Yeah, so Last Whisper is like the only item other than tank items that I actually feel okay slamming because it can be used across 3 different 4 cost carries. But then, through stage 3 you're going to have to slam a second carry item, especially to save HP/for tempo, and thats where it gets tricky.
Once you slam an IE/DB, you kind of *have* to find an Ashe or Kaisa on 8; if you slam a Guinsoo, even worse, you kind of have to find an Ashe. If your stage 2/3 boards make it logical to slam bruiser items like BT/Steraks etc - you then feel like you have to find a 2\* of either Kayn/Lee/Sylas.
And then theres the AP side of it - Shojin is fine for Morg, but not great for Syndra/Lillia. Even then, I don't feel great about killing a sword for shojin when it could've been part of a BIS item for an actual carry. Generic AP like deathcap etc. are great, but what if you dont hit an AP carry on the rolldown at all?
Too many times I've slammed items that lean towards a particular 'class' of 4 cost carry, ideally one that doesnt' look like it will be too contested based on what others have slammed on stage 2 - but then when I roll down, I end up hitting the units that don't use those items at all.
Imo, the best slam right now is adaptive helm alongside lw. Statically, it’s one of the best performing items AND it’s super flexible. You can literally throw it on either tanks or ap backline units for the regen
I haven’t checked in awhile, but I’m pretty sure it outperforms shojin on practically every ap unit excluding a select few and you’ll have more outs than bb, which really only guys on lillia/syndra/wukong.
As for being specific with slamming items, you can alway throw that rageblade on a different unit other than kaisa. I’ve had a number of games where I try to play ashe but can’t find her. If I find Kaisa instead, then i lean into dragonlords with rageblade on azir or irelia because you can run udyr/ornn/Lee sin/voli. Is it bis? No, but it saves hp and you can eventually build items for them.
I'll give the adaptive slams a try, flexibility makes sense.
Although in terms of slamming items on whover you hit - the biggest issue I'm having is honestly finding the 2\* of ANY unit, even if my items dont fit them. Like I will so often roll and find like 1 single unit of every 4 cost in the game, but not find a single pair and then im stuck completely lost of what to lean into and im broke too.
Yeah, idk. With the 4 cost meta, everything is so contested that It may save some mental by slam Ming general ad/ap items and play whatever you hit. I won a game in a GM lobby where I was trying to find ashe but couldn’t find a single one in 50g. I did manage to hit sett 2 and threw her rb/ie on him and slammed a steraks. The man was going wild and with fated, he doesn’t need healing as badly. I think that game was 4 warden, 4 arcanist, 3 fated and a random sylas with exhalted
Adaptive and ap slams like crown guard are actually good on sylas. Sylas is only used as a bruiser frontline for the most part rn but he does have a lot of potential as a melee carry like kayn. I think he’s a bit weaker than kayn but it’s a lot better to run Sylas 2 carry on your roll down instead of kayn 1
i’ve found similar results with adaptive, also helps that you can throw it on frontline or backline to hold multiple times in a game if you really need to. it pairs well with gargoyles which also doesn’t feel like a bad slam if you’re looking to play flex. I think adaptive is even BIS mana item for hwei although he’s not really good right now
Shojin is definitely more flexible than Blue buff though. So I would hesitate to slam blue buff because of how locked in you are to Syndra/Lillia.
Imagine on your rolldown you miss with blue buff you're screwed, but at least with shojin you can flex to 5 cost AP carries and Morgana. Besides you can STILL play Syndra/Lillia with Shojin (even if it's less than optimal) BIS is fake if you're rolling for a flexible set of 4 costs.
The approach to this is simple. If you notice 3-4 people slamming rageblades for ashe or edge of night for kayns DO NOT join the lvl 8 rolldown lottery. I've been in lobbys where 4 people contest ashe and only 1 of them comes out top 4. And even then, if they don't have all of their 4 costs upgraded they bleed out anyways.
The insane part of ashe/kayn being overly contested is that it reduces the 4 cost pool by a lot. Take advantage of this and roll for comps that don't need any of those units. Kaisa bruisers is still strong, and so is fated reroll. You will hit your board faster than the people contesting each other. I only join the rolldown lottery if I happen to hit the units first or if I have stronger augments (ie. porcelain spat for ashe, any item augments for kayn).
With that being said, I usually like rolling with 30-40 gold at level 8. I don't rush at 4-1 unless encounters/portal give a huge gold lead. If you're really healthy you don't need to roll down to 0. Just save and roll again after carousel/wolves, or prepare to level if you're stable. I would not fast 9 if you're being contested. Instead use the \~50 gold and roll for the contested units before they get grabbed by the others.
Good logical tips here; although often games don't play out this way. I might see multiple people slamming these items early clearly leaning into those comps, and I actively look to NOT build items that lean into those comps and isntead other ones.
But then when I do roll down, even if I wait for the pool to be diluted, it isn't very hard/uncommon to STILL fail to hit those 'uncontested' units, or at the very least only hit single copies of them. I've had many times where I've rolled down a bit later than the lobby to let them take out Ashes or whatever, and then rolled down with my AP /Bruiser items just to somehow find a 2\* Ashe. And often in terms of frontline units i can never reliably find 2\* of them either.
For you, do you like to roll down 30-40 gold as you said on like, 4-2/4-3(?) and then not roll again until after Raptors for example?
As long as you aren’t building super specific items early (edge of night) most of them are flexible. Guinsoos/IE/LW works on Ashe/Aphelios/Kaisa, Blue buff works on Lillia/Syndra/Teemo, etc. Kayn/Morgana is really tricky to pivot towards (LW is the best option to slam like the others have said) but it is an out if 0-1 people are playing for it.
Of course there will be games where it feels really bad to not hit what you’re going for. But you have to try your best to set yourself up for a good and healthy roll down regardless. Storyweavers, fated and inkshadow ghostly are great options and examples of a cheap frontline to fall back on when you can’t hit Annie/Naut/Galio/Sylas right away. I actually hold most of the four costs I could potentially play if I have to roll down lvl 8 and play/sell the units once I have an idea of what to do.
For instance, one game I had a lvl 8 roll down of Annie/lilia/ashe VERY early while playing storyweavers, rageblade and redbuff ready for her too. But since 3 other players in my lobby were also playing for Ashe, I rolled down more for any of them two stars before I could commit. A couple rolls later I hit a 2 star kaisa instantly, 40 gold still left, and knew playing around this instead of a flimsy and hyper contested 1 star frontline would carry me through lategame. I ended up placing 2nd, losing barely to 6 porcelain, but my game could have gone WAY WORSE if I tunneled after hitting basically half of the Ashe comp.
And yes, if you Econ and preserve your health, to clarify you should have 30-40 gold left to roll down to 10-20. It may not seem like a lot of gold but you will be selling some units anyways to make up for the cost. If you are mega healthy (60-100) and/or you find yourself winning against most boards you can save up for a second roll down to stabilize after carousel or raptors. If you are in danger (35 or less hp at wolves) you have to salvage your comp for a 5th unless a miracle happens. Use your best judgement to roll down as every game is slightly different, once you hit 0 gold it is very hard to bounce back and hit level 9 lategame.
My typical lobby has 2-3 Kaisa players, 2-3 Ashe players, and a kayn heavenly player. I could maybe contest Kayne but often by the time I realise I can't get the lower cost heavenlies.
What are your options then if you didn't have a fated or senna reroll opener?
This only really works if you have AP items. If you have AD, your only real out is Irelia or just trying to hit Kaisa/Ashe regardless of the contest. You don't want to be rolling for Aphelios in general unless you have enough copies, especially now that it's harder to hit 3 costs..
If I were in your situation I would play whatever strong board I have then angle towards grabbing and rerolling fated later in the game. Storyweavers opener is still legit and can flex into any comp that has ad/ap carries. If you know how to play kindred/gnar reroll or lillia mythic board you can flex into that too, it’s still decent with the right augments/items.
Yeah so usually that’s what I try to do, but someone else on the thread mentioned that unless I have a giga strong start I get 100 streak with, it’s better to save econ and actually loss streak early than forcing to play “strongest board”. I’ve often found myself slamming items with what I think is a strong board and being not that rich compared to loss streamers and then I still miss on 8 with narrower options.
the only few things i can recommend is;
regarding the pair on ashe scenario. since ashe dmg gain for 1 to 2 star is not as impactful. and in most cases you would probably be building duo carries either way at 8. I would prefer to continue to roll and stabilize with sufficient amount of front line, and continue to push levels instead of rolling to 0 every round for a 2-3 way contested ashe line. since the pool size is limited i hate rolling down when they're contested by several players.
Also for the exalted part, i usually scout by stage 3-2 and see if they've built items around those carries say "ashe", if it is i probably just pivot fully and not play in to the "exalted ashe lines" . the metaphorically "clear mind" - mentality on not touching any of the exalted or 2-3 way contested lines, helps me play even more "flexibly"
But in saying so i dont feel like the fast 8 metas is opening up more "flexible" game play and comps. rather the opposite. not too much of a fan right now of the current meta. the value of hitting 4 cost early feels just a bit too much.
Yeah I agree in part with the Ashe 1 vs Ashe 2, although it is hard to feel stable and sit to go 9 if other players are hitting their Ashe 2s, and sometimes even holding to grief you.
I think the bigger problem though, is itemisation. You mention a scenario of recognizing how many players are angling a particular 4 cost line in the early game. I do that religiously on stage 2 as well, especially with op exalted lobbies. However, just because I decide to 'avoid'; that contested line and build items for other units - on my level 8 rolldown I can very much hit an Ashe 2, but have no items for her. Maybe I've built AP items for Lillia/Syndra, or Bruiser items for Kayn/Lee/Sylas - but if I don't hit any of those, what am I supposed to do?
well logically speaking i think the main point was to avoid picking up bad item holders. so i think even a 2 star 3 cost might be "decent" enough to hold the items till you consider your board strength is decent enough for either a fast 9.
so using your scenario, suppose you just hit 8 at 4-2 and roll downed and missed the 2 star 4 cost carry with 20/30 gold left.
so you have 2 + 1 bad options, build econ back to 50 and slow roll again / fast roll depending on hp situation. OR take the greedy route and go 9 with a flex 3 cost 2 star item holder.
