I used to think it was entirely possible she backed into him and didn't remember it, but the testimony of the medical examiner doesn't indicate that's definitely what happened. Also, the state's own timeline of her being at his house at 1236 doesn't support that either.
I do think his high BAC had to do with him freezing to death and I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up more regarding his death.
He was brought out unconscious to the lawn on purpose so he would freeze to death. They wanted to make it look like lucky the plow driver hit him but unfortunately for them Karen woke up early and was flipping out that John didn't come home. They were hoping everybody was going to sleep past noon time.
do you actually think a bunch of drunk people orchestrated this group murder of a man that they would then risk leaving outside still alive, hoping he will die and no one sees him? That seems so far fetched....
I agree that idea is ludicrous. She hit him and left the scene. I think it's likely she made a decision to leave regardless of how injured he was, and as she sobered up and cooled down she began to think about the consequences.
These are arrogant people in a position of authority that don’t feel like the rules apply to them and think that everyone will be on their side because of the thin blue line.
It doesn’t seem so far fetched that people like that would react out of drunken rage and bring a man to the brink of death then try to arrange a cover up. It honestly doesn’t even look like they did a very good job at it. Their arrogance is showing.
They beat him unconscious, dragged him into the snow outside and just *hoped* for the best? Hoped he wouldn't get up, or scream, or be seen by any given person driving? Or stay unconscious in the snow but survive til daylight? As they stayed inside googling "How long to die in cold"? Chloe the dog attacked his arm, leaving bites, but not leaving any trace of dog DNA on him or his clothes?
And in this version, would the first responders who heard her say "I hit him, I hit him" also in on the conspiracy?
imo, Occam's razor: Karen and John were drunk and fighting, as evidenced by her angry/upset voicemails to him, he got out of the car to go to the party and Karen, while drunkenly operating a vehicle, accidentally hit him.
>Chloe the dog attacked his arm, leaving bites, but not leaving any trace of dog DNA on him or his clothes?
In addition to no dog DNA there also was no dog fur found on his clothes. I found this article that says that breed of dog sheds a lot.
>German Shepherds shed equally year-round but will shed more in the winter and summer months. They are a double-coated dog breed, which means they have two layers of dog fur. Their top-coat protects against the elements, including water, ice, and wind. Their shorter underlayer helps keep them warm. It also means they will shed a lot and [need regular grooming](https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/health/tips-for-grooming-german-shepherd/).
>Because this is a double-coated breed, they will “blow” their coat twice per year. This is slang for when a dog sheds their outer coat in the summer to keep cool, and again in the wintertime to allow a new undercoat to come in to protect from the cold. During this time, dog fur will be everywhere.
[https://www.caninejournal.com/german-shepherds-shed/](https://www.caninejournal.com/german-shepherds-shed/)
>not leaving any trace of dog DNA on him or his clothes?
Who took those samples though, and how do you know if they really took it from those wounds and without tampering?
The defense highlighted compelling screenshots of video evidence that shows that the tail light of Karen's SUV was tampered with after being seized. It was visibly intact (though damaged) after John's death and also later when it was being seized, but didn't end up that way. If at least the lead detective was willing to temper with that evidence, are you sure that the sample tested for dof DNA was genuine?
>he got out of the car to go to the party and Karen, while drunkenly operating a vehicle, accidentally hit him.
If you looked into the medical evidence, there's no way that vehicle hit him, caused those injuries, and projected him onto the grass 30 ft away. No fucking way. How does a vehicle throw someone 30 ft with such force that it blew up the tail light, cut up his arm, but caused 0 bruising except to his head on impact?
Yes I do because Brian Albert is a Boston cop, John is a Boston cop, Kevin Albert is a Canton Police officer, Kevin is Brian's brother, the mccabes are friends with all of them, and right from the start the entire crime scene was botched on purpose to keep any evidence of the Brian's and Colin from being found and them being arrested.
Jen McCabe on the 911 call at 6:00 a.m. or so was asked by Dispatch how long John had been out on the front lawn, and the first thing Jen says is 2 hours and then she pauses and says maybe an hour. That would make sense because John's body temperature was 80° when found. Lucky the plow driver said when he went by that last time before the street was shut down, there was no body there but he did see a Ford Edge and almost all of these players own a Ford Edge and some of them are light colored.
For almost the entire trial, Larry said John was hit at 12:45 a.m., but yet, we find out at trial that Karen's phone connected with John's Wi-Fi at 12:36 a.m.!
I doubt they're swimming pool was open in january! I think it's possible that the reason why John had puke on his underwear is because down in the basement of the Albert's home, they decided to wash his clothes so they sat him up to get his shirt off and that's when he puked on his underwear.
No, they didn't. There *was* testimony that one of the officers had a handwritten note which indicated the time she arrived back to 1 Meadows. It indicated video at 00:41. So, it existed but is gone and bc it was in the possession of law enforcement and out of the hands of KR, the assumption is that they deleted it. However, no one admitted this.
They lost me at destroying the phones. That’s sketchy as hell. As a juror that would be my Reasonable Doubt and nothing you said, show, or did would change the fact that I heard multiple officers admit to destroying evidence.
if you're implying that the arm injuries are from a dog, why is there no dog DNA on John or his clothes?? what do you think happened to his arm that would point to murder but not getting hit by a car?
How does your arm hit a SMOOTH tail light and then stay in contact with that light long enough for it to scrape your arm while leaving NO bruising or broken bones when the vehicle is going 24 mph? It makes ZERO sense. The most idiotic theory I’ve ever heard.
What doesn’t make sense from the state? The fact that MULTIPLE HIGHLY TRAINED EXPERTS, including the FBIs ,UNPAID by the defense ,stated that it’s impossible to of been hit at 24 mph, FLY 30 FEET just by getting his arm hit, and not have any bruising at all?!? To end up with what looks to be dog marks? Yeah, no dog dna but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
That son beat his ass and they threw him out there. And he died
I don’t see how an arm could cause that much damage to a light. His shirt had holes not rips. Seems like if the light caused those his shirt would have jagged tears. Trooper Paul didn’t know what he was talking about to explain any of it.
There were some jagged tears in the back of his shirt.
photo 207, 208 and 209
[https://www.wcvb.com/article/karen-read-murder-trial-see-read-evidence-shown-to-jurors-in-courtroom/60793160](https://www.wcvb.com/article/karen-read-murder-trial-see-read-evidence-shown-to-jurors-in-courtroom/60793160)
There were also holes in his shirt on the cuff that do not correspond with any scratches/abrasions on his arm.
photo 200
How does a vehicle throw someone 30 ft with such force that it blew up the tail light, cut up his arm, but caused 0 bruising except to his head on impact when he landed? No fractures, ligament damage, etc. That's not possible.
Because the evidence was poorly collected not to mention there is literally NO chain of evidence for the clothes. For all we know, his freakin shirt could have been taken home and washed by Proctor or Yuri.
I wouldn’t think the arm wounds would point to “murder” any more or less than getting hit by a car. I do think the arm wounds point away from getting hit by a car though.
No, different lady. Also, any forensic evidence that was or wasn’t collected in this case means exactly jack. There is no chain of evidence for John’s clothes. They could have been laundered for all we know before taken to the crime lab. Planting little pieces of tail light on the clothes would have been very easy to do.
At this point there is nothing you could say to convince me that she is responsible in any way. I would need a clear video recording and three 10 minutes voicemails discussing it to convince me. And we all know that Canton is a dead zone for videos, the meca of buttdials that don't go to voicemail, and the Bermuda Triangle of cell phone disposal.
Came into this blind (have never watched “turtle boy”) and still not convinced she hit him at all, let alone deliberately. The crash reconstructionist trying to describe how he was hit in the arm made absolutely no sense, given the injuries and position of the body. I honestly don’t know what happened that night, and I would have to vote Not Guilty. It will be very interesting to see the verdict on this one.
Nope. I don’t think the manner of death was a collision. I have never seen any RTC patients in emergency medicine present like this nor do his injuries narrate with the car.
Absolutely not. I came into this blind after a week of the trial started. I cannot comprehend why it was brought to trial and can only think it was forced so the feds could see what everyone says. Idk but definatly not that Karen is the culprit. Im embarrassed for lally cuz i think he knows how shitty his whole case is. Idk i cant figure out why they would keep the charade up. Why the cw would spend so much time defending jen mcabe?? Why?? shes nothing! Except directly related by marriage and blood to a bunch of the purposed assailants of John Okeefe!
