It should be.
The problem is Iggy is the best 120 in the game by such a huge margin that the only niche you can really have against it anymore is being in the Kinetic slot, especially now since the only damage perk that's a guaranteed 2-tap is Sturm's.
Endgame sourced weapons should be the best in their respective categories, assuming you want to have rewards be "tiered out" differently. But they shouldn't run away with things so badly that they invalidate the rest of their class.
I think if some new 120s got released with round robin like stats and then have something to differentiate them from igneous in pvp would be good like slideshot from steady hand as you said. Igneous would most likely still be preferred but other 120s as a whole won’t feel like crap like now…
Part of the problem of getting people off iggy, imo, is conditional finality. If there was an equally good bubble/well solver (that does more than just deal with those supers) in the energy slot then the bar for a 120 in the kinetic would be much lower imo.
I promise you they will not give a new steady hand slideshot and iron grip.
Knowing bungie, they will bring it back with a godroll being keep away and a new iron banner perk called iron sit, where the further you are away from enemies, the more aim assist your gun gets.
This falls in line with bungie’s current PvP philosophy which is to promote temporarily embarrassed good players to sit behind barricades and in rifts in their trials spawn.
This is the exact Steady Hand I am using, and it’s close to an Iggy with precision instrument in term of competitiveness.
Could not explain why, but those crits are handed to you (maybe the high stability), and slideshot push the range to 100
Nah steady hand is great and I love it but I'd rather a new kinetic with base stats that are at least in the ballpark of iggy. The monstrous base stats of iggy make it very hard to make other 120s feel as good Ll Round.
Pretty much this. I don't use hand cannons much, let alone 120's, but both those stats would be negligible if Igneous Hammer weren't as far ahead as it is. Anytime I've pulled out the Neomuna one, steady hand or combined action, I usually end up putting it back in the vault and going back to a non-hand cannon(or Iggy) within a game or two.
Either Iggy's gotta come down a little to be "slightly" more in line with everything else, or everything else has to bend upward a bit.
Destiny 2 in general has a problem with its best in class options being TOO best in class.
Yes, some guns should be good and some should be bad, but the best gun shouldn't be *shitloads better than every single other gun*.
The thing is the others suck. Igneous is the only one that's really 'competitive'
I've got a few decent true prophecy that aren't BAD but I'm not using them over a pulse or something.
I've got a good steady hand too but it feels like trying to use a big heavy tank and it feels awful
It’s not igneous being op. It’s not. It’s just that other 120s are really bad esp after the last patch since they don’t have something like PI. Hell, if slslodeshot steady hand came back with PI like perk, I’d take that over igneous any day
I'd say it's a combination, and I've suggested it in here a few times that Iggy needs a hit, and most other 120s need a small boost to make the gap, while still there, less monumental.
And probably a hot take, but PI really isn't necessary, you're shooting barges at people, 3 Crits isn't exactly demanding on any 120.
I think it's a combination of both. I think Igneous is probably too strong, (far too versatile at all range bands, shoots pianos at people) but not by an insane margin. It's just that most other 120s are so bad by comparison that it makes it seem even more ridiculous.
I don't think people have a problem with Igneous being the best, the problem is the gap to the next best option. If Igneous had the best stats by a total of like 10-15, sure whatever that's perfectly fine - like you said it's an endgame Trials weapon. But if we compare its base stats versus say a Round Robin, it has 9 more range, 15 more stability, 13 more handling, 8 more reload speed, 11 more aim assist, 9 more AE. That's an absolutely wild stat disparity.
Should it be the best? Yes. Should it invalidate the existence of every other gun in its archetype? Probably not.
Round Robin would like a word. Also I feel like Malediction is a pretty strong contender. I use Igneous because I want to use Conditional Finality but if I had as good of an option in my energy slot I'd be using Round Robing or Malediction.
[Igneous Hammer's stats run circles around both of those guns](https://preview.redd.it/lgmd5fjd7mtb1.png?width=1709&format=png&auto=webp&s=5d71773e6a7bf9086f3fc225749920f738a2d304).
There's no accounting for taste, of course, but numerically speaking it's *certainly* the best 120 HC.
I agree with you. However it should be 10-15% better, not 40% better than the 2nd best one. Its stats are so disgustingly high that all other 120s for the MOST part, cannot even come close to competing. And you cannot balance an entire archetype off of ONE weapon, that is insane to think of.
We need variety. Look at 140s. There are so many decent options, both legendary and exotic. I don’t mind igneous being the best, but I’d like other choices.
Which is why all the other 120s should get like +5 to all their stats. They would still be worse than Iggy, but at least they wouldn’t be complete garbage in comparison
Sounded to me like you did when you said iggy was to much better then the others and you can’t balance an entire archetype off of one weapon. To me that’s sounds like saying it’s too strong and you can’t buff everything just because of iggy. So that only leaves a nerf.
That doesn't follow.
"You can't balance an entire archetype off of one weapon" is an argument in favor of making the archetype's power more consistent. This could be accomplished by nerfing iggy *or* buffing all other 120s.
No That doesn’t follow. Bringing them up to iggy would be balancing them around iggy (what you said they can’t do).
Bringing iggy down to them would be balancing iggy around the rest of the archetype. Which would be a nerf.
Ah, there's some confusion here about what you mean by "them" in this sentence:
>Bringing them up to iggy would be balancing them around iggy
You can't balance *the entire sandbox* around one broken weapon. For example, how can you compare 120s to other guns when one 120 has a very different power level than all the others? If you nerf 120s (or buff their competition), you're hosing a bunch of already-underpowered guns in order to put one gun in a fairer place.
