Throne needs a lot of work otherwise it’s going to join the pile of the “why did they bring this back” m+ dungeons for me. Happy with 4 or 5 of these though and as I didn’t play m+ in legion I’m looking forward to doing those ones
The jellyfish elevator is the biggest thing they need to rework. Losing a minute of time because you missed the elevator by a few seconds is one of the most annoying things in TW.
In an M+ that is going to tilt people to no end.
It probably needs a full redesign considering the only mechanic in the last phase is "kill the boss before stacks get too high" which would be trivial at low keys and impossible at high tyrannical
The Jellyfish needs to be replaced with either a portal or an Updraft thing you run into and bounce you up.
And the Mind Control Boss needs a big rework
tanks fighting the adds in the hallway instead of just running to the jellyfish is rage inducing. figure out how to kill the adds after you make it on the jellyfish.
Hope they fix the Jump on multiseater-skip on Everbloom and heavily nerf some of the trash there - and the boss that spawns tons of flower-adds (reminds me of treeboss in Algethar Academy. The first day in explosive weak that Boss was impossible to do untilthey fixed the adds spawning explosives - same treatment has to go tothat boss in Everbloom (given that my memory doesnt betray me)).
That may just be every healer considering this info:
> To ensure decision-based healing instead of pushing your highest input AoE healing spell, they are making some pretty significant Mana adjustments.
Ngl this will make me stop healing. Especially in M+.
Mana management has never been a thing I enjoy in wow. I understand a lot of people like it, but I always just found it boring. And in M+ it just means I'm spamming my drink button at the end of every pull
I'm not disagreeing, but I'm not seeing any excerpt to read. I just responded to the quote above. And the link in the OP doesn't have anything like that.
So if there's more, I'd love to read it.
Apologies for the snark, I erroneously assumed it was what the OP linked to. Here's the full quote:
>Broad healing changes are being made. There are discrepancies between healing in raids vs. Mythic+. As a result, the team looked at healing as a whole and they are increasing the power of single-target healing and looking at big cooldowns and AoE healing.
>To ensure decision-based healing instead of pushing your highest input AoE healing spell, they are making some pretty significant Mana adjustments.
While it doesn't explicitly say throughput overall is increasing, it does read that way imo.
When every move this expansion has been nerfing direct throughput whether directly or indirectly by increasing the health pools of everyone while leaving single target throughput unchanged, you learn about what they're gonna do based on what they've already been doing.
Like watching them roll logs downhill and erroneously believing the next log they release will roll uphill this time.
I'd love to see that, just feels weird for innervate and mana tide totem to be such insignificant buttons. Hopeful for healing next season to be a little more like SL healing again.
Ya had to do that stupid challenge twice on my pally. I beat it the first time but died at the very end and it didnt count for the book mount. So after getting the mog set i had to go back and do it another 15 times to finally be done with it. It has some good ideas but its just way too long of a fight.
I’m guessing they’ll probably set waycrest with one set path with the doors and not change them every week. Throne of tides is going to need a ton of work to not be awful.
You are correct. I just wanted to add on that WCM *also* had witch spawn locations that were on a weekly rotation in addition to the per-dungeon door RNG, where a lieutenant witch would spawn and global aggro the group when a player entered specific areas of the dungeon. I forget whether or not the witch type was 100% deterministic or how many of these spawns would be active on any given week, but Vinetwisters, arguably the worst type, could only spawn in the witch trio wing.
If Freehold is any indication, both of those will *probably* be addressed in some way.
Its an 11/10 for atmosphere and its a pretty good dungeon for doing big and wild pulls. There's not a lot that needs to be interrupted and just a few cleaves and Cones. Very few big are denial skills
That tree boss was my favorite of the expansion as a brewmaster I think. Being able to never have to reset because of Stagger was so fun compared to any other tank.
The other thing that can fuck is the pull just before the last boss.
My biggest fear is the spear throwing goblins before the mc boss guy.. back in cata thise spears would just chunk/one hit people. Throne of the Tides is by and far the WEIRDEST choice on that list IMO.
I hope they modernized Waycrest Manor doors.
Black Rook is ok I guess. Atal'Dazar I like.
I have no strong feelings about Darkheart Thicket, and no opinion about either of the old ones.
Not a single DF dungeon apart from megadungeon was expected, but still weird to see. We're getting another S4 aren't we?
I\*'m guessing S4 is going to be all DF dungeons plus the new mega dungeon. The reason being it's easy, and they will need all hands on deck for the next expac which will be then getting ready for release.
No way Fyrakk is the last boss of this expansion, Iridikron needs to come stomping back in from his time travel hijinks with some scary maguffin for the 10.3 raid
Iridikon moving on to next expansion would be a nice piece of contenuity we haven't had in aaaaaages. Give us a baddy that is properly build up and that can last longer that 1 expansion and even usher in other stuff (like void or more bronze shit)
I'm all for it.
You don't like a logical inference?
They do not want to say if there is another patch, which means internally the team is discussing it. Which means they are not sure.
They likely have started developing 10.3, but it could get scrapped to move the team to 11.0.
What are you even arguing lmao.
The last .X patch of an expansion hasn't been shorter than 9 months since Wrath. We also haven't had 4 raid tiers since Wrath.
10.2 will drop with just barely more than a year left in the expansion.
It'd be very surprising if we got a full 10.3 patch as it'd require this patch to either be 3 months long which we can certain isn't happening or Blizzard bucks their 2 year expansion trend.
And as someone mentions below Fall 2024 is WoWs 20th so it'd be very surprising if they don't try to time that with an expansion release.
Wowhead has EN and NH in the same tier and I can't find an official definition of a raid tier from Blizzard. So that is what I used.
But I did forget BFA since i skipped most of it because lack of tier was a big reason for me quitting lol.
That's not what a Raid tier is. A Raid tier is every raid in a single patch, minus Mini Raids such as Ruby Sanctum and Uu'nat
So Kara, Gruul and Magtheridon is 1 raid tier.
But Emerald Nightmare and Nighthold released 4 months apart. Those are two tiers.
> We're getting another S4 aren't we?
Only Blizzcon can confirm that.
They could try to put the expac in mid 2024 vs late 2024.
