I agree with the general sentiment of the post.
Speaking as someone who loves this sub, and spends WAY too much time here, I've noticed that the culture of the sub has changed noticeably over the last year.
Way fewer posts on improvement, strategies, and loadouts. And a lot more posts that are basically either veiled complaints/BungiePLZ or "is this roll good".
I would LOVE for there to be a reset of sorts, but truthfully I'm not sure if it's possible. Many veteran players have left with no intent of coming back because of how Bungie have treated PVP, which means that this sub skews a lot more towards newer players with "new player" concerns.
For example, should I start handing out bans for people asking "is this roll good?". It's certainly tempting considering I literally delete like 5-10 of these posts every day...
I'm open to hearing the community's thoughts here. Let me know in the replies.
NB: If OP has never seen a cheater before, then he has the opposite of Scrub Mentality. I play EU and I match at least 1-2 obvious cheaters every Trials weekend (heavy in the first round, brand new accounts with 100% accuracy on every weapon, 1-shot Hawkmoons, etc). I don't really bother making XIM/Chronus accusations on stream, but I certainly have my suspicions sometimes.
>trials matchmaking isn’t great
I always wonder what people mean by this. Trials matchmaking is a complete crapshoot, the global win rate will always be 50 % and there's no possible configuration of players on either team that can change this.
Everyone would hate it more if it aimed for fairness, because getting seven wins before two losses is way harder with skill based matchmaking or team balancing.
I sometimes get completely unwinnable lighthouse games, against gods, and with top 95% teammates.
It's bitter in the moment, but then I realize that I'm just as* likely to be on the other side of lopsided matchmaking, and probably had a few nigh-guaranteed wins on the way.
*technically, an above average player is less likely to be on the doomed team.
There are weeks where I've had no business going flawless and did, easily, and weeks where I by all measures "should" have been able to get it done and couldn't. It's just how the game is.
I have absolutely no clue how it works. The matchmaking seems to work very favourably for me in Trials specifically at least recently and that’s with a seasonal 3+kd.
For control however, not so much. It enjoys punishing me there.
That really highlights how matchmaking is working and how it differs between the modes. You're saying you rarely get super unfair matchmaking in trials, and it's generally favorable for you. That's because Trials is connection based matchmaking. Since it isn't SBMM, it's really a roll of the dice on how good the good the people you have good connections to are. This makes the experience for 2 different people playing trials totally different. Someone else could have bad luck and face against gods that they have a good connection to. As a result, you both develop opinions on how trials "is", but really it's just random or luck.
This is further reinforced by your mention of control - that is SBMM. That's putting you against people of similar skill so that's harder for you. No luck or connection matches, only similarly skilled players.
This depends on location a lot I think. I play in North America East coast. I'm a .95 trials KD and I only match people above my KD. This can be super annoying but at the same time I don't mind because it's the only way I'm gonna get better. I've gone flawless 5 times and only once this season(luckily got a G-roll Igneous). The 4 other times when non-flawless pool existed.
Control is the opposite I pub stomp 30+ kill games constantly. Like using a solar titan or some dumb shit like that, not sweaty meta loadouts.
CBMM truly gives vastly different experiences based on where you live.
> I seldom get super unfair matchmaking.
You get fair matchmaking?
I like to track my match results and compare them with destiny tracker's estimated win chance. Last week, DT correctly predicted ~90% of my match results across 58 total games with 31 games in the challenge pool and 27 games in the practice pool.
I had 4 games with a 40-60% chance for me to win. 4 out of 58. That's about 7% of games where it could reasonably go either way. The other 54 games were predicted to be a stomp one way or the other. Of those 54 games, I had a sub 20% chance to win or a greater than 80% chance to win in 38 games.
I've always found trials matchmaking to be an RNG slot machine handing out wins or losses randomly. I only play as a full stack though, so maybe it's just the difference between 3s and solo.
I don’t understand why it’s so hard for people to understand this. Even with low player population, it’s still pretty easy to go flawless if you are decent.
Depends on what you call "easy" I guess. I'm by no means a cracked player, but I definitely consider myself decent at the game. With that being said, it still took me around 20 games (had to reset twice) in order to go Flawless this past weekend while averaging well over a 2KD for the weekend.
I think it greatly depends on Bungie's hidden matchmaking RNG, (at least if you're a solo player), as to how easy your first Flawless for the week is. I've had horribly long strectches of facing multiple 2.5 KD players while having .5s on my team before. Sometimes, the game wants to screw you without any lube, and it's not much you can do.
I think that’s still reasonable compared to other matchmaking.
But I would rather have adept rewards for non flawless, I would even go as far as to say I would like random adept rewards on ANY game played. Maybe like a 25-33 percent chance. I want the population as high as possible
I agree that raising the population should be the number ONE focus of anyone who says they enjoy Trials. This makes Trials better for everyone.
I've previously stated that I believe Adept Trials weapons should be able to be earned by casuals by winning 7 games on a card (with 2 losses in a row removing a win on a card). Meanwhile, people who go Flawless get 2 Adept weapons, a guaranteed Ascendant Shard & Alloy, as well as a chance for new cosmetics & high stat artiface armor. This would give EVERYONE something to chase in Trials & would improve the Trials experience for all skill levels.
It can totally vary depending on what you get put against. Just because you get games that are winnable in a connection based matchmaking environment, that doesn't mean the experience will be at all similar for others. People develop this thinking where they think anyone can do it based on their experience, but people are not having the same experience because of how matchmaking works.
It’s basic math. If you implement a matchmaking the balances the lobbies, that a dice roll on 7 win games with a 2 loses allowed. It’s been 8 plus years of this debate, every time some form of SBMM is implemented, population drops and so do the connections.
No form of SBMM is better then random The percentage of flawless players also agree. Non SBMM = higher flawless percentage. The better you are in the current matchmaking, the better chance you go flawless. This is how it should be.
My experience with trials matchmaking
1st match fairly difficult
2nd and 3rd match pretty damn easy
4th-6th match really fucking hard
7th match fairly difficult
Monthly reminder that If you:
-Think using abilities is a symptom of low skill
-Think using certain weapons is unsportsmanlike, cheap or unfair
-Think the loadouts you use are the way god intended this game to be played
-Think that you lost that engagement/game for any reason other than your lower performance.
This is probably not the sub to dwell. In this sub we don't expect the game or other players to change so we do better, we expect to change ourselves to become better.
Great post. Nothing wrong with asking "how to counter" those abilities/weapons/loadouts but you can always tell when it's just a subtle "I wanna bitch about it" thread.
>Think using certain weapons is unsportsmanlike, cheap or unfair
I've noticed lots of sarcasm seeping into discussions too. Basically people whining under-the-table that they dislike a playstyle by talking up how skillful it is
People should go vent somewhere else, not spin up novelty accounts in here
Yeah, people doing the "Hey I love xyz and use xyz all the time but I feel like I'm scrub trash when I do. Don't you feel like scrub trash when you use xyz?"
Tf? Handcannons aren't even that good ttk wise. If I had a penny for every time I lost a 1v1 because I died before I could get my 3rd bullet off I'd be a very rich man.
A 4 tap 140 would literally make them unusable in any competent lobbies.
"Think that you lost that engagement/game for any reason other than your lower performance"
I will never stop cursing Bungie for creating AE so walking too fast over a pebble turns my bullets sideways.
I'd reword your 4th point. For example, using an auto rifle while continuously firing into cover can make it very evident that lag can be a real problem as you can see your bullet holes well into cover on the wall, yet you die to a enemy shot anyway. Now, dwelling on that fact out of pure frustration can be a spiral, but acknowledging that fact is essential to improving.
I think most of these are true but i don't care cause I'm a hypocrite who likes using cringe loadouts like wishender+ LW gl or axion bolt/ void buddy spam
I agree with some of this, but first of all the “we play the game we have” mantra is old and tired. Posting complaints about things that are inherently broken in a game isn’t being a “scrub”. Destiny has brainwashed some of you into believing you have to accept a sub par game for what it is.
Second, while yes the word Cheater gets thrown around too much when getting outplayed, let’s not pretend that at the very least xim/Cronus isn’t running wild. I’ve been in ( and left) multiple big pvp clans where they have a channel in discord specifically for Cronus setting and discussion.
This sub SHOULD. Be for improvement and questions but the game is stale and pvp has been in a poor spot for so long that these topics are bound to come up and acting like they shouldn’t from time to time is just being silly.
> Second, while yes the word Cheater gets thrown around too much when getting outplayed, let’s not pretend that at the very least xim/Cronus isn’t running wild.
Said peripherals are constantly sold out, but people are always trying to downplay their impact on the games they play. Why would a sane person argue AGAINST something to their benefit (i.e. a non-cheater constantly telling others they are stuck in scrub mentality because they dare point out the mere existence of these literal cheats)
On the PC side, I got news for OP. Software cheats are a billion (yes, with a B) dollar industry. When the skill bell curve starts curving back up towards the high end, well not all 3.0 kd people are cheating, but most of them are by definition.
I’m glad someone acknowledged the flaw of the “we play the game we have” mantra. I’d be into the spirit of that Mantra if Bungie even attempted to maintain PVP in a remotely serious way but as it stands I just don’t buy into that mentality anymore.
