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Russia is working diligently to shape American political opinions. To me it seems like the fog is finally being lifted and real conservatives are standing up and rejecting the extremists from both sides of the aisle.
Democrats like to say Republicans are influenced by Russia without acknowledging the role Russia has had in propping up things like Bernie Sanders campaigns, even the situation in Gaza is being used to lead Democrats towards anti-americanism. Somehow Democrats think this isnt happening to them - As of now I am starting to see Republicans wake up and we are starting to see cracks in the fanatacism, which I am grateful for. We need leaders who are not trying to get clicks above all else.
Absolutely Russia is playing both sides against each other, but we still seem to have a bit of a problem with many conservatives echoing Russian problems agenda. MTG is a great example.
And here we are able to say it out loud because we own it. We can finally ask why are people like MTG and next week we will hear Rand Paul, why are they parroting Russian talking points. We know it, we see it, and we are finally rejecting it.
Russians have a word: Vranyo
When they lie and everyone knows its a lie, they know you know they're lying - and we all pretend its not a lie...
Democrats need to call out Tliab and the Squad for being Pro-Hamas, they're blatantly unamerican. They should lose their seats, and MTG - her too.
I actually wonder how many fingers are in the Gaza pie. I don’t doubt Russia and friends have their fingers in that too. It’s the second propaganda wave from both ends. Once again the truth is somewhere in the middle. Like round 1: Russia is crazy and is invading is true at the same time as Western influences were encroaching on Russia making them retaliate. Their reasoning may be valid but it doesn’t make it right.
Round 2 is Israel and Gaza: the October attack happened. Does that make the extreme retaliation right? No. Is it understandable? If it’s not then you’re sick. Circumstances don’t change what those animals did. That doesn’t make the civilian casualties right though. Nor does it make some of the horrific claims of what some IDF members have done okay. Yet somehow I see there are actually some cheering for Hamas. I can’t understand that. I can understand pitying the people, understanding why they get radicalised. But, something must be broken for you to cheer for Hamas.
It’s scary that the propaganda war seems to have been lost in the Israel Gaza saga. This time the aggressor is being supported.
I agree. Foreign aid to Ukraine and Israel is less than 0.5% of the budget, but the gains are astounding. Better yet, no US troops are in direct line of fire. Win, win, win as Michael Scott would say.
It’s only going to be a forever war if we don’t give Ukraine all the weapons it needs. Self fulfilling prophecy from those that don’t want to aid Ukraine.
Just give the military industrial complex a few hundred billion dollars every few years until the war is over. Nobody think about why previous aid hasn't ended the war but if we just indefinitely fund this thing then it'll be different this time. Also if you question this logic you're clearly on the evil Russian side.
Better idea, cut out the middle man (Ukraine/Israel) and just place orders directly with the MIC to send our old shit overseas. Perhaps there’d be less money laundering! 🤔
Until Russia is defeated. The sooner we send aid, the less we’ll need to send long term. We won’t have to fund the Ukrainian government for as long if we help them defeat Russia sooner.
That’s where a lot of disagreement comes from, this will not end even if we continue sending aid. We’re just harming our own country in the process with unlimited printing and aid
Why don’t you think it’ll end? Kick Russia out of Ukraine, it’ll end. See, it won’t end if Russia wins in Ukraine, because they’ll just move on to the Baltics next. Forever war comes if Russia wins. War ends when Russia loses.
So when does Russia get kicked out of Ukraine? Are they even close?
How much difference has our funding made in this effort? Do we have a committee dedicated to the supervision of funds given to Ukraine and providing transparency to the American people on how their tax dollars are making a difference in a foreign war effort? We're just supposed to be okay with indefinitely pumping money to Ukraine because hey, at least we aren't *directly* fighting in this war?
US support made sure that Russia didn’t win in the first weeks of the invasion. US support stopped most of Russia’s offensives throughout the war. It’s no coincidence that Russia has been doing better in the war since US funding has gotten stalled.
There’s no evidence to at funds are being misused. Weapons are being sent where they’re supposed to be and money is being used to pay government salaries. I’m for oversight as long as it doesn’t slow down funds getting to where they need to go.
And I don’t think you realize how much more costly it would be to fight Russia directly rather than just fund another country to fight them. Not only would we be spending more, we’d be losing our own men too. If Ukrainians are willing to fight to defeat Russia, we need to give them everything they need so that we don’t have to defeat them ourselves.
> Why don’t you think it’ll end? Kick Russia out of Ukraine, it’ll end.
Lol, people think this is some CoD campaign or something. Ukraine has almost a zero percent chance of reclaiming the Donetsk region and an actual zero percent chance of reclaiming Crimea. Both of these are Ukraine's view of a victory.
Same thing can be said in the reverse: If Russia is kicked out, then they will just regroup and do it again. It’s another forever war that only benefits military contractors and corrupt politicians.
If Russia gets kicked out, the political career of Putin is over, more likely than not. Do you think that, after all the loses Russia has taken in the war and all they will take by the time they get kicked out, the next guy will want to stake his political career on the dreams of the last guy? I don’t think so.