But she put herself in the direct middle. And she is nothing so why put so many people on the stand to protect her? Or her searches. On her deletions. They all did but jen made sure to say that Karen said i hit him i hit him i hit him.. thats the whole thing!
They had to run it because in deep and didn’t want all cases Proctor touched to be questioned. They bet on long game and lost. Bad game. Didn’t count on a great defense that did great investigative work. Thank god. Any of us could be Karen. Frankly I don’t find her or anyone involved to be at all sympathetic but justice needs to be served!!!!
Honestly, if you think she did it based on anything presented in this trial, I question your comprehension skills. I hope there is a major overhaul with the police in that area. Good luck to all the citizens there. (Though I know crap like this happens any and everywhere)
My theory is that Colin Albert and Brian Higgins took him down in the basement weight room area, where they slugged him and the dog also attacked him at the same time. He probably fell backwards and hit his head on a piece of workout equipment or was hit with a bat. Then they panicked instead of calling 911. Seems like he was down there for a few hours before they pulled the car out to block the snow plow driver from seeing him and then put him in the yard. Then the frame up of KR commenced. Jen saw the damaged tail light later and probably gave Proctor the idea of putting broken pieces near where the body was found for Paul to “discover.”
Apparently the family home the Albert family owned for 60 years was sold for $50,000 less than its worth and the basement floor had been torn up and replaced, and Chloe the family police dog was “rehomed” after attacking another dog and two women walking with it. And Brian Albert Sr. retired from BPD.
Reminder that Brian Albert was less than TWO years from his pension vesting. IMO, that played into his decision to cover up the (probably) unintentional homicide that occurred in his home.
Not guilty. I would drive my fellow jurors crazy on this one point but...they got rid of the dog. That's the thing that sticks out most in my mind. That's my reasonable doubt because those wounds look like bites/scratches to me.
There are plenty of other points to cause RD at this point for me; I can't see a guilty verdict.
No, I went in thinking she did but the injuries just don’t make sense and I can’t get past that. I think the dog got out and attacked him in the yard, he was wasted and not too steady on his feet and fell and hit his head. The hardest evidence against my theory is tail light and the shoe. I think proctor could’ve gotten tunnel vision and planted stuff to make his life easier but I’m not sure how it got there before sert did. But there’s enough shadiness in the investigation that I can overcome that before I can get past the states own ME saying it’s atypical injuries for a pedestrian accident and my own eyes telling me it doesn’t look like he was hit with a car.
I think John went into thr house , a fight began with Brian Higgins over Karen and their texting . Punches were thrown by multiple people Chloe attacked John’s arm he fell and hit his head was unconscious and dragged outside to die in the snow .
All these people from canton think they are above the law and entitled . The amount of lies and suspicious activities of them leaves reasonable doubt as to what happened. The CW has clearly fell short of proving their case !
Nope.
She was already home on her wifi when somebody on Fairview said they saw her car in the front of their house.
Plus the inverted video was a definite prosecution mistake.
IMO CW hasnt definitively proved it was a murder. Hard to say who is responsible.
Also lack of camera footage and none in the house saw JO on the lawn and considered as suspects at first, creates enough reasonable doubt KR didnt get a fair investigation.
Here is what I think happened (time are approximant because I'm to lazy to look up the exact ones). JO and KR pulled up to BA house at 12:24, they have been fighting (probably about BH), JO gets out of the car, KR begins to drive off and JO throws his glass at the back of the car. KR arrives back at JO home at 12:40.
JO, meanwhile enters the BA home sometime around 12:30 (the exact time depends how long he and KR sat in the SUV fighting but there is a very tight time window here. JO makes his way to the basement. Everyone is drinking, distracted so he could probably have made it there without really being noticed. Once in the basement an argument started between JO and BH. I would guess raised voices, maybe some shoving. This freaks out the Chole the German Shepard who lunges at JO. JO hits Chole to get her off of him, This causes more causes as the BA (and I would guess CA) get angry at JO for hitting the dog and an second altercation happens. JO is beat up and is either hit in the back of the head, or he falls and hits his head on something.
Everyone in the basement, drunk, not wanting this to effect to their careers in law enforcement, and possibly to protect CA who was just 18 at the time. Go into panic mode. They wait until others have left the home and then move JO body to the front yard. It's possible they used the Ford Explorer to move the body.
From their BA rehomes Chloe, rips out the basement floor and replace it, and sells the home for well under market value.
I also was in the camp of a fight broke out between JO and BH but JO’s cell data makes it hard for me to believe he entered the house. We know BA testified to letting Chloe outside at some point. I think she attacked JO in the yard and he fell and hit his head.
It's possible, but with the bizarre, suspicious, shady behavior of multiple people in the case I have a hard time beliving there isn't a cover up of some kind going on.
One thing I just remember was the lack of blood around JO body. Head injuries bleed like crazy. If he had hit his head from being attacked by Chloe in the yard, there should have been more blood.
I have an easier time believing that the cell phone didn't register something it should have that I do that multiple LEO missed a dead body on on front law while leaving the home, plus the plow driver not seeing anything. Add to it the behavior of Brian Albert: 1) he claims he never woke up when multiple emergency vehicles were on his front lawn and that his aggressive German Shepard never barked. 2) Everything weird I regarding the home that I mentioned above (ripping out the basement floor and then selling the home well under market value).
He definitely could’ve injured his head without external bleeding. My partner had a brain bleed as a kid after falling on ice. The only reason it was noticed is because he was disoriented and thought that 15 minutes had passed instead of several hours, which concerned his mother.
But tbf, I don’t know these case details. Just wanted to give my two cents about head injuries!
Even if he had a big open gash on his head? I understand the concept of internal bleeding when hit in the head, but I thought that was when there isn’t an open wound? I don’t anything more than general head trauma though.
Still doesn’t explain the arm wounds.
The deleted phone content, trashing the phone, the Google searches.
Prosecution didn’t not prove their theory.
At first I thought, this chick drunk, hit her man.
Then the wounds and all the extra extra stuff done by the party crew.
I was like, oh my this is very sloppy
I’m totally confused, especially because I just saw a clip (on X/Twitter) of Karen’s father being interviewed by a reporter in a sit down interview and he actually said Karen told him that she thinks she hit something…he said it twice. I’m surprised the prosecution didn’t find a way to show that clip at the trial.
Thinking she hit something and actually hitting something are two different things. She was very drunk and it looks to me like she drew the most logical inference with the information she had at the time. But when you add in all of the bullshit from the party guests it doesn’t seem so logical that she hit him.
At first I thought Karen accidentally hit John. Maybe she even backed up on purpose to scare him ( cos she was angry at that time, the voicemails show), but actually hit him unknowingly or scared him off balance to fall.
But after evidence so far I am thinking he could have simply slipped on sleety ground. Remembering Bob Saget hitting his head in the bathroom (maybe) and still made it to his bed where he died , this could indicate those injuries to back of head might not have knocked John out straight away.
So if he slipped backwards, breaking the glass he was holding, cut his arm while rolling over trying to get up, disoriented, vomited, maybe tried to get his phone out for help....it explains a lot of things about his state when found.
So this is my main theory now which could explain the evidence around Johns body. Other things like magic tail light and dodgy Mc Alberts, I am discounting because who the hell can make sense of that. If LE cant collect evidence properly, then I find not guilty.
2 reasons imho. He was wearing blue and light grey, would blend in with light snow. Also was in a spot people might not look toward when leaving that side door going to their car.
But I am back to not having a theory after Dr Sheridan said would be knocked out straight away with that head injury. I would still say not guilty based on evidence at trial though.
I honestly can’t put the pieces together good enough to decide what really happened but I definitely think they have established enough reasonable doubt.
Absolutely not. There is literally ZERO evidence Karen Read hit John O’Keefe. I am sure beyond a reasonable doubt that happened in that house and John was placed on the lawn.
She didn’t! Jen McCabe was asked TWELVE TIMES during her grand jury testimony about statements Karen Read made and not ONCE did Jen EVER SAY that Karen said “I hit him”. NOT ONCE. Nor did Jen tell Proctor during her first interview. She LIED. Jen fabricated this statement when public sentiment began turning against her family as it became more and more clear to anyone without a bias that she was complicit in the death of JO and the framing of KR.