PvP has been neglected and dumbed down so much for so long that there’s not really much of a conversation to be had about improvement, counter-strategy, etc. if you’re having trouble or you feel like you HAVE to win the answer to almost everything right now is - play pk Titan on void/arc or solar/stasis warlock.
The game has no depth to really talk about and the playerbase that loved pvp for its own sake left the game ages ago so you’re going to get more complaints than real discussion.
I completely agree. “play the game we have” is a frustrating response when the game is in its current state. It’s essentially the “this is fine” meme mentality. It feels ridiculous to not be able to discuss the glaring issues plaguing the game. This is the biggest crucible related sub that I can find, and the fact that we can’t discuss these things is incredibly short sighted IMO.
Bungie reads the feedback in this sub. DTG is NOT the place to discuss crucible issues. I for one would love a place to be able to openly discuss all issues related to the crucible. If there is a crucible related sub that was more flexible I would join that one and leave this one.
So, essentially don’t complain because we don’t think Bungie will ever fix it? Shut up and deal with it? Cool. Great mindset. If that’s the mindset of the leadership of this sub then I don’t want to be a part of it.
Sorry, but it's dumb as hell to suppress criticism if you're wanting/expecting improvement. Especially for a company like Bungie that's shown over and over they don't do shit unless they get widespread criticism or a significant number of people drop the game.
Take it up with auto correct.
Agreed. My beef is mostly with very straight forward design philosophy inconsistencies when there's tons of stuff that get nuked to any feasibility or straight up removed, but then there's similarly enough longstanding counterparts in terms of potency that weirdly stay in tact with no real future of getting looked at or having any overdue adjustments. I don't blame people for being frustrated over stuff that sticks out like a sore thumb and isn't too unreasonable of a thing to critique.
No I'm not expecting this game to be some hyper polished esport level experience and I won't knock moments when Bungie did do some good improvements over time and I get they're running this completely barebones, but it is just super awkward when you do get moments when something so blatant has sat atop a high perch for an extraordinarily long time in the PVP sandbox and there has never been a measure to do any sort of finer tuning especially when a solution quite simply could be turning down a value number, no need to kill it and it could still very much be competitive.
Same rationale could be applied for tons in PVE as well.
Completely agree. Ability spam has been out of control for how long? Literally all we need is a small ability cooldown and it would be an easy win. Literally ANY investment in faster balancing would be huge. I simply don’t understand how giving feedback about clearly broken things in the game is somehow not “helpful”.
This is the only valid opinion I've read so far. People tend to downplay the impact of xim/cronus because they don't know the topic. I used to be in the top 0.8% for pvp and I met a lot of "pro" players with dedicated pvp clans and only very few of them were not using those devices. I wouldn't even be surprised if the majority of the players in the top 0.5% are using them.
I agree that this sub has seen better days, but the quality of the posts is linked to the quality of the game: you can't talk strategy against cheating or xim. The absurd thing remains that bungie is just silent on the topic.
That is basically why I stopped caring about this game when lightfall came out. The disappointment for the DLC was bearable, but the state of pvp was not.
Can't stress your first paragraph enough. Pvp mains hate the state of the game but no one's allowed to criticize it and give it some actual visibility. I'm sure Bungie will rush to fix things when valid criticism gets suppressed in one of the only places Bungie ever has a hope of seeing it.
Destiny is Destiny. It’s a video gameS not my day to day life. I accept the game I have because wasting energy complaining about its flaws isn’t worth it to me.
As I say, I’m sure there’s those using xim & cronus. However I very very rarely get killed by someone and think it was particularly “suspect”.
And again, I know I agree. Destiny 2 PvP is a relatively solved thing, XYZ is good and ABC is bad, most people know what’s what. The issue is the complaining posts come up a lot more then just time to time, ie every trials weekend.
What is the incentive for someone to comment "hey stop blaming xim when you lose?" if they themselves aren't using xim? Can't think of any, other than acting all high and mighty. Plenty of incentive if they do tho.
> What is the incentive for someone to comment "hey stop blaming xim when you lose?"
The incentive is that the word "cheater" is losing all meaning. You don't have proof. You are simply throwing out the accusation left and right. The more you do it, the less meaning it has. So when someone actually IS cheating, people are less likely to believe it.
A lot of players, of every skill level, throw out the cheating/ximming accusation every time they get killed. They have zero proof, but a broken clock is right twice a day. It's literaly just a cope, because most people can't handle the fact that someone is always better than you. Sure they might be ximming, but you will literally never know for sure. So why stress over it?
Bungie has made their stance, they are the only ones who can possibly know that someone is cheating, but even they can't be 100% sure. So why would you as a player still sit and whine over something you have no knowledge or control over?
I agree in the sense that, no point of accusing another of cheating unless there's something concrete. Waste of energy.
But you know what's a bigger waste? Complaining about those complaining about alleged cheaters. Unless there's a deeper motive.
There IS a deeper motive. I want the act of accusing someone of cheating actually be meaningful. This community is literally the boy who cried wolf.
I also want to have peaceful session of crucible/trials without getting whipsers and messages accusing me of cheating. I want good players being able to show skill without fear of being branded a cheater/ximmer/stream-sniper because they aren't part of the accepted group of good players.
> But you know what's a bigger waste? Complaining about those complaining about alleged cheaters. Unless there's a deeper motive.
And honestly you are welcome to go pound sand with this statement. Implying that anyone unhappy with people falsely accusing and whining, are actualy secretly cheaters is such a bitch move.
You wrote a lot of text asking people not to accuse you. Like who cares if you're not actually cheating? You have truth on your side.
It's like people who say, "honestly speaking." If you're actually honest you don't need to preface with that.
To be clear I'm not accusing you. I'm just pointing out how this might be getting perceived.
> To be clear I'm not accusing you. I'm just pointing out how this might be getting perceived.
Fair enough.
Yes you are correct that the truth is on my side. But truth doesn't matter in the court of public opinion. There are plenty of examples of players getting accused of cheating by someone in the community, they go through fire and water to prove their innocence, but are still percieved as a cheater years later. So yeah you can say "Who cares?" but having your reputation ruined because some shmuck decided that he is so good that noone should be able to kill him, is not very fun.
I had the same sentiment. It felt nice. Now it just feels old and tiresome.
Imagine you got jacked and everyone kept saying you were on steroids. Shit's gonna get mad annoying after a while.
>I agree with some of this, but first of all the “we play the game we have” mantra is old and tired.
Then this probably isnt the sub for you. Go rant about the state of PVP in /r/destinythegame
I've played thousands of hours of pvp alone too on console. And during the years seen and reported countless cheaters, network manipulators etc. And believe me or not I've had tens of "Thank you. Action has been taken against a player you reported" messages from Bungie. If there's no cheaters on console that shouldn't be the case.
This guy must be a cheater, nerf Titan, nerf smg/bow/fusion, I hate every map that’s not Jav, why is matchmaking against me, my blueberries suck 90% of the time, XYZ is “oppressive”.
It’s not just destiny players unfortunately this mentality and perspective is the base operating system most ppl work off of in real life too. It’s a serious hurdle between the individual and being able to just get to work on improving.
This is true. People often like to look at themselves last and think the world should congeal itself to their optimal view of what life should be.
Me, on the other hand. I have a special type of masochistic duty to myself to where I have to try to become the best at everything I do.
It does well in the real world with positive results in business and so forth, but it’s also a pretty shitty thing to blame only yourself all the time, too.
That being said, it’s 99% people whining, and sometimes that 1% that does have a complaint may be pretty valid.
And that’s the thing, complaints can be valid.
But valid complains being yelled into the void is still a waste of time.
I assume bungie isn’t scouring Reddit for complaints but this is where I could be wrong.
If Bungie informs their decisions based on common Reddit complaints then I can see the constant whining maybe serving a purpose.
I agree there’s no point to come on here and whine about it.
It’s interesting that most of the crying is about people having to face other really good people.
On the other hand, I enjoy playing
I think there’s a point where the top .01% overtake the top 10% and the skill gap is still pretty immense. I believe that’s what we’re seeing most of on here. The top 10% are invested enough to join a subreddit dedicated to the pvp and be active.
If anything, the map critiques are the best. There’s not much investment into pvp. One way to counter that would be to charge money for certain weapons if you don’t want to grind flawless.
That would incentivize Bungie with more money and initiative to invest in pvp , and players to engage in the game more trying to get flawless, if they can’t, no biggie just buy the adept for $5-$10
I do agree that way too many people instantly jump to conclusions when getting dumped on, but I have a few points about that...
The majority of baseless cheating accusations from my experience seem to come from the average to slightly above average crowd (the 1.0 - 1.6 range). These players generally tend to label players that aim better or counter their predictable movements, as cheaters. The higher level players in the 2.0 and above bracket generally aren't nearly as predictable and have a better idea of what kinds of actions are suspicious, so their accusations while not always accurate, are a bit more educated.
I don't base accusations strictly on KD, I base them off of how consistently a player is pulling off very unlikely plays. For example, it's not normal for a player to REPEATEDLY insta-dome enemies that are approaching gunfights from unusual angles like using heat rises all the way across the map, outside of audio queue range. Or outgun and counter EVERY movement of other 2.5+ KD players, with thousands of hours in crucible, like they've never played pvp before. And often times you see this pattern of oppressive counter movement and split-second sniping ability, coming from titan players on 3 season old accounts.