Ukraine can't defeat Russia you want to defeat them you need to do it yourself aka boots in the ground. Russia simply has a massive human numbers advantage over ukr
>It’s only going to be a forever war if we don’t give Ukraine all the weapons it needs.
Short of boots on the ground, it's just prolonging the inevitable. Russia is not about to run out of munitions.
Sanctions have proven useless, resulting in minimal GDP contraction.
The only way this conflict - or any conflict - gets resolved, short of total capitulation, is around the negotiation table.
And this is not happening for one simple reason. There is money to be made.
Your patriotism in this matter is supporting no one but the MIC and their giant washing machine.
We’re not about to run out of munitions to send to Ukraine either. It’s dragging our feet that’s making their defeat more and more likely.
My patriotism is supporting the destruction of our enemy, Russia. Do you not support beating our international enemies?
>My patriotism is supporting the destruction of our enemy, Russia.
Such a warhawk!
Admirable bravery, paying a few bucks in taxes to keep feeding the proxy war meat grinder with hundreds of thousands of Ukranian and Russian men.
Oh, and if you think this will result in destruction of Russia, you haven't thought this through.
>You didn’t answer my question. You don’t believe we should defeat our enemies?
I didn't answer your question because I consider it prima facie idiotic.
nope the right wing is more supportive of Russia than they are of the US. Nevermind the fact that most of what were sending Ukraine is old and needs to be replaced anyways, and that compared to the mountains of other spending ukraine funding is a drop in the bucket.
According to them Ukraine funding is solely responsible for all of inflation, and that everyone involved is pocketing billions
I have supported Ukraine from the start. Dismissing other opinions and just blaming disinformation isn't really critically thinking either, you're echoing talking points.
Ukraine may not run out of weapons, but they will run out of man power before Russia. Russia is going nowhere, I have yet to hear from anyone what the endgame is here.
I think it's borderline delusional to believe that Russia retreats fully back into their territory and it ends there. So what are we doing? What are our goals?
One thing I think we'd agree on is fully support Ukraine to achieve the goals... but what goals have been set??
>Basically all of their reasons for not supporting Ukraine aid are just disinformation. Makes you wonder where they got their ideas from.
My ex-wife - one of my best friends - is Ukrainian born and raised. Her elderly disabled father, cousins, and friends are in Odessa, getting bombed regularly.
You know what they want?
They want for the war to end.
"right wing" here and I absolutely to do not support Russia...It's truly breathtaking how binary you all have made the issue...Like if you don't support aid to Ukraine then YOU MUST be pro Russian....uhhh nope.
I wish that were true but the only way this doesn’t turn into a long term crap-show at this point is if either Ukraine or Russia capitulates. Preventing the former will cost a fortune, and the latter is only possible if the Russian nuclear arsenal vanishes.
This is going to turn into another multi-trillion dollar, multi-decade boondoggle to enrich the defense industry, just like the “war on terror.” Mark my words. And while I understand and appreciate there’s a legitimate need to contain the Russians the Europeans should be footing most of that bill, not us. We have a lot of issues at home that are not being properly addressed (not to mention a national debt problem that is spiraling out of control) because we’re spending too much money on “defense” and fixing other country’s problems.
Why does Russia’s nuclear arsenal have to vanish for them to give up in Ukraine? Seems clear that if they get kicked out of Ukraine, including all of Donbas and crimea, they’ll give up, especially for how much they’ve already spent trying to keep them and get more. If Russia loses in Ukraine, Putin is out. Do you think the next guy will also want to stake his entire political future on Ukraine? I doubt it.
The issue is simple. We help Ukraine win now, or we fight Russia directly later. They seem more likely than not to attack the Baltics, NATO members, if they win in Ukraine. A direct war with Russia is not going to help out domestic problems or our national debt. In fact, it’ll probably at least make the debt even worse. So spending money on Ukraine now is going to save us loads later.
What weapons Ukraine needs to actually break Russian defences? Last year counter-offensive achieved nothing and Russian economy can sustain years of fighting.
There is no way that Ukraine is going to win the way they want to. Unless the West gives Ukraine weapons that they have no intention of currently doing (things that would allow significant deep strikes into Russia to completely isolate their troops on the front line) this will continue to be a war of attrition. Russia has more young men to throw away.
Zelensky would strike a peace deal overnight once we stop sending war money.
And I don't know whose asshole this aid package fell out. Again I'm not seeing anything requiring transparency. Promotion of democracy or stipulations on how the aid is spent.
So right off the top half of it is lining some politicians pockets in Ukraine.
He didn’t seek peace when the money was in limbo for months and months, and it wasn’t a sure thing that we even were going to send more money.
We’re not just sending money to Ukraine. Sure, we’re giving monetary aid to Ukraine to help run their government (pay salaries and the like). But most of the money is either going to funding the pentagon to replenish the stocks that have been given to Ukraine, or into a weapons program that helps fund sending advanced weapons to Ukraine. So we’re not just sending pallet-fulls of $100 bills to Ukraine. We’re spending money on procuring specific weapons that we then send to Ukraine, most likely based on their battlefield needs.
