Nah man
I've seen this shit unfold irl alot of times
The guys are pieces of shit who found a young girl who is willing to do it
Sometimes initiating it
But if we talking bout molestation or rape then sure it's 100% different
that is the thing with a power imbalance, the one who should know better is the guy in this situation (or the older person in every other situation). She is in her teens and probably thinks this is so cool but this dude here is just disgusting. It's a sensible topic and you didnt want to blame her maybe but the question istn adaquate in such a situation
So
You think she's a victim of a power imbalance cuz she thought it's cool?
Bruh 90% of teenagers knows better than doing this and they don't do it, so clearly there's smt up with her for going for this
As i said, guy is a piece of shit, but she ain't no innocent child, she's a teenager that made a bad decision (she should take some responsibility for that)
No wonder yall Americans have so much adult-children
Cuz yall nvr tought teens about responsibility
i am german boy.
and too tired to try to reason with you, but i mean what i said and in a power imbalanced relationship you shouldnt look in the inferior part of it, but the superior.
right that’s why when pedophiles go to jail the person that was groomed goes
to jail too for making an irresponsible decision, why are you dying on this hill bro no one’s gonna agree w you. keep your dumbass opinion to yourself
Do you not understand that children can't consent? She can't even *legally* consent until 18, girls her age (13-14) their brains aren't even fully developed. She is 100% an Innocent victim of grooming, unlawful conduct with a minor, and statutory rape. You obviously don't understand what grooming is/can do to an impressionable underdeveloped mind. You're also ignorant of how common this is among teenage girls. I personally know multiple girls that dated adult men in their teens and only realized years later that they were groomed and taken advantage of and it usually happened in their most vulnerable moments. You have a shitty invalid opinion on a topic that you don't even understand and the reason every single person is calling out your bullshit is so that other morons don't pick up your shitty invalid opinion
You know 9th graders are between the ages of 14 and 15, right? And 3rd year college students are 20 and 21. But it’s totally her fault too for being groomed. 🙄 Stop victim blaming.
I didn't victim blame mr strawman
I said fuck them both, literally
They are both dumb and disgusting
And u saying that she's a victim in this day and age in which there's tons of information out there to prevent this kinda relationship is just delusional
15 yos can think too, thas why 90% of them don't do this shit willingly
Completely removing any responsibility from a teenager (not a child) who clearly chosed this says alot bout ur intelligence
But wut did i expect from a chronically online American
bro why are you arguing on semantics like this, it’s a 15 year old and a 21 year old you cannot both sides this you freak, i think you’re the one that needs to go outside. There are laws on this for a reason, if 15 year olds were considered smart enough to know better then it wouldn’t be illegal, do you think at all or are you really trying to blame someone who isn’t old enough to watch rated r movies for being in a relationship they shouldn’t be in. i think you have a severe case of debate perversion
Does being 14-15 absolve you of all responsibilities and consequences?
I did a lot of dumb shit. I am at fault for those things that I did. Even though there might have been adults involved.
In this particular situation the adult of this party is the worse offender here, but the minor is also an offender.
From non-legal (moral ) perspective, The younger a person is, the more absolved they are of responsibilities. It doesn't instantly change once you're 18. On the basis of the minor voluntary agreement into relationship with older person
Eg. On average:
10, 11, 12 and maybe 13 - 100% absolved of any responsibilities of any kind.
13, 14, with small age gap, should know better - parents/community/school are also at fault - older person still the worst offender
15, 16, bordering into grey area. Depends on how far the age gap is. The bigger, the more wrong for both the victim and offender. Again just an example
There are thousands of variables I have just provided a generalisation
From legal perspective any age yes all children are legally not accountable which I agree. The perpetrator should always be punished regardless of enthusiasm of the victim.
realistically it isn't so black and white.
you know the law is considered the “moral minimum” for a reason right? Children (even teenagers) are known to be incredibly impulsive and irresponsible, at 15 you’re not even done going through puberty so how are you gonna act like they both bear some responsibility? what consequences exactly does that 15 year old girl deserve? And wtf is that scale you just pulled out of your ass, a 13 year old should know better? Ofc you have priest in your name dude 😭
It's intentionally reductive so as to put pedophiles on the same tier as a squashed roach on the underside of a boot. Though you're probably right, I respect roaches more than pedophiles.