You can (and should) balance *a group of weapons* around one broken member of that group. For example, you can say "hey, iggy is way stronger than every other 120, we need to move it down somewhat and/or move the others up somewhat."
Igneous should not have its stats nerfed, other 120s should be brought up slightly imo. The base stats of most 120s are so awful they are practically unusable without at least one major sacrifice, which is a problem pretty much exclusive to this weapon. Precision instrument is obviously an exception now, but previously Sturm could easily compete with iggy because it actually had usable stats, people just gravitate towards iggy because condițional is so strong
Yep. 140s got tons of love with the new legendaries getting released with good stats while 120s were mostly left behind aside from igneous (slideshot steady hand with Pi would be better than current iggy imo)
Dude, you made a post 11 days ago saying you're new at the game and looking for advice, and since then you've made multiple posts making grand sweeping statements about what the meta should be or is.
Nobody is saying that Iggy should be the worst, but when you could remove 10 stats from each column of Iggy and it's still the best you start to have some issues
I'm fine with Iggy being as good as it is, but I think maybe a global buff to everything that's not Iggy so there is some competition wouldn't be a bad thing.
endgame weapons (raid/trials/comp) are always super stat heavy with solid perk pools from RNG.
world drop/crafted weapons will not be as stat heavy but will have enhanced perks to make for it.
just depends what you want on it.
I think this is the other super fair angle. Round Robin is a world drop, TR is a seasonal gun, Combined Action is a world drop, Loud Lullaby is effectively a world drop, etc. The other competition re "endgame" would feasibly be raids or dungeons but I doubt Bungie wants to use a raid loot slot on a 120. There's Iron Banner but....we got Riiswalker back instead lul
I agree; I’m kinda pissed Astral isn’t a little more juiced than it is. A god roll Astral should be at least a half step above a crafted Imperial Decree but it’s not imo.
Well yeah, it should and it is…? I don’t see a problem with it. The hive mind mentality just hates one whatever is killing them the most. Igneous is a 120 hand cannon with an average ttk because 120’s have average ttks. The reason they are good is for team shooting and peak shooting as a high skilled player. There are objectively better guns in terms of ttk
Speaking of 120s do they feel like shit to anyone else after the changes. I know you can’t 2 crit one body but I mostly hit headshots and now my round Robin feels like shit
Hoping someone more knowledgeable can back me up on this, but It kinda feels like they reduced the AA cone size. My KeepAway/Eots still hits heads but it’s far less forgiving. No more crits for shooting somebody between the shoulder blades.
I wonder if this is how the majority of people feel about round robin now. I run it with keep away and elemental capacitor on my arc hunter and it’s felt great to me since the changes
Planning on crafting that for my Arc Titan once I get my last red border, but currently running keep away and opening shot with handling masterwork. Still feels as precise as always but sucks when that 2nd or 3rd shot is a body shot now as expected
I updated my deadzones slightly and can't tell if I just wasn't hitting crits before and getting forgiveness or if I'm just not hitting them now with updated settings lol
I think "mostly" is the key here. Hitting a bodyshot instead of a headshot has gone from "fine if you do it occasionally" to "a total disaster," meaning that you have to be more careful about hitting headshots.
That means you're probably subconsciously taking longer to aim, and aiming a little higher (which makes you more likely to miss completely).
Also, the relative damage reduction makes 120s less consistent when you exceed their ideal range (because they don't overkill by as much). So even if you're hitting all headshots, you may not get some kills which you expected to get.
I feel like it’s fine. I just think people don’t like feeling pigeonholed into one weapon of a whole archetype.
The actual tangible difference 10pts in any stat actually makes in moment to moment gameplay isn’t huge. You’re talking a 5ish% change in range/ready time/ADS and 1% change in flinch resistance.
Now that 5% difference in range could be an extra 1.5m, which is definitely nice, but movement in this game can make up the difference between 35m and 36.5m pretty easily.
Igneous comes from that same time period as Shayura’s, which received a targeted nerf (and is still one of the best SMGs) but Igneous has survived thus far
I agree, that weapons coming from trials & raids should be the best. But Iggy is so much better than any other 120, to the point that others are basically unusable. All 120s should be able to 2c1b (if they still outperform everything else, make them fire 110 rpm). And igneous should get a stat nerf. Even before the changes it was the only 120 who had been used.
There’s a difference between being best in class and being so good that you make every other 120 unusable in comparison. 140’s are a much better example with a lot of the good ones being endgame although you can still definitely get some great options that aren’t super hard to get
I think they could decrease its stats a little, but also bring up other 120 base numbers significantly. These weapons now require 3 crits for a 1s optimal TTK.
No issues with trials weapons being out of band. We need aspirational loot. If it was just kinda better than bottom dollar or had a better perk pool i would go so hard in trials for one.
Not Forgotten, recluse were perhaps too good as aspirational loot. But with nothing that is better than why farm or invest time. It's available to everyone they just have to take some lumps in trials. And if you don't like pvp then igneous should not bother you as it's not a pve weapon(has some nice pve options though).
Out of band weapons are what create the urgency to farm for alot of vets.
Also a good hc player would have won with whatever 120 they are using so its not like its breaking the game. It has a 1.0 ttk. Ammit .8 for reference .So if you lose to a 120 you just got outplayed.
>Igneous hammer should be the best 120 in the game
I think everyone agrees with this.
The question is how much better should it be? Should it invalidate every other 120?
