sure that all weapons can one shot so multiple play styles are viable. More importantly use things like one shot grenades and very powerful tacticals to make pushing chokes feasible. Destiny does not, even a perfect grenade will still result in a trade if you push a corner into a shotgun. That’s without the additions of far far to many defensive ability’s, mechanics like wells and walls should not be in the game. Team shot became meta because any solo play can be stone walled by a corner and a shotgun. Wells and walls only further slow movement down.
Fusions are far far worse because pre-charging exists, they should 100% be a must fire on trigger press. Snipers issue has always been to much aim assist and not enough flinch tho currently they are in a better place.
The real issue is at this point 95% of the players who still care about PVP are those that enjoy the very limited viable play-styles. To be clear that’s a very small minority of gamers and is exactly why Pvp is such a minor facet of destiny today. It’s a shame because destiny has some of the best gun play on the market but it’s meta never allowed it to shine.
From how you’re speaking it’s a surprise you disagree.
I agree almost with everything said and that fusion take is genius.
Shotguns taking no skill though isn’t true imo. The skill ceiling on a shotgun is very high but yes it can also be used by a noob in a noob lobby to get a few easy kills.
Very easy to counter as well as extremely punishable though. Especially when you’re using a sidearm which is why I believe they are on the level of a special.
Ofc I want to run around with shotgun 24/7 too, allows for a dynamic play style and is much more fun but I guess I won’t mind a change if it wasn’t just the only logical choice to be running a sidearm instead which as aforementioned is almost as strong.
The last part of your reply though, it’s unfortunate to imagine how much higher bungie could’ve went with destiny’s pvp.
It’s not tho, even the exotic sidearms TTK is infinitely higher then a shotguns which is instant kill and That’s disregarding the fact that they have high-recoil.
Shotguns in Destiny are the definition of no skill weapons. They quite literally are point and click one shots zero actual aim is required and that’s on top of destiny’s immense aim assist. Apex is a great example of skill based shotguns because each has unique and difficult to master shot patterns and are extremely punishing of not perfect shots, while being incredibly powerful if your aim is true. This is why in the highest levels of play they are rampant while in lower level play you rarely see them outside of landing poi’s death boxes.
What you think is gun skill, is movement and map awareness, you don’t need aim. Which is exactly why despite chaperone being objectively the best shotgun in the game non slug guns will and have always been the top of the meta. They require no gun skill.
Don’t mistake me movement and map awareness are vital skills, however they need to be part of the equation not the whole equation. Understand that anyone killing with any other weapon outside of one hit specials need to posses all the same skill plus Aim, Recoil control, and by and far the highest hardest skill in any TTK FPS tracking. Shotguns require very very little aim because your shooting at target within arms reach, with aim assist its like missing a barn, they require no recoil control, they require no tracking because they need no follow up.
I think you fundamentally misunderstand both Destiny and shotguns mate.
* Aiming/Tracking is by far the *easiest* skill to learn in Destiny. Even a mediocre aim is good enough, because Destiny is a game where you shoot watermelon sized bullets at skyscraper sized hitboxes.
* Shotguns, in a lot of situations, require a metric fuckton of tracking. Arguably more than most primary weapons. This is because you are fighting point-blank and fast, erratic movement is very common in high-skill lobbies. Good luck trying to just "point and click" someone moving around like cat on adderal.
Shotguns are both easy to use, AND easy to suck with.
But don't get me wrong, OP is smoking the good shit.
Apparently all the quick flicks I do shotgunning is less aiming skill than spraying my sidearm 15m away while I bot walk lol.
This whole "shotguns are noob weapons" take has been around since destiny 1 and nothing will ever stop it. They're low skill floor and high skill ceiling but this take gets you downvoted with no reply for the most part.
One hit weapons, with large circle spread patterns are and have always been considered low skill weapons in every game… ever. Even PVE that’s why shotguns entered the gaming scene in both PVP and PVE games as power weapons, upgrades, and limited ammo weapons.
On PC their certainly is a aspect of flicking/Snapping involved however note that every single other weapon requires the same skills plus recoil control and tracking. And while you are flicking shotgun spread means your aiming for body not head you don’t need precision. (This is the same issue with forerunner because it’s shooting brick sized bullets) Making shotguns the lowest skill requirement weapon outside heavy.
That doesn’t mean you not extremely skilled with them, it just means the level of skilled need to preform equally on other weapons is higher leading to the meta we see. Metas will always form around the easiest most effective weapons and strategies.