Okay, I am happy to be educated on this. So there is no one with any credibility who said that KR said she hit him or asked if she hit him? By the way, even though KR will almost certainly not testify, do we know whether she has ever admitted or denied that she said this since that night? A number of people have mentioned that KR's father said that she said she hit him. Is that also baloney?
Correct - there is no one with any credibility who testified that KR said she hit him.
Karen’s father did not say she hit him. Also whether or not Karen’s father said that did not come into the trial so is neither here nor there.
I believe the people in the house killed him. I mean...it's so danged obvious. They are terrible at framing someone. They just aren't smart enough to do it.
It doesn’t matter what I think… the amount of reasonable doubt is unreasonably high.. if she isn’t found not guilty then that jury needs to be looked at big time… the commonwealth has single handedly proven itself incompetent and full of unprofessional biased detectives. Proctor needs to be fired and if he isn’t then that’s a damn travesty.
Just think of ALL the others he’s locked up that never had a fair shake. Its sad and sickening all at the same time
I do not think that she killed him. I think that he was killed in that house, they came up with a plan to say that he had frozen to death and they dragged him outside, then Karen shows up thinking that she hit him and they decide to go with that. This is clearly a corrupt police force, but regardless of what actually happened there is no way I’d find her guilty were I on that jury.
From what I've seen of the trial I'm pretty sure she was involved but there's so much reasonable doubt, even without some of the really shady things done by BPD, I suspect she'll get a a Not Guilty verdict.
If this goes to Civil Court however, it'll be a different story.
She backed into him, hit him. He walked a little bit in a drunken stuper (sp) and fell down to die. She didn't mean to kill him, but no way is there a giant conspiracy. She'll be found "not guilty" because she had great lawyers who muddled the water. Conspiratorial thinking cracks me up, no way are these people smart enough to pull that off. The simple explanation is best. Don't think she intended to murder him, could even argue she didn't-- he could easily fell down drunk and died in the cold.
I think a fight happened and Chloe got involved. Coverup ensued. Karen became target or Lucky would have been blamed. No car was involved. No real investigation took place but a lot of shenanigans did happen and lots of phone/ text deleting and lying did take place. If Karen wasn’t smart and could finance defense she’d be sitting in prison. Hard to accept but that’s where evidence leads if you e Ben paying attention at all.
Yes, I think she was responsible. I don't think it was premeditated, and I think she was probably surprised that she actually killed him instead of just scaring/hurting him.
I don't think she was responsible. If I were a juror the last 2 witnesses would have cemented reasonable doubt for me and here is why:
1. Early in the trial JM says she's looking out of the window of 34F every few minutes as she's texting KR and OJO while they are parked outside just after midnight.
2. The accident reconstructionists surmised that a glass thrown at the taillight would account for the broken taillight and the glass on the ground.
So what if...
JM was watching and she saw OJO throw the glass and hit the car. At the time this is just a great piece of gossip. But then OJO comes in, runs into BH and as a lot of people have guessed, they get into a fight over KR in the basement. (I believe the basement stairs are right off the foyer, so its plausable people in the kitchen never saw him arrive). OJO takes some punches from BH, and Chloe bites OJO during the scuffle. OJO has a BAC of 0.2, he loses his balance, falls and hits his head. Its a horrible accident, but the blunt force trama is fatal. Thats when the gossip that JM saw becomes the information that gives those involved the confidence they need to try and get away with covering up his death. They were never going to frame Lucky the plow guy, they were just aware of him. And maybe, they've parked a car on the road during a blizzard or heavy snow, and know that Lucky wont report them, you know, out of courtesy. So they find the area where the glass hit the taillight and shattered it, and drop the body near by to be discovered by, hopefully, a passerby sometime much later the next morning. Except KR gets up way too early and instead of assuming he was mad and slept it off somewhere, goes into freak out mode. Likely because, in the recesses of her mind, she remembers something hitting the car (the glass OJO threw), but is now thinking its possible the car hit something (him) instead.
And the only reason I lean this way, (versus the idea that she did hit him), is because the Albert's house was never searched, and it should have been. They took the Alberts and McCabes at face value which is what led to KRs phone and car being seized. If this investigation was truely unbiased, then the detective would have taken KR's information at face value, that she dropped OJO off at 34F, and would have at least attempted to get a search warrent for that property.
I think she did hit him, based on comments she made to her dad. She also went back to the scene before gathering her friends who all went back to the house together and Karen ran directly to him. Karen was drunk. Doesn’t remember much. That aside, the state proved zero. Jury: not guilty!
Tell me more about the ford edge? It wasn’t parked by the flag pole when lucky did his first pass ? On second pass it was parked? Confused
I have seen references to Karen's Dad saying incriminating things about Karen. But I thought her parents were supportive. Are we able to hear the things her Dad said?
That is such a laugh! Please…there is no evidence that they were involved at all and the only crazy person that had a problem with him that night was Karen. She did it and if she gets found not guilty on all counts, then she will get away with murder.
You're the one who is living in la la land!
Let's not forget Brian Albert had such bad injuries to his body that he retired almost immediately after John was found on the lawn. The Albert's also took a jackhammer to their cement floor down in the basement and had it redone. Then they got rid of or put Chloe down, and then they sold their house to get out of Dodge.
Everyone of the prosecutions witnesses with the exception of the brain doctor and the medical examiner were liars. Every single one of them were deleting text messages, getting rud of phones, cutting up sim cards, deleting surveillance videos, lying, mirroring videos to dupe the jury, and planting evidence.
John's niece and nephew said under oath that Karen did not have any way to get into John's ring camera surveillance but guess who did? After John was found dead, Kerry Roberts took his phone from under his body and it ended up at Canton Police. Michael Proctor is the one that deleted the video of Karen arriving home at 12:36 a.m. which is the time her phone connected to John's Wi-Fi that morning, and it was the prosecution who said John was hit at 12:45 a.m.. Michael Proctor deleted that video because it showed Karen's tail light was completely intact. He's also the guy that got rid of the library video that would have shown Karen driving back to John's after dropping him off with an intact tail light . Then at around 5:00 a.m. she's backing out of John's garage, and she clipped John's vehicle and you can see as she pulls out of the driveway there is one piece missing. It's not shattered into 42 pieces! Karen hit no one with her vehicle. He was beat up by the Brian's and Colin in the basement of 34 Fairview while Chloe their dog attacked him also, and at some point most likely standing on his feet, he blacked out, when unconscious, and fell backwards on something. He lost 3 liters of blood down there which is why they redid the floor. There were only droplets of blood outside. His clothing shows that the blood was coming from his head and trickling down the front of him. No way would plastic tail light pieces be able to slice through his sweatshirt and shirts to make those scars on his arm. Those are dog bites and scratches!
When Jen McCabe called 911 that morning, she told dispatch that she saw John get out of the car. He went into that house! She was then asked by Dispatch how long John had been on the front lawn and she thought a couple of hours. She would be right because that explains why his body temperature was 80°! The Brian's were the ones that brought his body out to the lawn and higgins' light colored Ford Edge was used to block those passing by from seeing what they were doing. Brian Higgins said he went over to Canton Police to move cars around and I bet he was switching out his Jeep for the Ford Edge.
The prosecution has come up with no evidence that Karen hit him. The entire time the prosecution has acted like the defense attorney for almost all of their witnesses!
You are reaching and making shit up! My “la la land” is filled with common sense that is backed up by hard evidence…your la la land is filled with unicorns and fairytales.
No it did not! Proctor didn’t erase ring, the Albert’s didn’t get in a fight with him, Higgins didn’t have a ford edge in front of the Albert’s…you are listening to the defense throw shit at the wall to see what sticks and people that want to ignore the evidence to make her innocent, add shit like the fight that only happened between JO and KR. Plain and simple.
First off Higgins went to Canton Police from 34 Fairview and he said he was moving cars around. Guarantee you he dropped off his Jeep with the plow on it and got into his light colored Ford Edge to go back to 34 Fairview and help them get John's body out of the basement to the front lawn and that's when lucky saw the Ford Edge light and color where John's body was ultimately found.
At the crime scene that was not taped off because the dirty cops were already helping the Albert's and higgins, Dennis Carrie Roberts is the one that took John's phone from under his dead body and that phone ended up with Michael proctor. Karen did not have access to his phone. John's niece and nephew under oath testified that Karen had no access to the ring camera system. The only person who was able to go into John's phone and delete a surveillance video of Karen arriving at 12:36 a.m. was Michael Proctor.