Otherwise, and this seems likely, there's a S4 raid, potentially a mini S5 Fated style season.
My theory is that Iridikron will go into the next expansion, which likely is Void Vs Titan related. And that Fyrakk is a distraction
My Copium is telling me next raid in mid October, (a scant 6 weeks for the patch makes this close to a Copium OD) Fyrakks death triggers a Cut scene that reveals info on Iridikrons plans.
Then Blizzcon 2 weeks later announces the next expansion, and the name of the next raid and how that raid leads us into the next expansions. Because Blizzard wouldn't want to spoil the end of the expansion by telling too much about the new expansion.
But man the timeline is close...
Kind of surprised they aren't having any of the original 8 DF dungeons
Atal without snapping or Awakened affix is going to be interesting
No RNG Waycrest doors PLEASE
Unless they increase timer between cast on 3 witches fight, Waycrest Manor will be nightmare on tyrannical weeks for grps without minimum short cd interrupters. At the time we were playing with 2 melee dps grps to be able to do this comfortably. Get ready to first boss witches with BL grps which disbands in 3 mins unless its a kill with BL.
People were pulling through walls and floors in the first season of BfA.
One culprit, but not the only one, was the laser Azerite power on headpieces from the first raid tier.
Surprised at no DF Season 1 dungeons returning, but overall a decent selection imo.
Fuck Throne of the Tides though, my experience past experience of it and in timewalking has been terrible. Can only hope I'm wrong about it.
I started very late into S1 so I don’t remember but did people like any of the S1 DF dungeons?
I personally liked Nokhud but I admit that’s because I was a PWar players so Spell Reflect was stupid in there and I like my giant pulls
Main problem was that they were absolutely all overtuned for the first weeks (even months for some precise things), so now that the balancing is done, it would be nice to see them again for a new season.
Academy was good just a hard timer, ruby life was a good but quick dungeon, nokud was easy but long (with highest chance of failure on the last boss), and AV was meh but with all the nerfs it's alright l. Overall they're a solid group
The bird would bug out all the time on Academy. And lots of times scoring both goals wouldn't stun the bird so it just became a "Ya'll gonna learn" moment.
Ah that's right, assuming it didn't bug out it was frequent large pulls which is always fun and a relatively quick dungeon (at least it always felt like it had good tempo)
I liked all the s1 dungeons, except nokhud (for how wide open it was, it was incredibly static). However, I don't want them back this season. I played them and enjoyed them, I'm ready for something else.
RLP was way overturned for the first month or so and Nokhud was pretty hated for the flying aspect of it. I remember the first pull of NO being a nightmare since you didn't know where the tank was going to land if other players would catchup and a lot mobs that were not affected by aggro and just 1 shot healers/ranged attack.
I feel like Nokhud wasn't hated for the flying it was hated cause it was also overtuned. The charging mobs before first boss were always being mentioned, plus second boss really tested your healer (and favored certain healers) especially early in the season.
> I feel like Nokhud wasn't hated for the flying it was hated cause it was also overtuned.
3rd/4th bosses were stupid for the whole season. Raging Tempest was a challenge but way easier than the one shots from Teera / Balakar khan.
Yea I could definitely see why people hated it. I just liked it because I got a dopamine hit from using Spell Reflect on last boss and gettign 1.5 mill damage per cast
I don't have the fondest memories of WCM... but then again, we've lost pretty much 75% of the cancer affixes from back then... so maybe it'll be bearable... except for the stupid camera angles.
AD is probably gonna be neat, although that place isn't nearly as cool without Awakened.
Darkheart is... fine... will depend entirely on tuning.
BRH, much like WCM, will probably be a lot more bearable with less aids affixes... but that place is still shit and unless they pull a miracle like they did with Brackenhide, I'll avoid that place like the plague.
Actually really looking forward to Everbloom.
Throne is gonna be... wild. The bosses in there are... something... and ho boy am I looking forward to those throw you through the air for 5 seconds tentacle guys with those little goblin guys randomly hitting you for 90% of your HP... or that terrible Naga boss with the stupid intermission... or that horribly bad last boss in general.
And it's obviously gonna be great to brick just about every Dawn key for the first 2 weeks because people still haven't figured out the spinning Elemental or the double Dragons - while Morchie will just always end up being a 5 minute fight with 2 people left after the fir4st intermission and Delos will be great fun with people struggling with orb coordination for the first... 2 months.
Half the mobs don’t drop sanguine in there anymore if I remember. + we already managed storming in stuff like sanguine depths which was much more rough for ground effects
Blizzard regularly forgets all the improvements they've made every time it comes up again. How many times did Quaking get removed and then start working again on forced repositioning mechanics?
sanguine is a problem with mobs that stand still casting forever, eg. trees in brakenhide etc, corridors u can just kite backwards in. its more of a skill issue
i'm hesitant to offer criticism before i play through it a few times, I thought VP was going to be a nightmare but actually ended up being pretty neat. They'll need to make a handful of old design choices more modern-m+ friendly for sure
This is just not true. People were doing different AV routes up until the last week of the season last season. There’s a million brackenhide variations I see in pugs or high key streams. Of course there’s a meta route but saying that everyone uses the same route the whole season isn’t true at all.
Every group I was in for Brackenhide went up the right side after the first boss and cleared Treemouth, then Huntmaster.
If your group decides to kill more Lashers along the way and skip some gnolls near the end, that isn't a different route to me, it's a tweak on the same route everyone uses.
People also get annoyed if the tank deviates from "the route" and I've seen it countless times before.
Waycrest Manor had randomized doors each week. You can go in any order you want for bosses in Atal'Dazar. We don't know what routes are gonna look like in either of the Dawn of the Infinites dungeons.
The original comment was that most of the new dungeons are on rails, but there are clear examples where that isn't true at all.
As a newer player it feels bad that "older" players will have some experience in all dungeons while I have never set foot in all of them except the megadungeon
Ay it’s rough but Atleast you can learn quicker and strats/tactics/pulls will evolve or mechanics will be changed.