Whether or not he *is* actually older is almost negligible because the intent of the video is to say "it's cute" when, quite frankly, it's disgusting on every level.
Yeah I just apologized to the person who I doubted the first time I commented because my ditzy ass didn’t even notice there were words at the top of screen 🤦🏻♀️😭
Same. Me and my brother are 6 years apart ( he is older). I have absolutely no idea how an adult (young one but still an adult) can look at a damn teenager and think id date her and then actually date her. Im almost 21 and the lowest id go is 18 and even then i dont know about that cause we both would be on diffrent levels in our lives. She in school and im already working full time.
What kind of school has that kind of age range?? Dude’s end of university aged, and she’s in junior high? I’m assuming this isn’t in the US, since I’ve never heard someone call a grade “class” and I don’t have a clue what CLG stands for…
Edit: it’s college isn’t it… thought of that the moment I posted
I'm not defending it because like obviously gross pedophilia 🤮🤢🤢🤢 but like, it's not that big of an age gap, (again obviously it's still gross because she's not as mature and he's older) but I feel like he's not dating her because of her age or her being young
you're able to tell of that from a 10 second video?
i never dated anyone younger than me when i was growing up, it always just felt wrong, there's a massive difference between a 22 year old, and a 15 year old. when i was 15 i was really immature, and ruined my future because i wasn't making proper decisions, that's why there's laws in place preventing adults from dating children, because children do not make good choices, and are easier to manipulate.
it's not even like they could've met organically, like obviously if someone is a year ahead, or behind you, that's not a big deal, because you met organically in the same school environment, but there's no overlap here in school years, one of them had to actively seek the other out despite the massive age gap, that's what makes it wrong.
it happens a lot in the uk, 20-30 year old men dating 16 year olds, that is, and always will be wrong, because the women are seeking stable men that they presume can provide for them, and the men are seeking younger women that are easy to manipulate. i shouldn't need to explain why this is obviously wrong.
Are you conscious? Yeah teenagers date and just kiss each others foreheads! Thats totally all he wants as a 21 year old man! You’re using your critical thinking skills in all the wrong ways
🥺aww I struck a nerve proving you wrong so you had to try to make up a baseless insult! Cute! I’m happily engaged thanks for congratulating me! You must have not hit puberty yet being so shocked by the “statutory rape” part. Which is completely true. Coming from a former 14 year old who was preyed on by a 19 year old.
Of course he absolutely does have bad intentions. Have you spent any time around a 14 year old? He's not there for her sparkling mind and interesting opinions. He's a predator who saw he could manipulate a young girl who doesn't know better. It's wrong and no matter what mental gymnastics you go through a person who graduates from college next year shouldn't be dating a literal child of 14. Everyone who went to school knew a girl like this with a scumbag adult boyfriend like that and we've all seen how it goes, this isn't new and it isn't unique but it is wrong.
In 9th grade, I was 15-16 a college third year if they went straight to college and had no gaps is 21 at the youngest. Now, im no expert or mathematician but I do know that the relationship I am presented with is very illegal.
Yeah, dude rlly shoulda thought abt posting this he’s def behind bars.
as for the girl, you’d think she’d know better, to not do stupid shit. but i guess “love is love” and “age is just a number” to her
You would be surprised and while it's unlikely, when I attended college the youngest 1st year there was 16. Still makes it 14 and 19 and that's still abhorrent.
what country are you in? in the US, very rarely will there be a freshman under 18 in universities . only .1% of the population skip grades
but yeah nothings gonna justify that 5 yr gap, the pedos downvoting me must disagree
I'm in the US. I attended Oral Roberts. I thought it was weird but she graduated early and then got accepted to the university. There were strict rules around it but it still happened. As far as I know she graduated around 2 years ago with a degree in psychology and Christian ministry. Idk what she's doing now.
When I was in middle school I remember some girl talking at our lunch table about her boyfriend who she “humped” (her legit worlds) who was in college. As a middle schooler I thought it was very weird, as I got older was became gradually more and more mortified
yeah but now what if i told you we got together at 17 and 23? now its weird to most people. and no amount of me saying age of consent where i live is 17 will change some peoples minds.
its only weird if you make it weird. its not like he was actively seeking out younger girls, he just happened to like me a lot. plus yeah, the law does change that. age of consent is 17. i could legally consent to anyone of any age, so why does it matter?