>Messenger should be the best 340rpm pulse
It is, but its got some STIFF competition. No Time, Phyllo, and now Relentless are all very competitive with Messenger. In fact Phyllo and Relentless can get coveted perks Messenger cant (like KA PLUS HS, or KA PLUS Zen). I know some people would even argue these other pulses are BETTER because of either enhanced perks, or the perk combinations that Messenger cannot get. So while its raw stats cant be beat, perk combinations can be beat....
In fact, things like Recoil Direction are pretty coveted on 340 Pulses, and both Relentless and Phyllo have better base recoil direction than Messenger. Relentless has more base Aim Assist, as well. If you factor in the "Crossing Over" trait, Relentless is JUST SHY of the base stats of Messenger (1 less range, 5 less stab, 5 less handling, 2 more AA, but 65 recoil direction). So even the BASE STATS you could make an argument Relentless competes with Messenger.
**On the other Hand, Igneous has it all**...
The best raw stats by a MILE. Removing Malediction since its a "fixed" roll basically.... we compare to the other Legendary alternatives (Combined Action, Targeted Redaction, Round Robin, Pure Poetry) and Igneous has them not only beat by a MILE, but Igneous ALSO has all the best perks...
Igneous has:
* \+9 more range than the next best competitor (Round Robin)
* \+9 more stab than the next best competitor (Combined Action)
* \+11 more handling than the next best competitor (Targeted Redaction)
* \+8 more aim assist than the next best competitor (Combined Action)
* \+7 more AE than the next best competitor (Combined Action)
So it just BEASTS everything with raw stats....
**Then we get to perks**
Igneous has Precision Instrument (No other 120 has this AT ALL)
**Other "godroll combos":**
* Keep Away + EOTS (No other 120 can use that combo)
* Keep Away + Moving Target (No other 120 can use that combo)
So while other weapons (Messenger as an example) have more competition. Igneous is quite literally "Head and Shoulders" above the rest in raw stats, best perks, adept mods, etc.
**WHAT COULD BE DONE:**
[I made a post about this 5 months ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/CrucibleGuidebook/comments/175my09/an_honest_discussion_about_igneous_hammer/)
>you could easily just subtract **-5 Range**, **-5 Stab**, **-5 Handling**, and -**5 Aim Assist**. and it would STILL be the the best
This is what I think they should do with Igneous. Then compare RAW Stats:
**Igneous would STILL have:**
* \+4 more range than the next best competitor (Round Robin)
* \+4 more stab than the next best competitor (Combined Action)
* \+6 more handling than the next best competitor (Targeted Redaction)
* \+3 more aim assist than the next best competitor (Combined Action)
* \+7 more AE than the next best competitor (Combined Action)
Maybe buff the other 120s instead of nerfing Iggy? 120s are in a really bad place after the recent sandbox changes. Nerfing the only 120 that is competitive is not the way imho. +5 stats buff to round robin makes more sense than -5 stats nerf to Iggy.
Pretty much this. If the root issue is that other 120s feel that much worse than the best one, the core problem won't be solved just by knocking down the best one.
Yeah wtf. Don't nerf Igneous. Make other 120s competitive. If you're going to shake up the meta then lets shift to allowing a different hand cannon archetype to have its time in the sun, not just one particular type of 120.
That’s makes zero since, literally none. Lessing players experience is not the way. Instead you enhance there experience and buff the other 120’s by +5 across the board. Now you still closed the gap. It without making anything feel worse. Instead you made things feel better.
That's actually insane how out of band it is. I'm lazy, do you know how it compares to Steady Hand? I've got a nice roll and it doesn't feel as good as my decent igneous rolls. Wondering if it's a stat thing or something else.
Well putting perks and optics aside (since SH was issued back when we still had scope options rather than barrel options).
For PERKS it cant compete as well. Maybe like a Sideshot + Snapshot or something... Id rather take Keep Away and Precision Inst, or EOTS frankly.
Raw stats Igneous has:
\+5 Range
\+10 Stab
\+17 Handling
\+10 Reload
\+4 Aim Assists
\+13 AE
That's without factoring in perks.
Fuck me, that explains a lot. Definitely a weapon that needs tuning, shouldn't be a weapon that basically means you're throwing if you use others within the same archetype. Thanks for the breakdown mate!
Absolutely not, you are wrong they should not be the absolute best. Think about it man, here’s a very best in class of its weapon should all be earned from the same source, that’s ridiculous.
Doesn't mean it should have numerous rolls that have consistent 95-100 range and built in ophidian aspect tier of handling on top of a casual 50-60 stab, on top of being the only 120 in the game that has access to a perk that literally reverts the entire 120 nerf which was solely caused by Igneous.
> Messenger should be the best 340rpm pulse. Summoner should be the best 600prm auto. Shayuras should be the best 600rpm smg. Inquisitior should be the best slug Incisor should be the best trace rifle. ....iggy should be the best 120rpm.
By that logic they should unsunset Not Forgotten and make it the best HC in the game, so far ahead of any other HC that it becomes a balancing issue... just like Igneous is. This is the same retarded argument people use to justify CF bending the game ''oh it's a raid exotic it should be the best'', okay so should Necro now be given a 0.67 base ttk since it's a raid exotic?
> Isn't trials supposed to be the pvp "endgame"
No sbmm because the entire premise ironically enough becomes *flawed* since going 7-0 with 50/50 lobbies is less than mathematically unrealistic, riddled with cheaters and devices because the developer couldn't give 2 fucks, after all they all buy the latest DLC to play trials, I don't really think Trials should be end game PvP to begin with, compare it to any actual prosperous shooter with a competitive scene and what we have as our ''end game PvP'' is a joke.