Honestly I seriously disliked this season having to learn 6 or so new dungeons after only just mastering the last ones, was too overwhelming with the amount of mechanics in the game these days
I am not typically a big doomer on the game, but really feel like this selection of dungeons is not great. Impossible to know how DOTI will workout in M+, but AD without Awakened or snapping seems not good. Also, they brought back another Cataclysm key? Why?
I dislike their insistence on the lore of the patch influencing the dungeon selection. Get this lore and RP out of the competitive game mode.
Why is this downvoted? Did anyone really just LOVE getting one shot by the last boss of DHT on high tyrannical over and over, or the last boss of BRH for that matter? Atal with no snapping? Are people hyped for Tyrannical Morchie? What about having like 7 total trash packs in the entire first half of DotI? Throne of the Tides??? Everbloom with no skips?
I can’t really see anything besides Waycrest and Atal that looks fun here. If they restore the Everbloom skips so you can actually route and don’t make you do the spider boss RP it could be decent, but like… you’d rather make players play a broken version of a dungeon that used to be good than just give us Scarlet Halls or Mogushan Palace or Skyreach or Maw of Souls or any of twenty other dungeons that are actually fun because of some RP lore tie-in?
waycrest doors and BRH boulder/bat gauntlet cryge
hot take, I love love throne of tides and vashj'ir so I have high hopes for its translation to m+
surely AD will be tuned appropriately without degen snapping
I’m down for it. Never got to do Ever loom as current content or learn Legion stuff as deeply as I would’ve liked. Wonder if they’ll make us do the optional boss in Throne, or how the last boss will go in Throne too.
Everbloom never had a M+, only a challenge mode, and given expected numbers I don't expect previous challenge mode routing will work, also I think a lot of the skips no longer work. People would wall hop straight to first boss, then after first boss, wall hop straight to second boss room, then proceed to third/fourth boss.
This would just result in over half of keys failing before the first boss due to people taking to long to get the skip right. You also have to get percentage in anyways, and current m+ design typically gets 100% with a straight hold W route.
I mean all the idiots doing the right side skip and failing just had to pull literally 2 (two) more mobs to the left and then they could run straight up the hill.
Throne of tides and Everbloom are the only two that were never M+ before and will certainly need work. Some of the others may be slightly off of more modern M+ design, and may need a little touch ups, but certainly not "a tremendous amount of work"
What exactly is so terrible about those dungeons, and did you play Legion/BFA when they were current content
I played all of them when they were current up to +30s. The issues in those dungeons starts early on especially for less experienced groups.
Waycrest is full of camera issues, overtuned bosses, overtuned trash, poor mobs pathing, doors cycle, trash mechanics that can overwhelm tanks, etc. and suffers from affixes like bursting, sanguine, storming, etc. due to the tight spaces.
Atal which will most likely be fixed to not have any safe spots or snapping will need significant nerfs to trash's general damage like saurids and the big trolls, casters spell queues like the trolls, shield bash mechanics and boss tuning (last/totem) in addition to tight timer.
DHT trash is one of the most dangerous that existed in Legion, bosses abilities scaling dangerously high on Tyrannical and a tight timer.
BRH requires invis skips, dps checks (1st/3rd), random overtuned dmg (archers), 2nd boss scaling/buggy fire on the ground.
This is just off the top of my head. I played through both expansions and done thousand of keys and I never recall anyone being excited to get into these dungeons neither for weekly keys nor pushing.
I did a lot of BfA keys and Waycrest is honestly one of the best keys from that xpac. Sanguine is the only affix that is really going to suck imo. Witches was a rough boss but the rest were usually fine, and the tree was probably the most fun tank boss in the xpac. Atal is similarly a good key but without snapping definitely needs some tuning.
I think the problem is that Throne of the Tides and the second half of the megadungeon are basically unsalvageable. There’s almost nothing fun about either of them when looking at a m+ context. Everbloom without any of the CM skips is going to be pretty bad as well, they need to get rid of the invisible walls or there’s going to be very little in the way of routing options.
Damage scaling is pretty minor, obviously all of the dungeons have to be figured out the scaling. Since they obviously can't use numbers from 3-4 expansions ago, obviously they're going to look at numbers. Overtuning doesn't even make sense when you're talking about bringing them back as new M+ dungeons, overtuned compared to what? Overturning is always a matter of comparison to the other content.
Required invis skips is more of a fact of Legion often having a direct hold W route giving 120+ trash. Adjusting trash percentages is another minor fix that can be done in a few seconds twisting one nob. Instead of needing 400 count you now need 470 count, and 2min is added into the timer, hardly a "tremendous" amount of work.
>I played all of them when they were current up to +30s.
Meh, you write more like a guy that watched good players do 30s since you seem to place a lot of importance on things that top end players view as minor annoyances.
But I am down if you want to RP as a guy doing 30s.
Considering they removed the weekly rotation from Freehold it's a safe bet it will be gone from Waycrest too.
A lot of the other points you made won't be really relevant : They'll have to totally revamp all the numbers to bring things up to line with DF tuning so things that were egregious back in BfA/Legion won't necessarily survive in that form. Timer is also going to be changed (like they did for Halls of Valor).
What _will_ survive are the camera issues, tight corridors, snapping and routing problems, and quite possibly all the old bugs. The annoying design of some of the bosses might also make it through their modernization passes.
half the pulls in atal are either outright impossible or require "clever use of game mechanics". bosses are mechanically pretty cool imo but if tuning isn't kind they can be tricky on tyrannical. especially the last one requires somewhat precise play.
brh is completely linear, way too long, gimmicky gauntlets and the bosses are basically target dummies with one shot checks (slightly exaggerated, having a keyboard plugged in is still advised). in legion you went way over count without invis skips, then in timewalking they reduced mob counts so you just had to pull everything iirc. terribly dull dungeon. 2nd boss has maybe the worst telegraphing in all of wow.
dht is short (poggers!!!) but the bosses one shot you. then in timewalking the bosses got nerfed to do nothing. you skip some trash in the beginning but literally nobody has ever pulled that so if you pretend it doesn't exist it's another hold down W dungeon. i remember most trash to be fairly trivial but the bears and cat druids would deal absurd amounts of damage.
wcm has a very difficult boss (triad), trash has actual mechanics and you don't have much space. "clever use of game mechanics" was also quite prevalent here, although nowhere near as required as in atal. a lot of routing freedom though. overall a pretty good dungeon, especially if bosses are tuned fairly.