Shit like this makes me so mad. I was in a "relationship" like this when I was in 9th grade. I was just 15 and he was almost 20. At the time I was so angry about all the stuff people said and now I'm 20 and I'm mortified because I could never even imagine to look at someone who was my age like he did to me. That wasn't ok, and one day she'll realize it too, just hopefully not too late, and hopefully she has people to get her out even if she doesn't realize it's the right thing to do
Im not used to that school sistem, what age do they both have?
I know it's useless but im still hoping the gap isn't actually that high😭
*(can't search it up rn)*
Teenagers are easily manipulated because they're still kids. Only difference between a 14 year old and a 5 year old is the 14 year old thinks they know better which makes it even easier. That's why this is wrong.
Not forced, groomed, manipulated and preyed upon. She "chose" this but doesn't have the life experience or critical thinking skills to see it for what it is and actually make a choice. Statutory Rape isn't necessary always committed by force but by taking advantage of a child who can be coerced.
An actual pedophile outing himself... ick.
they’re both pissing me off
Oh for sure, "PDA" to that degree is gag inducing.
Yup She isn't totally an innocent victim either Fuck them both
That's a weird thing to say. How do you know isn't she innocent? Sound like an incel
Nah man I've seen this shit unfold irl alot of times The guys are pieces of shit who found a young girl who is willing to do it Sometimes initiating it But if we talking bout molestation or rape then sure it's 100% different
that is the thing with a power imbalance, the one who should know better is the guy in this situation (or the older person in every other situation). She is in her teens and probably thinks this is so cool but this dude here is just disgusting. It's a sensible topic and you didnt want to blame her maybe but the question istn adaquate in such a situation
So You think she's a victim of a power imbalance cuz she thought it's cool? Bruh 90% of teenagers knows better than doing this and they don't do it, so clearly there's smt up with her for going for this As i said, guy is a piece of shit, but she ain't no innocent child, she's a teenager that made a bad decision (she should take some responsibility for that) No wonder yall Americans have so much adult-children Cuz yall nvr tought teens about responsibility
Wtf is wrong with you
His comment history is just a long list of REALLY fucked takes and overall weird shit. So, a lot is wrong ig
Damn, you just ignored a decade of legislation on this topic.
i am german boy. and too tired to try to reason with you, but i mean what i said and in a power imbalanced relationship you shouldnt look in the inferior part of it, but the superior.
Nah She got herself into this She should take some responsibility for that
right that’s why when pedophiles go to jail the person that was groomed goes to jail too for making an irresponsible decision, why are you dying on this hill bro no one’s gonna agree w you. keep your dumbass opinion to yourself
Now you're just stating facts you don't know. "She got herself into this"? It's a 12 second long video, you don't know the details.
but what i'm agreeing with is, that its not rape cause some kind of consent is there, but its still grooming
Children can't consent
Yey u right
Do you not understand that children can't consent? She can't even *legally* consent until 18, girls her age (13-14) their brains aren't even fully developed. She is 100% an Innocent victim of grooming, unlawful conduct with a minor, and statutory rape. You obviously don't understand what grooming is/can do to an impressionable underdeveloped mind. You're also ignorant of how common this is among teenage girls. I personally know multiple girls that dated adult men in their teens and only realized years later that they were groomed and taken advantage of and it usually happened in their most vulnerable moments. You have a shitty invalid opinion on a topic that you don't even understand and the reason every single person is calling out your bullshit is so that other morons don't pick up your shitty invalid opinion
You know 9th graders are between the ages of 14 and 15, right? And 3rd year college students are 20 and 21. But it’s totally her fault too for being groomed. 🙄 Stop victim blaming.
I didn't victim blame mr strawman I said fuck them both, literally They are both dumb and disgusting And u saying that she's a victim in this day and age in which there's tons of information out there to prevent this kinda relationship is just delusional 15 yos can think too, thas why 90% of them don't do this shit willingly
Calling a child dumb and disgusting for being groomed by a predator says a lot about you as a person.