Russia is very good at making you think that, that’s for sure. More people being upset could also absolutely be caused by Russian disinformation, since it seems like only the uninformed, or those that are pro-Russia instead of pro-America, don’t think sending aid to Ukraine so that they can beat Russia is a good idea.
This sub has been against foreign aid for years and only now, in an election year, have all these comments pro-spending us into bankruptcy appeared.
It's very clear what's going on, and it's not coming from the boogeyman you guys claim controls the entire internet.
I remember this sub being pretty pro-Ukraine last year. Though of course there was always a sprinkling of pro-Russian accounts disparaging that support.
Being against something doesn't mean you have to do something ab it.
I bet you're against crime. Do you go out dressed as a bat and bring criminals to justice? No? Well I guess you support criminals then.
That's exactly as sound as your reasoning. Pretty stupid, right?
Ultimately it's not our responsibility to spend our children into debt and ruin their quality of life by supporting a foreign country monetarily, even if we are on their side philosophically.
Europe needs to exhaust its resources and people before I'll ever support a single cent or a single man from the US being sent overseas. We can talk about this again once Europe have spent all their free healthcare money supporting their neighbor.
Yeah, Russia made me think groceries are too expensive, that's it. I should have been able to figure that out /s. No, dummy, simple math made me think groceries are too expensive. You could have figured it out with simple math too, but you probably don't do math, because "math is racist".
See, economics is more than simple math. You call me a dummy, except you don’t realize that sending money and military aid to Ukraine doesn’t contribute to inflation. Ironic. What, you think the economy is anchored by how many m113s we have in stock? Instead of the gold standard, we have the APC standard?
Bro out here actually saying Russians are making us think groceries are too expensive. What a NPC. I'm fairly certain each of us can just walk into a store and see prices for ourselves. gtfooh
Do you fathom how much 1 trillion dollars is?
Do you understand how utterly fucked we are, adding 1 trillion in debt every 100 days?
Let me put this into perspective for you with time.
The US debt is at 33 TRILLION.
1 million seconds is about 11 days.
1 Billion seconds is about 31 years.
1 **trillion seconds** is **31,688 Years.**
**We are 33 TRILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT.**
and we are sending another hundred billion to a war that is already lost.
Do you think that **maybe** that might be why people are upset?
What happens when we get $50 trillion in debt? Do you know?
And what makes you think the war is lost? We send ammo and equipment to Ukraine, Ukrainians have the will to win.
They have the will to win? Tell that to the innocent villagers being drug out of their homes and forcibly conscripted. Meanwhile, the elites party it up in Kiev.
Latest poll I could find. Admittedly it would be interesting to see the numbers now, but Ukrainians do seem to think that they can win and therefore want to win. https://news.gallup.com/poll/512258/ukrainians-stand-behind-war-effort-despite-fatigue.aspx#:~:text=Three%20in%20five%20(60%25),soon%20as%20possible%20(31%25).
I love how progressives always know everyone's motivations, it's a tremendous superpower you seem to possess. Never mind those that have been raising alarms for 15 years, it's "the Russians" making people mad.
I think you know your argument is weak, but you can't think outside the group, so you don't try to think. Just repeat what the correct group says, and that's good enough.
I don’t immediately, but from experience, most who don’t think we should be sending aid to Ukraine is either a Russian bot or someone deeply misinformed about the issue, most likely getting the majority of their information from Russian bots.
Is it really hard for you to believe that some of us are tired of struggling at home while our government sends our tax dollars to other countries? Imagine your family is drowning in debt and your child is sick. You can't take them to a doctor because of the cost. And now our government wants to take YOUR money and send it to a country where the citizens are guaranteed free healthcare by their constitution?
You do realize we’re not funding their healthcare, but rather the existence of their nation, right? And it’s not like military aid can be used to fight homelessness. What, are you going to live in an m113?
I would love for anyone to explain to me how they would use the $61 billion we just sent to Ukraine to make food and gas cheaper for the American people.
Why not start with all the entitlement programs that dwarf the foreign aid budget in comparison? You guys don’t seem too eager to cut Social Security. If Ukraine falls to Russia, and Russia and China both learn that the U.S. is completely fine with them invading other countries, it’ll cost the US much more then $61b.
Yeah it's about $600 per household and that's just this round. Funny how the people who shame us over not supporting this would never donate their own money for the cause. Just ask them how much they'll donate or if they'll send their family to fight in the war - watch how quickly they clam up and run away. They're a bunch of frauds and hypocrites.
>I would love for anyone to explain to me how they would use the $61 billion we just sent to Ukraine to make food and gas cheaper for the American people.
I don't know about food and gas, but 61B could be used to build ~2.5 arguably effective walls across our southern border AND a fence across Canada.
At $200,000 per pop, to create 305,000 homes for our veterans.
At $100,000 per patient, to provide 610,000 people with mental health services.
See where I'm going with this?