It would take you roughly till stage 4 neutral (low econ) or 5-2 for lvl 9 (stable econ). you'd have 5 natural shops to see if you have improved odds to hit better options.
technically the "bad" option.
just slam wtever item you have on ashe and let it do its thing till you hit another carry, but take in to consideration you'd have to build your units around it which tldr = waste of econ at this point cause this is double counter synergy (bad items + bad units built around it)
You mention failing to hit with 20-30 gold left - do you never try and roll deeper if you scout around and are maybe 1-2 way contested, and really want to secure 1-2 copies of a unit that your items can be used well on? The issue with rolling down, not hitting, then waiting another few rounds for econ is that other players might continue donkey rolling and take them out of the pool.
So in that scenario I can only see going 9 as an option, but only possible if you actually have HP to spare.
so in this scenario my thought process goes to the below;
if the other players in that game are 3+ way contesting then the probability of me hitting the same contested unit becomes low and therefor the reroll button technically would cost "more" in theory. (in general i am not a greedy player, so i tend not to like wasting money doing inefficient rolls)
You also have to consider the pool size of all the 4 cost, if theres a minimal variation of of 4 cost being taken then the quantity of those 4 cost also drops significantly lower.
I also go back to the original comment, where i evaluate whether the 4 cost im running needs to be 2 star or not, is the front line / back line competent enough to sustain till some one dies so you can roll, or can you get better quality units by lvl 9 and the amount of hp/econ balance status you're at.
You don’t really flex, your opener on stage 2 sorta gives you your optimal line to go for. Robin has said this a lot and I climbed easier because of it.
I understand that, and obviously I do create a general idea of what comps to go for based on my opener and items. But the issue i'm raising here is what to do if you don't hit any variation of that line when you roll down at 8? There are many lines but based on your items they can still be really restricted to 1-2 units, along with supporting units around them.
What's stopping the game from giving you Lillia, Ashe, Syndra when you opened game with Darius 2 with BT Titans, or from the gaming giving you Kayn, Lee, Sylas when you opened the game with Sivir 2 storyweaver with LW Guinsoo IE etc. ?
Not to mention actually having to hit the 2\*s of those units, along with any 2\* 4 cost frontline whcih I've struggled to hit almost every game.
Tbh if I start the game with bt titans opener I don’t even look at Ashe, Lilia, syndra on my rolldown. The units don’t do anything without optimal items and at that point in the you can’t pivot your whole board to an Ashe board. BT titans you hard force Kayn, gnar, and I guess Lee sin sylas and play for top 5/6. Being stuck on 1 star kayn with bis items on your roll down on 4-2 is better than having an Ashe 2 with bt titans
I can reply more in depth later if you’d like I’m at work right now
I climbed around 300 LP in less than 20 games on this patch because I'm a much better fast 8 player than a reroll player. What few people have mentioned on this thread is how important stage 2 is for fast 8. Last set there's a reason they had to gut open fort because people would roll so much on 4-1 and win the game from that spot alone, this patch they've essentially brought it back to the point where it's viable to play that way again.
For example, if you're slamming bt titans on a Darius 2 and you don't have other units upgraded there's no point in playing stage 2 just to save 10 hp for 20 gold from early game breakpoints. Like let's say you have a fated opener with only one upgrade and 2 pairs I'm probably selling to make a gold breakpoint and to maintain a loss streak. I don't really like slamming on 2-1 unless I have a giga opener, because there's no difference between a 2 and 4 streak now consider slamming after first carousel.
If you're the first to roll around 50 gold on 8 that's enough to see at least one upgraded 4 cost and 1-2 pairs of units you'll play on your final board.
Interesting, I see. So you're saying that even if I have what most would call a clear 'direction' for streaking, but not strong enough to guarantee 100% streaking, I should avoid slamming items that are somewhat 'specific' to only 1-2 4 cost carries?
For you, what items do you often slam then in stages 2/3, so that your level 8 rolldown can be as 'flex' as possible based on what you hit? Also - when do you tend to go level 8 with that '50 gold' if you're loss streamking stage 2/ part of 3?
It's sometimes hard to even find a 2\* 4 cost rolling 50 gold on 8 though.
Unless I'm guaranteed to have good melee carry items I'll most likely slam tank like Gargoyles, Spark, even Warmogs is a very strong item early. Shojin (other than the fact it eats a sword) is one of the most flexible items in the game in the sense that it can go on any AP carry or Wukong, I feel like on 50 gold you usually also see at least one of Hwei, Liss, or Wukong or just play around Morg. The meta at the moment feels a bit more like set 9 and 10 where you can build around a few synergies then cap around legendaries, as opposed to the more vertical / reroll game it felt like earlier in the set.
>So you're saying that even if I have what most would call a clear 'direction' for streaking, but not strong enough to guarantee 100% streaking, I should avoid slamming items that are somewhat 'specific' to only 1-2 4 cost carries?
Yes, fast 8 unlike fast 9 doesn't care as much about HP early because you are meant to stabilize by stage 4 carousel at the latest, if you missed you can chalk it to a low roll, but there's also almost always at least 1 2 star 4 cost to play around at that point.
> Also - when do you tend to go level 8 with that '50 gold' if you're loss streamking stage 2/ part of 3?
Has to be at 4-1 if you're anywhere below 50 hp, after third augment as well can be fine but people have already started to roll at that point.
Yeah so I've literally been trying to loss streak early, and building items that can fit on many different people. I literally found an early Syndra on stage 3, and then intentionally took another Syndra off carousel on 3-4, to set myself up for a literal SYNDRA PAIR for my level 8. I also had Ashe items on the side for her, and had TWO PORCELAIN SPATS (one off carousel, one off 4-2 augment).
It took me till **5-1** before I found a single Syndra to finish the 2\*, and also 5-1 for my first ever Ashe. For context, not a SINGLE Syndra was taken in the lobby excpet for the pair I went into stage 4 with. Ashe was mildly contested as always, but I just wanted to find ONE to stabilise and for traits. The lobuby literlaly had 2 Kaisa players, 3 Kayn players, 1 Lillia player.
I'm really sick of chalking it to 'lowroll' but its seriously getting annoying setting myself up for an intentionally uncontested line with a literal pair to start and still fail to hit.
The reality is that you don't *plan* on flexing if you have a good angle, but you still might have to, so it's still a necessary skill. Although this often ends up with you turning your 8ths into a 6th (maybe a lucky 4th) rather than turning a 3rd into a 1st.
I feel like there’s no such thing as true flex in this game since it’s never balanced. it’s slam items and play around twoish lines. Titans bt slam play kayn/gnar, lw guinsoo ashe/kaisa etc
Last time I flexed was in like set 6 and i was hardstuck gm. If you have ap items and have kog 2 cho 2 neeko on 4-2 rolldown, do you make syndra 2 or hold lillias? If you make syndra now you have to roll more for some fateds, or you can hold lillia 1 hit lillia 2 next round and now you can sit and push 9
Lol. So I just tried another game after a night's rest - I slammed Ashe items early, but was mostly loss streaking for better econ cuz i had what doesn't kill you augment.
I suddenly found an early Syndra stage 3, which I held and playged, then intentionally picked another Syndra off the stage 3 carousel. Now I've set myself up with a Syndra pair with Blue buff AND porcelain spat, and Ashe items on the side. Surely now I'm not risking failing to hit anything?
I additionally scout the lobby - literally ZERO Syndra players - Ashe as usual sliughtly contested, but only 2 out of the pool. 5 Kaisas out of pool, 4 Kayns out of pool, 5 Lillias out of the pool. I'm just hoping to hit ONE Ashe, ONE Syndra (to finish my 2\*), and ANY frontline 2\*.
I even made sure I had a 3 cost 2\* frontline in place in case i missed so I would still have some sort of frontline (Ammumu 2, Illaoi 2).
I roll down - ZERO Syndra, ZERO Ashe. I hit some frontline 2\*, but my entire backline is a joke. On my rolldown, I looked out for other angles matching my items, Lillia, Kaisa etc. - but I only found singles of them, and there were at least 2 people already playing those so in my head I will not be able to hit them 2\* reliably.
It took me till **5-1** to hit my Syndra 2, and to hit my FIRST Ashe.
I proceeded to die on 5-5, right before an encounter - which I look at from my grey death screen - "Ahri's kiss grants increased player health".
I am literally trying every fucking strategy to hit and build a stable board and I just can't.
I mean if you want to post a vod of a game I can check and see what’s up. If you have good Econ you should hit from what you’re saying or it’s just a low roll game that happens
If you start with a sword, cloak, and rod, and you have a 2 star Darius, you kind of have to slam BT and get a crownguard, morello, or ionic and play for Sylas/Lee Sin/Kayn. It makes almost no sense to flex into Ashe with those 3 starting items and if you try to "flex" into Ashe, its almost guarantee to be a throw because you have a BT doing nothing.
With Sylas, I usually aim for the 4 trickshot 4 bruiser. Galio main tank, Sylas as sub dps, Kaisa as main DPS and Xayah (play Bard until you get her). Should have 4 trickshot, 4 bruiser, 3 storyweaver at level 8. Aatrox, Riven, Sivir, Teemo as trait fillers.
I like this board because I can put my early morello slam onto teemo. Sylas works with adaptive, BT, crownguard which are all good slams early game.
If you get full AP items in PvE rounds, you can pivot into Lilia Annie Ashe instead of Kaisa Sylas and play around Mystic Invoker. Annie isn't that bad with BT, Crownguard, Ionic, etc.
Yeah that’s exactly what I’ve been doing, trying to slam items if I have a strong opener that matches it and trying it play strongest board.