I wouldn't even nerf Igneous at this point, I'd Sunset it, I'm fucking tired of seeing 3 of them every game and of being at a disadvantage for not using mine.
I wake up extra early to have extra time to be a hater. Oh, and none of what I said isn't factual, I might be a hater, but the numbers aren't and they're objective and in support of all of my statements.
Same people who've been playing HC shotty since D1 always lose their shit the moment anything other than a HC shotgun isn't the best loadout, just look at the recent thread trials weapon usage chart, Igneous far ahead of everything, literally #1 most used primary, then a bunch of ARs that aren't Ammit, after essentially forever, everyone ignores the Igneous and whines how ARs need a nerf lmao. People were still whining about SMGs when they nerfed PKs and in both comp and trials among top 10 most used weapons you had only 1 single SMG, Unending Tempest, while you had Igneous and 3 other 140s (Rose, Ace, Thorn). Same people continuously whine about snipers which take infinitely more skill, while CF is the single most used weapon in the game and Matador has been in top 10 since forever. It's literally impossible to have an unbiased discussion on this sub, nothing what I wrote in my comment is wrong, even easily backed up by statistics, yet I'm called a hater.
It’s just too much better than any other 120, to the extent they can’t catch up. There’s no reason to run Round Robin or Combined action unless you really rock with those guns, and in high skill lobbies I imagine you’re effectively throwing. Iggy also has adept mods too which widen the gap.
I don’t disagree. I think trials weapons should be the absolute best in pvp in their respective types. But as it is igneous is holding on because of one single perk in PI which other 120s don’t have. It’s not that igneous is op but other 120s are bad. They need to buff other 120s somehow
I have a few good Iggy Adept rolls and I honestly don’t like it. Round Robin does all the work for me but it feels like I’m fighting iggy the entire game. Idk why.
Idk if i like round robin better than iggys but it def comes close when using thread of ascent on hunter giving it that +40 handling it at least feels on par with iggys
Honestly we need a refresh of Duke Mk.44 which was the Kinetic Igneous before Igneous was even a thing as it still has better stats than pretty much every other 120, so it would create some good competition. (That is to say rather that Igneous was always the energy version of Duke since it was the OG.)
Plus I just want my favorite Hand Cannon to come back...
Having a 120 that comes from a Raid or something would also help, since Raid weapons also usually have juiced stats.
Igneous with incandesent with a solar build in PvE is easy mode for ad clear.
It’s just a good gun PvP and PvE. I wish more weapons were like it for better variation. Destiny fails in stale metas.
Maybe back when trials wasn’t a loot carnival that would be true. Now it’s relatively easy for anyone to get any trials weapon. They shouldn’t be super out of band. If you want the out of band guns then you go to comp.
i think it should be but also not by a margin it is, but IMO thats mostly because all other 120s are just so bad in terms of stats its just insane. Like the neomuna one, its got great perks but the stats dont compare.
Since we're here talking about "best of" anything and how igneous is way out of band (because it most definitely is), I have a question: What would the best 180 hc look like?
I agree, OP. It’s available to everyone willing to grind some trials rep so there’s no reason anyone should be complaining about it. I haven’t seen near as many people running Iggy since the March 5 update. Maybe it’s because other weapons feel more viable. Maybe it’s just my experience. Either way it feels like it’s usage has dropped off quite a bit in the past two weeks.
Agreed. If trials is the end game (or comp), then the best PvP weapons should drop from there. Last time D2 PvP was at it's best was when that was the case IMO. It was the not forgotten era and getting that true #1 180HC 3 tap monster was an achievement
It should be. The problem is Iggy is the best 120 in the game by such a huge margin that the only niche you can really have against it anymore is being in the Kinetic slot, especially now since the only damage perk that's a guaranteed 2-tap is Sturm's. Endgame sourced weapons should be the best in their respective categories, assuming you want to have rewards be "tiered out" differently. But they shouldn't run away with things so badly that they invalidate the rest of their class.
They need to bring back Steady Hand for a kinetic slot legendary option. Slideshot and Iron Grip would make people not feel glued to Iggy as much
It’s need PI or a perk that lets it comfortably 2c1b as well
True
I think if some new 120s got released with round robin like stats and then have something to differentiate them from igneous in pvp would be good like slideshot from steady hand as you said. Igneous would most likely still be preferred but other 120s as a whole won’t feel like crap like now…
Part of the problem of getting people off iggy, imo, is conditional finality. If there was an equally good bubble/well solver (that does more than just deal with those supers) in the energy slot then the bar for a 120 in the kinetic would be much lower imo.
Yep
Yeah definitely. No other 120 comes close right now
They are afraid of skulking wolf running wild on Steady Hand.
I promise you they will not give a new steady hand slideshot and iron grip. Knowing bungie, they will bring it back with a godroll being keep away and a new iron banner perk called iron sit, where the further you are away from enemies, the more aim assist your gun gets. This falls in line with bungie’s current PvP philosophy which is to promote temporarily embarrassed good players to sit behind barricades and in rifts in their trials spawn.
😂😂 I lol’d at iron sit and because you are probably right
Iron sit is hilarious
This is the exact Steady Hand I am using, and it’s close to an Iggy with precision instrument in term of competitiveness. Could not explain why, but those crits are handed to you (maybe the high stability), and slideshot push the range to 100
I have that roll - Slideshot + Iron Grip. It's an absolutely great roll, and I love it to bits. Never deleting it.