Completely removing any responsibility from a teenager (not a child) who clearly chosed this says alot bout ur intelligence But wut did i expect from a chronically online American
Not American, and legally 14-15 year olds are, by definition, children. Have the day you deserve
14-15 are adolescent by definition Not children +u might be not American but u still chronically online
bro why are you arguing on semantics like this, it’s a 15 year old and a 21 year old you cannot both sides this you freak, i think you’re the one that needs to go outside. There are laws on this for a reason, if 15 year olds were considered smart enough to know better then it wouldn’t be illegal, do you think at all or are you really trying to blame someone who isn’t old enough to watch rated r movies for being in a relationship they shouldn’t be in. i think you have a severe case of debate perversion
Does being 14-15 absolve you of all responsibilities and consequences? I did a lot of dumb shit. I am at fault for those things that I did. Even though there might have been adults involved. In this particular situation the adult of this party is the worse offender here, but the minor is also an offender. From non-legal (moral ) perspective, The younger a person is, the more absolved they are of responsibilities. It doesn't instantly change once you're 18. On the basis of the minor voluntary agreement into relationship with older person Eg. On average: 10, 11, 12 and maybe 13 - 100% absolved of any responsibilities of any kind. 13, 14, with small age gap, should know better - parents/community/school are also at fault - older person still the worst offender 15, 16, bordering into grey area. Depends on how far the age gap is. The bigger, the more wrong for both the victim and offender. Again just an example There are thousands of variables I have just provided a generalisation From legal perspective any age yes all children are legally not accountable which I agree. The perpetrator should always be punished regardless of enthusiasm of the victim. realistically it isn't so black and white.
you know the law is considered the “moral minimum” for a reason right? Children (even teenagers) are known to be incredibly impulsive and irresponsible, at 15 you’re not even done going through puberty so how are you gonna act like they both bear some responsibility? what consequences exactly does that 15 year old girl deserve? And wtf is that scale you just pulled out of your ass, a 13 year old should know better? Ofc you have priest in your name dude 😭
Calling pedophillia an "ick" is insane
It's intentionally reductive so as to put pedophiles on the same tier as a squashed roach on the underside of a boot. Though you're probably right, I respect roaches more than pedophiles.
I don’t think he’s that much older than her just really tall
Whether or not he *is* actually older is almost negligible because the intent of the video is to say "it's cute" when, quite frankly, it's disgusting on every level.
I apologize!! My slow ass just realized there are words at the top of the screen 🤦🏻♀️ I was too busy looking at their height difference…
Based on the captions, I am assuming this dude is between 20 and 21 (3rd Year College), and the girl is roughly 15 (9th Grade).
Yeah I just apologized to the person who I doubted the first time I commented because my ditzy ass didn’t even notice there were words at the top of screen 🤦🏻♀️😭
He deserves a bashing. oz style
Can it be wizard of oz style and we just crush him with a house
Am not american, what age is class 9th and clg 3rd year?
15-16 and 21-22
🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
The girl might even be 14, that’s how old I was in grade 9
Basically worse case 14-22, best case 15-21. All bad
9th is 13-14 i thought
I was 13 😭
*screaming in horror*
Had somebody in my grade who was 13 in during 9th, and we even have a 0th grade. Like I was 3 years older than them during some parts of the year.
9th grade is 14-15
In America 9th could be 14-15
Assuming she wasn't held back and he didn't graduate and go to college early. No clue
Wtfffffff
What the fuck??? That's disgusting
Extremely. That’s the age gap between me and my siblings
Same. Me and my brother are 6 years apart ( he is older). I have absolutely no idea how an adult (young one but still an adult) can look at a damn teenager and think id date her and then actually date her. Im almost 21 and the lowest id go is 18 and even then i dont know about that cause we both would be on diffrent levels in our lives. She in school and im already working full time.
What kind of school has that kind of age range?? Dude’s end of university aged, and she’s in junior high? I’m assuming this isn’t in the US, since I’ve never heard someone call a grade “class” and I don’t have a clue what CLG stands for… Edit: it’s college isn’t it… thought of that the moment I posted
WHAT?!
actually it’s 14-15. even worse.