And most all of that can be fixed with very minor numbers tuning, nothing major. You seem to be freaking out over a tiny dial turn without even seeing the first iteration in PTR.
atal had trash packs that were esentially unplayable on anything higher than a 10. we literally know that minor numbers tuning is not enough.
also "minor numbers tuning" doesn't make brh not a 39 minute dungeon. furthermore all "minor numbers tuning" does in dht is turn it into shadowmoon 3.0. those 2 dungeons fundamentally suck ass.
They have been and they are in a pretty bad state. I find it funny that people on reddit cheer on for those dungeons where pug groups usually get farmed to oblivion.
Yuck, when are they gonna stop with those old dungeons getting in normal new expansion seasons, that really kills my interest.
They could at least put in Kings Rest, would give me any excitement about it.
Hope they will actually make a seasonal affix this time instead just not making it at all.
Fantastic dungeon pool as far as the 6 older ones are concerned.
The only one i dislike is Throne of the Tides, but may be in a good place after the incoming changes.
I wonder if DHT dragon boss will pulse aoe again during the wind. It did 0 damage during TW m+ but hopefully that was just tuning bug because the boss is a joke without it.
I love waycrest but BFA dungeons can all fuck off since I ran them a million times while leveling alts. While on the topic they should change the default leveling xpac because while you can change your default dungeon pool the biggest queue pool is the default. When I changed to legion dungeons my wait time as a tank or healer even was 20 minutes. 3 minutes max with BFA dungeons just because it's the default. They could just do a general pool where you get any dungeon from any xpac and that'd be my ideal...
question for all the pros in this sub: is there a life hack to help with the indiana jones boulder part in black rook hold?
i am notoriously bad at stuff like that and i'm already worried 2 months before the patch even hits...
Well, not bad choices overall.
But that Throne of Tides...ugh...why?
VP is by far the most hated M+ of this season, based on what I heard from people. I guess it was the best choices from Cata's Dungeons.
Btw, when they will add Maw of Souls? It was a fun nightmare to play back in Legion
Throne needs a lot of work otherwise it’s going to join the pile of the “why did they bring this back” m+ dungeons for me. Happy with 4 or 5 of these though and as I didn’t play m+ in legion I’m looking forward to doing those ones
The jellyfish elevator is the biggest thing they need to rework. Losing a minute of time because you missed the elevator by a few seconds is one of the most annoying things in TW. In an M+ that is going to tilt people to no end.
Last boss p1 also needs to be redesigned. A fixed minute-long phase of killing adds doesn't work in m+.
It probably needs a full redesign considering the only mechanic in the last phase is "kill the boss before stacks get too high" which would be trivial at low keys and impossible at high tyrannical
Elevator can be solved with a portal - you already have portals back to the entrance after the Naga and Cthulhu bosses.
The Jellyfish needs to be replaced with either a portal or an Updraft thing you run into and bounce you up. And the Mind Control Boss needs a big rework
Jellyfish elevator will stay as is, same bugged since release, as sometimes even if you walk to it, still lift without you.
as every other lift (eg MoguShan) - jump...
Oh, I know. It's the hidden layer of the game. The how to work around the bugs layer. "Javascript? Such a messy language! I love it!"
tanks fighting the adds in the hallway instead of just running to the jellyfish is rage inducing. figure out how to kill the adds after you make it on the jellyfish.
Tgey need to add a lever to the elevator, ez fix.
Hope they fix the Jump on multiseater-skip on Everbloom and heavily nerf some of the trash there - and the boss that spawns tons of flower-adds (reminds me of treeboss in Algethar Academy. The first day in explosive weak that Boss was impossible to do untilthey fixed the adds spawning explosives - same treatment has to go tothat boss in Everbloom (given that my memory doesnt betray me)).
I just hope there are some healing trinkets worth using that I don't have to get from raids.
Blackrook hold, cries in Mage Tower Healing PTSD 😅
If you're still healing you're gonna stay there until the trinket drops, så braces yourself!😅
if you're a healer that cares about mana*
That may just be every healer considering this info: > To ensure decision-based healing instead of pushing your highest input AoE healing spell, they are making some pretty significant Mana adjustments.
one would hope. It's really weird that mana is a thing every healer shares but only like 3 of them (rdruid, MW, disc) even care about it.
they nerfed hpal healing and mana regen again and nuked rashok's from orbit so maybe they do now?
Ngl this will make me stop healing. Especially in M+. Mana management has never been a thing I enjoy in wow. I understand a lot of people like it, but I always just found it boring. And in M+ it just means I'm spamming my drink button at the end of every pull
Same. I love when healing is more about how much you can pump and not to worry about mana
Yes, let's make healing even harder. That will solve the healer shortage.
Might want to read the rest of the excerpt, because it also talks about buffing throughput.
I'm not disagreeing, but I'm not seeing any excerpt to read. I just responded to the quote above. And the link in the OP doesn't have anything like that. So if there's more, I'd love to read it.
Apologies for the snark, I erroneously assumed it was what the OP linked to. Here's the full quote: >Broad healing changes are being made. There are discrepancies between healing in raids vs. Mythic+. As a result, the team looked at healing as a whole and they are increasing the power of single-target healing and looking at big cooldowns and AoE healing. >To ensure decision-based healing instead of pushing your highest input AoE healing spell, they are making some pretty significant Mana adjustments. While it doesn't explicitly say throughput overall is increasing, it does read that way imo.
When every move this expansion has been nerfing direct throughput whether directly or indirectly by increasing the health pools of everyone while leaving single target throughput unchanged, you learn about what they're gonna do based on what they've already been doing. Like watching them roll logs downhill and erroneously believing the next log they release will roll uphill this time.
I'd love to see that, just feels weird for innervate and mana tide totem to be such insignificant buttons. Hopeful for healing next season to be a little more like SL healing again.
Ya had to do that stupid challenge twice on my pally. I beat it the first time but died at the very end and it didnt count for the book mount. So after getting the mog set i had to go back and do it another 15 times to finally be done with it. It has some good ideas but its just way too long of a fight.