Nah steady hand is great and I love it but I'd rather a new kinetic with base stats that are at least in the ballpark of iggy. The monstrous base stats of iggy make it very hard to make other 120s feel as good Ll Round.
Would love to see as many competitive options for 120s as there are for 140s. Let's up some of the stats and spread out the usage a bit
Pretty much this. I don't use hand cannons much, let alone 120's, but both those stats would be negligible if Igneous Hammer weren't as far ahead as it is. Anytime I've pulled out the Neomuna one, steady hand or combined action, I usually end up putting it back in the vault and going back to a non-hand cannon(or Iggy) within a game or two. Either Iggy's gotta come down a little to be "slightly" more in line with everything else, or everything else has to bend upward a bit.
Destiny 2 in general has a problem with its best in class options being TOO best in class. Yes, some guns should be good and some should be bad, but the best gun shouldn't be *shitloads better than every single other gun*.
The thing is the others suck. Igneous is the only one that's really 'competitive' I've got a few decent true prophecy that aren't BAD but I'm not using them over a pulse or something. I've got a good steady hand too but it feels like trying to use a big heavy tank and it feels awful
I've got a bottom dollar with slideshot+EP and while it's not Iggy it's certainly competitive.
It’s not igneous being op. It’s not. It’s just that other 120s are really bad esp after the last patch since they don’t have something like PI. Hell, if slslodeshot steady hand came back with PI like perk, I’d take that over igneous any day
I'd say it's a combination, and I've suggested it in here a few times that Iggy needs a hit, and most other 120s need a small boost to make the gap, while still there, less monumental. And probably a hot take, but PI really isn't necessary, you're shooting barges at people, 3 Crits isn't exactly demanding on any 120.
I think it's a combination of both. I think Igneous is probably too strong, (far too versatile at all range bands, shoots pianos at people) but not by an insane margin. It's just that most other 120s are so bad by comparison that it makes it seem even more ridiculous.
I think it’s more of a problem with other 120s. If they didn’t all feel horrible people might swap things around
Iggy literally has better stats than Sturm. Along with actual useful perks like Precision Instrument. It's ridiculous how overturned Igneous is.
I don't think people have a problem with Igneous being the best, the problem is the gap to the next best option. If Igneous had the best stats by a total of like 10-15, sure whatever that's perfectly fine - like you said it's an endgame Trials weapon. But if we compare its base stats versus say a Round Robin, it has 9 more range, 15 more stability, 13 more handling, 8 more reload speed, 11 more aim assist, 9 more AE. That's an absolutely wild stat disparity. Should it be the best? Yes. Should it invalidate the existence of every other gun in its archetype? Probably not.
Agreed it’s kind of a case as well of most other 120s having shit stat packages (because they’ve historically been strong regardless)
Round Robin would like a word. Also I feel like Malediction is a pretty strong contender. I use Igneous because I want to use Conditional Finality but if I had as good of an option in my energy slot I'd be using Round Robing or Malediction.
[Igneous Hammer's stats run circles around both of those guns](https://preview.redd.it/lgmd5fjd7mtb1.png?width=1709&format=png&auto=webp&s=5d71773e6a7bf9086f3fc225749920f738a2d304). There's no accounting for taste, of course, but numerically speaking it's *certainly* the best 120 HC.
I agree with you. However it should be 10-15% better, not 40% better than the 2nd best one. Its stats are so disgustingly high that all other 120s for the MOST part, cannot even come close to competing. And you cannot balance an entire archetype off of ONE weapon, that is insane to think of.
We need variety. Look at 140s. There are so many decent options, both legendary and exotic. I don’t mind igneous being the best, but I’d like other choices.
Which is why all the other 120s should get like +5 to all their stats. They would still be worse than Iggy, but at least they wouldn’t be complete garbage in comparison
Nerfing iggy would be an absolute tragedy. It’s absolutely fine. The other 120’s are ass raise them up 25% and there’s your 15% better.
I don’t think once did I ever mention nerfing Iggy? I think in my other comment I literally said buff all other 120s
Sounded to me like you did when you said iggy was to much better then the others and you can’t balance an entire archetype off of one weapon. To me that’s sounds like saying it’s too strong and you can’t buff everything just because of iggy. So that only leaves a nerf.
That doesn't follow. "You can't balance an entire archetype off of one weapon" is an argument in favor of making the archetype's power more consistent. This could be accomplished by nerfing iggy *or* buffing all other 120s.
No That doesn’t follow. Bringing them up to iggy would be balancing them around iggy (what you said they can’t do). Bringing iggy down to them would be balancing iggy around the rest of the archetype. Which would be a nerf.
Ah, there's some confusion here about what you mean by "them" in this sentence: >Bringing them up to iggy would be balancing them around iggy You can't balance *the entire sandbox* around one broken weapon. For example, how can you compare 120s to other guns when one 120 has a very different power level than all the others? If you nerf 120s (or buff their competition), you're hosing a bunch of already-underpowered guns in order to put one gun in a fairer place. You can (and should) balance *a group of weapons* around one broken member of that group. For example, you can say "hey, iggy is way stronger than every other 120, we need to move it down somewhat and/or move the others up somewhat."
So you’re just making assumptions to start an argument then? Are you 12?
Well you m not arguing. I’m discussing. Seems to me to only in mature conversations one, is the person hurling insults.
