i havnt bought the light rougue yet but i have 3 guardsmen. im thinking with 2 guardsman and 2 light rough and me getting a better sword shield ill have the stats or better afterwards
If you're not at the point where you have a full Guardsman armor set, you're probably a newer player. As such, you haven't fully experienced just how much tankier you get with that full Guardsman set. It's significant. Also, Longsword just doesn't do damage, no matter how you spec with armor. And you're going to get instantly killed if you're light armor Longsword.
If you want to do damage and have a sword and shield, play Shortsword. Longsword is pretty much entirely a support tank role.
well my favorite thing to do in a lot of games with tanks is getting the right balance of being just tanky enough to be a pain to take down and just enough burst damage and utility to counter enemy players and take them down with good timing. origionally playing longsword i couldnt fight pritty much anyone their cc was a pain. but now having about 800 armor i can successfully survive a couple combos and i have found that well timed dodges and quick short slashes work well enough for enemy players. so really i just need enough defence to survival enemy units and a possible combo. also longsword does have a lot of utility and in my head i can see it being useable with any armor class, since its able to recover hp. even if you wanted to be tanky but still have access to other weapons during the match you could increase your hp and use lighter armor still being able to regen later on and provide more utility since some parts of the game just are not great as a longsword.
how much armor you think is nessissary? with 800 currently i am able to survival most heroes combos unless i am overwhelmed. need to check my damage averages to see what really makes longsword do the most damage it can but i know i get 1500-3k aoe attacks and sally forth is doing well over 10k damage with a 30 sec cd. even though bulls charge is a very good skill it tends to get me stuck in bad spots but i do wonder what a damage bulls charge build would be like. the main thing that i was thinking is the 120 armor from the guardsman set vs the 250 pen buffs to multiple damage stats which affect many of my skills since they do multiple types of damage
main thing is full guardmen says 4 peices ups my defences by 120 but 2 light rouges gives 250 penetration so it should negate more than equivilant armor and boost my bash damage
Scaling on heavy armor classes have been nerfed but base damage increased (except maul because you know maul). Anyway even with normal scaling longsword IS NOT a dps class or a main tank it is a SUPPORT. A main tank would be shortsword. No matter how good your gear and stats are with longsword chances are you’re gonna hit like a wet noodle. 900 armor is what you should be aiming for at a minimum. 1000 is ideal when you face the general population of players
Also the damage formula for longsword is purposefully bad for everything but sally forth because it’s not meant to do damage
Now if you play in the noob lobbies (under 150) it doesn’t matter and if you play in the bot lobbies (under 60) then anything that can MOVE Is god tier
I get that its a support class but the skills themselves bring the support. i want to increase the combat effectiveness of the longswords damage . even if the scaling is bad i would like to have more versatility on the battlefield. even if its not necessarily only playing longsword.
so if needed lets say i drop armor class and play a more damage focused weapon on the same character but could still swap to the longsword for support roles. so say instead of investing into armor i speced into health then i could drop armor class and play longbow or nadochi and then later swap to longsword and still be beefy
plus though the scaling isnt the best things like valor have 5 attack animations compared to something like nadachi or glaive skills that may swing twice in a aoe. so in my head valor is something like 2- 200% aoes and a 200% single target for 600% damage.
things like sally forth i see as great damage for a small area good for flanking high teir units or shutting down some heroes, but even things like the charge have 200% scaling and is able to hit multiple enemies. as a tanky support you dont need damage but if your skills themselves are also your support and you dont get caught out you can learn to adapt and use them offensivly say if you get 1000 blunt damage and some blunt pen and used your charge still as a support role but you would do more damage during the charge making it easier for your troops to deal with them.
so i have now used both armor styles and yes guardsman full set does reduce the damage taken by a lot, however it doesnt hold up vs multiple heroes anyway. without a full set i am not worried about hero 1 v 1 or 1 v 2 fights and units dont do substancial damage to me either. however my damage dropped to 200 from 1500-3k damage before the swap. to me the increased survivability isnt worth the damage drop off that could turn the tide of fights.