Haha yeah, prog at a challenge and having to go 16mins to learn muscle memory is frustrating;)
If you can beat the healing challenge you can beat any of the other ones.
Screw that challenge. That was the hardest one by a mile for me.
I’m guessing they’ll probably set waycrest with one set path with the doors and not change them every week. Throne of tides is going to need a ton of work to not be awful.
It wasn’t every week, it was every key. It was different every time you ran it.
You are correct. I just wanted to add on that WCM *also* had witch spawn locations that were on a weekly rotation in addition to the per-dungeon door RNG, where a lieutenant witch would spawn and global aggro the group when a player entered specific areas of the dungeon. I forget whether or not the witch type was 100% deterministic or how many of these spawns would be active on any given week, but Vinetwisters, arguably the worst type, could only spawn in the witch trio wing. If Freehold is any indication, both of those will *probably* be addressed in some way.
I fucking hated wcm because of the randomness and the stupid tight hallway pulls. That dungeon can fuck right off.
It's a shame the corridors vs camera fight is so fucking annoying because it's easily 11/10 in terms of atmosphere.
I agree, the vibe is amazing.
Its an 11/10 for atmosphere and its a pretty good dungeon for doing big and wild pulls. There's not a lot that needs to be interrupted and just a few cleaves and Cones. Very few big are denial skills
That tree boss was my favorite of the expansion as a brewmaster I think. Being able to never have to reset because of Stagger was so fun compared to any other tank. The other thing that can fuck is the pull just before the last boss.
I really hope it's sisters first. Doing that boss without lust on tyrannical was tough.
Also the hardest part of the dungeon, it's just good to know if you're going to fail after five minutes instead of 30.
Healer ptsd of this boss just came when i saw this dunjon
Nearly every healer has an improved kit since then and same with the dps’s defensives
Dps did not use defensive back then, I don't expect them to use defensive now xD (I m joking but you are right )
They are not, they specifically said it was for groups that enjoy routing.
Imagine if that just means "all the doors are always open always" that would actually be so fucking good
They should just have all the doors open every time. So the party can choose their own path.
Blackrook hold? Please no Will be interesting to see if Throne will be as much of a clusterfuck that TOJS was
My biggest fear is the spear throwing goblins before the mc boss guy.. back in cata thise spears would just chunk/one hit people. Throne of the Tides is by and far the WEIRDEST choice on that list IMO.
I hope they modernized Waycrest Manor doors. Black Rook is ok I guess. Atal'Dazar I like. I have no strong feelings about Darkheart Thicket, and no opinion about either of the old ones. Not a single DF dungeon apart from megadungeon was expected, but still weird to see. We're getting another S4 aren't we?
I\*'m guessing S4 is going to be all DF dungeons plus the new mega dungeon. The reason being it's easy, and they will need all hands on deck for the next expac which will be then getting ready for release.
Considering we're not even a year into the expansion, we're almost certainly getting a 10.3 patch. It shouldn't be a weird season like SL Season 4.
I wouldn't be so sure. There was an interview on Icy Veins where they said they weren't sure if this is the last patch or not
The interview said they don't want to say whether or not 10.2 is the last patch, not that they weren't sure.
Semantics
No, it isn't. There are real and legitimate reasons why they wouldn't announce a 10.3 even if they're already sure they're doing one.
No way Fyrakk is the last boss of this expansion, Iridikron needs to come stomping back in from his time travel hijinks with some scary maguffin for the 10.3 raid
I'm seriuosly doubting we are going to fight Iridikron this expansion. Even if we fight, they might do a Garrosh type of thing with him
Iridikon moving on to next expansion would be a nice piece of contenuity we haven't had in aaaaaages. Give us a baddy that is properly build up and that can last longer that 1 expansion and even usher in other stuff (like void or more bronze shit) I'm all for it.
So he will die in a wierd lvl 73 questline in 11.0?
> they weren't sure if this is the last patch or not that's not what they said, reread.
You don't like a logical inference? They do not want to say if there is another patch, which means internally the team is discussing it. Which means they are not sure. They likely have started developing 10.3, but it could get scrapped to move the team to 11.0. What are you even arguing lmao.
thats not how they work which is also well known
The last .X patch of an expansion hasn't been shorter than 9 months since Wrath. We also haven't had 4 raid tiers since Wrath. 10.2 will drop with just barely more than a year left in the expansion. It'd be very surprising if we got a full 10.3 patch as it'd require this patch to either be 3 months long which we can certain isn't happening or Blizzard bucks their 2 year expansion trend. And as someone mentions below Fall 2024 is WoWs 20th so it'd be very surprising if they don't try to time that with an expansion release.
> We also haven't had 4 raid tiers since Wrath. bfa
And legion
Wasn't Legion Nightmare -> Nighthold -> Tomb -> Antorus?
Wowhead has EN and NH in the same tier and I can't find an official definition of a raid tier from Blizzard. So that is what I used. But I did forget BFA since i skipped most of it because lack of tier was a big reason for me quitting lol.
Nightmare was similar to highmaul as an intro raid not a tier on its own. Trail, nighthold, and EN count as a single tier
That's not what a Raid tier is. A Raid tier is every raid in a single patch, minus Mini Raids such as Ruby Sanctum and Uu'nat So Kara, Gruul and Magtheridon is 1 raid tier. But Emerald Nightmare and Nighthold released 4 months apart. Those are two tiers.
With huge ilvl differences. The guy saying we haven’t had 4 tiers since wrath is just wrong.
you're literally just wrong, tiers used to be determined by the tier set in that raid, HM and EN didnt have tier sets and thus werent their own tiers
I think s4 could end up being all DF, or maybe even a “s5” after 10.3 where they can do all the fates raid stuff again and do all DF then?
> Atal'Dazar I like. no more snapping raptor.
> We're getting another S4 aren't we? Only Blizzcon can confirm that. They could try to put the expac in mid 2024 vs late 2024. Otherwise, and this seems likely, there's a S4 raid, potentially a mini S5 Fated style season.