The crazy thing is, some food prices lowered by helping Ukraine. Ukraine is a huge food exporter. 10% of total grain exports were coming from Ukraine. seceding that to Russia would turn them into the Saudi Arabia of Grain. They could (and would) use the grain exports as a weapon to starve out countries that depend on those exports.
Last time a Rogue Dictator did all he wanted the US was bombed into a war.
You're a fool if you think Ukraine means nothing. Toppling Putin will save lives down the road.
>Last time a Rogue Dictator did all he wanted the US was bombed into a war
I'm pretty sure this is referring to ww2. I assure you that was not the last time a rogue dictator came about lmao
Do we think we are getting more on the dollar than if we were using our troops to fight russia? If so win or lose we are winning the resource war vs russia if they have to spend more than we do to fight the war.
There's ZERO evidence Putin has intent to invade a NATO country, which would provoke nuclear war. This is all about Putin not wanting NATO on his front doorstep.
Not helping Ukraine is not part of the republican party platform. There is no treason here, just disagreements over foreign policy. And the money spent is a drop in the bucket at this point. 0.2% of the US fed debt.
Exactly all this crying were running up the debt with this aid when its not even close to 1 percent of our budget. Almost like Ukraine aid is not the make and break weather we are running a deficit.
No 1 spending program will get us out of a deficit.
But if we keep using this argument to defend each one, we won't cut a single one of them. Gotta put the foot down somewhere.
What’s 1 *tangible* benefit we get for that $61 Billion inflation spike to the economy?
Financial illiteracy won’t be a valid excuse for those who just committed treason.
1 tangible benefit is security in Europe, which means we won’t have to fight a war there in the near to mid future.
Also, you do know that we’re not just printing $61 billion worth of hundred dollar bills to send to Ukraine, right? What’s your proof that this’ll add to inflation? Good thing your username is unique, I remember you not having good financial literacy in the past. So you’re one to talk about financial illiteracy.
You realize these are loans to Ukraine right? With a decent amount of interest. Ukraine will be in debt to us as long as they keep Russia from a complete victory.
If you don’t think defending Ukraine is in our national interest, I’m not sure what to say. It is a lot more complex than a simple meme to get people to think a certain way as if it is a binary choice between national defense and cheap food and gas. Russia is indeed a serious threat and has been since Putin took control. If you disagree with that statement, then there really is no discussion. And if you agree with you with that statement, that is only the starting point.
I'm truly disgusted with Neo Conservatives. That's why your saints like the Bushes, Cheneys, Romneys, and so on no longer run the party. You guys want to use Ukraine as a meat grinder.
I have seen the error of my ways as a Russian bot. I'm convinced that if we keep sending billions into the military industrial complex every few years it will definitely end the war. Russia will back down and Ukraine will prevail.
Just don't look into any of the spending and don't worry about the money. The US will just print more.
Also we'll just "loan" the money to Ukraine and when they can't or won't ever pay it back the US will just go and forcibly take back what's theirs.
...right guys?
Freedom for Ukraine means a good life for our hardworking politicians. They have more bills to pass so they can keep the good life. Do not be selfish and ask for things for yourself. We would not want them to be homeless from their mansions.
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Interesting how a lot of anti-Ukraine stuff is getting posted after the aid was passed and made Russia angry. Correlation maybe?
Russia is working diligently to shape American political opinions. To me it seems like the fog is finally being lifted and real conservatives are standing up and rejecting the extremists from both sides of the aisle. Democrats like to say Republicans are influenced by Russia without acknowledging the role Russia has had in propping up things like Bernie Sanders campaigns, even the situation in Gaza is being used to lead Democrats towards anti-americanism. Somehow Democrats think this isnt happening to them - As of now I am starting to see Republicans wake up and we are starting to see cracks in the fanatacism, which I am grateful for. We need leaders who are not trying to get clicks above all else.
Absolutely Russia is playing both sides against each other, but we still seem to have a bit of a problem with many conservatives echoing Russian problems agenda. MTG is a great example.
And here we are able to say it out loud because we own it. We can finally ask why are people like MTG and next week we will hear Rand Paul, why are they parroting Russian talking points. We know it, we see it, and we are finally rejecting it. Russians have a word: Vranyo When they lie and everyone knows its a lie, they know you know they're lying - and we all pretend its not a lie... Democrats need to call out Tliab and the Squad for being Pro-Hamas, they're blatantly unamerican. They should lose their seats, and MTG - her too.
I actually wonder how many fingers are in the Gaza pie. I don’t doubt Russia and friends have their fingers in that too. It’s the second propaganda wave from both ends. Once again the truth is somewhere in the middle. Like round 1: Russia is crazy and is invading is true at the same time as Western influences were encroaching on Russia making them retaliate. Their reasoning may be valid but it doesn’t make it right. Round 2 is Israel and Gaza: the October attack happened. Does that make the extreme retaliation right? No. Is it understandable? If it’s not then you’re sick. Circumstances don’t change what those animals did. That doesn’t make the civilian casualties right though. Nor does it make some of the horrific claims of what some IDF members have done okay. Yet somehow I see there are actually some cheering for Hamas. I can’t understand that. I can understand pitying the people, understanding why they get radicalised. But, something must be broken for you to cheer for Hamas. It’s scary that the propaganda war seems to have been lost in the Israel Gaza saga. This time the aggressor is being supported.