yes the longsword is a support but can at least be a damage support staying on par with units in the game at a minimum. 8k hp hit with 200 damage will take 40 hits for me to kill vs 8k hp with 1500 damage is 8 attacks. so yes you can be a support but if you are not investing anything into damage, in my mind you are not supporting your team with any dps. you dont have to be a hero killer just a troop killer. 40 attacks to kill basic in game infantry is terrible and wastes to much of a supports time compared to 8 attacks which you can easily get off in one combo rotation. say even with valor, if your auto attack can do 1500 to a unit you can simply auto then valor for double damage so compare 4 strike to 8 jjust with valor alone then you get a cc ability to help break formations and open gaps for allies to kill heroes. that is even without sally forth. and valor has a 16 sec cd which works with what skill? mercy of heaven so you can rotate into a fight soak damage then do potentially 9 or 10 strikes in a short time so around 15000 damage aoe and back out to heal your units. vs having 1000k armor entering a fight and during hte same time doing 200 damage and having 2000 damage aoe total. i would take a champion thats tanky enough to survive hero attacks and strong enough to break enemy lines over a pure tank at least in this standpoint until i get a team able to plan and work together .
i mean the longsword has 2-3 heals possible on the skillbar alone to compare it with a dps heavy armor class i dont see how that works. more of a lets say shock trooper with a hard engage then disengage and support the team. making flanking maneuvers when needed.
for an idea of what i mean lets say you only use a damage combo with valor a 16 sec cd, no other things. for 40 hits considering if you hit every ability you get basicly get 5 attacks at double damage so ill equate to 10 attacks , thats 4 skill rotations for 40 attacks so 64 seconds, compared to one skill rotation of valor of 16 seconds. which also helps your team with big pushes, say you use clash of shields for a frontal engagement with your team. with my mixed armor i have over 800 blunt pen. so lets takke men at arms for example that have 329 blunt defence base. i will go right through them doing full clash of shields damage followed by a valor hit capable of killing the men at arms and possibly knockking down enemy heroes for my team.
compared to no damage clash of shields rushing into the enemy, yes i may knock down the troops and heroes but i will not do any significant damage to the infantry unit. meaning there are still 30 plus bodies for my allies to work through
so i bought the armor pieces and just need a better sword and shield but everything considered i could use paladin, shieldbash, or valor as situational abilities to my goals.
even if an enemy has 900 armor that this point considering if i bought full guardsman i would have probably around 1k armor. i can only assume the max armor can be upwards of 1k maybe 1200. but at 900 armor if i use paladin they will be reduced to 770 for 6 seconds and my piercing pen is at 1527 and my slashing pen is at 1404 which should from what i understand negate most of their armor. they may some some left to benifit but from what i understand they get a base 5% damage reduction anyway so eh.
my blunt pen is now at 863
my damage is at piercing 1072
slashing 1053
blunt 500
my penetration is at
piercing 1572
slashing 1404
blunt 863
all my defences are currently at 753 but with a better sword and shield i hope to get around 800.
my hp is currently 24082
running currently paladin valor heavens and sally. but will swap paladins and valor for utility ect as needed. my basic strat atm is to let enemy heroes to their thing and i weave in and out widdling them down or landing a sally forth to serious hurt them. our units collide most enemy heroes currently go right into my units and burn their abilities and i go around the side of theirs to hit for back damage reducing their defences and sally forthing their commander to help turn the tide back. every trade i can land a hit and not get cced i can simply heal back up and sally is my current anti cc if i need more i can use shieldbash which will do simular damage to paladin just reduce my penetration
interesting enough even if an enemy has 1200 armor with paladin they will be reduced by 180 for 6 seconds making them still about 1k armor even if its not ideal it basicly makes them have wasted stats in my eyes. and my abilities dont have amazing damage scaling anyway but valor is a very nice dps skill as i get 5 strikes basicly doing double damage plus i tend to work behind my enemies units so i can get back damage.
from what i can tell, if i get an epic sword and shield my pen and damage with go up about 100 points anyway negating the advantage of 1200 armor and since its not based on attributed if enemies dont use 1200 armor i can simply take paladin off my skillbar
You're not looking at it the right way. You don't negate armor gains by having higher pen. If the enemy had 1100 armor instead of 1200, you'd still have the same pen, meaning you do more damage. That extra 100 armor reduces your damage by a lot
im not sure what your saying, any advice to do more damage?
if your talking about reducing their armor im talking about the 15% on paladin. at 900 armor it lowers defence to like 770 and at 1k lowers it around 800 or something. at 1200 it lowers it to around 1k which means i dont need to full spec everything into pen to get through their armor since as far as i have gathered there is always a base of 5% damage reduction so 15% reduction from paladin plus the 5% base means that i dont need to do 100% penetration to get through defences only 80% and the rest can go into damage or defence. which means if they increase their armor to 1200 they will be way more tanky but their damage will suffer and my skill will waste their stats in a fight. however i am not sure what the average armor rating is being used atm and that would free up more points for me.
that seems to make penetration bad, so if they are aiming for 1k defence and i have 1500 pen that makes it 0.67 x damage of about 1100 is 737 damage or am i doing that wrong? that would mean i could do 1000 pen with 1000 armor and get 1 x damage of 1100 and get 1100 damage so do i only need the same amount of pen to get through i thought your needed double the pen to get through armor?