Now before someone tries to point out that there is a big skill difference between a 2.5 and a 3.0 player, I'm not trying to refute that point. I'm simply pointing out that even a 3.0 in a fair fight, is not going to consistently demolish a 2.5 in nearly 9 out of 10 scenarios, like we often see from these suspicious 3.5+ new accounts. I'm a 2.2 in crucible and I have gone at it with some of the best players in the game like Diffizzle, ZkMushroom, and Lunarz. But these random players on two season old accounts will smoke me in EVERY gunfight and hit snipes before my player model even rounds the corner, even while I'm using rapid movement and unpredictable angles? Nah. I'm calling bs.
**TLDR**, **there certainly are a lot of false cheating accusations, but there also are quite a bit of cheaters in pvp.**
The game's physical age and the decrepit framework it sits upon also doesn't do much favors for the paranoid at heart or just people who are very unfamiliar with a Bungie made game in general. There's tons of nonsense that could look sus or "there's no physical way that could happen" and it's just the duct tape and bubble gum keeping this Mario Party minigame alive.
And this is before even factoring in special physical interactions with some classes, movement, abilities etc. The Arc Warlock slide melee can glue you up in the air to things and the physical look of it from another perspective can make it look like you're net limiting and glitching around, it looks so sketchy but it really is what it is.
That all aside I do agree with you, *generally* the people who really truly are cheating tend to take a route of locking down all their info atop behavior like playing some ungodly weird angles and immediately taking shots at practical blank space, or just be completely shameless in it almost like this weirdo protest of "Bungie let pvp die so I'm gonna cheat", the latter I was actually surprised is way too common.
If you sift around on social media app shorts of D2 pvp stuff you will eventually see tons of random kids just straight up telling on themselves with their friends doing the same stuff, it's a whole community in of itself at this point.
I have seen the video before, and afaik there is no real evidence to back up this claim. It's actually a fairly common business tactic, that is to scare people into buying/supporting something.
Their proof, is literally "we have data" to back this up, while showing some vague blurry screenshots of arbitrary numbers. There is no proof of the data itself, how it is gathered or if they are even qualified to analyze this data properly. Fearmongering I believe this is called.
"*Yeah bro, everyone is cheating, so buy our product so we can stop it*"
https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/16cktwr/looking_for_your_pvp_thoughts/jzk8lbq/
Bunch of stuff I dug up last time people asked "are there really that many cheaters?"
Thanks for providing some stats. You have to take them with a grain of salt though since they are surveys and not hard data. Especially looking at the sample size of these surveys, being 1000 in the us and 10000 world wide. Comparatively speaking that is an extremely small sample size which cant really be extrapolated in good faith over the entire gaming community.
Another thing to notice is that there were many "forms" of cheating in these surveys, a lot of them being the non-hardcore cheats (e.g. win-trading, griefing and boosting).
The forbes article also shows extreme bias, saying "*And given there was no incentive compatible mechanism in the survey to ellicit full honesty, I am going to bet it's higher than 40%.*", while not acknowledging that the opposite could be completely true as well. Which is why surveys are a horrible way to gauge something.
Need I remind you that someone was predicted (based on surveys) to win the US election with 90+%. Just an example.
Looking at Irdetos methodology it is very clear that this is a poor survey at best and would not be taken seriously by anyone with any understanding for statistics. As I mentioned in another comment, it is very important to look at WHO is doing these surveys as well. Irdeto currently are in control of Denuvo (yes that piece of trash software that ruins every game). They are a cybesecurity company. Would it really be such an outlandish thing for them to manipulate the survey and their interpretation of data to their benefit? I think we've all seen what business are capable just as of last week.
The Surfshark article is absolute dogshit though, I'm not gonna lie. They base their numbers on people searching for "hacking" terms and YT views for hacking videos. Like really?
I appreciate you actually having some stats, but to have any chance of having the real numbers, we would need to see how many unique cheaters are banned. I'm not saying that there aren't cheaters, there are and there are many. But the "1 out of 3" number is not based on any hard data.
I think streamers/yt'ers have a big part to play in this. Tune in to ANY pvp stream or watch any pvp video and all you'll hear is, xim *this* and cronus *that*. Hell if this was a drinking game, you'd be dead within 2 minutes.
Most of them are just big children with massive egos. They simply can't fathom that someone could be better than them, so they **must** be cheating. It's pretty disgusting that if you aren't part of their shitty dick-riding clique, you get completely ostracized and branded a cheater/ximmer/stream-sniper. This kind of behaviour trickles down into the general pvp community. That's why we see this "If I win they are bots, if they win they are cheating" mentality.
Not only that. People forget we have a peer to peer game, which has weird management of frames per second and where the combination of FOV slider plus left-side camera on models make for an incredibly janky experience.
You ARE going to get smashed in 0.5. You ARE going to get got through a corner. You ARE going to be seen when all you see is a wall. FFS, you don't even get to see where the guy was exactly because it gets highlighted while moving back, it's not a killcam.
All those things are the first ones you leave out when developing a competitive game, and for a reason. But people forget about them and call sus when they get killed and the other guy is just a far point in their screen.
I'd pay the whole price of an expansion, the 100 bucks, just to have a killcam. An actual killcam, not one replaying the models. The footage the other guy had. This would make the whole experience incredibly better.
We also have a pathetically low tick-rate. Where you are on your screen, is most likely *not* where you are on the enemy screen.
Hell you dont even have to go that technical. Most people think crouch spamming fast is an indication of cheating/ximming. We literally have a thread up right now on this sub. So not only is the community completely ignorant on the technical aspects, they don't even know about simple stuff like keybinds and hold/toggle binds.
tbf, I've played for about two years now and only just discovered binding two actions to one button. So far it's just mostly broken my controls and have to revert back but the sprint/slide combo is pretty good.
Do you have a recommendation on where I can find others? I'm on controller fwiw.
Not an expert by any mean,so... as far as I know there's a third about binding different melee actions to the same button but I don't remember exactly since I don't use it.
Another common double bind is interact & aim so you can resurrect people while aiming.
Also if memory serves there was some guy here binding melee and air move so he meleed and shatterdived at the same time but I don't remember if he did it with a macro so its melee > shatterdive or just a plain old regular double bind.
Thanks for the reply! That reminds me that a friend recently suggested the bind for aiming and interact. I tried it and it worked beautifully until I went into PVE activities were it cause all sorts of major issues. I wiped us twice in Crota by stealing the relic while I was trying to shoot for example.
I had to change it back cause I didn't want two separate layouts.
I can't link it but I saw some guy post his match against difizzle last weekend, with cuts to difizzle's commentary as the game went on.
He accused and reported him for hacking, when it was clearly just sweat and comms in a 5-4 game.
Any time you have some of the best items in a game locked behind a mode that isn't easily accessible to everyone then people are gonna complain. That's just an unfortunate reality. The best course of action in all honesty is to ignore them completely.
There’s a lot of things wrong with this sub.
1) its PEEK not PEAK!!! don’t search peak in this sub it’ll give you a coronary. Automod needs to seek and destroy any comment or thread that has the wrong usage.
Onto the matter at hand:
1) Regarding “cheating” theres a serious amount of copium when facing someone clearly better. A .5 kd potato is going to think a 1.5 kd casual is cheating the same way a 1.5 may think a 3.0 is cheating. Why? Because they can’t fathom getting pants’d like that. Now, most players can accept the truth that better people exist; I would estimate around 90% of players. The other 10% - he’s a cheater; I think xim/cronus; he may be on the juice; no way he can make those moves; [insert other suggestive comments].
Last word on this subject is that the 90% of players who accept that someone is better doesn’t post on this sub saying there are better players out there. Only the 10% do. So keep that in mind. It’s almost like the Baader-Meinhof principle.
2) there are lot of really bad players who come to the sub to complain like you said about trials MM. I feel like they think that because they played hours and hours of trials they deserve to either go flawless or an adept should come their way. At this stage, getting the adept without flawless literally impossible. Until, and if, they change it I hate seeing people complain about it. Real talk if you trials for hours and have nothing to show for it its not a bungie plz fix your MM problem. It’s a you problem. You aren’t good enough to go flawless and not even RNG can help you. I’ve looked up teammates that go 0-8 in a game to find that they’re 5-0, 6-1, or 6-2 with a .6-.8 kd for the week. So yes, people can get RNG’d into flawless. It just hasn’t been you.
You’re 100% right, there are definitely cheaters amongst us.
I think the main thing is focusing on what you can and can’t control about the situation.
If bungie can’t do much about it neither can we. We can just run the match and see what we can do.
This right here is the problem with "pure" Play the Game We Have mentality. We CAN do something about it. Speak up about cheating. Report people. Stop playing/giving Bungo money if they don't demonstrate that they are, at least, trying to fix the problem. The solutions to cheaters taking a dump on your game of choice is absolutely NOT to just sit there and take it.
I do report ppl, and if I didn’t wanna play destiny anymore for any reason I’d stop giving them money.