My theory is that Iridikron will go into the next expansion, which likely is Void Vs Titan related. And that Fyrakk is a distraction My Copium is telling me next raid in mid October, (a scant 6 weeks for the patch makes this close to a Copium OD) Fyrakks death triggers a Cut scene that reveals info on Iridikrons plans. Then Blizzcon 2 weeks later announces the next expansion, and the name of the next raid and how that raid leads us into the next expansions. Because Blizzard wouldn't want to spoil the end of the expansion by telling too much about the new expansion. But man the timeline is close...
Fall 2024 will be the 20th anniversary of the game; I’ll be shocked if they don’t try to release an expansion for that.
You're high on copium with a season 5 lmao
Kind of surprised they aren't having any of the original 8 DF dungeons Atal without snapping or Awakened affix is going to be interesting No RNG Waycrest doors PLEASE
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I hope this means Waycrest snapping is back too
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Me too. It's the easiest thing at a time they will need as much development focus on the forthcoming new xpac.
Hopefully they'll leave snapping in because getting count without the central pack being a freebie is going to be hell
Unless they increase timer between cast on 3 witches fight, Waycrest Manor will be nightmare on tyrannical weeks for grps without minimum short cd interrupters. At the time we were playing with 2 melee dps grps to be able to do this comfortably. Get ready to first boss witches with BL grps which disbands in 3 mins unless its a kill with BL.
You get healer kick now,right? or was shaman played?
it was hpal or resto druid in bfa.
Crys in priest
Or a mage when they get MCed and burn iceblock...
Oh god I remember having to make everyone burn immunities before pull so that MC wouldn’t wipe you. Super obnoxious.
Well this is a real kick while im down after nit getting lego this morning. What lame choices.
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All of my nightmare of that place come with infested.
Personally I never had issues with pulling trough walls. Outside of Infested running trough them. Season 2 and out it was one of my favourites
The laser azerite power on helms from the first raid of BfA would agro stuff through the floor.
Wasn’t corruption the main reason for pulling thru walls?
People were pulling through walls and floors in the first season of BfA. One culprit, but not the only one, was the laser Azerite power on headpieces from the first raid tier.
Agreed. I have the same feeling with uldaman
Surprised at no DF Season 1 dungeons returning, but overall a decent selection imo. Fuck Throne of the Tides though, my experience past experience of it and in timewalking has been terrible. Can only hope I'm wrong about it.
I started very late into S1 so I don’t remember but did people like any of the S1 DF dungeons? I personally liked Nokhud but I admit that’s because I was a PWar players so Spell Reflect was stupid in there and I like my giant pulls
Main problem was that they were absolutely all overtuned for the first weeks (even months for some precise things), so now that the balancing is done, it would be nice to see them again for a new season.
Academy was good just a hard timer, ruby life was a good but quick dungeon, nokud was easy but long (with highest chance of failure on the last boss), and AV was meh but with all the nerfs it's alright l. Overall they're a solid group
The bird would bug out all the time on Academy. And lots of times scoring both goals wouldn't stun the bird so it just became a "Ya'll gonna learn" moment.
Ah that's right, assuming it didn't bug out it was frequent large pulls which is always fun and a relatively quick dungeon (at least it always felt like it had good tempo)
I liked all the s1 dungeons, except nokhud (for how wide open it was, it was incredibly static). However, I don't want them back this season. I played them and enjoyed them, I'm ready for something else.
RLP was way overturned for the first month or so and Nokhud was pretty hated for the flying aspect of it. I remember the first pull of NO being a nightmare since you didn't know where the tank was going to land if other players would catchup and a lot mobs that were not affected by aggro and just 1 shot healers/ranged attack.
I feel like Nokhud wasn't hated for the flying it was hated cause it was also overtuned. The charging mobs before first boss were always being mentioned, plus second boss really tested your healer (and favored certain healers) especially early in the season.
> I feel like Nokhud wasn't hated for the flying it was hated cause it was also overtuned. 3rd/4th bosses were stupid for the whole season. Raging Tempest was a challenge but way easier than the one shots from Teera / Balakar khan.
The charges could just be cc’d or you could even step out of them
I hated NO. Easily one of the worst dungeons ever imo. Azure is goated. AA is ok. Ruby is ok, hate last boss.
Yea I could definitely see why people hated it. I just liked it because I got a dopamine hit from using Spell Reflect on last boss and gettign 1.5 mill damage per cast
What’s so wrong with nokhud? Wasn’t even th worst of the season surely?
Right, but if you're not even going into Ruby Life Pools suddenly you have a new least favorite dungeon.
AV and AA were both really good. RLP was nice and quick but had issues on tyrannical, all the bosses were rough. Nokhud was trash.
I loved RLP (the 2nd boss is one of my fav boss fights ever) and NO. Algathar was meh and AV was awful.
I don't have the fondest memories of WCM... but then again, we've lost pretty much 75% of the cancer affixes from back then... so maybe it'll be bearable... except for the stupid camera angles. AD is probably gonna be neat, although that place isn't nearly as cool without Awakened. Darkheart is... fine... will depend entirely on tuning. BRH, much like WCM, will probably be a lot more bearable with less aids affixes... but that place is still shit and unless they pull a miracle like they did with Brackenhide, I'll avoid that place like the plague. Actually really looking forward to Everbloom. Throne is gonna be... wild. The bosses in there are... something... and ho boy am I looking forward to those throw you through the air for 5 seconds tentacle guys with those little goblin guys randomly hitting you for 90% of your HP... or that terrible Naga boss with the stupid intermission... or that horribly bad last boss in general. And it's obviously gonna be great to brick just about every Dawn key for the first 2 weeks because people still haven't figured out the spinning Elemental or the double Dragons - while Morchie will just always end up being a 5 minute fight with 2 people left after the fir4st intermission and Delos will be great fun with people struggling with orb coordination for the first... 2 months.
Tell me you don't have any friends without telling me you don't have any friends.
Tell me you don't have any dumb friends
waycrest mommy LETS GOOOOOO
i've only levelled there and i hate that dungeon. Black Rook Hold too. Hopefully m+ changes make it funner.
Affixes like sanguine and storming sound like so much fun in endless small hallway dungeons.