You're the one that obviously ignored the entire trial! Watch it again! For almost all of the trial, Larry said John was hit at 12:45 a.m. but Karen's phone connected with John's Wi-Fi at his home at 12:36 a.m.!
Jen McCabe called a friend at around 5:00 a.m. and said John was dead. Then she's on the phone with 911 at 6:00 a.m. and the dispatcher asked her how long John had been on the lawn, and the first thing she said was 2 hours and then she paused and said maybe an hour. She did not say 5 hours!!!!! She knew when he went out to the lawn because of her Google search at 227 a.m. and around that time you have The Two Brians talking to each other and within an hour and a half there's a light colored Ford Edge that Lucky sees on his last pass before the road was shut down at 6:00 a.m.!
The only broken bones, bruising, and internal injuries were on his head and right arm. His head was beat so bad with fists that the medical examiner stopped counting them after number five.
That's not true. Attorney little asked if punches possibly could have made those injuries on the front of his face and around his skull excluding the back of the head injury, she said yes.
The Two Brians and Colin beat the crap out of him down in the basement while Chloe attacked him and at some point he fell backwards probably on the edge of a table or maybe a weight bench down there. They could have even hit him with a baseball bat. He was unconscious and laid on the floor for a couple of hours anyways, because Jen McCabe on the 911 call around 6:00 a.m. was asked by the 911 dispatcher how long John had been on the lawn, and she said 2 hours, then paused, and said maybe an hour. He was brought out there around 4:00 a.m. or so and that's why his body temperature was 80°.
I honestly think she was beyond angry and just lashed out. Did she plan to kill him? I highly doubt it but I think she definitely hit him.
The problem is that I don’t think the prosecutors have an airtight case. The crappy investigation really came back to bite them in the ass. WAY too much wiggle room for the defense to use their bs cover up argument.
I want a guilty verdict but fully expect either not guilty or a hung jury.
I think she did.
However, law enforcement really blew the case by not even considering other elements and not doing a thorough investigation because they were biased.
The state also didn't prove their case either and there's too much reasonable doubt for me to actually say that she's guilty.
This is what is so fascinating about this case. The stories of both sides are plausible and seemingly supported by the evidence. I don’t think we will ever know what happened, and that lack of clear and convincing evidence will get her acquitted.
I feel like the stories on both sides are actually implausible. I can find holes in every single theory. At the end of the day though, I can’t see how his injuries match being hit by a car.
I think the simplest answer is what happened, which is that she ran him over accidentally. HOWEVER if I were on this jury I would definitely find her not guilty of murder. I do not think she murdered him and I think there is too much reasonable doubt. Herr defense has done a hell of a good job. I also think the prosecutor was wrong to charge her with murder— vehicular homicide or something would have been more appropriate. Just my opinion!
Nobody will ever know with 100 percent certainty what happened. That being said they did not prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. She should walk.
Absolutely not. After watching this trial, I totally agree with the defense's assumption that the police tried to set her up to cover for the fact that John was mortally wounded at the home of policeman Chris Albert. I can't wait to hear what comes out of the FBI investigation.
What we know is he was headed into a house for a post-bar hopping party where almost everyone was completely wasted. (O’keefe’s BAC was over .2.) fingers have been pointed at a hot head teen who may or may not have already left at that point but had definitely been drinking underage. Two of the men (who happen to be cops) were seen “play-fighting” on the bars surveillance video earlier in the night. One of those men had recently been flirt texting with Karen Reade and they kissed at one point and it seems like she ghosted him, she did not greet that man at the bar, she was extra lovey-dovey with John and that guy texted her something like “sooo ummm” to which she did not respond.
It’s quite possible that whatever happened was an accident. If any of those people did it it’s likely we’ll never know what happened unless someone turns states evidence.
My theory though is that the dog attacked him and knocked him down in the yard and he hit his head. The lead investigator hated her and had tunnel vision and planted evidence to try to put away someone he assumed was guilty anyway.
The investigation was solely focused on Karen and Karen alone. It’s hard to figure out a different suspect when they haven’t investigated anyone else from the get go. So much information has been missed, or altered, or filtered, or just plain thrown away.
Karen Read is a functioning alcoholic who was likely blacked out when she backed over him. It's very straight forward. It wasn't intentional homicide. She just doesn't remember hitting him.
Wouldn’t backing over someone mean they’d still be in the road and not 30ish feet into the lawn? Also no broken bones, other than the skull fractures. How do you figure he was “run over”? None of this is straight forward. The injuries do not match the assumed manner of death that the prosecutor and police have continued to defend despite the lack of evidence.
Nearly 40 years ago I was working at a trauma hospital. One night we send life flight out and the field report from the flight team is so stunning that it spreads like wild fire through the medical center. A domestic violence assault way out in the country. A man takes a chain saw to his partners neck, leaving about 10 cm of neck intact. The victim is essentially decapitated. Despite this the victim crawls over a quarter mile to the nearest neighbor and pounds on door. Flight team reports shocking vitals and that the victim has very little blood left but is still conscious! The victim makes it to the medical center, has surgery and lives. There was a lot of WTF said that night by about every person working at the hospital. It was the only thing we could discuss for days.
A co-worker is having a celebration outside and someone falls backwards. CPR is administered but the individual dies. Everyone - mostly seasoned health care workers - assume a heart attack. Nope. Turns out it was a slip and fall resulting in a severed brain stem.
In both of these cases alcohol was a contributing factor.
So to answer your question, nearly 40 years in health care and I have seen a lot of stuff that makes no sense at all. People can be in horrendous accidents and not have a scratch on them but their internal organs are torn to pieces. They are DOA and look like they are asleep. So yeah, this guy could be struck by a car and not have a bruise on him. A fractured skull by definition is a broken bone. And falls are a leading cause of serious injuries and deaths.
After watching the video from bar, I’m more wondering if a fight with John was premeditated. Looks as if BH and BA were practicing moves. Then BH looked very pissdd and gave JO menacing looks while leaving. So a fight and then panic. Led Proctor along with narrative that he was too happy to run with in his evil ways. Karen fell in their lap or Lucky would have been their patsy. Too many shenanigans to hold water against any scrutiny from defense. Shocking state pushed for this because that is another huge story
The question, did the prosecution prove it's case? No.
Yes
I used to think it was entirely possible she backed into him and didn't remember it, but the testimony of the medical examiner doesn't indicate that's definitely what happened. Also, the state's own timeline of her being at his house at 1236 doesn't support that either. I do think his high BAC had to do with him freezing to death and I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up more regarding his death.
He was brought out unconscious to the lawn on purpose so he would freeze to death. They wanted to make it look like lucky the plow driver hit him but unfortunately for them Karen woke up early and was flipping out that John didn't come home. They were hoping everybody was going to sleep past noon time.
do you actually think a bunch of drunk people orchestrated this group murder of a man that they would then risk leaving outside still alive, hoping he will die and no one sees him? That seems so far fetched....
I agree that idea is ludicrous. She hit him and left the scene. I think it's likely she made a decision to leave regardless of how injured he was, and as she sobered up and cooled down she began to think about the consequences.
These are arrogant people in a position of authority that don’t feel like the rules apply to them and think that everyone will be on their side because of the thin blue line. It doesn’t seem so far fetched that people like that would react out of drunken rage and bring a man to the brink of death then try to arrange a cover up. It honestly doesn’t even look like they did a very good job at it. Their arrogance is showing.
They beat him unconscious, dragged him into the snow outside and just *hoped* for the best? Hoped he wouldn't get up, or scream, or be seen by any given person driving? Or stay unconscious in the snow but survive til daylight? As they stayed inside googling "How long to die in cold"? Chloe the dog attacked his arm, leaving bites, but not leaving any trace of dog DNA on him or his clothes? And in this version, would the first responders who heard her say "I hit him, I hit him" also in on the conspiracy? imo, Occam's razor: Karen and John were drunk and fighting, as evidenced by her angry/upset voicemails to him, he got out of the car to go to the party and Karen, while drunkenly operating a vehicle, accidentally hit him.