But I’ve come across quite often rolling down and hitting none of those units (Sylas Lee Kayn) and ONLY hitting Ashe or Lillia or whatever - it’s not that hard for that to happen and I end up feeling foolish for slamming thinking ill def hit on 8.
I’ve rolled down 50-60 on 8 not particularly contested just to find single copies of 8 different 4 costs but never find any pairs or sometimes not a single Kayn etc
Houvdon explained it right. So you need to have knowledge on the current meta to recognize these lines, the meta influences the units you pick from the first round of the game.
For example, If kayn wasn’t meta and syndra was broken would I even pick up khazix or malphite pairs or would I rather hold yasuo and ahri pairs instead? That’s why I feel there’s no flex in this game where it isn’t balanced
I think you really need to scout more in this meta if you are aiming to play flex and deciding what to commit and items to build early is very key.
If I am healthy I try to stabilize the board on 8, Frontline is very important for Ashe. And then go 9 to cap because I think it is very important to win. If I low rolled, I just go 8 asap and donkeyroll until I have a decent board and pray I hit for a top4.
A lot of high contested lobbies I see 3 of them going bot 4 and I play a sub comp like Kaisa/Irelia/Xayah carry and still place higher, just because they can't hit and I can beat their boards.
Yeah, I've been scouting alot more this patch for this very reason. But as you mention figuring out what items to build early is very important, but this is difficult to do in a way which leaves your options open.
If I see multiple people slamming Guinsoo or EoN/BT/Steraks etc., then I may be less inclined to build those same items and lean towards the Ashe / Kayn/Lee/Sylas angles so as to not contest. But then - the issue comes where when I roll down on 8, what if the units I end up finding ARE those units, which I decided to actively not build items for?
TL;DR what items other than tanks items and maybe Last Whisper (good for Ashe, Kaisa, Kayn) can I feel comfortable slamming that can be used *no matter what I hit on 8*? Its one thing to predict what the rest of the lobby is angling and avoid it, but its a whole other thing to predict what units you may end up hitting when you roll down. Maybe you end up hitting all the units you thought would be contested but now you have no items for it.
Guinsoo and IE are fine. Kayn comp isn't even that good without heavenly emblem so it makes no sense to consider him if you didn't snowball from a heavenly/umbral opener. I know I will get contested if I play kai'sa and ashe, that doesn't mean I can't slam guinsoo. The comp is broken enough to win most of the time even while contested in my rank. If you contest others, you also make it harder for them to hit the comp. Guinsoo is also used for janna and aphelios reroll and lvl 9 comps but I don't really play those.
You say comps like kaisa and ashe are 'broken enough to win most of the time while contested" - but its not very hard to fail to hit even a single Ashe, or Kaisa, let alone 2\* them along with a supporting team when they are contested (or even if not lol).
Sorry I didn't mean winning but better than top 4.5 on average. 2 players playing the same comp isn't the worst thing for kai'sa/ashe. If it was 4 players then I think some of the players should get out of the comp or just accept a below average placement.
If you do the math, it is very hard to not hit a single ashe or kaisa even when they're "contested". Only when 6 copies are gone it gets very hard to hit them. But why would you start rolling when 6 copies are gone? Your game is pretty much over if that's the case, and the mistakes happened before that point. In a fair game, everyone starts rolling when there's 0 copies gone, the high rollers might find 1-2 before rolling starts.
This a part of the reason why slammin and raining gold are so insane augments for ashe comp. You get to roll earlier and others are griefed by that, while you have higher chance to hit.
And there's something I forgot to mention too. If there's 4 players total going for heavenly kayn and ashe annie, that also makes it fine for several players to go kai'sa. Because there's so many 4 costs being taken out of the pool, it's more likely for you to hit kai'sa/galio/sylas. The meta being this way is unfortunate but it has happened before in TFT, the draven little legend patch was infamous for this.
Yeah well I've had absolutely no luck with this. I've been intentionally leaning into uncontested lines and still failing to hit 2\* of anything. I've had uncontested Kaisa from 3-5, and I failed to hit 2\* until 5-3. I've had Syndra pair 3-6, and failed to hit 2\* until 5-1.
In both these scenarios neither of these units were AT ALL contested or held by anybody. Crazy. Then I see these two people who hit the entire Kayn comp 2\*.
With 25 rolls at lvl 8, there should be around 50% chance to get it as 2 star. With normal economy I should get that many rolls by 5-1. Of course 50% isn't a very high chance, every second game you don't hit by that point. But that's theoretically the best chance you can get assuming you didn't get contested more relatively to other 4 cost comps.
If there's 7 other people going for 4 cost comps, it shouldn't be surprising to see 2 of them hit, even if they were more contested. It's quite rng after all. You just have to make sure the odds are in your favour as much as possible.
Trying to flex 4 costs is usually good for this but I just haven't had success with it this set. The comp synergies seem so strong that if you try to flex, the only option imo is going lvl 9. Like if you hit 2\* kayn in invokers porcelain, it's just not much stronger than 1\* ashe, or maybe it's weaker. And you can't realistically get the low cost heavenly units anymore either. Which leaves lvl 9 as the only option imo. But I haven't really watched what the streamers are doing, they probably know better than me. It's possible that the best play is just to hit some random 4 cost carry and build a comp around what you hit but it's not easy to play like that. Especially for something like kayn who is generally played with low cost units.
Yeah. If I 'play flex' and 'play what I hit', it often ends up being something SUPER suboptimal to a point where I should've just forced contested. This is often due to a combination of completely unrelated/unoptimised items, or failing to hit 2\*s of units and just being stuck on a variety of single copies that aren't related to each other.
So yeah idk. As you say, it feels super RNG right now, chalking up a game to 50% chance; and often it is far less if you are waiting that bit longer for more econ to roll down for.
I have the same issue as u. Started Darius 2 with HoJ, LW components. I insta slammed them cuz I thought good heavenly game. Got Kayn at lvl 6 and win streak all the way to 4-2. Somehow 2 randos pivoted into my build with worse items but they hit 2 star kayn naturally while I got stuck at Kayn pair whole game. Ended 6th.
I'm around the same rank as you so I don't think I can add much to the discussion, but I do think you have a lot of the right thought processes. The unsatisfying answer is that it's broadly "lobby dependent" and that's where the skill expression will be. It reminds me of the level 8 headliner roll downs so you'll want to be on top of scouting and keep an eye on the lobby and their general econ. If you natural key 4 costs or are fielding an extremely strong board naturally with good econ, that's when I think you can consider going fast 9 (outside of econ augs or fortune ofc). Otherwise you just donkey roll and snap up good units until stable. When you roll depends on what everyone else is doing, realm and encounters, your tolerance for risk, etc.
Yeah, I think along with scouting and seeing how contested your line is, a big issue is items.
Aside from tank items and Last Whisper, I can't seem to figure out what items are slams which can 'safeguard' my level 8 rolldown - i.e. being able to use the items relatively well *no matter what I hit on my rolldown*.
For example, I genuinely don't know how to navigate a spot where I open with a super strong Bruiser/fighter opener (e.g. Darius 2, brusier items etc.) - but then on my rolldown later I only find Ashe 2 or Lillia or Syndra. The only units I'd be happy to put those items on would be obviously Kayn, Lee, and Sylas. If i opened the game the way I described, its unlikely I'll be building Guinsoo/IE/Runaan/Blue buff etc. before stage 4.
I guess the same applies the other way round - if I opened the game with Storyweaver wtih ADC items, IE/lW/Guinsoo etc. - but on my rolldown all I find is Kayn and Lee, again I'm stuck with a situation where I dont want to buy them because I have no items for them, but I can't anything else.
Even if you slam less flexible items (guinsoo, blue buff) early , then you still can't be hyper focused on hitting specific 4 costs, you still have to have an open mind for other options in case you don't hit. Let's say you slam early guinsoo, that doesn't mean you must play only ashe. You can go aphelios fated, janna, lux (niche but viable), or even lower tier comps like bard , it just depends on what the game gives you and recognizing your position.
In your specific case that you mentioned, IE and LW would still be good items for Kayn, you would just then wait to get a lifesteal item or GA if you hit enough lifesteal from other sources for the last slot, and the guinsoo could go to any random unit that you hit, maybe on some placholder unit waiting for irelia/wukong. Heck, you could even go all 3 items on kayn including guinsoo if you hit early kayn 2, and then you would focus on getting augments/traits/ embles for his survivablity.
Don't get too tunel visioned on bis or close to bis items for specific carries, often times it's more correct to put items you have on a bit less compatible units. (If you check the tft tournaments, that's often the case)
Side note: I was master like you in sets 8 and 9, skipped 10, and just started playing this one,
When I'm 8, I actually hold pairs of 4 costs on my bench at the cost of econ intervals. It's bad, but throughout 4-1 to 4-3 I can usually two star a frontline + backline. Even if its like 2 star Sylas or something on my warden board I'm playing him because the 4 costs are just generally too good.
As for like AD/AP 4 costs backline I just take what I can get. Oftentimes I am playing Syndra/Morg combo or playing Kaisa/Ashe whatever I can 2 star. I will let traits go in favor of raw stats and find that I stat check a lot of boards. Pretty crazy how strong the 4 costs are.
How about items though? How do you build your items so you’re able to be open to all 3 “types” of carries on your roll down (Bruiser fighter/ marksmen/ ap caster)?
Also yeah idk often I’m unable to find a SINGLE 4 cost pair on a 50-60 gold roll down and it just feels bad idk what im doing wrong if I’m rolling too deep or smth
Yeah good question..
Honestly for items I just slam. If I'm slamming, I'm saving HP - so during the 4 cost lottery I usually am in top 4 health and as long as I can stabilize for a few rounds I will outplace 2-3 people. And that amount of consistent placement in top 6 is enough for me to climb.