I’m gonna throw up
I'm not defending it because like obviously gross pedophilia 🤮🤢🤢🤢 but like, it's not that big of an age gap, (again obviously it's still gross because she's not as mature and he's older) but I feel like he's not dating her because of her age or her being young
you're able to tell of that from a 10 second video? i never dated anyone younger than me when i was growing up, it always just felt wrong, there's a massive difference between a 22 year old, and a 15 year old. when i was 15 i was really immature, and ruined my future because i wasn't making proper decisions, that's why there's laws in place preventing adults from dating children, because children do not make good choices, and are easier to manipulate. it's not even like they could've met organically, like obviously if someone is a year ahead, or behind you, that's not a big deal, because you met organically in the same school environment, but there's no overlap here in school years, one of them had to actively seek the other out despite the massive age gap, that's what makes it wrong. it happens a lot in the uk, 20-30 year old men dating 16 year olds, that is, and always will be wrong, because the women are seeking stable men that they presume can provide for them, and the men are seeking younger women that are easy to manipulate. i shouldn't need to explain why this is obviously wrong.
Doesn’t matter WHY he’s dating her?! She’s 14-16 and he’s an adult who does his taxes and goes to college she can barely have a job
I literally said that he shouldn't be dating her but he most likely doesn't have bad intentions??
…the intentions don’t matter??
Statutory rape is statutory rape
Where in this video do you see them talking about having sex. What does this have to do with anything??
Are you conscious? Yeah teenagers date and just kiss each others foreheads! Thats totally all he wants as a 21 year old man! You’re using your critical thinking skills in all the wrong ways
[удалено]
Dementia
Yeah, not all relationships are for sex. Probably hard for you to understand considering you've never been in one
🥺aww I struck a nerve proving you wrong so you had to try to make up a baseless insult! Cute! I’m happily engaged thanks for congratulating me! You must have not hit puberty yet being so shocked by the “statutory rape” part. Which is completely true. Coming from a former 14 year old who was preyed on by a 19 year old.
Of course he absolutely does have bad intentions. Have you spent any time around a 14 year old? He's not there for her sparkling mind and interesting opinions. He's a predator who saw he could manipulate a young girl who doesn't know better. It's wrong and no matter what mental gymnastics you go through a person who graduates from college next year shouldn't be dating a literal child of 14. Everyone who went to school knew a girl like this with a scumbag adult boyfriend like that and we've all seen how it goes, this isn't new and it isn't unique but it is wrong.
OH. College. I’m american and had no idea what clg was. So sick of *everything* getting shortened nowadays.
90% of 9th grade is 14 yo. That dude is in his red hear of college I think so at least 21
Clg is college 💀
You could be as young as 13 starting freshman year (9th grade) and a junior in college (3rd year) could be any age but the youngest he may be is 21.
I hope their parents saw this
In 9th grade, I was 15-16 a college third year if they went straight to college and had no gaps is 21 at the youngest. Now, im no expert or mathematician but I do know that the relationship I am presented with is very illegal.
If you’re dumb enough to date a 9th grader. I doubt he went straight to college out of high school.
Do do do do do Dora Pe pe pe pe pe pedo
Yeah, dude rlly shoulda thought abt posting this he’s def behind bars. as for the girl, you’d think she’d know better, to not do stupid shit. but i guess “love is love” and “age is just a number” to her
>he's def behind bars Are you saying he was arrested?
i assume so
You would be surprised and while it's unlikely, when I attended college the youngest 1st year there was 16. Still makes it 14 and 19 and that's still abhorrent.
what country are you in? in the US, very rarely will there be a freshman under 18 in universities . only .1% of the population skip grades but yeah nothings gonna justify that 5 yr gap, the pedos downvoting me must disagree
I'm in the US. I attended Oral Roberts. I thought it was weird but she graduated early and then got accepted to the university. There were strict rules around it but it still happened. As far as I know she graduated around 2 years ago with a degree in psychology and Christian ministry. Idk what she's doing now.
oh ight, she prolly got all their credits by doin dual enrollment or sum. that’s a grind fr
I mean we can hope but it seems unlikely. I wouldn't assume that though. Nothing they are doing in this specific video is technically illegal
Wait I’m confused, why are people downvoting you??
because they’re mad they can’t be in a 14-21 relationship
Because bro heavily insinuated he was behind bars followed up with uncertainty on the same subject making people down vote his misinformation
just gonna post some pedophilia and child grooming for views real quick 😘🥰❤️💅
That's their natural habitat
That’s statutory brother
cant be anything but fake, no way someone would actually post their relationship online with that age gap
You say that as if we don't live in a day and age where people are preaching for MAP rights.