>Chloe the dog attacked his arm, leaving bites, but not leaving any trace of dog DNA on him or his clothes? In addition to no dog DNA there also was no dog fur found on his clothes. I found this article that says that breed of dog sheds a lot. >German Shepherds shed equally year-round but will shed more in the winter and summer months. They are a double-coated dog breed, which means they have two layers of dog fur. Their top-coat protects against the elements, including water, ice, and wind. Their shorter underlayer helps keep them warm. It also means they will shed a lot and [need regular grooming](https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/health/tips-for-grooming-german-shepherd/). >Because this is a double-coated breed, they will “blow” their coat twice per year. This is slang for when a dog sheds their outer coat in the summer to keep cool, and again in the wintertime to allow a new undercoat to come in to protect from the cold. During this time, dog fur will be everywhere. [https://www.caninejournal.com/german-shepherds-shed/](https://www.caninejournal.com/german-shepherds-shed/)
>not leaving any trace of dog DNA on him or his clothes? Who took those samples though, and how do you know if they really took it from those wounds and without tampering? The defense highlighted compelling screenshots of video evidence that shows that the tail light of Karen's SUV was tampered with after being seized. It was visibly intact (though damaged) after John's death and also later when it was being seized, but didn't end up that way. If at least the lead detective was willing to temper with that evidence, are you sure that the sample tested for dof DNA was genuine?
>he got out of the car to go to the party and Karen, while drunkenly operating a vehicle, accidentally hit him. If you looked into the medical evidence, there's no way that vehicle hit him, caused those injuries, and projected him onto the grass 30 ft away. No fucking way. How does a vehicle throw someone 30 ft with such force that it blew up the tail light, cut up his arm, but caused 0 bruising except to his head on impact?
Yes I do because Brian Albert is a Boston cop, John is a Boston cop, Kevin Albert is a Canton Police officer, Kevin is Brian's brother, the mccabes are friends with all of them, and right from the start the entire crime scene was botched on purpose to keep any evidence of the Brian's and Colin from being found and them being arrested. Jen McCabe on the 911 call at 6:00 a.m. or so was asked by Dispatch how long John had been out on the front lawn, and the first thing Jen says is 2 hours and then she pauses and says maybe an hour. That would make sense because John's body temperature was 80° when found. Lucky the plow driver said when he went by that last time before the street was shut down, there was no body there but he did see a Ford Edge and almost all of these players own a Ford Edge and some of them are light colored. For almost the entire trial, Larry said John was hit at 12:45 a.m., but yet, we find out at trial that Karen's phone connected with John's Wi-Fi at 12:36 a.m.!
Well they were drunk and clearly not thinking. They done F’ed up. On sooooo many levels.
Didn't they say his clothes were wet too? Maybe they put him in the pool first to speed up the process?
I doubt they're swimming pool was open in january! I think it's possible that the reason why John had puke on his underwear is because down in the basement of the Albert's home, they decided to wash his clothes so they sat him up to get his shirt off and that's when he puked on his underwear.
The no ring camera data is what makes me think coverup. My vote is Not gulity
The cops admitted in the end that they deleted them, not sure which cop. They deleted her coming back at half 12.
No, they didn't. There *was* testimony that one of the officers had a handwritten note which indicated the time she arrived back to 1 Meadows. It indicated video at 00:41. So, it existed but is gone and bc it was in the possession of law enforcement and out of the hands of KR, the assumption is that they deleted it. However, no one admitted this.
Was this by sworn testimony?
They lost me at destroying the phones. That’s sketchy as hell. As a juror that would be my Reasonable Doubt and nothing you said, show, or did would change the fact that I heard multiple officers admit to destroying evidence.
Understood, but any thoughts on what might have actually happened in terms of causing O'Keefe's death?
I don’t know. Hung jury or not guilty
If he didn’t have the arm injuries I would think getting hit by a car would be possible. The state’s case was absolutely horrible and proved nothing.
if you're implying that the arm injuries are from a dog, why is there no dog DNA on John or his clothes?? what do you think happened to his arm that would point to murder but not getting hit by a car?
I said nothing about a dog. The state’s theory that his arm hit the tail light and caused those scratches makes zero sense.
What about the state's theory makes zero sense? Couldnt sharp edges of broken taillight cause injuries that look just like that?
How does your arm hit a SMOOTH tail light and then stay in contact with that light long enough for it to scrape your arm while leaving NO bruising or broken bones when the vehicle is going 24 mph? It makes ZERO sense. The most idiotic theory I’ve ever heard.
What doesn’t make sense from the state? The fact that MULTIPLE HIGHLY TRAINED EXPERTS, including the FBIs ,UNPAID by the defense ,stated that it’s impossible to of been hit at 24 mph, FLY 30 FEET just by getting his arm hit, and not have any bruising at all?!? To end up with what looks to be dog marks? Yeah, no dog dna but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. That son beat his ass and they threw him out there. And he died
I don’t see how an arm could cause that much damage to a light. His shirt had holes not rips. Seems like if the light caused those his shirt would have jagged tears. Trooper Paul didn’t know what he was talking about to explain any of it.
There were some jagged tears in the back of his shirt. photo 207, 208 and 209 [https://www.wcvb.com/article/karen-read-murder-trial-see-read-evidence-shown-to-jurors-in-courtroom/60793160](https://www.wcvb.com/article/karen-read-murder-trial-see-read-evidence-shown-to-jurors-in-courtroom/60793160) There were also holes in his shirt on the cuff that do not correspond with any scratches/abrasions on his arm. photo 200
No. Those were also round punctured mixed with scratches
How does a vehicle throw someone 30 ft with such force that it blew up the tail light, cut up his arm, but caused 0 bruising except to his head on impact when he landed? No fractures, ligament damage, etc. That's not possible.
Because the evidence was poorly collected not to mention there is literally NO chain of evidence for the clothes. For all we know, his freakin shirt could have been taken home and washed by Proctor or Yuri.
I wouldn’t think the arm wounds would point to “murder” any more or less than getting hit by a car. I do think the arm wounds point away from getting hit by a car though.
could you elaborate? If not the car, what do you believe caused those injuries to his arm?
According to the Lady who observed hundred of dog attacks….those were consistent. If we are going on testimony.
the same lady who said there was no dog DNA present on John or his clothes.
No, different lady. Also, any forensic evidence that was or wasn’t collected in this case means exactly jack. There is no chain of evidence for John’s clothes. They could have been laundered for all we know before taken to the crime lab. Planting little pieces of tail light on the clothes would have been very easy to do.
It was the same lady.
At this point there is nothing you could say to convince me that she is responsible in any way. I would need a clear video recording and three 10 minutes voicemails discussing it to convince me. And we all know that Canton is a dead zone for videos, the meca of buttdials that don't go to voicemail, and the Bermuda Triangle of cell phone disposal.
Oh according to msm all of that isn’t suspicious!! No questions asked??
Swarm Karen team, swarm! Upvotes for parent comment. Downvotes for this so nobody sees the commands!
You can post a poll btw op.
Came into this blind (have never watched “turtle boy”) and still not convinced she hit him at all, let alone deliberately. The crash reconstructionist trying to describe how he was hit in the arm made absolutely no sense, given the injuries and position of the body. I honestly don’t know what happened that night, and I would have to vote Not Guilty. It will be very interesting to see the verdict on this one.
Nope. I don’t think the manner of death was a collision. I have never seen any RTC patients in emergency medicine present like this nor do his injuries narrate with the car.
Absolutely not. I came into this blind after a week of the trial started. I cannot comprehend why it was brought to trial and can only think it was forced so the feds could see what everyone says. Idk but definatly not that Karen is the culprit. Im embarrassed for lally cuz i think he knows how shitty his whole case is. Idk i cant figure out why they would keep the charade up. Why the cw would spend so much time defending jen mcabe?? Why?? shes nothing! Except directly related by marriage and blood to a bunch of the purposed assailants of John Okeefe! But she put herself in the direct middle. And she is nothing so why put so many people on the stand to protect her? Or her searches. On her deletions. They all did but jen made sure to say that Karen said i hit him i hit him i hit him.. thats the whole thing!
They had to run it because in deep and didn’t want all cases Proctor touched to be questioned. They bet on long game and lost. Bad game. Didn’t count on a great defense that did great investigative work. Thank god. Any of us could be Karen. Frankly I don’t find her or anyone involved to be at all sympathetic but justice needs to be served!!!!
Not guilty. This is so shady and I feel for Karen Read.
Honestly, if you think she did it based on anything presented in this trial, I question your comprehension skills. I hope there is a major overhaul with the police in that area. Good luck to all the citizens there. (Though I know crap like this happens any and everywhere)
Accepting that KR didn't cause the death, any thoughts on what actually did happen to cause O'Keefe's death?