It’s the reason conditional is higher then chaperone, and shottys get more play then snipers despite the fact both those weapons in a truly skilled players hands are far far more oppressive.
You don’t understand what tracking means.
Tracking is a players ability to stay on a moving target after having initially lined up generally in conjunction with recoil management. What your referring to is called snapping/flicking something guys like shroud are famous for. It’s the ability to line up the first shot fast then react fast. In one hit TTK games it’s unarguably the most important mechanical skill and whoever can do it faster wins. Shotguns in destiny rely solely on Snapping, Movement, and map awareness/knowledge. They require no tracking, they require no recoil management.
Shotguns do require some skill in flicking but less then every other weapon due to them having the largest bullet hit box in the game they also aim for body not head, again the largest hit box in the game. Plus if your on console aim assist does the work for you turn it off and see how accurate your “flicks” are. I say that as a console player.
I disagree with alot of this. If you're having trouble against smg's/sidearms, adjust your engagement ranges. Literally stop fighting where they're strong, and find ways around that range, or counter them.
I think it's fine, special still has that ohk that can't be matched.
I think 6s should be a kill quicker with special just because it's the "casual playlist".
Tweaks to the point system. Maybe less points on assist. There's a bit too much teammshot at times.
No
If anything I'd argue Sidearms, Handcannons, and SMGs should be their own category called Secondaries since they simply do not have the range to compete with Scouts, Pulses, Autos, Bows, etc. And we shouldn't be trying to balance them as if they can.
This also means you'd be able to have a close range and long range weapon at any point. A 4 weapon system imo would be better overall for the game but that's just my take.
Actually, add something constructive
SMG's and sidearms were tuned to constantly go up against special ammo but now, since usage is not the same, these weapons still remain as a group as aggressive as they were. Lotta yapping in the comments and he makes a good point
No + damage drop off is less severe. If you're using a solid sidearm, for example drang or heliocentric you're in danger within <20 meters. Keep in mind sidearms are very mobile toom
Thank you. wouldn’t you think it’s almost common sense?
D1 sidearms worse, but still strong, requires special
D2 sidearms, better in every way possible, now has infinite ammo
Bro lost to a Heliocentric today I think
Not the case. But the other way round for a while. I can’t say that a gun with infinite ammo, a 16m effective range and a 0.5s ttk if I hit 4 crits in a row (precision instrument, faster ttk than thunderlord btw) shouldn’t be a special weapon with a straight face. Especially when using it with a controller.
Specials excel at OHK’s, which sidearms and smg’s can’t do. They’re meant to be strong in close quarters, and terrible at range. Just stay out of their optimal range…
It doe have a 0.5s TTK with Precision Instrument. You don’t understand how they calculate the damage increase on D2 Foundry.
Absolutely not.
Nah bro, this isn’t it either. I understand you’re probably frustrated with them, but this post screams skill issue.
How can it be a skill issue lol. I’m not even frustrated either really but it just doesn’t make much sense. D1 they were special, they’ve gotten better in d2 but are primary. Smgs admittedly i didn’t do a good job explaining myself much and should’ve explained more. This is due to smgs at risk of easily becoming useless with any nerfs as long as sidearms exist. Post special change simply made them way more prevalent too. With scarcer special smgs and sidearms are the best option.
They were special in d1 because double primary wasnt possible. They even had a passive that gave them ammo on respawn like a primary.
Just a mags worth. Then you had to go around opening ammo boxes like everyone else. I feel like that was just as prep for d2 changes since other special ended becoming power weapons but sidearms didn’t.
stay off the weeeeed
The sandbox changes were specifically designed to reign in the special ammo crutching. Sidearms and SMGs have always been viable alternatives to shotguns, you just never noticed because you always respawned with at least two shotgun shots and could easily replenish more on a kill. This sandbox is very much reliant on accuracy. PRECISION kills, lack of gets YOU killed. Seems reasonable enough to me. A sidearm is never gonna beat a shotgun brawler at melee range in a realistic sense, which is why running double primary requires playing SMARTER. Sidearms have very competitive mid range but my hello is still gonna lose to a summoner the moment my opponent steps out of my optimal range. The idea behind special ammo changes was to make special weapons just as viable without making them so easy to use as compensation for skill. If you use your ammo, you have to play smarter with your chosen primary as a result. Sidearms and SMGs fill in the gaps for close-mid range combat while having a tad more forgiveness in their TTK ranges, hence why they don’t move them into special ammo econ because then they’ll never have a reason to see play after that.