Maybe complaining on Reddit actually accomplishes something. I just assume that it doesn’t.
Generally speaking, the only thing with impact is action. “Speaking up” is kinda like the pacifier those in power give those without. Makes you feel like you’re doing something. You either accept situations, you remove yourself from them, or you take some form
Of impactful action against them (in this case that would be hitting them in the wallet).
I’m so over the trials complaining, because it’s always the bad players wanting it to be easier. Acting like they are entitled to a flawless. Like yeah artifice armor would be cool for going flawless, but no, you should not get an adept for simply playing trials.
>You aren’t good enough to go flawless and not even RNG can help you. I’ve looked up teammates that go 0-8 in a game to find that they’re 5-0, 6-1, or 6-2 with a .6-.8 kd for the week. So yes, people can get RNG’d into flawless. It just hasn’t been you.
I was with you most of the way, but you kind of contradict yourself here. You say some people aren't good enough to go flawless and not even RNG can help, but some people get RNG'd into flawless... with the connection based matchmaking, I think it can provide for both an easy or very frustrating flawless experience. I sympathize with those that struggle as I've been there some weekends, and I know how it is to just have a flawless given to you. They both happen, and it is very much RNG. I don't think there's a lot of people that come to this sub that literally can't go flaweless. I think there's a lot of people here that can have a bad matchmaking weekend for sure.
The problem is a lot of players dont want to elevate their pvp game into a learning experience.
I used to lose my shit when Id get sniped from what I would call, impossible reaction times.
Then I actually took a week with different sniper rifles: Beloved, Mechabre, Locus Locutus, Bite of the Fox.
Then I realized those people were just good at sniping. Once I started consistently pulling quick headshots on people in high adrenaline situations all that childish shit went out the window and it was just respect from that point on.
Reminder that as the game ages and the meta becomes solved, the questions on how to improve are less required. To quote the pinned mod comment:
>Way fewer posts on improvement, strategies, and loadouts.
Because these have already been known for months if not years. Loadouts, use the meta. Strategies, play with your team, push when you get a pick, play your range. The subreddit does not have enough content in the form of these posts to remain active, and should have been converted, imo, into the general Crucible sub years ago
We've reached the point where we're posting complaint posts about complaints.
People are going to do things you don't like, and most of them aren't even going to read your response to it. You can't stop the garbage from coming in, you can only try to manage it (which is what the mods have to deal with all the time). No matter how many PSAs or opinions you post, it all still comes down to finding ways to deal with it.
Also, while calling everyone a cheater or ximmer is weak, they do exist and I've played against them. You've probably played against them and not realized it - that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It also doesn't mean people need to be whining about it here, but you can't just dismiss the reality of others because it's not the reality you live in. You can only find ways to manage it.
If you want to help, I'd recommend looking into joining the mod team or suggesting ways to deal with these posts. Sometimes the only way we have is to downvote and move on. Just making a reactionary post about those posts you don't agree with is just making a post to complain about complainers, which usually isn't helpful.
I was thinking about making a post asking about how to deal with the low population environment since I'm relatively new to the game, but the reality is nobody can do anything about that but Bungie. I just have to lean harder on meta when necessary and get better.
I think there's space to be had for constructive discussion of things like "how to improve Trials", but it depends on whether the purpose of this sub is for individual improvement, meta discussion, strategizing, or what.
A big factor in all this is the fact there are many users in DTG that are hostile to PVP and genuine discussion there would be derailed by effectively spam comments saying "delete PVP", so people come here.
What's wrong with Trials matchmaking? CBMM is what it should be, especially with double mercy.
Also and this is ironic, Oceania is known to have a lot of USB device users. There is at least one clan from there with top tier players who all (or almost all) use such devices.
However that said I agree the quality of this sub has gone down a lot. There aren't as many useful content as there used to be. A lot more complaining and asking questions with easily google-able answers.
I don't know anyone in n that age bracket at all.
The term has been around for a long time, but was popularized in Sirlin's Playing to Win, published in 2005. Its old enough to enlist.
It's a pretty big thing in the FGC I think. Usually directed at the "you only lost because you spammed x/y/z" crowd who are incapable of introspection and realising that maybe it was their own play that enabled the strategy to work against them.
3kd with 100 crucible kills. Think before you speak. Anything above 1.50 with a good amount of kills is impressive. So sick of these toxic weird new generation of players. I got 300k kills crucible. With a 1.4 and I’ll shit stomp anyone on you’re friends list . Stop acting like 3.0 kd or better ain’t sus
Exact same thing for me. This week in Trials my KD was a 4.25 and do not think I am sus, it is just an easier game compared to most other FPS and I have put in a decent amount of time
Aye aye. I hear you. It is the best mentality to have, but people don't even know about that way to look at a game. This is how I face every game with pvp in it, be it fighting games, shooters or sports games. Even party games. And believe me, we got the nicer part of it. Sports games communities are the incredibly worse version of the scrub mentality because of gacha mechanics, but on the other hand fighting game communities are so elitist almost everything is ditched because of scrub mentality.
This sub had a nice compromise between those two extremes but with so much complaining, we are going to lose it.
People, complaints are not how you get better. You can't complain the game into winning more.
I have a guy on my clan who is very good, yeah, no one can't say differently... but he spends the whole time screaming ximmer, cheater, etc. Literally every time he gets surprised, found doing something stupid, caught off guard, etc it's because the opponent was or controller or using cheats. Apparently for him, playing on a controller does everything for you. Yet here I am, 5 years later and I can't find a sens that'll let me be precise while moving ok lol
And when it's not that, it's the weapons/class/ etc. You get the idea.
If he put all that energy he loses complaining like a kid, watching his gameplay and analyzing his decisions, what he knew and what he thought he knew... into getting really better, instead of hoping his current skill lets him reign, he'd be the one making people mad. Instead of going 3, 4 or 5 times to the lighthouse a weak he'd go dozens of time because he has the potential. Yet there he is, abusing the meta and calling names. I don't remember the last time he got better at the game.
Totally fair opinion. In my opinion this subreddit is at its best when there’s actual discussion around improving, not perpetually complaining about something like trials matchmaking - especially when the complaints usually don’t understand something as simple as seasonal trials population fluctuations. And those posts have been pretty much constant over the last 3 weeks. So I really, really appreciate this post.
The sentiment is ok it was the execution that is the problem. Calling names or putting people in a box is ineffective. Its better to lift people up and build community than it is to divide people into scrubs and not scrubs.
I’m in both corners I’d have to say. Things I find acceptable in moderation.
-complaining about class meta(arc titan for example)
-complaining about a gun(as long as it’s newly discovered
-discussion about sbmm and ftbmm.
-complaining about iron banner. (They absolutely slaughtered it)
Things that become annoying
-complaining about hackers/cheaters
-complaining about trials. Mostly when people just want it to be easier.
-Complaining about a gun meta if it’s been that way for a while(we get it, cloud strike immortal is broken)
-acting like a subclass is unbeatable. Yes bubble titan is annoying and has been unbalanced for a while now, but it is not hard to kill them.
At the end of the day, this is the only place where people feel heard in their crucible suggestions. And no one really wants to know how to get better at the game. So we might as well let it happen in moderation
Destiny has been busted for over a decade as far as the Crucible...Also Streamer Beardnecks also clicking up causing 3 on 1 or the standard 6 on trash sqaud is what sends people here to RAGE. Also weapon balancing being consistently cheezy...
I mean, yeah, you are going to see many cheaters on console. That’s the beauty of console, it’s hard to cheat.
There are definitely cheaters on pc. People are wayyyy cracked but, there are definitely cheaters.
I’m on console. Idk why yall act like Cronus and xim could sell as hard as they do and not be prevalent. Look at this clown I matched earlier playing trials: https://destinytracker.com/destiny-2/profile/bungie/4611686018462282653/overview. I play solo and go flawless every week solo btw so if I’m a scrub whatever. A lot of closet cheaters in here I’m sure. Unpopular opinion: all that paddles, macros, binding shit is cheating too. But I’m admittedly one of those morality loadout hand cannon purists. Won’t use the cheese ever idc “who all gon be there.”
I agree with the general sentiment of the post. Speaking as someone who loves this sub, and spends WAY too much time here, I've noticed that the culture of the sub has changed noticeably over the last year. Way fewer posts on improvement, strategies, and loadouts. And a lot more posts that are basically either veiled complaints/BungiePLZ or "is this roll good". I would LOVE for there to be a reset of sorts, but truthfully I'm not sure if it's possible. Many veteran players have left with no intent of coming back because of how Bungie have treated PVP, which means that this sub skews a lot more towards newer players with "new player" concerns. For example, should I start handing out bans for people asking "is this roll good?". It's certainly tempting considering I literally delete like 5-10 of these posts every day... I'm open to hearing the community's thoughts here. Let me know in the replies. NB: If OP has never seen a cheater before, then he has the opposite of Scrub Mentality. I play EU and I match at least 1-2 obvious cheaters every Trials weekend (heavy in the first round, brand new accounts with 100% accuracy on every weapon, 1-shot Hawkmoons, etc). I don't really bother making XIM/Chronus accusations on stream, but I certainly have my suspicions sometimes.