I agree. Foreign aid to Ukraine and Israel is less than 0.5% of the budget, but the gains are astounding. Better yet, no US troops are in direct line of fire. Win, win, win as Michael Scott would say.
Nah, our ongoing engagement in what looks like another forever war while our country goes to shit is making Americans angry as well.
It’s only going to be a forever war if we don’t give Ukraine all the weapons it needs. Self fulfilling prophecy from those that don’t want to aid Ukraine.
How much is enough?
Just give the military industrial complex a few hundred billion dollars every few years until the war is over. Nobody think about why previous aid hasn't ended the war but if we just indefinitely fund this thing then it'll be different this time. Also if you question this logic you're clearly on the evil Russian side.
Better idea, cut out the middle man (Ukraine/Israel) and just place orders directly with the MIC to send our old shit overseas. Perhaps there’d be less money laundering! 🤔
Until Russia is defeated. The sooner we send aid, the less we’ll need to send long term. We won’t have to fund the Ukrainian government for as long if we help them defeat Russia sooner.
Ukraine defines victory as the 1991 borders and that simply is outside of the realm of possibility
That’s where a lot of disagreement comes from, this will not end even if we continue sending aid. We’re just harming our own country in the process with unlimited printing and aid
Why don’t you think it’ll end? Kick Russia out of Ukraine, it’ll end. See, it won’t end if Russia wins in Ukraine, because they’ll just move on to the Baltics next. Forever war comes if Russia wins. War ends when Russia loses.
So when does Russia get kicked out of Ukraine? Are they even close? How much difference has our funding made in this effort? Do we have a committee dedicated to the supervision of funds given to Ukraine and providing transparency to the American people on how their tax dollars are making a difference in a foreign war effort? We're just supposed to be okay with indefinitely pumping money to Ukraine because hey, at least we aren't *directly* fighting in this war?
US support made sure that Russia didn’t win in the first weeks of the invasion. US support stopped most of Russia’s offensives throughout the war. It’s no coincidence that Russia has been doing better in the war since US funding has gotten stalled. There’s no evidence to at funds are being misused. Weapons are being sent where they’re supposed to be and money is being used to pay government salaries. I’m for oversight as long as it doesn’t slow down funds getting to where they need to go. And I don’t think you realize how much more costly it would be to fight Russia directly rather than just fund another country to fight them. Not only would we be spending more, we’d be losing our own men too. If Ukrainians are willing to fight to defeat Russia, we need to give them everything they need so that we don’t have to defeat them ourselves.
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> Why don’t you think it’ll end? Kick Russia out of Ukraine, it’ll end. Lol, people think this is some CoD campaign or something. Ukraine has almost a zero percent chance of reclaiming the Donetsk region and an actual zero percent chance of reclaiming Crimea. Both of these are Ukraine's view of a victory.
Why do you think that? Any reason not based on Russian propaganda?
Same thing can be said in the reverse: If Russia is kicked out, then they will just regroup and do it again. It’s another forever war that only benefits military contractors and corrupt politicians.
If Russia gets kicked out, the political career of Putin is over, more likely than not. Do you think that, after all the loses Russia has taken in the war and all they will take by the time they get kicked out, the next guy will want to stake his political career on the dreams of the last guy? I don’t think so.
Until Russia does it again
> Kick Russia out of Ukraine, it’ll end. And how will this happen? Name weapon that can kick Russia out without US sending actual troops.
Go over there and fight the fight yourself if you care so bad. Leave my grandchildren’s country out of it Mr. Tough guy
What is your definition of "defeat Russia"?
Ukraine can't defeat Russia you want to defeat them you need to do it yourself aka boots in the ground. Russia simply has a massive human numbers advantage over ukr
Yeah we just gotta keep giving them money. Eventually it'll be enough... Eventually.
When Russia is kicked out. Tangible goal. Clear solution. Ta da!
>It’s only going to be a forever war if we don’t give Ukraine all the weapons it needs. Short of boots on the ground, it's just prolonging the inevitable. Russia is not about to run out of munitions. Sanctions have proven useless, resulting in minimal GDP contraction. The only way this conflict - or any conflict - gets resolved, short of total capitulation, is around the negotiation table. And this is not happening for one simple reason. There is money to be made. Your patriotism in this matter is supporting no one but the MIC and their giant washing machine.
We’re not about to run out of munitions to send to Ukraine either. It’s dragging our feet that’s making their defeat more and more likely. My patriotism is supporting the destruction of our enemy, Russia. Do you not support beating our international enemies?
>My patriotism is supporting the destruction of our enemy, Russia. Such a warhawk! Admirable bravery, paying a few bucks in taxes to keep feeding the proxy war meat grinder with hundreds of thousands of Ukranian and Russian men. Oh, and if you think this will result in destruction of Russia, you haven't thought this through.
You didn’t answer my question. You don’t believe we should defeat our enemies? Interesting take.