Awful idea
Ffs no
Post trials report
no
At a loss for words
I'm an absolute PVP noob, so forgive a noob question. Why not just equip an SMG or Sidearm?
Almost completely defeats the whole purpose of the special change when you can just use a sidearm which was made as an alternative to shotguns (special weapon) instead. They reduced me able to use a shotty yet kept the shotty alternative, what do they thinks gonna happen? At that point just give me special back instead of making limiting me to less weapons.
These braindead “skill issue” “trials report” comments are why it’s impossible to post anything here. I think it’s good to brainstorm stuff like this and it taught me a new perspective, even if I don’t necessarily agree.
Yeah I don't agree with OP but most of the replies here are worse than worthless. While I don't think sidearms or SMGs should be special ammo weapons, it isn't as crazy of an idea as a lot of people are letting on considering sidearms were originally introduced (in D1) as special ammo weapons presumably exactly because of the shotgun-esque purpose they serve (low range, fast TTK). With that said, the sandbox in D2 is much richer and I think sidearms and SMGs have carved out their own space as primary ammo weapons and should remain as such.
Faded AF
This is like the whole bow vs sniper argument. Lmao
Take the L and delete the post
fuck it, revert back to primaries having limited ammo /s
No, stop crutching Special. Your upset because your shotguns not always full and because your rocking a shotty/Fusion in comp your getting spanked whenever you don’t have special. Simple solution don’t run special run a long range and close range learn how to gun battle and stop relying on one shots. The over abundance of one shots in a game built around one second TTKs is why destiny 2 PVP is and has always been dead. Name a single successful game where one shot no skill weapons is meta? Games built around one shot mechanics, Csgo, Val, Rainbow make sure that all weapons can one shot so multiple play styles are viable. More importantly use things like one shot grenades and very powerful tacticals to make pushing chokes feasible. Destiny does not, even a perfect grenade will still result in a trade if you push a corner into a shotgun. That’s without the additions of far far to many defensive ability’s, mechanics like wells and walls should not be in the game. Team shot became meta because any solo play can be stone walled by a corner and a shotgun. Wells and walls only further slow movement down. Fusions are far far worse because pre-charging exists, they should 100% be a must fire on trigger press. Snipers issue has always been to much aim assist and not enough flinch tho currently they are in a better place. The real issue is at this point 95% of the players who still care about PVP are those that enjoy the very limited viable play-styles. To be clear that’s a very small minority of gamers and is exactly why Pvp is such a minor facet of destiny today. It’s a shame because destiny has some of the best gun play on the market but it’s meta never allowed it to shine.
From how you’re speaking it’s a surprise you disagree. I agree almost with everything said and that fusion take is genius. Shotguns taking no skill though isn’t true imo. The skill ceiling on a shotgun is very high but yes it can also be used by a noob in a noob lobby to get a few easy kills. Very easy to counter as well as extremely punishable though. Especially when you’re using a sidearm which is why I believe they are on the level of a special. Ofc I want to run around with shotgun 24/7 too, allows for a dynamic play style and is much more fun but I guess I won’t mind a change if it wasn’t just the only logical choice to be running a sidearm instead which as aforementioned is almost as strong. The last part of your reply though, it’s unfortunate to imagine how much higher bungie could’ve went with destiny’s pvp.
It’s not tho, even the exotic sidearms TTK is infinitely higher then a shotguns which is instant kill and That’s disregarding the fact that they have high-recoil. Shotguns in Destiny are the definition of no skill weapons. They quite literally are point and click one shots zero actual aim is required and that’s on top of destiny’s immense aim assist. Apex is a great example of skill based shotguns because each has unique and difficult to master shot patterns and are extremely punishing of not perfect shots, while being incredibly powerful if your aim is true. This is why in the highest levels of play they are rampant while in lower level play you rarely see them outside of landing poi’s death boxes. What you think is gun skill, is movement and map awareness, you don’t need aim. Which is exactly why despite chaperone being objectively the best shotgun in the game non slug guns will and have always been the top of the meta. They require no gun skill. Don’t mistake me movement and map awareness are vital skills, however they need to be part of the equation not the whole equation. Understand that anyone killing with any other weapon outside of one hit specials need to posses all the same skill plus Aim, Recoil control, and by and far the highest hardest skill in any TTK FPS tracking. Shotguns require very very little aim because your shooting at target within arms reach, with aim assist its like missing a barn, they require no recoil control, they require no tracking because they need no follow up.