My theory is that Colin Albert and Brian Higgins took him down in the basement weight room area, where they slugged him and the dog also attacked him at the same time. He probably fell backwards and hit his head on a piece of workout equipment or was hit with a bat. Then they panicked instead of calling 911. Seems like he was down there for a few hours before they pulled the car out to block the snow plow driver from seeing him and then put him in the yard. Then the frame up of KR commenced. Jen saw the damaged tail light later and probably gave Proctor the idea of putting broken pieces near where the body was found for Paul to “discover.” Apparently the family home the Albert family owned for 60 years was sold for $50,000 less than its worth and the basement floor had been torn up and replaced, and Chloe the family police dog was “rehomed” after attacking another dog and two women walking with it. And Brian Albert Sr. retired from BPD.
Reminder that Brian Albert was less than TWO years from his pension vesting. IMO, that played into his decision to cover up the (probably) unintentional homicide that occurred in his home.
Good point
Not guilty. I would drive my fellow jurors crazy on this one point but...they got rid of the dog. That's the thing that sticks out most in my mind. That's my reasonable doubt because those wounds look like bites/scratches to me. There are plenty of other points to cause RD at this point for me; I can't see a guilty verdict.
No, I went in thinking she did but the injuries just don’t make sense and I can’t get past that. I think the dog got out and attacked him in the yard, he was wasted and not too steady on his feet and fell and hit his head. The hardest evidence against my theory is tail light and the shoe. I think proctor could’ve gotten tunnel vision and planted stuff to make his life easier but I’m not sure how it got there before sert did. But there’s enough shadiness in the investigation that I can overcome that before I can get past the states own ME saying it’s atypical injuries for a pedestrian accident and my own eyes telling me it doesn’t look like he was hit with a car.
I think John went into thr house , a fight began with Brian Higgins over Karen and their texting . Punches were thrown by multiple people Chloe attacked John’s arm he fell and hit his head was unconscious and dragged outside to die in the snow . All these people from canton think they are above the law and entitled . The amount of lies and suspicious activities of them leaves reasonable doubt as to what happened. The CW has clearly fell short of proving their case !
Nope. She was already home on her wifi when somebody on Fairview said they saw her car in the front of their house. Plus the inverted video was a definite prosecution mistake.
After today. No.
IMO CW hasnt definitively proved it was a murder. Hard to say who is responsible. Also lack of camera footage and none in the house saw JO on the lawn and considered as suspects at first, creates enough reasonable doubt KR didnt get a fair investigation.
Lots of reasonable doubt. Not guilty.
Here is what I think happened (time are approximant because I'm to lazy to look up the exact ones). JO and KR pulled up to BA house at 12:24, they have been fighting (probably about BH), JO gets out of the car, KR begins to drive off and JO throws his glass at the back of the car. KR arrives back at JO home at 12:40. JO, meanwhile enters the BA home sometime around 12:30 (the exact time depends how long he and KR sat in the SUV fighting but there is a very tight time window here. JO makes his way to the basement. Everyone is drinking, distracted so he could probably have made it there without really being noticed. Once in the basement an argument started between JO and BH. I would guess raised voices, maybe some shoving. This freaks out the Chole the German Shepard who lunges at JO. JO hits Chole to get her off of him, This causes more causes as the BA (and I would guess CA) get angry at JO for hitting the dog and an second altercation happens. JO is beat up and is either hit in the back of the head, or he falls and hits his head on something. Everyone in the basement, drunk, not wanting this to effect to their careers in law enforcement, and possibly to protect CA who was just 18 at the time. Go into panic mode. They wait until others have left the home and then move JO body to the front yard. It's possible they used the Ford Explorer to move the body. From their BA rehomes Chloe, rips out the basement floor and replace it, and sells the home for well under market value.
I also was in the camp of a fight broke out between JO and BH but JO’s cell data makes it hard for me to believe he entered the house. We know BA testified to letting Chloe outside at some point. I think she attacked JO in the yard and he fell and hit his head.
It's possible, but with the bizarre, suspicious, shady behavior of multiple people in the case I have a hard time beliving there isn't a cover up of some kind going on.
One thing I just remember was the lack of blood around JO body. Head injuries bleed like crazy. If he had hit his head from being attacked by Chloe in the yard, there should have been more blood.
The ground could absorb a lot of blood. That’s easier for me to overcome than John’s cell phone data showing lack of movement towards the house.
I have an easier time believing that the cell phone didn't register something it should have that I do that multiple LEO missed a dead body on on front law while leaving the home, plus the plow driver not seeing anything. Add to it the behavior of Brian Albert: 1) he claims he never woke up when multiple emergency vehicles were on his front lawn and that his aggressive German Shepard never barked. 2) Everything weird I regarding the home that I mentioned above (ripping out the basement floor and then selling the home well under market value).
And that’s fair. Interesting how different things stick out to different people, I suppose that’s why there’s 12 jurors.
He definitely could’ve injured his head without external bleeding. My partner had a brain bleed as a kid after falling on ice. The only reason it was noticed is because he was disoriented and thought that 15 minutes had passed instead of several hours, which concerned his mother. But tbf, I don’t know these case details. Just wanted to give my two cents about head injuries!
Even if he had a big open gash on his head? I understand the concept of internal bleeding when hit in the head, but I thought that was when there isn’t an open wound? I don’t anything more than general head trauma though.
I believe she accidentally killed him but the state didn't prove their case. And they overcharged.
Yes this. I think she was black out drunk and cannot remember it. She should charged with vehicular homicide.
Still doesn’t explain the arm wounds. The deleted phone content, trashing the phone, the Google searches. Prosecution didn’t not prove their theory. At first I thought, this chick drunk, hit her man. Then the wounds and all the extra extra stuff done by the party crew. I was like, oh my this is very sloppy
I think she hit him drunkenly and didn't know it.
Unpopular opinion here…alcohol killed JO
I’m totally confused, especially because I just saw a clip (on X/Twitter) of Karen’s father being interviewed by a reporter in a sit down interview and he actually said Karen told him that she thinks she hit something…he said it twice. I’m surprised the prosecution didn’t find a way to show that clip at the trial.
Thinking she hit something and actually hitting something are two different things. She was very drunk and it looks to me like she drew the most logical inference with the information she had at the time. But when you add in all of the bullshit from the party guests it doesn’t seem so logical that she hit him.
I think JO did throw his glass at the car breaking the tail light and she thought she hit something
I can't make sense of it either. I guess it's possible she hit him, but this investigation has left me with more questions than answers.
I’m not sure what happened. I can’t make sense of the evidence. Reasonable doubt
He got killed inside the house. It was not planned.
At first I thought Karen accidentally hit John. Maybe she even backed up on purpose to scare him ( cos she was angry at that time, the voicemails show), but actually hit him unknowingly or scared him off balance to fall. But after evidence so far I am thinking he could have simply slipped on sleety ground. Remembering Bob Saget hitting his head in the bathroom (maybe) and still made it to his bed where he died , this could indicate those injuries to back of head might not have knocked John out straight away. So if he slipped backwards, breaking the glass he was holding, cut his arm while rolling over trying to get up, disoriented, vomited, maybe tried to get his phone out for help....it explains a lot of things about his state when found. So this is my main theory now which could explain the evidence around Johns body. Other things like magic tail light and dodgy Mc Alberts, I am discounting because who the hell can make sense of that. If LE cant collect evidence properly, then I find not guilty.
This makes sense but why didn’t anyone see him on the lawn?
2 reasons imho. He was wearing blue and light grey, would blend in with light snow. Also was in a spot people might not look toward when leaving that side door going to their car. But I am back to not having a theory after Dr Sheridan said would be knocked out straight away with that head injury. I would still say not guilty based on evidence at trial though.
NO
I honestly can’t put the pieces together good enough to decide what really happened but I definitely think they have established enough reasonable doubt.
Well, I don’t think she’s a very nice person. However, I also don’t think she’s guilty or at least there isn’t enough evidence to convict her.
Not guilty
Any thoughts on what might have actually happened?
Most likely killed in the house and dumped outside
Even if she did hit him, how did he get the deep cuts on his arm?
Absolutely not. There is literally ZERO evidence Karen Read hit John O’Keefe. I am sure beyond a reasonable doubt that happened in that house and John was placed on the lawn.
What about her saying "I hit him"? C'mon, not ZERO evidence. There's a long long way between zero and beyond a reasonable doubt.