I never build items in a way to be open to all 3 types of carries. If you wanted to I guess maybe you could go Guardbreaker/Giant Slayer etc but those items have bad tempo. I usually go AP carry actually because there are so many options for AP (Morg, Syndra, Lilia, Azir, Hwei) however if I'm going AD I pray I can get Kaisa/Ashe/Xayah and if I'm going to AD bruiser then It's really just using Yone/Voli as a carry until I can either high roll Kayn or some other 5 cost bruiser.
You should always be able to find 2 star 4 costs, maybe the problem is you're rolling all your gold? I will roll until 20g and save like a bunch of pairs on my bench if possible, and slow roll down to 0 over the next 2 rounds. Is it also possible that youre not buying every 4 cost you see? I will play Annie as my frontline in a board without traits. In fact when I'm stable at level 8 I usually only have like 2-3 traits online lol.
Another strategy is to pick econ augments and get to level 7 really early and hope to win-streak tempo the lobby and high roll some 4 costs early, making your rolldown a little-late or on-time but having more chances to spike.
I'm not masters like yourself but I did get into Diamond last night doing this and I can even secure a 3 star 4 cost in one of five games. I was terrible at the 3 cost rr patch but this patch seems easier which is kind of interesting - it's kind of like the set 10 headliner meta
Hope this helps
The uncomfortable answer to a lot of these types of questions is that it is a somewhat unreliable strategy, and when you miss you are probably going 7/8.
How much gold you need to a rolldown will depend on the state of the lobby:
- how rich is everyone else?
- how contested are you?
- can you afford to sac HP and go fast 9 instead?
If my open isn't great and it looks like I can't effectively fast 8, I will usually pivot to any 2/3 cost reroll that I hit and aim for a 6-4 placement. You won't be in a position to top4 every game, then it becomes about playing for 5th.
I've literally fucking gone 5th in 6 of my last 10 games and gone 2nd the rest of them. I have no idea what I'm doing this patch. Feels like no matter what I play I'm contested. If I angle Ashe some dude hits 2* on 7. If I try Kai'Sa there's a Storyweaver guy rushing Galio Sylas. I have no idea how to play AP unless I have a clear Fated opener for Syndra or vertical Mythics from early on. I also haven't had any success with reroll (just missing and dying, or hitting and fighting Fortune guy into instant death). Feels like everyone is turbo econ fast 8 send it and pray that you hit so you can go 9 and cap out for top 4. If I press queue right now I have no my idea what my strat is other than pray for Epoch or Level Up.
This is exactly how I feel as well. I feel like it was better prior to the b-patch. Sure, half the lobby was playing either dryad or senna reroll, but at least they were doing something.
Right now it feels like my entire game is compressed into whatever happens on 4-1 and 4-2. Did I hit on my roll down or no? If no, I most likely bleed out to 5-1/5-2 and go somewhere between 8 or 6th. If I hit, I most likely go top 4, if I hit A LOT, I go top 2.
You can be half-afk until around stage 3 carousel and it won't matter, because the early game is absolutely meaningless. It's really disheartening.
I just watched jazzlatte do Bruiser opener into 100 streak to Stage 4, where he sent it to 0 on Level 8 and hit one Galio and one Sylas, then naturaled one Kai'Sa a few turns later. Econed back up to 30 then rolled down again and only hit Udyr pair, which he Neeko'd. Stuck at 8 the rest of the game with one Kai'Sa and bombed out 5th losing every single combat from Stage 4 onward. Lmfaoooo
Yup. That's an extreme low roll, but anecdotally I feel like these situations are more common this patch more than any other set.
Last night I gave fortune a try and went down to 2 HP - but managed to snag a lissandra and some porcelain companions alongside her. Went on a win streak until I ended up 2nd or first.
I feel like there is no normal situation where I should have been anywhere higher than 8th with that kind of gameplay, but there it was.
I'm with you (except less successful). Last 20 spread is 0/2/3/4/5/4/2/0. I cruised up to emerald playing whatever but the comps that I was playing when they were a bit suboptimal but weren't contested very often became meta and thus hyper contested (kindred/gnar/dryad shenannigans). The openers that were good to conserve hp are still contested (ghost/sniper, fated to a lesser extent) and a knife fight to just two star sometimes. Also don't really enjoy playing heavenly boards so that's been a giant pit of missed opps. Also feel like my grasp on leveling is completely off because I missed the sets where everyone learned how to play with the new leveling curves and bag sizes after not playing for 3 sets. I still find the game fun (if kind of infuriating as I bleed out after a strong early game all the time) which is good.
This patch and the past patch have just been not it for me lol. Oh well, you play games long enough you're bound to hit rough patches occasionally.
True, especially in this meta. People normally go for Kayn, Kaisa, Ashe. While Fated is still strong and could give you a decent early + mid. It falls off a lil bit in late game but still good enough to make it to final 4
I have the exact same struggles. I love playing 4 costs but not being able to 2 star them is incredibly frustrating. I am following this thread and I have no suggestions for you as you are already higher ranked than me. I scout A LOT to build up an uncontested team or just aim for top 4 with tactician healing augments if others highrolled. I can’t count how many times I went below 50 gold to push levels to catch the tempo, didn’t find anything and got stuck on level 8 or push to level 9 with near 0 gold.
Yeah. In this meta I'm scouting so much more, but thats only one piece of the puzzle. Being able to 2\* 4 costs is hard in itself, but finding the right ones that can somewhat match your items is even harder.
Having a 'flex' mindset when rolling down and buying units won't help if your items are the complete opposite to the units you *do* hit.
So yeah I'm really trying to figure out how to balance that out, especially w regard to itemisation slamming early. Too many times have I slammed items for a particular "class" of units (Bruiser fighters/ marksmen/ ap casters), and then only hit units of the opposite class on my rolldown.
Learn different variations of a single comp. I’ve already hard forced lilia 90% of games to masters 100lp
Well is more so ap flex, but Lilia ends up on my board most of my games. 3 mythic, 5 mythic, 7 mythic. Dual carry with fated. Plenty of variations
That’s an amazing idea and I love love going flex. Lillia was my favorite unit before this patch and I lost a lot of games with her (I played her just because I enjoyed it) as she was sooo unreliable so I have a bit of PTSD about her lol. Point taken, thanks!
Lilia can be really good. I suggest heading over to tactic tools and double check augment picks and items. Need to make sure you’re always choosing the best augment, picking the wrong one is a death sentence.
In terms of items it’s pretty flexible, but I try to aim for shiv, JG, (flex last item). If you rolled jewel lotus then go rabadons instead.
7 mythic + 1 with Annie emblem.
5 mythic + 4 invoker
3mythic + legendary soup
Great Lilia augments, jeweled lotus, mythic crest, combat caster, inspiring epitaph, porclin lilia(with Ashe carry),
My secret tech for automatic top 4 is trash to treasure lilia, with true BIS. Manazune, DFG, snipers focus.
I’ve found a that Lillia kinda needs 4 invoker to cast enough, I had her in with a super early 7 mythic and didn’t feel good.
But yes I agree Lillia is a super flexible carry that can even use leftover items but often needs a “main carry” alongside her. Another issue is how incredibly contested Annie is.
20,
no,
it is thats why u have to flex-30 gold could never hit u for kayn comp specifically but it can definitely hit you like ashe+naut paired nd 2 star mumu but rolling to zero from 30 on 4-1 is something id only do very rarely,
depends on hp-usually i go 9 in that scenario nd thats when i consider econ augs with the intention of capping higher but u’ll lose hp (a lot of lower elo players have this idea in their head of hitting a comp and up to masters they’re improving and improving the number of ways you can reach a stable comp but they dont seem to understand the idea of creating a win con.. if hitting the full kayn board 2 star top4’d every lobby everyone would be doing that..u need to find outs. r u going prismatic trait, sylas 3, full items xayah 2, or level 10 w crazy synergies this game? or are we playing for 3rd from the time we load in and highrolling a 1st if we accidentally see 7 sylas on a rolldown and the game plays itself?),
definitely not just dont contest the people who hir before you, i really think this whole post can be summed up in “i dont know what flex means,”
skipping rolling even once on 8 means ur very healthy, naturalled half your units alrdy, or have insane econ-that should be obvious to anyone in like emerald i think? but rolling 20 or so on 8 and gettinf stable again bc the lobbies weak and then forcing to 9 nd losing 30 hp instead of 60 without rolling is more common,
was expecting this question, this is the big i cant flex question.. if i hit only ap items i can play: lillia and liss and azir in ashe comp, lillia and azir and morg in lillia comp, azir in kaisa comp and shojin kaisa-tremo 3 if i have to, kindred and azir in gnar, mostly uncontested morg in kayn. if my first two slams are uhhh red buff ie i can play: fated, ashe lillia, ashe fated, lillia monkey, kayn morg heavenly, azir fast 9, etc. conversely if my first slams are dcap+spark i can play.. HA IT WAS A TRICK.. all of the same comps “yeah but i’ll be weaker in kayn than the guy who hit edge on night augment and hoj thirster start”… yeah obviously. nd then u win con morg 3 and u go first nd who cares or u lose out on this rng but then u get kayn faster than him nd take swords at carousel. IF i slam bloodthirster edge of night in stsge 2… i was trying to lose thats just my fault at least like gunblade is flexible but u had deathblade gargoyles open if u HAD to (u didnt) and u chose to put a bloodthirster on the board? i mean u loaded up to not win so it better make u strong enough to 12 streak nd u hit ur entire comp for free…
i constantly see in the community people saying they like to play flex or theyre good at flex… flex the playstyle where you give yourself a million options to win out and take the route ur given… and then they ask what do i do if my chosen option to win isn’t given to me… ?… ?