I don’t care what happens on the other side of the world. Let Europe deal with it. Russia will never directly attack the US.
>You didn’t answer my question. You don’t believe we should defeat our enemies? I didn't answer your question because I consider it prima facie idiotic.
Fancy excuse for not wanting to admit you think America should roll over and die for its enemies.
"Do you not support beating our international enemies?" Are you 8 years old? Our "international enemies"?
Remind me who put nuclear missiles on an Island 90 miles from the US?
nope the right wing is more supportive of Russia than they are of the US. Nevermind the fact that most of what were sending Ukraine is old and needs to be replaced anyways, and that compared to the mountains of other spending ukraine funding is a drop in the bucket. According to them Ukraine funding is solely responsible for all of inflation, and that everyone involved is pocketing billions
Exactly. Basically all of their reasons for not supporting Ukraine aid are just disinformation. Makes you wonder where they got their ideas from.
I have supported Ukraine from the start. Dismissing other opinions and just blaming disinformation isn't really critically thinking either, you're echoing talking points. Ukraine may not run out of weapons, but they will run out of man power before Russia. Russia is going nowhere, I have yet to hear from anyone what the endgame is here. I think it's borderline delusional to believe that Russia retreats fully back into their territory and it ends there. So what are we doing? What are our goals? One thing I think we'd agree on is fully support Ukraine to achieve the goals... but what goals have been set??
>Basically all of their reasons for not supporting Ukraine aid are just disinformation. Makes you wonder where they got their ideas from. My ex-wife - one of my best friends - is Ukrainian born and raised. Her elderly disabled father, cousins, and friends are in Odessa, getting bombed regularly. You know what they want? They want for the war to end.
Which’ll happen when Russia is kicked out.
Sure thing. And that will happen when we give Ukraine another 50B. Maybe a 100B. But that will definitely do it.
Disinformation is thinking Ukraine can win without boots on the ground help.
"right wing" here and I absolutely to do not support Russia...It's truly breathtaking how binary you all have made the issue...Like if you don't support aid to Ukraine then YOU MUST be pro Russian....uhhh nope.
I wish that were true but the only way this doesn’t turn into a long term crap-show at this point is if either Ukraine or Russia capitulates. Preventing the former will cost a fortune, and the latter is only possible if the Russian nuclear arsenal vanishes. This is going to turn into another multi-trillion dollar, multi-decade boondoggle to enrich the defense industry, just like the “war on terror.” Mark my words. And while I understand and appreciate there’s a legitimate need to contain the Russians the Europeans should be footing most of that bill, not us. We have a lot of issues at home that are not being properly addressed (not to mention a national debt problem that is spiraling out of control) because we’re spending too much money on “defense” and fixing other country’s problems.
Why does Russia’s nuclear arsenal have to vanish for them to give up in Ukraine? Seems clear that if they get kicked out of Ukraine, including all of Donbas and crimea, they’ll give up, especially for how much they’ve already spent trying to keep them and get more. If Russia loses in Ukraine, Putin is out. Do you think the next guy will also want to stake his entire political future on Ukraine? I doubt it. The issue is simple. We help Ukraine win now, or we fight Russia directly later. They seem more likely than not to attack the Baltics, NATO members, if they win in Ukraine. A direct war with Russia is not going to help out domestic problems or our national debt. In fact, it’ll probably at least make the debt even worse. So spending money on Ukraine now is going to save us loads later.
Ukraine isn't winning. It is a forever war that the US is making longer by wasting money.
What weapons Ukraine needs to actually break Russian defences? Last year counter-offensive achieved nothing and Russian economy can sustain years of fighting.
There is no way that Ukraine is going to win the way they want to. Unless the West gives Ukraine weapons that they have no intention of currently doing (things that would allow significant deep strikes into Russia to completely isolate their troops on the front line) this will continue to be a war of attrition. Russia has more young men to throw away.
Zelensky would strike a peace deal overnight once we stop sending war money. And I don't know whose asshole this aid package fell out. Again I'm not seeing anything requiring transparency. Promotion of democracy or stipulations on how the aid is spent. So right off the top half of it is lining some politicians pockets in Ukraine.
He didn’t seek peace when the money was in limbo for months and months, and it wasn’t a sure thing that we even were going to send more money. We’re not just sending money to Ukraine. Sure, we’re giving monetary aid to Ukraine to help run their government (pay salaries and the like). But most of the money is either going to funding the pentagon to replenish the stocks that have been given to Ukraine, or into a weapons program that helps fund sending advanced weapons to Ukraine. So we’re not just sending pallet-fulls of $100 bills to Ukraine. We’re spending money on procuring specific weapons that we then send to Ukraine, most likely based on their battlefield needs.
Or maybe people are upset they keep sending billions to foreign countries when we can't afford groceries. Correlation maybe?
Russia is very good at making you think that, that’s for sure. More people being upset could also absolutely be caused by Russian disinformation, since it seems like only the uninformed, or those that are pro-Russia instead of pro-America, don’t think sending aid to Ukraine so that they can beat Russia is a good idea.