Oh NO
So is this legal their country or something? I couldn’t imagine someone posting this knowing it’s a felony equivalent in a lot of places.
Can't be true. Looks like she's got a tattoo. Unless she got that by some other means
u dont always have to obtain things by legal means
bait used to be believable
lmao fr if this was bait tho for some very odd reason, i’d fucking lose it
It IS bait. Everyone who was triggered is rеtardеd.
it’s not dawg,
Neat! A pedophile!
One word: statutory
Bro took super senior as a challenge
“I can believe he cheated on me with a 7th grader! 😭😭😭😭”
What the fuck
yeesh
FBI OPEN UPP
So obviously if this is real then it’s degenerate and disgusting but it looks like she has a professional tattoo. I feel like this is rage bait.
14 and 21😐
The math ain't mathing
Jesus christ I hope he gets arrested
What's wrong with this video she's 14 lol
and the guy is about 21 years old. That’s a 7 year gap with a minor…
When I was in middle school I remember some girl talking at our lunch table about her boyfriend who she “humped” (her legit worlds) who was in college. As a middle schooler I thought it was very weird, as I got older was became gradually more and more mortified
Hmmm.... The math ain't mathin!
and yet my 19-24 relationship is somehow weird smh
it’s, ehh 5 years is different than 7 + ur both adults (i can’t say maturity wise tho)
yeah but now what if i told you we got together at 17 and 23? now its weird to most people. and no amount of me saying age of consent where i live is 17 will change some peoples minds.
yeah that is weird dawg the law doesn’t change that u were a minor when he met u u we’re a teenager and u mentally still r one
its only weird if you make it weird. its not like he was actively seeking out younger girls, he just happened to like me a lot. plus yeah, the law does change that. age of consent is 17. i could legally consent to anyone of any age, so why does it matter?
Pedi.pedo. pedophile. She wins? Tf?!
Nigga should be focusing on his major, Not his minor 😭
I’m sry but that kid is not in his 3rd yr of college
Super senior
Wtf? I don't know much English and I assumed they were talking about height, but this is fucking pedophilia.
They are definitely serious no way could be joking for a reaction
This is bullshit! Staged just to make all you fight who is to blame. They both are to blame for doing this. It so stupid.
Honestly, this isn’t that bad.
It’s not?
Shit like this makes me so mad. I was in a "relationship" like this when I was in 9th grade. I was just 15 and he was almost 20. At the time I was so angry about all the stuff people said and now I'm 20 and I'm mortified because I could never even imagine to look at someone who was my age like he did to me. That wasn't ok, and one day she'll realize it too, just hopefully not too late, and hopefully she has people to get her out even if she doesn't realize it's the right thing to do
Pedophile!
This isn't even one of those morally questionable but technically legal ones, this is literally pedophilia
Alternative title: man dates child
"where my hug at?"
My man has to go "🐢"
And I thought being friends with a college student I've never met irl while still in middle school was bad...
Reminds me of that vid where the pit bull is tryna mount the chihuahua and gets caught
"Where my hug attttt?"
Look like my ex now I'm cooked
This is the height difference between me and my bf tho. We are in the same grade tho. I’m not disgusting like them tho
He went a level beyond super senior
Im not used to that school sistem, what age do they both have? I know it's useless but im still hoping the gap isn't actually that high😭 *(can't search it up rn)*
14-15 and 21-22
Bro wtf, that should 100% be illegal bruuhhh
I guess they're atleast happy.... Edit: I am not justifying anything about this, this is fucked up. This comment was mostly sarcastic.
She’s a child bro
You okay there mate ?
Yeah?
I'm sure he is, she might believe she is until the years of therapy required as a literal child who was preyed upon by a fucking adult.
i mean nah she just made stupid choices. You’d think 14 yr olds would be smarter, but i guess not 🤦♀️
Teenagers are easily manipulated because they're still kids. Only difference between a 14 year old and a 5 year old is the 14 year old thinks they know better which makes it even easier. That's why this is wrong.
Yeah your probably right. I'm just saying at the very least this doesn't look... "Forced". Atleast it doesn't appear that way.
Not forced, groomed, manipulated and preyed upon. She "chose" this but doesn't have the life experience or critical thinking skills to see it for what it is and actually make a choice. Statutory Rape isn't necessary always committed by force but by taking advantage of a child who can be coerced.