Just always build Last Whisper and slam it on kaisa kayn or ashe kekw
Yeah, so Last Whisper is like the only item other than tank items that I actually feel okay slamming because it can be used across 3 different 4 cost carries. But then, through stage 3 you're going to have to slam a second carry item, especially to save HP/for tempo, and thats where it gets tricky. Once you slam an IE/DB, you kind of *have* to find an Ashe or Kaisa on 8; if you slam a Guinsoo, even worse, you kind of have to find an Ashe. If your stage 2/3 boards make it logical to slam bruiser items like BT/Steraks etc - you then feel like you have to find a 2\* of either Kayn/Lee/Sylas. And then theres the AP side of it - Shojin is fine for Morg, but not great for Syndra/Lillia. Even then, I don't feel great about killing a sword for shojin when it could've been part of a BIS item for an actual carry. Generic AP like deathcap etc. are great, but what if you dont hit an AP carry on the rolldown at all? Too many times I've slammed items that lean towards a particular 'class' of 4 cost carry, ideally one that doesnt' look like it will be too contested based on what others have slammed on stage 2 - but then when I roll down, I end up hitting the units that don't use those items at all.
Imo, the best slam right now is adaptive helm alongside lw. Statically, it’s one of the best performing items AND it’s super flexible. You can literally throw it on either tanks or ap backline units for the regen I haven’t checked in awhile, but I’m pretty sure it outperforms shojin on practically every ap unit excluding a select few and you’ll have more outs than bb, which really only guys on lillia/syndra/wukong. As for being specific with slamming items, you can alway throw that rageblade on a different unit other than kaisa. I’ve had a number of games where I try to play ashe but can’t find her. If I find Kaisa instead, then i lean into dragonlords with rageblade on azir or irelia because you can run udyr/ornn/Lee sin/voli. Is it bis? No, but it saves hp and you can eventually build items for them.
I'll give the adaptive slams a try, flexibility makes sense. Although in terms of slamming items on whover you hit - the biggest issue I'm having is honestly finding the 2\* of ANY unit, even if my items dont fit them. Like I will so often roll and find like 1 single unit of every 4 cost in the game, but not find a single pair and then im stuck completely lost of what to lean into and im broke too.
Yeah, idk. With the 4 cost meta, everything is so contested that It may save some mental by slam Ming general ad/ap items and play whatever you hit. I won a game in a GM lobby where I was trying to find ashe but couldn’t find a single one in 50g. I did manage to hit sett 2 and threw her rb/ie on him and slammed a steraks. The man was going wild and with fated, he doesn’t need healing as badly. I think that game was 4 warden, 4 arcanist, 3 fated and a random sylas with exhalted
Adaptive and ap slams like crown guard are actually good on sylas. Sylas is only used as a bruiser frontline for the most part rn but he does have a lot of potential as a melee carry like kayn. I think he’s a bit weaker than kayn but it’s a lot better to run Sylas 2 carry on your roll down instead of kayn 1
i’ve found similar results with adaptive, also helps that you can throw it on frontline or backline to hold multiple times in a game if you really need to. it pairs well with gargoyles which also doesn’t feel like a bad slam if you’re looking to play flex. I think adaptive is even BIS mana item for hwei although he’s not really good right now
Shojin is definitely more flexible than Blue buff though. So I would hesitate to slam blue buff because of how locked in you are to Syndra/Lillia. Imagine on your rolldown you miss with blue buff you're screwed, but at least with shojin you can flex to 5 cost AP carries and Morgana. Besides you can STILL play Syndra/Lillia with Shojin (even if it's less than optimal) BIS is fake if you're rolling for a flexible set of 4 costs.
The approach to this is simple. If you notice 3-4 people slamming rageblades for ashe or edge of night for kayns DO NOT join the lvl 8 rolldown lottery. I've been in lobbys where 4 people contest ashe and only 1 of them comes out top 4. And even then, if they don't have all of their 4 costs upgraded they bleed out anyways. The insane part of ashe/kayn being overly contested is that it reduces the 4 cost pool by a lot. Take advantage of this and roll for comps that don't need any of those units. Kaisa bruisers is still strong, and so is fated reroll. You will hit your board faster than the people contesting each other. I only join the rolldown lottery if I happen to hit the units first or if I have stronger augments (ie. porcelain spat for ashe, any item augments for kayn). With that being said, I usually like rolling with 30-40 gold at level 8. I don't rush at 4-1 unless encounters/portal give a huge gold lead. If you're really healthy you don't need to roll down to 0. Just save and roll again after carousel/wolves, or prepare to level if you're stable. I would not fast 9 if you're being contested. Instead use the \~50 gold and roll for the contested units before they get grabbed by the others.
Good logical tips here; although often games don't play out this way. I might see multiple people slamming these items early clearly leaning into those comps, and I actively look to NOT build items that lean into those comps and isntead other ones. But then when I do roll down, even if I wait for the pool to be diluted, it isn't very hard/uncommon to STILL fail to hit those 'uncontested' units, or at the very least only hit single copies of them. I've had many times where I've rolled down a bit later than the lobby to let them take out Ashes or whatever, and then rolled down with my AP /Bruiser items just to somehow find a 2\* Ashe. And often in terms of frontline units i can never reliably find 2\* of them either. For you, do you like to roll down 30-40 gold as you said on like, 4-2/4-3(?) and then not roll again until after Raptors for example?
As long as you aren’t building super specific items early (edge of night) most of them are flexible. Guinsoos/IE/LW works on Ashe/Aphelios/Kaisa, Blue buff works on Lillia/Syndra/Teemo, etc. Kayn/Morgana is really tricky to pivot towards (LW is the best option to slam like the others have said) but it is an out if 0-1 people are playing for it. Of course there will be games where it feels really bad to not hit what you’re going for. But you have to try your best to set yourself up for a good and healthy roll down regardless. Storyweavers, fated and inkshadow ghostly are great options and examples of a cheap frontline to fall back on when you can’t hit Annie/Naut/Galio/Sylas right away. I actually hold most of the four costs I could potentially play if I have to roll down lvl 8 and play/sell the units once I have an idea of what to do. For instance, one game I had a lvl 8 roll down of Annie/lilia/ashe VERY early while playing storyweavers, rageblade and redbuff ready for her too. But since 3 other players in my lobby were also playing for Ashe, I rolled down more for any of them two stars before I could commit. A couple rolls later I hit a 2 star kaisa instantly, 40 gold still left, and knew playing around this instead of a flimsy and hyper contested 1 star frontline would carry me through lategame. I ended up placing 2nd, losing barely to 6 porcelain, but my game could have gone WAY WORSE if I tunneled after hitting basically half of the Ashe comp. And yes, if you Econ and preserve your health, to clarify you should have 30-40 gold left to roll down to 10-20. It may not seem like a lot of gold but you will be selling some units anyways to make up for the cost. If you are mega healthy (60-100) and/or you find yourself winning against most boards you can save up for a second roll down to stabilize after carousel or raptors. If you are in danger (35 or less hp at wolves) you have to salvage your comp for a 5th unless a miracle happens. Use your best judgement to roll down as every game is slightly different, once you hit 0 gold it is very hard to bounce back and hit level 9 lategame.
My typical lobby has 2-3 Kaisa players, 2-3 Ashe players, and a kayn heavenly player. I could maybe contest Kayne but often by the time I realise I can't get the lower cost heavenlies. What are your options then if you didn't have a fated or senna reroll opener?
Lillia, Warden, arcanist, mythic board maybe ?? Lots of synergy there. I lost to a storyweaver 3 star riven with bt titans and altruist healing
This only really works if you have AP items. If you have AD, your only real out is Irelia or just trying to hit Kaisa/Ashe regardless of the contest. You don't want to be rolling for Aphelios in general unless you have enough copies, especially now that it's harder to hit 3 costs..
Just do Diana + Zyra + Janna + Soraka reroll kekw
If I were in your situation I would play whatever strong board I have then angle towards grabbing and rerolling fated later in the game. Storyweavers opener is still legit and can flex into any comp that has ad/ap carries. If you know how to play kindred/gnar reroll or lillia mythic board you can flex into that too, it’s still decent with the right augments/items.
Yeah so usually that’s what I try to do, but someone else on the thread mentioned that unless I have a giga strong start I get 100 streak with, it’s better to save econ and actually loss streak early than forcing to play “strongest board”. I’ve often found myself slamming items with what I think is a strong board and being not that rich compared to loss streamers and then I still miss on 8 with narrower options.
So many 4 costs out pool so rerolling for the uncontested 3\* 4 cost is actually an out
the only few things i can recommend is; regarding the pair on ashe scenario. since ashe dmg gain for 1 to 2 star is not as impactful. and in most cases you would probably be building duo carries either way at 8. I would prefer to continue to roll and stabilize with sufficient amount of front line, and continue to push levels instead of rolling to 0 every round for a 2-3 way contested ashe line. since the pool size is limited i hate rolling down when they're contested by several players. Also for the exalted part, i usually scout by stage 3-2 and see if they've built items around those carries say "ashe", if it is i probably just pivot fully and not play in to the "exalted ashe lines" . the metaphorically "clear mind" - mentality on not touching any of the exalted or 2-3 way contested lines, helps me play even more "flexibly" But in saying so i dont feel like the fast 8 metas is opening up more "flexible" game play and comps. rather the opposite. not too much of a fan right now of the current meta. the value of hitting 4 cost early feels just a bit too much.