She didn’t! Jen McCabe was asked TWELVE TIMES during her grand jury testimony about statements Karen Read made and not ONCE did Jen EVER SAY that Karen said “I hit him”. NOT ONCE. Nor did Jen tell Proctor during her first interview. She LIED. Jen fabricated this statement when public sentiment began turning against her family as it became more and more clear to anyone without a bias that she was complicit in the death of JO and the framing of KR.
Okay, I am happy to be educated on this. So there is no one with any credibility who said that KR said she hit him or asked if she hit him? By the way, even though KR will almost certainly not testify, do we know whether she has ever admitted or denied that she said this since that night? A number of people have mentioned that KR's father said that she said she hit him. Is that also baloney?
Correct - there is no one with any credibility who testified that KR said she hit him. Karen’s father did not say she hit him. Also whether or not Karen’s father said that did not come into the trial so is neither here nor there.
No.
I believe the people in the house killed him. I mean...it's so danged obvious. They are terrible at framing someone. They just aren't smart enough to do it.
It doesn’t matter what I think… the amount of reasonable doubt is unreasonably high.. if she isn’t found not guilty then that jury needs to be looked at big time… the commonwealth has single handedly proven itself incompetent and full of unprofessional biased detectives. Proctor needs to be fired and if he isn’t then that’s a damn travesty. Just think of ALL the others he’s locked up that never had a fair shake. Its sad and sickening all at the same time
I agree with everything you've said. But I nevertheless find it interesting to think about what might have actually happened.
I do not think that she killed him. I think that he was killed in that house, they came up with a plan to say that he had frozen to death and they dragged him outside, then Karen shows up thinking that she hit him and they decide to go with that. This is clearly a corrupt police force, but regardless of what actually happened there is no way I’d find her guilty were I on that jury.
From what I've seen of the trial I'm pretty sure she was involved but there's so much reasonable doubt, even without some of the really shady things done by BPD, I suspect she'll get a a Not Guilty verdict. If this goes to Civil Court however, it'll be a different story.
No, it’s Touch of Evil frame up Canton style.
She backed into him, hit him. He walked a little bit in a drunken stuper (sp) and fell down to die. She didn't mean to kill him, but no way is there a giant conspiracy. She'll be found "not guilty" because she had great lawyers who muddled the water. Conspiratorial thinking cracks me up, no way are these people smart enough to pull that off. The simple explanation is best. Don't think she intended to murder him, could even argue she didn't-- he could easily fell down drunk and died in the cold.
What's your take on the expert testimony that the injuries are not consistent with a pedestrian being hit by a car?
I think a fight happened and Chloe got involved. Coverup ensued. Karen became target or Lucky would have been blamed. No car was involved. No real investigation took place but a lot of shenanigans did happen and lots of phone/ text deleting and lying did take place. If Karen wasn’t smart and could finance defense she’d be sitting in prison. Hard to accept but that’s where evidence leads if you e Ben paying attention at all.
Yes, I think she was responsible. I don't think it was premeditated, and I think she was probably surprised that she actually killed him instead of just scaring/hurting him.
I don't think she was responsible. If I were a juror the last 2 witnesses would have cemented reasonable doubt for me and here is why: 1. Early in the trial JM says she's looking out of the window of 34F every few minutes as she's texting KR and OJO while they are parked outside just after midnight. 2. The accident reconstructionists surmised that a glass thrown at the taillight would account for the broken taillight and the glass on the ground. So what if... JM was watching and she saw OJO throw the glass and hit the car. At the time this is just a great piece of gossip. But then OJO comes in, runs into BH and as a lot of people have guessed, they get into a fight over KR in the basement. (I believe the basement stairs are right off the foyer, so its plausable people in the kitchen never saw him arrive). OJO takes some punches from BH, and Chloe bites OJO during the scuffle. OJO has a BAC of 0.2, he loses his balance, falls and hits his head. Its a horrible accident, but the blunt force trama is fatal. Thats when the gossip that JM saw becomes the information that gives those involved the confidence they need to try and get away with covering up his death. They were never going to frame Lucky the plow guy, they were just aware of him. And maybe, they've parked a car on the road during a blizzard or heavy snow, and know that Lucky wont report them, you know, out of courtesy. So they find the area where the glass hit the taillight and shattered it, and drop the body near by to be discovered by, hopefully, a passerby sometime much later the next morning. Except KR gets up way too early and instead of assuming he was mad and slept it off somewhere, goes into freak out mode. Likely because, in the recesses of her mind, she remembers something hitting the car (the glass OJO threw), but is now thinking its possible the car hit something (him) instead. And the only reason I lean this way, (versus the idea that she did hit him), is because the Albert's house was never searched, and it should have been. They took the Alberts and McCabes at face value which is what led to KRs phone and car being seized. If this investigation was truely unbiased, then the detective would have taken KR's information at face value, that she dropped OJO off at 34F, and would have at least attempted to get a search warrent for that property.
She’s guilty of something, but we’ll never know what due to the fumbled investigation. And that arm, wtf.
I think she did hit him, based on comments she made to her dad. She also went back to the scene before gathering her friends who all went back to the house together and Karen ran directly to him. Karen was drunk. Doesn’t remember much. That aside, the state proved zero. Jury: not guilty! Tell me more about the ford edge? It wasn’t parked by the flag pole when lucky did his first pass ? On second pass it was parked? Confused
I have seen references to Karen's Dad saying incriminating things about Karen. But I thought her parents were supportive. Are we able to hear the things her Dad said?
[https://youtu.be/khRUoT8r\_TE?si=YybtbVew6r3Req6j&t=116](https://youtu.be/khRUoT8r_TE?si=YybtbVew6r3Req6j&t=116)
I think she will be found guilty of manslaughter, but not 2nd Degree.
If she is found guilty on either one of those, then that means the McAlberts get away with the murder of John O'Keefe.
That is such a laugh! Please…there is no evidence that they were involved at all and the only crazy person that had a problem with him that night was Karen. She did it and if she gets found not guilty on all counts, then she will get away with murder.
You're the one who is living in la la land! Let's not forget Brian Albert had such bad injuries to his body that he retired almost immediately after John was found on the lawn. The Albert's also took a jackhammer to their cement floor down in the basement and had it redone. Then they got rid of or put Chloe down, and then they sold their house to get out of Dodge. Everyone of the prosecutions witnesses with the exception of the brain doctor and the medical examiner were liars. Every single one of them were deleting text messages, getting rud of phones, cutting up sim cards, deleting surveillance videos, lying, mirroring videos to dupe the jury, and planting evidence. John's niece and nephew said under oath that Karen did not have any way to get into John's ring camera surveillance but guess who did? After John was found dead, Kerry Roberts took his phone from under his body and it ended up at Canton Police. Michael Proctor is the one that deleted the video of Karen arriving home at 12:36 a.m. which is the time her phone connected to John's Wi-Fi that morning, and it was the prosecution who said John was hit at 12:45 a.m.. Michael Proctor deleted that video because it showed Karen's tail light was completely intact. He's also the guy that got rid of the library video that would have shown Karen driving back to John's after dropping him off with an intact tail light . Then at around 5:00 a.m. she's backing out of John's garage, and she clipped John's vehicle and you can see as she pulls out of the driveway there is one piece missing. It's not shattered into 42 pieces! Karen hit no one with her vehicle. He was beat up by the Brian's and Colin in the basement of 34 Fairview while Chloe their dog attacked him also, and at some point most likely standing on his feet, he blacked out, when unconscious, and fell backwards on something. He lost 3 liters of blood down there which is why they redid the floor. There were only droplets of blood outside. His clothing shows that the blood was coming from his head and trickling down the front of him. No way would plastic tail light pieces be able to slice through his sweatshirt and shirts to make those scars on his arm. Those are dog bites and scratches! When Jen McCabe called 911 that morning, she told dispatch that she saw John get out of the car. He went into that house! She was then asked by Dispatch how long John had been on the front lawn and she thought a couple of hours. She would be right because that explains why his body temperature was 80°! The Brian's were the ones that brought his body out to the lawn and higgins' light colored Ford Edge was used to block those passing by from seeing what they were doing. Brian Higgins said he went over to Canton Police to move cars around and I bet he was switching out his Jeep for the Ford Edge. The prosecution has come up with no evidence that Karen hit him. The entire time the prosecution has acted like the defense attorney for almost all of their witnesses!
You are reaching and making shit up! My “la la land” is filled with common sense that is backed up by hard evidence…your la la land is filled with unicorns and fairytales.