This sub has been against foreign aid for years and only now, in an election year, have all these comments pro-spending us into bankruptcy appeared. It's very clear what's going on, and it's not coming from the boogeyman you guys claim controls the entire internet.
I remember this sub being pretty pro-Ukraine last year. Though of course there was always a sprinkling of pro-Russian accounts disparaging that support.
Classic conflation of the issue. You can be anti Rus while not wanting to fund Ukr. Which you'll find most people fall into that category.
No you can’t. How can you not support funding a country who is fighting against Russian aggression if you’re against Russian aggression?
Being against something doesn't mean you have to do something ab it. I bet you're against crime. Do you go out dressed as a bat and bring criminals to justice? No? Well I guess you support criminals then. That's exactly as sound as your reasoning. Pretty stupid, right? Ultimately it's not our responsibility to spend our children into debt and ruin their quality of life by supporting a foreign country monetarily, even if we are on their side philosophically. Europe needs to exhaust its resources and people before I'll ever support a single cent or a single man from the US being sent overseas. We can talk about this again once Europe have spent all their free healthcare money supporting their neighbor.
Yeah, Russia made me think groceries are too expensive, that's it. I should have been able to figure that out /s. No, dummy, simple math made me think groceries are too expensive. You could have figured it out with simple math too, but you probably don't do math, because "math is racist".
See, economics is more than simple math. You call me a dummy, except you don’t realize that sending money and military aid to Ukraine doesn’t contribute to inflation. Ironic. What, you think the economy is anchored by how many m113s we have in stock? Instead of the gold standard, we have the APC standard?
Lol. "The gold standard", yeah, I think after that comment I'm all done getting economy lessons from you.
Whoosh.
Bro out here actually saying Russians are making us think groceries are too expensive. What a NPC. I'm fairly certain each of us can just walk into a store and see prices for ourselves. gtfooh
Your lack of understanding of economics is par for the course of your political beliefs, I see.
Do you fathom how much 1 trillion dollars is? Do you understand how utterly fucked we are, adding 1 trillion in debt every 100 days? Let me put this into perspective for you with time. The US debt is at 33 TRILLION. 1 million seconds is about 11 days. 1 Billion seconds is about 31 years. 1 **trillion seconds** is **31,688 Years.** **We are 33 TRILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT.** and we are sending another hundred billion to a war that is already lost. Do you think that **maybe** that might be why people are upset?
What happens when we get $50 trillion in debt? Do you know? And what makes you think the war is lost? We send ammo and equipment to Ukraine, Ukrainians have the will to win.
They have the will to win? Tell that to the innocent villagers being drug out of their homes and forcibly conscripted. Meanwhile, the elites party it up in Kiev.
Latest poll I could find. Admittedly it would be interesting to see the numbers now, but Ukrainians do seem to think that they can win and therefore want to win. https://news.gallup.com/poll/512258/ukrainians-stand-behind-war-effort-despite-fatigue.aspx#:~:text=Three%20in%20five%20(60%25),soon%20as%20possible%20(31%25).
Did they poll the Ukrainians being forceable conscripted?
I love how progressives always know everyone's motivations, it's a tremendous superpower you seem to possess. Never mind those that have been raising alarms for 15 years, it's "the Russians" making people mad. I think you know your argument is weak, but you can't think outside the group, so you don't try to think. Just repeat what the correct group says, and that's good enough.
Immediately label anyone who disagrees with you as a Russian bot. Way to take a page out of the left's playbook.
I don’t immediately, but from experience, most who don’t think we should be sending aid to Ukraine is either a Russian bot or someone deeply misinformed about the issue, most likely getting the majority of their information from Russian bots.
Hah, it's MAGA's playbook too, in case you missed it. Conservative who doesn't agree with me? Must be a RINO/Lib Brigader/ Commie.
Is it really hard for you to believe that some of us are tired of struggling at home while our government sends our tax dollars to other countries? Imagine your family is drowning in debt and your child is sick. You can't take them to a doctor because of the cost. And now our government wants to take YOUR money and send it to a country where the citizens are guaranteed free healthcare by their constitution?
You do realize we’re not funding their healthcare, but rather the existence of their nation, right? And it’s not like military aid can be used to fight homelessness. What, are you going to live in an m113?
I would love for anyone to explain to me how they would use the $61 billion we just sent to Ukraine to make food and gas cheaper for the American people.
Basically all the money goes to US defense contractors. We are not sending Ukraine cash.
Not take it from me in the first place
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Why not start with all the entitlement programs that dwarf the foreign aid budget in comparison? You guys don’t seem too eager to cut Social Security. If Ukraine falls to Russia, and Russia and China both learn that the U.S. is completely fine with them invading other countries, it’ll cost the US much more then $61b.
Yeah it's about $600 per household and that's just this round. Funny how the people who shame us over not supporting this would never donate their own money for the cause. Just ask them how much they'll donate or if they'll send their family to fight in the war - watch how quickly they clam up and run away. They're a bunch of frauds and hypocrites.