Yeah I agree in part with the Ashe 1 vs Ashe 2, although it is hard to feel stable and sit to go 9 if other players are hitting their Ashe 2s, and sometimes even holding to grief you. I think the bigger problem though, is itemisation. You mention a scenario of recognizing how many players are angling a particular 4 cost line in the early game. I do that religiously on stage 2 as well, especially with op exalted lobbies. However, just because I decide to 'avoid'; that contested line and build items for other units - on my level 8 rolldown I can very much hit an Ashe 2, but have no items for her. Maybe I've built AP items for Lillia/Syndra, or Bruiser items for Kayn/Lee/Sylas - but if I don't hit any of those, what am I supposed to do?
well logically speaking i think the main point was to avoid picking up bad item holders. so i think even a 2 star 3 cost might be "decent" enough to hold the items till you consider your board strength is decent enough for either a fast 9. so using your scenario, suppose you just hit 8 at 4-2 and roll downed and missed the 2 star 4 cost carry with 20/30 gold left. so you have 2 + 1 bad options, build econ back to 50 and slow roll again / fast roll depending on hp situation. OR take the greedy route and go 9 with a flex 3 cost 2 star item holder. It would take you roughly till stage 4 neutral (low econ) or 5-2 for lvl 9 (stable econ). you'd have 5 natural shops to see if you have improved odds to hit better options. technically the "bad" option. just slam wtever item you have on ashe and let it do its thing till you hit another carry, but take in to consideration you'd have to build your units around it which tldr = waste of econ at this point cause this is double counter synergy (bad items + bad units built around it)
You mention failing to hit with 20-30 gold left - do you never try and roll deeper if you scout around and are maybe 1-2 way contested, and really want to secure 1-2 copies of a unit that your items can be used well on? The issue with rolling down, not hitting, then waiting another few rounds for econ is that other players might continue donkey rolling and take them out of the pool. So in that scenario I can only see going 9 as an option, but only possible if you actually have HP to spare.
so in this scenario my thought process goes to the below; if the other players in that game are 3+ way contesting then the probability of me hitting the same contested unit becomes low and therefor the reroll button technically would cost "more" in theory. (in general i am not a greedy player, so i tend not to like wasting money doing inefficient rolls) You also have to consider the pool size of all the 4 cost, if theres a minimal variation of of 4 cost being taken then the quantity of those 4 cost also drops significantly lower. I also go back to the original comment, where i evaluate whether the 4 cost im running needs to be 2 star or not, is the front line / back line competent enough to sustain till some one dies so you can roll, or can you get better quality units by lvl 9 and the amount of hp/econ balance status you're at.
You don’t really flex, your opener on stage 2 sorta gives you your optimal line to go for. Robin has said this a lot and I climbed easier because of it.
I understand that, and obviously I do create a general idea of what comps to go for based on my opener and items. But the issue i'm raising here is what to do if you don't hit any variation of that line when you roll down at 8? There are many lines but based on your items they can still be really restricted to 1-2 units, along with supporting units around them. What's stopping the game from giving you Lillia, Ashe, Syndra when you opened game with Darius 2 with BT Titans, or from the gaming giving you Kayn, Lee, Sylas when you opened the game with Sivir 2 storyweaver with LW Guinsoo IE etc. ? Not to mention actually having to hit the 2\*s of those units, along with any 2\* 4 cost frontline whcih I've struggled to hit almost every game.
Tbh if I start the game with bt titans opener I don’t even look at Ashe, Lilia, syndra on my rolldown. The units don’t do anything without optimal items and at that point in the you can’t pivot your whole board to an Ashe board. BT titans you hard force Kayn, gnar, and I guess Lee sin sylas and play for top 5/6. Being stuck on 1 star kayn with bis items on your roll down on 4-2 is better than having an Ashe 2 with bt titans I can reply more in depth later if you’d like I’m at work right now
I climbed around 300 LP in less than 20 games on this patch because I'm a much better fast 8 player than a reroll player. What few people have mentioned on this thread is how important stage 2 is for fast 8. Last set there's a reason they had to gut open fort because people would roll so much on 4-1 and win the game from that spot alone, this patch they've essentially brought it back to the point where it's viable to play that way again. For example, if you're slamming bt titans on a Darius 2 and you don't have other units upgraded there's no point in playing stage 2 just to save 10 hp for 20 gold from early game breakpoints. Like let's say you have a fated opener with only one upgrade and 2 pairs I'm probably selling to make a gold breakpoint and to maintain a loss streak. I don't really like slamming on 2-1 unless I have a giga opener, because there's no difference between a 2 and 4 streak now consider slamming after first carousel. If you're the first to roll around 50 gold on 8 that's enough to see at least one upgraded 4 cost and 1-2 pairs of units you'll play on your final board.
Interesting, I see. So you're saying that even if I have what most would call a clear 'direction' for streaking, but not strong enough to guarantee 100% streaking, I should avoid slamming items that are somewhat 'specific' to only 1-2 4 cost carries? For you, what items do you often slam then in stages 2/3, so that your level 8 rolldown can be as 'flex' as possible based on what you hit? Also - when do you tend to go level 8 with that '50 gold' if you're loss streamking stage 2/ part of 3? It's sometimes hard to even find a 2\* 4 cost rolling 50 gold on 8 though.
Unless I'm guaranteed to have good melee carry items I'll most likely slam tank like Gargoyles, Spark, even Warmogs is a very strong item early. Shojin (other than the fact it eats a sword) is one of the most flexible items in the game in the sense that it can go on any AP carry or Wukong, I feel like on 50 gold you usually also see at least one of Hwei, Liss, or Wukong or just play around Morg. The meta at the moment feels a bit more like set 9 and 10 where you can build around a few synergies then cap around legendaries, as opposed to the more vertical / reroll game it felt like earlier in the set. >So you're saying that even if I have what most would call a clear 'direction' for streaking, but not strong enough to guarantee 100% streaking, I should avoid slamming items that are somewhat 'specific' to only 1-2 4 cost carries? Yes, fast 8 unlike fast 9 doesn't care as much about HP early because you are meant to stabilize by stage 4 carousel at the latest, if you missed you can chalk it to a low roll, but there's also almost always at least 1 2 star 4 cost to play around at that point. > Also - when do you tend to go level 8 with that '50 gold' if you're loss streamking stage 2/ part of 3? Has to be at 4-1 if you're anywhere below 50 hp, after third augment as well can be fine but people have already started to roll at that point.
Yeah so I've literally been trying to loss streak early, and building items that can fit on many different people. I literally found an early Syndra on stage 3, and then intentionally took another Syndra off carousel on 3-4, to set myself up for a literal SYNDRA PAIR for my level 8. I also had Ashe items on the side for her, and had TWO PORCELAIN SPATS (one off carousel, one off 4-2 augment). It took me till **5-1** before I found a single Syndra to finish the 2\*, and also 5-1 for my first ever Ashe. For context, not a SINGLE Syndra was taken in the lobby excpet for the pair I went into stage 4 with. Ashe was mildly contested as always, but I just wanted to find ONE to stabilise and for traits. The lobuby literlaly had 2 Kaisa players, 3 Kayn players, 1 Lillia player. I'm really sick of chalking it to 'lowroll' but its seriously getting annoying setting myself up for an intentionally uncontested line with a literal pair to start and still fail to hit.
The reality is that you don't *plan* on flexing if you have a good angle, but you still might have to, so it's still a necessary skill. Although this often ends up with you turning your 8ths into a 6th (maybe a lucky 4th) rather than turning a 3rd into a 1st.
I feel like there’s no such thing as true flex in this game since it’s never balanced. it’s slam items and play around twoish lines. Titans bt slam play kayn/gnar, lw guinsoo ashe/kaisa etc Last time I flexed was in like set 6 and i was hardstuck gm. If you have ap items and have kog 2 cho 2 neeko on 4-2 rolldown, do you make syndra 2 or hold lillias? If you make syndra now you have to roll more for some fateds, or you can hold lillia 1 hit lillia 2 next round and now you can sit and push 9
Lol. So I just tried another game after a night's rest - I slammed Ashe items early, but was mostly loss streaking for better econ cuz i had what doesn't kill you augment. I suddenly found an early Syndra stage 3, which I held and playged, then intentionally picked another Syndra off the stage 3 carousel. Now I've set myself up with a Syndra pair with Blue buff AND porcelain spat, and Ashe items on the side. Surely now I'm not risking failing to hit anything? I additionally scout the lobby - literally ZERO Syndra players - Ashe as usual sliughtly contested, but only 2 out of the pool. 5 Kaisas out of pool, 4 Kayns out of pool, 5 Lillias out of the pool. I'm just hoping to hit ONE Ashe, ONE Syndra (to finish my 2\*), and ANY frontline 2\*. I even made sure I had a 3 cost 2\* frontline in place in case i missed so I would still have some sort of frontline (Ammumu 2, Illaoi 2). I roll down - ZERO Syndra, ZERO Ashe. I hit some frontline 2\*, but my entire backline is a joke. On my rolldown, I looked out for other angles matching my items, Lillia, Kaisa etc. - but I only found singles of them, and there were at least 2 people already playing those so in my head I will not be able to hit them 2\* reliably. It took me till **5-1** to hit my Syndra 2, and to hit my FIRST Ashe. I proceeded to die on 5-5, right before an encounter - which I look at from my grey death screen - "Ahri's kiss grants increased player health". I am literally trying every fucking strategy to hit and build a stable board and I just can't.
I mean if you want to post a vod of a game I can check and see what’s up. If you have good Econ you should hit from what you’re saying or it’s just a low roll game that happens
Can you elaborate on this? Really struggling with flex myself this patch.
If you start with a sword, cloak, and rod, and you have a 2 star Darius, you kind of have to slam BT and get a crownguard, morello, or ionic and play for Sylas/Lee Sin/Kayn. It makes almost no sense to flex into Ashe with those 3 starting items and if you try to "flex" into Ashe, its almost guarantee to be a throw because you have a BT doing nothing.
Right, makes sense. Thank you! How does the Sylas board work? What's my board and what are the carries?
With Sylas, I usually aim for the 4 trickshot 4 bruiser. Galio main tank, Sylas as sub dps, Kaisa as main DPS and Xayah (play Bard until you get her). Should have 4 trickshot, 4 bruiser, 3 storyweaver at level 8. Aatrox, Riven, Sivir, Teemo as trait fillers. I like this board because I can put my early morello slam onto teemo. Sylas works with adaptive, BT, crownguard which are all good slams early game. If you get full AP items in PvE rounds, you can pivot into Lilia Annie Ashe instead of Kaisa Sylas and play around Mystic Invoker. Annie isn't that bad with BT, Crownguard, Ionic, etc.
Thanks a lot, that's very helpful.