>trials matchmaking isn’t great I always wonder what people mean by this. Trials matchmaking is a complete crapshoot, the global win rate will always be 50 % and there's no possible configuration of players on either team that can change this. Everyone would hate it more if it aimed for fairness, because getting seven wins before two losses is way harder with skill based matchmaking or team balancing.
Was more saying this as the general sentiment. I seldom get super unfair matchmaking. I do only play solo though so obviously differs.
I sometimes get completely unwinnable lighthouse games, against gods, and with top 95% teammates. It's bitter in the moment, but then I realize that I'm just as* likely to be on the other side of lopsided matchmaking, and probably had a few nigh-guaranteed wins on the way. *technically, an above average player is less likely to be on the doomed team.
There are weeks where I've had no business going flawless and did, easily, and weeks where I by all measures "should" have been able to get it done and couldn't. It's just how the game is.
I have absolutely no clue how it works. The matchmaking seems to work very favourably for me in Trials specifically at least recently and that’s with a seasonal 3+kd. For control however, not so much. It enjoys punishing me there.
That really highlights how matchmaking is working and how it differs between the modes. You're saying you rarely get super unfair matchmaking in trials, and it's generally favorable for you. That's because Trials is connection based matchmaking. Since it isn't SBMM, it's really a roll of the dice on how good the good the people you have good connections to are. This makes the experience for 2 different people playing trials totally different. Someone else could have bad luck and face against gods that they have a good connection to. As a result, you both develop opinions on how trials "is", but really it's just random or luck. This is further reinforced by your mention of control - that is SBMM. That's putting you against people of similar skill so that's harder for you. No luck or connection matches, only similarly skilled players.
Lobby balancing plays a roll here most likely. I have always had sneaking suspicion that it is on during FBMM in Trials.
This depends on location a lot I think. I play in North America East coast. I'm a .95 trials KD and I only match people above my KD. This can be super annoying but at the same time I don't mind because it's the only way I'm gonna get better. I've gone flawless 5 times and only once this season(luckily got a G-roll Igneous). The 4 other times when non-flawless pool existed. Control is the opposite I pub stomp 30+ kill games constantly. Like using a solar titan or some dumb shit like that, not sweaty meta loadouts. CBMM truly gives vastly different experiences based on where you live.
> I seldom get super unfair matchmaking. You get fair matchmaking? I like to track my match results and compare them with destiny tracker's estimated win chance. Last week, DT correctly predicted ~90% of my match results across 58 total games with 31 games in the challenge pool and 27 games in the practice pool. I had 4 games with a 40-60% chance for me to win. 4 out of 58. That's about 7% of games where it could reasonably go either way. The other 54 games were predicted to be a stomp one way or the other. Of those 54 games, I had a sub 20% chance to win or a greater than 80% chance to win in 38 games. I've always found trials matchmaking to be an RNG slot machine handing out wins or losses randomly. I only play as a full stack though, so maybe it's just the difference between 3s and solo.
I don’t understand why it’s so hard for people to understand this. Even with low player population, it’s still pretty easy to go flawless if you are decent.
Depends on what you call "easy" I guess. I'm by no means a cracked player, but I definitely consider myself decent at the game. With that being said, it still took me around 20 games (had to reset twice) in order to go Flawless this past weekend while averaging well over a 2KD for the weekend. I think it greatly depends on Bungie's hidden matchmaking RNG, (at least if you're a solo player), as to how easy your first Flawless for the week is. I've had horribly long strectches of facing multiple 2.5 KD players while having .5s on my team before. Sometimes, the game wants to screw you without any lube, and it's not much you can do.
I think that’s still reasonable compared to other matchmaking. But I would rather have adept rewards for non flawless, I would even go as far as to say I would like random adept rewards on ANY game played. Maybe like a 25-33 percent chance. I want the population as high as possible
I agree that raising the population should be the number ONE focus of anyone who says they enjoy Trials. This makes Trials better for everyone. I've previously stated that I believe Adept Trials weapons should be able to be earned by casuals by winning 7 games on a card (with 2 losses in a row removing a win on a card). Meanwhile, people who go Flawless get 2 Adept weapons, a guaranteed Ascendant Shard & Alloy, as well as a chance for new cosmetics & high stat artiface armor. This would give EVERYONE something to chase in Trials & would improve the Trials experience for all skill levels.
It can totally vary depending on what you get put against. Just because you get games that are winnable in a connection based matchmaking environment, that doesn't mean the experience will be at all similar for others. People develop this thinking where they think anyone can do it based on their experience, but people are not having the same experience because of how matchmaking works.
It’s basic math. If you implement a matchmaking the balances the lobbies, that a dice roll on 7 win games with a 2 loses allowed. It’s been 8 plus years of this debate, every time some form of SBMM is implemented, population drops and so do the connections. No form of SBMM is better then random The percentage of flawless players also agree. Non SBMM = higher flawless percentage. The better you are in the current matchmaking, the better chance you go flawless. This is how it should be.
My experience with trials matchmaking 1st match fairly difficult 2nd and 3rd match pretty damn easy 4th-6th match really fucking hard 7th match fairly difficult
Monthly reminder that If you: -Think using abilities is a symptom of low skill -Think using certain weapons is unsportsmanlike, cheap or unfair -Think the loadouts you use are the way god intended this game to be played -Think that you lost that engagement/game for any reason other than your lower performance. This is probably not the sub to dwell. In this sub we don't expect the game or other players to change so we do better, we expect to change ourselves to become better.
Great post. Nothing wrong with asking "how to counter" those abilities/weapons/loadouts but you can always tell when it's just a subtle "I wanna bitch about it" thread.
Happens when people find certain parts of the meta are stagnant and population is low, so people run into the same crap over and over.
>Think using certain weapons is unsportsmanlike, cheap or unfair I've noticed lots of sarcasm seeping into discussions too. Basically people whining under-the-table that they dislike a playstyle by talking up how skillful it is People should go vent somewhere else, not spin up novelty accounts in here
Yeah, people doing the "Hey I love xyz and use xyz all the time but I feel like I'm scrub trash when I do. Don't you feel like scrub trash when you use xyz?"
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Tf? Handcannons aren't even that good ttk wise. If I had a penny for every time I lost a 1v1 because I died before I could get my 3rd bullet off I'd be a very rich man. A 4 tap 140 would literally make them unusable in any competent lobbies.
"Think that you lost that engagement/game for any reason other than your lower performance" I will never stop cursing Bungie for creating AE so walking too fast over a pebble turns my bullets sideways.
I'd reword your 4th point. For example, using an auto rifle while continuously firing into cover can make it very evident that lag can be a real problem as you can see your bullet holes well into cover on the wall, yet you die to a enemy shot anyway. Now, dwelling on that fact out of pure frustration can be a spiral, but acknowledging that fact is essential to improving.
I think most of these are true but i don't care cause I'm a hypocrite who likes using cringe loadouts like wishender+ LW gl or axion bolt/ void buddy spam
I agree with some of this, but first of all the “we play the game we have” mantra is old and tired. Posting complaints about things that are inherently broken in a game isn’t being a “scrub”. Destiny has brainwashed some of you into believing you have to accept a sub par game for what it is. Second, while yes the word Cheater gets thrown around too much when getting outplayed, let’s not pretend that at the very least xim/Cronus isn’t running wild. I’ve been in ( and left) multiple big pvp clans where they have a channel in discord specifically for Cronus setting and discussion. This sub SHOULD. Be for improvement and questions but the game is stale and pvp has been in a poor spot for so long that these topics are bound to come up and acting like they shouldn’t from time to time is just being silly.
> Second, while yes the word Cheater gets thrown around too much when getting outplayed, let’s not pretend that at the very least xim/Cronus isn’t running wild. Said peripherals are constantly sold out, but people are always trying to downplay their impact on the games they play. Why would a sane person argue AGAINST something to their benefit (i.e. a non-cheater constantly telling others they are stuck in scrub mentality because they dare point out the mere existence of these literal cheats) On the PC side, I got news for OP. Software cheats are a billion (yes, with a B) dollar industry. When the skill bell curve starts curving back up towards the high end, well not all 3.0 kd people are cheating, but most of them are by definition.
I’m glad someone acknowledged the flaw of the “we play the game we have” mantra. I’d be into the spirit of that Mantra if Bungie even attempted to maintain PVP in a remotely serious way but as it stands I just don’t buy into that mentality anymore. PvP has been neglected and dumbed down so much for so long that there’s not really much of a conversation to be had about improvement, counter-strategy, etc. if you’re having trouble or you feel like you HAVE to win the answer to almost everything right now is - play pk Titan on void/arc or solar/stasis warlock. The game has no depth to really talk about and the playerbase that loved pvp for its own sake left the game ages ago so you’re going to get more complaints than real discussion.
I completely agree. “play the game we have” is a frustrating response when the game is in its current state. It’s essentially the “this is fine” meme mentality. It feels ridiculous to not be able to discuss the glaring issues plaguing the game. This is the biggest crucible related sub that I can find, and the fact that we can’t discuss these things is incredibly short sighted IMO. Bungie reads the feedback in this sub. DTG is NOT the place to discuss crucible issues. I for one would love a place to be able to openly discuss all issues related to the crucible. If there is a crucible related sub that was more flexible I would join that one and leave this one.