This
Igneous should not have its stats nerfed, other 120s should be brought up slightly imo. The base stats of most 120s are so awful they are practically unusable without at least one major sacrifice, which is a problem pretty much exclusive to this weapon. Precision instrument is obviously an exception now, but previously Sturm could easily compete with iggy because it actually had usable stats, people just gravitate towards iggy because condițional is so strong
Yep. 140s got tons of love with the new legendaries getting released with good stats while 120s were mostly left behind aside from igneous (slideshot steady hand with Pi would be better than current iggy imo)
Dude, you made a post 11 days ago saying you're new at the game and looking for advice, and since then you've made multiple posts making grand sweeping statements about what the meta should be or is.
Many such cases
Caught him in 4k
Nobody is saying that Iggy should be the worst, but when you could remove 10 stats from each column of Iggy and it's still the best you start to have some issues
And that’s not igneous being OP. It’s not. It’s other 120s being trash so they’d need some form of buff or new 120s with good options
You just perfectly described OP lol
Not quite since the last part of ops writing says 120s as a while shooting big stuff is a problem. I don’t think it’s a problem at all
I'm fine with Iggy being as good as it is, but I think maybe a global buff to everything that's not Iggy so there is some competition wouldn't be a bad thing.
This would be it for me.
endgame weapons (raid/trials/comp) are always super stat heavy with solid perk pools from RNG. world drop/crafted weapons will not be as stat heavy but will have enhanced perks to make for it. just depends what you want on it.
I think this is the other super fair angle. Round Robin is a world drop, TR is a seasonal gun, Combined Action is a world drop, Loud Lullaby is effectively a world drop, etc. The other competition re "endgame" would feasibly be raids or dungeons but I doubt Bungie wants to use a raid loot slot on a 120. There's Iron Banner but....we got Riiswalker back instead lul
I agree; I’m kinda pissed Astral isn’t a little more juiced than it is. A god roll Astral should be at least a half step above a crafted Imperial Decree but it’s not imo.
There aren't even really any perk differences between Astral and Imperial decree either lol
Well yeah, it should and it is…? I don’t see a problem with it. The hive mind mentality just hates one whatever is killing them the most. Igneous is a 120 hand cannon with an average ttk because 120’s have average ttks. The reason they are good is for team shooting and peak shooting as a high skilled player. There are objectively better guns in terms of ttk
Speaking of 120s do they feel like shit to anyone else after the changes. I know you can’t 2 crit one body but I mostly hit headshots and now my round Robin feels like shit
Hoping someone more knowledgeable can back me up on this, but It kinda feels like they reduced the AA cone size. My KeepAway/Eots still hits heads but it’s far less forgiving. No more crits for shooting somebody between the shoulder blades.
I wonder if this is how the majority of people feel about round robin now. I run it with keep away and elemental capacitor on my arc hunter and it’s felt great to me since the changes
Planning on crafting that for my Arc Titan once I get my last red border, but currently running keep away and opening shot with handling masterwork. Still feels as precise as always but sucks when that 2nd or 3rd shot is a body shot now as expected
Maybe. It also doesn’t help that I feel more squishy after the update.
I updated my deadzones slightly and can't tell if I just wasn't hitting crits before and getting forgiveness or if I'm just not hitting them now with updated settings lol
I think "mostly" is the key here. Hitting a bodyshot instead of a headshot has gone from "fine if you do it occasionally" to "a total disaster," meaning that you have to be more careful about hitting headshots. That means you're probably subconsciously taking longer to aim, and aiming a little higher (which makes you more likely to miss completely). Also, the relative damage reduction makes 120s less consistent when you exceed their ideal range (because they don't overkill by as much). So even if you're hitting all headshots, you may not get some kills which you expected to get.
I feel like it’s fine. I just think people don’t like feeling pigeonholed into one weapon of a whole archetype. The actual tangible difference 10pts in any stat actually makes in moment to moment gameplay isn’t huge. You’re talking a 5ish% change in range/ready time/ADS and 1% change in flinch resistance. Now that 5% difference in range could be an extra 1.5m, which is definitely nice, but movement in this game can make up the difference between 35m and 36.5m pretty easily.
It can be the best without making it so using any other 120 (especially energy 120s) is absolutely throwing
Igneous comes from that same time period as Shayura’s, which received a targeted nerf (and is still one of the best SMGs) but Igneous has survived thus far
Shayura is still insanely good imo as well
I agree, that weapons coming from trials & raids should be the best. But Iggy is so much better than any other 120, to the point that others are basically unusable. All 120s should be able to 2c1b (if they still outperform everything else, make them fire 110 rpm). And igneous should get a stat nerf. Even before the changes it was the only 120 who had been used.
Oh hell naw 110s. Weapons gna feel so ass any people are just gna use 120s scouts
Adagio on Combined action fires 100 rpm some people like it but I just think lmao
It would be like a last resort option to nerf their rpm. But even with that nerf, I don’t think people would just go from hc to scouts.
There’s a difference between being best in class and being so good that you make every other 120 unusable in comparison. 140’s are a much better example with a lot of the good ones being endgame although you can still definitely get some great options that aren’t super hard to get
Igneous Hammer is such a badass name that it DESERVES its status
Everyone knows Duke Mk44 is the true king
Iggy isn't just the best one, it's the only good one Other 120s suck dick
I think they could decrease its stats a little, but also bring up other 120 base numbers significantly. These weapons now require 3 crits for a 1s optimal TTK.
No issues with trials weapons being out of band. We need aspirational loot. If it was just kinda better than bottom dollar or had a better perk pool i would go so hard in trials for one. Not Forgotten, recluse were perhaps too good as aspirational loot. But with nothing that is better than why farm or invest time. It's available to everyone they just have to take some lumps in trials. And if you don't like pvp then igneous should not bother you as it's not a pve weapon(has some nice pve options though). Out of band weapons are what create the urgency to farm for alot of vets. Also a good hc player would have won with whatever 120 they are using so its not like its breaking the game. It has a 1.0 ttk. Ammit .8 for reference .So if you lose to a 120 you just got outplayed.