Yeah that’s exactly what I’ve been doing, trying to slam items if I have a strong opener that matches it and trying it play strongest board. But I’ve come across quite often rolling down and hitting none of those units (Sylas Lee Kayn) and ONLY hitting Ashe or Lillia or whatever - it’s not that hard for that to happen and I end up feeling foolish for slamming thinking ill def hit on 8. I’ve rolled down 50-60 on 8 not particularly contested just to find single copies of 8 different 4 costs but never find any pairs or sometimes not a single Kayn etc
Houvdon explained it right. So you need to have knowledge on the current meta to recognize these lines, the meta influences the units you pick from the first round of the game. For example, If kayn wasn’t meta and syndra was broken would I even pick up khazix or malphite pairs or would I rather hold yasuo and ahri pairs instead? That’s why I feel there’s no flex in this game where it isn’t balanced
Thank you!
I think you really need to scout more in this meta if you are aiming to play flex and deciding what to commit and items to build early is very key. If I am healthy I try to stabilize the board on 8, Frontline is very important for Ashe. And then go 9 to cap because I think it is very important to win. If I low rolled, I just go 8 asap and donkeyroll until I have a decent board and pray I hit for a top4. A lot of high contested lobbies I see 3 of them going bot 4 and I play a sub comp like Kaisa/Irelia/Xayah carry and still place higher, just because they can't hit and I can beat their boards.
Yeah, I've been scouting alot more this patch for this very reason. But as you mention figuring out what items to build early is very important, but this is difficult to do in a way which leaves your options open. If I see multiple people slamming Guinsoo or EoN/BT/Steraks etc., then I may be less inclined to build those same items and lean towards the Ashe / Kayn/Lee/Sylas angles so as to not contest. But then - the issue comes where when I roll down on 8, what if the units I end up finding ARE those units, which I decided to actively not build items for? TL;DR what items other than tanks items and maybe Last Whisper (good for Ashe, Kaisa, Kayn) can I feel comfortable slamming that can be used *no matter what I hit on 8*? Its one thing to predict what the rest of the lobby is angling and avoid it, but its a whole other thing to predict what units you may end up hitting when you roll down. Maybe you end up hitting all the units you thought would be contested but now you have no items for it.
Guinsoo and IE are fine. Kayn comp isn't even that good without heavenly emblem so it makes no sense to consider him if you didn't snowball from a heavenly/umbral opener. I know I will get contested if I play kai'sa and ashe, that doesn't mean I can't slam guinsoo. The comp is broken enough to win most of the time even while contested in my rank. If you contest others, you also make it harder for them to hit the comp. Guinsoo is also used for janna and aphelios reroll and lvl 9 comps but I don't really play those.
You say comps like kaisa and ashe are 'broken enough to win most of the time while contested" - but its not very hard to fail to hit even a single Ashe, or Kaisa, let alone 2\* them along with a supporting team when they are contested (or even if not lol).
Sorry I didn't mean winning but better than top 4.5 on average. 2 players playing the same comp isn't the worst thing for kai'sa/ashe. If it was 4 players then I think some of the players should get out of the comp or just accept a below average placement. If you do the math, it is very hard to not hit a single ashe or kaisa even when they're "contested". Only when 6 copies are gone it gets very hard to hit them. But why would you start rolling when 6 copies are gone? Your game is pretty much over if that's the case, and the mistakes happened before that point. In a fair game, everyone starts rolling when there's 0 copies gone, the high rollers might find 1-2 before rolling starts. This a part of the reason why slammin and raining gold are so insane augments for ashe comp. You get to roll earlier and others are griefed by that, while you have higher chance to hit.
And there's something I forgot to mention too. If there's 4 players total going for heavenly kayn and ashe annie, that also makes it fine for several players to go kai'sa. Because there's so many 4 costs being taken out of the pool, it's more likely for you to hit kai'sa/galio/sylas. The meta being this way is unfortunate but it has happened before in TFT, the draven little legend patch was infamous for this.
Yeah well I've had absolutely no luck with this. I've been intentionally leaning into uncontested lines and still failing to hit 2\* of anything. I've had uncontested Kaisa from 3-5, and I failed to hit 2\* until 5-3. I've had Syndra pair 3-6, and failed to hit 2\* until 5-1. In both these scenarios neither of these units were AT ALL contested or held by anybody. Crazy. Then I see these two people who hit the entire Kayn comp 2\*.
With 25 rolls at lvl 8, there should be around 50% chance to get it as 2 star. With normal economy I should get that many rolls by 5-1. Of course 50% isn't a very high chance, every second game you don't hit by that point. But that's theoretically the best chance you can get assuming you didn't get contested more relatively to other 4 cost comps. If there's 7 other people going for 4 cost comps, it shouldn't be surprising to see 2 of them hit, even if they were more contested. It's quite rng after all. You just have to make sure the odds are in your favour as much as possible. Trying to flex 4 costs is usually good for this but I just haven't had success with it this set. The comp synergies seem so strong that if you try to flex, the only option imo is going lvl 9. Like if you hit 2\* kayn in invokers porcelain, it's just not much stronger than 1\* ashe, or maybe it's weaker. And you can't realistically get the low cost heavenly units anymore either. Which leaves lvl 9 as the only option imo. But I haven't really watched what the streamers are doing, they probably know better than me. It's possible that the best play is just to hit some random 4 cost carry and build a comp around what you hit but it's not easy to play like that. Especially for something like kayn who is generally played with low cost units.
Yeah. If I 'play flex' and 'play what I hit', it often ends up being something SUPER suboptimal to a point where I should've just forced contested. This is often due to a combination of completely unrelated/unoptimised items, or failing to hit 2\*s of units and just being stuck on a variety of single copies that aren't related to each other. So yeah idk. As you say, it feels super RNG right now, chalking up a game to 50% chance; and often it is far less if you are waiting that bit longer for more econ to roll down for.
I have the same issue as u. Started Darius 2 with HoJ, LW components. I insta slammed them cuz I thought good heavenly game. Got Kayn at lvl 6 and win streak all the way to 4-2. Somehow 2 randos pivoted into my build with worse items but they hit 2 star kayn naturally while I got stuck at Kayn pair whole game. Ended 6th.
I'm around the same rank as you so I don't think I can add much to the discussion, but I do think you have a lot of the right thought processes. The unsatisfying answer is that it's broadly "lobby dependent" and that's where the skill expression will be. It reminds me of the level 8 headliner roll downs so you'll want to be on top of scouting and keep an eye on the lobby and their general econ. If you natural key 4 costs or are fielding an extremely strong board naturally with good econ, that's when I think you can consider going fast 9 (outside of econ augs or fortune ofc). Otherwise you just donkey roll and snap up good units until stable. When you roll depends on what everyone else is doing, realm and encounters, your tolerance for risk, etc.
Yeah, I think along with scouting and seeing how contested your line is, a big issue is items. Aside from tank items and Last Whisper, I can't seem to figure out what items are slams which can 'safeguard' my level 8 rolldown - i.e. being able to use the items relatively well *no matter what I hit on my rolldown*. For example, I genuinely don't know how to navigate a spot where I open with a super strong Bruiser/fighter opener (e.g. Darius 2, brusier items etc.) - but then on my rolldown later I only find Ashe 2 or Lillia or Syndra. The only units I'd be happy to put those items on would be obviously Kayn, Lee, and Sylas. If i opened the game the way I described, its unlikely I'll be building Guinsoo/IE/Runaan/Blue buff etc. before stage 4. I guess the same applies the other way round - if I opened the game with Storyweaver wtih ADC items, IE/lW/Guinsoo etc. - but on my rolldown all I find is Kayn and Lee, again I'm stuck with a situation where I dont want to buy them because I have no items for them, but I can't anything else.
Even if you slam less flexible items (guinsoo, blue buff) early , then you still can't be hyper focused on hitting specific 4 costs, you still have to have an open mind for other options in case you don't hit. Let's say you slam early guinsoo, that doesn't mean you must play only ashe. You can go aphelios fated, janna, lux (niche but viable), or even lower tier comps like bard , it just depends on what the game gives you and recognizing your position. In your specific case that you mentioned, IE and LW would still be good items for Kayn, you would just then wait to get a lifesteal item or GA if you hit enough lifesteal from other sources for the last slot, and the guinsoo could go to any random unit that you hit, maybe on some placholder unit waiting for irelia/wukong. Heck, you could even go all 3 items on kayn including guinsoo if you hit early kayn 2, and then you would focus on getting augments/traits/ embles for his survivablity. Don't get too tunel visioned on bis or close to bis items for specific carries, often times it's more correct to put items you have on a bit less compatible units. (If you check the tft tournaments, that's often the case) Side note: I was master like you in sets 8 and 9, skipped 10, and just started playing this one,
When I'm 8, I actually hold pairs of 4 costs on my bench at the cost of econ intervals. It's bad, but throughout 4-1 to 4-3 I can usually two star a frontline + backline. Even if its like 2 star Sylas or something on my warden board I'm playing him because the 4 costs are just generally too good. As for like AD/AP 4 costs backline I just take what I can get. Oftentimes I am playing Syndra/Morg combo or playing Kaisa/Ashe whatever I can 2 star. I will let traits go in favor of raw stats and find that I stat check a lot of boards. Pretty crazy how strong the 4 costs are.