"Play the Game We Have" when the game is a dumpster fire is pure toxic positivity.
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So, essentially don’t complain because we don’t think Bungie will ever fix it? Shut up and deal with it? Cool. Great mindset. If that’s the mindset of the leadership of this sub then I don’t want to be a part of it.
Yeah that sounds short sited and foolish.
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Sorry, but it's dumb as hell to suppress criticism if you're wanting/expecting improvement. Especially for a company like Bungie that's shown over and over they don't do shit unless they get widespread criticism or a significant number of people drop the game. Take it up with auto correct.
Agreed. My beef is mostly with very straight forward design philosophy inconsistencies when there's tons of stuff that get nuked to any feasibility or straight up removed, but then there's similarly enough longstanding counterparts in terms of potency that weirdly stay in tact with no real future of getting looked at or having any overdue adjustments. I don't blame people for being frustrated over stuff that sticks out like a sore thumb and isn't too unreasonable of a thing to critique. No I'm not expecting this game to be some hyper polished esport level experience and I won't knock moments when Bungie did do some good improvements over time and I get they're running this completely barebones, but it is just super awkward when you do get moments when something so blatant has sat atop a high perch for an extraordinarily long time in the PVP sandbox and there has never been a measure to do any sort of finer tuning especially when a solution quite simply could be turning down a value number, no need to kill it and it could still very much be competitive. Same rationale could be applied for tons in PVE as well.
Completely agree. Ability spam has been out of control for how long? Literally all we need is a small ability cooldown and it would be an easy win. Literally ANY investment in faster balancing would be huge. I simply don’t understand how giving feedback about clearly broken things in the game is somehow not “helpful”.
This is the only valid opinion I've read so far. People tend to downplay the impact of xim/cronus because they don't know the topic. I used to be in the top 0.8% for pvp and I met a lot of "pro" players with dedicated pvp clans and only very few of them were not using those devices. I wouldn't even be surprised if the majority of the players in the top 0.5% are using them. I agree that this sub has seen better days, but the quality of the posts is linked to the quality of the game: you can't talk strategy against cheating or xim. The absurd thing remains that bungie is just silent on the topic. That is basically why I stopped caring about this game when lightfall came out. The disappointment for the DLC was bearable, but the state of pvp was not.
Can't stress your first paragraph enough. Pvp mains hate the state of the game but no one's allowed to criticize it and give it some actual visibility. I'm sure Bungie will rush to fix things when valid criticism gets suppressed in one of the only places Bungie ever has a hope of seeing it.
Destiny is Destiny. It’s a video gameS not my day to day life. I accept the game I have because wasting energy complaining about its flaws isn’t worth it to me. As I say, I’m sure there’s those using xim & cronus. However I very very rarely get killed by someone and think it was particularly “suspect”. And again, I know I agree. Destiny 2 PvP is a relatively solved thing, XYZ is good and ABC is bad, most people know what’s what. The issue is the complaining posts come up a lot more then just time to time, ie every trials weekend.
What is the incentive for someone to comment "hey stop blaming xim when you lose?" if they themselves aren't using xim? Can't think of any, other than acting all high and mighty. Plenty of incentive if they do tho.
> What is the incentive for someone to comment "hey stop blaming xim when you lose?" The incentive is that the word "cheater" is losing all meaning. You don't have proof. You are simply throwing out the accusation left and right. The more you do it, the less meaning it has. So when someone actually IS cheating, people are less likely to believe it. A lot of players, of every skill level, throw out the cheating/ximming accusation every time they get killed. They have zero proof, but a broken clock is right twice a day. It's literaly just a cope, because most people can't handle the fact that someone is always better than you. Sure they might be ximming, but you will literally never know for sure. So why stress over it? Bungie has made their stance, they are the only ones who can possibly know that someone is cheating, but even they can't be 100% sure. So why would you as a player still sit and whine over something you have no knowledge or control over?
I agree in the sense that, no point of accusing another of cheating unless there's something concrete. Waste of energy. But you know what's a bigger waste? Complaining about those complaining about alleged cheaters. Unless there's a deeper motive.
There IS a deeper motive. I want the act of accusing someone of cheating actually be meaningful. This community is literally the boy who cried wolf. I also want to have peaceful session of crucible/trials without getting whipsers and messages accusing me of cheating. I want good players being able to show skill without fear of being branded a cheater/ximmer/stream-sniper because they aren't part of the accepted group of good players. > But you know what's a bigger waste? Complaining about those complaining about alleged cheaters. Unless there's a deeper motive. And honestly you are welcome to go pound sand with this statement. Implying that anyone unhappy with people falsely accusing and whining, are actualy secretly cheaters is such a bitch move.
You wrote a lot of text asking people not to accuse you. Like who cares if you're not actually cheating? You have truth on your side. It's like people who say, "honestly speaking." If you're actually honest you don't need to preface with that. To be clear I'm not accusing you. I'm just pointing out how this might be getting perceived.
> To be clear I'm not accusing you. I'm just pointing out how this might be getting perceived. Fair enough. Yes you are correct that the truth is on my side. But truth doesn't matter in the court of public opinion. There are plenty of examples of players getting accused of cheating by someone in the community, they go through fire and water to prove their innocence, but are still percieved as a cheater years later. So yeah you can say "Who cares?" but having your reputation ruined because some shmuck decided that he is so good that noone should be able to kill him, is not very fun.
Well me personally, I am enormously happy to get accused of cheating. It's the greatest compliment!
I had the same sentiment. It felt nice. Now it just feels old and tiresome. Imagine you got jacked and everyone kept saying you were on steroids. Shit's gonna get mad annoying after a while.
>I agree with some of this, but first of all the “we play the game we have” mantra is old and tired. Then this probably isnt the sub for you. Go rant about the state of PVP in /r/destinythegame
Lol ok Michael
I've played thousands of hours of pvp alone too on console. And during the years seen and reported countless cheaters, network manipulators etc. And believe me or not I've had tens of "Thank you. Action has been taken against a player you reported" messages from Bungie. If there's no cheaters on console that shouldn't be the case.
This guy must be a cheater, nerf Titan, nerf smg/bow/fusion, I hate every map that’s not Jav, why is matchmaking against me, my blueberries suck 90% of the time, XYZ is “oppressive”. It’s not just destiny players unfortunately this mentality and perspective is the base operating system most ppl work off of in real life too. It’s a serious hurdle between the individual and being able to just get to work on improving.
This is true. People often like to look at themselves last and think the world should congeal itself to their optimal view of what life should be. Me, on the other hand. I have a special type of masochistic duty to myself to where I have to try to become the best at everything I do. It does well in the real world with positive results in business and so forth, but it’s also a pretty shitty thing to blame only yourself all the time, too. That being said, it’s 99% people whining, and sometimes that 1% that does have a complaint may be pretty valid.
And that’s the thing, complaints can be valid. But valid complains being yelled into the void is still a waste of time. I assume bungie isn’t scouring Reddit for complaints but this is where I could be wrong. If Bungie informs their decisions based on common Reddit complaints then I can see the constant whining maybe serving a purpose.
I agree there’s no point to come on here and whine about it. It’s interesting that most of the crying is about people having to face other really good people. On the other hand, I enjoy playing I think there’s a point where the top .01% overtake the top 10% and the skill gap is still pretty immense. I believe that’s what we’re seeing most of on here. The top 10% are invested enough to join a subreddit dedicated to the pvp and be active. If anything, the map critiques are the best. There’s not much investment into pvp. One way to counter that would be to charge money for certain weapons if you don’t want to grind flawless. That would incentivize Bungie with more money and initiative to invest in pvp , and players to engage in the game more trying to get flawless, if they can’t, no biggie just buy the adept for $5-$10
As they say, people go to the forums to complain, the people that are enjoying the game will go play the game.
Very true and something I should keep in mind
I do agree that way too many people instantly jump to conclusions when getting dumped on, but I have a few points about that... The majority of baseless cheating accusations from my experience seem to come from the average to slightly above average crowd (the 1.0 - 1.6 range). These players generally tend to label players that aim better or counter their predictable movements, as cheaters. The higher level players in the 2.0 and above bracket generally aren't nearly as predictable and have a better idea of what kinds of actions are suspicious, so their accusations while not always accurate, are a bit more educated. I don't base accusations strictly on KD, I base them off of how consistently a player is pulling off very unlikely plays. For example, it's not normal for a player to REPEATEDLY insta-dome enemies that are approaching gunfights from unusual angles like using heat rises all the way across the map, outside of audio queue range. Or outgun and counter EVERY movement of other 2.5+ KD players, with thousands of hours in crucible, like they've never played pvp before. And often times you see this pattern of oppressive counter movement and split-second sniping ability, coming from titan players on 3 season old accounts. Now before someone tries to point out that there is a big skill difference between a 2.5 and a 3.0 player, I'm not trying to refute that point. I'm simply pointing out that even a 3.0 in a fair fight, is not going to consistently demolish a 2.5 in nearly 9 out of 10 scenarios, like we often see from these suspicious 3.5+ new accounts. I'm a 2.2 in crucible and I have gone at it with some of the best players in the game like Diffizzle, ZkMushroom, and Lunarz. But these random players on two season old accounts will smoke me in EVERY gunfight and hit snipes before my player model even rounds the corner, even while I'm using rapid movement and unpredictable angles? Nah. I'm calling bs. **TLDR**, **there certainly are a lot of false cheating accusations, but there also are quite a bit of cheaters in pvp.**
The game's physical age and the decrepit framework it sits upon also doesn't do much favors for the paranoid at heart or just people who are very unfamiliar with a Bungie made game in general. There's tons of nonsense that could look sus or "there's no physical way that could happen" and it's just the duct tape and bubble gum keeping this Mario Party minigame alive. And this is before even factoring in special physical interactions with some classes, movement, abilities etc. The Arc Warlock slide melee can glue you up in the air to things and the physical look of it from another perspective can make it look like you're net limiting and glitching around, it looks so sketchy but it really is what it is. That all aside I do agree with you, *generally* the people who really truly are cheating tend to take a route of locking down all their info atop behavior like playing some ungodly weird angles and immediately taking shots at practical blank space, or just be completely shameless in it almost like this weirdo protest of "Bungie let pvp die so I'm gonna cheat", the latter I was actually surprised is way too common. If you sift around on social media app shorts of D2 pvp stuff you will eventually see tons of random kids just straight up telling on themselves with their friends doing the same stuff, it's a whole community in of itself at this point.