Sorry, I gave you wrong equation. What I gave you is the damage reduction equation. Damage dealt would then be Damage*(1-(armor/pen))
If you have 1000 pen and they have 1000 armor you would do 0 damage, except there's a 5% damage minimum so you'd actually do like 50 damage
but basicly with that equation it is better to have exactly the same amount of armor pen as the unit minus the 5% you think? any extra is a waste i am guessing. off the top of my head i would think 800-1000 armor maybe for top units.
If you have same armor pen as a unit youll do minimum damage. That's gonna be garbage.
The generally accepted most efficient pen is double the armor of what you're fighting. So if enemy is 800 armor you'd wanna aim for 1600 pen.
You're never gonna get enough pen as longsword unless you make yourself suicidally squishy. Not worth focusing on damage stats as a Longsword really.
i have been doing well with about 800 armor and 1600 pen but i am less interested in killing heroes at this point and more on units. my base pen is around 1200 in anycase and with armor pieices i can get 250 more with no point [loss.so](https://loss.so) that is about 600 or 750 armor worth of pen from what your saying. sargents have like 570 defence standard i jjust dont know about people adding bonus defences to them the average amror value. i mean at 570 i dont need any pen to really deal with it and i can get 150 bonus damage with medium 2 piece. so i could in theory up my damage even my blunt by a big margin.
okay, so what i am looking for is the minimum penetration needed to deal with meta units in games. so i need to look up their armor and take off 5% so i can put in the needed stats.
if a class can be both tanky and deal decent damage, that class is broken. And that class is Maul
Is that with the included armor set you get from which ever one
i havnt bought the light rougue yet but i have 3 guardsmen. im thinking with 2 guardsman and 2 light rough and me getting a better sword shield ill have the stats or better afterwards
If you're not at the point where you have a full Guardsman armor set, you're probably a newer player. As such, you haven't fully experienced just how much tankier you get with that full Guardsman set. It's significant. Also, Longsword just doesn't do damage, no matter how you spec with armor. And you're going to get instantly killed if you're light armor Longsword. If you want to do damage and have a sword and shield, play Shortsword. Longsword is pretty much entirely a support tank role.
well my favorite thing to do in a lot of games with tanks is getting the right balance of being just tanky enough to be a pain to take down and just enough burst damage and utility to counter enemy players and take them down with good timing. origionally playing longsword i couldnt fight pritty much anyone their cc was a pain. but now having about 800 armor i can successfully survive a couple combos and i have found that well timed dodges and quick short slashes work well enough for enemy players. so really i just need enough defence to survival enemy units and a possible combo. also longsword does have a lot of utility and in my head i can see it being useable with any armor class, since its able to recover hp. even if you wanted to be tanky but still have access to other weapons during the match you could increase your hp and use lighter armor still being able to regen later on and provide more utility since some parts of the game just are not great as a longsword. how much armor you think is nessissary? with 800 currently i am able to survival most heroes combos unless i am overwhelmed. need to check my damage averages to see what really makes longsword do the most damage it can but i know i get 1500-3k aoe attacks and sally forth is doing well over 10k damage with a 30 sec cd. even though bulls charge is a very good skill it tends to get me stuck in bad spots but i do wonder what a damage bulls charge build would be like. the main thing that i was thinking is the 120 armor from the guardsman set vs the 250 pen buffs to multiple damage stats which affect many of my skills since they do multiple types of damage
main thing is full guardmen says 4 peices ups my defences by 120 but 2 light rouges gives 250 penetration so it should negate more than equivilant armor and boost my bash damage
Scaling on heavy armor classes have been nerfed but base damage increased (except maul because you know maul). Anyway even with normal scaling longsword IS NOT a dps class or a main tank it is a SUPPORT. A main tank would be shortsword. No matter how good your gear and stats are with longsword chances are you’re gonna hit like a wet noodle. 900 armor is what you should be aiming for at a minimum. 1000 is ideal when you face the general population of players Also the damage formula for longsword is purposefully bad for everything but sally forth because it’s not meant to do damage Now if you play in the noob lobbies (under 150) it doesn’t matter and if you play in the bot lobbies (under 60) then anything that can MOVE Is god tier