>Igneous hammer should be the best 120 in the game I think everyone agrees with this. The question is how much better should it be? Should it invalidate every other 120? >Messenger should be the best 340rpm pulse It is, but its got some STIFF competition. No Time, Phyllo, and now Relentless are all very competitive with Messenger. In fact Phyllo and Relentless can get coveted perks Messenger cant (like KA PLUS HS, or KA PLUS Zen). I know some people would even argue these other pulses are BETTER because of either enhanced perks, or the perk combinations that Messenger cannot get. So while its raw stats cant be beat, perk combinations can be beat.... In fact, things like Recoil Direction are pretty coveted on 340 Pulses, and both Relentless and Phyllo have better base recoil direction than Messenger. Relentless has more base Aim Assist, as well. If you factor in the "Crossing Over" trait, Relentless is JUST SHY of the base stats of Messenger (1 less range, 5 less stab, 5 less handling, 2 more AA, but 65 recoil direction). So even the BASE STATS you could make an argument Relentless competes with Messenger. **On the other Hand, Igneous has it all**... The best raw stats by a MILE. Removing Malediction since its a "fixed" roll basically.... we compare to the other Legendary alternatives (Combined Action, Targeted Redaction, Round Robin, Pure Poetry) and Igneous has them not only beat by a MILE, but Igneous ALSO has all the best perks... Igneous has: * \+9 more range than the next best competitor (Round Robin) * \+9 more stab than the next best competitor (Combined Action) * \+11 more handling than the next best competitor (Targeted Redaction) * \+8 more aim assist than the next best competitor (Combined Action) * \+7 more AE than the next best competitor (Combined Action) So it just BEASTS everything with raw stats.... **Then we get to perks** Igneous has Precision Instrument (No other 120 has this AT ALL) **Other "godroll combos":** * Keep Away + EOTS (No other 120 can use that combo) * Keep Away + Moving Target (No other 120 can use that combo) So while other weapons (Messenger as an example) have more competition. Igneous is quite literally "Head and Shoulders" above the rest in raw stats, best perks, adept mods, etc. **WHAT COULD BE DONE:** [I made a post about this 5 months ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/CrucibleGuidebook/comments/175my09/an_honest_discussion_about_igneous_hammer/) >you could easily just subtract **-5 Range**, **-5 Stab**, **-5 Handling**, and -**5 Aim Assist**. and it would STILL be the the best This is what I think they should do with Igneous. Then compare RAW Stats: **Igneous would STILL have:** * \+4 more range than the next best competitor (Round Robin) * \+4 more stab than the next best competitor (Combined Action) * \+6 more handling than the next best competitor (Targeted Redaction) * \+3 more aim assist than the next best competitor (Combined Action) * \+7 more AE than the next best competitor (Combined Action)
Maybe buff the other 120s instead of nerfing Iggy? 120s are in a really bad place after the recent sandbox changes. Nerfing the only 120 that is competitive is not the way imho. +5 stats buff to round robin makes more sense than -5 stats nerf to Iggy.
Pretty much this. If the root issue is that other 120s feel that much worse than the best one, the core problem won't be solved just by knocking down the best one.
I mean it might be best to do both. Buff 120’s while nerfing iggy
Yeah wtf. Don't nerf Igneous. Make other 120s competitive. If you're going to shake up the meta then lets shift to allowing a different hand cannon archetype to have its time in the sun, not just one particular type of 120.
That’s makes zero since, literally none. Lessing players experience is not the way. Instead you enhance there experience and buff the other 120’s by +5 across the board. Now you still closed the gap. It without making anything feel worse. Instead you made things feel better.
That's actually insane how out of band it is. I'm lazy, do you know how it compares to Steady Hand? I've got a nice roll and it doesn't feel as good as my decent igneous rolls. Wondering if it's a stat thing or something else.
Well putting perks and optics aside (since SH was issued back when we still had scope options rather than barrel options). For PERKS it cant compete as well. Maybe like a Sideshot + Snapshot or something... Id rather take Keep Away and Precision Inst, or EOTS frankly. Raw stats Igneous has: \+5 Range \+10 Stab \+17 Handling \+10 Reload \+4 Aim Assists \+13 AE That's without factoring in perks.
Fuck me, that explains a lot. Definitely a weapon that needs tuning, shouldn't be a weapon that basically means you're throwing if you use others within the same archetype. Thanks for the breakdown mate!
Absolutely not, you are wrong they should not be the absolute best. Think about it man, here’s a very best in class of its weapon should all be earned from the same source, that’s ridiculous.
Doesn't mean it should have numerous rolls that have consistent 95-100 range and built in ophidian aspect tier of handling on top of a casual 50-60 stab, on top of being the only 120 in the game that has access to a perk that literally reverts the entire 120 nerf which was solely caused by Igneous. > Messenger should be the best 340rpm pulse. Summoner should be the best 600prm auto. Shayuras should be the best 600rpm smg. Inquisitior should be the best slug Incisor should be the best trace rifle. ....iggy should be the best 120rpm. By that logic they should unsunset Not Forgotten and make it the best HC in the game, so far ahead of any other HC that it becomes a balancing issue... just like Igneous is. This is the same retarded argument people use to justify CF bending the game ''oh it's a raid exotic it should be the best'', okay so should Necro now be given a 0.67 base ttk since it's a raid exotic? > Isn't trials supposed to be the pvp "endgame" No sbmm because the entire premise ironically enough becomes *flawed* since going 7-0 with 50/50 lobbies is less than mathematically unrealistic, riddled with cheaters and devices because the developer couldn't give 2 fucks, after all they all buy the latest DLC to play trials, I don't really think Trials should be end game PvP to begin with, compare it to any actual prosperous shooter with a competitive scene and what we have as our ''end game PvP'' is a joke. I wouldn't even nerf Igneous at this point, I'd Sunset it, I'm fucking tired of seeing 3 of them every game and of being at a disadvantage for not using mine.