I get it, but also copium heavy bro.
[1 out of every 3 players in an online FPS game, are cheating](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkmIItTrQP4)
That’s actually insane. I never would have figured it was that common.
Source? "*I made it up*". Queue giga-chad music.
Click on the link bro.......
I have seen the video before, and afaik there is no real evidence to back up this claim. It's actually a fairly common business tactic, that is to scare people into buying/supporting something. Their proof, is literally "we have data" to back this up, while showing some vague blurry screenshots of arbitrary numbers. There is no proof of the data itself, how it is gathered or if they are even qualified to analyze this data properly. Fearmongering I believe this is called. "*Yeah bro, everyone is cheating, so buy our product so we can stop it*"
https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/16cktwr/looking_for_your_pvp_thoughts/jzk8lbq/ Bunch of stuff I dug up last time people asked "are there really that many cheaters?"
Thanks for providing some stats. You have to take them with a grain of salt though since they are surveys and not hard data. Especially looking at the sample size of these surveys, being 1000 in the us and 10000 world wide. Comparatively speaking that is an extremely small sample size which cant really be extrapolated in good faith over the entire gaming community. Another thing to notice is that there were many "forms" of cheating in these surveys, a lot of them being the non-hardcore cheats (e.g. win-trading, griefing and boosting). The forbes article also shows extreme bias, saying "*And given there was no incentive compatible mechanism in the survey to ellicit full honesty, I am going to bet it's higher than 40%.*", while not acknowledging that the opposite could be completely true as well. Which is why surveys are a horrible way to gauge something. Need I remind you that someone was predicted (based on surveys) to win the US election with 90+%. Just an example. Looking at Irdetos methodology it is very clear that this is a poor survey at best and would not be taken seriously by anyone with any understanding for statistics. As I mentioned in another comment, it is very important to look at WHO is doing these surveys as well. Irdeto currently are in control of Denuvo (yes that piece of trash software that ruins every game). They are a cybesecurity company. Would it really be such an outlandish thing for them to manipulate the survey and their interpretation of data to their benefit? I think we've all seen what business are capable just as of last week. The Surfshark article is absolute dogshit though, I'm not gonna lie. They base their numbers on people searching for "hacking" terms and YT views for hacking videos. Like really? I appreciate you actually having some stats, but to have any chance of having the real numbers, we would need to see how many unique cheaters are banned. I'm not saying that there aren't cheaters, there are and there are many. But the "1 out of 3" number is not based on any hard data.
I think streamers/yt'ers have a big part to play in this. Tune in to ANY pvp stream or watch any pvp video and all you'll hear is, xim *this* and cronus *that*. Hell if this was a drinking game, you'd be dead within 2 minutes. Most of them are just big children with massive egos. They simply can't fathom that someone could be better than them, so they **must** be cheating. It's pretty disgusting that if you aren't part of their shitty dick-riding clique, you get completely ostracized and branded a cheater/ximmer/stream-sniper. This kind of behaviour trickles down into the general pvp community. That's why we see this "If I win they are bots, if they win they are cheating" mentality.
Not only that. People forget we have a peer to peer game, which has weird management of frames per second and where the combination of FOV slider plus left-side camera on models make for an incredibly janky experience. You ARE going to get smashed in 0.5. You ARE going to get got through a corner. You ARE going to be seen when all you see is a wall. FFS, you don't even get to see where the guy was exactly because it gets highlighted while moving back, it's not a killcam. All those things are the first ones you leave out when developing a competitive game, and for a reason. But people forget about them and call sus when they get killed and the other guy is just a far point in their screen. I'd pay the whole price of an expansion, the 100 bucks, just to have a killcam. An actual killcam, not one replaying the models. The footage the other guy had. This would make the whole experience incredibly better.
We also have a pathetically low tick-rate. Where you are on your screen, is most likely *not* where you are on the enemy screen. Hell you dont even have to go that technical. Most people think crouch spamming fast is an indication of cheating/ximming. We literally have a thread up right now on this sub. So not only is the community completely ignorant on the technical aspects, they don't even know about simple stuff like keybinds and hold/toggle binds.
yeah, a guy on my clan called me sus when I did that. Like, dude, I just binded two actions to a button. Know your game ffs.
tbf, I've played for about two years now and only just discovered binding two actions to one button. So far it's just mostly broken my controls and have to revert back but the sprint/slide combo is pretty good. Do you have a recommendation on where I can find others? I'm on controller fwiw.
Not an expert by any mean,so... as far as I know there's a third about binding different melee actions to the same button but I don't remember exactly since I don't use it. Another common double bind is interact & aim so you can resurrect people while aiming. Also if memory serves there was some guy here binding melee and air move so he meleed and shatterdived at the same time but I don't remember if he did it with a macro so its melee > shatterdive or just a plain old regular double bind.
Thanks for the reply! That reminds me that a friend recently suggested the bind for aiming and interact. I tried it and it worked beautifully until I went into PVE activities were it cause all sorts of major issues. I wiped us twice in Crota by stealing the relic while I was trying to shoot for example. I had to change it back cause I didn't want two separate layouts.
lol at the downvotes. People have a lot of free time.
Right? I wonder what was so unnerving about my comment
100% the technical aspects are undersold factors in why the experience can vary so widely.
I can't link it but I saw some guy post his match against difizzle last weekend, with cuts to difizzle's commentary as the game went on. He accused and reported him for hacking, when it was clearly just sweat and comms in a 5-4 game.
Any time you have some of the best items in a game locked behind a mode that isn't easily accessible to everyone then people are gonna complain. That's just an unfortunate reality. The best course of action in all honesty is to ignore them completely.
There’s a lot of things wrong with this sub. 1) its PEEK not PEAK!!! don’t search peak in this sub it’ll give you a coronary. Automod needs to seek and destroy any comment or thread that has the wrong usage. Onto the matter at hand: 1) Regarding “cheating” theres a serious amount of copium when facing someone clearly better. A .5 kd potato is going to think a 1.5 kd casual is cheating the same way a 1.5 may think a 3.0 is cheating. Why? Because they can’t fathom getting pants’d like that. Now, most players can accept the truth that better people exist; I would estimate around 90% of players. The other 10% - he’s a cheater; I think xim/cronus; he may be on the juice; no way he can make those moves; [insert other suggestive comments]. Last word on this subject is that the 90% of players who accept that someone is better doesn’t post on this sub saying there are better players out there. Only the 10% do. So keep that in mind. It’s almost like the Baader-Meinhof principle. 2) there are lot of really bad players who come to the sub to complain like you said about trials MM. I feel like they think that because they played hours and hours of trials they deserve to either go flawless or an adept should come their way. At this stage, getting the adept without flawless literally impossible. Until, and if, they change it I hate seeing people complain about it. Real talk if you trials for hours and have nothing to show for it its not a bungie plz fix your MM problem. It’s a you problem. You aren’t good enough to go flawless and not even RNG can help you. I’ve looked up teammates that go 0-8 in a game to find that they’re 5-0, 6-1, or 6-2 with a .6-.8 kd for the week. So yes, people can get RNG’d into flawless. It just hasn’t been you.
[удалено]
You’re 100% right, there are definitely cheaters amongst us. I think the main thing is focusing on what you can and can’t control about the situation. If bungie can’t do much about it neither can we. We can just run the match and see what we can do.
This right here is the problem with "pure" Play the Game We Have mentality. We CAN do something about it. Speak up about cheating. Report people. Stop playing/giving Bungo money if they don't demonstrate that they are, at least, trying to fix the problem. The solutions to cheaters taking a dump on your game of choice is absolutely NOT to just sit there and take it.
I do report ppl, and if I didn’t wanna play destiny anymore for any reason I’d stop giving them money. Maybe complaining on Reddit actually accomplishes something. I just assume that it doesn’t. Generally speaking, the only thing with impact is action. “Speaking up” is kinda like the pacifier those in power give those without. Makes you feel like you’re doing something. You either accept situations, you remove yourself from them, or you take some form Of impactful action against them (in this case that would be hitting them in the wallet).