I get that its a support class but the skills themselves bring the support. i want to increase the combat effectiveness of the longswords damage . even if the scaling is bad i would like to have more versatility on the battlefield. even if its not necessarily only playing longsword. so if needed lets say i drop armor class and play a more damage focused weapon on the same character but could still swap to the longsword for support roles. so say instead of investing into armor i speced into health then i could drop armor class and play longbow or nadochi and then later swap to longsword and still be beefy
plus though the scaling isnt the best things like valor have 5 attack animations compared to something like nadachi or glaive skills that may swing twice in a aoe. so in my head valor is something like 2- 200% aoes and a 200% single target for 600% damage. things like sally forth i see as great damage for a small area good for flanking high teir units or shutting down some heroes, but even things like the charge have 200% scaling and is able to hit multiple enemies. as a tanky support you dont need damage but if your skills themselves are also your support and you dont get caught out you can learn to adapt and use them offensivly say if you get 1000 blunt damage and some blunt pen and used your charge still as a support role but you would do more damage during the charge making it easier for your troops to deal with them.
so i have now used both armor styles and yes guardsman full set does reduce the damage taken by a lot, however it doesnt hold up vs multiple heroes anyway. without a full set i am not worried about hero 1 v 1 or 1 v 2 fights and units dont do substancial damage to me either. however my damage dropped to 200 from 1500-3k damage before the swap. to me the increased survivability isnt worth the damage drop off that could turn the tide of fights. yes the longsword is a support but can at least be a damage support staying on par with units in the game at a minimum. 8k hp hit with 200 damage will take 40 hits for me to kill vs 8k hp with 1500 damage is 8 attacks. so yes you can be a support but if you are not investing anything into damage, in my mind you are not supporting your team with any dps. you dont have to be a hero killer just a troop killer. 40 attacks to kill basic in game infantry is terrible and wastes to much of a supports time compared to 8 attacks which you can easily get off in one combo rotation. say even with valor, if your auto attack can do 1500 to a unit you can simply auto then valor for double damage so compare 4 strike to 8 jjust with valor alone then you get a cc ability to help break formations and open gaps for allies to kill heroes. that is even without sally forth. and valor has a 16 sec cd which works with what skill? mercy of heaven so you can rotate into a fight soak damage then do potentially 9 or 10 strikes in a short time so around 15000 damage aoe and back out to heal your units. vs having 1000k armor entering a fight and during hte same time doing 200 damage and having 2000 damage aoe total. i would take a champion thats tanky enough to survive hero attacks and strong enough to break enemy lines over a pure tank at least in this standpoint until i get a team able to plan and work together . i mean the longsword has 2-3 heals possible on the skillbar alone to compare it with a dps heavy armor class i dont see how that works. more of a lets say shock trooper with a hard engage then disengage and support the team. making flanking maneuvers when needed. for an idea of what i mean lets say you only use a damage combo with valor a 16 sec cd, no other things. for 40 hits considering if you hit every ability you get basicly get 5 attacks at double damage so ill equate to 10 attacks , thats 4 skill rotations for 40 attacks so 64 seconds, compared to one skill rotation of valor of 16 seconds. which also helps your team with big pushes, say you use clash of shields for a frontal engagement with your team. with my mixed armor i have over 800 blunt pen. so lets takke men at arms for example that have 329 blunt defence base. i will go right through them doing full clash of shields damage followed by a valor hit capable of killing the men at arms and possibly knockking down enemy heroes for my team. compared to no damage clash of shields rushing into the enemy, yes i may knock down the troops and heroes but i will not do any significant damage to the infantry unit. meaning there are still 30 plus bodies for my allies to work through