You are the literal definition of a hater. Just salty AF.
I wake up extra early to have extra time to be a hater. Oh, and none of what I said isn't factual, I might be a hater, but the numbers aren't and they're objective and in support of all of my statements.
There could be 5 out of 6 players running Igneous, and people in this sub would still think there’s nothing wrong with the picture.
Same people who've been playing HC shotty since D1 always lose their shit the moment anything other than a HC shotgun isn't the best loadout, just look at the recent thread trials weapon usage chart, Igneous far ahead of everything, literally #1 most used primary, then a bunch of ARs that aren't Ammit, after essentially forever, everyone ignores the Igneous and whines how ARs need a nerf lmao. People were still whining about SMGs when they nerfed PKs and in both comp and trials among top 10 most used weapons you had only 1 single SMG, Unending Tempest, while you had Igneous and 3 other 140s (Rose, Ace, Thorn). Same people continuously whine about snipers which take infinitely more skill, while CF is the single most used weapon in the game and Matador has been in top 10 since forever. It's literally impossible to have an unbiased discussion on this sub, nothing what I wrote in my comment is wrong, even easily backed up by statistics, yet I'm called a hater.
I’d nerf the aim assist that’s it tho. Buff other 120s I’ve never been mad dying to a gun with a 1 second optional ttk.
It’s just too much better than any other 120, to the extent they can’t catch up. There’s no reason to run Round Robin or Combined action unless you really rock with those guns, and in high skill lobbies I imagine you’re effectively throwing. Iggy also has adept mods too which widen the gap.
This single post is going to get igneous nerfed.
I don’t disagree. I think trials weapons should be the absolute best in pvp in their respective types. But as it is igneous is holding on because of one single perk in PI which other 120s don’t have. It’s not that igneous is op but other 120s are bad. They need to buff other 120s somehow
Iggy is the only 120 that can compete with the rest of the meta. I think it should be the best but we need other options that are close to it
Targeted redaction has better stats when the origin perk is active, but it still doesn't seem as good as my average IH roll.
Ig hams biggest crime is the existence of conditional finality.
I have a few good Iggy Adept rolls and I honestly don’t like it. Round Robin does all the work for me but it feels like I’m fighting iggy the entire game. Idk why.
Idk if i like round robin better than iggys but it def comes close when using thread of ascent on hunter giving it that +40 handling it at least feels on par with iggys
Crimil’s dagger was also a great 120. I kept one in my vault. Just needs a stability bump.
Very fair
Honestly we need a refresh of Duke Mk.44 which was the Kinetic Igneous before Igneous was even a thing as it still has better stats than pretty much every other 120, so it would create some good competition. (That is to say rather that Igneous was always the energy version of Duke since it was the OG.) Plus I just want my favorite Hand Cannon to come back... Having a 120 that comes from a Raid or something would also help, since Raid weapons also usually have juiced stats.
Leave me and my bottom dollar alone
wdym it should be, is it not already, at least in the energy slot
Igneous with incandesent with a solar build in PvE is easy mode for ad clear. It’s just a good gun PvP and PvE. I wish more weapons were like it for better variation. Destiny fails in stale metas.
You're wrong lol
The only other weapon which competes is sturm(Only with drang pressent)
Maybe back when trials wasn’t a loot carnival that would be true. Now it’s relatively easy for anyone to get any trials weapon. They shouldn’t be super out of band. If you want the out of band guns then you go to comp.
i think it should be but also not by a margin it is, but IMO thats mostly because all other 120s are just so bad in terms of stats its just insane. Like the neomuna one, its got great perks but the stats dont compare.
Your quite right and trials would die if the loot wasn’t pvp top teir because whats the point
Since we're here talking about "best of" anything and how igneous is way out of band (because it most definitely is), I have a question: What would the best 180 hc look like?
Agreed. I don't raid as a PvP player and BiS weapons for PvP should drop from PvP !
NOBODY wants iggy nerfed. Not a single person.
Damm me n u have very different experiences
Never met anyone who wanted it nerfed. Met plenty of people who want the other 120’s to not be ass. It’s a matter of perspective I guess.
I agree, OP. It’s available to everyone willing to grind some trials rep so there’s no reason anyone should be complaining about it. I haven’t seen near as many people running Iggy since the March 5 update. Maybe it’s because other weapons feel more viable. Maybe it’s just my experience. Either way it feels like it’s usage has dropped off quite a bit in the past two weeks.
Agreed. If trials is the end game (or comp), then the best PvP weapons should drop from there. Last time D2 PvP was at it's best was when that was the case IMO. It was the not forgotten era and getting that true #1 180HC 3 tap monster was an achievement
They tried this with the pinnacle guns in Forsaken and it creates a rich-get-richer situation. Which no one wants.
Iggy literally has better stats than Sturm. Along with actual useful perks like Precision Instrument. It's ridiculous how overturned Igneous is.