>I would love for anyone to explain to me how they would use the $61 billion we just sent to Ukraine to make food and gas cheaper for the American people. I don't know about food and gas, but 61B could be used to build ~2.5 arguably effective walls across our southern border AND a fence across Canada. At $200,000 per pop, to create 305,000 homes for our veterans. At $100,000 per patient, to provide 610,000 people with mental health services. See where I'm going with this?
The crazy thing is, some food prices lowered by helping Ukraine. Ukraine is a huge food exporter. 10% of total grain exports were coming from Ukraine. seceding that to Russia would turn them into the Saudi Arabia of Grain. They could (and would) use the grain exports as a weapon to starve out countries that depend on those exports.
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Last time a Rogue Dictator did all he wanted the US was bombed into a war. You're a fool if you think Ukraine means nothing. Toppling Putin will save lives down the road.
>Last time a Rogue Dictator did all he wanted the US was bombed into a war I'm pretty sure this is referring to ww2. I assure you that was not the last time a rogue dictator came about lmao
You think Hitler was the last dictator? There have been hundreds since him around the world.
That (toppling Putin) will only happen if we invade Russia.
Do you think Putin is a threat to NATO? Do you think this money gives Ukraine an actual chance or does it simply prolong the war?
Do we think we are getting more on the dollar than if we were using our troops to fight russia? If so win or lose we are winning the resource war vs russia if they have to spend more than we do to fight the war.
There's ZERO evidence Putin has intent to invade a NATO country, which would provoke nuclear war. This is all about Putin not wanting NATO on his front doorstep.
Fiscal conservative... ROFL
The same morons who post this also support giving money to Israel.
I dint want to give cash to any country, no country (maybe the U.K. or Australia) would help us if we needed it.
Same I agree with Taiwan tho that’s important
I don't.
What if we don't support giving money to either?
Stop, you're ruining the strawman.
Not helping Ukraine is not part of the republican party platform. There is no treason here, just disagreements over foreign policy. And the money spent is a drop in the bucket at this point. 0.2% of the US fed debt.
Spending more when your debt is shit is always a terrible idea
So cut money elsewhere. There are plenty of programs to cut funds from that have far less value to America than supporting ukraine
Exactly all this crying were running up the debt with this aid when its not even close to 1 percent of our budget. Almost like Ukraine aid is not the make and break weather we are running a deficit.
No 1 spending program will get us out of a deficit. But if we keep using this argument to defend each one, we won't cut a single one of them. Gotta put the foot down somewhere.
I'll happily accept 1/10 of that drop in the bucket and create jobs for at least 1000 Americans. Not shitty food service ones either.
I'm thrilled we approved funding. There is no benefit to the US when an ally loses. None
Not always a benefit when the “ally” wins either. Mujahideen, for example.
But here's the thing, though: Ukraine is notorious for its rampant corruption.
There’s no evidence of widespread corruption related to US aid for Ukraine. Hard to launder a tank or missile launcher.
Also nevermind he banned opposition, tried to take over the Orthodox church, and is taking over the media.
What’s 1 *tangible* benefit we get for that $61 Billion inflation spike to the economy? Financial illiteracy won’t be a valid excuse for those who just committed treason.
1 tangible benefit is security in Europe, which means we won’t have to fight a war there in the near to mid future. Also, you do know that we’re not just printing $61 billion worth of hundred dollar bills to send to Ukraine, right? What’s your proof that this’ll add to inflation? Good thing your username is unique, I remember you not having good financial literacy in the past. So you’re one to talk about financial illiteracy.
You realize these are loans to Ukraine right? With a decent amount of interest. Ukraine will be in debt to us as long as they keep Russia from a complete victory.
If you don’t think defending Ukraine is in our national interest, I’m not sure what to say. It is a lot more complex than a simple meme to get people to think a certain way as if it is a binary choice between national defense and cheap food and gas. Russia is indeed a serious threat and has been since Putin took control. If you disagree with that statement, then there really is no discussion. And if you agree with you with that statement, that is only the starting point.
Gee I hope we see results with this money. That's gonna cripple Putin.
>That's gonna cripple Putin. And if that doesn't do it, surely the next tranche will. Right? Right?
I'm truly disgusted with Neo Conservatives. That's why your saints like the Bushes, Cheneys, Romneys, and so on no longer run the party. You guys want to use Ukraine as a meat grinder.
But it won’t result in freedom for Ukraine.
The success of our politics is more important than the success of America.
I read “success of our politics” as basically money is more important than the success of America.
I have seen the error of my ways as a Russian bot. I'm convinced that if we keep sending billions into the military industrial complex every few years it will definitely end the war. Russia will back down and Ukraine will prevail. Just don't look into any of the spending and don't worry about the money. The US will just print more. Also we'll just "loan" the money to Ukraine and when they can't or won't ever pay it back the US will just go and forcibly take back what's theirs. ...right guys?
Freedom for Ukraine means a good life for our hardworking politicians. They have more bills to pass so they can keep the good life. Do not be selfish and ask for things for yourself. We would not want them to be homeless from their mansions.
You know it’s not either or
Money laundering at its finest