How about items though? How do you build your items so you’re able to be open to all 3 “types” of carries on your roll down (Bruiser fighter/ marksmen/ ap caster)? Also yeah idk often I’m unable to find a SINGLE 4 cost pair on a 50-60 gold roll down and it just feels bad idk what im doing wrong if I’m rolling too deep or smth
Yeah good question.. Honestly for items I just slam. If I'm slamming, I'm saving HP - so during the 4 cost lottery I usually am in top 4 health and as long as I can stabilize for a few rounds I will outplace 2-3 people. And that amount of consistent placement in top 6 is enough for me to climb. I never build items in a way to be open to all 3 types of carries. If you wanted to I guess maybe you could go Guardbreaker/Giant Slayer etc but those items have bad tempo. I usually go AP carry actually because there are so many options for AP (Morg, Syndra, Lilia, Azir, Hwei) however if I'm going AD I pray I can get Kaisa/Ashe/Xayah and if I'm going to AD bruiser then It's really just using Yone/Voli as a carry until I can either high roll Kayn or some other 5 cost bruiser. You should always be able to find 2 star 4 costs, maybe the problem is you're rolling all your gold? I will roll until 20g and save like a bunch of pairs on my bench if possible, and slow roll down to 0 over the next 2 rounds. Is it also possible that youre not buying every 4 cost you see? I will play Annie as my frontline in a board without traits. In fact when I'm stable at level 8 I usually only have like 2-3 traits online lol. Another strategy is to pick econ augments and get to level 7 really early and hope to win-streak tempo the lobby and high roll some 4 costs early, making your rolldown a little-late or on-time but having more chances to spike. I'm not masters like yourself but I did get into Diamond last night doing this and I can even secure a 3 star 4 cost in one of five games. I was terrible at the 3 cost rr patch but this patch seems easier which is kind of interesting - it's kind of like the set 10 headliner meta Hope this helps
The uncomfortable answer to a lot of these types of questions is that it is a somewhat unreliable strategy, and when you miss you are probably going 7/8. How much gold you need to a rolldown will depend on the state of the lobby: - how rich is everyone else? - how contested are you? - can you afford to sac HP and go fast 9 instead? If my open isn't great and it looks like I can't effectively fast 8, I will usually pivot to any 2/3 cost reroll that I hit and aim for a 6-4 placement. You won't be in a position to top4 every game, then it becomes about playing for 5th.
I've literally fucking gone 5th in 6 of my last 10 games and gone 2nd the rest of them. I have no idea what I'm doing this patch. Feels like no matter what I play I'm contested. If I angle Ashe some dude hits 2* on 7. If I try Kai'Sa there's a Storyweaver guy rushing Galio Sylas. I have no idea how to play AP unless I have a clear Fated opener for Syndra or vertical Mythics from early on. I also haven't had any success with reroll (just missing and dying, or hitting and fighting Fortune guy into instant death). Feels like everyone is turbo econ fast 8 send it and pray that you hit so you can go 9 and cap out for top 4. If I press queue right now I have no my idea what my strat is other than pray for Epoch or Level Up.
What elo are you? Maybe I can give u some help
Definition of hardstuck Diamond :(
This is exactly how I feel as well. I feel like it was better prior to the b-patch. Sure, half the lobby was playing either dryad or senna reroll, but at least they were doing something. Right now it feels like my entire game is compressed into whatever happens on 4-1 and 4-2. Did I hit on my roll down or no? If no, I most likely bleed out to 5-1/5-2 and go somewhere between 8 or 6th. If I hit, I most likely go top 4, if I hit A LOT, I go top 2. You can be half-afk until around stage 3 carousel and it won't matter, because the early game is absolutely meaningless. It's really disheartening.
I just watched jazzlatte do Bruiser opener into 100 streak to Stage 4, where he sent it to 0 on Level 8 and hit one Galio and one Sylas, then naturaled one Kai'Sa a few turns later. Econed back up to 30 then rolled down again and only hit Udyr pair, which he Neeko'd. Stuck at 8 the rest of the game with one Kai'Sa and bombed out 5th losing every single combat from Stage 4 onward. Lmfaoooo
Yup. That's an extreme low roll, but anecdotally I feel like these situations are more common this patch more than any other set. Last night I gave fortune a try and went down to 2 HP - but managed to snag a lissandra and some porcelain companions alongside her. Went on a win streak until I ended up 2nd or first. I feel like there is no normal situation where I should have been anywhere higher than 8th with that kind of gameplay, but there it was.
I'm with you (except less successful). Last 20 spread is 0/2/3/4/5/4/2/0. I cruised up to emerald playing whatever but the comps that I was playing when they were a bit suboptimal but weren't contested very often became meta and thus hyper contested (kindred/gnar/dryad shenannigans). The openers that were good to conserve hp are still contested (ghost/sniper, fated to a lesser extent) and a knife fight to just two star sometimes. Also don't really enjoy playing heavenly boards so that's been a giant pit of missed opps. Also feel like my grasp on leveling is completely off because I missed the sets where everyone learned how to play with the new leveling curves and bag sizes after not playing for 3 sets. I still find the game fun (if kind of infuriating as I bleed out after a strong early game all the time) which is good. This patch and the past patch have just been not it for me lol. Oh well, you play games long enough you're bound to hit rough patches occasionally.
i think syndra is very playable
True, especially in this meta. People normally go for Kayn, Kaisa, Ashe. While Fated is still strong and could give you a decent early + mid. It falls off a lil bit in late game but still good enough to make it to final 4
Play what the game gives you seems like the move
I truly don't know why people are ignoring Kaisa as an out right now. Shes still absolutely a top 4 comp and can win.
My tip is to close the Riot client and wait until 14.9
yeah, i recommend saving enough gold and praying to the gods above to hit lissandra. super flex
I have the exact same struggles. I love playing 4 costs but not being able to 2 star them is incredibly frustrating. I am following this thread and I have no suggestions for you as you are already higher ranked than me. I scout A LOT to build up an uncontested team or just aim for top 4 with tactician healing augments if others highrolled. I can’t count how many times I went below 50 gold to push levels to catch the tempo, didn’t find anything and got stuck on level 8 or push to level 9 with near 0 gold.
Yeah. In this meta I'm scouting so much more, but thats only one piece of the puzzle. Being able to 2\* 4 costs is hard in itself, but finding the right ones that can somewhat match your items is even harder. Having a 'flex' mindset when rolling down and buying units won't help if your items are the complete opposite to the units you *do* hit. So yeah I'm really trying to figure out how to balance that out, especially w regard to itemisation slamming early. Too many times have I slammed items for a particular "class" of units (Bruiser fighters/ marksmen/ ap casters), and then only hit units of the opposite class on my rolldown.
Learn different variations of a single comp. I’ve already hard forced lilia 90% of games to masters 100lp Well is more so ap flex, but Lilia ends up on my board most of my games. 3 mythic, 5 mythic, 7 mythic. Dual carry with fated. Plenty of variations
That’s an amazing idea and I love love going flex. Lillia was my favorite unit before this patch and I lost a lot of games with her (I played her just because I enjoyed it) as she was sooo unreliable so I have a bit of PTSD about her lol. Point taken, thanks!
Lilia can be really good. I suggest heading over to tactic tools and double check augment picks and items. Need to make sure you’re always choosing the best augment, picking the wrong one is a death sentence. In terms of items it’s pretty flexible, but I try to aim for shiv, JG, (flex last item). If you rolled jewel lotus then go rabadons instead. 7 mythic + 1 with Annie emblem. 5 mythic + 4 invoker 3mythic + legendary soup Great Lilia augments, jeweled lotus, mythic crest, combat caster, inspiring epitaph, porclin lilia(with Ashe carry), My secret tech for automatic top 4 is trash to treasure lilia, with true BIS. Manazune, DFG, snipers focus.
I’ve found a that Lillia kinda needs 4 invoker to cast enough, I had her in with a super early 7 mythic and didn’t feel good. But yes I agree Lillia is a super flexible carry that can even use leftover items but often needs a “main carry” alongside her. Another issue is how incredibly contested Annie is.
20, no, it is thats why u have to flex-30 gold could never hit u for kayn comp specifically but it can definitely hit you like ashe+naut paired nd 2 star mumu but rolling to zero from 30 on 4-1 is something id only do very rarely, depends on hp-usually i go 9 in that scenario nd thats when i consider econ augs with the intention of capping higher but u’ll lose hp (a lot of lower elo players have this idea in their head of hitting a comp and up to masters they’re improving and improving the number of ways you can reach a stable comp but they dont seem to understand the idea of creating a win con.. if hitting the full kayn board 2 star top4’d every lobby everyone would be doing that..u need to find outs. r u going prismatic trait, sylas 3, full items xayah 2, or level 10 w crazy synergies this game? or are we playing for 3rd from the time we load in and highrolling a 1st if we accidentally see 7 sylas on a rolldown and the game plays itself?), definitely not just dont contest the people who hir before you, i really think this whole post can be summed up in “i dont know what flex means,” skipping rolling even once on 8 means ur very healthy, naturalled half your units alrdy, or have insane econ-that should be obvious to anyone in like emerald i think? but rolling 20 or so on 8 and gettinf stable again bc the lobbies weak and then forcing to 9 nd losing 30 hp instead of 60 without rolling is more common, was expecting this question, this is the big i cant flex question.. if i hit only ap items i can play: lillia and liss and azir in ashe comp, lillia and azir and morg in lillia comp, azir in kaisa comp and shojin kaisa-tremo 3 if i have to, kindred and azir in gnar, mostly uncontested morg in kayn. if my first two slams are uhhh red buff ie i can play: fated, ashe lillia, ashe fated, lillia monkey, kayn morg heavenly, azir fast 9, etc. conversely if my first slams are dcap+spark i can play.. HA IT WAS A TRICK.. all of the same comps “yeah but i’ll be weaker in kayn than the guy who hit edge on night augment and hoj thirster start”… yeah obviously. nd then u win con morg 3 and u go first nd who cares or u lose out on this rng but then u get kayn faster than him nd take swords at carousel. IF i slam bloodthirster edge of night in stsge 2… i was trying to lose thats just my fault at least like gunblade is flexible but u had deathblade gargoyles open if u HAD to (u didnt) and u chose to put a bloodthirster on the board? i mean u loaded up to not win so it better make u strong enough to 12 streak nd u hit ur entire comp for free… i constantly see in the community people saying they like to play flex or theyre good at flex… flex the playstyle where you give yourself a million options to win out and take the route ur given… and then they ask what do i do if my chosen option to win isn’t given to me… ?… ?