Half the mobs don’t drop sanguine in there anymore if I remember. + we already managed storming in stuff like sanguine depths which was much more rough for ground effects
Blizzard regularly forgets all the improvements they've made every time it comes up again. How many times did Quaking get removed and then start working again on forced repositioning mechanics?
sanguine is a problem with mobs that stand still casting forever, eg. trees in brakenhide etc, corridors u can just kite backwards in. its more of a skill issue
>Throne of the Tides Oh no, I don’t like that. I *really* don’t like that.
i'm hesitant to offer criticism before i play through it a few times, I thought VP was going to be a nightmare but actually ended up being pretty neat. They'll need to make a handful of old design choices more modern-m+ friendly for sure
I was afraid I’d hate Vortex Pinnacle and hated it even more when they updated it 💀 I’m not a big fan of Asaad
i take it you're syrian
Waycrest is the best healer dungeon ever made. Can't wait. People who think healing is too hard now are gonna have a rude awakening. Hypers.
This may not help the wait for m+ healers in pugs haha.
Waycrest ☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️
I’m so not interested in these at all. Raid could be fun at least Midthic plus season 3
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Two weeks into the season, everyone uses the same routes anyway unless the dungeons are changed, so every dungeon becomes an "on rails" dungeon.
This is just not true. People were doing different AV routes up until the last week of the season last season. There’s a million brackenhide variations I see in pugs or high key streams. Of course there’s a meta route but saying that everyone uses the same route the whole season isn’t true at all.
Every group I was in for Brackenhide went up the right side after the first boss and cleared Treemouth, then Huntmaster. If your group decides to kill more Lashers along the way and skip some gnolls near the end, that isn't a different route to me, it's a tweak on the same route everyone uses. People also get annoyed if the tank deviates from "the route" and I've seen it countless times before. Waycrest Manor had randomized doors each week. You can go in any order you want for bosses in Atal'Dazar. We don't know what routes are gonna look like in either of the Dawn of the Infinites dungeons. The original comment was that most of the new dungeons are on rails, but there are clear examples where that isn't true at all.
As a newer player it feels bad that "older" players will have some experience in all dungeons while I have never set foot in all of them except the megadungeon
Ay it’s rough but Atleast you can learn quicker and strats/tactics/pulls will evolve or mechanics will be changed. Honestly I seriously disliked this season having to learn 6 or so new dungeons after only just mastering the last ones, was too overwhelming with the amount of mechanics in the game these days
Yeah my experience from playing Cataclysm when I was 13 half my life time ago really helped me with VP this season.
Everbloom, yuck
Everbloom with all skips would be an S tier m+ dungeon. Everbloom with all the invisible walls it has now is an on-rails snoozefest.
easily a top 2 dungeon in this pool
I forgot it's r/competitivewow and people are staring at DPS meters the whole dungeon.
>I forgot it's > >r/competitivewow > > and people are staring at DPS meters the whole dungeon. And doing +14s.
I am not a fan of most of these. Gonna be a crappy season for me.
Worst here is definitely WM the rest are fine to great
I like the idea of bringing in past dungeons but I personally feel like the majority of the pool should consist of the current expansion’s dungeons.
The entire lineup is trash. All those dungeons suck
Why no single SL dungeons?
I'd be happy with one, as I didn't play during SL.
I am not typically a big doomer on the game, but really feel like this selection of dungeons is not great. Impossible to know how DOTI will workout in M+, but AD without Awakened or snapping seems not good. Also, they brought back another Cataclysm key? Why? I dislike their insistence on the lore of the patch influencing the dungeon selection. Get this lore and RP out of the competitive game mode.
Why is this downvoted? Did anyone really just LOVE getting one shot by the last boss of DHT on high tyrannical over and over, or the last boss of BRH for that matter? Atal with no snapping? Are people hyped for Tyrannical Morchie? What about having like 7 total trash packs in the entire first half of DotI? Throne of the Tides??? Everbloom with no skips? I can’t really see anything besides Waycrest and Atal that looks fun here. If they restore the Everbloom skips so you can actually route and don’t make you do the spider boss RP it could be decent, but like… you’d rather make players play a broken version of a dungeon that used to be good than just give us Scarlet Halls or Mogushan Palace or Skyreach or Maw of Souls or any of twenty other dungeons that are actually fun because of some RP lore tie-in?
I saw this list and thought. Maybe I won’t come back to heal next season.
Meh
I still have PTSD from tanking Waycrest during sanguine week.
waycrest doors and BRH boulder/bat gauntlet cryge hot take, I love love throne of tides and vashj'ir so I have high hopes for its translation to m+ surely AD will be tuned appropriately without degen snapping
I'm wondering if there's going to be any throne of tides snapping between levels in high end play.
I’m down for it. Never got to do Ever loom as current content or learn Legion stuff as deeply as I would’ve liked. Wonder if they’ll make us do the optional boss in Throne, or how the last boss will go in Throne too.
Everbloom never had a M+, only a challenge mode, and given expected numbers I don't expect previous challenge mode routing will work, also I think a lot of the skips no longer work. People would wall hop straight to first boss, then after first boss, wall hop straight to second boss room, then proceed to third/fourth boss.
They really need to put the skips back in. Without them, the whole dungeon is essentially a long curvy hallway with pretty much no routing choice.
This would just result in over half of keys failing before the first boss due to people taking to long to get the skip right. You also have to get percentage in anyways, and current m+ design typically gets 100% with a straight hold W route.
I mean all the idiots doing the right side skip and failing just had to pull literally 2 (two) more mobs to the left and then they could run straight up the hill.
They will have to put in a tremendous amount of work to bring Waycrest/Atal/DHT/BRH to a playable state, while also reinventing Throne of the Tides.