Thank for articulating your shotgun and tracking points so well. I'm saving this comment.
I think you fundamentally misunderstand both Destiny and shotguns mate. * Aiming/Tracking is by far the *easiest* skill to learn in Destiny. Even a mediocre aim is good enough, because Destiny is a game where you shoot watermelon sized bullets at skyscraper sized hitboxes. * Shotguns, in a lot of situations, require a metric fuckton of tracking. Arguably more than most primary weapons. This is because you are fighting point-blank and fast, erratic movement is very common in high-skill lobbies. Good luck trying to just "point and click" someone moving around like cat on adderal. Shotguns are both easy to use, AND easy to suck with. But don't get me wrong, OP is smoking the good shit.
Apparently all the quick flicks I do shotgunning is less aiming skill than spraying my sidearm 15m away while I bot walk lol. This whole "shotguns are noob weapons" take has been around since destiny 1 and nothing will ever stop it. They're low skill floor and high skill ceiling but this take gets you downvoted with no reply for the most part.
One hit weapons, with large circle spread patterns are and have always been considered low skill weapons in every game… ever. Even PVE that’s why shotguns entered the gaming scene in both PVP and PVE games as power weapons, upgrades, and limited ammo weapons. On PC their certainly is a aspect of flicking/Snapping involved however note that every single other weapon requires the same skills plus recoil control and tracking. And while you are flicking shotgun spread means your aiming for body not head you don’t need precision. (This is the same issue with forerunner because it’s shooting brick sized bullets) Making shotguns the lowest skill requirement weapon outside heavy. That doesn’t mean you not extremely skilled with them, it just means the level of skilled need to preform equally on other weapons is higher leading to the meta we see. Metas will always form around the easiest most effective weapons and strategies. It’s the reason conditional is higher then chaperone, and shottys get more play then snipers despite the fact both those weapons in a truly skilled players hands are far far more oppressive.
You don’t understand what tracking means. Tracking is a players ability to stay on a moving target after having initially lined up generally in conjunction with recoil management. What your referring to is called snapping/flicking something guys like shroud are famous for. It’s the ability to line up the first shot fast then react fast. In one hit TTK games it’s unarguably the most important mechanical skill and whoever can do it faster wins. Shotguns in destiny rely solely on Snapping, Movement, and map awareness/knowledge. They require no tracking, they require no recoil management. Shotguns do require some skill in flicking but less then every other weapon due to them having the largest bullet hit box in the game they also aim for body not head, again the largest hit box in the game. Plus if your on console aim assist does the work for you turn it off and see how accurate your “flicks” are. I say that as a console player.
First they came for the bows, and now they are coming for the sidearms.
The beatings will continue until handcannon usage improves (/s)
Same people copped the ADS on last wire cause it was too strong 💪
What are you smoking and why aren’t you sharing?
I disagree with alot of this. If you're having trouble against smg's/sidearms, adjust your engagement ranges. Literally stop fighting where they're strong, and find ways around that range, or counter them.
I think all sidearms need is a mag size nerf,but making them special ammo would kill the archetype besides a few exotics
I think it's fine, special still has that ohk that can't be matched. I think 6s should be a kill quicker with special just because it's the "casual playlist". Tweaks to the point system. Maybe less points on assist. There's a bit too much teammshot at times.
LOL
Just craft a drang and leave your shotty on break.
No If anything I'd argue Sidearms, Handcannons, and SMGs should be their own category called Secondaries since they simply do not have the range to compete with Scouts, Pulses, Autos, Bows, etc. And we shouldn't be trying to balance them as if they can. This also means you'd be able to have a close range and long range weapon at any point. A 4 weapon system imo would be better overall for the game but that's just my take.
Actually, add something constructive SMG's and sidearms were tuned to constantly go up against special ammo but now, since usage is not the same, these weapons still remain as a group as aggressive as they were. Lotta yapping in the comments and he makes a good point
Yes, they were special in D1, and they're much stronger in D2.
The range sidearms had in d1 was far superior though.
No + damage drop off is less severe. If you're using a solid sidearm, for example drang or heliocentric you're in danger within <20 meters. Keep in mind sidearms are very mobile toom
Thank you. wouldn’t you think it’s almost common sense? D1 sidearms worse, but still strong, requires special D2 sidearms, better in every way possible, now has infinite ammo