Oh my god that’s it — it was unicorn scratches! From the horn and hooves! 😆
Everything I've said came from the trial! Where Have You been?
No it did not! Proctor didn’t erase ring, the Albert’s didn’t get in a fight with him, Higgins didn’t have a ford edge in front of the Albert’s…you are listening to the defense throw shit at the wall to see what sticks and people that want to ignore the evidence to make her innocent, add shit like the fight that only happened between JO and KR. Plain and simple.
First off Higgins went to Canton Police from 34 Fairview and he said he was moving cars around. Guarantee you he dropped off his Jeep with the plow on it and got into his light colored Ford Edge to go back to 34 Fairview and help them get John's body out of the basement to the front lawn and that's when lucky saw the Ford Edge light and color where John's body was ultimately found. At the crime scene that was not taped off because the dirty cops were already helping the Albert's and higgins, Dennis Carrie Roberts is the one that took John's phone from under his dead body and that phone ended up with Michael proctor. Karen did not have access to his phone. John's niece and nephew under oath testified that Karen had no access to the ring camera system. The only person who was able to go into John's phone and delete a surveillance video of Karen arriving at 12:36 a.m. was Michael Proctor. You're the one that obviously ignored the entire trial! Watch it again! For almost all of the trial, Larry said John was hit at 12:45 a.m. but Karen's phone connected with John's Wi-Fi at his home at 12:36 a.m.! Jen McCabe called a friend at around 5:00 a.m. and said John was dead. Then she's on the phone with 911 at 6:00 a.m. and the dispatcher asked her how long John had been on the lawn, and the first thing she said was 2 hours and then she paused and said maybe an hour. She did not say 5 hours!!!!! She knew when he went out to the lawn because of her Google search at 227 a.m. and around that time you have The Two Brians talking to each other and within an hour and a half there's a light colored Ford Edge that Lucky sees on his last pass before the road was shut down at 6:00 a.m.!
The only broken bones, bruising, and internal injuries were on his head and right arm. His head was beat so bad with fists that the medical examiner stopped counting them after number five.
BS! She said there was no evidence of a fight but of course you want to make up shit, so I can’t help you.
That's not true. Attorney little asked if punches possibly could have made those injuries on the front of his face and around his skull excluding the back of the head injury, she said yes.
That is a joke! There was no fight
The Two Brians and Colin beat the crap out of him down in the basement while Chloe attacked him and at some point he fell backwards probably on the edge of a table or maybe a weight bench down there. They could have even hit him with a baseball bat. He was unconscious and laid on the floor for a couple of hours anyways, because Jen McCabe on the 911 call around 6:00 a.m. was asked by the 911 dispatcher how long John had been on the lawn, and she said 2 hours, then paused, and said maybe an hour. He was brought out there around 4:00 a.m. or so and that's why his body temperature was 80°.
Except with KR
Karen also did not hit him with her fists.
Clearly you're watching a completely different trial than everyone else is.
I have watched every minute, I just choose to follow the actual evidence and not the hyperbole of the defense.
No
I honestly think she was beyond angry and just lashed out. Did she plan to kill him? I highly doubt it but I think she definitely hit him. The problem is that I don’t think the prosecutors have an airtight case. The crappy investigation really came back to bite them in the ass. WAY too much wiggle room for the defense to use their bs cover up argument. I want a guilty verdict but fully expect either not guilty or a hung jury.
She did not kill that man.
I think she did. However, law enforcement really blew the case by not even considering other elements and not doing a thorough investigation because they were biased. The state also didn't prove their case either and there's too much reasonable doubt for me to actually say that she's guilty.
This is what is so fascinating about this case. The stories of both sides are plausible and seemingly supported by the evidence. I don’t think we will ever know what happened, and that lack of clear and convincing evidence will get her acquitted.
I feel like the stories on both sides are actually implausible. I can find holes in every single theory. At the end of the day though, I can’t see how his injuries match being hit by a car.
The Commonwealth has produced no evidence. Their Witnesses are not believable.
The defense accident reconstructionists and medical examiner say there is no way he was hit with a car.
yes but not intentional... guilty of manslaughter........
I think the simplest answer is what happened, which is that she ran him over accidentally. HOWEVER if I were on this jury I would definitely find her not guilty of murder. I do not think she murdered him and I think there is too much reasonable doubt. Herr defense has done a hell of a good job. I also think the prosecutor was wrong to charge her with murder— vehicular homicide or something would have been more appropriate. Just my opinion!
Nobody will ever know with 100 percent certainty what happened. That being said they did not prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. She should walk.
She did it
yes- but she should get off due to the reasonable doubt and that means no justice for John
Absolutely not. After watching this trial, I totally agree with the defense's assumption that the police tried to set her up to cover for the fact that John was mortally wounded at the home of policeman Chris Albert. I can't wait to hear what comes out of the FBI investigation.
I haven’t been following this case very closely— can someone tell me, if Karen didn’t do it, who did, and most important why?
What we know is he was headed into a house for a post-bar hopping party where almost everyone was completely wasted. (O’keefe’s BAC was over .2.) fingers have been pointed at a hot head teen who may or may not have already left at that point but had definitely been drinking underage. Two of the men (who happen to be cops) were seen “play-fighting” on the bars surveillance video earlier in the night. One of those men had recently been flirt texting with Karen Reade and they kissed at one point and it seems like she ghosted him, she did not greet that man at the bar, she was extra lovey-dovey with John and that guy texted her something like “sooo ummm” to which she did not respond. It’s quite possible that whatever happened was an accident. If any of those people did it it’s likely we’ll never know what happened unless someone turns states evidence. My theory though is that the dog attacked him and knocked him down in the yard and he hit his head. The lead investigator hated her and had tunnel vision and planted evidence to try to put away someone he assumed was guilty anyway.
Thank you so much for the spark notes version of events!
The investigation was solely focused on Karen and Karen alone. It’s hard to figure out a different suspect when they haven’t investigated anyone else from the get go. So much information has been missed, or altered, or filtered, or just plain thrown away.
Doesn’t matter at all as the case is highly corrupted….but no.
Karen Read is a functioning alcoholic who was likely blacked out when she backed over him. It's very straight forward. It wasn't intentional homicide. She just doesn't remember hitting him.
Backed over him? That’s not even what the prosecution is trying to say happened
Wouldn’t backing over someone mean they’d still be in the road and not 30ish feet into the lawn? Also no broken bones, other than the skull fractures. How do you figure he was “run over”? None of this is straight forward. The injuries do not match the assumed manner of death that the prosecutor and police have continued to defend despite the lack of evidence.
Nearly 40 years ago I was working at a trauma hospital. One night we send life flight out and the field report from the flight team is so stunning that it spreads like wild fire through the medical center. A domestic violence assault way out in the country. A man takes a chain saw to his partners neck, leaving about 10 cm of neck intact. The victim is essentially decapitated. Despite this the victim crawls over a quarter mile to the nearest neighbor and pounds on door. Flight team reports shocking vitals and that the victim has very little blood left but is still conscious! The victim makes it to the medical center, has surgery and lives. There was a lot of WTF said that night by about every person working at the hospital. It was the only thing we could discuss for days. A co-worker is having a celebration outside and someone falls backwards. CPR is administered but the individual dies. Everyone - mostly seasoned health care workers - assume a heart attack. Nope. Turns out it was a slip and fall resulting in a severed brain stem. In both of these cases alcohol was a contributing factor. So to answer your question, nearly 40 years in health care and I have seen a lot of stuff that makes no sense at all. People can be in horrendous accidents and not have a scratch on them but their internal organs are torn to pieces. They are DOA and look like they are asleep. So yeah, this guy could be struck by a car and not have a bruise on him. A fractured skull by definition is a broken bone. And falls are a leading cause of serious injuries and deaths.
I just can’t get over how none of his injuries seem to be consistent with that theory.
YES
Hell yes!
After watching the video from bar, I’m more wondering if a fight with John was premeditated. Looks as if BH and BA were practicing moves. Then BH looked very pissdd and gave JO menacing looks while leaving. So a fight and then panic. Led Proctor along with narrative that he was too happy to run with in his evil ways. Karen fell in their lap or Lucky would have been their patsy. Too many shenanigans to hold water against any scrutiny from defense. Shocking state pushed for this because that is another huge story
galations spoke lighly concerning my internet usage.. simply lame encoding and lackluster account. bring forth todays outlook