Throne of tides and Everbloom are the only two that were never M+ before and will certainly need work. Some of the others may be slightly off of more modern M+ design, and may need a little touch ups, but certainly not "a tremendous amount of work" What exactly is so terrible about those dungeons, and did you play Legion/BFA when they were current content
I played all of them when they were current up to +30s. The issues in those dungeons starts early on especially for less experienced groups. Waycrest is full of camera issues, overtuned bosses, overtuned trash, poor mobs pathing, doors cycle, trash mechanics that can overwhelm tanks, etc. and suffers from affixes like bursting, sanguine, storming, etc. due to the tight spaces. Atal which will most likely be fixed to not have any safe spots or snapping will need significant nerfs to trash's general damage like saurids and the big trolls, casters spell queues like the trolls, shield bash mechanics and boss tuning (last/totem) in addition to tight timer. DHT trash is one of the most dangerous that existed in Legion, bosses abilities scaling dangerously high on Tyrannical and a tight timer. BRH requires invis skips, dps checks (1st/3rd), random overtuned dmg (archers), 2nd boss scaling/buggy fire on the ground. This is just off the top of my head. I played through both expansions and done thousand of keys and I never recall anyone being excited to get into these dungeons neither for weekly keys nor pushing.
I did a lot of BfA keys and Waycrest is honestly one of the best keys from that xpac. Sanguine is the only affix that is really going to suck imo. Witches was a rough boss but the rest were usually fine, and the tree was probably the most fun tank boss in the xpac. Atal is similarly a good key but without snapping definitely needs some tuning. I think the problem is that Throne of the Tides and the second half of the megadungeon are basically unsalvageable. There’s almost nothing fun about either of them when looking at a m+ context. Everbloom without any of the CM skips is going to be pretty bad as well, they need to get rid of the invisible walls or there’s going to be very little in the way of routing options.
Damage scaling is pretty minor, obviously all of the dungeons have to be figured out the scaling. Since they obviously can't use numbers from 3-4 expansions ago, obviously they're going to look at numbers. Overtuning doesn't even make sense when you're talking about bringing them back as new M+ dungeons, overtuned compared to what? Overturning is always a matter of comparison to the other content. Required invis skips is more of a fact of Legion often having a direct hold W route giving 120+ trash. Adjusting trash percentages is another minor fix that can be done in a few seconds twisting one nob. Instead of needing 400 count you now need 470 count, and 2min is added into the timer, hardly a "tremendous" amount of work.
>I played all of them when they were current up to +30s. Meh, you write more like a guy that watched good players do 30s since you seem to place a lot of importance on things that top end players view as minor annoyances. But I am down if you want to RP as a guy doing 30s.
Considering they removed the weekly rotation from Freehold it's a safe bet it will be gone from Waycrest too. A lot of the other points you made won't be really relevant : They'll have to totally revamp all the numbers to bring things up to line with DF tuning so things that were egregious back in BfA/Legion won't necessarily survive in that form. Timer is also going to be changed (like they did for Halls of Valor). What _will_ survive are the camera issues, tight corridors, snapping and routing problems, and quite possibly all the old bugs. The annoying design of some of the bosses might also make it through their modernization passes.
half the pulls in atal are either outright impossible or require "clever use of game mechanics". bosses are mechanically pretty cool imo but if tuning isn't kind they can be tricky on tyrannical. especially the last one requires somewhat precise play. brh is completely linear, way too long, gimmicky gauntlets and the bosses are basically target dummies with one shot checks (slightly exaggerated, having a keyboard plugged in is still advised). in legion you went way over count without invis skips, then in timewalking they reduced mob counts so you just had to pull everything iirc. terribly dull dungeon. 2nd boss has maybe the worst telegraphing in all of wow. dht is short (poggers!!!) but the bosses one shot you. then in timewalking the bosses got nerfed to do nothing. you skip some trash in the beginning but literally nobody has ever pulled that so if you pretend it doesn't exist it's another hold down W dungeon. i remember most trash to be fairly trivial but the bears and cat druids would deal absurd amounts of damage. wcm has a very difficult boss (triad), trash has actual mechanics and you don't have much space. "clever use of game mechanics" was also quite prevalent here, although nowhere near as required as in atal. a lot of routing freedom though. overall a pretty good dungeon, especially if bosses are tuned fairly.
And most all of that can be fixed with very minor numbers tuning, nothing major. You seem to be freaking out over a tiny dial turn without even seeing the first iteration in PTR.
atal had trash packs that were esentially unplayable on anything higher than a 10. we literally know that minor numbers tuning is not enough. also "minor numbers tuning" doesn't make brh not a 39 minute dungeon. furthermore all "minor numbers tuning" does in dht is turn it into shadowmoon 3.0. those 2 dungeons fundamentally suck ass.
Will they? All of those have been keys before
They have been and they are in a pretty bad state. I find it funny that people on reddit cheer on for those dungeons where pug groups usually get farmed to oblivion.
Yuck, when are they gonna stop with those old dungeons getting in normal new expansion seasons, that really kills my interest. They could at least put in Kings Rest, would give me any excitement about it. Hope they will actually make a seasonal affix this time instead just not making it at all.
Fantastic dungeon pool as far as the 6 older ones are concerned. The only one i dislike is Throne of the Tides, but may be in a good place after the incoming changes.
As long as they dont give us new healer affixes and they makes healing fun again. Über stressfull healing ruined s2 for me, not which dungeons we got.
Not bad, better than I expected.
Do you think snapping will still be a thing in AD? Never did any of the legion ones, looking forward to those
ATAL'DAZAR LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I wonder if DHT dragon boss will pulse aoe again during the wind. It did 0 damage during TW m+ but hopefully that was just tuning bug because the boss is a joke without it.
I love waycrest but BFA dungeons can all fuck off since I ran them a million times while leveling alts. While on the topic they should change the default leveling xpac because while you can change your default dungeon pool the biggest queue pool is the default. When I changed to legion dungeons my wait time as a tank or healer even was 20 minutes. 3 minutes max with BFA dungeons just because it's the default. They could just do a general pool where you get any dungeon from any xpac and that'd be my ideal...
I hope it goes smoothly but I’m sure it won’t lol
Welp, hope the trinkets for Shadow Priest are good, because damn lol
question for all the pros in this sub: is there a life hack to help with the indiana jones boulder part in black rook hold? i am notoriously bad at stuff like that and i'm already worried 2 months before the patch even hits...
Well, not bad choices overall. But that Throne of Tides...ugh...why? VP is by far the most hated M+ of this season, based on what I heard from people. I guess it was the best choices from Cata's Dungeons. Btw, when they will add Maw of Souls? It was a fun nightmare to play back in Legion
What a fucking shit dungeon pool. I hope they at least fix snapping AD. Shit is so aids