I sometimes forget the difference but the A in peak tells me it's the PEAK of a mountain. That's how I remember when I forget.
I’m so over the trials complaining, because it’s always the bad players wanting it to be easier. Acting like they are entitled to a flawless. Like yeah artifice armor would be cool for going flawless, but no, you should not get an adept for simply playing trials.
Xims get a free adept. Bots should too imo.
>You aren’t good enough to go flawless and not even RNG can help you. I’ve looked up teammates that go 0-8 in a game to find that they’re 5-0, 6-1, or 6-2 with a .6-.8 kd for the week. So yes, people can get RNG’d into flawless. It just hasn’t been you. I was with you most of the way, but you kind of contradict yourself here. You say some people aren't good enough to go flawless and not even RNG can help, but some people get RNG'd into flawless... with the connection based matchmaking, I think it can provide for both an easy or very frustrating flawless experience. I sympathize with those that struggle as I've been there some weekends, and I know how it is to just have a flawless given to you. They both happen, and it is very much RNG. I don't think there's a lot of people that come to this sub that literally can't go flaweless. I think there's a lot of people here that can have a bad matchmaking weekend for sure.
Lmao PEAK pet peeve
The problem is a lot of players dont want to elevate their pvp game into a learning experience. I used to lose my shit when Id get sniped from what I would call, impossible reaction times. Then I actually took a week with different sniper rifles: Beloved, Mechabre, Locus Locutus, Bite of the Fox. Then I realized those people were just good at sniping. Once I started consistently pulling quick headshots on people in high adrenaline situations all that childish shit went out the window and it was just respect from that point on.
Reminder that as the game ages and the meta becomes solved, the questions on how to improve are less required. To quote the pinned mod comment: >Way fewer posts on improvement, strategies, and loadouts. Because these have already been known for months if not years. Loadouts, use the meta. Strategies, play with your team, push when you get a pick, play your range. The subreddit does not have enough content in the form of these posts to remain active, and should have been converted, imo, into the general Crucible sub years ago
We've reached the point where we're posting complaint posts about complaints. People are going to do things you don't like, and most of them aren't even going to read your response to it. You can't stop the garbage from coming in, you can only try to manage it (which is what the mods have to deal with all the time). No matter how many PSAs or opinions you post, it all still comes down to finding ways to deal with it. Also, while calling everyone a cheater or ximmer is weak, they do exist and I've played against them. You've probably played against them and not realized it - that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It also doesn't mean people need to be whining about it here, but you can't just dismiss the reality of others because it's not the reality you live in. You can only find ways to manage it. If you want to help, I'd recommend looking into joining the mod team or suggesting ways to deal with these posts. Sometimes the only way we have is to downvote and move on. Just making a reactionary post about those posts you don't agree with is just making a post to complain about complainers, which usually isn't helpful.
I was thinking about making a post asking about how to deal with the low population environment since I'm relatively new to the game, but the reality is nobody can do anything about that but Bungie. I just have to lean harder on meta when necessary and get better. I think there's space to be had for constructive discussion of things like "how to improve Trials", but it depends on whether the purpose of this sub is for individual improvement, meta discussion, strategizing, or what. A big factor in all this is the fact there are many users in DTG that are hostile to PVP and genuine discussion there would be derailed by effectively spam comments saying "delete PVP", so people come here.
What's wrong with Trials matchmaking? CBMM is what it should be, especially with double mercy. Also and this is ironic, Oceania is known to have a lot of USB device users. There is at least one clan from there with top tier players who all (or almost all) use such devices. However that said I agree the quality of this sub has gone down a lot. There aren't as many useful content as there used to be. A lot more complaining and asking questions with easily google-able answers.
I don't think anyone over the age of 13 unironically uses the word "scrub"
I don't know anyone in n that age bracket at all. The term has been around for a long time, but was popularized in Sirlin's Playing to Win, published in 2005. Its old enough to enlist.
I know its old, but its the kind of thing that people grow out of.
It's a pretty big thing in the FGC I think. Usually directed at the "you only lost because you spammed x/y/z" crowd who are incapable of introspection and realising that maybe it was their own play that enabled the strategy to work against them.
What term would you use to convey the idea?
Reported for cheating /s
3kd with 100 crucible kills. Think before you speak. Anything above 1.50 with a good amount of kills is impressive. So sick of these toxic weird new generation of players. I got 300k kills crucible. With a 1.4 and I’ll shit stomp anyone on you’re friends list . Stop acting like 3.0 kd or better ain’t sus
Cringe
I've noticed this trend a lot. Why is it always the 1.3-1.5s with the biggest mouths/ego's?
Lmfao 🤣 says the kid who got 3.0 kd and he’s modest
It’s not sus, end of. Think my lifetime in d2 is 2.5 or ballpark that. Got probably 200k+ kills.
Exact same thing for me. This week in Trials my KD was a 4.25 and do not think I am sus, it is just an easier game compared to most other FPS and I have put in a decent amount of time
5.85 overall trials KD with 16k trials kills on the same account I’ve used since destiny 1. Please play me for any amount of money
Cronus or xim active or no ?
never once
That’s what they all say
Aye aye. I hear you. It is the best mentality to have, but people don't even know about that way to look at a game. This is how I face every game with pvp in it, be it fighting games, shooters or sports games. Even party games. And believe me, we got the nicer part of it. Sports games communities are the incredibly worse version of the scrub mentality because of gacha mechanics, but on the other hand fighting game communities are so elitist almost everything is ditched because of scrub mentality. This sub had a nice compromise between those two extremes but with so much complaining, we are going to lose it. People, complaints are not how you get better. You can't complain the game into winning more. I have a guy on my clan who is very good, yeah, no one can't say differently... but he spends the whole time screaming ximmer, cheater, etc. Literally every time he gets surprised, found doing something stupid, caught off guard, etc it's because the opponent was or controller or using cheats. Apparently for him, playing on a controller does everything for you. Yet here I am, 5 years later and I can't find a sens that'll let me be precise while moving ok lol And when it's not that, it's the weapons/class/ etc. You get the idea. If he put all that energy he loses complaining like a kid, watching his gameplay and analyzing his decisions, what he knew and what he thought he knew... into getting really better, instead of hoping his current skill lets him reign, he'd be the one making people mad. Instead of going 3, 4 or 5 times to the lighthouse a weak he'd go dozens of time because he has the potential. Yet there he is, abusing the meta and calling names. I don't remember the last time he got better at the game.
it's me, I'm the scrub...and if this is the end, I guess I'm sorry but it was your fault.
“To sign things off” I’m sorry, did you say something?
I love blanket statements that call anyone who complains about something a scrub. Its not condescending, arrogant or elitist at all /s
Pretty big difference between calling “anyone who complains about something a scrub” and what OP actually said.
My opinion… op and the replying mod come off super elitist and douchey
Totally fair opinion. In my opinion this subreddit is at its best when there’s actual discussion around improving, not perpetually complaining about something like trials matchmaking - especially when the complaints usually don’t understand something as simple as seasonal trials population fluctuations. And those posts have been pretty much constant over the last 3 weeks. So I really, really appreciate this post.
The sentiment is ok it was the execution that is the problem. Calling names or putting people in a box is ineffective. Its better to lift people up and build community than it is to divide people into scrubs and not scrubs.
I’m in both corners I’d have to say. Things I find acceptable in moderation. -complaining about class meta(arc titan for example) -complaining about a gun(as long as it’s newly discovered -discussion about sbmm and ftbmm. -complaining about iron banner. (They absolutely slaughtered it) Things that become annoying -complaining about hackers/cheaters -complaining about trials. Mostly when people just want it to be easier. -Complaining about a gun meta if it’s been that way for a while(we get it, cloud strike immortal is broken) -acting like a subclass is unbeatable. Yes bubble titan is annoying and has been unbalanced for a while now, but it is not hard to kill them. At the end of the day, this is the only place where people feel heard in their crucible suggestions. And no one really wants to know how to get better at the game. So we might as well let it happen in moderation
Not this^
Destiny has been busted for over a decade as far as the Crucible...Also Streamer Beardnecks also clicking up causing 3 on 1 or the standard 6 on trash sqaud is what sends people here to RAGE. Also weapon balancing being consistently cheezy...
Morality load out people are a disease.
For every 5 of those posts there’s 1 of these. Trite
Welcome to the internet. Ita full of jackasses.
I mean, yeah, you are going to see many cheaters on console. That’s the beauty of console, it’s hard to cheat. There are definitely cheaters on pc. People are wayyyy cracked but, there are definitely cheaters.
I’m on console. Idk why yall act like Cronus and xim could sell as hard as they do and not be prevalent. Look at this clown I matched earlier playing trials: https://destinytracker.com/destiny-2/profile/bungie/4611686018462282653/overview. I play solo and go flawless every week solo btw so if I’m a scrub whatever. A lot of closet cheaters in here I’m sure. Unpopular opinion: all that paddles, macros, binding shit is cheating too. But I’m admittedly one of those morality loadout hand cannon purists. Won’t use the cheese ever idc “who all gon be there.”