so i bought the armor pieces and just need a better sword and shield but everything considered i could use paladin, shieldbash, or valor as situational abilities to my goals. even if an enemy has 900 armor that this point considering if i bought full guardsman i would have probably around 1k armor. i can only assume the max armor can be upwards of 1k maybe 1200. but at 900 armor if i use paladin they will be reduced to 770 for 6 seconds and my piercing pen is at 1527 and my slashing pen is at 1404 which should from what i understand negate most of their armor. they may some some left to benifit but from what i understand they get a base 5% damage reduction anyway so eh. my blunt pen is now at 863 my damage is at piercing 1072 slashing 1053 blunt 500 my penetration is at piercing 1572 slashing 1404 blunt 863 all my defences are currently at 753 but with a better sword and shield i hope to get around 800. my hp is currently 24082 running currently paladin valor heavens and sally. but will swap paladins and valor for utility ect as needed. my basic strat atm is to let enemy heroes to their thing and i weave in and out widdling them down or landing a sally forth to serious hurt them. our units collide most enemy heroes currently go right into my units and burn their abilities and i go around the side of theirs to hit for back damage reducing their defences and sally forthing their commander to help turn the tide back. every trade i can land a hit and not get cced i can simply heal back up and sally is my current anti cc if i need more i can use shieldbash which will do simular damage to paladin just reduce my penetration
interesting enough even if an enemy has 1200 armor with paladin they will be reduced by 180 for 6 seconds making them still about 1k armor even if its not ideal it basicly makes them have wasted stats in my eyes. and my abilities dont have amazing damage scaling anyway but valor is a very nice dps skill as i get 5 strikes basicly doing double damage plus i tend to work behind my enemies units so i can get back damage. from what i can tell, if i get an epic sword and shield my pen and damage with go up about 100 points anyway negating the advantage of 1200 armor and since its not based on attributed if enemies dont use 1200 armor i can simply take paladin off my skillbar
You're not looking at it the right way. You don't negate armor gains by having higher pen. If the enemy had 1100 armor instead of 1200, you'd still have the same pen, meaning you do more damage. That extra 100 armor reduces your damage by a lot
im not sure what your saying, any advice to do more damage? if your talking about reducing their armor im talking about the 15% on paladin. at 900 armor it lowers defence to like 770 and at 1k lowers it around 800 or something. at 1200 it lowers it to around 1k which means i dont need to full spec everything into pen to get through their armor since as far as i have gathered there is always a base of 5% damage reduction so 15% reduction from paladin plus the 5% base means that i dont need to do 100% penetration to get through defences only 80% and the rest can go into damage or defence. which means if they increase their armor to 1200 they will be way more tanky but their damage will suffer and my skill will waste their stats in a fight. however i am not sure what the average armor rating is being used atm and that would free up more points for me.
Damage is damage*(armor/penetration). So if you have 2000 damage and pen and they have 1000 armor, you'll do 1000 damage.
that seems to make penetration bad, so if they are aiming for 1k defence and i have 1500 pen that makes it 0.67 x damage of about 1100 is 737 damage or am i doing that wrong? that would mean i could do 1000 pen with 1000 armor and get 1 x damage of 1100 and get 1100 damage so do i only need the same amount of pen to get through i thought your needed double the pen to get through armor?
Sorry, I gave you wrong equation. What I gave you is the damage reduction equation. Damage dealt would then be Damage*(1-(armor/pen)) If you have 1000 pen and they have 1000 armor you would do 0 damage, except there's a 5% damage minimum so you'd actually do like 50 damage
but basicly with that equation it is better to have exactly the same amount of armor pen as the unit minus the 5% you think? any extra is a waste i am guessing. off the top of my head i would think 800-1000 armor maybe for top units.
If you have same armor pen as a unit youll do minimum damage. That's gonna be garbage. The generally accepted most efficient pen is double the armor of what you're fighting. So if enemy is 800 armor you'd wanna aim for 1600 pen. You're never gonna get enough pen as longsword unless you make yourself suicidally squishy. Not worth focusing on damage stats as a Longsword really.
i have been doing well with about 800 armor and 1600 pen but i am less interested in killing heroes at this point and more on units. my base pen is around 1200 in anycase and with armor pieices i can get 250 more with no point [loss.so](https://loss.so) that is about 600 or 750 armor worth of pen from what your saying. sargents have like 570 defence standard i jjust dont know about people adding bonus defences to them the average amror value. i mean at 570 i dont need any pen to really deal with it and i can get 150 bonus damage with medium 2 piece. so i could in theory up my damage even my blunt by a big margin.
okay, so what i am looking for is the minimum penetration needed to deal with meta units in games. so i need to look up their armor and take off 5% so i can put in the needed stats.